From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #456 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, November 2 1998 Volume 03 : Number 456 The Joni Tour Pages: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Tour98.html http://www.jmdl.com/articles/tour98.htm ------- Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni and her band [Mary Pitassi ] Re: smoking on stage [catman ] Re: Willy The Shake (NJC) [catman ] Re: smoking on stage -Reply [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Re: Some Vehicle [DSK11 ] RE: Gershwin's World (SJC now) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Dog Eat Dog [David Wright ] Re: Some Vehicle [TerryM2442@aol.com] Joni in SF [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Re: Gershwin's World ["Gerald Notaro (LIB)" ] joni at msg [Kai Wong ] Re: Nietzsche perpectives ["Kakki" ] Re: Willy The Shake (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Re: Joni in SF ["Kakki" ] JONI INTERVIEW (San Fran) PIX [jan gyn ] Setlist? [Green51976@aol.com] Re: Plato , Augustine, and Joni ["John Villasana" ] Re: Plato , Augustine, and Joni [PMcfad@aol.com] Re: Gershwin's World [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: smoking on stage (NJC) -Reply [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Part I: "I took a ferry to the highway / Then I drove to a ponto on plane" [Mary Pitassi Subject: Joni and her band Barbara L. wrote: "She sounded soooooo great! The band--un F ing believable. Larry and Brian were so tight . . . " Yes--my impression exactly. I knew I'd love listening to an evening of Joni's singing and guitar work, but wasn't prepared for how greatly impressed I'd be by this particular group of musicians backing her. I thought they played *extremely* well together, showed depth and innovation, capitalized on one another's strengths, and complimented each other as well as Joni. And while I never let my primary attention wander very far from Joni herself during the concert, I did enjoy noting where one musician or another would enter a song at a particular place, or how one instrument would seem to "play off against" another, to great effect, but with seemingly little effort. These settings really did justice to Joni's work. And, while I may have been somewhat tongue-tied at our (brief) Thursday morning meeting outside the hotel, I'm very glad I got the chance to convey some of these thoughts to her in person. Mary P. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 20:24:01 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: smoking on stage I agree smooking is a disgusting addiction. And I am hooked. But imagine: A tanned burnt blonde hunky farmer leaning against a fence smoking his fag in the hot sun, sweat pouring down his chest and forhead. Sorry i think that is sexy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 20:25:43 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Willy The Shake (NJC) Steve Dulson wrote: > Suze wrote: > > >Timing is everything in life. In these two incredible days, it was the > >stuff that dreams are made of (Colin, that Carly lyric quote was for you!). > > Carly lyric quote? Hmm...wonder where Carly got THAT from???? :) I don't get this remark. i do hope you aren't being rude about Carly. I believe even Joni concedes to her brilliance and superiority. > > > And to the othe Sue, LA that is, WELCOME BACK! I missed you! > > ############################################################## > Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com > "The Tinker's Own" > http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html > "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" > http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:29:03 -0800 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Re: smoking on stage -Reply Jerking around with words, I have to say that I don't think addictions are disgusting. Mostly sad and a burden. And your post did remind that me visiual stimulation is in the eye of the beholder, so there's nothing I can argue about here. >>> catman 11/02/98 12:24pm >>> I agree smooking is a disgusting addiction. And I am hooked. But imagine: A tanned burnt blonde hunky farmer leaning against a fence smoking his fag in the hot sun, sweat pouring down his chest and forhead. Sorry i think that is sexy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:20:29 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni in SF Examiner MG wrote: quoting interview: >JM says: "....Power corrupts and there is too much wanking on secJM >retaries' desks going on everywhere within the record companies and all >the other high places.....It's gotten out of hand. I don't think that men are >entirely to blame. It used to be that women had some consideration for >men's sensitivity to visual stimulation. Just being practical about it. >Women were covered up for a reason. Men are easily excited. (laughs). >It was a kind of courtesy to them...." >It's my fear that this was not entirely tongue in cheek. I don't think she is being entirely tongue in cheek here but maybe a little dated in her observation. There *was* a rash of very colorful, sexual harassment-related scandals in various record company offices a few years back. It was out of hand (no pun intended) for a while there, but, as usual, a few well-publicized and costly lawsuits served to tighten up the ships again! