From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #522 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, December 23 1998 Volume 03 : Number 522 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: P. Henry PENs (long) ["Mark T. Klempner" ] P. Henry PENs (long) ["Mark T. Klempner" ] Re: Re : harsh words (NJC) [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re[4]: NJC Apology/My Country [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Fame & Talent (Was P. Henry PENs) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: JMDL Digest V3 #521 [Debra Kaufman ] Re[2]: Brownies (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Chronological Joni (Was: Re: JMDL Digest V3 #521) [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Re[2]: Brownies (NJC) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re[4]: Brownies (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Introduction and Tape [Jennifer Elizabeth Mc Call ] you guys... *S* ["P. Henry" ] Re: you guys... *S* [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re[2]: you guys... *S* [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Re[2]: you guys... *S* [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: (NJC) Irresponsible REPs, etc. [MHart16164@aol.com] Age of Little Drummer Person? (NJC) [Janet Hess ] Re: (NJC) Irresponsible REPs, etc. ["Kakki" ] RE: you guys... *S* ["Wally Kairuz" ] ON THE OTHER HAND...njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Merry Christmas ... (oh yeah, NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] The Painted iD January Shows ["Peter Holmstedt" ] Re: you guys... *S* [catman ] Re: (NJC) Irresponsible REPs, etc. [IVPAUL42@aol.com] car thieves and tape sharks, what happened to this place? [Bounced Messag] Re: R & D (N real JC!) [Bounced Message ] [none] [Bounced Message ] Re: you guys... *S* [Les Irvin ] Re: Re: Introduction + Tape [Marilune@aol.com] CBC-TV Version of Special [Wally Breese ] Re: (NJC) Irresponsible REPs, etc. ["Kakki" ] Re: you guys... *S* (NJC) [Scott Price ] Year end awards, my health, & the holidays [Wally Breese Subject: Re: P. Henry PENs (long) On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Kakki wrote: > Mark in Chapel Hill wrote: > > >First of all, there's the name dropping taboo. Name dropping is simply in > >bad taste. > > Yes, that is generally true in everyday social interactions with people, but > this *is* "The Joni Mitchell Discussion List" and all who arrive here come > to share some thought about Joni. > > > >To bring up the name of a famous person, or a person more > >famous than yourself, and make a connection between that person and > >yourself, so as to pull on the famous person's prestige and celebrity to > >increase your own status or prestige is tacky. > > First off, I ask Pat to excuse me for referring to him on the list like he > is not even here reading all this. But, to share my thoughts on all this,> The comments I was making in this last post were general--not about Pat. Pat and I came to an understanding very quickly, and *he* never had a problem with the skeptical attitude with which I greeted some of his initial assertions. Pat is bringing up the name of the very person who this list is about. I > took his posts to be of a sharing nature and not to increase his own > prestige. How could he be increasing his own prestige anyway? We don't > know him or have any involvement with his life. He is an email address to > us, that is all, at this point. What could he possibly hope to gain in real > terms from trying to garner some kind of favor with us? Again, NOT about Pat: I see the net as a place that is more prone to people messing with our minds in regards to status/prestige stuff. You're right: it doesn't make sense in certain ways. But the net presents a wonderful opportunity for people to present themselves as something other than what they are. Not that I buy into the status bs, but I find it impossible to get away from, as much as I would like to. Because we all love Joni here, it would be possible for anyone to show up and start claiming special connections with Joni in order to get special attention, who knows why? Why have people stalked Joni? Sorry to bring up something so negative, but the net is a strange place in the sense that anyone can show up, and you can't see them, and you can't really know if who they are is who they claim to be. Joni has a powerful effect on people, and the net is a powerful un-inhibitor. Maybe I sound paranoid here, but after living in LA for ten years, and having been in the music business for over twenty--under another name, BTW)--I've seen some pretty strange things. The only selfish > thing I see that he is getting out of it is to have a forum to share some > wonderful memories with. It's the same thing that most of us get out of > being here. Most have us have all expressed numerous times here how > grateful we are to have this forum because usually there is no one in our > day-to-day life who/whom shares our enthusiasm with Joni Mitchell, or even > music, for that matter. Could it not be that Pat has such wonderful > memories that he wants an outlet for sharing them? He probably does not > have the same real life opportunity to share these stories living on an > island off Japan. I think the net presents wonderful opportunities, like what you're describing. That's the great potential of the net and newsgroups like this. > > I believe this in principal, but where it gets more complicated for me is > that I don't > >believe in celebrity. I don't think famous people are any different from > >me or you. We are all human, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, > >our devils and angels. I am not impressed by fame or famous people. > > > Of course, and no healthy person should be impressed by fame or famous > people alone. And it's always wise to remember that well-known people are > totally human and just like the rest of us. But the most humble and flawed > among us can have a gift in them which inspires people. That's who Joni is > to me. > > >For that reason I am often tempted to refer to famous people that I know > >or have known, not to name drop but because I believe it doesn't matter, > >shouldn't matter. But it does matter. So I try to avoid what could be > >seen as name dropping, even though I am uneasy with the process of > >purposely avoiding the mention of famous people in order to *not* appear > >to be name dropping. > > > Again, I think we would all agree with this in theory but the forum here