From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #517 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, December 20 1998 Volume 03 : Number 517 The Song and Album Voting Booths are open again! Cast your votes by clicking the links at http://www.jmdl.com/gallery ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- facts ["Mark T. Klempner" ] Christmas in my Soul (NJC) ["Mark T. Klempner" ] Re: world of joni mitchell ["Goodwin" ] Newbie intro/top5/music biz/tv threads [Michael Kalk ] Re: facts [Diana Duncan ] Re: facts [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans [Susan Chaloner ] holy days VLJC [Linda Worster ] Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans [catman ] world of joni mitchell njc ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Christmas in my Soul (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans [LRFye@aol.com] joni slagged [Randy Remote ] Jean Cocteau and Joni ["Mark T. Klempner" ] Joni singing with Seal? ["Jennifer McCall" ] NJCSIQUOMBDJRDIMHOCMIARSBTWTIDEDROTFLSJCLOL(VLJC) [Robert Glenn Plotner <] (No Subject) ["P. Henry" ] Check It Out! (NJC - YET) ["Eric Taylor" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 04:23:53 -0500 (EST) From: "Mark T. Klempner" Subject: facts P. Henry wrote: she also included me in some of her songwriting sessions and one song I participated in writing was "Both Sides"... Sorry, P. Henry, you've just lost all credibility with me. Even songwriters of minor integrity consider it a collaboration if someone else participates in any way in the creation of a song. I once heard David Foster say that if someone is in the same room with him when he writes a song, he considers that a shared composition. Anyway, other stuff you're saying doesn't ring true to me either. The last time I felt this way in my gut was when someone emailed me about emailing Microsoft in order to receive $5,000 and trip to Disneyworld. Please take your hoax somewhere dumber. Mark in Chapel Hill NP The wiring in the walls. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 04:43:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Mark T. Klempner" Subject: Christmas in my Soul (NJC) Mark in Seattle wrote: It started with a bizarre bus accident that happened here in Seattle several weeks ago. A passenger shot a public transit driver while a city bus was crossing a high bridge. The bus went through the guard rail and over the side, damaging an apartment building on the way down. The driver died on the roof of that building, the assailant turned the gun on himself & one of the passengers also died. It was disturbing. Now we have bombs in Iraq and a Congress that apparently has no regard for the will of the American people. Mark in Chapel Hill writes: and the NRA pushing for easier access to guns even as stuff like this is happening. Thanks for posting the laura lyric; it's chillingly beautiful. I hope you're able to find some holiday peace so as to start the new year off with a positive feeling. "You know it never has been easy . . . . " ps CATBOS is my favorite LN album ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:13:00 +1100 From: "Goodwin" Subject: Re: world of joni mitchell >> From: Mark-Leon Thorne >> To: joni@smoe.org >> Subject: Will The Real Joni Mitchell Please Stand Up? >> Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 1:38 AM >> >> Through all this clarification of JM's 1968 LP, Song To a Seagull, I just >> remembered that my very first album of Joni's was an album that I have >> since read was only released in Australia in the early '70s called, "The >> World of Joni Mitchell" but, on the cover, it just read, "Joni Mitchell". > >> Mark >> Canberra That was also the first album of hers that I bought too and I think it was part of a series the record company had of all kinds of artists and music with 'The World Of' at the start of the title. It was an early compilation of the best from Blue and Ladies of the Canyon I think and was certainly a good showcase for her talent at the time. For collectors it might be interesting, but in hindsight I'd rather have had the other two titles separately. Compilations have their uses, to get new interest among the more casual buyer and that achieved the purpose here. I bought my copy when I was living in New Zealand around 1971 and it was pressed there and on the reprise label. No date was shown and there were no sleeve notes, or mentions of which albums the tracks had been on originally. Side 1: Big Yellow Taxi, Woodstock, All I Want, Both Sides Now, Chelsea Morning, I Had A KIng Side 2: Carey, The Circle Game, California, Song to a Seagull. That Song About The Midway, Night In The City RS 5260 was the record number - reprise a division of Warner Bros I have never seen a CD of the same, but it could exist. Happy