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 15:33:36 -0400 From: DSK11 Subject: Re: Some Vehicle IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > Can you send me some of whatever you smoked before that concert in time for me > to have it for the Saturday night concert in Atlanta? ;>) Don't bring anything, just wait until Dylan's set. Might not happen in Atlanta, but it was sweet smoky near my seats in NY. Haven't had a contact high in a long time (any potato chips nearby??? Now!). Between that, the old familiar songs, the flickering lighters after Dylan finished his initial set (I'd wondered if that was still done at concerts), I felt like I was 20 years old again. Sure don't want to live there anymore, but it was a pleasant visit. This also reminds me that before and during Joni's set vendors dressed as waiters, including the white towel over the arm, were up and down the steps selling glasses of champagne, set on a round tray with the bottle in the center. When it was time for Dylan, those same vendors, minus the towel I think, were up and down the steps selling beer. Interesting to see the difference between Joni and Bob, and their respective fans, displayed that way. Have a great time, all you future concertgoers. Seeing Joni again was magical -- feels like a solid reconnection that's made all recent negative comments and thoughts about her completely unimportant. DShea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:31:45 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Gershwin's World (SJC now) Don't forget Kathleen Battle's gorgeous contribution. Chilling. This record is worth the price for the Joni tracks alone--"The Man I Love" is second only to "Harlem in Havana" in my favorite Joni tracks of the year contest--but the other contributions really round it out. I second all the recommendations. - --Michael NP: PJ Harvey, _To Bring You My Love_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 19:48:00 +0000 From: David Wright Subject: Re: Dog Eat Dog I'm not sure if I've expressed the following very clearly, but I think the main reason that DED (and some of Joni's other societal-ills songs), though I like it, has never gripped me as many of her other albums have is not the Dolby sound, but that lyrically much of it doesn't really say anything new. That is, I had pretty much figured out well before hearing DED that religious-right televangelists were hypocritical (Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, etc.), mass media is superficial, materialism is bad, etc. -- so my reaction to much of DED is, a tiny bit, "well, DUH!" -- or to put it more nicely, I think in terms of many of Joni's fans she is preaching to the converted on this album, albeit often quite eloquently. By contrast, DJRD, Hejira, Blue and the like astonish me in their insights about relationships and about searching for meaning and about Joni herself. Even compared to some of her other protest/non-confessional songs, like the way she wrestles with complex and difficult social issues so gracefully in HOSL (oppression/liberation of women) and DJRD (colonialism and cultural imperialism -- "...we siphon the colored language off the farms and the streets"; "Walter Raleigh and Chris Columbus come marching out of the waves...") -- conservative televangelism is really an easy target. It's like how in Olympic diving the judges' scores take into account the difficulty of the dive as well as its execution. In HOSL and DJRD, Joni touches on some of the whole ideologies underlying our society -- in her more recent songs, she often stays on the surface. But perhaps in the Reagan years she very reasonably decided that urgency, not subtlety, was of the essence. I of course never heard the album in its cultural context -- the 1980's -- a significant factor. (Not that the problems she addresses on DED aren't still around.) This is not a complaint about the album, really. Just offering an observation/comparison. I like how Ethiopia's lyrics address not only the tragedy there, but the way our culture perceives ("a movie star with a PR smile...") and perpetuates the tragedy. - --David NP: DJRD ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:36:44 EST From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Some Vehicle In a message dated 11/2/98 3:33:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, dskARTS@concentric.net writes: << This also reminds me that before and during Joni's set vendors dressed as waiters, including the white towel over the arm, >> And this reminds me of the elegant white cloth that Brian Blade had placed over his seat. Nice touch. Details, details. Sue me. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:39:11 -0800 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Joni in SF What bothered me wasn't so much the scandal and harassment, but Joni's implication that women used to know better regarding provocative dress. Since harassment has more to do with power than sex, one could dress as dull as dishwater and still get hit upon. Just a real OOB (out of balance) comment IMHO. MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:41:58 -0500 (EST) From: "Gerald Notaro (LIB)" Subject: Re: Gershwin's World On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: > I've been enjoying this new CD as well and was appalled to read the Detroit > Free Press' poor review of it, including the part where they describe > Joni's singing as a Billie Holliday wannabe. Though Joni's singing is a revelation on this cd, I have to say, as a BIG Lady Day fan, she does sound like she is imitating Billie's phrasing. Jerry np: Judy Collins - Both Sides Now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:40:23 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Joni in SF Examiner Joni said: >It's gotten out of hand. I don't think that men are >entirely to blame. It used to be that women had some consideration >for men's sensitivity to visual stimulation. Just being practical about it. >Women were covered up for a reason. Men are easily excited. >(laughs). It was a kind of courtesy to them...." and Kakki responded: <<>> OK, so maybe she was trying to be topical, but blaming women's clothes for the sexual harassment they received? Give me a break. And even though she is being somewhat lighthearted in this instance, she has made similar comments WRT women's im/modesty of dress before. Perhaps this is where we apply Paul's advice to Joni and just look at her as a product of her time. - --Michael NP: Belle and Sebastian, _If You're Feeling Sinister_ ------------------------------ Date: 2 Nov 98 15:50:17 EST From: Kai Wong Subject: joni at msg Joni was in top form last night, her performance was even better than the one at Woodstock, if that is possible. There were Joni fans EVERYWHERE. Her performance of Hejira and Magdalene Laundries were simply out of this world. She received at least 3 standing ovations. This is one night I will never forget. She dropped Facelift and Moon at the Window from the setlist but included a rocking DJRD. She spoke minimally due to time constraints but played an incredible set. She has never sounded better. Brian Blade