is, > by its very nature, a place to tell stories about our favorite famous > person. So we're in harmony, Kakki. As Pat would say, *S*. > >I enjoy PENS that feel like they're just a sharing of experience with no > >agenda of self-aggrandizement. If I feel like what the person is > >essentially doing amounts to name dropping, I get turned off even if the > >story is interesting. > > > And I feel uneasy about your use of this term "PENS" to reduce someone's > recitation of personal memories into some kind of clinical, > "anthropological" phenomena, complete with a set of empirical standards and > rules. PEN is just another acronym to me (personal experience narrative). Because I am, among other things, a folklorist and oral historian, I have studied PENs, and find them very interesting. To me, such study is the opposite of reducing someone's shared memories, it actually makes them bigger, cause I've come to understand PENs so much more deeply: why people tell stories, how they tell them, what's behind the lines, etc. etc. Joni is a great storyteller, and I get a lot more out of her stories now that I've studied oral history theoretical stuff. But this is just my own thing, and I can understand if others are not interested. And if PEN is an acronym that makes you uncomfortable, I don't have to use it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 05:00:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Mark T. Klempner" Subject: P. Henry PENs (long) Mark in Chapel Hill wrote: > where it gets more complicated for me is that I don't > believe in celebrity. I don't think famous people are any different >from me or you. We are all human, we all have our strengths and >weaknesses, our devils and angels. I am not impressed by fame or famous >people. Lori in San Antonio wrote: Okay, Mark, I'll accept that you believe this. But here we all are, participating in the Joni Mitchell Discussion List. We explore Joni's (and our own) strengths and weaknesses here, and we have a blast doing so. And we wouldn't be here at all if it were not for the FAME of Joni Mitchell. We don't have to be impressed by it, but can anyone honestly deny that she is different from the rest of us? Mark in Chapel Hill writes: Yes. I don't see Joni as being in one universe and the rest of us being in another. I don't see her as The Goddess and the rest of us as earthlings, or whatever, as much as I love her. We're all here, we're all human. What I love about Joni isn't her FAME. I would love Joni whether she was famous or not, and I would love her music whether it was listened to or not by other people. A few posts back, I mentioned John Bucchino, who lent me a tape of Joni performing back in the 60s. I described John as a great songwriter. John is not famous. Probably few if any people on the list have heard of him. But to me, some of his songs are "classic," like, he's written at least one masterpiece that should have sold 60,000,000 copies and been recorded 98 times. But John's never had a major label deal, all his releases have been homemade on his own label, and sold very sparsely. It doesn't matter to me: he's a great songwriter. One thing being famous would do for John is make more people aware of him. If he had a major label promoting his work, if they played his stuff on the radio, if it got recorded by some major artists, then you would know about him. That would be nice, but it wouldn't make his music better or worse. One thing I've always appreciated about Joni is that she has adhered to this principal: she sees beyond fame. She "in fame," but not "of fame," the way Christians are supposed to be in the world but not of it. For instance, when Laura Nyro's career dwindled and the big record companies weren't interested in her anymore, Joni continued to talk about her in the same way as before, and continued to cite her as an influence. Lori wrote: People have to be different from the norm in order to become famous, and once they are famous, that difference is highlighted even more brightly. Mark writes: This I really don't agree with. Van Gogh was never famous during his lifetime--was he "the norm." Many people are famous who are expressing "the norm"--whatever that is. That's what Joni's talking about with the "genuine junkfood." The A&R guys in the music biz search for performers who fit the description as being the kind of artist who will sell product. They then make said person famous. I simply see fame and talent as two very different things. Another example is David Lasley. Have you ever heard of him? Probably not. He's one of the greatest singer/songwriters I have ever heard or seen. Also a fascinating and amazing person. His talent is humongous; his fame almost non-existent. He is so different from the norm that the record companies never knew what to do with him. Anyway, I've gone on and on because I find this subject interesting. I loved your political comments BTW. I'm with you 100%. I've got to pack and drive to NY now. My best to all of you-- Mark in Chapel Hill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 06:50:53 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: Re : harsh words (NJC) In a message dated 12/22/98 5:44:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, luvart@snet.net writes: << I'm glad there isn't another Heather ....oops, is there??? >> oh for god sakes....as if there COULD be another heather. you my deary dear are one in a million! phew! love ric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:40:53 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: NJC Apology/My Country At 09:09 AM 12/22/1998 -0500, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote: > Here's a crazy idea... We're connected, via phone, via computer, we can all debate and vote electronically or by 800 number, we don't NEED these Ying-yangs in DC to spend our money and make self-serving decisions on OUR behalf... Then Diana responded: I wish I could look at humankind with as much optimism and faith as Bob does. I used to believe in "the ideal" but now it's old cynical me. A total democracy won't work either. Hell, we can't get anyone to vote! Even my daughter, who voices her complaints and gets an earful from her mom about civic responsibility, won't register to vote. I can honestly say that in my college classes there were very few students who voted, even when there was a very heated city vote on human dignity. So.. I don't think that this apathy will end. Americans don't want to have to *think*. So lazy.. So sad. Diana, resident cynic Now