From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #453
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Sunday, November 1 1998 Volume 03 : Number 453
The Joni Tour Pages:
http://www.jonimitchell.com/Tour98.html
http://www.jmdl.com/articles/tour98.htm
-------
Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these
addresses:
-Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com
-NewYork@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com
-------
JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank
message to info-jonifest1999@jmdl.com for more info.
-------
The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available
now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details.
-------
The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
http://www.jonimitchell.com and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Re: njc: "Susanpoo" [Susan Chaloner ]
(JC coming soon) Catman's Query [Susan Chaloner ]
Re: Best album of all Time ["Eric Taylor" ]
Re: you know you're a hardcore Joni fan when... ["Winfried Hühn" ]
Joni Flavors and Then Some... ["Julie Z. Webb" ]
Joni in person [Diana Duncan ]
Re: Dog Eat Dog -- Best Joni Album of all Time ["philip" ]
Re: JMDL Digest V3 #450 [Bounced Message ]
Am I Dumb or What?! (NJC) [Jeff & Vicki Harris ]
RE: Joni Flavors and Then Some... [Michael Yarbrough ]
Colin...Joni Videos [mann@chicagonet.net]
RE: JONI INTERVIEW (San Fran) [Michael Yarbrough ]
Re: JONI INTERVIEW (San Fran) [IVPAUL42@aol.com]
Re: JONI INTERVIEW (San Fran) ["Kakki" ]
RE: Joni Flavors and Then Some... ["Julie Z. Webb" ]
Re: JMDL Digest V3 #451 [bg26140@binghamton.edu]
Re: (JC coming soon) Catman's Query [Susan Chaloner ]
Re: RE: Joni Flavors and Then Some... [Marilune@aol.com]
Re: JMDL Digest V3 #451 ["M & C Urbanski" ]
Joni PPV 11/06 - Bay Area stuff [Mary Grace Valentinsson ]
SF article [RADJSHARP@aol.com]
(NJC)Sleepy Sunday [Susan Chaloner ]
Re: You know you're a hardcore Joni fan when... [Barrylauri@aol.com]
Re: (NJC)Sleepy Sunday [Marian Rulewski ]
Re: (NJC)Sleepy Sunday [catman ]
And I Quote... [catman ]
Re:NJC Joni Flavors and Then Some... ["Julie Z. Webb" ]
Joni article in Nov. US Magazine - Part 1 ["Kakki" ]
Joni article in US Magazine - Part 2 ["Kakki" ]
Re: NJC Joni Flavors and Then Some... [TerryM2442@aol.com]
Joni in US Magazine - Part 3 ["Kakki" ]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 00:32:36 -0800
From: Susan Chaloner
Subject: Re: njc: "Susanpoo"
Julie Z. Webb wrote:
> For Susan LA,
> She's an Aviator,
> She's a Wingwalker,
> She mows lawns......
Now Jules dear: how would you know I've been weedeating? You are simply
amazing! I was wondering whose limo kept cruisin' by my digs ;~D How did
you like my paratrooper get up? Did you notice my stone steps...I'm very
proud of those steps down to the creek...Took me days to dig them out!
And you would not believe the things I found in the process! :~D An
antique Lucky Lager bottle cap, a royal blue marble (and the great
hunter in the sky knows I need all the marbles I can get ) but
the most prized is something I found when I "...sat on the roof and
kicked off the moss..." A Canadian Centennial nickle...I figure some
"...black crow in a blue sky..." must have dropped it there ;~)
> Say that you'll be true
> And never leave us (again) blue
"...Don't cry for me Argentina
The truth is
I never left you
All through my wild days
My mad existence
I kept my promise
Don't keep your distance...
And as for fortune
and as for fame
I never invited them in
Though they seemed to the world
they were all I desired
They are illusions
They're not the solutions they promised to be
The answer was here all the time
I love you, and hope you love me..."-Rice and Webber
> Happy Halloween from which Witch of the Web?
Not just any ol' witch, that's for sure! ;~D
Love ya! Giggisamo Hugs!
Susan L.A.
"...No doubt about it..."-JoniM
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 00:32:45 -0800
From: Susan Chaloner
Subject: (JC coming soon) Catman's Query
catman wrote:
> You know it is amazing, I ask questions about people othet than Joni and I get
> loads of response. I am still waiting for answers to the questions I asked
> regarding a couple of Joni videos I saw!
Catman love: What were the questions? Can't Simon answer them? I thought
he knew everything ;~D
Restate the queries dear. I'll gather my marbles and do my best to dust
off some answers...I've had lots of practice recently...Getting at my
interior walls so I could paint them was like archeology Of
course one never knows what one will find...In other words, I can't
gaurantee the answers will match the questions...But you know, matching
isn't all it's cracked up to be...Absolutely nothing around here
matches, not even the screws and I love it! I call it our House of
Random Relief!
Susan L.A.
"...Let light hearts remake us..."-JoniM
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 01:09:36 -0800
From: Susan Chaloner
Subject: Withering Blights
Hey Wally Love!
Thanks for the rollout you bright red devil you! ;~)
> Bitch away, S., I'll keep you company.
Well Alright! Let's Bitch n' Pitch!
The New York Train stops here...I stole that from Ferron :~)
How do these withering old bags get off being so critical of our dear
Roberta? One would think that impaired condition would permafrost their
genitals. According to our Gurl Marsha the Witherers say:
Joni is boring some, a lame artist/painter to others, not playing to
the right size arena/crowds, too open about Kilauren and such,
the list goes on....