was very impressive on drums. My only complaints, the set was too short and those inconsiderate Dylan fans yakking away during Amelia! It really is time for Joni to headline, Bob is not a good mix. Totally mesmerizing. Kai Kai ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:49:59 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Nietzsche perpectives pj wrote: >before i go any further, please >understand my education in philosophy came from an american university >and i think much of our differences will be explained with that fact. >2. On Nietzsche and the ubermensch. I was taught that the best english >translation for the word uber in this context was ..'over', versus your choice of 'super'. To that regard, the ubermensch was the 'overman'. One who overcomes. One who gets beyond. One who can take anything. A survivor who comes out of struggle stronger than he/she went in. American philosophy teachers favor Nietzsche and preach his positives, not his negatives. I can see joni liking Nietzsche and not Socrates. That makes sense to me as an American. However, I found your comment on the negative elements seen in the ubermensch and the rise of the Nazi party to be extremely interesting and that too makes sense to me, although it is not something I have ever considered. I've really enjoyed the various perspectives put forth by Winfried and PJ and added to the perspective I was given in an American university where Nietzsche was (no doubt simplistically) presented as a "God is Dead" Nihilist, who, while one of the great philosophers and very compelling, had somewhat of an ultimately flawed and incomplete philosophy in that one can only go so far with the Nihilistic approach. I don't perceive Joni as remotely Nihilistic and this is where I had the problem undertstanding a complete embrace of Nietzsche on her part. I suspect she is perhaps drawn, rather, to his sense of radical individualism. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:11:31 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Re: Willy The Shake (NJC) Colin wrote: >I don't get this remark. i do hope you aren't being rude about Carly. Never, Colin, I wouldn't dare! :) Just reminding folks that Willy The Shake deserves credit for "We are the stuff that dreams are made of" or "made on" as I think the original goes. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:02:58 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni in SF MG wrote: >What bothered me wasn't so much the scandal and harassment, but >Joni's implication that women used to know better regarding provocative >dress. Since harassment has more to do with power than sex, one could >dress as dull as dishwater and still get hit upon. > >Just a real OOB (out of balance) comment IMHO. I agree with both you and Michael. I was just thinking that her observations may have stemmed from some of the wild stuff (please don't ask me to elaborate or debate) that did go on in some of the record companies here a few years back. Maybe Joni should have elaborated or clarified, maybe she should be careful about assuming that local or industry insider news is common knowledge to the audience before making a blithe comment like that. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 13:39:18 -0800 From: jan gyn Subject: JONI INTERVIEW (San Fran) PIX The Joni pictures in the SF Examiner article has our lady of the flowers posing casual fashion mag style, wearing her beloved Miyake duds (those pleat-y things) and bathed unsmiling in a soft, greenish light. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:02:42 EST From: Green51976@aol.com Subject: Setlist? does anyone have the setlist for the NY show? if so, could you send it to the list please? oh, and i apologize for referring to joni's smoking as "sultry". you are right of course... i am no advocate of tobacco companies or cancer of any kind. i think it just made an interesting visual. i mean, she wasnt suckin' the cigarette up like morton downey jr. or anything. it just suited the song i thought... it worked in that sense... andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:09:46 -0600 From: "John Villasana" Subject: Re: Plato , Augustine, and Joni PJ wrote: Agustine of Hippo who lived in the 4th century and helped form the very basics of the christian community ( communio ) which we now see lived in the 20th century in both religious life and parish life. If I remember correctly, Augustine was highly influenced by Plato. Also, the most influential early church writings (i.e. Corinthinians, Ephesians) were written to and for the greeks. Interestingly, many of the ethical principles attributed to Jesus had more parallels to Greek thought than to Hebrew thought. It's also important to remember that what we know of as the word of god was compiled from many conflicting storeys about two hundred years after the fact at the council of Nicea. I believe it was done by Jerome, who again, was highly influenced by Plato, as was the fashion at that time. On Neitzche, I allways thought that Joni liked him cuz she identified with the uberman concept, or perhaps the Will to Power concept. Really, these are useful concepts for anyone going into business for themself. Joni is a powerful women with a strong will. Not a survivor, or victem at all. She made her world, and continues to do so with little apparent compromise. She does have the nasty habit (she's not alone here), of portraying herself as a victim. She doesn't spend a lot of time bragging about how incredibly fortunate she is (beautiful, supremly talented, living in the 20th century, etc.). Also, I wouldn't take Catholic theologians too seriously here (note: I am a Catholic). The Catholic church is anchored by dogma. It's hard to get a truely scientific and objective point of view when your major role is to follow the company line. It's been about 11 years since my formal training so forgive my rough generalizations. If I'm totally off on my history here, please let me know. John Villasana San Antonio TX ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:17:28 EST From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Re: Nietzsche perpectives In a message dated 98-11-02 16:04:55 EST, kakkib@att.net writes: << hile one of the great philosophers and