From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #503 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, December 8 1998 Volume 03 : Number 503 JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: NJC: I'll take a Standard Beauty on Ice, please! [kg@ibm.net (Kenny G] Top Ten cds of 98 [evian ] Re: Facelift T-Shirt [t3100171@student.anu.edu.au (Mark-Leon Thorne)] Re: joni covers [t3100171@student.anu.edu.au (Mark-Leon Thorne)] Re: Stravinsky in DJRD [FredNow@aol.com] Re: The year's Best Music (VLJC) [FredNow@aol.com] Three FREE Videos (NJC) [mann@chicagonet.net] PM Dawn & Joni samplings [Mark-Leon Thorne ] Three FREE music CD's or Videos YOUR CHOICE (NJC) [mann@chicagonet.net] Fave albums (NJC) ["Tyrer, Paul" ] Re: Fave albums (NJC) [catman ] Re: Facelift T-Shirt [catman ] Re: Well mannered JMDL'ers (NJC) [catman ] Re: NJC: I'll take a Standard Beauty on Ice, please! [catman ] Re: Favourite Top Ten Albums (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: Fave albums (NJC) [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: JONI'S ON SALE! MAYBE YOKO TOO! [Jerry Notaro ] Favorites of 1998 [John Lasater ] How Can We Like (BLANK)? Let Me Count The Ways ... (SJC) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: How Can We Like (BLANK)? Let Me Count The Ways ... (SJC [Bob.Muller@] Explanation of Standard Beauty & Yoko (NJC) It's late & I'm ramblin, ramblin, ramBLIN! [] thoughts from a lurker [Bounced Message ] Anita Baker (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Fave albums (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] RE: Top 10 [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] Re: NJC Dylan defended [Randy Remote ] Bay Area blackout [Dreamzvill@aol.com] TTT Lithograph for Christmas present [Claud.Loren.Carter@ccMail.Census.Go] LOOKING FOR A JONIOLOGIST....... ["J.G." ] Re: My 98 Top Ten (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re[2]: Fave albums [Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] RE: Re[2]: Fave albums [p.tyrer@lancaster.ac.uk] Re: Fave albums (NJC) [catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk] Re: JONI'S ON SALE! MAYBE YOKO TOO! [notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu] Re: Facelift T-Shirt [catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk] Re: NJC Dylan defended [guitarzan@saber.net] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 08:13:48 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: NJC: I'll take a Standard Beauty on Ice, please! Hey Bernadette, Thanks for the apology! I just hate to see personal attacks on this list (or things that appear to be), there have been several, and they've never accomplished anything except to bring down the general mood here and slow down the otherwise regular influx of interesting, quality posts. you wrote: By the way, I find it rather intriguing that you never addressed the "standard beauty" issue. I know it's a trite old saying, but I really think that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so I didn't want to immerse myself in the debate :-) FWIW, I personally don't see anything wrong with the term "standard/conventional beauty" -- it conveys an image, which is the goal of language/communication. It gets the point across. I don't find it disparaging in any way. -Kenny On 12/7/98, Bernadette Gallagher wrote: > Then you chime in with "takes one to know one," and there goes the > neighborhood. I AM sorry for the "she must be.." crack. It was sophomoric, and I should have thought about it more before I sent it. Although I guess if Laura was as chained to the male-chauvinist neighborhood I relegate her to in my first paragraph, she wouldn't mind at all being called a "standard beauty" Isn't that funny? Well, like you said, there goes the neighborhood. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:33:21 -0600 From: evian Subject: Top Ten cds of 98 I know I am going to forget something, but this my top 10 albums for the year: 1.) Wes -- Welenga : This one has entered my top 10 of all time. Great from start to finish. This is the one album that never fails to put me in a good mood, and affects me in ways that I can't explain. Thanks Ashara! 2.) Stevie Nicks -- Enchanted : I don't usually put greatest hits/boxed sets in lists like this, but since this is Stevie, I can't resist. I have loved Stevie since I was 8, and even though there is little from the Rock a Little album on here, it is still amazing! Great to finally have "Gold" on CD! 3.) James Taylor -- Hourglass : A 97 release, I believe, but didn't get it until February. His best, IMO! Is there anything better than "Boatman"? Damn, I wish he would plop something out every year! 4.) Lauryn Hill -- The Miseducation... : AMAZING! Thank you listers for making me check this one out! I can't get enough of it! "Lost Ones" is simply the best. 5.) Hole -- Celebrity Skin : I fall in love with this album more and more each day. Almost as good as "Live Through This", but is actually better in some ways, if that makes any sense. The line "You want a piece of me?/ Well I ain't selling cheap" is my favorite of the year. Hmm, maybe I should rank this higher... 6.) Joni -- TTT : I love this album, especially "Harlem in Havana" and "Facelift". However, it has actually been a good year for music, so the ranking is lower than it should be! 7.) Madonna -- Ray of Light : Took a while to grow on me, but damn, I love it now. "Power of Goodbye" and "Substitute for Love" is Madonna at her best. 8.) Natalie Merchant -- Ophelia : When she left 10,000 Maniacs, I was disappointed. Now I am saying "10,000 WHO??" 9.) Skinny Puppy -- remix dystemper : If you are a fan, and like industrial music, check this out. The remix of "Rodent" is out of this world. 10.) Jewel -- Spirit : I cannot believe I like this album because I couldn't stand the first one. However, this is great! Honorable Mention -- Liz Phair -- Whitechocolatespaceegg : "polyester bride" makes the whole thing worthwhile! AND, I gotta tell you all... I enjoy the Alanis single "Thank You"! Yep, I ain't afraid to say that I like Alanis! Cheers, Evian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:57:32 +1000 From: t3100171@student.anu.edu.au (Mark-Leon Thorne) Subject: Re: Facelift T-Shirt Here are my picks for t-shirt slogans; 1. The times you impress me the most are the times when you don't even try. 2. (For the women) I am a woman of heart and mind. 3. (Front) You just picked up a hitcher. (Back) A prisoner of the white lines on the freeway. 