"...Oh, Bury my heart at wounded knee..."-Buffy
You have a beautiful voice Wally! And I can't think of a better person
to alter the lyrics than Marsha...I say we do a rendition of Kate Bush's
"Wuthering Heights" and call it "Withering Blights."
I can hardly wait for your visit! :~)
Megissimo Hugs,
Susan L.A.
"...I'm grinning like a fool..."-JoniM
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 04:15:58 -0500
From: "Eric Taylor"
Subject: Re: Best album of all Time
lurker bill wrote:
>i don't know that i'd put it right up there with hejira, but i'm taking
>this opportunity to agree publicly with don rowe's post. dog eat dog
>is a very good album, one of her better ones. and at the risk of incurring
>your collective wrath, at this point, i'd put it over taming the tiger
>if geffen had put a fraction of the promotion money that reprise seems
>to be plunking down for taming the tiger, who knows what would have
>happened?
DED is indeed a masterpiece! Fiction is definately among Joni's most
brilliant compositions (as a Libra I can relate). I immediately got into DED
the day it was released and adore it to this day. TTT took me dozens of
listens to fully appreciate, which has never happened before with a Joni
record. But now that I've listened to it every day since it was released, I
must say that TTT far outshines DED (and is right up there with Hejira)!
No wrath intended.
I would like to take this opportunity to state that I think Reprise is
doing a fantastic job promoting Joni. I recently made some uninformed
comments about their handling of Joni and stand corrected. Reprise probably
spent more promoting TTT than it will make on all her records this year.
But then there's always next year. And surey someday soon the world will
catch on to the unparalleled genius of Joni Mitchell.
E.T.
NP: Harlem In Havana
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 09:39:08 +0100
From: "Winfried Hühn"
Subject: Re: you know you're a hardcore Joni fan when...
... the entire windscreen of your car is covered with
"Joni-Mitchell-never- lies" bumper stickers!
Where are they? Can't wait for them!
Winfried
NP: Jan Garbarek -- 12 moons
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 14:31:48 +0100
From: "Winfried Hühn"
Subject: Re: JONI INTERVIEW (San Fran)
The SF Examiner interview bab_news alerted us to in her post *is*
available on the web now. The exact URL is
http://www.examiner.com/981101/1101mitchell.shtml
I've rushed through it once and found it quite interesting, even though
there again are some passages that IMO prove BarBerUh right in her
expressed being tired of Joni answers recurring. But what can Joni do
when she gets asked the same questions over and over again?
Nevertheless, Joni talks in detail about influences in her music and
makes many points that would be great to discuss here. I highly
recommend reading this interview. Thanks, bab_news, for sharing!
There is one point though, I strongly disagree with. The interviewer,
TM, is asking Joni about her relationship to Beat Generation artists
> TM: I thought that maybe you'd like them because they have this
> irreverent, anarchistic spirit.
>
> JM: I never was an anarchist. Never. No, that's probably why I don't like
> them. You need rules and regulations, but you need just ones. Socrates'
> justice is ridiculous to me too. It boggles the mind to come up with
> something wise enough that is just to all people. Socrates' utopia is totally
> unjust to me. It's anti-Renaissance. It's a society of specialists. It's fascist.
>
> TM: That sounds like the kind of world we live in today...
>
> JM: The foundations of Western white thought are fascist. I'm not a fan of
> Freud or Socrates. I'm not really a fan of white thought, except for Dickens
> and Kipling, and some of the work during that era when the novel was a
> new form at the time of the Impressionists. That particular pocket of time: I
> like the Germans too. My favorite is Nietzsche.
>
What the hell is she talking about? Apart from the starting point, that
you need just rules and regulations, I believe this to be wrong in its
entirety. The foundations of Western (white) thought are not more
fascist than any other system of thought. Fascism, properly defined as a
systematic and force-backed contempt for the unique value of the
individual, can be found in all parts of the world, in all historic
periods. It can invade every society and clearly has done so. Western
culture is based on individualism, scientific examination of reality,
and ethical altruism. Despite *a lot of* aberrations, this is the reason
why the overwhelming majority of people living in Western societies
enjoy peaceful and stable lives, why we're able to freely discuss our
ideas on the internet today.
Nietzsche has produced some of the most exciting prose written in the
German language, but in his philosophy, there is not one single line
that could serve to build a just life upon. For practical ethics, it's
dangerous and irrational trash. While Nietzsche certainly wasn't a Nazi
philosopher, his irrational teachings were one of the reason why German
intellectuals failed to see the true nature of the Nazis and fell for
them instead. My grandpa, an ardent Nietzsche-follower, joined the
Nazis, because he thought the "Superman" was in the making. We all
know how it ended.
I find her remarks on Socrates particularly disturbing, although I
sincerely doubt she knows what she's talking about. Socrates never
brought any of his teachings down to papyrus. Our most important source
therefore are the dialogs his disciple Plato wrote using Socrates as
his protagonist. This makes it very difficult and often downright
impossible to make distinctions between Socrates' and Plato's teachings.
However, we do know from several sources that Socrates was
*anti-authoritarian* as he wandered around in Athens and tried to make
people think about their prejudices, to use self-examination as a means
to a better and more truthful life.
This is Western culture at its best. It's also very Joni-ish, that's why
I think it's so odd she attacks Socrates here. Actually, she's one of
his late disciples IMO.