hunting Paul G Sydneyside ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:05:52 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Kalk Subject: Newbie intro/top5/music biz/tv threads Hi, I am a newbie on this list. Thought I would intro myself with comments on a few recent threads. Generally, I am a frequent lurker -seldom poster. I generally try to keep it shorter than this when I post. Top 5 Albums for me: 1. John Hiatt - 'Walk On' 2. Joni Mitchell - 'C&S' 3. Steely Dan - 'Katy Lied' 4. Bob Dylan - 'Blood on the Tracks' 5. Beatles - 'Abbey Road' The music business( and by business I DO mean Industry): Kakki wrote>>I don't think her tone is so much arrogance as it is cynicism and distaste for how the system works.<<<<<<<<< One musician acquaintance of mine active in several bands, he finally quit music, went to work for the post office. He was disgusted with the treatment that original material got. He said you could only be successful in the 'music business' if, quite simply, 'you are willing to write songs that sell advertising time.' You have to admit though the system does recognize critically acclaimed people like JM, Dylan or Hiatt, but only after they build an alternative fan base that communicates other than through the mass consumption routes. It used to be word-of mouth and small clubs. Now add to that the internet and you've got even better ways of focusing people on their likes. Television - Try NOT watching any at all for 3.5 to 5 yrs. I did once and the world and interpersonal relationships seem very different, esp after you start watching tv again. At that point tv acting shows itself for what it is - very bad. I found myself saying, 'thats not how real people are at all' ...I keep thinking I must do that again sometime...but not sure if I could wean myself totally from talking heads news shows, PBS, and Drew Carey Show. :) During the time that I was not watching tv is the time when I got turned on to Joni and Steely Dan and first saw John Hiatt in a bar here in Indy shortly after he had recorded a 1st album. Know the Prine lyric?: 'Blow up the tv, throw away the paper' try it for few years-- your life perspective changes. regards to Bokkonon>> noticed we have admirations other than SIQUOMB. Enough for now, Mike in Indianapolis. (aka naptown, Indy, Indianoplace, circle city) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:25:48 -0600 From: Diana Duncan Subject: Re: facts Mark wroteabout P. Henry's facts: >Sorry, P. Henry, you've just lost all credibility with me. >Anyway, other stuff you're saying doesn't ring true to me either. I'll agree with you Mark, P. Henry either was trying a joke or is severely demented. I'm afraid this list knows too much about Joni's life to believe any of his fantasies. Personally, I daydream about "hanging out" with Joni but most of the time I know the difference between reality and fantasy. On a personal note, I sure am enjoying keeping up with all the posts now that finals are over. And I've been enjoying the top lists of 98. I wish I could go out and buy all those listed.. Wouldn't that be a collection! I really like that we all have such varied tastes. Diana, (getting ready to brave the mall crowds!! Aie!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 11:40:55 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: facts In a message dated 12/19/98 4:25:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, klempner@email.unc.edu writes: << Anyway, other stuff you're saying doesn't ring true to me either. >> Well, I disagree. I am the one who encouraged Pat to post that letter to the list. The things he's describing DO ring true because I live in Detroit and am very familiar with the clubs and musicians he's talking about. Pat, please tell us more. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:47:38 -0800 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans Deb Messling wrote: > I would be very interested to hear other non-US views of the > impeachment issue. Do you all think we're complete morons? Absolutely! ;~) Americans are always trying to dam sex What're y'all hoping to harness? Fact of life: Sex has been like water for eons...if something gets in sex's way, sex goes 'round it ;~D Susan L.A. Honey McBabe-Blonde Dayz ;~) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:32:27 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans At 08:47 AM 12/19/98 -0800, you wrote: >Deb Messling wrote: > >> I would be very interested to hear other non-US views of the >> impeachment issue. Do you all think we're complete morons? > >Absolutely! ;~) Americans are always trying to dam sex Too bad the recipe book is done. We could have introduced impeach melba. Heather ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:34:44 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: world of joni mitchell - -----Original Message----- De: Goodwin Para: joni@smoe.org Fecha: Sábado 19 de Diciembre de 1998 5:16 AM Asunto: Re: world of joni mitchell >>> From: Mark-Leon Thorne >>> To: joni@smoe.org >>> Subject: Will The Real Joni Mitchell Please Stand Up? >>> Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 1:38 AM >>> >>> Through all this clarification of JM's 1968 LP, Song To a Seagull, I just >>> remembered that my very first album of Joni's was an album that I have >>> since read was only released in Australia in the early '70s called, "The >>> World of Joni Mitchell" I bought this album in Florence in 1980. It may have been released in all Europe. My LP is English. WallyK, prepearing his end-of-address to the list. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:20:31 -0500 From: Linda Worster Subject: holy days VLJC >Joy to this world..... > >- -Laura Nyro > >It's been an odd holiday season for me. I usually try to keep a >positive attitude for the holidays, keeping in mind the spirit that was >the original motivation for all of it. I've been having some difficulty >this year. It started with a bizarre bus accident that happened here in >Seattle several weeks ago. A passenger shot a public transit driver >while a city bus was crossing a high bridge. The bus went through the >guard rail and over the side, damaging an apartment building on the way >down. The driver died on the roof of that building, the assailant >turned the gun on himself & one of the passengers also died. It was >disturbing. Now we have bombs in Iraq and a Congress that apparently >has no regard for the will of the American people. So keeping the >holiday spirit has been a struggle. > >Haven't had much to say lately. Sorry to take up bandwidth with this >but it sort of feels good to get it off my chest. > >Mark in Seattle > Mark- thanks for the Laura Nyro song. I can just hear her singing it in my head. In fact, I think I'll go get my LP of it and listen. And thanks for your thoughts. This holyday season is a strange one for me too. What a horrible incident there in Seattle... I've been vacillating between overwhelming gratitude and love for my family of friends- and despair when, during lunch, I happen to turn on the live coverage of the bombing in Baghdad. What a world...where I can sit in my peaceful living room and watch death raining down on other humans who, like me, only want to live and love... And the impeachment insanity.... How to maintain hope in the face of all this. I turn back to the overwhelming love and gratitude part... I send heart felt good wishes to you and all here in Jonidom. Linda "No tanks have ever rumbled through these streets. And the drone of planes at night has never frightened me. I keep the hours and the company that I please." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:22:51 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans So how can UK and US ignore the UN but Iraq cannot? IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/18/98 10:36:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > artwear@ncweb.com writes: > > << ssein should be taken > down but, I feel this bombing shit is ridiculous! Step back and look at it > this way: Other than antagonizing with his cat & mouse games, Hussein has > not made any moves of aggression lately. >> > > Sorry, but denying the UN arms inspectors access to sites he agreed to allow > them access to IS an act of aggression. > Paul I - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:49:36 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: facts The one thing that confuses me is that I've always heard that Joni wrote "Both Sides Now" in Philadelphia, at Larry and Joy's house, around 1967. (Did I ever tell anybody that my brother-in-law passed up a chance to meet Joni at Larry and Joy's house? He always brags about it, although it's kinda weird to brag about *almost* meeting someone). > Well, I disagree. I am the one who encouraged Pat to post that letter to the > list. The things he's describing DO ring true because I live in Detroit and > am very familiar with the clubs and musicians he's talking about. Joy be to you, and a jolly Wassail! ~Deb Messling ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:12:00 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: world of joni mitchell njc not that anyone would care, but on my previous post i meant to write end-of-year address, not end-of-address. freudian slip? am i unwittingly considering moving, leaving the list, killing myself? mmmm ... intriguing ... wallyk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:18:47 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Christmas in my Soul (NJC) >Mark in Chapel Hill writes to Mark in Seattle: > >Thanks for posting the laura lyric; it's