From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #519 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, December 22 1998 Volume 03 : Number 519 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- NJC (but with X'mas Content) [Joseph Palis ] Re: Simply feeling my way around (NJC) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Re : harsh words (NJC) [Mark Domyancich ] Re: NJC Apology/My Country [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Newbie intro/top5/music biz/tv threads [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: p.henry (NJC) ["Phil Klein" ] P. Henry PENs (long) ["Mark T. Klempner" ] Re: P. Henry PENs (long) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: authenticity... ["P. Henry" ] songfodder (JM would dig) [Thomas Ross ] script slackers (NJC) ["Marsha" ] A Sad Tale (Lost JC) [Brett Code ] replies... ["P. Henry" ] Re: Simply feeling my way around (NJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: script slackers (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: NJC Apology/My Country [LRFye@aol.com] Re: P. Henry PENs (long) ["Kakki" ] Re: P. Henry PENs (long) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: P. Henry PENs (long) [Les Irvin ] Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: P. Henry PENs (long) [LRFye@aol.com] Re: happy holidays (njc) [LRFye@aol.com] Changing song names (was: RE: P. Henry PENs (long)) [Brett Code ] Re: P. Henry PENs (long) [LRFye@aol.com] Re: P. Henry PENs (long) ["Kakki" ] Re: P. Henry PENs (long) [Phyliss Ward ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:44:56 +0800 (CST) From: Joseph Palis Subject: NJC (but with X'mas Content) Happy Holidays to all. Its funny, because I was supposed to go on a tour this December near Iraq, but ........ anyway, see you all next year. Maligayang Pasko. Joseph ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 04:39:34 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Simply feeling my way around (NJC) From: Claud.Loren.Carter@ccMail.Census.Gov >>My date and I flew to Boston, got a picnic basket, wine, cheese, >>bread, sat on the ground and listened to James sing "Got your baby, got your blanket, got your bucket of beer." - James Taylor, "That's Why I'm Here" - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:27:11 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Re : harsh words (NJC) I'm surprised no one came to my defense and no apology was given. Best, Mark NP-Stay in Touch At 12:14 AM -0500 12/21/98, Marilune@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/20/98 3:38:32 PM, jason.maloney@virgin.net wrote: > >>For chrissakes, stop being a jerk! ENOUGH! You accuse this person in >>public, then tell him (in public again) to take it off-list! Isn't there >>too much hypocrisy in the world as it is? ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:00:20 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: NJC Apology/My Country Diana wrote: That we have 2 political parties that *can't* work together is scary! Where is it headed? I think that where it's headed is what happened in Minnesota - they elected Jesse Ventura, maybe because he's a former celebrity, but more likely because he's neither Democrat or Republican and is willing to be honest and hard-working. It's kind of scary when Washington moves forward with this impeachment crap against the overwhelming wishes of the American people, and justifies it by saying "Sometimes the people don't know what's best..." Bob M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:23:00 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Newbie intro/top5/music biz/tv threads Michael wrote: Hi, I am a newbie on this list. Thought I would intro myself with comments on a few recent threads. Generally, I am a frequent lurker -seldom poster. I generally try to keep it shorter than this when I post. Welcome Michael! Top 5 Albums for me: 1. John Hiatt - 'Walk On' I loved this one too, although I still think "Stolen Moments" is his best - my favorite track on this one is the "hidden track", whatever it's title is... Bob M. in SC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:49:01 GMT From: "Phil Klein" Subject: Re: p.henry (NJC) > Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:41:17 +0000 > From: catman > Subject: p henry > > I might find these posts really interesting if I could read them! > It is easier if they fit on the page rather than having to scroll to th > right and left. Makes my eyes funny so i cannot read them! > What e-mail system are you using? There is usually an option in one of the pull-down menus to "wrap long lines" or similar. If that doesn't work, then try hitting the reply button. The original message usually appears in the correct format then. Remember not to hit "send" though, especially if you're reading a digest!! Phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:03:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Mark T. Klempner" Subject: P. Henry PENs (long) P. Henry wrote: ... she also included me in some of her songwriting sessions and one song I participated in writing was "Both Sides"... stories? oh, don't get me started! *L* perhaps sometime I can tell you the rather comical tale of how I first met Joni... then there's the one when she sent the reprise boys to sign me... and I turned them down... was I 'in love' with her? of course! it may sound trite but I have to tell you, Roberta Joan Anderson was always a tremendous person and a real star, long before the rest of the world had a clue... see, the last time I saw Joni was in Detroit in '68..." And later P. Henry wrote: no, I don't claim any 'collaboration', in fact, in my memory, I wasn't much help at all... none, in fact... still, she, in fact, called me back in the dressing room (not the only time this ever happened) and played what she had so far and asked me to jump in with any ideas I had... don't know if anything I did or said influenced her but I doubt it... pretty sure she was well aware that I'd certainly never written a song and that I was quite the 'mocking bird', virtually aping all the performers that came through... doing their material when they were playing elsewhere... I think if you