From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #508 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, December 11 1998 Volume 03 : Number 508 JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re[2]: Chieftains (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Top Five Albums (NJC) ["Winfried Hühn" ] Top 5 albums (and honorable mentions) [evian ] All-time favourite albums [Rob Jordan ] NJC: Top 5 albums [Howard Wright ] top 5+ Cher [paul.graham@sunderland.ac.uk (GRAHAM Paul)] Absolutely none at all [paul.graham@sunderland.ac.uk (GRAHAM Paul)] Re: Top Five Albums [AzeemAK@aol.com] RE: runners up (NJC) ["Philip" ] Re: top 5+ Cher [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Absolutely none at all [catman ] Re: Joni Slagging Other Artists [catman ] Re: Worst Albums [catman ] Re: Fave albums [catman ] Re: Joni Slagging Other Artists ["M & C Urbanski" ] NJC Top 5 of all time ["Goodwin" ] Re: Joni Slagging Other Artists [catman ] top 5+ big thanks [Mary Becker ] slagging P.S. girly guile ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Joni Slagging Other Artists ["Philip" ] Re: NJC (Actually 1/5th Joni content) - New poll! [LRFye@aol.com] Top five albums [Michael E Hawthorne ] Re: All-time favourite albums (NJC) ["Philip" ] Re: Dylan cant sing: thoughts from a lurker [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Dylan cant sing: thoughts from a lurker [catman ] Top 5 Albums ["John M. Lind" ] Re: NJC (Actually 1/5th Joni content) - New poll! [jan gyn ] Re: NJC (Actually 1/5th Joni content) - New poll! [Jerry Notaro ] Re: NJC (Actually 1/5th Joni content) - New poll! [Randy Remote ] Re: slagging P.S. girly guile ["Don Rowe" ] (NJC) Top 5 all Time and Best 1998 ["John Wasak" ] Re: slagging P.S. girly guile ["Kakki" ] SJC:Staying in touch/Happy Cooking Joni [Chilihead2@aol.com] Re: slagging P.S. girly guile [luvart@snet.net] Re: Top 5 ever [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: slagging P.S. girly guile ["M & C Urbanski" ] Personal Top 5 ever -Reply [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Re: Personal Top 5 ever -Reply [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: NJC (Actually 1/5th Joni content) - New poll! [jan gyn ] NJC Alanis [catman ] Re: NJC Alanis [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Passions, was Re: Fave albums (NJC) [LRFye@aol.com] Re: Re: NJC Alanis [Marilune@aol.com] NJC more trouble [catman ] neighbour [catman ] Re: neighbor ["M & C Urbanski" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:03:47 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Chieftains (NJC) Jessica wrote: The Chieftans record was pushed back to January. I heard an advance of it last week. The record on the whole is pleasant enough. My fave track (Joni's) is unfortunately also the track that sounds the least...congruous. The rest of the record sounds like the Chieftans playing *with* a bunch of pop musicians. If it's as enjoyable as 'The Long Black Veil', the last record they made with a bunch of pop musicians, I for one will be looking forward to it! I also have had the privelege of seeing these gentlemen live, and it was loads of fun - it was in a concert hall, and during the quieter moments of the show, I looked up and down the row I was seated on and saw hundreds of feet tapping in unison. Way cool!! Bob M. in SC NP: Today's Christmas CD - A Charlie Brown Christmas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:25:01 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Top Five Albums (NJC) 1. Hejira/Shadows and Light (tie) 2. Eli and the 13th Confession -- Laura Nyro 3. Delirium -- Capercaillie 4. The Early Tapes -- Level 42 (defined the term "BritFunk" -- they should have stuck to this kind of material) 5. Love and Peace (A tribute to Horace Silver) -- Dee Dee Bridgewater Winfried, who's finally installed ICQ on his system: #25388615 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 02:20:58 -0600 From: evian Subject: Top 5 albums (and honorable mentions) Narrowing this down to five is like Sophie's Choice, but here goes nothing: 1. Joni -- Blue. C&S is probably my fave Joni album, but Blue is what got me into Joni, and the first time I heard it was an experience I will never forget, so Blue is the one I can't forsake. Blue, C&S, Hejira, HOSL, and DED are in my top 15, but Blue is the one Joni I think I will always have to keep with me. 2. U2 -- The Joshua Tree. "The Unforgettable Fire" is my all-time favorite song, but Joshua Tree is their album that moves me the most... I had nothing to do this evening since I am on holidays, so I listened to both to see which one is better IMO, and when I got to "Red Hill Mining Town", I realized that Joshua Tree can't be beat! 3. Kate Bush -- The Red Shoes: I love this one, and I never tire of it. 4. Genesis -- Genesis: Again, timeless for me, especially "Home By The Sea". 5. Cure -- Disintegration: The Cure at their best, even though I can't seem to memorize the words to the title track. Honorable mentions (or, the rest of my list) Prince -- Purple Rain X -- More Fun in the New World Hole -- Live through this Stevie Nicks -- Rock a Little Fleetwood Mac -- Rumours Joni -- C&S, Hejira (seems to be more of a fave as I grow older.. in ten years, it COULD replace Blue), HOSL, DED. New Order -- Technique U2 -- Unforgettable Fire Cure -- Kiss me, Kiss me, Kiss me Mary Chapin Carpenter -- Come On, Come On Madonna -- Like a Prayer Fleetwood Mac white album -- "Crystal" is my second-fave all-time song. Anita Baker -- Rapture JT-- Hourglass I didn't include greatest hits packages or boxed sets because that opens a whole other bag of worms (LOL, or whatever that saying is!) This is what I would take with me on the desert isle I will never get to, and I am still not that sure of my top five, but it's the best I could do! How about when the list gets slow like it did a few weeks ago, we post our top 20, and force ourselves to order these honorable mentions? Cheers, Evian np: Sugarcubes "Life's too good" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:09:54 +0000 From: Rob Jordan Subject: All-time favourite albums Well, here's the wannabe critic's top 5, kind of boring, but... #1 (by a mile) Van Morrison - Astral Weeks. Simply stunning. #2 Blue. Hejira's probably a