Plato continues to be the most ingenious and influential Western
philosopher of all times. Unfortunately, he also was an anti-democratic
asshole. An admirer of Sparta's political system (a sort of early
soldier-communism, where weak babies were taken away from their parents
and thrown into mountain canyons), Plato's the one who introduced
totalitarian and authoritarian ideas, and many of the things he puts
into Socrates' mouth are in clear contrast to what Socrates actually
did. BTW Plato, not Jesus, provided the ideological basis of
Christianity. For instance, the Catholic church is a very Platonic
organisation, up to this day made up according to the concepts Plato
layed out in "The Republic" . It's no surprise things like the
Magdalene Laundries exist -- it's a direct consequence of Platonic
totalitarism having been allowed to invade the Christian-Catholic
religion. Put the blame on Plato, not Socrates.
Sorry for taking up so much bandwidth on such an unpopular topic. But I
really think it's important -- these are our roots and our defining
factors. It's important to know what comes from where and must be
attributed to whom.
Winfried,
obviously a follower of Sir Karl Popper's teachings of critical
rationalism
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 13:34:09 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: (JC coming soon) Catman's Query
|I asked, somewhere months ago, about three Joni Videos I saw-one was Chinese Cafe
and it is so long ago now that I can't rememebr the other two. Anyhow, there was man
in them-dark curly hair. Just wanted to know if this was Klien.
Oh and by the way Sue, i think you are as cute as my two bitches! And here is a lick
from them....
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 06:34:40 PST
From: "Barbara L"
Subject: great tix avail!
http://events.ticketmaster.com/cgi/events/tour.idc?searchname=BOB_DYLAN
Rise and shine! Ticketmaster has some GREAT seats available this am.
Section 77 row D. Come visit me, bring binoculars. Have to work today
so won't be able to make pre-show festivities.
Barbara
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:30:15 -0500
From: "Julie Z. Webb"
Subject: Joni Flavors and Then Some...
1. Thank you Winfried Huhn for posting the site of Joni's San Fran interview!
Two of Joni's following responses complimented this morning's article on
Alanis Morissete:
2. ["TM: Some people ask, "Where's the melody in Joni Mitchell's music?"
JM: Well, that's just foolish. Where's the melody in Marvin Gaye's music?
That's a very white opinion. A white male opinion. It's a prejudice.
JM: Well, a friend of mine, who was Harvard-educated, was taught this
notion that in your teens and your twenties, a writer is going through a
"lyric period," going through heightened revelation all the time. There's a
profundity and a romance. Your lyric poetry belongs to your teens and 20s,
then you begin to enter into an epic period where you're going over the
same changes again. That lasts through your 30s and 40s and then in your
50s, you become a tragedian. So I became a lyric tragedian in my 20s!
(Laughs.)"]
This reminds me of an article in today's "New York Times" Arts and Leisure
Section, where there is an interview with Alanis Morissette. Joni is
mentioned here too. (I think it's very telling of Joni Mitchell's
contribution to the music world, that she is referred to, in some way, in
the "New York Times" weekly for at least three months now.)
["Some of Ms. Morisette's new songs, like the single, "Thank U," have
clear-cut choruses; some don't. And rhymes have virtually disappeared from
the lyrics, which can read like unfiltered diary entries. Words, not
melodies, take precedence on most songs, and Ms. MOrisette often delivers
them in recitatives, akin to JONI MITCHELL and Ani DiFranco at their most
loquacious, and in repeated, incantatory lines that hint at non-Western
music."]
3. I've been listening to Fiona Apple's exquisite cd, "Tidal" everyday for
the last week. I would love to hear Fiona sing "Blue" "Cactus Tree"
"River" "Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire" "Court and Spark" and "People's
Parties." If anyone wants to talk more about Fiona's music, email me
privately.
4. Watch the made-for TV movie, 'The Temptations' tonight. It was filmed
in my neighborhood of Squirrel Hill in Pittsburgh just a month ago. (The
school in the film is now the site of my daughter's summer nursery school.)
Ill be excited to see a few friends of mine playing "extra's."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:27:57 -0600
From: Diana Duncan
Subject: Joni in person
At 02:21 PM 10/31/1998 EST, Seanapper@aol.com wrote:
> Thanks to all who shared their "meeting Joni" experiences. I'm terribly
>envious. I'm also full of admiration that some of you could actually speak
>AND make sense when you met her; I'm certain I would be a bumbling idiot
if I>ever met Joni!
I have to agree with this! I'm sure I would either clam up or sputter! My
daughter is such a skeptic that she can't believe that Joni would actually
*want* to speak to her fans. I have to say that I agree with Suze that it
*does* show her warmth and class to take the time with us "fans".
The accounts of these meetings are so great it's like all of us are living
it with you. Thanks,
Diana,
NP: The door bell rung by trick-or-treaters.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:01:17 -0000
From: "philip"
Subject: Re: Dog Eat Dog -- Best Joni Album of all Time
Don, fair play to you . DED skeptics like me need to be reminded
from time to time just how good a record it is. So thanks for that.
Although songs like Stimulants and Impossible Dreamer are among
her best, I still think the album is a flawed production and listening
to it now, it sounds strangely dated, whereas earlier acoustic records
remain timeless. I recall her saying in an interview at the time that
Dolby, who was initially only supposed to be helping out, took on too
much of a producer's role leading to a degree of friction. To me
Dolby's technician's influence is too strong on DED at the expense
of Mitchell and Klein's more musical approach. By the time they
came to make Chalkmark, I suspect the technical stuff had been
sorted and the music was again able to soar (in parts anyway).
I'm looking forward to DED coming out on DVD so I can drop
Steiger's annoying harrangue out of the mix and tone down the
clattering synth drums.