asked most musicians who ever worked with her at any time they would tell you it was completely different from working with anyone else they'd ever played with... in fact, I'm sure of it! it's hard to explain but I guess ya'd have to know her and the way she was with me and others... I think maybe she was trying to encourage me, then a 17 yr old kid... maybe trying to fan a creative spark she saw in me... I remember how blown away I was that she'd even ask me for my thoughts... please understand, I don't in any way want to infer that Joni is not the true original author of all her material... she obviously is! *L* no, I'm not richard... but you can imagine, perhaps, how it felt the first time I ever heard that line... Mark Klempner writes (as part II of a response): In a way what this is all about is (1) the difference between the 60s and the 90s, (2) the difference between Joni's pre-fame and after-fame state, and (3) the nature of PENs. PEN is a folklore/anthropology/oral history acronym for "personal experience narrative." PENs serve many functions, most often to provide entertainment for family and friends. A person telling a PEN is often doing it to enhance others' view of him or her. Rarely do people tell PENs that make them look bad. A lot of the content of the PEN is influenced by the "performative moment": who the PEN is being told to, what is going on at the time it is being told. It is not at all unusual for people to exaggerate when telling PENs, and in other ways stretch the truth. Sometimes this goes over the top and you have "tall tales." All this playing around with reality is done because the teller feels that these modifications will make the story more entertaining/interesting to the listeners, or result in the teller being held in higher esteem. OK, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you've had experiences with Joni. My initial response had some element of bluff in it: a complete fabricator would be exposed and slither away. (There are exceptions: if the fabricator had been a lawyer for example!) The way you *did* respond to my challenge makes me feel that you simply didn't understand your audience when you wrote your PEN. In your response, you immediately modified your PEN so as to better connect to your audience. You retracted any implication that you helped Joni write her songs, and you also stated clearly that she did *not* write "The Last Time I Saw Richard" about you. I think I can safely tell you that we are an audience that will respond excitedly to stories about Joni, but we are very concerned about truth. Just try misquoting Joni on this newsgroup. The JCS (Joni Correction Squad) will be out in a flash. While saying stuff like "I helped Joni write Both Sides Now" might go over big as something to tell your grandchildren, it will make someone like me mad. Exaggeration is not necessary, and only detracts from credibility. Less is more. "The times you impress me most are the times that you don't try/when you don't even try." You obviously like to embroider your stories, and, given an audience receptive to your embellishments and accepting of your self-aggrandizing statements, would probably would take it a lot further than you did in your initial posts. But while you're here just try to make believe that all your statements will later be meticulously investigated by some Antichrist figure like Ken Starr. Storytelling is fun, and exaggeration and self-aggrandizement have their place, but when you share PENs on this newsgroup, it's more like giving testimony. ps if I took too many liberties in speaking for the group, feel free to chime in; I know you will anyway. Yes, we're very diverse and I'm sure there are many different conceptions as to what's going on here, and how it should go on. Mark in Chapel Hill still sick in bed with the flu, disheartened about the bombing of Iraq and the Clinton stuff, but enjoying the newsgroup very much. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 07:56:10 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: P. Henry PENs (long) Just a little analysis of P. Henry's interesting tale ... or hoax, depending on whose camp you're in ... >P. Henry wrote: > >... see, the last time I saw Joni was in Detroit in '68..." > >And later P. Henry wrote: > >I think maybe she was trying to encourage me, then a 17 >yr old kid... maybe trying to fan a creative spark she saw in me... Now if you do the math, this would make P Henry approx 47 years old today ... 7 years joni's junior. Now admittedly the 60s were a freer generation, but would a college-grad aged joni have been hanging out with a high-school kid? I leave this question open ... but I for one, will remain skeptical. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:42:22 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: Re: authenticity... gene, you're quite welcome and I hope you write again... no, there are, perhaps, some existing tapes among the others that were there then but I have none... dammit! *L* I think it's pretty wonderful too... to be honest, I was totally mesmerized by the lady! you like stories? well here's one for ya: I started out at the tender age of 15 playing dylan, paxton and a lot of trad stuff every night in a small detroit area coffeehouse in 1964... did that for about a year or so and then our family moved "up the thumb" toward the port huron area... got my first "real" job washing dishes for a hotel restaurant which I soon traded in for a better job delivering appliances and furniture for a hardware store. the guy I worked with on the truck was named brian and was really into folk music too so we hit it off pretty good, considering he was 19 and I was 16... well, after working together almost a year one day he invited me to a party up near the college in port huron and so I rode along with him... when we got there, it turned out that this 'party' was actually a meeting of college students who were determined to re-open a local coffeehouse (for the third time) called "The Cellar". (it was during it's prior incarnation that is was used as a meeting place for the SDS) it was somewhat curious to me why I had been invited seeing as I was so much younger... (QUITE unlike