greater achievement, but Blue's my old friend. #3 Miles - Kind of Blue. Kind of cool. #4 Marvin - Let's Get It On/What's Going On. A twofer (Philip cheated, so can I) #5 Jeff Buckley - Grace. Lover, you should have come over; now it's too late. Now, a bit more fun, the underdogs top 5. These don't register in your average critic's poll... #1 Laurie Lewis and Tom Rozum - The Oak and the Laurel. Yee-haw. #2 Little Feat - Dixie Chicken. About a fat man in the bathtub. With the blues. #3 The Cream of Al Green. Rocks my soul. #4 Jane Siberry - When I Was a Boy. This is good enough for the real top 5. #5 Jimmy Webb - 10 Easy Pieces. Culmination of an amazing career. Even with this ruse, I'm still brokenhearted to leave out PJ Harvey/To Bring You My Love, John Martyn/Solid Air, Richard Thompson/Bright Lights, Neil Young/After the Goldrush, Emmylou/Wrecking Ball, Dar Williams/The Honesty Room, much more Van eg It's Too Late To Stop Now, Irish Heartbeat, Veedon Fleece, No Guru, Trio Bulgarka/The Forest Is Crying, Salif Keita/Soro, Youssou N'dour/Set, Ry Cooder, Randy Newman, The Watersons/For Pence and Spicy Ale, Eliza Carthy, and on, and on... Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:05:09 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: NJC: Top 5 albums Not an easy choice! Choosing artists/composers first: I would *have* to have some Joni - which means Hejira. I would *have* to have some Steely Dan - which means Aja I would *have* to have some Debussy - I've got a multi CD set, the complete piano works, which I love to bits. Simple great recordings, so I'd take that. I would *have* to have some Beatles. Tricky choice - probably the White album, though Revolver is also very tempting ... Now, with one choice left I start to panic! I would *like* to take some Neil Young - probably Tonight's The Night. I would *like* to take some Zappa - probably Civilisation Phaze III, or maybe Make A Jazz Noise Here I would *like* to take some Miles Davis - Bitches Brew or Kind of Blue. I would *like* to take some Thelonious Monk - Brilliant Corners These are all possibles .... but I think I've just decided that my last choice would be: Le Mystere Des Voix Bulgares - not sure which one. Quite probably vol. II, but maybe vol. IV which I bought a few days ago and is also stunning. This music has brought tears to my eyes many times. Powerful stuff. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:48:09 GMT From: paul.graham@sunderland.ac.uk (GRAHAM Paul) Subject: top 5+ Cher Well that's a hard one. OK, well it has to be thus; Passion Play - Jethro Tull Deep Purple in Rock It's all coming back to me - David Crosby Night Ride Home Melissa Etheridge- First Cher appeared on the Lottery show a few months back in the tattiest pair of jeans I've ever seen, her crotch was gaffer taped, and you could tell she did'nt give a flying fig! I don't know who is buying this CD, but it is probably the same people who buy all the Spice girls and All Saints, my 9 year olds love it! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:20:49 GMT From: paul.graham@sunderland.ac.uk (GRAHAM Paul) Subject: Absolutely none at all I had a day home sick yesterday, I woke with a throbbing head and bad guts, yes I'm sure you all wanted to know that, any way, the point is I experienced the very best and the very worst ( how about a new classification for the JDML ?) As I lay in front of a roaring gas fire, I watched Great Expectations, an old David Lean classic version of the Dickens novel, and thought to myself, "this is best, this is why I hate all these hey yoh mother f... type films, like Bruce Willis, and all the rest, I mean I was'nt born in Victorian times, but I love the language this is truly magnificent. So after it finished , Ophra Witney came on with the worst prog I have ever seen! "I earn 125K but I'm still in debt", and these people were sobbing their hearts out because they spend their way through more than they earned, and were 20k in debt. I thought hang on, I owe more that that, I have at least 25k pounds debt, through my own choosing, and I don't think that is particularly bad, having 5 kids, and an ex wife, plus expensive hobbies, and earning a 5th of what they do. Then this self help guru started bleating on about the past and how once you let go of the past you will have more than you ever need, stop trying to compete with your parents, work mates etc. I suppose they are appealing to the lowest C.D. like Jerry Springer does. What is my point? I know that I can speak to you as a group rather than a lot of strange people round here who love all this bilge! Sorry for the rant Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 06:22:14 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Top Five Albums In a message dated 11/12/98 00:44:48, IVPAUL42 writes: << Neil Young's first album is the self-titled one I described. "Everybody Knows This is Nowhere" followed it and was his first backed by Crazy Horse. >> OK Paul, it's a fair cop! I originally didn't even say I was "pretty sure", because I "knew" - I read the incorrect information in "the History of Rock" years ago, and that stuck in my mind - I even checked it last night in another book, which supported your correct version, and thought the book I now have must have got it wrong! Azeem, tugging his forelock in London ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:34:18 -0000 From: "Philip" Subject: RE: runners up (NJC) I'm leaving Joni out of this, in order to give the others a chance. 6. Jimmy Webb - El Mirage 7. Bobby Womack - The Poet 2 8. June Tabor - Angel Tiger 9. The Beatles - A Hard Day's Night 10 Miles Davis - Bitches Brew Bubbling under: Aja, Electric Ladyland, Let It Bleed, Love - Forever Changes, Kinks - Hits, Weather Report - 8.30, Pat Metheny - 20/20, Derek Bell - Musical Ireland, Bothy Band - Out of The Wind.., The Roches - the Roches, Kate and Anna mc Garrigle - First, Art Pepper - Darn that Dream, The Hollies - Hits, Dusty in Memphis, Aretha Arrives, NRBQ - Peek A Boo, Fela Kuti - Odoo, Elastica - Elastica, Van - Moondance, Chieftains 3, Jennifer Warnes - Famous Blue Raincoat, Little feat - Sailin Shoes, Flying Burritos - Guilded Palace, New York Dolls, I think that's enough to be going on with. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:55:23 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: top 5+ Cher In a message dated 12/11/98 5:48:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, paul.graham@sunderland.ac.uk writes: << It's all coming back to me - David Crosby >> I'm not familiar with this one. Do you mean Crosby's great "If Only I Could Remember My Name," recorded out of the same sessions at the Jefferson Starship's "Blows Against the Empire"? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:41:55 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Absolutely none at all Oprah has done some excellent shows and much good for people. Nothing at like jerry Springer. Today she did an excellent show on grief. Many people's lives have turned around due to her shows. there is no one to compare her to. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:42:07 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni Slagging Other Artists I have never heard Lucinda Williams(only heard of her thru JMDL). What sort of music is it? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:42:19 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Worst Albums Joseph-the one that immediately springs to mind is Not A pretty Girl-Ani Dfranco. I cannot say it was bad, i just didn't like it. I listened oncve and couldn't wait for her to shut up! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:42:34 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Fave albums > > > there has to be something appealing about the music played on the radio or > else it wouldn't be popular. a friend said to me after i said that, "ew, you > sound like one of THEM" like i had gone to the dark side or something. but > music is music, no matter where you are. you are right mariana- all sorts of people like all sorts of music and all sorts of people dilsike all sorts of music. In all sorst of ways it just not nice to say all sorts of negative things about all sorts of people and all sorts of music that upsets all sorts of people and makes all sorts of people think that all sorts of people have their heads up their.... > > > -mariana - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:54:54 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Joni Slagging Other Artists - ---------- > From: Anne Madden > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Joni Slagging Other Artists > Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 12:00 AM > > I am glad that someone finally had the balls to address this issue (sorry I > inadvertently deleted the last 2 posts - I think it may have been Catman who > brought this subject up in response to another post excusing Joni's > behaviour i.e. Joni critizing other artists. > > I agree that just because Joni critizes other artists' doesn't mean she's > right! > Much as I am a big fan of Joni's and have been for years, she shows no class > when > she constantly tears other artists' apart. Good as Joni is, there are other > very good singer/songwriters/musicians out there, male, female, young and > not so young. > > Anne I'm glad this discussion is coming up! I've been going through a major Boho dance lately! I was even thinking of leaving the list cuz I'm sick of Joni's arrogance! My cousin (whom I went to the concert with) & I had a big discussion on this topic. She said there is no greater a fall than that from a pedestal! I think Joni should be flattered that young (women) artists give her so much credit. Not to mention they are keeping her name alive in this generation. Watch MTV and you will hear young artist throwing her name into their "influence list". What a great compliment! I think it's ironic and funny that she sings "I'm a runaway from...the whinny white kids." No, you've only become one! I've also been contemplating her song Turbulent Indigo. What does she really know about living in Turbulent Indigo? Yeah she struggled in the beginning-gave up her daughter in poverty yada yada yada. She's got a lifestyle that allows her to travel, how many homes does she have? How much $$$. Enjoys her daughter NOW without ever having to sit up nights with a sick kid, going though the agony of adolescence and all the shit parents have to deal with in raising a child! She considers herself an artist first and yet she's an impressionistic copy cat! She has the art world at her feet only because she is famous and has the bucks! Artists like me are "going like virgins to the grave"! I can even design a Joni t-shirt because it's "copyrighted"! I'd love to accommodate all the shirt ideas that ran through here. About Joni's prints: How unprofessional! Go and look at any print from an artist from Van Gogh to anybody. Are the frames included in these prints NO! One more thing then I'll shut up, Look at Joni's career over the past decades. Her early songs were simple, some with only 3 cords. She became more elegant and sophisticated as she grew musically. I think the same process is going on with the likes of Sheryl Crow and Alanis Morrisette just to name a few. Are they the future generation Jonis? I'm done, I feel better. Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:31:47 +1100 From: "Goodwin" Subject: NJC Top 5 of all time Well, we won't be short of ideas for Christmas presents now, will we? Some of the titles were new to me, one which intrigued me the most was Carly Simon's 'Letters Never Sent' Must have missed this release; how recent is it? I won't be tempted to add my runners-up, but when this all dies down I wonder if someone would like to do an analysis of the most popular picks and issue a table? Say 5 points for first down to 1 for fifth; maybe in a couple of weeks time. Great to see the range of tastes too and so many of the ones I had considered myself ended up in others' lists, like Rubber Soul and Anticipation etc. Very enjoyable to see what others like when they are JM music lovers. Paul G Sydneyside ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:07:46 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni Slagging Other Artists Wow Marilyn that took some guts! You'd better get your flame proof nighty on! Glad you feel better. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:25:18 -0500 From: Mary Becker Subject: top 5+ big thanks I've been reading the top 5 lists and other discussions with great interest. It has taken me days to figure out my top 5 and I still have the feeling I've overlooked something! Here goes: 1.Hejira- Joni Mitchell a tough choice, but this was it. 2.Graceland-Paul Simon 3.Rubber Soul-The Beatles 4.12x5-The Rolling Stones 5.tie:Saturate Before Using-Jackson Browne/So Far-CSN&Y(cheating, I know! but I love the cover too and would want some of Joni's artwork if I were stuck on that island!) Now for the big thanks. Early this week I received the Video Tape Tree #3 in the mail from Ashara (so quickly!) and just want to thank everyone involved. I was really impressed with how well it is put together, and know it takes the effort of many folks to accomplish. I was so moved by most of the clips, but especially the one on the Cavett show. This must have been the appearance the day after Woodstock, and the reason she missed it, right? Anyway, thanks to everyone, and especially Ashara who was patient, friendly and fast! Hope I can contribute something eventually. Happy holidays and new year, Mary NP:So Far CSN&Y-yeah, I had to hear it NOW! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:09:50 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: slagging P.S. girly guile And another thing...isn't that Joni posing in the nude on For the Roses? Don't throw stones Joni! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:35:33 -0000 From: "Philip" Subject: Re: Joni Slagging Other Artists I thought everyone, not just Joni, was slagging the current breed of "new Joni's". Here's one from today's Independent in London. "Alanis More Upset" and a week or two ago in the same paper "Jewel - The Lilith Fairy" Hope this helps, Philip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:51:13 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC (Actually 1/5th Joni content) - New poll! My top 5, based on how they've withstood the test of (my) time: 1) Hejira 2) Madman Across The Water - Elton John 3) Every Picture Tells A Story - Rod Stewart 4) Mud Slide Slim And The Blue Horizon - James Taylor 5) Whatever's For Us - Joan Armatrading Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:01:30 -0600 (CST) From: Michael E Hawthorne Subject: Top five albums Big Band Theory - Carla Bley Five Leaves Left - Nick Drake Hejira - Joni Look to the Rainbow - Al Jarreau Songs for Distingue Lovers - Billie Holiday ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:58:12 -0000 From: "Philip" Subject: Re: All-time favourite albums (NJC) Rob wrote: >#4 Marvin - Let's Get It On/What's Going On. A twofer (Philip cheated, so >can I) Thanks for the compliment Rob. I did'nt realise I was so influential. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:06:49 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Dylan cant sing: thoughts from a lurker My view is simply that Jimmy Durante, Maurice Chevallier, Victor Borge, and George Burns are all people who cant sing who sang for decades and made much money and fame for doing so. there are lots of ways to sing. Operatic quality isnt the only way. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:52:51 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Dylan cant sing: thoughts from a lurker Well I don't know about the first two but the last two were comdeians. I am sure they didn't sell records of just them singing! Borgia is very funny-we have a couple of vids of his. I thought the first two were actors? Didn't Mauurice sing Thank Heaven For Little Girls?(not exactly a pc title nowadays). MDESTE1@aol.com wrote: > My view is simply that Jimmy Durante, Maurice Chevallier, Victor Borge, and > George Burns are all people who cant sing who sang for decades and made much > money and fame for doing so. there are lots of ways to sing. Operatic quality > isnt the only way. - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:27:48 EST From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Please don't Panic! There is no video #3!! In a message dated 12/11/98 9:32:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, mjbecker@adelphia.net writes: << Now for the big thanks. Early this week I received the Video Tape Tree #3 in the mail from Ashara >> Mary, you are very kind. I just want to clarify to the list that Mary received the Video Tape Trees #1, and #2. The SAME tape trees that most of you already have in your possession. I know what can happen if someone feels they have been left out, so....there is NO video #3.................(yet!) Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:00:50 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Joni on Music Blvd. Blue, Lucinda, Dylan, etc. In order to help you with your holiday shopping, we're giving you 3 CDs for $30! Buy now! http://p0.com/r.d?vh2Ayy1gk=musicblvd/cgi-bin/tw/5088_0_mrkt/3for30/welcome.txt Jerry np: This Christmas - Ann Hampton Callaway ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:16:03 -0500 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Top 5 Albums Boy this took some serious narrowing-down(and I'm still not sure if I missed anything, but: 1) Jon Anderson - Olias Of Sunhillow 2) Frank Zappa/The Mothers - We're Only In It For The Money 3) Joni - DJRD 4) John Hartford - Mark Twang 5) FreeWorld - You Are Here runner ups are kind of cheating, but I can't help it. I've to include Billy Joel-Streetlife Serenader because "The Entertainer" is just sooo great! John~ NP "You" Yoko Ono(No, I'm not kidding) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:52:09 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: NJC (Actually 1/5th Joni content) - New poll! My fave scream is Iggy's at the start of 'T.V. Eye' from 'Funhouse' circa 1970. - -jan >Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: ><< P.S. Re: Who's Next - Daltrey's shriek in "We Won't Get Fooled Again" > is the best Rock n Roll Scream ever! > >> >Better than Lennon in the opening of "Mr. Moooonlight"? >Paul I > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 10:55:24 -0800 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: Joni Slagging Other Artists At 08:54 AM 12/11/98 -0500, M & C Urbanski wrote: >I think Joni should be flattered that young (women) artists give her so >much credit. And who says she isn't? She lashed out at the record