Philip
NP Lucky Girl
------------------------------
Date: 1 Nov 98 11:22:17 EST
From: Kai Wong
Subject: joni live in philly 1967
I'm not sure if I should be posting this but I found this store in the Village
yesterday that had over a dozen different joni bootlegs, including the live
BBC recording with James Taylor. They were priced around $25 each. I know we
are not supposed to buy bootlegs, but I figured I was already paying $80 just
to see joni at MSG tonight, and besides I just had to get one of them. Took
me about 3o minutes to decide but finally got the one recorded in Philly in
67. This is the setlist:
Morning Morgantown
Born to Take the Highway
Eastern Rain
Circle Game
Song to a Seagull
Carnival in Canorra
Brandy Eyes
Winter Lady (joni sings to another woman!!!)
Mr. Blue
Urge For Going
Both Sides Now
Night in the City
CircleGame
Conversation
I am overwhelmed. She sounds so even incredible way back then. I presume
this is already on a tape tree.
Also, saw joni ppv heavily adverstised in Time Warner cable, with the Black
Crow clip in background.
Kai
anxiously counting the hours to MSG tonight and wishing he cound be a Duane's
apt to meet the others and
Kai
____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 09:53:03 -0700
From: Bounced Message
Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V3 #450
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 11:29:38 -0500
From: Jeff & Vicki Harris
There were 3 t-shirts available in Detroit, no sweatshirts. One was blue with
a pix of TI, the other green with Taming. The 3rd was sold out, but it was
black. No pix and I forgot what the text was. They were $25 each.
On the back of the black T-shirt (plain front) were the words "Happiness is
the Best
Facelift".
By the way, did anyone get the signed copy of Joni's artwork? I fought with
myself
throughout the concert, but finally talked myself out of spending the $.
Now I wish I
had gotten it!
Vicki
n.p. Shiny Toys (for Don R.... wink, wink)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 12:11:32 -0500
From: Jeff & Vicki Harris
Subject: Am I Dumb or What?! (NJC)
So sorry to all,
I thought I just pasted a portion of a quote to the list, but I think I
ended up sending the whole digest.
(See why I lurked for so long?)
Vicki
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 12:42:31 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: JONI INTERVIEW (San Fran)
Winfried wrote:
<<>>
As you wrote, Joni obviously is simply confusing words put in
Socrates' mouth by Plato in _The Republic_ for words he actually
said. I don't think that's really disturbing, though, just a factual
error easily enough corrected if anyone gets the chance to tell her.
The meat of her comments is accurate, though: the utopia set
forth by Plato in the guise of Socrates in the later books of _The
Republic_ is totalitarian in nature (fascist is a bit off in shade of
meaning) and anti-democratic. It's certainly elitist.
The fact is that the vast majority of the people who read this
interview will have no idea how to pronounce Nietzsche, much
less have any general idea of the different philosophies of N, P
or S. That's far more disturbing to me.
She has mentioned this before WRT "Sex Kills." I believe she
used Socrates name then instead of Plato when discussing the
"just the strong doing what they can, and the weak suffering what
they must" line, which can be seen as a sort of twist of Plato's
definition of justice. It's a bit of a perversion, but it gets at her
frustration with Plato's definition not addressing moral rightness.
This is all a bit of synchronicity as I've just begun rereading _The
Republic_.
- --Michael
NP: 10,000 Maniacs, _Our Time in Eden_
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:13:34 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: Joni Flavors and Then Some...
Julie quoted the NY Times saying:
<<>>
To what are they referring here? Is it Alanis's annoying over-
reliance on the list song? (Both "Ironic" and "Thank U" are lists
of things rather than, well, lyrics.) Because Joni has never done
that, that I can tell.
And not from the NY Times:
<<>>
Did you just get it? Now do you see why I was defending her so
strongly during the MTV/waif/anorexia thread a while back? This
record received very, very strong reviews upon its release, then
languished in commercial obscurity for a while. When her sales
started to take off the critics all of a sudden started lashing out at
her. It was so disgusting and unfair.
- --Michael
NP: 10,000 Maniacs, _Our Time in Eden_
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 12:45:03 -0600
From: mann@chicagonet.net
Subject: Colin...Joni Videos
Repeat your questions about the Joni
Videos.....must have missed it (I'm on digest
and there's lots to go thru...easy to miss stuff).
Maybe I can help you. I have some of her
videos.
Laura
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:51:14 -0500
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: JONI INTERVIEW (San Fran)
Joni says in the interview:
<<>>
I doubt that this is true. It's probably true that Maddie lost track of
Joni at the time, but there's no denying that she rediscovered _Hejira_
specifically before her most recent album. Perhaps this is what they
discussed at the Oscars?
Also, though Prince may have been young, he was less than two
years from recording his first album when HOSL was released.
It does seem that the key to Joni's benevolence WRT musical talent
is to express admiration for her post-C&S work. When you compare
her kind words for Janet Jackson (who loves "Beat of Black Wings")
with the couple of slightly contemptuous crumbs we've gotten from her
about Madonna (who has quoted _Blue_ in interviews and cited C&S
as a teenage favorite) it's very interesting.
<<>>
This is so true. So much of what is considered "good" in pop music
is descended from what was considered "good" by the white male
reviewers of _Rolling Stone_ in the late '60s.
<>>
What a fabulous story!! I wish I could have heard that...
WRT to Beck, she says:
<<>>
OK, Joni, just send me your snail mail address and I'd be happy to
make a tape of contemporary music chock-full of things you can like.
;-)
- --Michael
NP: Beastie Boys, _Hello Nasty_
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:55:52 EST
From: IVPAUL42@aol.com
Subject: Re: JONI INTERVIEW (San Fran)
In a message dated 11/1/98 1:07:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mwyarbro@zzapp.org writes:
<<
The fact is that the vast majority of the people who read this
interview will have no idea how to pronounce Nietzsche, much
less have any general idea of the different philosophies of N, P
or S. That's far more disturbing to me.