Bob writes back: Diana, I understand where you're coming from, but again I believe that it's not a "people" problem, it's a "process" problem. Sure, there's a certain percentage of people who are going to be apathetic and mentally disturbed and on crack that we don't WANT to have voting, but the vast majority are not turned off because of their apathy but rather a sense of apathetic frustration of a futile system that stopped working a while ago. Rather than electing others to take PAC money and deal with lobbyists and worry only about the next election and staying in office, our voting would be DIRECTLY on the issues. Just imagine how much LESS we'd pay in income taxes if we didn't have to fund these bozos... Hey, I'm as cynical as the next guy, probably even more so, but it doesn't mean I've lost my faith and my belief that this creative experiment we call America can get better... Bob M. in SC NP: Aliigator Records Christmas Collection, "Merry, Merry, Christmas by Koko Taylor (who I also had the pleasure of seeing this year) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:11:03 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Fame & Talent (Was P. Henry PENs) Mark wrote: I simply see fame and talent as two very different things. Another example is David Lasley. Have you ever heard of him? Probably not. He's one of the greatest singer/songwriters I have ever heard or seen. Also a fascinating and amazing person. His talent is humongous; his fame almost non-existent. He is so different from the norm that the record companies never knew what to do with him. Anyway, I've gone on and on because I find this subject interesting. I loved your political comments BTW. I'm with you 100%. I've got to pack and drive to NY now. My best to all of you-- Mark in Chapel Hill Mark, I'd bet that everyone is also on board with you on the separation of fame & talent. I haven't heard of David Lasley, but I also take extreme pleasure in turning on other folks/music fans to obscure artists & songs, as do the other on the list I'm sure. I saw a pretty good handful of musicians this year, and while I enjoyed the shows I was never compelled to meet them & tell them what their work has meant to my life like I was with Joni. There are people who are famous & talented, there are famous people with no talent, and there are talented people who aren't famous, so the two are by definition mutually exclusive. Of course, then there are people like me who are neither famous nor talented ;~D To make it more confusing, there are people who are attracted to those who are talented and people who are attracted by the fame. Seeing as how Joni is pretty far down the list in the fame department (in general, obviously, not list-wide), I'd bet that between 99 and 100 per cent of us would say we're drawn by the talent. The fact that she is famous makes it better in that she has access to resources that allow her more broad exposure, but by the same token it makes it worse in that she herself admitted that she would love to play small clubs again but she's too 'big' to do that. (I still hold fast to the dream of seeing her in an intimate setting). Anyway, I'm not sure what my point is, I'm just rambling anyway. :-) Bob M in SC, where a white Christmas is a possibility for the first time since '63 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:19:48 -0500 From: Debra Kaufman Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V3 #521 Wowie-zowie. I've been so busy I haven't been reading the lists for months (except for an occasional peek). When I came back this week, how the sparks have flown! Everything from happy holidays to burning the man with the Joni stories to what's to become of Our Man Flynt (Clinton). The ever-dynamic list. Am I wrong or has there been more hostility lately? On another subject: Has anyone ever taken a period of time and listened to Joni's albums straight through chronologically? I wonder how many hours it would take. It's something I'd like to do, a kind of scroll through the recent times as we enter the last year of the last millenium. Ciao and best wishes to you all, DK ******************************************************************* "I'm stubborn as those garbage bags that time cannot decay; I'm junk but I'm still holding up this little wild bouquet. Democracy is coming ... to the USA." Leonard Cohen +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:17:21 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Brownies (NJC) Phyliss wrote: having worked for the company that makes Exlax for several years (I dont work there anymore) We actually did the brownie deal once. A guy we worked with had a habit of eating other peoples food out of the breakroom refrigerator. We left a nice plate of brownies for him in there, they disappeared. - -- Phyliss, whose favorite dessert is brownies! Phyliss, I bet they "reappeared" soon enough!! :>D As the unofficial "Refrigerator Magnate" here on the 3rd floor at FD, my problem is different. With people changing projects, layoffs, etc. we get stuff left in the fridge that turns stinky and toxic that nobody wants to touch, let alone steal & eat. Once a month I have to don my rubber gloves and dispose of the science experiments... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:48:57 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Chronological Joni (Was: Re: JMDL Digest V3 #521) I'll sometimes do this with a few of Joni's albums that sound alike, like Blue and then For The Roses then Court and Spark or Hejira and then DJRD. If you're saluting your favorite part of Joni's career it can be a lot of fun! Happy holidays! Mark At 10:19 AM -0500 12/23/98, Debra Kaufman wrote: > On another subject: Has anyone ever taken a period of time and listened to > Joni's albums straight through chronologically? I wonder how many hours it > would take. It's something I'd like to do, a kind of scroll through the > recent times as we enter the last year of the last millenium. ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:57:28 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: : NJC Apology/My Country - ---------- > From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com > To: joni@smoe.org; Diana Duncan > Subject: Re[4]: NJC Apology/My Country > Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 8:40 AM > > > > > > At 09:09 AM 12/22/1998 -0500, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com wrote: > > Here's a crazy idea... We're connected, via phone, via > computer, we can all debate and vote electronically or by 800 number, we > don't NEED these Ying-yangs in DC to spend our money and make self-serving > decisions on OUR behalf... I like your idea, with the direction politics is going, there may come a change. Gee "what if" we get back to basics! That the people that represent us aren't making a career out of it. That they get paid minimum wage and they only get paid for a 20 hour week (That would deplete the national debt!). That the people that represent us aren't the self serving rich. All media must allow only so much free time for candidates to speak period no time bought. Telephones & computers are a good way to communicate. Candidates are each given X amount of dollars for campaigning (by there party) period there is a dollar limit. That senators & congressmen are only allowed 2 terms. That senators & Congressmen that have ideas to push must go back to the people they represent & get an OK before pushing bills through the system. That the people have the final vote on every decision that the government wants to make on behalf of our interests. Set up electronic voting booths in every Convenient store. Each voter has a designated store to go to. HMMMM???? Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:01:15 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Brownies (NJC) - ---------- > From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com > To: JMDL ; Phyliss Ward > Subject: Re[2]: Brownies (NJC) > Date: Wednesday, December 23, 1998 9:17 AM > > > As the unofficial "Refrigerator Magnate" here on the 3rd floor at FD, > my problem is different. With people changing projects, layoffs, etc. > we get stuff left in the fridge that turns stinky and toxic that > nobody wants to touch, let alone steal & eat. Once a month I have to > don my rubber gloves and dispose of the science experiments... > > Bob Sounds like my mother-in-law's fridge! Couldn't you send the stuff off to labs-there may be cures in there for various diseases! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:10:22 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[4]: Brownies (NJC) Sounds like my mother-in-law's fridge! Couldn't you send the stuff off to labs-there may be cures in there for various diseases! Marilyn Marilyn, That would work, but how could you transport the goo? It would eat through whatever container you put it in... :>D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:35:33 -0500 (EST) From: Jennifer Elizabeth Mc Call Subject: Re: Introduction and Tape Hi! It's realy nice to find more young people that are into Joni! I'm 18 years old, and am a student at the University of Michigan. My story is similar to yours, but I got into Joni becuase of my mom. I'm sorry, i can't help you with getting the tape, but I wish you luck. I totally understand your dream to see Joni, I had it too (this summer I went to the "Day in the Garden" and saw her! I was the best moment of my life!!!!!). Welcome to the discussion list! - -Jennifer McCall "They talk like the know you, they don't know you" -Trouble Child, Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 16:36:14 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: you guys... *S* ok, I am writing in response to many who've written me individually... to my detractors I would say this: a saying my father used to quote went something like: "a liar never believes anybody and a thief always locks his doors", ie: one judges by their own yardstick... perhaps you suspect dishonesty in others because you yourself are deceptive or maybe you are surrounded by an inordinate number of liars! this would seem to be the case because, as you say, your "initial response had some element of bluff in it: (because you judged that) a complete fabricator would be exposed and slither away." gee, isn't it interesting that the way you deal with perceived dishonesty is by being dishonest yourself! get a life, would ya? I wouldn't know where to start to size up a 'complete fabricator'! you say something to me, I take you at your word. to all of you, including my 'critics', I would like to say that I think you're great... or, rather, because you are drawn, as I am, I know there is a greatness about you... Joni helped me see that about myself... and about all that were drawn to her... I think Joni is one of the greatest artists of this century... and I can't help that I met her and knew her anymore than I can help that I did NOT know JT, or Stills or Crosby... what would YOU do in my shoes? it happened... it was a LONG time ago but it happened... I've treasured these memories for more than 30 years and rarely run into another who could really appreciate them... I really just wanted to give you all a xmas gift of those recollections... a smile or two... something you could treasure also... if all I wanted was to gain for myself, I could go write a book and I bet it would sell, but then, that's part of the influence she had on me... that last story I gave you... about how the whole room busted out on the chorus of circle game... THAT'S what it's about... every person in that room felt like Joni was their personal friend, cause that's the way she was... (is) personal! several of you have pointed out how unpleasant it is to get all the bickering and I agree... that's why I think I'll stay out of the way and let things get back to the way they were because I can see it will never end with me sharing a story and then 5 or 6 people posting that I'm lying about this or that and me defending myself... who needs it! I don't mind and I can debate until the cows come home but, as I said, who needs it! certainly not you! I came in to make the list better not worse and the latter has happened so I'm history... not for my sake but for yours... if I write anymore I will send it individually to those who've written me expressing interest... and, as I said before, "perhaps someone is verifying what I've said at the source (Joni herself) and perhaps someday you'll hear about that" take care and hope santa is good to you... *S* pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:03:38 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: you guys... *S* In a message dated 12/23/98 11:39:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << every person in that room felt like Joni was their personal friend, cause that's the way she was... (is) personal! >> Pat, I hope you don't slip away into the dark, because, as you know, I am one of those who is enjoying your stories immensely. I don't think anyone could possible relate to your paragraph