4. History falls to parking lots and shopping malls. 5. (Front) There's comfort in melancholy... (Back) ...when there's no need to explain. 6. We're only particles of change, orbiting around the sun. 7. (Front) Drive your bargains, win your medals, Fuck your strangers. (Back) Don't it leave you on the empty side? 8. You can't hold the hand of a rock and roll man. 9. Guesses based on what each set of time and change is touching. NP Vicarious by Strawpeople. ************************************************************************* "Only a dark cocoon before I get my gorgeous wings and fly away" - Joni Mitchell. ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:57:43 +1000 From: t3100171@student.anu.edu.au (Mark-Leon Thorne) Subject: Re: joni covers My pick, out of the ones I've heard, would be, Caroline Lavelle's cover of A Case of You. It takes a strong voice to carry this one off. It's avery polished version. Mark Canberra ************************************************************************* "Only a dark cocoon before I get my gorgeous wings and fly away" - Joni Mitchell. ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:08:00 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Stravinsky in DJRD david.wright@oberlin.edu" wrote: >>just now I noticed for the first time that Jaco's bass line in "Talk >>To Me" -- in the prominent melodic figure just before Joni's voice >>enters -- is an exact quotation of the opening bars of The Rite of >>Spring (the bassoon part) This was one of Jaco's signature quotes, and he used it often -- in Joni's, Weather Report's, and his own music. Another frequent quote he used was Jimi Hendrix' Third Stone From The Sun. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:10:14 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: The year's Best Music (VLJC) RMuRocks@aol.com wrote: >>2. Kyle Eastwood - "From Here to There" Of course I bought it for the >>Joni, but this record swings! Much more consistent than Hancock's >>"Gershwin's World" IMO. What did you find inconsistent on Gershwin's World? (Which, admittedly, would most likely top my favorite ten of 1998.) - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 04:19:33 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Three FREE Videos (NJC) This is like MusicBoulevard except I believe you can only use your credit card. No checks. You can get 3 FREE videos from their freebie list, includes Titanic, Cats the Musical, Mary Poppins, Armageddon, etc. Shipping is FREE. You only pay $1. No kidding! Limited time offer until supplies run out. Hurry and shop! http://www.800.com/ Laura P.S. Be sure and play the scratch-off game when you have finalized your order. It'll be on your final page..... your OREDER RECEIPT page at the top. Read the rules about it on the Home Page. You can win stuff or 1,000,000 instantly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:27:05 +1000 From: Mark-Leon Thorne Subject: PM Dawn & Joni samplings Hey Eric. I have been a fan of PM Dawn for quite some time now and that was compounded when I heard their samplings of Joni. Ways of The Wind is a great song and I agree that they know how to tap into some of Joni's most poignant musical moments. I think it's because Prince Be is also a huge fan of hers. He mentions his loyalty to her in the cover notes of one of their albums (I forget which one). Thier biggest hit to date, Looking Through Patient Eyes mentions, "Joni" in the lyrics but, I'm not sure what the context is. Mark Canberra ************************************************************************* "Only a dark cocoon before I get my gorgeous wings and fly away" - Joni Mitchell. ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 04:32:13 -0600 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Three FREE music CD's or Videos YOUR CHOICE (NJC) OOPS! You can choose 3 FREE music CDs *OR* 3 FREE videos. No Joni but I saw Sarah, Lauryn, and some others that have been mentioned on the list. Here's the info. again: This is like MusicBoulevard except I believe you can only use your credit card. No checks. You can get 3 FREE videos from their freebie list, includes Titanic, Cats the Musical, Mary Poppins, Armageddon, etc. Shipping is FREE. You only pay $1. No kidding! Limited time offer until supplies run out. Hurry and shop! http://www.800.com/ Laura P.S. Be sure and play the scratch-off game when you have finalized your order. It'll be on your final page..... your OREDER RECEIPT page at the top. Read the rules about it on the Home Page. You can win stuff or 1,000,000 instantly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:32:28 -0000 From: "Tyrer, Paul" Subject: Fave albums (NJC) Hi everyone Don't you think it's a bit shocking to realize that some of your fellow Joni-philes have other musical tastes that are... er... not quite of this world... C'mon, I mean, Stevie Nicks (no don't go off on that one again!), Cher?? How can anyone like Cher *and* Joni - it's impossible. OK, I will admit to possessing a copy of Cher's Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves from 1972, possibly the trashiest record of all time. But it was a weak moment and I have never really recovered from that rash buy. And OK, OK I *do* own a copy of that pink Stevie Nicks LP, but I regret it I really really do. It is, looking back, A HIDEOUS ALBUM!! I had been abducted by aliens in bouffant blonde wigs the week before. That *must* have been it. Anyway, here's me favourites this year, with absolutely no regrets. Honest, you will purchase these and never look back. 1. Tori Amos - from the choigirl hotel. Darker than Turbulent Indigo, even, this is a work of genius. 2. Madonna - Ray of Light. What can I say except Cher? schmerr! 3. Burt Bacharach and Elvis - Painted from Memory. Schlock is back and it's never been better. 4. The Cardigans - Gran Turismo. The Cardy's go indie. 