>>
Nietzsche, rhymes with lychee, as in the Korean? lychee nuts?
Does not rhyme with Nitschke, as in Ray Nitschke, the Hall of Fame middle
linebacker of the storied Green Bay Packers.
Paul I
(finding it awkward to use football references instead of baseball, but after
all, it is now November and I must keep up with the times)
NP: Paprika Plains of DJRD on the computer's CD-ROM
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 11:14:33 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: JONI INTERVIEW (San Fran)
Winfried wrote:
>Nietzsche has produced some of the most exciting prose written in the
>German language, but in his philosophy, there is not one single line
>that could serve to build a just life upon. For practical ethics, it's
>dangerous and irrational trash.
I have *never* understood Joni's affection for Nietzsche's philosophy and
think you may have a good point that she is taken in with the way he writes.
>I find her remarks on Socrates particularly disturbing, although I
>sincerely doubt she knows what she's talking about. Socrates never
>brought any of his teachings down to papyrus
If it has not been edited out, you are going to see Joni's short discussion
attributing the roots of Westen fascism to Socrates in the PPV show.
I thought the interview was pretty good - it was straight ahead, at least.
And she should definitely listen to more of Beck - I'm glad Michael will be
putting together a tape for her ;-)
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 15:13:00 -0500
From: "Julie Z. Webb"
Subject: RE: Joni Flavors and Then Some...
At 01:13 PM 11/1/98 -0500, Michael Yarbrough wrote:
>To what are they referring here? Is it Alanis's annoying over-
>reliance on the list song? (Both "Ironic" and "Thank U" are lists
>of things rather than, well, lyrics.) Because Joni has never done
>that, that I can tell.
Sorry to keep quoting things out of context these days. The "NYT"
reporter seems to be comparing her new album **overall,** "Supposed
Former Infatution Junkie," as being less melodic, and more
recitative---then her last release. (Maybe this is 'code' for not too
catchy or commercial.) Madonna, the co-chief executive of Maverick
Records, said, "There's nothing predictable about this record at all, and a
lot of it is more experiemental than I expected. She definately pushes the
envelope on this record as well as delivering some well-written songs."
As far as Im concerned, Id have to hear the new album to understand his
point, and I haven't heard it. Sounds like you have, and therefore, Im
assuming we have another example of a journalist who doesn't know a lot
about the music he is covering. But unlike many of you, I do not have
the skills to dissect song-writing to debate this. I either like the way
something sounds or I don't. And I do think that some of Joni's music
does sound like 'unfiltered diary entries'...but it never botherd me.
><<everyday for the last week.>>>
>Did you just get it? Now do you see why I was defending her so
>strongly during the MTV/waif/anorexia thread a while back? This
>record received very, very strong reviews upon its release, then
>languished in commercial obscurity for a while. When her sales
>started to take off the critics all of a sudden started lashing out at
>her. It was so disgusting and unfair.
My first experience to Fiona was seeing her "Criminal" video, and it felt
so commercially manipulative and too provocative for young girls---that I
was turned off. But then I read your comments, Michael, in the jmdl thread
pertaining to Fiona, and decided to chill a bit. Not too long after that,
I "heard" for the first time, Fiona singing "Shadowboxer" on a "Saturday
Night Live" repeat, and that was it, I was hooked. Aside from her hit
singles, (which were played to death on the radio,)---- her album, "Tidal,"
stands alone as incredibly soulful and lovely. For those of you out there
in jmdl-land, who are fond of the crystal-bare simplicity of Joni's piano
sounds in the songs, "Court and Spark" and "Blue," I think you will see why
Im so fond of "Tidal."
JulieZW
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 15:20:53 -0500 (EST)
From: bg26140@binghamton.edu
Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V3 #451
I also would like to put in a request for t-shirts. I'm one of the VERY
UNFORTUNATE ones who is unable to even go to the show. Somebody have pity
for me!
Eric
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 12:37:22 -0800
From: Susan Chaloner
Subject: Re: (JC coming soon) Catman's Query
catman wrote:
> |I asked, somewhere months ago, about three Joni Videos I saw-one was Chinese Cafe
> and it is so long ago now that I can't rememebr the other two. Anyhow, there was man
> in them-dark curly hair. Just wanted to know if this was Klien.
I don't know Catman, love...I don't know much, you know ;~) Was he cute?
Did he have big feet? Did he play with lead balloons? If all three
answers are 'Affirmative' I fail to see how Curly could have been anyone
else :~)
> Oh and by the way Sue, i think you are as cute as my two bitches!
Has our sweetheart Roberto been circulating photos again? ;~) Chelsea
mornin' Roberto, wherever you are sleeping...Thanks for the broom pass
Catman! Rascal sends you a big wet kiss :~*
Meggissimo Hugs,
Susan L.A.
"...Purring at your side..."-JoniM
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:38:05 -0600
From: "Happy The Man"
Subject: Joni on CNN
They are doing a short take on Gershwin on CNN right now and talked about
Stevie Wonder coming into the studio during the taping of "Summertime".
They added the harmonica as and afterthought. Joni and Herbie did not even
know he was in the studio.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:12:54 EST
From: Marilune@aol.com
Subject: Re: RE: Joni Flavors and Then Some...