above unless they, themselves, had met Joni. As I mentioned to you in private email, I was one of those lucky ones who *did* meet her while she was touring and the first thing that struck me (well, ONE of the first things) was how much she put us at ease. She really does make you feel like a personal friend- someone you've known for years. And to all you grinches on this list, I say...BAH HUMBUG to YOU. Terry, really hoping to hear more ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:15:19 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: you guys... *S* In a message dated 12/23/98 11:39:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, badwolff@angelfire.com writes: << every person in that room felt like Joni was their personal friend, cause that's the way she was... (is) personal! >> Pat, I hope you don't slip away into the dark, because, as you know, I am one of those who is enjoying your stories immensely. I don't think anyone could possible relate to your paragraph above unless they, themselves, had met Joni. As I mentioned to you in private email, I was one of those lucky ones who *did* meet her while she was touring and the first thing that struck me (well, ONE of the first things) was how much she put us at ease. She really does make you feel like a personal friend- someone you've known for years. And to all you grinches on this list, I say...BAH HUMBUG to YOU. Terry, really hoping to hear more Terry, I too would love to hear more from Pat and told him so originally - he seems to be locked in some kind of defensive mode rather than sharing his stories - look at his last post, he goes on and on waxing philosophically about the nature of liars. Who cares about that with respect to what he can tell us about his experiences? I told him that I can't understand why someone would not want to share that sense of joy (which you & I both also experienced) with a group like this. I'm not being a Grinch, rather I'm just saying 'if you've got something to share, share it and screw the naysayers. If not, then stop the baiting & bluffing. It's like a bratty kid on the playground who keeps threatening to take his ball & go home if you don't play by his rules... Bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:52:13 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: you guys... *S* In a message dated 12/23/98 2:43:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << I'm not being a Grinch, rather I'm just saying 'if you've got something to share, share it and screw the naysayers. If not, then stop the baiting & bluffing. >> Bob, I'd imagine I'd be in a defensive mode, too, if after one single post, felt attacked by people! C'mon Pat- tell us some more! Terry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:10:18 EST From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) Irresponsible REPs, etc. On the impeachment issue--and I may be going out on a limb-- I agree that the whole thing is ridiculous but the bottom line is this-- Clinton lied about what he had done. I think the impeachment is more about that than anything else. It's between Bill, God, Monica and Hilary what went on in the oval office (same old sacred cow) but there is a code of ethics that should apply to people in office just as ethics apply to people in business. It is not sufficient or appropriate to assume that all policticians are corrupt and that we should expect or condone their dishonesty to us. As citizens we shouldn't accept less than honesty--both personally and professionally. Just because reality doesn't always deal us that hand doesn't mean we have to lay down like dogs and say "okay." My mother had a saying about lying--sooner or later it all comes out in the wash. Bill should have come clean with it. He's been known as a philanderer for a very long time and who knows how many women he may have harrassed. Those women may not have said anything because he was the prez or because he was the gov. The philosophy that "boys will boys" should not be taken lightly in the context that Billy boy perjured himself to try to cover up that open fly. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:27:45 -0500 From: Janet Hess Subject: Age of Little Drummer Person? (NJC) Finally there's time here in Washington to ponder really important things. Does anyone in JMDLland know when the song "The Little Drummer Boy" was written? I remember it from elementary school and suspect it must have been 1957 or so (OK, I'm an olde farte, so whut?). I think but am not sure that the song was actually new then...I did a quick web search but didn't find anything definitive. Does anyone know, or want to match memories (I've already shown you mine)? Thanks. Cheerz, Janet, where it's fast comin' on Christmas in DC & we may have our first White Christmas in almost eons ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:27:02 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: (NJC) Irresponsible REPs, etc. M. Hart wrote: >On the impeachment issue--and I may be going out on a limb-- >I agree that the whole thing is ridiculous but the bottom line is this-- >Clinton lied about what he had done. I think the impeachment is more about >that than anything else. It's between Bill, God, Monica and Hilary what went >on in the oval office (same old sacred cow) but there is a code of ethics that >should apply to people in office just as ethics apply to people in business. There is not only a code of ethics, there are Federal and State laws against perjury in the U.S. That is what I cannot get past on this issue. I'm beyond sick of this long, drawn-out circus going on, but I cannot bring myself to say to let perjury by a President slide by, even though it's related to Bill's personal matters. Most of our laws come into being from the common law - cases that set precedents. If we set a precedent that a President can lie under oath on certain matters, what happens? I've actually heard several of the talking heads on TV say that we should change the law to allowing lying about personal, i.e. sexual, matters. But if we changed the law to provide for that, what would happen to people bringing legitimate sexual harassment suits? It is a dilemma. My law firm is known as one of the most politically liberal in the country and it also puts its money where its proverbial mouth is by giving more to charity and providing more pro bono assistance per capita than any other firm in the U.S. Several of the attorneys have close ties with the Democratic party, Clinton and Washington. One of our attorneys co-authored the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I've witnessed many of them ruminating over this dilemma. But when it comes right down to it, they too express that the bottom line is that perjury cannot be condoned or excused. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:18:33 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: you guys... *S* Pat, I can't believe you're letting our " critical reasoning" spirit get to you. This is the way the list is, and you shouldn't take it too seriously. For each thing you say or do, there are going to a dozen people that'll accuse of being a grave robber or a children murderer and a couple hundred that'll welcome your stories and insight, albeit ALWAYS on the lookout for a bit too much bull. I don't have the slightest idea whether you are for real or a world-famous mythomaniac, and I don't give a *S* [my use of *S*]. I'm eager to hear what you have to say. I'd rather be a potential target for a liar than wonder " what if, what if" for the rest of my natural life. Best, WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:22:34 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: ON THE OTHER HAND...njc On the other hand, Pat, too much baiting can make one really restless, don't you think? WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:45:44 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Merry Christmas ... (oh yeah, NJC) Wishing all listers a very Merry Christmas -- may all those little lights burn brightly -- hope y'all make a great haul! See you on the flip side. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 00:57:50 +0100 From: "Peter Holmstedt" Subject: The Painted iD January Shows PRESS RELEASE THE PAINTED ID ANNOUNCES JANUARY SHOWS Who: Fox Street Records recording artists "The Painted iD". What: The "iD" announces a set of gigs in Ventura and LA during the month of January to promote their (as yet) un-released, self-titled CD. Each show will feature The Painted iD's brand of original, smoothly melodic, slightly alternative folk-rock. When / Where: Thursday, January 7, 7:30pm to 10:30pm Cafe Voltaire - 34 N. Palm, Ventura, CA - Phone: (805) 641-1743 Saturday, January 9, 8:00pm to 10:30pm Garden Village Cafe - 40 Day Road, Ventura, CA - Phone: (805) 642-4015 *** CD RELEASE PARTY *** Friday, January 22, 7:00pm to 9:00pm The Mint - 6010 W. Pico Blvd, Los Angeles, CA - Phone: (323) 954-9630 7:00pm to 8:00pm - Invitation only reception 8:00pm to 9:00pm - The Painted iD showcase How: The Painted iD will play the gig at The Café Voltaire, and Garden Village Café "acoustically", in order to feature song structure and melody, while the CD Release party showcase will be "electric". For more information, Please contact: Peter De Baets Fox Street Records 3875 Telegraph Rd. #A181 Ventura, CA 93003 USA E-mail: pdebaets@compuserve.com Phone: 310 388 1015 Visit The Painted iD on the web at http://www.thepaintedid.com/ Our new CD can be purchased from these web sites: http://cdbaby.com/buy/paintedid.htm - CD Baby http://www.rocketentertainment.com - Rocket Entertainment ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 00:30:47 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: (NJC) Irresponsible REPs, etc. Time to come clean-I screwed JR. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 00:30:35 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: you guys... *S* I think youir assesment of Pat is a little hard, Bob. Pat has been treated appalingly and from what i have read, has mangaed to behave and respond quite well. I would told the JMDL to fuck off and not bother with it again! But then now I am 40 my hormones probably make me crabby! It's the womanopause, ya know(or in my case it really is menpoause-while I catch my breath) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 00:30:30 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: you guys... *S* Pat-I cannot do other than feel this has been a sorry episode. Although there is much in waht you said about liars not being able to believe anyone else, I feel too that such feelings can arise purely from jealousy. many people here see joni as something more than she is-a human being-and idolise her and would truly love to meet her for they feel she could change their lives in some way. sadly, this may lead to the carping you have experienced. I do not believe these people are mean or anything-just blinded to themselves at times-as we all are. Personally it matters not to me whether or not your sharing has been true-it just matters that people attacked with no proof one way or the other! There was spomeone last year who wrote some distasteful things regarding his supposed sexual exploits with Joni. Whetehr or not that was true is anyone's guess BUT he was distasful and I hope it wasn't true because Joni would have known she had slept with an utter creep! best wishes colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:46:27 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) Irresponsible REPs, etc. In a message dated 12/23/98 3:39:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, kakkib@att.net writes: << I'm beyond sick of this long, drawn-out circus going on, but I cannot bring myself to say to let perjury by a President slide by, even though it's related to Bill's personal matters. >> I understand your feelings, Kakki, but because it is related to his personal life, I think it would be more appropriate to wait until he is out of office and try him in a criminal court for the offense, rather than in the Senate. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:03:47 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: car thieves and tape sharks, what happened to this place? From: "paul tyrer" Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:23:26 -0000 Dear Brett I think your thief actually has **great** taste - taking all your delicious joni tapes and leaving jewel seems like a wise move. if i'd have nicked your car, that's what I would have done! (though Emily the b side of J's first single was a work of mesmerizing genius, IMHO). PX PS Am I the only person on this list who doesn't work for Reprise?! Any good jobs going? Ms Mitchell's official cleaner (boots division) would do fine (inc. free trips to Guatamala?). PPS Did I tell anyone, by the way, that I was there when JM wrote the whole of Hejira? I'm afraid I can't remember much - too much coke, y'know - but I do seem to recall saying, "no, Joan you can't call it *Refuse* of the roads, whattabout 'refuge?'" I think she listened to me on that one. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:02:28 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: R & D (N real JC!) From: "Marsha" Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:51:44 -0500 >Boy, were you on the wrong side of the water cooler!?! I've been >bumped up into "R & G" - that's rumors and gossip to you. (Thank >Goddess I can drop that phony Brit spelling with my buddies.) G.ET OUTTA HERE!!!! I'll bet my brass balls you don't last 6 weeks.... although your making Julie Webb take a powder and come back as some pearl-diving hippie off Japan was clever, yet I expected the sniping nay-sayers to be quicker on the draw (as usual) and a BIG stink to waft through these halls. Most were much nicer than is the norm around here to a newbie with something special to recall in the zero-degrees-of- seperation-department. And while we're carping about the boys upstairs, when the hell is "Kakki" that Kween of Mean going to get to take off her halo?!...we all know how her real personality is...what a stretch playing the "voice of reason" and "flowers of deep feeling" on JM's behalf! When do *I* get to be nice for a change? >Anyway, now that the "Aussies" (tee hee!) have everyone riled up >on the Clinton thing, it'll make my job a lot easier - pumping >Joni's White House overnighter in January was going to be tough. >Chelsea's "adoption" of Joni as spiritual mentor is coming out >on the 15th, and Liz Smith's column will be a couple of days >ahead of that. Great stuff, Stevie! Well, I do see why Geffen (he is scarfing up Reprise before next quarter, isn't he?) is using your girley guile and spin doctoring skills to set the pace for the New Year and give us some better fodder! And all those mass "resignations" last month by those "bandwidth bandits" firings was a great face-saving campaign, don't you think? Even though we probably miss most of those "Joni ain't so great" farters, heads did need to roll... >See, I set this up even before the promotion became official, and >do you think those Reprise swine would give me a raise? Hah! They've >scheduled *that* for April 1, but, we'll see! When are they going to fly me out for another one of those god-awful, boring "meet and greets" anyway? I would rather do Joan's handwashies up at the cabin in the sub-freezing temps, than make her 30 year fans line up for those never-ending photo ops with her...sheesh, you'd think they'd give me a break here. Maybe you could put a word in at the next happy hour? That last devoted-fans-at-the-Ritz-in-Atlanta thing nearly did me in.... >You're girlfriend, > >"Steve" When did you get that surgery, hon? Coming up on a couple of year's now? Great boobs....who did 'em? My Cooper's Droopers are needing attention. Maybe I could combine a consult with a visit to you "guys" out there. But tell Joan I am sick to death of those 4 hour lunches at The Daily Grill. I got botulism there last time. Well, have a marvelous holiday, dear, and please, please, please don't tell anyone that the new Joni tape from the PPView special is going for a pittance at Walmart alongside Garth's swill... xoxo, MoP ****bah,humbug****bah, humbug***bah, humbug*****bah, humbug****bah,humbug***** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:14:13 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: [none] Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 16:58:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Mark T. Klempner" Re: P. Henry: what a mess! I su.bscribe to the Joni digest, so I didn't get all the posts right away. My quick response is that I'm sorry to see him go just as I was starting to trust him, but I do not feel sorry about the way I reacted to his initial post. Anybody who walks into Joni Central and claims to have helped her write "Both Sides Now. . . Talking about creative partnerships, Joni does not credit William Blake for a little help with the lyrics of the song TTT, does she??? "I watched the stars throw down their spears . . . Tyger, tyger burning bright In the forests of the night." >From the end of W. Blake's poem. Have a great Christmas if you'll be celebrating . . . . Mark from Chapel Hill (now in Harrisburg, PA) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:36:12 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: you guys... *S* At 12/23/98 09:36 AM , P. Henry wrote: >if I write anymore I will send it individually to those who've written me >expressing interest... Dang, people! What is this, the Spanish Inquisition? I have long ago accepted the fact that Joni once lived in Detroit, once was not as famous as she is now, and once actually spent time and made friends with average, ordinary folk no higher up on the totem pole than you or I. Since this is the Joni Mitchell Discussion List, the odds are that sooner or later, just maybe kinda sorta one of these people with whom she crossed paths 30-odd years ago would actually own a computer and subscribe to the list. Following this logic a step further, I then have assumed that one day a person of this sort would actually post to the list and tell us some stories. P Henry may or may not fit this description in your eyes but, call me gullible - call me naive, I believe him. If he is full of crap, the first time he spins an artificial yarn there are more than enough Joni experts on the list to hang him out to dry. I feel like we're adopting a "guilty until proven innocent" approach to Pat. Keep on posting Pat! But if you decide not to - I'll certainly understand. Regardless, I'm damn glad I'm on your individual list... Les - feeling better now.