industry. And she has commented on some of the much-less-talented imitators. But she has been very giving of her time and energy to others who were "on their way up," like Shawn Colvin and Seal. >Not to mention they are keeping her name alive in this >generation. Watch MTV and you will hear young artist throwing her name >into their "influence list". I recall that Joni was very complimentary towards Janet Jackson, who's surely at the top of the MTV list for "keeping Joni's name alive." >I think it's ironic >and funny that she sings "I'm a runaway from...the whinny white kids." The lyric is: "I'm a runaway from the *record biz*...." I always thought that she was referring to the "teenybopper" recording buying segment, not the group of "the next Joni Mitchell" musicians, when she sang "whiny white kids." >I've also been contemplating her song Turbulent Indigo. What does she >really know about living in Turbulent Indigo? Yeah she struggled in the >beginning-gave up her daughter in poverty yada yada yada. She's got a >lifestyle that allows her to travel, how many homes does she have? How much >$$$. Enjoys her daughter NOW without ever having to sit up nights with a >sick kid, going though the agony of adolescence and all the shit parents >have to deal with in raising a child! I suggest that unless you've been in her shoes, you really don't know "what she knows about living in Turbulent Indigo." You seem to be equating Joni's homes, her income, and her lifestyle to happiness and contentment. While I dream that it would be nice to have multiple homes and travel on a whim, I don't believe that it would make me immune to life's turbulent times. In fact, Joni's inner struggles may be even greater *because* of the situation. Think about all the hangers-on, the agents, the wannabees, and the associated pettiness and insincerity. Everyone wants a piece of her. So she writes some songs about it and is quoted in interviews and it comes across as bitter or even "slagging." I think she's entitled, and I'm not going to condemn her for being honest. Just because she's had financial success doesn't mean that she can't know about personal struggles and how to deal with them. >Look at Joni's career over the past >decades. Her early songs were simple, some with only 3 cords. She became >more elegant and sophisticated as she grew musically. I disagree. Her early songs were not the three-chord wonders which have been a staple of "Top 40" tunes. Right out of the chute, Joni was already miles ahead with her imagery and sophistication. STAS, her first album, is very complex musically. Later she added more instruments and layers of sound but she has never been "simple." Her music has evolved, sure, that's part of what makes her such a great artist. But she didn't start out singing "silly little love songs" and then graduated to bigger and better things. Her level of sophistication was *always* ahead of the pack. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:59:32 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: NJC (Actually 1/5th Joni content) - New poll! jan gyn wrote: > My fave scream is Iggy's at the start of 'T.V. Eye' from 'Funhouse' circa > 1970. > -jan > > >Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: > ><< P.S. Re: Who's Next - Daltrey's shriek in "We Won't Get Fooled Again" > > is the best Rock n Roll Scream ever! > > >> > >Better than Lennon in the opening of "Mr. Moooonlight"? > >Paul I Mine is John Lennon, "I've got blisters on my fingers!" Jerry np: Peter, Paul, and Mary - A Holiday Celebration ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:12:33 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Please help ... Sandy Owen on CD (NJC) I have a friend and co-worker who is looking for any material available on CD by Sandy Owen. I know there are some fans out there on the jmdl ... so please help if you can. Thanks in advance. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:20:18 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC (Actually 1/5th Joni content) - New poll! I always thought that was Lennon, too. Turns out (through interviews) it was Ringo (favorite scream) > Mine is John Lennon, "I've got blisters on my fingers!" > > Jerry > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:08:26 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Joni Slagging Other Artists Marilyn writes, in response to Anne ... >Joni (SNIP) shows no >class >> when >> she constantly tears other artists' apart. Good as Joni is, there are >other >> very good singer/songwriters/musicians out there, male, female, young and >> not so young. I don't specifically remember Joni 'trashing' anyone by name. Her gripe, which I'll admit is grating and repetitive, has not been about other artists, but how the music business advertises, markets, packages and handles them. The empty suits and the PR writers are the ones touting the latest waif as "the next Joni Mitchell". And that's who's getting under her skin. That's who she lashes out against ... in her lyrics as well as interviews ... "how long? how long? Short-sighted businessman". This is the chorus I hear, not a personal attack against any of those more commercially successful etc. Sure, she's lambasted the overall quality of popular music, and cited it's precipitous decline since the heady days of the late 60s and early '70s. But again, I see no personal attacks in any of this, just a frank, if somewhat jaded, observation by a mature artist. >I was even thinking of leaving the list cuz I'm sick of >Joni's arrogance! Oh heavens! I can only hope that you choose to keep listening to Joni's music. That's really the only reason we're all here, no? >I think Joni should be flattered that young (women) artists give her so >much credit. Not to mention they are keeping her name alive in this >generation. Watch MTV and you will hear young artist throwing her name >into their "influence list". What a great compliment! I have much the same problem with this kind of praise as you have with the frames being included in Joni's lithos. IMHO, many of these young artists bandying Joni's name about are doing nothing but playing the same 12-bar blues progressions, in standard tunings, singing with the downbeats, with lists and cliches for lyrics, and showing