In a message dated 11/1/98 1:16:52 PM, jzw@visint.com wrote:
>My first experience to Fiona was seeing her "Criminal" video, and it felt
>so commercially manipulative and too provocative for young girls---that I
>was turned off. But then I read your comments, Michael, in the jmdl thread
>pertaining to Fiona, and decided to chill a bit. Not too long after that,
>I "heard" for the first time, Fiona singing "Shadowboxer" on a "Saturday
>Night Live" repeat, and that was it, I was hooked. Aside from her hit
>singles, (which were played to death on the radio,)---- her album, "Tidal,"
>stands alone as incredibly soulful and lovely. For those of you out there
>in jmdl-land, who are fond of the crystal-bare simplicity of Joni's piano
>sounds in the songs, "Court and Spark" and "Blue," I think you will see why
>Im so fond of "Tidal."
i got fiona's record and liked it okay. it was that lazy summer honey melting
into winter cinnamon sort of music that was appealing to me. but i just don't
get fiona's additude. she's become sort of the poster girl for rape. i felt
bad for her when she began crying during a rolling stone interview, but her
way of lashing out is just not okay. rape is not funny. it's become too
commonplace a word in society that all the power has been taken out it. take
the nirvana song "rape me" (which i like for the tune and implication, i just
think the lyrics are difficult): "rape me, rape me my friend, rape me, rape me
again."
i think fiona's a little manipulative and whiney and whether or not she's
anorexic, i don't care. i sold back my record.
- -mariana
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:46:38 -0500
From: "M & C Urbanski"
Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V3 #451
- ----------
> From: bg26140@binghamton.edu
> To: joni@smoe.org
> Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V3 #451
> Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 3:20 PM
>
> I also would like to put in a request for t-shirts. I'm one of the VERY
> UNFORTUNATE ones who is unable to even go to the show. Somebody have
pity
> for me!
>
> Eric
>
For those who do not get any concert shirts... I'd be glad to bootleg some
shirts in the name of the JMDL.
I'd be glad to make them as a fund raiser for the Joni home page so Wally
can have some funds.
I have a t-shirt business. Of course I don't want to go to jail so maybe
something can be worked out.
The "happiness is the best facelift" would be a piece of cake to make. I
could also make one with the
cover of every LP on it. Call it "Joni's greatest hits" or I can paint a
Joni portait or I can with permission make the
Joni/Van/Bob painting on the home page a t-shirt, Ken Corral would get a
cut of course. Many ideas!
Just let me know.
Marilyn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 13:57:37 -0800
From: Mary Grace Valentinsson
Subject: Joni PPV 11/06 - Bay Area stuff
I'm hosting a PPV get together slumber party. The show starts at 8, I'll
have dinner/show munchies and for once relax my rule about no eating
in the living room. (please don't touch the walls or white woodwork,
though and clean up your messes).
The Crocker Art Museum in nearby Sac is having a show of
paintings/drawings/studies by Toulouse L. and so I thought that we could
do something educational and artsy-fartsy on Saturday.
E-mail me if interested. Spouses, significant others, groupies and kids
invited. BYOB, (bedding), accomodations are freshly decorated but
spartan.
MG
np: The L Man in my ear: "How much longer do we have to stay at
work?"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 15:19:40 -0700
From: Bounced Message
Subject: Last chance 11/1 MSG
From: Michael Jacobs
Still have 2 tickets for tonight in 331-Best offer-can meet before show
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 18:19:50 EST
From: RADJSHARP@aol.com
Subject: SF article
Has anyone found the SF article/interview? I need an address please!
Bob
NP- The Chiefs v. the Jets
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 15:34:46 -0800
From: Susan Chaloner
Subject: (NJC)Sleepy Sunday
It's so quiet listside this Sleepy Sunday...I'd like to take this
opportunity to tell anyone who is even remotely contemplating giving me
and/or mine a hard time:
"...KISS MY ASS..." in advance ;~b
I just couldn't resist: must be the Irish blood ;~)
Meggissimo Hugs,
Susan L.A.
"...To know me is to love me
I must be one hell of a man
Oh lord, it's hard to humble but
I'm doin' the best that I can..."-Willie and the boys?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:14:09 EST
From: Barrylauri@aol.com
Subject: Re: You know you're a hardcore Joni fan when...
In a message dated 98-10-31 12:36:50 EST, Harpua@revealed.net writes:
> ...you sing or hum the parts where Joni tunes up on the tape trees.
>
> Any others?
You see a license plate with NJC and you immediately think: no joni content
Laurie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 11:57:16 +1000
From: Marian Rulewski
Subject: Re: (NJC)Sleepy Sunday
Why would anyone even try to give you a hard time? Is there something I don't know?
>>> Susan Chaloner 11/02 9:34 am >>>
It's so quiet listside this Sleepy Sunday...I'd like to take this
opportunity to tell anyone who is even remotely contemplating giving me
and/or mine a hard time:
"...KISS MY ASS..." in advance ;~b
I just couldn't resist: must be the Irish blood ;~)
Meggissimo Hugs,
Susan L.A.
"...To know me is to love me
I must be one hell of a man
Oh lord, it's hard to humble but
I'm doin' the best that I can..."-Willie and the boys?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 01:04:42 +0000
From: catman
Subject: Re: (NJC)Sleepy Sunday
Yes there is lots and lots you do not know about our Miss Chaloner.
But not being one to gossip.....
You'll find out.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 01:54:29 +0000
From: catman
Subject: And I Quote...
On the BBC text service their is a daily page called And I Quote... It
lists quotes by various people picked up daily.
'It's interesting how people hear your sad songs and think you must be
miserable. They don't think William Shakespeare was miserable just
because he wrote about tragedy.' Flok-jazz songstress Joni Mitchell.