college students) but, as it turned out, though they desperately wanted their old coffehouse back, they really had no resources in the entertainment area and, I think at brian's prompting, they were hoping I'd be able to help them since I'd been a performer and, they thought, might know the ropes, so to speak... (and also perform myself) so what happened was that they ended up forming up a non-profit org. constitution that night and electing officers to run the thing and they elected me, a barely 17 yr old kid, to act as the entertainment mgr! (now, hang in there... all this is background leading up to what I really wanted to tell you about...) so, while discussing with me their thoughts about performers, right away someone chimed "...and you have to get Chuck and Joni!" and someone else said "yeah! Chuck and Joni!" and, not having a clue who 'Chuck and Joni' were and feeling a bit intimidated by the fact that all these people were at least a couple years older than myself and as I was, unaccustomed to being in a 'position', and elected, no less, of course my youthful pride reared up and I said: "well, I'm going to have to audition them first"! LoL!!!! ...still makes me laugh (& blush) when I think of it! can you imagine?!? *L* the real kicker, though, came when I finally did get them booked in to play for the weekend... and it was SRO! their routine was to do 3 sets... one each alone and one together... well, first Chuck played his set (and , in case you're wondering, he was good... really good! ballads mostly... a real pro performer! wow, there are SO many lyrics on the first album I could tell you stuff about!) and then, after the break, there she was mounting the stage with her martin... never before (or since) have I experienced such beauty as Joni live onstage... her voice was superb and her charm irresistable! I had to do the reostats for the colored lights... and, from the first song, I was floating! and between songs she talked and joked and flirted and laughed... (had to change the tunings, ya know...) and her laughter was like sunshine goin' right through ya! ...but when it really, really hit home... (the 'audition' thing?) was at the end of her set... "yesterday a child came out..." sing along... circle game... and when she got to the chorus, the WHOLE PLACE joined in!!! and it was deafening... and it was like coming home... 'kindred spirits' indeed... *S* - -- On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:48:01 Gene Mock wrote: >Thanks again for the reply. Do you have any tapes or records of your music? >I think it's wonderful you were directly effected by Joni and found her to >be so unique. All of us, especially myself, find it easy to relate to >Joni's music/lyric and wonder how she was able to find such a vulnerable >spot with me, you and everybody else. Guess we're kindred souls one way or >another. And I do enjoy your stories. Take Care Gene Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:05:38 -0500 (EST) From: Thomas Ross Subject: songfodder (JM would dig) Limited to words about music, we can sometimes write musically. P Henry aka?. . . sure writers need to bounce stuff off all kinds of people, initiated, masterful, or green. This is ongoing even after the work becomes official: witness Joyce's neverending revisions of the Wake. His 'people' included, I think, George Herriman (Krazy Kat cartoonist and unsung prosepoet), whom Joyce enjoyed every Sunday. I like to imagine him in a Paris cafe in the late morning, maybe with coffee or white wine, reading the latest fullcolor pagefilling Krazy Kat installment, which had things like . . . Bum Bill Bee, who knows no yesterday, recognizes no today, and to whom tomorrow is oblivion. . .the bee whose feet have trod many sands, and whose wings have fanned many airs. .. . . . but a numb mind once made nimble begets nimble feet, and our 'krazy' is on, and away from here. .. Don Kyoti, gentleman of invisible means. .. Ignatz Mouse, the arch polemic of the village. . . . . . unmoistened, unbaptised, and muy seco. . .cheats the reaper of a pure young soul . . . the waning moon rides the waves of hot air like a golden galleon and for each star that falls upon the enchanted mesa, Don Kyoti, psalm singer of the desierto pintado, lilts an anthem A kat full of kuriousity is considerable pry package we assure you. . . but when a kurious kat in kwest of kuriousity meets a koyote full of kuriousity, we must say as how it is some klash of kuriousity. . . for Joe Stork, it is kaution, not kuriousity, which is the high note in the gamut of his virtues. . . 'tis he who gathers in the stray stars which fall in his front yard - - folds them in a knitting bag [they become babies]. [written to be read in a mirror:] Reverse, oh reel of time, reverse! and so, with a sandstone moon swimming in the heat-waves, a ruisenor's canticle coming from the smoke-bush, dong kiyote ragging the scales, somewhere, everywhere, nowhere -- why shouldn't Mr. & Mrs Joshua dance? [this was inspiration & fodder for my song 'Joshua Dance'. a ruisenor is a nightingale. what's a smoke-bush, anyone?] [For that matter, is a stocking bird the same as a stork? what is a tule swamp or pie plant? Herriman has you looking these up, and a Spanish dictionary helped me also.] Bum Bill Bee, the undetermined pilgrim who has his mind on nothing, and who has nothing on his mind, pauses on his journey to nowhere at which moment, for no reason at all, he brings out of retirement by process of exfoliation that pale, pallid and placid legume known in herbaceous circles of the better sort as 'belzona banana'. Need we say that this disrobement is as chaste in purpose as the moon casting off her cloud garments, or Venus arising, having left in the arms of Neptune her vestments of spray. 