very compelling, had somewhat of an ultimately flawed and incomplete philosophy in that one can only go so far with the Nihilistic approach. I don't perceive Joni as remotely Nihilistic and this is where I had the problem undertstanding a complete embrace of Nietzsche on her part. I suspect she is perhaps drawn, rather, to his sense of radical individualism. >> now i can see this and you are right in that this is very interesting to get different perspectives from the globe. i remember teachers presenting nietzsche's dark side, but i always went away with a romanticized impression.....tougher than nails....type of character. i may be wrong but I seem to remember some mental illness late in his life too??? i guess we'll hear from the germans tomorrow. they must be in bed now. pj ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:42:45 EST From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: smoking on stage (NJC) MG wrote: > Denise, This has always been a pet peeve of mine and I can never > understand why people are impressed by the smoking or find it sexy. > There is nothing sexy about drug addiction. True, there is nothing sexy about drug addiction. However, the idea that smoking is sexy was drilled into anyone of boomer age and their elders by Hollywood, and that concept -- along with "smoking is cool" -- continues to be included in cig ads today. The association itself is a hard habit to break. Just for the sake of discussion, if cigarettes were NOT a "nicotine delivery system" and were NOT addictive or harmful in any way, would you or would you not find the act of smoking sexy? Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 22:54:41 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Joni /JMDL in NYC I've enjoyed reading everyones' accounts of Joni's performance last night at Madison Square Garden. I agree with those who've posted that her VOICE is strong and absolutely beautiful. This is the BEST it has sounded in a long time. And this really made me very happy, because I'd been a little concerned that her voice might be "going." Last night's performance allayed any such fears -- in fact, it just may be getting better than it ever was! With very few exceptions, the people where I was sitting (loge-stage right) seemed to be there to see Dylan, but they were completely respectful of Joni's set, if not downright interested in hearing it. No chatter, no rudeness, and no empty seats -- just polite (yet subdued) applause. (Maybe New Yorkers feel that they have enough outlets for rudeness in their day-to-day lives, and there's no need to bring any of *that* with them to a concert!) As someone pointed out there was a pretty intense change in the atmosphere at MSG when Dylan took the stage and throughout his set -- lots of dancing in the seats and aisles. But hey, songs like Amelia, Hejira, The Magdalene Laundries, and Harry's House just ain't dance songs! Someone who saw one of the midwest shows posted that "it was like the blink of an eye," and I felt the same way. Even though the show lasted probably 75+ minutes, it seemed to end seconds after it had begun. I was disappointed that she didn't "talk" very much, but her singing and playing were truly spectacular, and earned her a few standing ovations. For those keeping track, in Hejira she sang "I think I heard Chris Botti coming through the snowy trees." It was wonderful to meet/re-meet alot of JMDLRs at Duane's place, and enjoy his generous hospitality once again, and to meet a few more listers at Triple Crown bar before and after the show. -Kenny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:19:18 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Setlists Just checked out the setlist Joni chose to air in her PPV special, and was interested to see that it mirrors almost exactly the setlist (including song order) she's been performing in her recent string of performances. Clearly she worked out an arc she likes in the editing room. I thought that was kind of cool. - --Michael NP: Digable Planets, _reachin' (a new refutation of time and space)_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:21:45 EST From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Re: Plato , Augustine, and Joni In a message dated 98-11-02 17:12:46 EST, refab@neptune.ConnectI.com writes: << If I remember correctly, Augustine was highly influenced by Plato. Also, the most influential early church writings (i.e. Corinthinians, Ephesians) were written to and for the greeks. Interestingly, many of the ethical principles attributed to Jesus had more parallels to Greek thought than to Hebrew thought. It's also important to remember that what we know of as the word of god was compiled from many conflicting storeys about two hundred years after the fact at the council of Nicea. I believe it was done by Jerome, who again, was highly influenced by Plato, as was the fashion at that time. I was speaking specifically to the statements about Plato's Republic as the foundation for the church in Rome and I hold my ground here. Also, the gospels as we know them were written far before the year 200. The Gospel of John, which was written last was written around 90 ad. The writings of both peter and paul were done in their life time and their stories are available to be read as written, regardless of the time their writings were selected to the canons. I'll quote Hafner again: "The difference between the perfect community and the others is not, as Plato thought, one of mere quantity; it is qualitative, as St. Thomas, following Aristotle, teaches. The perfect community is the goal toward which the other natural associations strive and in which they find their fulfillment. " pg 10, intro. I am thinking now of Plato's Euthyphro in which he asks the question do we do what is right because the gods tell us to or because doing right is worthy in and of itself. Both Agustine and Aquinas would answere this differently than Plato did in his Euthyphro. Moreover, Roman theology would say that Plato's Republic falls short of forming the perfect community because it places too much stock in man and not enough in God and in particular, the incarnate god as impassioned in the gospels. This is not to say that platonic philosophy has had no place in the history of the