My bet is that last sentence would give her something to moan about!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 21:01:19 -0500
From: "Julie Z. Webb"
Subject: Re:NJC Joni Flavors and Then Some...
At 04:12 PM 11/1/98 EST, mariana wrote:
> i think fiona's a little manipulative and whiney and whether or not she's
>anorexic, i don't care. i sold back my record.
Hi Mariana,
To tell you the truth, with the exception of the obvious lyrics in her hit
songs, I have no idea what Fiona is singing about on the rest of the cd.
It's her voice, her melodies, her harmonies and her piano-playing that I love.
-JulieZW, who does a lot more humming these days
ps. Hey Terry, bet you can relate, no?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 18:10:01 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Joni article in Nov. US Magazine - Part 1
Since it is a sleepy Sunday and we are waiting for the NY reviews to roll
in, thought I'd share this article. Lot of the same old stuff and a little
new stuff and new twists. Mention of "the Joni Mitchell Web site" in
Kilauren's search. A few great photos.
JONI MITCHELL GIVES PEACE A CHANCE By Kim France
The Hotel Bel-Air is very L.A. - a lush, hydrangea-scented Eden with Bulgari
tolieteries in the guest bungalows, a place where stars of stage and film
sit at the pool under big straw hats and carefully reapplly lipstick. It
seems a bit high affect for the relatively earthy Joni Mitchell, but the
54-year-old singer-songwriter lives just down the road, and the Bel Air has
become something of a second home to her - a place where she prefers to
conduct interviews. Today, out on a private patio of her suite for the day,
the kitchen staff has laid out a beautiful lunch: carrot-ginger soup, endive
salad, grilled swordfish. But for Mitchell, whose graceful new album Taming
The Tiger, was released last month, food is never the main attraction. Fish
has got to swim, and Joni Mitchell has got to smoke, and she does so to the
exclusion of almost all other activities. She smokes not in the hopped-up,
frenetic manner we associate with true addicts, but calmly and with a great
deal of entitlement, as though it was the most natural thing since
breathing.
Mitchell, though friendly enough, carries herself with the imperiousness of
someone who knows she is a legend. After starting life as Roberta Joan
Anderson in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Mitchell went on to set the standard
for all female singer-songwriters with her album Ladies of the Canyon (which
features classics like Big Yellow Taxi and Woodstock). Her intimate
folk-pop music has inspired many of today's artists, including k.d. lang and
Courtney Love. "Her arrangements and use of jazz chords and her lyrics were
specifically influential to us," says Luscious Jackson singer Jill Cunniff.
"We combine it with other stuff like rap, but she's definitely there."
Mitchell is also famously outspoken, something that has not always made her
particularly popular. ("I am an arrogant artist," she told Details in 1996
"And I'm sick of the false humility.") After achieving fame in the late
'60s and early '70s with confessional songs like Both Sides Now anmd Help
Me, Mitchell spent the next two decades following a more esoteric muse,
experimenting with jazz and world music long before it was stylish to do so.
Critics were underwhelmed, and Mitchell lashed out at them for failing to
recognize the genius of her work. And in a business where feuds are often
conducted behind the scenes, she publicly accused her former record label
Geffen of holding back royalties it owed her.
But these days, Mitchell has few complaints. "I feel really good," she says.
"I'm very pleased with this album. And I don't feel undervalued or thrown
out for the new, supposedly improved Joni." Mitchell's re-emergence began
in 1994 when she released the Grammy-winning Turbulent Indigo, her best and
most accessible album in years. Taming the Tiger is a worthy follow-up: a
subdued, slightly jazzy album, that is, like her best work, painterly in its
attention to detail - and one that examines the perils and exhilarations of
middle-aged love affairs. Reviews of tge akbum have been good, but Mitchell
has learned to accept both criticism and praise with a grain of salt. "It's
almost arbitrary," she says, "like, 'Oh, we said something nice last time;
prepare to roast this time.' [But] I think there's been a bit of a reprieve.
I think the climate has changed."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 18:31:14 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Joni article in US Magazine - Part 2
[continued]
It is in her personal life, however, that the real seismic shifts have
occurred. Four years ago, a former friend from her art-school days, told a
reporter that in 1965, Mitchell, flat broke, had given birth to a daughter
in Toronto and put her up for adoption a few weeks later (the father was
Micthell's boyfriend at the time, photographer Brad MacMath). Having her
most closely guarded secret made public in a tabloid newspaper was a jolt,
Mitchell says, "but I decided that I had nothing to hide." She confirmed
the story to the press and announced that she would like to find her
daughter. As luck would have it, Kilauren Gibb, 1 33-year old former model
living in Toronto, had been searching for her biological mother since the
age of 27, when her parents, both retired academics, told her she was
adopted. Gibb had received a limited amount of information about the birth
[arents from Canada's Children's Aid Society. She knew that her mother grew
up in Saskatoon, had polio as a child (Mitchell still suffers from
post-polio syndrome, a mild recurrence of the disease, which is similar to
multiple sclerosis) and was a successful Canadian folk singer. Friends told
Gibb that Mitchell was looking for her daughter, so Gibb - who wasn't even
very familiar with Mitchell's music - logged on to the Joni Mitchell Web
site and was stunned by the similarities to the information that she had
received, as well as by such cosmetic similarities as high cheekbones abd
blond hair. She contacted Mitchell's manager - who was suspicious at first,
since more than 30 other women had also come forward - and told him her
story. When the news reached Mitchell, she phoned Gibbs and asked to see
one of her baby pictures. Soon after receiving the photo, a reunion was
planned. On March 13, 1997, Gibb arrived at Mitchell's house in L.A. with
her son, Marlin, then 4 years old. (Gibb is separated from Marlin's father,
a Toronto-based drummer). "The coming of my family changed me completely,"
Mitchell says, then pauses to light another American Spirit. "During the
first visit, which was about three weeks long, we just gave ourselves over
to the celebration of this miracle."