5. Massive Attack - Mezzanine. Makes Tori look like a happy bunny. I love Liz Fraser! TTT is OK, Facelift is a masterpiece and there are some other v. good songs on there. But 1. Bring back Klein on bass. 2. Boo Hoo? Boo hoo. 3. Kitty Kitty? 4. Lead Balloon (aptly named) Paul Tyrer Research Associate ESRC Violence, Sexuality and Space Project Institute for Women's Studies, Lancaster University. Tel 01524 594740 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:07:36 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Fave albums (NJC) Really! How can anyone who likes Joni also like Massive Attack and Elvis Costello? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:07:32 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Facelift T-Shirt Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > Here are my picks for t-shirt slogans; > > 1. The times you impress me the most are the times when you don't even try. > 2. (For the women) sexist pig! > I am a woman of heart and mind. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:07:58 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Well mannered JMDL'ers (NJC) I don't like fights. Can I hide behind you Lori? LRFye@aol.com wrote: > Marsha *:o) wrote: > > > "Put 'em up...put 'em up! (a la the Cowardly Lion) > > "If I only had a brain ..." > "A heart ... > > "The nerve!" > > Lori > S.A. - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:07:43 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC: I'll take a Standard Beauty on Ice, please! To me people like Joni, Carly, Barbara are far more beautiful than the Barbi type like Crawford and other models. Saw City of angels the other day-didn't like the film-ridiculous and so much a mans idea-however I realised the Meg Ryan is really a lovely looking woman. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:21:04 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: The year's Best Music (VLJC) RMuRocks@aol.com wrote: >>2. Kyle Eastwood - "From Here to There" Of course I bought it for the >>Joni, but this record swings! Much more consistent than Hancock's >>"Gershwin's World" IMO. What did you find inconsistent on Gershwin's World? (Which, admittedly, would most likely top my favorite ten of 1998.) - -Fred Fred - Maybe it's only because Kyle's been in rotation longer than Herbie, but I find it more accessible, the melodies are more prevalent to my ears anyway, and more rhythmic. And that's not a criticism of "gershwin's world", I think Hancock's strategy was to mix up the sounds, one minute funky Stevie Wonder, one minute Kathleen Battle's flawless soprano, on minute his own interpretive piano. None of it's unlikable, but I do find it inconsistent. But hey, at least I get credit for naming 10 records that were indeed released in '98! ;^D Bob M. in SC, (RMuRocks @ work) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:29:34 -0000 From: "Philip" Subject: Top 10 1. Joni - Taming the Tiger 2. Air - Moon Safari 3. Music Sounds Better With You - ? don't know who sings it but there was no escape from it this summer. 4. Tortoise - TNT 5. Wayne Shorter - Speak No Evil Released in 1965. 6. Cane141 - Scene From 6am 7. Bob Dylan - Albert Hall - acoustic set maybe the guy who shouted "Judas" had a point after all. 8. Lucinda Williams - Car Wheels 9. Terry Callier - What colour is love 10. Beck - Mutation catching up Mercury Rev - Deserter's Songs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:39:34 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Favourite Top Ten Albums (NJC) Author: Anne Madden at fdinet Date: 12/7/98 11:44 PM From #1 to #10 - LUCINDA WILLIAMS - CAR WHEELS ON A GRAVEL ROAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Amen, Anne! + a couple comments, as this was also my CLEAR choice for "best": 1. I referred to the great song "Metal Firecracker" as "All I Ask"-oops! (But it should be named "All I Ask" after all) My favorite lyric this year is "All I ask, don't tell anyone the secrets I told you". 2. My son thought "You took my Joy, I want it back" was "You took my "Jaw", I want it back! (Like "Happiness is the best Spaceship") Bob M NP: REM, "You" from Monster ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:50:58 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: Fave albums (NJC) Paul Tyrer wrote: Don't you think it's a bit shocking to realize that some of your fellow Joni-philes have other musical tastes that are... er... not quite of this world... Heavens no - and viva la difference! What a dull list it would be if we all had the same tastes - "List of the Damned" :^) Anyway, here's me favourites this year, with absolutely no regrets. Honest, you will purchase these and never look back. 3. Burt Bacharach and Elvis - Painted from Memory. Schlock is back and it's never been better. If "Schlock" means melodic, memorable songwriting, clever arranging, and emotional vocalizing, then call me the Schlockmeister of all time!! Bob M. in SC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 09:04:16 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: JONI'S ON SALE! MAYBE YOKO TOO! Laura, Thanks for forwarding the coupon to the list. I always use them and appreciate the list members who think of us. Jerry np: FTR, for the 15th time this week! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:07:34 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Fave albums ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Fave albums (NJC) Author: catman at fdinet Date: 12/8/98 1:07 PM Really! How can anyone who likes Joni also like Massive Attack and Elvis Costello? Colin- You can keep Massive Attack, I'm about 20 years away from having one of those anyway, but Joni & Elvis are the salt & pepper of my musical table. Both are first and foremost brilliant songwiters with a keen eye for the past and their own musical influences. Both rose up tagged to a "type" (Joni to hippie-folk, Elvis to New Wave-Punk) but quickly grew out of it. Both write lyrics that have dual meaning, both delight in experimenting with different styles at the expense of losing audience (Elvis' "Almost Blue"/country period, "The Juliet Letters" w/Kronos quartet, Joni's "Mingus/free-form jazz period). I could go on, but hopefully I've brought you to a greater awareness of the connectivity between these two creators. Bob M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:26:26 -0000 From: "Tyrer, Paul" Subject: RE: Re[2]: Fave albums Plus I think Elvis sings like Joni these days - the kind of half strangled vibrato he lets out in Painted from Memory is v.JM. Paul XX Paul Tyrer Research Associate ESRC Violence, Sexuality and Space Project Institute for Women's Studies, Lancaster University. Tel 01524 594740 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com [SMTP:Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] > Sent: 08 December 1998 14:08 > To: Tyrer; Paul; catman > Cc: 'joni@smoe.org' > Subject: Re[2]: Fave albums > > > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator > _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Fave albums (NJC) > Author: catman at fdinet > Date: 12/8/98 1:07 PM > > > Really! How can anyone who likes Joni also like Massive Attack and Elvis > Costello? > > Colin- You can keep Massive Attack, I'm about 20 years away from > having one of those anyway, but Joni & Elvis are the salt & pepper of > my musical table. Both are first and foremost brilliant songwiters > with a keen eye for the past and their own musical influences. Both > rose up tagged to a "type" (Joni to hippie-folk, Elvis to New > Wave-Punk) but quickly grew out of it. Both write lyrics that have > dual meaning, both delight in experimenting with different styles at > the expense of losing audience (Elvis' "Almost Blue"/country period, > "The Juliet Letters" w/Kronos quartet, Joni's "Mingus/free-form jazz > period). I could go on, but hopefully I've brought you to a greater > awareness of the connectivity between these two creators. > > Bob M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:28:01 -0500 (EST) From: John Lasater Subject: Favorites of 1998 I am not at all bothered by the appearance of Cher and Stevie Nicks on the lists of favorite recordings of the year, although it would be nice if we could stick to recordings that were actually released within last year. (some albums I saw listed were from early in 1997)- I know, picky, picky. Having said that, and well-aware of the fact that there are plenty of great albums released this year I still need to hear, here's my list of favorites: Lucinda Williams, _Car Wheels on a Gravel Road_ Elvis Costello and Burt Bacharach, _Painted From Memory_ Billy Bragg and Wilco, _Mermaid Avenue_ Jeff Buckley, _Sketches for My Sweetheart the Drunk_ Rufus Wainwright, _Rufus Wainwright_ Liz Phair, _whitechocolatespaceegg_ (I just bought this a few days ago, but I love it already) Joni Mitchell, _Taming The Tiger_ Honorable Mentions: Neil Finn, _Try Whistling This_ Sheryl Crow, _The Globe Sessions_ Madonna, _Ray of Light_ (first CD of hers I've ever bought) Marshall Crenshaw, _The 9 Volt Years_ Squeeze, _Domino_ Only heard the Lauryn Hill CD a couple of times, so can't comment, but it received a very enthusiastic response, so I'll have to check it out again. John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 07:31:40 PST From: "Don Rowe" Subject: How Can We Like (BLANK)? Let Me Count The Ways ... (SJC) We obviously agree we like Joni, though we still tussle occasionally over the bits and pieces. But a statement to the effect that, "you can't like Joni and (ARTIST B)! It's impossible!", are inappropriate at best. It also incorrectly assumes that only music that sounds like Joni's will be appealing ... that is, if you like Joni. I say, "Not so." Just as I wouldn't wear the same color every day, or eat kung-pao chicken for lunch every day -- I wouldn't listen ONLY to Joni material everyday. Yes, in fact listers, there are days that go by when I don't play a single Joni song. Now as the gasps of indignation subside from the gallery ... Music is an intimate and personal language. The material that ends up resonating, be it Stevie Nicks, Elvis Costello, Puff Daddy or Mantovani, simply serves to create a new dialect -- as personal to the individual as their fingerprints and genetic markers. And like any language, music is composed of varied parts ... nouns and verbs, adjectives and prepositions. Taste and experience with music are the sentences we make, using our personal musical vocabulary to describe our moods, feelings and memories. My boss was a jerk today ... if that's the case, I'm probably going to reach for 'London Calling' before 'TTT'. It describes my exasperation much more accurately, though it sounds nothing like Joni. And I'm glad it doesn't. So I shall humbly submit that *similarity* in music isn't at all the point in defining musical taste. It is necessity and experience. As wide the berth of our feelings and experience, so will a collection be varied. So how can I like Joni and others ... let me count the ways. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 16:28:05 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Fave albums Bob-my attempt at humour obviously failed! It was my response to some of the musical snobbery displayed. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:04:39 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re: How Can We Like (BLANK)? Let Me Count The Ways ... (SJC Don Rowe wrote: Music is an intimate and personal language. The material that ends up resonating, be it Stevie Nicks, Elvis Costello, Puff Daddy or Mantovani, simply serves to create a new dialect -- as personal to the individual as their fingerprints and genetic markers. And like any language, music is composed of varied parts ... nouns and verbs, adjectives and prepositions. Taste and experience with music are the sentences we make, using our personal musical vocabulary to describe our moods, feelings and memories. Well put, Don! Further to that, whole genres of music as well. Folks can just as easily ask "How can you like country/western & classical?" The lamebrained musical programmers (most of them anyway) seem to say to us 'You can't like more than one type of music' so everything we play fits into that format. I always say, there are 2 types of music, music I like & music I don't like when asked the question "What kind of music do you like"? Bob M NP: The Replacements "I'll be You" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 09:54:50 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Explanation of Standard Beauty & Yoko (NJC) It's late & I'm ramblin, ramblin, ramBLIN! From: mann@chicagonet.net Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 01:58:38 -0600 Hey Bernedette, So sorry my words "standard beauty" got you so hot. Your reactions remind me of my mother who having worked as a proof-reader for Rand McNally for a time would send back my letters (or call me since I lived out of state for awhile) and would circle all my misspelled words and return the letter...not bothering to comment on the content of my letters. Ouch! (Now if I'd only remember to use the spell checker on here!! hahaha) I think one needs to come to a realization that such a thing as "standard beauty" does exist. Thanks Lori for your explanation: referring to the American media and general public's opinion of "standard beauty." If you can come up with a better phrase or word then "standard beauty" that doesn't offend you, please let me know. Anyone? Anyone? But for now, that's what I'll use and what I've heard others relate to. Standard Beauty or Standard good looks applies to men as well. I don't think Michael Angelo's David would have been so widely accepted if he had a beer belly hanging and a big round face. Check out Madonna's VOGUE video....the guys all have a similar "chiseled" look to them. Standard male beauty. Renee Russo has been compared to Michael Angelo's David by a famous photographer, Scullevo (sp?) who has used her often in his shoots. It's "the look"..... "the look" that people like to look at ..... and that sells stuff....proof that "the look" is reality. It's also scientific (and that's what it's called because studies have been done) that people respond in a more positive way to the same kind of good-looking people..........certain facial features like shape of face, how close or far apart eyes are, head shape. And some of the more "famous" movie stars and models all come from this same "mold". It's human nature that the majority of humans like to look at good-looking persons, will put more immediate trust in these people, will assume they are smart and have easier times finding jobs. They get treated better. It's also a FACT that if you don't dress"decent" (for lack of a better word) or look unkempt you will not be treated as well, by the majority of people, as when you put a little more time in your clothing. I put this to the test and it is so true. Go to the store in sweats vs "decent" clothing and a little make-up on the facial canvas. Big difference in the way you get treated. Goes for guys too. My mom's husband cannot throw any of his old clothes out and continues to wear them ragged. He looks like a homeless man and I'm sure the neighbors who are selling their houses hold their breath that he won't walk out when a potential buyer is nearby as the cost of their homes is sure to go down! We won't talk about his old car and what that looks like (thank heavens Mom has her own car) Yet this man is a well known GENIUS as far as his job goes and is sought after by big $$ companies for his knowledge. They know what the man can do and need and want him. They look beyond his appearance. But he can't get anyone to help him at stores he goes into because he looks like an eyesore.....except on Sunday when he's in his suit. And even he admits he gets allot of help on Sundays when he's looking "decent". Why can't everyone get the same treatment? It just doesn't happen. Am I the only one on here that when bringing up the name YOKO to someone immediately gets a sour look on there face. Like, "why did John marry her". You never get that when the subject of, say, Billy Joel marrying Christi Brinkly comes up. Well, maybe the opposite end, you know....."what does she see in him????" It's allot about looks with most people and the standard of what the majority of people perceive as beautiful. I KNOW damn well there are standard beauties and all that, but we're talking about John Lennon's life, not some Patpong droolfest for teenagers. Imagine this: A John Lennon interview, asked about marriage with Yoko: John: Well, she's not a standard beauty, but I love her anyway. [applause from audience] By the way, did anyone ever see the tv interview with Carly, James and Dick Cavette? He did come right out and say she was the homeliest of the Simon sisters. I was so taken aback by the comment that it's the only thing I remember about the interview besides the fact that James said he didn't think Carly was homely. Standards again, I assume. just some reflections and observations Then you chime in with "takes one to know one," and there goes the neighborhood. Kenny, thanks for all YOUR reflections & observations in my defense and that of the list. I guess Laura is one of those "standard beauties" You know, takes one to know one. Your statement reminds me of the Naaaa Naaaa Naaaa Naaaa Naaaa song. Bernedette, at this stAGE in my life I wish to God: I was a STANDARD beauty I had a STANDARD height I had a STANDARD weight and married to president of STANDARD oil Laura ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 09:55:27 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: thoughts from a lurker From: Antman1070@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:25:02 EST Hey Joniphiles - Finally had to offer a few thoughts after lurking so long -- and some of these are from threads so long ago. - -- I never had a problem with the line "big boo hoo" in Man From Mars. Joni wasn't the first to use it. It can be found in the play "Pygmalion" by G.B. Shaw. Henry Higgins, a most erudite sort, tells Liza Doolittle to desist from her "boo hoo hooing." And if it's good enough for one of our greatest playwrights, it's fine for Joni. - -- Bob Dylan is a terrible performer. I'm not saying he didn't write some wonderful lyrics and didn't deserve to be called the "voice of a generation", but he has always been a limited musician, an even more limited singer, and an awful performer -- he can sometimes sell a song with his expressiveness, but he has no range, no timbre, no sustenado, no technique. And do I even need to mention his guitar or harmonica playing? His song writing has always suffered because he must stick to melodies that he can sing, and those are limited melodies. I saw him with Joni and