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:46:17 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Introduction + Tape I'm 16 and also a student. Fortunately, I've only got 6 months left of what is known as Junior Hell in good 'ol california. welcome to the list! - -mariana np: blink 182, -dude ranch- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 18:12:07 -0700 From: Wally Breese Subject: CBC-TV Version of Special Hi everyone, Thanks to a friend up north, I recently got to see the Canadian (CBC-TV) version of Joni's "Painting With Words and Music" TV special. If you remember, it was broadcast two days after the PPV version was aired here in the U.S., on a Sunday evening at 9PM, which is prime TV time. It was up against the season premiere of "The X-Files," so there was major competition, but Sunday night normally has the largest audience of the week, so it was in a very good slot. Since it IS commercial TV, about 45 minutes of performance was squeezed into the 60 minute slot. The frequent commercial breaks did somewhat disturb the flow of the program, but U.S. network TV is as bad or worse, so it's something that I'm used to. And because of the commercial breaks, I saw more of Joni's beautiful paintings, because there is one painting shown at each fadeout to commercial and each fadeback in to the program. One painting that I saw is the one of Joni and Don Freed that was used as the cover of the promotional IV-CD Reprise recently put out to promote TTT. Surprisingly, Joni included no songs from her new album in this version. The CBC-TV setlist: Big Yellow Taxi Comes Love (ads) Amelia Hejira (ads) Sex Kills Why Do Fools Fall in Love? (ads) Magdalene Laundries (ads) (Graham Nash presents Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Award) Woodstock (ads) Dreamland (partial, with credits) Later, Wally Breese The Joni Mitchell Homepage http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:02:30 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: (NJC) Irresponsible REPs, etc. Paul wrote: >I understand your feelings, Kakki, but because it is related to his personal >life, I think it would be more appropriate to wait until he is out of office >and try him in a criminal court for the offense, rather than in the Senate. It may be more appropriate but our present laws preclude that approach. We currently operate under a law which mandates that *any* criminal act by a sitting president be reported to Congress immediately and Congress is likewise mandated to determine whether the criminal act warrants grounds for impeachment. If you read the infamous Starr report carefully there is a long preamble which spells out in great detail the applicable Federal statutes and code sections for these mandates. In fact, that was the main section I was interested in reading the report because I wanted to know the "whys" and the "wherefores" of its existence. Also, our current law and the U.S.Constitution mandate a speedy trial in all criminal matters. This is ideally to serve the interests of justice for all parties involved. If a criminal trial is delayed, witnesses' testimony can be affected by the dimming of memory, key witnesses may die or become disabled or unavailable in the interim, etc. So what true alternative does this leave the Congress in the context of current legal realities? Can they enter an Act of Congress to exempt a president from these laws? Maybe they can - I really don't know. But my guess is that it would be pretty impossible to suspend core provisions of the Constitution on behalf of one citizen. Kakki, really not trying to be legalistic - just without a real alternative answer to the whole dilemma NP: Chris Isaak - Walk Slow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:30:25 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: you guys... *S* (NJC) At 06:36 PM 12/23/98 -0700, Les Irvin wrote: >Dang, people! What is this, the Spanish Inquisition? I didn't want to get involved in this, but... Les makes some excellent points, especially when he says some have been made to feel "guilty until proven innocent." Since I've been part of the JMDL it's never ceased to amaze me just how rudely people sometimes treat others on this list. And yes, *I* have been in the middle of flame wars but I can say with 100 percent conviction that I feel I was challenged and bullied into those situations. P. Henry has come forth with personal recollections of time spent with Joni and while I admit that his writing style raised some personal suspicions about his authenticity I will continue to give him the benefit of the doubt. His posts are bursting with Joni content, the main reason we're all here. Isn't it? Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 19:23:55 -0700 From: Wally Breese Subject: Year end awards, my health, & the holidays Hi everyone, Rolling Stone's year end "Special Double Issue" (12/24/98-1/7/99), featuring a photo of Jewel on the cover, is now on newstands and Joni gets two mentions in this issue. First, in the "1998 Rock & Roll Yearbook" section for the month of May, there's a report on the "Trio" tour of Bob Dylan, Van Morrison and Joni. The same photos used when the tour was originally covered are shown again here. Second, in "The Year In Recordings (albums that mattered in 1998)," her new album Taming The Tiger is reviewed alongside of Madonna's album Ray Of Light. The fact that RS is now calling TTT one of the best albums of the year when it never bothered to actually feature it in its album review "Recordings" section, is mind-boggling and typical of the dismissive manner that the most commercial of the media outlets treat Joni's work. RS now calls the album one of the best of the year, but they wouldn't stoop to review it at the time of it's release when a focus like that could've certainly positively affected early sales figures. If I had a drink, I'd throw it. *-) Entertainment Weekly has just released it's special year end double issue (12/25/98-1/1/99) "Best Of 1998." In the "Best and Worst Music" section, three critics give their top tens of 1998, and Chris Willman picks Joni's newest album, Taming The Tiger, as his #10. Willman says of TTT: "Half personal insight, half incisory gnashing, Mitchell lashes out at the world, then retreats back to the arms of love. Speaking of both sides now." Unlike Rolling Stone magazine, Entertainment Weekly did review TTT at the time of its release, giving it a grade of "A" Billboard magazine's year end double issue "1998: The Year In Music" (12/26/98-1/2/99) is now available, and among the critic's Top Tens, Joni's Taming The Tiger is ranked in BB editor-in-chief, Timothy White's list at #7. Thanks as always to Tim for his unwavering support for Joni's music. - --------------- The latest news on my health is quite positive with my scans still showing no trace of tumour. Of course, the final test will be when the surgeon goes in and has a look, and that operation has been scheduled for January 11th. This slight delay will allow me to enjoy the holidays with full mobility. - --------------- I want to wish my friends here on the JMDL the best of the holiday season. Thanks for your support and love in 1998. It was quite a year. May you all have a happy and eventful 1999. Love, Wally Breese The Joni Mitchell Homepage http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #522 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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