absolutely no 'real' influence of Joni's music, except maybe that they've heard that her name is now hip to mention on MTV. > She considers herself an artist first and yet she's an impressionistic >copy cat! She has the art world at her feet only because she is famous and >has the bucks! Artists like me are "going like virgins to the grave"! I >can even design a Joni t-shirt because it's "copyrighted"! I'd love to >accommodate all the shirt ideas that ran through here. > >About Joni's prints: How unprofessional! Go and look at any print from an >artist from Van Gogh to anybody. Are the frames included in these prints >NO! > Interesting points, but since I've never imagined myself as an art critic or afficianado, I see no reason to start now ... though I think Joni's paintings probably won't be hanging in the Guggenheim any time soon -- with or without frames. >She <> became >more elegant and sophisticated as she grew musically. I think the same >process is going on with the likes of Sheryl Crow and Alanis Morrisette >just to name a few. Are they the future generation Jonis? > I think Sheryl Crow is probably the future generation's Bonnie Raitt, more than Joni. Though growing, she's still too straight-ahead R&R ... not that there's anything wrong with that. Alanis ... a flash in the pan, a phenomenon of her time, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. I fully expect a tongue-lashing for saying so, but I feel better now that I have. If I was to pick the next generation Joni, Sarah Mac, Shawn Colvin or Mary Chapin-Carpenter fit the bill better. Remember, Joni in her biggest days was never a super-star. At least these three younger artists are writing interesting melodies with well-thought out lyrics. It's a start. Take care ... Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:17:48 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: slagging P.S. girly guile Marylin writes ... >And another thing...isn't that Joni posing in the nude on For the Roses? >Don't throw stones Joni! > Actually, if Joni had posed in hotpants, string bikini top,"Glamour Shots" lipstick/hair/nails, fishnets and stilletto platforms ... now that would be some stone-throwin'! ;-) Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:37:06 -0500 From: "John Wasak" Subject: (NJC) Top 5 all Time and Best 1998 Top 5 of All Time 1.)(Tie) Rubber Soul - The Beatles Revolver - The Beatles (Both showing them at their peak) 2.) (Tie) Hejira - Joni Mitchell Blue- Joni Mitchell (Both pure perfection) 3.) Rosemary Lane - Bert Jansch (Great guitar, great voice. = Acoustic excellence) 4.) Blue Afternoon - Tim Buckley (His peak, folk-jazz extraordinaire) 5.) Pink Moon - Nick Drake (Short, but concentrated) Best of 1988 1.) Dirt Floor - Chris Whitley (Another short one, but worth it) 2.) Hell Among the Yearlings - Gillian Welch (Spookily Appalachian) 3.) "Gold Dust" Live at the Royalty - Sandy Denny (Gone too soon) 4.) Up - R.E.M. (At last!) ("Murmur" should really be in my Top 5) 5.) Taming the Tiger - Joni Mitchell (Not nearly my favorite of hers, not even of the '90's, that goes to "Night Ride Home", still it's here because there's some great tracks on it.) Happy holidays, John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:26:17 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: slagging P.S. girly guile >And another thing...isn't that Joni posing in the nude on For the Roses? >Don't throw stones Joni! > >Marilyn She wasn't so much "posing nude" as conveying one of her first of many ways of saying "kiss my ass" to the record biz et al. She has also spoken of the painting she did for the album showing a horse's backside that she wanted for a billboard on Sunset Blvd. Geffen would not go along with it. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:45:03 EST From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: SJC:Staying in touch/Happy Cooking Joni Hi! Just wanted to say hello and that Mrs. Chili and I would love to send holiday cards to the wonderful listers we met in person or found in cyberville over the course of this wonderful year for Jonifans. So, if you want to receive one or just want to stay in touch, please send us your address, even if you think we already have it. As this is the traditional season for gift giving, not to be Saint Chili, but maybe we could think about supporting Les and Wally for all they've done to bring together Joni's tribe? I know that I have made some friends and some enemies on this list. To the people I have offended. I apologize. I apologize to you David and to you Marsha. Please forgive me for my transgressions. This is meant sincerely. I don't think the tribe should be warring amongst itself, but I do encourage healthy debate which means not attacking each other personally, but giving each other the respect and the room to express ourselves. Wishing you all healthy and happy holidays and a prosperous New Year! Happy Cooking Joni! - -Chili ( and for Mrs. Chili) :-) :-) Ps. Wally wishing you continuously improving health. And a special thank-you to Kenny and Simon. And to Ashara and Duane for hosting two great parties!! If you would like to receive a card, please send us your address. It will be kept strictly confidential. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:00:46 -0500 From: luvart@snet.net Subject: Re: slagging P.S. girly guile At 12:26 PM 12/11/98 -0800, you wrote: >She wasn't so much "posing nude" as conveying one of her first of many ways >of saying "kiss my ass" to the record biz et al. Gee, I always thought she was indicating that she "bared her soul" by posing nude for the FTR album (to go along with the lyrics). I like your "kiss my ass" explaination, though :-) Heather ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:19:38 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Top 5 ever ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Top 5 ever Author: "Philip" at fdinet Date: 12/10/98 4:52 PM 1. Bob Dylan - Blonde on Blonde 2. Marvin Gaye - What's Goin On/ Let's Get it on Double CD. 3. Hissing of Summer Lawns 4. Beach Boys - Pet Sounds 5. Nuggets - Lenny Kaye's compilation of 60's punk. Great Pick Philip! And while you're at it, make sure the Nuggets you take on the deserted island is the re-released box set that came out this