Roman Church. This is to say that the foundations of the Roman Church rest in Jesus, Peter, Paul, Agustine, and Aquinas far more than the Republic of Plato. If anything, I think Aquinas and Augustine both would say that Plato falls short of allowing for grace and redemption to flavor human behavior and history and that the style of Aristotle is the chosen one in which Roman Theology is written. you also write: << On Neitzche, I allways thought that Joni liked him cuz she identified with the uberman concept, or perhaps the Will to Power concept. Really, these are useful concepts for anyone going into business for themself. Joni is a powerful women with a strong will. Not a survivor, or victem at all. She made her world, and continues to do so with little apparent compromise. She does have the nasty habit (she's not alone here), of portraying herself as a victim. She doesn't spend a lot of time bragging about how incredibly fortunate she is (beautiful, supremly talented, living in the 20th century, etc.). I am curious here how you know this to be true. One thing that always stood out to me when Joni gave up her daughter to adoption was that she said she felt she could not turn to her parents for help. I would hope that my children would not feel this way in such a situation and I feel I am responsible as the parent to see this through. How can you judge Joni Mitchell from what you see and read at a distance? Now, she is a human like the rest of us and not without her faults. But I don't feel I've been privledged with the proper view to judge her so specifically. You also write: << Also, I wouldn't take Catholic theologians too seriously here (note: I am a Catholic). The Catholic church is anchored by dogma. It's hard to get a truely scientific and objective point of view when your major role is to follow the company line. It's been about 11 years since my formal training so forgive my rough generalizations. If I'mtotally off on my history here, please let me know. John Villasana San Antonio TX I don't agree with a lot Ive been taught in catholic education and I particularly would like to have a face to face with St. Thomas in anothe life just to set some things straight. At the same time, I see a value in the church of Rome placed, even if mistakenly, on a perceived higher authority than mortal man and I don't think Plato's Republic does the same thing. That's the only perspective from where im arguing. In other words, Im not saying the teachings of the Roman Church are right. I am saying they are based upon assumptions different than those of Plato. pj ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 23:25:00 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Gershwin's World Hey Terry, Thanks for sharing the Detroit Free Press' review of Joni's singing on Herbie Hancock's new CD, but this is one of those "negative reviews" that simply can't upset me cause it is so far from the truth. Billie Holliday wannabe, eh? Has the guy ever heard Billie sing? I have, and I don't hear any similarities. Maybe he was using a thesaurus, and looking for a different way to say "jazz singer" he found Billie Holliday's name listed. But then that just leaves us with "wannabe." Well maybe he was looking up a synonym for "master" and it was late and he was tired, and accidentally picked the antonym... I hate writers who depend so heavily on thesauruses. I think her singing on this CD is astonishing and beautiful, and I find her style and delivery both fresh and unique...a true master! -Kenny On 11/2/98 3:14PM, TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: I've been enjoying this new CD as well and was appalled to read the Detroit Free Press' poor review of it, including the part where they describe Joni's singing as a Billie Holliday wannabe. Terry In a message dated 11/2/98 3:02:56 PM, FredNow@aol.com writes: << Joni sings The Man I Love and Summertime, and absolutely kills. Her smoky, lower voice is now the perfect jazz vehicle, and her pitch and phrasing right on. >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:54:40 -0800 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Re: smoking on stage (NJC) -Reply >>> 11/02/98 02:42pm >>> >>True, there is nothing sexy about drug addiction. However, the idea that smoking is sexy was drilled into anyone of boomer age and their elders by Hollywood, and that concept -- along with "smoking is cool" -- continues to be included in cig ads today. The association itself is a hard habit to break. I missed that one from the git-go. My mother, (a non-smoker), drilled it into the Valentinsson kids that smoking was a horrible habit. Disgusting. The times being what they were, she had no clue about the drug side of it, her concern was that it "makes your clothes smell bad." So, with my upbringing, nicotene or not, for me, sexy isn't an issue with a cigerette in one's mouth. (cuz I'm sure it's only going to get in the way!) The real question is why did THAT value stick, but my mom's views on sex, (ewwww!), religion, (Catholic), and food, (over-cooked and under-seasoned), do a quick two-step out the window??? MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 98 23:47:05 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Setlist? Hi Andy, It was everything she did at the other shows, including a rocking Don Juan's Reckless Daughter (with close to two minutes of strumming intro), and MINUS Face Lift and Moon at the Window. Last time I took notes and 5 people had already posted the setlist. So this time I didn't bother. So this is *probably* the NY setlist: Big Yellow Taxi Just Like This Train Night Ride Home The Crazy Cries Of Love Free Man in Paris Harry's House Black Crow Amelia Hejira Don Juan's Reckless Daughter Sex Kills The Magdalene Laundries Trouble Man Comes Love Woodstock -Kenny waiting for Duane's official report On 11/2/98 5:02PM, Green51976@aol.com wrote: does anyone have the setlist for the NY show? if so, could you send it to the list please? andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 23:52:24 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: smoking on stage (NJC) -Reply Mary Grace Valentinsson wrote: > >>> 11/02/98 02:42pm >>> > > > > So, with my upbringing, nicotene or not, for me, sexy isn't an issue with > a cigerette