'Spray' as in a spray of foliage or flowers, thus clothing. I suspect both Joyce and Herriman noted the swagger and mock-learnedness of P T Barnum's patter. JM has a great although fallible ear (probably likes Whitman's 'Very well, I contradict myself. I contain multitudes'). Herriman, Shakespeare, Dickinson, and sometimes Marianne Moore are among the few able to make Latinate words sound good. I sure can't. Willie the Shake's multitudinous seas incarnadine - - - ah! or Moore's [the mind] is an enchanted thing like the glaze on a katydid-wing subdivided by sun till the nettings are legion. Like Gieseking playing Scarlatti; like the apteryz-awl as a beak, or the kiwi's rain-shawl of haired feathers, the mind feeling its way as though blind, walks along with its eyes on the ground. It has memory's ear that can hear without having to hear. Like the gyroscope's fall truly unequivocal because trued by regnant certainty, it is a power of strong enchantment. . . * AND/OR! Dickinson's . . . Nature is what we know but have no art to say - - so impotent our wisdom is to her simplicity. Reminds me of my 1st Indian teacher Ramanathan's response to my question about why we made instruments when we already had the God-given perfect instrument, the voice: 'To compete with God!'! tr ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`). (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (il).-'' (li).' ((!.-' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:14:36 -0500 From: "Marsha" Subject: script slackers (NJC) Marky laments: >I'm surprised no one came to my defense and no apology was given. Harpy babe, when are you going to start paying attention at the story board meetings?! No sympathetic-jumping-on-the-bandwagon- in-defense-of-the-yelping-injured-party scenarios have been written into the scripts this month by our employer, Reprise. If you don't start paying attention at the water cooler here, you will be relegated to the go-get-us-coffee-and-donuts-squad without benefit of having any of your memos responded to by us Joni-grunts on the dole...uh...I Mean "payroll" of the star-maker machinery here. Marsha, expecting a huge Xmas bonus from the folks upstairs after my 200+ posts for 1998 on joni-smoe...and I heard a rumor that Dulson is going to head R & D next year...is this true??? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:18:05 -0700 From: Brett Code Subject: A Sad Tale (Lost JC) Hi all, I've been swamped lately, so have been lurking. Thanks for being out there. Last May, I bought a buddy's car. I hadn't owned a car in about 10 years - suddenly my bike was no longer used and I drove everywhere. The greatest pleasure was driving around listening to Joni - somehow, the sound in my car put a new spin on her music. Over the course of several months, I must have had about 20 tapes in the car, including all of Tape Tree #7 and the tape of the Vancouver show that Kenny G. made for me. A month ago, my car was stolen. Couldn't care less about the car, but my tapes - what to do without them. A couple were my original recordings of LOTC, Blue and Hejira. They've been around the world with me over the last 20-some years. Got the car back. All the tapes were gone - except a recent recording of Jewel's first album. A tasteless, cruel cretin - chucks my JM tapes and listens to Jewel while driving around in my car. I'll never replace my lost old friends, but, with a little help from one of you, I could get TT#7. Would one of you charitable souls agree to record it for me? And Kenny, the Vancouver show - please! Thanks. Brett Joni-less ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:29:52 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: replies... jason wrote: "You accuse this person in public, then tell him (in public again) to take it off-list!" jason, thanks for having a heart for justice and compassion and the backbone to speak up... but it WAS the wrong mark... *G* - ----------- marktk wrote: "OK, you are absolved. What set me off is this issue of people claiming..." marktk, tanx 4 absolving me... I don't blame you... you're right about the 'old days' and how things have changed... *S* - ----------- diana wrote: "Ok so maybe I jumped the gun. It's just that after being on the list for years and to have someone pop up and say I knew Joni when... So apologies" diana, yer absolved too... *S* hey ya know what? I don't know if an archive exists but I posted to the old cafe around oct/nov '96 and made myself known as best I could... even invited people to write me if they had any questions... never heard a peep and got busy with other things... so, sorry to tell ya... but I DID know Joni when! *G* - ----------- wally k wrote: "about P. henry's posts -- every word of which for some strange reason I believe -- does the frequent *S* stand for shit?" wallyk, LoL!!! ROFLMAO!!!! - ----------- gene wrote: "I would like to hear more from him. Does it really matter if he's telling the truth or not." gene, thanks... you will.... and well, yeah it matters... to me *S* - ----------- lori wrote: "I was thrown by *BS* earlier, but I think *S* means . Therefore, *BS* would mean big smile. Pat, am I correct? Lori, enjoying Pat's posts" lori, yup! *BS* - ----------- and btw... Meri Chistmas, everyone! *GBS* Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:05:15 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Simply feeling my way around (NJC) From: Claud.Loren.Carter@ccMail.Census.Gov Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:03:22 -0500 Ashara, Hug warmly accepted. Thanks for rubbing my nose in the fact that you're in the mountains and I am not. I'm in the burbs of DC, so I/we get to hear the Iraq and Bill/Monica/Tripp/Jones story every night (for the past 6 months) on the evening news and the daily paper. I'm so tired of the whole mess. I just don't care anymore!!! BWAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!! To all...thanks for making me feel welcome here. PJTJOY...see the fun we started with the acronyms. They were most funny. I promise to tell all of my wife's reaction to the litho. It will get nicely framed for her b-day on Jan 12 (along with the concert poster and the ticket stubs) Loren....back at work on this misty cold December morning..... NP (on the radio)....History of Rock and Roll, Part II....don't recognize the artist (it's an old version) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:15:37 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: script slackers (NJC) Marsha, expecting a huge Xmas bonus from the folks upstairs after my 200+ posts for 1998 on joni-smoe... Marsha, Not likely - the Reprise bosses are gonna make a bar chart of your posts for the year, and chide you for a weak December performance, so sorry, no bonus this year... Bob M. in SC, who thinks that meeting Joni this year (Thanks to the abovementioned Marsha) was the best bonus of all... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:13:05 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Apology/My Country Bob in SC wrote: > It's kind of scary when Washington moves > forward with this impeachment crap against the overwhelming wishes of > the American people, and justifies it by saying "Sometimes the people > don't know what's best..." That has been the Republican philosophy all along. Worse is that many (most?) members of that party believe it to be true. The Republicans not only try to cram their pseudo-Christian bullshit down everyone's throat, but now they want the cititzens of the United States to think they're god-like, too. Part of what the United States was founded upon was being able to think for ourselves, to make individual choices about religion, while honoring majority rule in voting our political conscience. Unfortunately, the American people did not have the opportunity to cast a vote regarding the impeachment of President Clinton. We -- through our own inept voting or through apathy -- allowed the current Congress to be elected, and now we've paid the price for it. And yes, majority rule won in the House on Saturday. But, as is more and more often the case, the representatives who voted to impeach Clinton were not representing their contituency's wishes. VOTE THEM OUT. Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:48:59 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: P. Henry PENs (long) Don Rowe wrote: >Now if you do the math, this would make P Henry approx 47 years old >today ... 7 years joni's junior. Now admittedly the 60s were a freer >generation, but would a college-grad aged joni have been hanging out >with a high-school kid? I leave this question open ... but I for one, >will remain skeptical. The 60s were a very unique time in history. Being 17 today bears no resemblance to 30 years ago, in my opinion. The typical 17 year old male in 1968 lived with the ever-present prospect of being drafted and shipped off to Vietnam. 17 year old females also grew up a lot faster, too, and many married young because their boyfriends were being shipped out to the war. That is why the teenagers of that time fought for, and won, the right to vote at age 18 instead of 21. If an 18 year old was old enough to fight for one's country, then he or she was certainly old enough to vote. Consider that Laura Nyro had written most of the songs for her first album by the time she was 17. Joni left school alone and pregnant when she was 19 and struggled on her own as a singer-songwriter thousands of miles from home in Toronto. The Beatles were 17 and 18 when they started out in Hamburg. Back then, when I was 16 and 17, I was routinely hanging out with musicians and artist friends in their 20s. We also participated in songwriting and jam sessions on a regular basis. Two of those friends had record contracts in their teens. If any of my friends had become as famous and revered as Joni, I would find it hard now to resist posting some of my reminiscences to their discussion lists. I've been on this list for almost two years and have read many personal stories, reminiscences and revelations from listers and have enjoyed them all. I've also posted a few of my own. I also know there have been other listers who are still here who have posted stories of contact with Joni back in the 60s. Why do personal stories involving Joni trouble some of us? Are some afraid they will suffer embarassment at being "hoaxed?" So far, I have not found any offensive or objectionable content in what P. Henry has said about Joni, so why the outrage? There has been some dispute about the timing of her writing Both Sides Now, but I have read at least 3 "official" versions of when she wrote it anyway, so it's plausible to me that the song evolved over time. I hope P. Henry can give us some more stories once he is finished defending and proving himself here. At any rate, he *has* contributed some brand new acronyms to the collection ;-) Kakki NP: Easy For You To Say - Linda Ronstadt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:14:26 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: P. Henry PENs (long) Hi Kakki -- Thanks for the insights. I'm more a child of the 70s myself, and the spectre of Viet Nam hung over us as well, I assure you. I found the suspicions of the list interesting, and decided to take the sanguine mathematical approach as an exercise. The fact that I, myself, remained skeptical is that I had not yet received the entire thread of messages. Now that I have, I'm convinced that P. Henry had a wonderful, life-impacting experience at an intimate Joni concert in the '60s. I wish I could have been there. Now does that translate into credibility for the assertion of a "two year friendship"? That's my next open question ... and the ease of free speech via internet technology that is the reason for my skepticism than any personal fear of being "hoaxed". Mother always said, "If it sounds too good ...", you know. That, and I happen to really dig Oliver Stone movies! ;-) Take care, Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:21:57 -0700 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: P. Henry PENs (long) At 01:48 PM 12/21/98 , you wrote: >I hope P. Henry can give us some more stories once he is finished defending >and proving himself here. Hooray for Kakki and her voice of reason. I couldn't agree more! Les - treading dangerously close to a me-too-ism with this one... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:36:21 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans - ---------- > From: Mark-Leon Thorne > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans > Date: Monday, December 21, 1998 1:40 AM > All this talk about Iraq's > weapons of mass destruction; what about the USA and the UK's weapons of > mass destruction??? Nobody questions them? Iraq was wrong to invade Kuwait > but, this sort of thing goes on all the time all over the world. Why was > this of such interest to the USA? The cynical view would be the price of > oil. How can one country get away with firing misiles into the middle of a > country when they have never done the same back? How can one country fire a > misile into another country to kill just one person (ie, Afghanistan, > Sudan)? Whose country will be next? Why is it that one country (Iraq) can > go against United Nations resolutions and it's bad but, another (USA, UK) > does and it's fighting for what is right. I don't recall any other country > agreeing to this action. > Mark > Canberra Exactly! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:30:19 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: replies... _P.Henry writes: I don't know if an archive exists but I posted to the old cafe around oct/nov '96 and made myself known as best I could... even invited people to write me if they had any questions... never heard a peep and got busy with other things... so, sorry to tell ya... but I DID know Joni when! *G* Well, P.,looks to my like you're hearing LOTS of peeps now *S*! I suggest you just start rambling! In the words of Sonny Boy Williamson, "Don't start me to talkin', I'll tell everything I know" (Don't know if you helped Sonny Boy write that one or not *BS*). This group will expect no less than full disclosure... Don't wait for us to ask questions - just spill those guts!! Looking forward to the next post, Bob M. in SC - ----------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:57:51 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Love or Money On MOA, and on TT#7 Temple University Concert Joni does two tunes which were new songs not yet recorded. Jericho eventually came out, obviously on DJRD, but Love Or Money was never recorded in the studio. Does anyone know why? From what I can tell, Joni didn't write too many songs after she became well known that didn't make it onto albums. Bob M. NP: Spin Doctors "If Wishes Were Horses" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:53:29 EST From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC Apology/My Country In a message dated 12/21/98 11:17:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, LRFye@aol.com writes: << We -- through our own inept voting or through apathy -- allowed the current Congress to be elected, and now we've paid the price for it. >> absolutely lori...in a democracy, people get the government they deserve. but pay back will be sweet, and i have a feeling it will be HUGE, and i, personally, cannot wait... peace, ric (and sorry i mistook you for a christian! what an insult!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:27:20 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans Mark in Canberra asked: > Why is it that one country (Iraq) can > go against United Nations resolutions and it's bad but, another (USA, UK) > does and it's fighting for what is right. Partisan politics aside, this one goes deeper and I daresay my thoughts will piss of many, but I'm prepared. The US and UK are primarily white, "Christian," capitalist countries. Anyone who isn't those things -- and I do mean all three of those things -- is subject to our contempt and our wrath. Don't dick with the price we pay for oil, because that screws with our economies. Don't object to our weapons of mass destruction, because we know what to do with them and will use them wisely (yeah, right). No one else's system is good or fair; only ours work. We know what's best for everyone (just like -- and here I go back to partisanship -- the Republicans know what's best for all of the citizens of the US). We operate under the theories of Manifest Destiny, and god knows we have every right to remain two of the most wasteful, arrogant, and lazy countries on Earth. Blah, blah, blah ... nothing changes, unless it starts with each of us individually. You want to make a New Year's resolution? Do something this year that really makes a difference. Ride a bicycle or public transportation more and drive your car less. Make friends with a homeless person. Clean out your closets and give all that stuff to a shelter instead of trying to make money in a yard sale. Get your ass off the sofa and vote in every single election that comes around. We're only 580 people on this list, but I'll bet we can make a difference if we try. It happens one person at a time. Holiday rantings and cheer to all, Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:44:21 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: happy holidays (njc) From: "paul tyrer" Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:18:08 -0000 hi everyone i'll refrain from quoting any lines from river, though I must say i'm desperate to do so. anyway. very sorry to hear about the impeachment - does seem like a bit of a slap in the face of the american people (*you* may have elected clinton, but *we're* gonna unelect him cos we know better). and i can't help thinking that if it hadn't had been Monica, it would've been a watered down whitewater, or a travelled out travelgate or the fact that he'd let out a fart during the state visit of the President of Mozambique without coughing politely to disguise the noise - anything would've got him. the us congress is really ghastly - kind of like our house of lords... if there are any gay people out there who can rush to congress and teach them a bit of tolerance, rush there now! (sorry Lori, only joking! i'm just a gay man put down on earth to get everyone really grumpy!!). still, it would be great to see all those queens in an ironic hug-in with the republicans. p'raps that could be a good tongue-in-cheek bumper sticker - hug a republican, go on, you know you want to. apparently, many have... anyway, as capital letters have deserted me (after rather too many G&Ts down town in manchester tonight), i guess i'd better sign off. wishing every one of you a delicious and most wonderful, lovey-dovey xmas PX (i always forget to put my name but it's paul in case anyone wants to hurl love or abuse) by the way, i wish i had a river i could skate away on, i made my baby cry... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:46:40 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: P. Henry PENs (long) Kakki wrote an eloquent description of being a teenager in the '60s and then: > There has been some dispute about the > timing of her writing Both Sides Now, but I have read at least 3 "official" > versions of when she wrote it anyway, so it's plausible to me that the song > evolved over time. I find that idea very believable, for the simple fact that Joni has previously performed songs with a "working" title (for instance, Fourth Of July), only to later change the title upon recording it (Night Ride Home). Who knows how long Joni takes to decide that a song is ready for final release? And even after a song's release, she's been known to change the words to suit the times or herself. Joni wrote Little Green in 1967 but didn't release it until 1971. I wonder how many times she changed that song, especially considering its subject? > Why do personal stories involving Joni trouble some of us? Maybe we think it's impossible for us to *know* anyone who knew Joni very well. (That's silly, of course; think of how Joni herself has been so accessible to so many of us in just this past year.) Or maybe it's just the simple jealousy that rears its head around here from time to time. > I hope P. Henry can give us some more stories once he is finished defending > and proving himself here. I'm in agreement with Kakki. Pat, keep it coming! Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:53:20 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: happy holidays (njc) PX Paul wrote: > if there > are any gay people out there who can rush to congress and teach them a bit > of tolerance, rush there now! (sorry Lori, only joking! i'm just a gay man > put down on earth to get everyone really grumpy!!). LOLOLOL! Love your sense of humor, Paul! > by the way, i wish i had a river i could skate away on, i made my baby cry... But you made me laugh, and I needed it! Thanks! Happy hols to all ... Lori, thinking about taking a trip to D.C. to scream about tolerance ... San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 17:31:47 -0700 From: Brett Code Subject: Changing song names (was: RE: P. Henry PENs (long)) And there was Love's Cries, which I really loved. But it became the 'The Crazy Cries of Love' which I don't love nearly so much. Some amongst us thought that change would be more commercial and that it would be her first single from TTT. Just can't help but wonder whether 'Love's Cries' would've been more attractive. (Make no mistake - I'm a completely uncritical joniphile on these issues and belive that Joni makes the right decision every time. She's the artist; I'm the listener parasite.) So, I don't mean to imply that she chose the wrong name and that she shouldn't have changed the lyrics - I'm just wondering. Brett np: anima rising. . . . Lori wrote: Kakki wrote an eloquent description of being a teenager in the '60s and then: > There has been some dispute about the > timing of her writing Both Sides Now, but I have read at least 3 "official" > versions of when she wrote it anyway, so it's plausible to me that the song > evolved over time. I find that idea very believable, for the simple fact that Joni has previously performed songs with a "working" title (for instance, Fourth Of July), only to later change the title upon recording it (Night Ride Home). Who knows how long Joni takes to decide that a song is ready for final release? And even after a song's release, she's been known to change the words to suit the times or herself. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:38:08 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Kalk Subject: impeachment/republicans/that old feeling/VLJC Diana: you wrote>>I feel like >I did back in the 60's when NON of the politicians seemed to have any clue >on reality. How has it gotten to the state where one religion can mandate >what laws we will be judged by? Clinton did wrong, but I can't throw the >first stone cause if I was in his place I would have LIED too. That >Livingston would think that his affairs would prevent him from working is >ludicrous.<<<<< I remember thinking back then that this war has been around since I became aware of things political - does it ever get to an end? So you tapped an old feeling for me there. As far as republicans feeling bad & resigning: I told my wife, 'geez, if all of them who have had affairs get depressed and quit there wouldn't be a quorum to hold the impeachment hearings, would there be?' ( I wonder if Delay's wife figured out that him bawling around up there about Livingston quitting probably means he's done the deed with someone else too, and is feeling bad about it, now- wondering when Hustler will find out?) Watching all this stuff made me wish I had a river to skate away on, except for the minor technicality that I can't skate. Regards, Mike... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:21:08 -0500 (EST) From: "Mark T. Klempner" Subject: Re: P. Henry PENs (long) Kakki wrote: If any of my friends had become as famous and revered as Joni, I would find it hard now to resist posting some of my reminiscences to their discussion lists. I've been on this list for almost two years and have read many personal stories, reminiscences and revelations from listers and have enjoyed them all. I've also posted a few of my own. I also know there have been other listers who are still here who have posted stories of contact with Joni back in the 60s. Why do personal stories involving Joni trouble some of us? Mark in Chapel Hil writes: I think it's an interesting question and it opens into a lot of other interesting questions. There's so much to say, but here's a few thoughts. First of all, there's the name dropping taboo. Name dropping is simply in bad taste. To bring up the name of a famous person, or a person more famous than yourself, and make a connection between that person and yourself, so as to pull on the famous person's prestige and celebrity to increase your own status or prestige is tacky. I believe this in principal, but where it gets more complicated for me is that I don't believe in celebrity. I don't think famous people are any different from me or you. We are all human, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, our devils and angels. I am not impressed by fame or famous people. For that reason I am often tempted to refer to famous people that I know or have known, not to name drop but because I believe it doesn't matter, shouldn't matter. But it does matter. So I try to avoid what could be seen as name dropping, even though I am uneasy with the process of purposely avoiding the mention of famous people in order to *not* appear to be name dropping. I enjoy PENS that feel like they're just a sharing of experience with no agenda of self-aggrandizement. If I feel like what the person is essentially doing amounts to name dropping, I get turned off even if the story is interesting. Mark in Chapel Hill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:39:01 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: P. Henry PENs (long) Mark in Chapel Hill wrote: > where it gets more complicated for me is that I don't > believe in celebrity. I don't think famous people are any different from > me or you. We are all human, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, > our devils and angels. I am not impressed by fame or famous people. Okay, Mark, I'll accept that you believe this. But here we all are, participating in the Joni Mitchell Discussion List. We explore Joni's (and our own) strengths and weaknesses here, and we have a blast doing so. And we wouldn't be here at all if it were not for the FAME of Joni Mitchell. We don't have to be impressed by it, but can anyone honestly deny that she is different from the rest of us? People have to be different from the norm in order to become famous, and once they are famous, that difference is highlighted even more brightly. Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:35:48 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: P. Henry PENs (long) Mark in Chapel Hill wrote: >First of all, there's the name dropping taboo. Name dropping is simply in >bad taste. Yes, that is generally true in everyday social interactions with people, but this *is* "The Joni Mitchell Discussion List" and all who arrive here come to share some thought about Joni. >To bring up the name of a famous person, or a person more >famous than yourself, and make a connection between that person and >yourself, so as to pull on the famous person's prestige and celebrity to >increase your own status or prestige is tacky. First off, I ask Pat to excuse me for referring to him on the list like he is not even here reading all this. But, to share my thoughts on all this, Pat is bringing up the name of the very person who this list is about. I took his posts to be of a sharing nature and not to increase his own prestige. How could he be increasing his own prestige anyway? We don't know him or have any involvement with his life. He is an email address to us, that is all, at this point. What could he possibly hope to gain in real terms from trying to garner some kind of favor with us? The only selfish thing I see that he is getting out of it is to have a forum to share some wonderful memories with. It's the same thing that most of us get out of being here. Most have us have all expressed numerous times here how grateful we are to have this forum because usually there is no one in our day-to-day life who/whom shares our enthusiasm with Joni Mitchell, or even music, for that matter. Could it not be that Pat has such wonderful memories that he wants an outlet for sharing them? He probably does not have the same real life opportunity to share these stories living on an island off Japan. > I believe this in principal, but where it gets more complicated for me is that I don't >believe in celebrity. I don't think famous people are any different from >me or you. We are all human, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, >our devils and angels. I am not impressed by fame or famous people. Of course, and no healthy person should be impressed by fame or famous people alone. And it's always wise to remember that well-known people are totally human and just like the rest of us. But the most humble and flawed among us can have a gift in them which inspires people. That's who Joni is to me. >For that reason I am often tempted to refer to famous people that I know >or have known, not to name drop but because I believe it doesn't matter, >shouldn't matter. But it does matter. So I try to avoid what could be >seen as name dropping, even though I am uneasy with the process of >purposely avoiding the mention of famous people in order to *not* appear >to be name dropping. Again, I think we would all agree with this in theory but the forum here is, by its very nature, a place to tell stories about our favorite famous person. >I enjoy PENS that feel like they're just a sharing of experience with no >agenda of self-aggrandizement. If I feel like what the person is >essentially doing amounts to name dropping, I get turned off even if the >story is interesting. And I feel uneasy about your use of this term "PENS" to reduce someone's recitation of personal memories into some kind of clinical, "anthropological" phenomena, complete with a set of empirical standards and rules. Finally, many people on this list have privately encouraged Pat to talk with us, so please give him a break, because he is only sharing what people have asked him to share. He and his experiences have, not only meaning, but real relevance to some here. Note to Pat: Keep on posting, and don't worry - I welcome you and would love to hear more. Kakki NP: Laura Nyro - Sweet Blindness ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:59:44 -0800 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: P. Henry PENs (long) Kakki wrote: > Note to Pat: Keep on posting, and don't worry - I welcome you and would > love to hear more. Ok, If Les can do it, so can I. Me too! Pat - Bring on the stories! : ^ ) p.s. Glad to see you have some time on your hands this holday season Les. Speak up boy! We miss you. - -- Phyliss, briefly arising from lurkdom for a list faux paux pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #519 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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