felt strongly that they don't belong on the same bill. He had an excellent band, but they couldn't camouflage Dylan's lack of real musicality, nor could they make up for the fact that Dylan really isn't interested in performing his 'greatest hits' any more than Joni is -but he does it anyway. I never saw a more mechanical performance in my life -- and it was bad mechanics. He performed "Lay Lady Lay", but he did not sing it. The tune wouldn't have been recognizable except for the familiar arrangement and characteristic cowbell percussion. It was an awful performance, but it made no difference to the crowd who were clearly there to see him and not Joni -- their applause and cheers were deafening, and had nothing to do with the quality of his performance. It would be wonderful if Joni toured on her own at smaller venues where we could actually get to experience her as a person, and not as some tiny figure at the end of an oversized hall. I think what most of us want when we attend a concert is to really be in the presence of someone with whom we connect -- it's wonderful that Joni talks to her audience, explains her songs, talks about what's on her mind, plays a list that expresses who she is now. It would be nice to see her beautiful face, too. - -- Someone was asking about an essay a critic wrote back around the time of Hejira in which he asked "Does this Woman Know What She's Singing About?" In the essay, the man mentioned that he has actually cried when hearing Joni's music. He was obviously obsessed with her and was in either in love with her, or wished he WAS her, or both. - -- It's wrong for people to blame Linda or Yoko for the break up of the Beatles. That decision lay with the four lads from Liverpool. It is an unfortunate male tendency to scape goat women with undeserved blame, and Yoko may have even gone so far as told John "leave the Beatles." But ultimately, it was a decision made by the Fab Four. John and Yoko clearly loved each other, but IMHO, her only real talent was for stirring things up. Her poetry was awful -- impaired not only by an incomplete familiarity with the idioms of the English language, but bereft of real ideas or feelings. Her "art" was the same -- most of it was conceptual, not especially well conceived, and ultimately without consequence. Yoko was responsible for semi-interesting experiments like "Revolution # 9" on the White album and lots of other pretentious tripe -- to label it sophistic would be granting it some level of sophistication. An example: one of the best weeks of television ever was the week that John and Yoko were on the bland and sappy Mike Douglas Show. Yoko inspired things were a canvas that all of the guests signed which they would later sell as art, and a broken cup that was being glued together over the week. Said Yoko, "If we can glue this cup back together, we can put the world back together too." Yuck! I remember her short films: they were all of the type that artsy film students make in the name of art. Terrible! And as a singer, she's just irritating -- her music was largely very simple, and not unlike a lot of Japanese bubble gum music. It's no wonder that Bowie would defend her, because Bowie is in the same boat with her -- he's someone whose talent is about generating an image. Bowie at least has the moderating quality of doing it all tongue-in-cheek, the first to flaunt his insincerity. Sorry to be do down on Yoko, who may be a wonderful person and may have inspired Lennon, but we would never know her except for her link with a genius. - -- I am so excited to hear that there may be a recording available of music that Joni made with John McLaughlin. Can anyone inform me? I am not surprised to find out that Joni admired him -- he is my favorite musician after her. It's no surprise that my four favorite guitarists have worked with or admire Joni: Pat Metheny, John M. , Hendrix and Jimmy Page. I'm wondering if anyone knows what kind of connection Page had with Joni -- did she inspire his use of open tunings and the dulicmer on Zeppelin III? Page once said that Court and Spark was his favorite album of all time, and in his recent tour, he still performs "Goin' to California". I'd love to know -- were they ever lovers? I've been playing old Zeppelin again, and proudly -- they may have had many inferior clones who gave heavy metal a bad name, but I love all that testosterone and mysticism in their music. Passionate to an extreme - -- like someone else we know. Jimmy is just a great rock and roll guitarist, perhaps the greatest. - -- Best to all of you! I have enjoyed your posts. Antman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:48:52 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Anita Baker (NJC) If anyone knows, it's this group. Whatever happened to her? Terry, who lives near Motown but hasn't heard anything about her in ages ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:47:30 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Fave albums (NJC) In a message dated 12/8/98 8:58:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com writes: << 3. Burt Bacharach and Elvis - Painted from Memory. Schlock is back and it's never been better. >> Doesn't Bacharach have another new CD out? Anybody familiar with it? I think it contains tracks of various singers doing his old hits, but I'm not sure. For what it's worth, Bacharach had a huge influence on me- I learned to play piano by listening to his songs. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:33:15 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: RE: Top 10 Here's a contribution on this thread from our old "young" friend Michael Yarbrough. He told me it was OK to forward... ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: RE: Top 10 Author: Michael Yarbrough at fdinet Date: 12/8/98 10:56 AM I'm not quite done with mine yet, but right now I'd put it about like this: 1) Lauryn Hill, _The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill_ 2) Liz Phair, _whitechocolatespaceegg_ 3) Lucinda Williams, _Car Wheels on a Gravel Road_ 4) Rufus Wainwright, _Rufus Wainwright_ 5) Outkast, _Aquemeni_ 6) Madonna, _Ray of Light_ 7) Beastie Boys, _Hello Nasty_ 8) R.E.M, _Up_ 9) The Artist, _The Truth_ (from _Crystal Ball_) 10) Elliott Smith, _XO_ Quasi, _Featuring "Birds"_ may sneak in there; I just got it and like it a lot so far. Honorable mentions to, in rough order: Hole, _Celebrity Skin_, Olu Dara, _In the World: From Natchez to New York_; Herbie Hancock, _Gershwin's World_; Joni Mitchell, _Taming the Tiger_; Pearl Jam, _Yield_; Tori Amos, _from the choirgirl hotel_; and Goodie M.O.B., _Still Standing_. I'm also interested in hearing Monica, _The Boy is Mine_ and Big Punisher, _Capital Punishment_ for possible appearances on the honorable mention list. As far as I'm concerned, this is the year hip-hop truly arrived. All that rap bashing I've skimmed in the online archives sounds more than a little reminiscent of circa '50s - '60s rock-bashing by the parents of Joni's generation. Three of my top 10 are straight rap, with hip-hop influence on at least another two. The dominance really shows up in my favorite singles list: 1) Outkast, "Rosa Parks" 2) Aaliyah, "Are You That Somebody?" 3) Hole, "Celebrity Skin" 4) Lauryn Hill, "Doo Wop (That Thing)" 5) Beastie Boys, "Intergalactic" 6) Liz Phair, "Polyester Bride" 7) Madonna, "Ray of Light" 8) Monica, "The First Night" 9) Big Punisher, "Still Not a Playa" 10) Rufus Wainwright, "April Fool's" 4 are straight rap songs, with 2 heavily influenced by hip-hop production. There's nothing from this year that grabs me in the same way Radiohead's _OK Computer_ did in 1997 (_Miseducation_ comes close, but does have a couple of flaws usually absent from an album of the year). Generally I think it was a weaker year for music than last, with almost all of my favorite records being accomplished but not revelatory sets from established artists. Only Rufus Wainwright's counts as a true breath of fresh air. Feel free to forward this to the JMDL if you wish. Hope all is well! - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:32:16 -0800 From: Randy Remote Subject: Re: NJC Dylan defended > -- Bob Dylan is a terrible performer. an even more limited singer, > he has no range, no timbre, no sustenado, no technique. And do I even need to > mention his guitar or harmonica playing? I won't even try to defend Yoko as a musician.... As for Dylan....a terrible guitar player? I think not. He is understated to be sure. He is not a soloist to write home about. But his playing has been studied in Guitar Player Magazine. He has used open tunings for years. A real good example of his strength as an acoustic guitarist is "Good As I Been To You", his album of folk covers from a few years back. Get your neighborhood guitarist to try and play like this. Sure he's no Stevie Ray Vaughn. As for his singing, would his songs and message have been more effective if he had a classically "great" voice ala, say, Aaron Neville? I think he would have been less effective. His voice has been perfectly fit to his songs and persona. Finally, although he is no Stevie Wonder or Toots Thielmens, if you want to check out some truly terrible harp playing to compare, watch one of Alanis Morrisette's live videos. Pee Yew! I suppose I will have to admit that as a performer, Dylan seems to sometimes take pleasure in sounding as terrible as possible. Chalk it up to Gemini perversion. Randy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:57:19 EST From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Bay Area blackout Howdy all! Just heard on the radio - The entire Bay Area, from San Mateo to Napa, is experiencing a major blackout. Just thought I'd let you know - in case you can't reach any of the JMDL'ers there, or if you have family/friends in that area. This is what I call an extreme example of Mercury retrograde!! (Thank goodness it goes direct Dec 11!) :) Have a great day, anyway..... Love, Susan C. (catchin' up on digests.....) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:19:49 -0500 From: Claud.Loren.Carter@ccMail.Census.Gov Subject: TTT Lithograph for Christmas present Hello again, it's me, the needy one. I called the lady from Warner Brothers Records to see if she was/will be able to obtain a TTT lithograph for me to present to my wife as a present. Well, Dorothy, there's no place like home. She WAS able to get one, and said that she was looking at it as we spoke. She said that she would get it in the mail to me for delivery this weekend. Damm, I was/am so happy. Now, the question is, can I keep the secret from my wife for 3 weeks? We were having dinner last night, and I must've had a sh?t eating grin (where did that expression come from anyway!?) on my face. She kept asking what's up, I had to deny things all night long. Now I feel obligated to get the lady at WB Records something as gratitude (her name is Elane Geller, btw). I don't know anything about this lady except for her home address (she lives in Sherman Oaks, CA, and works in Burbank). Is there anything you call can think of? I've thought of a BIG bunch of flowers, bottles of wine (but I don't know if she drinks or not, so I pretty much ruled that out). At a minimum, she's getting a before-Christmas card, and I told her I would send her a picture of the aftermath, but I feel the deep down gut need to do more. She got the painting for me for free, and is mailing it to me at WB's expense. It ain't costing me anything, so I have $$$ to burn, and Ms California is gonna be on the receiving end. Any of the California listers have any ideas? I certainly can't ask my wife to help me pick something out for a woman out west. Loren at the Census Bureau (and happy as a clam (where did that one come from?) and walking in the clouds)) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:50:01 +0000 From: "J.G." Subject: LOOKING FOR A JONIOLOGIST....... Hello everyone, I'm putting together a Joni Mitchell night in New York on January 21st and am looking for someone to add album history, interesting facts, etc to the evening. They should be comfortable if not accustom to speaking in front of people. If in the area and interested please email me @ livingrm@interport.net Thanks and Happy Holidays to all! Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:48:16 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: My 98 Top Ten (NJC) Randy Remote (and also Marcel) named: >10)Sons of Champlin"Live"-These guys could rock the pants off most of >the Bay Area bands of the time, but were underappreciated. This recent >reunion (Grateful Dead Records) finds them as hot as ever. YES! THANK you for clueing us in to this release. Their albums have always been so scarce to find. The Sons of Champlin should forever have a permanent place in the all time top ten. There is NO other group like them. Kakki NP: Fat City - The Sons ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 09:07:34 -0500 From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com Subject: Re[2]: Fave albums - --simple boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: "cc:Mail Note Part" ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Fave albums (NJC) Author: catman at fdinet Date: 12/8/98 1:07 PM Really! How can anyone who likes Joni also like Massive Attack and Elvis Costello? Colin- You can keep Massive Attack, I'm about 20 years away from having one of those anyway, but Joni & Elvis are the salt & pepper of my musical table. Both are first and foremost brilliant songwiters with a keen eye for the past and their own musical influences. Both rose up tagged to a "type" (Joni to hippie-folk, Elvis to New Wave-Punk) but quickly grew out of it. Both write lyrics that have dual meaning, both delight in experimenting with different styles at the expense of losing audience (Elvis' "Almost Blue"/country period, "The Juliet Letters" w/Kronos quartet, Joni's "Mingus/free-form jazz period). I could go on, but hopefully I've brought you to a greater awareness of the connectivity between these two creators. Bob M. - --simple boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 14:26:26 -0500 From: p.tyrer@lancaster.ac.uk Subject: RE: Re[2]: Fave albums - --simple boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: "cc:Mail Note Part" Plus I think Elvis sings like Joni these days - the kind of half strangled vibrato he lets out in Painted from Memory is v.JM. Paul XX Paul Tyrer Research Associate ESRC Violence, Sexuality and Space Project Institute for Women's Studies, Lancaster University. Tel 01524 594740 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com [SMTP:Bob.Muller@fluordaniel.com] > Sent: 08 December 1998 14:08 > To: Tyrer; Paul; catman > Cc: 'joni@smoe.org' > Subject: Re[2]: Fave albums > > > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator > _________________________________ > Subject: Re: Fave albums (NJC) > Author: catman at fdinet > Date: 12/8/98 1:07 PM > > > Really! How can anyone who likes Joni also like Massive Attack and Elvis > Costello? > > Colin- You can keep Massive Attack, I'm about 20 years away from > having one of those anyway, but Joni & Elvis are the salt & pepper of > my musical table. Both are first and foremost brilliant songwiters > with a keen eye for the past and their own musical influences. Both > rose up tagged to a "type" (Joni to hippie-folk, Elvis to New > Wave-Punk) but quickly grew out of it. Both write lyrics that have > dual meaning, both delight in experimenting with different styles at > the expense of losing audience (Elvis' "Almost Blue"/country period, > "The Juliet Letters" w/Kronos quartet, Joni's "Mingus/free-form jazz > period). I could go on, but hopefully I've brought you to a greater > awareness of the connectivity between these two creators. > > Bob M. - --simple boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:07:36 -0500 From: catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Fave albums (NJC) - --simple boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: "cc:Mail Note Part" Really! How can anyone who likes Joni also like Massive Attack and Elvis Costello? - --simple boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 09:04:16 -0500 From: notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu Subject: Re: JONI'S ON SALE! MAYBE YOKO TOO! - --simple boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: "cc:Mail Note Part" Laura, Thanks for forwarding the coupon to the list. I always use them and appreciate the list members who think of us. Jerry np: FTR, for the 15th time this week! - --simple boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:07:32 -0500 From: catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Facelift T-Shirt - --simple boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: "cc:Mail Note Part" Mark-Leon Thorne wrote: > Here are my picks for t-shirt slogans; > > 1. The times you impress me the most are the times when you don't even try. > 2. (For the women) sexist pig! > I am a woman of heart and mind. - --simple boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:32:16 -0500 From: guitarzan@saber.net Subject: Re: NJC Dylan defended - --simple boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: "cc:Mail Note Part" > -- Bob Dylan is a terrible performer. an even more limited singer, > he has no range, no timbre, no sustenado, no technique. And do I even need to > mention his guitar or harmonica playing? I won't even try to defend Yoko as a musician.... As for Dylan....a terrible guitar player? I think not. He is understated to be sure. He is not a soloist to write home about. But his playing has been studied in Guitar Player Magazine. He has used open tunings for years. A real good example of his strength as an acoustic guitarist is "Good As I Been To You", his album of folk covers from a few years back. Get your neighborhood guitarist to try and play like this. Sure he's no Stevie Ray Vaughn. As for his singing, would his songs and message have been more effective if he had a classically "great" voice ala, say, Aaron Neville? I think he would have been less effective. His voice has been perfectly fit to his songs and persona. Finally, although he is no Stevie Wonder or Toots Thielmens, if you want to check out some truly terrible harp playing to compare, watch one of Alanis Morrisette's live videos. Pee Yew! I suppose I will have to admit that as a performer, Dylan seems to sometimes take pleasure in sounding as terrible as possible. Chalk it up to Gemini perversion. Randy - --simple boundary-- ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #503 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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