in one's mouth. (cuz I'm sure it's only going to get in the way!) > > The real question is why did THAT value stick, but my mom's views on > sex, (ewwww!), religion, (Catholic), and food, (over-cooked and > under-seasoned), do a quick two-step out the window??? Because you kept a sense of self and could see that smoking was dumb and bad for you whilst sex, good food and a healthy spirituality were good for you! > > > MG ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 00:54:16 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: Nietzsche perspectives (SJC) > pj wrote: > > >2. On Nietzsche and the ubermensch. I was taught that the best english > >translation for the word uber in this context was ..'over', versus your > choice of 'super'. To that regard, the ubermensch was the 'overman'. One > who overcomes. One who gets beyond. One who can take anything. A survivor > who comes out of struggle stronger than he/she went in. American philosophy > teachers favor Nietzsche and preach his positives, not his negatives. Thanks for your comments! Your perception of Nietzsches "Uebermensch" is absolutely correct - "overman" is the literal translation for "Uebermensch" (though I believe "Superman" is the official one -- both terms mean exactly the same) . Nietzsche's belief was that it was necessary to surpass the "classic" human categories and values, such as good and evil ("beyond good and evil") and to replace them with something he called "the Dionysan principle". He thought this would enable people to free themselves from illusion and self-denial, so they eventuall could reach a higher level of existence. The main element of said "Dionysan principle" was an unconditional and unrestricted "will to power", and there are gazillions of interpretations of what exactly Nietzsche meant by that. Most scholars agree that Nietzsche's "power" isn't simply political, social or military power. It's something internal and existential, some creative force inside each human being. "Live live to the max" would be a very Nietzschean slogan indeed! This is also the point at which my criticism would start. Morality and the restrictions it imposes on each of us IMO are a consequence of the fact that people are "social animals" -- we live together in groups, and this makes it inevitable for each individual to follow rules that ensure people can live together and will be able to live together. Furthermore, Nietzsche believed that old-fashioned morality was a means of the weak to suppress the strong, those, whom he thought could initiate the transition from man to "superman". Whereas he might well have meant something totally different, it was really easy for the Nazis to abuse this for their purposes. And *a lot of* people fell for it. For example, Nietzsche wrote ("The Anti-Christ", aphorism 2): "I preach not contentedness, but more power; not peace, but war; not virtue, but efficiency. The weak and defective shall perish; and they shall be given assistance: that is the first principle of the dionysan charity" There you have it. The Nazis identified the "Superman" with the Aryan race, and boy did they "assist the weak and defective" -- by locking them up like cattle inside concentration camps and sending them into the gas chambers. Sure they took Nietzsche out of context. But the wording is clear as clear can be. If Nietzsche had meant it differently, he should have written it differently. Intellectuals have, above all, the responsibility to make themselves clearly understood. They are smart enough to do it. (Maybe, some are too smart.) I don't think this is a question of inside-America/outside-America. Opinions simply vary. Here and everywhere else. Nietzsche, a big fan of Richard Wagner's operas, also said "Without music, live would be a mistake". Maybe that's what Joni likes about him! pj. I found your other comments also very interesting, I just don't have time to reply at once toeverything you wrote. There's more to come... Thanks once again for your comments! Winfried, who BTW also gets stomach cramps from listening to Wagner music ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:03:23 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Joni's remarks on Socrates being fascist PJ wrote: <<>> These points address Socrates' (alleged) personality and methods, but not his *philosophy*. Not only is "fascist" a strong statement, it's an irrelevant and illogical one when speaking of someone who gave no answers. A fascist would have plenty of "answers." <<< I agree with you that Plato was the fulfilment of Socratic thought,>>> Plato was the fulfillment of Socratic *method* perhaps, but that he was the fulfillment of Socratic *thought* is very, very arguable. <<>> Which makes him *more* likely to be the "fascist." Plato went there, as it were; he said, "this is justice." His answer, which is best, though still poorly, summarized as things performing that for which they were intended (please don't jump on me philosophy majors; I realize that this summation is very inadequate). From here he created a vision of a society where women popped out puppies for the community, authoritarian philosopher-kings ruled, etc. etc., which *is* reasonably close to a definition of totalitarianism, if not quite fascism. Furthermore, I return to the line from "Sex Kills": Is justice just ice Governed by greed and lust Just the strong doing what they can And the weak suffering what they must Which is a fairly reasonable approximation of Plato's definition of justice applied: justice is each doing that for which it's best suited; i.e. the strong are best suited to doing what they can, and the weak are best suited to suffering what they must. I'll look for the article I mentioned before to confirm it, but I'm almost positive that when discussing this line she specifically mentioned Socrates, not Plato. (And do I need to point out that the lyrics to which I refer are, in form at least, a question? Rhetorical probably, but a question nonetheless, not an answer. Seems Joni and Socrates might get along better than she thinks. ;-) ) And, of course, the kicker is that the philosophy described above is uttered by a character named, you guessed it, "Socrates" in Plato's _Republic_. A character who probably was intended by Plato to