year. Which brings up an interesting point...if we can claim "box sets" as an "album", my picks would be drastically altered. Or maybe our picks can include (1) box set - or maybe "best box set ever" as a new thread...It's a typical situation in these typical times, too many choices... Bob M. in SC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:16:39 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: slagging P.S. girly guile - ---------- > From: luvart@snet.net > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: slagging P.S. girly guile > Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 4:00 PM > > At 12:26 PM 12/11/98 -0800, you wrote: > >She wasn't so much "posing nude" as conveying one of her first of many ways > >of saying "kiss my ass" to the record biz et al. > > Gee, I always thought she was indicating that she "bared her soul" by > posing nude for the FTR album (to go along with the lyrics). I like your > "kiss my ass" explaination, though :-) > > Heather I must say you have all been gracious over my boho dance (so far), I expected to get my head ripped off. I like the "kiss my ass" too, I think I'll pose for the art industry God! then maybe I'll get somewhere with my art. I'm not frustrated much! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:47:29 -0800 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Personal Top 5 ever -Reply Thinking and thinking about this one, I've come up with: 1. For The Roses - Joni Mitchell 2. Hejira: Joni Mitchell 3. Live Box Set - Springsteen lots of good stuff, but the rendition of "Jersey Girl" is near and dear to my heart) 4. Diamonds and Rust - Joan Baez 5. The Next Voice You Hear - Jackson Browne And...since it's MY desert island and MY fantasy, 6. The Amazing Mets - 1969 Championship Series Commerative album. What really stumped me about this list was that there were a lot of albums that I liked but had only one or two songs that I enjoyed. What about a top 10 listing of songs you could hear over and over again? I've never grown tired of: 1. Jersey Girl - B. Springsteen 2. Sky Blue and Black: J. Browne 3. Winds of the Old Days: J. Baez 4. Blonde in the Bleachers: Joni 5. Lesson in Survival: Joni 6. Amelia, (live version w/ Pat's solo) 7. Catskill Serenade: D.Bromberg 8. Crazy Cries of Love: Joni 9. Thunderroad - B. Springsteen 10. Paprika Plains - Joni MG Valentinsson Cash Applications Supervisor Valley Media, Inc. 530-661-7837 mgv1@valley-media.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:00:27 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Personal Top 5 ever -Reply MG suggests ... >What about a top 10 listing of songs you could hear over and over >again? > >I've never grown tired of: > Hmmm ... top of my head, and fidgeting in my chair waiting for the whistle to blow, as it were ... 1. 'More Than This' -- Roxy Music 2. 'Alma Matters' -- Morrissey 3. 'Us and Them' -- Pink Floyd 4. 'Furry Sings the Blues' 5. 'The Chinese Cafe' 6. 'Coal Miner' -- James Taylor 7. 'New York Minute' -- Don Henley 8. 'Oh Very Young' -- Cat Stevens 9. 'Born to Run' -- Frankie Goes to Hollywood 10. 'Only the Lonely' -- The Motels ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:05:06 EST From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Re: Personal Top 5 ever -Reply I once recorded the song "Cant Explain" over and over the entire side of a 45 minute tape. I have never tired of this song. I have also taken the song Passion Play that joni does and done the same thing. marcel./ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:33:40 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: NJC (Actually 1/5th Joni content) - New poll! Another favorite scream was at a dorm room party when the host found a bong spilled on his pillow. - -jan >(favorite scream) > >> Mine is John Lennon, "I've got blisters on my fingers!" >> >> Jerry >> > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:01:19 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Personal Top 5 ever -Reply Somewhere from West Side Story Go West -Pet Shop Boys Something In The Way He Moves-by whoever Honey-Bobby Goldsboro I'm On Fire - Bruce Sprinsteen Could It Be Majic -Donna Summer Conquest of Paradise-Vangelis Fernando-ABBA Eternal Flame-Bangles Brain Damage(I think about the lunatic on the grass) Pink Floyd SMUT-The SDkyhooks Will You-Hazel O'conner There are loads but these cam e to mind. Included nothing from Joni or Carly as I would have loads and loads of them! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 00:24:28 +0000 From: catman Subject: NJC Alanis Someone might find this amusing: http://www.brunching.com/toys/toy-alanislyrics.html - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:40:58 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: NJC Alanis This is great, Colin! I entered my Religion teacher, and this is what I got: "Why" Books, prayers, crucifixes Why God, Why? Prayers, pens, Fr. Stirnimen Why God, Why? What have I done to deserve this indigo horror? Surrounded on all sides with the Hell of Fr. Stirnimen Like a Edgar Allen Poe character, I'm wordy and alone Why God, Why? Tests, books, quizzes Why God, Why? Fr. Stirnimen, quizzes, crucifixes Why God, Why? What have I done to deserve this indigo disaster that is my life? Surrounded on all sides with the Hell of Fr. Stirnimen Like a Edgar Allen Poe character, I'm wordy and alone Why God, Why? What have I done to deserve this indigo misery? Surrounded on all sides with the Hell of Fr. Stirnimen Like a Edgar Allen Poe character, I'm wordy and alone Why God, Why? Why God, Why? Why God, Why? Why God, Why? Why God, Why? At 12:24 AM +0000 12/12/98, catman wrote: > Someone might find this amusing: http://www.brunching.com/toys/toy-alanislyrics.html ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:32:11 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: Passions, was Re: Fave albums (NJC) Don Rowe wrote: > Interestingly enough, I got a call from the Arbitron ratings people a > couple of nights ago. Several weeks ago, Arbitron called me, too. They invited me to participate in a week long survey, which I agreed to do. I received a "diary" in the mail, in which I had to write down all the radio stations I heard each day, the times I heard them, and where I heard them (home, work, car, other). This had to include radio I heard even if I hadn't chosen it. I was surprised to learn how often I switch stations when I do listen to the radio ... (Should I have been surprised? Probably not, as I have determined there's not a damn thing worth listening to in this town!) The whole thing about wore me out, and I've barely listened to the radio since! I did receive $2 cash for my efforts, though ... Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:56:30 EST From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: NJC Alanis Ah the Brunching Shuttlecocks. my favorite site ever. they are extremely funny. my favorite are the ratings. i also love going through their back issues for stuff like "The Luke Side of the Force" and "The Death of Grunge". good stuff. - -mariana ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 01:16:54 +0000 From: catman Subject: NJC more trouble More trouble from the arseholes upstairs. I just walked out and got thumped in the face. U fortunatetly I froze(like I awlays used to) and didn't beat his fucking brains. Still the police have just arrived and are now upstairs but they won't arrest him-just give him a formal warning. I have to say |I don't know why i bothetr with the police-broken widows, car damage, assault and nothing is ever done. There are even supposed to be laws now against harrassment of gays but they aren't acted on. - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 02:38:49 +0000 From: catman Subject: neighbour I am not feeling good at all. I am still shaking and feeling sick but I feel so angry and ashamed. I don't know if I am more angry at the neighbiur, Ian, or me. I feel I should have retaliated instead of freezing-but freezing is an automatic response with me. it is how I coped when a child and being sexually or physically assaulted-I just 'left'. I have been thinking about what i would have preferred to do-which is retaliate but on thinking more i realise that if i did I would go for the kill. I would want to beat the crap out of him and rip him to shreds the fucker. damn shit head fuckhead ignorant fucking stupid little man. since feb ruary we have had to put up with this crap, having already left the other flat for similar reasons. Constant fucking noise, homophobic abuse yelled out the windows at us. Shoutinmg and screaming at all hoiurs. No one does a fucking thing. it is supposed to be against the law now to cause harrassment in public housing and also to harrass gays. But the fucking police and local authority just pay lip servicve to it and do fuck all about it. it makes me feel impotent-powerless. i cannot ratliate and yet the fucking law and authroites do nothing to help. I am bloody glad guns are not available here cos i would use one. I am coming up to 40 next wednesday and this fucking crap has never stopped-all thru school, at home, and then in the world at large. even thru this fucking pc I get fucking bigot Xtians haranguing me and spouting theur evil at me, unbidded bu they can't keep their bloody mouths shut. They hate in the name of God. and they think it is me who is the abomination!!!! what blood they have on their hands. The only reason i don't just go ape and kill the shit is because I don't want to go to jail not because i am good and think I shouldn't. I am sick of making excuses for people and their outrageous behaviour, sick of not being respected, sick of not being seen as human jsut sick to death of it all. Exctly how much therapy does one need to cope with all this? None i recklon. they are the ones who need the fucking therapy-like an elctric pole upp them or something. I think i have finally quit fooling myself and become an athiest too. I just can't fathom that one. those who profess a faith in Jesus are such nasty people tho they swear blind they are not and that they are only following the bible. if they weren't fucking bigopts they wouldn't believe such filth anyway. jesus was supposed to be a man of love and all they cand o is preach hate. thansk for being there. I shall get to a meeting tomorrow-there are gay groups around if i look in the where to find. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:26:28 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: neighbor - ---------- > From: catman > To: jmdl > Subject: neighbour > Date: Friday, December 11, 1998 9:38 PM > > . But the fucking police and local > authority just pay lip servicve to it and do fuck all about it. > it makes me feel impotent-powerless. i cannot ratliate and yet the fucking law > and authroites do nothing to help.. > They hate in the name of God. and > they think it is me who is the abomination!!!! what blood they have on their > hands. > I think i have finally quit fooling myself and become an athiest too. I just > can't fathom that one. those who profess a faith in Jesus are such nasty people > tho they swear blind they are not and that they are only following the bible. if > they weren't fucking bigopts they wouldn't believe such filth anyway. jesus was > supposed to be a man of love and all they cand o is preach hate. > thansk for being there. I shall get to a meeting tomorrow-there are gay groups > around if i look in the where to find. Oh Colin I feel so bad. I can relate to the police & authority shit, they don't do much when wives are beaten either-been there! It sucks cuz they're probably cheering on this shitty behavior. As far as Christians, please don't clump us all together. Those that hate in the name of God whether it be racist, homophobia or other religions hide like cowards behind their ignorant interpretations of the Bible. Christ is love! Those are not his people! He would not treat you in that way! Even as a Catholic I get shit from that kind of ignorance, though I don't get beaten over it, it still makes me shake my head and want to puke! Have you ever read the "Joshua" books by Joseph F. Girzone? They're pretty cool & address the issue of hatred in the name of God. There is a major difference between spirituality & religion. By the way one of my favorite songs it Tax Free! It's so right on. Take care, Marilyn ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #508 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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