Mitchell says the two discovered some similarities, like the fact that they
both like to play pool, and she adds that she was startled to learn that
Gibb's face was on bottles of Evian spritzer for a while. "I don't know how
many times I borrowed my best friend Gloria's spritzer when we were doing
press runs through Europe," she says, "and sprayed my face with my fingers
over my daughter's face." She told her daughter that she'd "left a kind of
bread-crumb trail" for her in certain of hter songs (Little Green from Blue,
is about parents who put a child up for adoption). "I just wanted to keep
her in the puse of my life - these mentions that I was thinking of her. And
she said 'Joan, these things are so subtle, I would never have known it was
about me.'"
The two are in close contact, but Mitchell allows that the relationship is
not without its rough spots. "It's hard," she says. "Our situation is
abnormal. We have a general affinity, but there are pockets of adjustments,
and we've had a couple of skirmishes. But we've had some beautiful times,
and yes, it's working. It's going along beautifully. I love my kid and my
grandson. It's thrilling."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:56:54 EST
From: TerryM2442@aol.com
Subject: Re: NJC Joni Flavors and Then Some...
In a message dated 98-11-01 21:05:50 EST, jzw@visint.com writes:
<< To tell you the truth, with the exception of the obvious lyrics in her hit
songs, I have no idea what Fiona is singing about on the rest of the cd.
It's her voice, her melodies, her harmonies and her piano-playing that I
love.
-JulieZW, who does a lot more humming these days
ps. Hey Terry, bet you can relate, no? >>
Absolutely! I'm only familiar with Fiona's first hit song and really loved the
melody and singing. I don't even remember the name of it. But that's how all
songs affect me. The sound of them. This list really has helped me to
appreciate lyrics more, but even so, it's still the music that draws me in.
Terry
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 18:58:32 -0800
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Joni in US Magazine - Part 3
[continued] (Note from Kakki - some parts of this may increase blood
pressure in some!)
Gibb's existence helps to explain the air of mystery and moodiness that has
always been part of Mitchell's image. After the rush of fame with Blue in
1971, she retreated to a house she ahd purchased in British Columbia. "To
lose my daughter," she says, "and then to suddenly be catapulted into the
public eye - the combination was disturbing. So I withdrew from people for
a long time." What she learned out in the wilderness, she says, is how to
use her pain to creat art: "Depression is a teaching device. It's an
opportunity. Depression drives you involuntarily into contemplation,
whether you like it or not."
These days, Mitchell travels to the hosue in British Columbia about twice a
year. "It's a place where I can kind of restore my soul," she says. "I'm
the gardener and the cook and the housekeeper, and I'm alone in nature.
I've had some colorful adventures up in that particular place. I've battled
with bears and with my apple tree." She also spends time in her hometown of
Saskatoon, where her boyfriend, musician and teacher Don Freed, lives. "He
teaches mainly Indian reservation children to write songs," she says. "He's
an interesting man with an intersting calling." They live in separate
cities but get together when they can, and they often travel together.
"We've been together five years," she says. "It's been quite an
extraordinary relationship."
Thous Mitchell said earlier this year on a Los Angeles radio show that the
experience of discovering her family is still too new to write about, there
are several songs on Taming the Tiger that are about her relationship with
Freed. "Face Lift" is Mitchell's plea for her mother - who introduced the
couple but didn't expect them to become intimate - to accept her happiness.
Another song, Stay in Touch, "is about an attempt at wise conduct during the
smitten period of your relationship, which is very, very difficult," says
Mitchell, who has been married twice (to folk singer Chuck Mitchell in 1965
and to bassist and producer Larry Klein in 1982). "That song is, for me,
going to be the most useful."
The album's title track is a love/hate note to the ephemeral nature of
celebrity, and in it Mitchell sings of searching up and down the radio dial
but finding only "Formula music/Girlie guile!/Genuine junk food/For
juveniles!" Mitchell makes no secret of her distaste for current pop. "I
can't really listen to the music of this generation," she says. "They have
false cunning in their voices. It's melodrama, it's bad acting for the most
part. Even the best of them are not sincere." One of the reasons she still
records, she adds, is to give audiences and intelligent alternative to all
the dross. "I don't need more fame, I don't need more fortune, but I
believe in the work," she says. "It's an altruistic thing. It's good for
people, you know?" There has always been something of the prim schoolmarm
in Mitchell. She feels that too many female singers have let their acts
degenerate into nothing more than "peep shows" and that "there's just
something ultimately more becoming about a little decorum on a female."
Even when she goes out on the town, as she has more in recent years, she
finds herself nonplussed. At this year's Vanity Fair post-Oscars bash in
Los Angeles, she says, she was too bothered by the pounding disco beat to be
able to have a real conversation. "The Judds and I led a revolution on the
sound truck to change the music," she says. Mitchell is most happy when she
is with her closest friends, new family and four cats. And she insists that
she does, in fact, enjoy cutting loose from time to time. "You can't get
too clean and self-righteous. Every once in a while I like to go out and
get really drunk." And one can almost picture her dancing on the table.
(the end)
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V3 #453
**************************
Don't forget about these ongoing projects:
FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related
questions? -send them to
Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to
Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact?
-send it to
-------
Post messages to the list at
Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to
-------
Siquomb, isn't she?