embody the real Socrates, though with what accuracy (and motives for that matter) we do not know. The circumstantial evidence rather strongly points to a confusion on Joni's part between Socrates and Plato. However, as I said before, this is a trivial factual error easily enough corrected. Let's take on the meaty substance of Joni's critique here--do you think that Plato's definition of justice is the dominant working one in modern Western society? Does her connection between Plato and Cadillac hold water? I think it does, but in a complex way. The dominant government systems of the world are ostensibly democratic in nature and form, and owe more to fundamental Greek ideals of citizen-government than Platonic philosophy; HOWEVER, social and economic forces do seem to have created a political (defined in its broader sense of power relationships) system that often embodies this strong/weak pre-destined struggle. Of course, it could also be argued that the democratic systems we have devised actually ameliorate, though imperfectly, the "state of nature" (thanks Hobbes). That is, Plato's justice rules in nature, but more fundamental Greek (and Lockeian etc.) ideals rule in the state as an imperfect counterweight. Which means, maybe this system sucks, but without it we'd really be up shit creek. Discuss. - --Michael, who learned long ago he has no answers and thus probably has more in common with Socrates than Plato ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:08:07 -0600 From: "John Villasana" Subject: Re: Plato , Augustine, and Joni It's not really clear when the gospels were written, except that some version of some of them were accepted as canon at the council of Nicea. It is a fact that Jerome was presented with dozens of versions of each manuscript, as well as many others that were rejected when he compiled the new testement. It is a statement of faith to say that any of these were written by actual contemporaries of Jesus. re: Plato vs Jesus et al. I agree with you in the sense that Jesus Paul etc were the official source of what we know as the church... but I would add that there is a tendency to see ideas as birthing singularly from individuals. My view is that all those manuscripts reflect a myriad of influencing cultures, with large parts greek. It is a fact that there were many other gospels. It is also a fact that the council of Nicea was convened in order to cement the integrity of the church. There were so many influences that the church was losing it's identity. In hammering out the inconsistancies, somebody, (Jerome), had to make some executive decisions. It was not a task he welcomed, but it was left to him none the less. I guess I could say that though I recognize that there are limitations to pure Platonic thought, or Pure Christian thought( whatever that is), I see all of em as having provided some useful points. Neitzche too. Re: Judging Joni We all judge Joni. I would guess that most people on this list judge her favorably. Including me, hence my presense. It is a discussion list however, and I see value at looking at her "worts and all", because she is more useful to me as a role model or hero with flaws. It's probably obvious that I don't know her personally, so my judgements are limited to what I have read in interviews. And what I have read is mostly incredibly fascinating and admirable, but there's also plenty of bitching. Does this make her a bad person...I would say not. I do think that commenting on it helps complete the picture. She remains an inspiration despite this. Also, I just think it serves all to view ourselves and our heros as powerful and in control. This is the perspective of life that I choose because I believe it is empowering to think that way. This was my implicit message, not that Joni was bad. I know from experience that feeling like a victim is a lousy way to experience life. Hope this clears things a bit. John Villasana San Antonio Tx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:12:15 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: (NJC) my context on the philosophy stuff As long as we're contextualizing our thoughts on philosophy, I guess I should add that everything I know about philosophy I learned in the US, but at an idiosyncratic institution (U of Chicago) whose approach to philosophy isn't typical of most US schools. Furthermore, I studied most of it in a class aimed toward understanding of social and political thought, so my understanding of the works we're discussing is stronger in the aspects of them concerning these specific realms. Sorry for the bandwidth... - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:36:21 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: No Apologies on the Radio!!!!!!!!! Hey guys! OK, I'm setting up my radio, turn it on, and what do I hear??? "And that was No Apologies from Joni Mitchell's 'Taming The Tiger' album. It is on our CD of the month disc for this month!" Can you believe it!!!??? NP-KRNA, waiting for a guitarist I know playing a live show Mark ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:37:03 -0600 From: Mary Pitassi Subject: Part I: "I took a ferry to the highway / Then I drove to a ponto on plane" [NOTE: I wanted to send the list an account of my recent adventures in Detroit. However, so as not to bore folks silly who have little interest in such goings-on, I'll send them in pieces, for your scrolling or deleting pleasure!] I wasn't supposed to be anywhere near Joni Mitchell's concert in Detroit on Wednesday, October 28, 1998. As a matter of fact, until six days before the show, I was scheduled to move 90 miles down Interstate 94 from my home in Madison, Wisconsin on October 26, and begin a new job the following day. Consequently, I had every reason to believe that my CD player would probably be lost in a box somewhere in my brand new apartment, which would rule out my savoring any Joni music on that particular day. However, it became increasingly clear that, for various reasons, this was simply not the best time for me to undertake such an all-encompassing move. As of the end of the week, I had committed to remaining in Madison. And that meant (among very many other things) that I could hear Joni live on her 1998 jaunt through the North American Midwest