chillingly beautiful. I hope >you're able to find some holiday peace so as to start the new year off >with a positive feeling. "You know it never has been easy . . . . " > >ps CATBOS is my favorite LN album We talk about Laura here frequently, but Mark's posting of the lyrics to Christmas In My Soul brought back so many memories of when I first bought this album in Christmas 1971. I played it constantly. Even though New York Tendaberry is my sentimental fave Laura album, I think Christmas And The Beads of Sweat is her absolute masterpiece. I miss her - she left us far too soon. Kakki NP: Beads of Sweat - "and we all looked out to God although he is the color of the wind" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:58:20 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) Hypocritical irresponsible Republicans Colin asked: > So how can UK and US ignore the UN but Iraq cannot? Because we are sovereign and all knowing, and authorized by God to do as we please. Lori, with tongue firmly planted in cheek but angry as hell at the U.S. Congress ... San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:03:07 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: joni slagged In the spirit of recent debates on this list, a note that the latest issue of Musician mag, with George Martin on the cover has a letter from a reader that begins, I bristled with anger when I read Joni Mitchell's comment that "{sampling is} the art of the channel changers, where its intent is as chopped up as the minds that perhaps it appeals to" (Interview, Dec '98)..... It goes on to defend rap and then notes that the interviewer compliments Joni's use of sampling. Joan's making waves again! A little trivia for y'all.... Randy happy solstice ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:48:08 -0500 (EST) From: "Mark T. Klempner" Subject: Jean Cocteau and Joni In his journal (Journal d'un inconnu) Jean Cocteau writes about a particular kind of artist who is able to run faster than beauty. I think that describes Joni. Like the way she finds a strange guitar chord and then beauty catches up to it, and it sounds beautiful to us. Beautiful as in compelling, poignant, pensive, or in some other way full of meaning. I wonder what it's like to find these things before beauty gets to them! I also wonder if Joni has gotten into Cocteau; I think she would love him. He had a lot of trouble with his celebrity but figured out a way to deal with it that left him very magical. At the very end of his journal he has a list of little sayings he made up, probably as rules for himself. Some of them are cool. Here's a few: Do not rail against the inaccuracies printed about you. They are your protection. Ne pas relever les inexactitudes qu'on imprime sur note compte. Elles nous protege. * Run faster than beauty. Courir plus vite que la beaute. * Allow the power of the soul to grow as fragrant as the power of sex. Arriver a ce que la puissance d'ame devienne aussi flagrante que la puissance sexuelle. * Kill the critic within. Be persuaded only by that in art which speaks violently to the sexuality of your soul. By that which gives you an immediate and spontaneous moral erection. Tuer en soi l'esprit critique. En art, ne se laisser convaincre que par ce qui convient violemment au sex de l'ame. A ce qui provoque une erection morale immediate et irreflechie. * Anything of any importance cannot help but be unrecognizable, since it bears no resemblance to anything already known. Ce qui importe ne peut etre que meconnaissable puisque sans aucune ressemblance avec quelque chose de deja connu. * Fear idolization like the plague. The idol will be covered over, the non-idol uncovered. Craindre la tabouisation comme la peste. Le tabo sera recouvert. Le non-tabou decouvert. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 00:06:23 -0500 From: "Jennifer McCall" Subject: Joni singing with Seal? I saw a clip of a video of Seal's with Joni in it. Is this true that she sang with him? Does anyone know what song (and/or album) this is on!?!?!?!?!?!??!? If you do, could you e-mail me at dwntwnvnus@aol.com Thanks, Jennifer McCall "-They talk like they know you, they don't know you." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 21:40:12 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Glenn Plotner Subject: NJCSIQUOMBDJRDIMHOCMIARSBTWTIDEDROTFLSJCLOL(VLJC) With all due respect to Don, I think he is misleading you with regard to the codes used on this list. You're a newbie, so folks are going to jerk you around. LH (List Hazing). When I joined, I was forced to decipher the meaning of these mysterious messages on my own. This is what I've come up with, and I'm passing it along to all in the hopes we will put an end to all this devisiveness and partisan politics. NJC -- Nasty Jealous Carping SCJ -- Smug Contentious Jabbering VLJC -- Very Loud Jocular Conniption CMIARS -- Crushed Monkeys In A Raspberry Syrup (my cookbook submission) DJRD -- Dance Joni! Rumba! Dance! SIQUOMB -- Suddenly I Quit Upchucking On My Blouse DED -- Dead Elf Disposals (Joni penned this song after reading an expose on Santa's Sweatshop; sequel to "Magdalene Laundries") C&S -- Crosby & Stills (used by Nash haters) TI -- "Tasty Intern" Popular DC mall-store IMHO -- Ignatz Mouse Has Odor (I'm getting tired of these frequent underground attacks. If you've got a problem with me, reply off-list, damn it.) BTW -- Bite The Weasel (Liz Phair album) LOL -- Look, Our Lurker! (You'll only see this if we can see you. And for godssakes, put on a robe or something.) ROTFL -- Rolling Over Tottering Freakin' Loudmouth (said of Bob-fan hecklers) Getting my adrenals checked, Ignatz Mouse == Ignatz Mouse's Tape Trade Archive and Seriously Disturbed Humor http://members.xoom.com/rabidfox Thought Experiments, The Metaphysical Think Tank http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thoughtexperiments _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 06:57:43 -0000 From: "P. Henry" Subject: (No Subject) On Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:32:40 TerryM2442 wrote: >Ok, you've baited me. Are you saying that you are the Richard she's referring >to?? >Either way, your stories are fascinating- why not post them to the list so >everyone can enjoy them? I feel guilty being the solo recipient to such a >feast. >I've recently worked on Urge For Going and always wondered if she double >tracks the intro on the "Misses" CD. Do you know? >So, do you still perform? I take it you aren't in Michigan anymore. > >Terry, looking forward to reading more > hi again, terry, ok, I've posted it to the list so you can stop feeling guilty... *L* no, I'm not richard... but you can imagine, perhaps, how it felt the first time I ever heard that line... she wrote so many songs like that, even on her first album... "there's a man who sends her letters, he is waiting for reply, he has asked her of her travels since the day they said goodbye" Joni stayed on the coffeehouse "circuit" about two years longer than she had to... there were record company execs who followed her around the country and were always coming around during her sets, trying to get backstage to get her to sign a contract, whom I had to field for her, keeping them out of the dressing room cause she didn't want to talk to them... she told me how strongly she felt about this... she didn't want to sign what she called an 'Elvis' (standard) contract... (ie: x# of singles/albums per year) because she was an artist and she wrote what she wrote when she wrote it and that was that! she expressed this on the "Miles" album: "No one ever said to Van Gogh, "Paint another 'Starry Night', man!... He painted it... that was it!" She was Also followed around the coffeehouse circuit by men... many men from every walk of life... men who left jobs and schools and lives just so they could sit behind a mug of coffee and listen to her sing! To be honest, this was unique in the 'folk' world... something one might have expected more in the rock crowd... *L* but then Joni Mitchell was and is TRULY unique... This muse is an enchantress!!! to be honest, I've never heard "Misses"... hard to obtain her music in this part of the world... (I live on an island near japan) (and, no... I don't perform anymore) ...but if you think she's double tracking she probably is... always has... why stop now? *G* please feel free to write and ask whatever... makes it easier... since there's so much, if I just started story telling, it could get really long and maybe boring... hope that hasn't already happened... *S* pat Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 02:16:47 -0500 From: "Eric Taylor" Subject: Check It Out! (NJC - YET) Joni lovers, I sure hope you don't feel spammed by my posting this info... Get your music in the Liquid 4.0 Music Showcase At http://www.liquidaudio.com/showcase the way you want it. You'll get music that is CD quality and downloadable to your PC direct from the Web. You'll need our new Liquid Music Player 4.0, which you can download for free at http://www.liquidaudio.com/downloads It's got great new features including dramatically improved audio quality and customized faceplates from your favorite artists and labels. Simply visit http://www.liquidaudio.com/downloads and click Free Download Music Player 4.0 Now. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #517 ************************** There is now a JMDL tape trading list. Interested traders can get more details at http://www.jmdl.com/trading ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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