after all. Since Chicago was, by far, the closest location geographically, it made sense to try to catch Joni's show there. But, despite much-appreciated assistance from several Chicago listers in locating a ticket and even a place to stay overnight, there were tasks at work I absolutely had to complete after having turned my attention instead to my Big Decision the week before. At 4 p.m. on Sunday, in front of my computer at the office, I realized with growing frustration that I probably couldn't arrive at the show on time even if I hopped into my car and sped down the highway at that very moment. At 4:45, with the realization that Joni might never tour again sinking in fast, I began nursing a serious case of the blues. Then, at a little after 5, after scanning the tour itinerary, I took a new tack, and joined the lists for two other Midwestern concerts which were scheduled to occur later that week. Almost immediately, I heard from Sue Cameron, who I'd very much enjoyed meeting at Pittsburgh JoniFest, and who e-mailed encouragement back. And soon afterward, I received additional information (and encouragement) from Terry M. From that point on, I became an Unstoppable Force of Nature, absolutely determined to be on a plane departing from Somewhere to Detroit on Wednesday, October 28! That took some doing, especially since our server at work crashed on Monday afternoon, and I could neither receive nor send e-mail to any of the Detroit folks for the greater part of a day. And the only reasonably-priced plane fare at that late date was from Chicago, a 2 1/2- to 3-hour drive away. However, I was able to contact several kind Detroit-listers late Tuesday afternoon, and completed my purchase of an electronic plane ticket (no paper to pick up!) from my travel agent. I quickly made arrangements for a cat-sitter, blew out of the house early the next morning, enjoyed an uneventful drive to O'Hare to the accompaniment of good tapes, and was on a flight to "DTW" by shortly after noon. And, a little after 2 p.m. Detroit time, my flight was approaching the airport, with the ground dotted by patches and patches of deep russet that were not even recognizable as trees from our incoming angle, and made it seem as though the grass were indeed red in the environs of Detroit. If it had been, that wouldn't have been any stranger than what had occurred in the past 48 hours, or what was to occur in the day to come. NEXT: We drive to our hotel, and have an Eventful Meeting. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 21:06:55 -0500 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: Gershwin's World and the ny weekend (jc) some synchjonicity; steve julty and i spent a lot of time praising this album at duane's yesterday. like most jmdlers i went straight to the jonitrax when i bought it (release day) but it has become such a beautiful beginning-to-end album, as anyone who reads my nps knows. i've loved the ravel adagio for a long time and knew the gershwin influence, but i don't own a recording of the concerto and as a non-musician i wasn't sure if herbie was playing the score or not. his taste is so good, and his touch so gentle, and jazz was seeping into classical music so much when ravel wrote this, i just couldn't guess. thanks for clearing that up, fred. this says volumes about what herbie has achieved on this album. st. louis blues is an extremely high point, too. and the joni tracks now fit in for me as another great musician making great music. oh, and she definitely is wearing her billie on her sleeve, bless her. how good was this weekend? very good indeed. saturday i was heading out to meet kay ashley and friend, and the chilis, when kenny g called, hanging with ashara. i'd thought ashara'd blown us off, i was thrilled she was in town. we had a great night, piano bar moments, dinner at tanti baci, the chilis found us, lost us, we broke it up around one and i got home to the news that my college park tix are sec1row9. yeehaw!! sunday to duane's. he's remodelled his living room, banished the christmas package greens and reds to the bedroom, opened it up to an incredibly comfortable, cream-colored space, about 8 people settled in when i arrived. great food, great conversation. for a while we were conniving a fake setlist to report, t'piss y'all off, say, woman of heart and mind, river, shadows and light with the harlem boys choir. eddie van halen coming in for 'led baloon'. the cake had the cover of ttt as the frosting. i think attendance at duane's might have reached 15 folks peak. we headed on down to the triple crown, jan (hoboken) and i slumwayed and chatted, walked in and met this cool woman named deb. no it wasn't deb messling but i don't regret the hug; debra shea and i have similiar curmudgeon genes, i think. and similar loves, and a similar susceptibility to joni-brilliance. hi deb, i loved your thoughts on the show. still it was great to meet one of my two favorite librarians, ms. messling. and walking up to the garden en gang, seeing joni's name in lights, good, yep. and joni mitchell was remarkable. powerful. i loved the setlist. but i need to say even more that i really felt the crowd was with her, so much more than the shows in la. byt solo as an opener is such a good idea; it drew people in. but i was truly struck, last night, by the powerful audience response to songs that are just not first-listen gems. specifically 'amelia' and 'magdalene laundries'. during each of these songs i melted and returned to reality knowing, 'this audience couldn't have felt that' and they did. each time. and they made it known. hejira was yet another reshaping of the 'hejiralobe' of my brain. don juan's intro had me jumping out of my seat. and comes love was such a climax of a powerful set. i was hoping for mark isham on this tour, but chris botti's playing was just so good, throughout. i'm a new fan, but it points out again that joni's great on tour again this fall because she loves to bring good musicians out with her, yum... patrick, who realizes that the first half of november has been just ceded to joni this year... np - silence ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #456 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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