From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #440 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, October 26 1998 Volume 03 : Number 440 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Chicago set list [Scott and Jody ] Video scheduled for release 12/1/98 [Janet Hess ] Re: "The NYTimes Magazine's" letters to the editor (NJC) ["Deb Messling" ] star-ledger TTT review ["Deb Messling" ] Re: "The NYTimes Magazine's" letters to the editor ["Kakki" ] Natalie-NJC [MP123A321@aol.com] Joni books [MP123A321@aol.com] album vote, Hejira and the two Howards [Howard Wright ] Astrology and other NJC [David Wright ] fav. albums ranking [David Wright ] RS album guide and others (NJC) [David Wright ] Thoughts on TTT [David Wright ] Birthsigns [Hassan Zubairi ] Re: Joni's art (long) ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: the human condition [PMcfad@aol.com] Re: (NJC) Taurus trouble [heather ] DJRD - Anyone has NYC tickets? - DJRD [Kai Wong ] Top albums/Astro sign ["742 - Ainsworth, Cheryl A" ] Joni's Sad Slide, Pt. 2 [jw1327 ] Aber Von Tussle (NJC) [jw1327 ] Ways to handle the JMDL information flow. ["morten feiring" ] Re: Juerg and his TTT evaluation ["Juerg Loeffler" ] Re: NY Times letters [BarBearUh ] Joni in Chicago and Minneapolis [Howard Motyl ] RE: Joni in Chicago [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Joni in Chicago (Long Review of Concert) ["Patricia O'Connor" ] Zodiac Poll (so far) NJC [Bounced Message ] Chicago Tribune review [FredNow@aol.com] Re: NY Times letters ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 02:09:17 -0600 From: Scott and Jody Subject: Chicago set list Hi, Brad here. Typing on Jody and Scott's computer. Just wanted to dash off the set list real quick again. I'll follow later with more cracker-jack reporting from the refuge of the road. Big Yellow Taxi Just Like This Train Night Ride Home Crazy Cries of Love Free Man In Paris Harry's House (no Centerpiece. Why did she drop that?) Black Crow (Did I say smokin') Amelia Hejira Happiness Is The Best Face Lift Sex Kills ("This song has taken on a whole new meaning since Clinton started poking his cigars around") Magdalene Laundries Moon At The Window (she started this song but stopped about two lines in, at the line 'Nobody's harder on me than me', and decided that she wasn't going to do it. She said the reason was that she had already talked too much and needed to move on. I heard a guitar mistake that made her stop the song and then at that point,rather than start over, she decided not to do it.) Trouble Man Comes Love Encore Woodstock She played for 75 minutes. The differences being, 'Moon At The Window' and 'Don Juan's Reckless Daughter' in Minneapolis, not in Chicago, and an encore of 'Woodstock' in Chicago, no encore in Minneapolis. Brad (and Kim and Jody and Scott) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 03:35:27 -0500 From: Janet Hess Subject: Video scheduled for release 12/1/98 I couldn't sleep so decided to log on...while wandering the marvels of Music Boulevard, I noticed that they have an upcoming Joni video listed: "Evening with Joni Mitchell," Record Label: PGD/Polygram Pop/Jazz, scheduled for release on 12/01/98; List price $79.95, Music Blvd price $71.99. Guess this is commercial release of the pay-per-view event coming up soon, yes? And just in time for solstice/Christmas/Channukah/kwanzaa presents. :-) It's some year for Joni fans, thank goodness. Cheerz, Janet, still wondering about smuggling a cat into Row 17 on the floor in College Park ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 05:45:24 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: "The NYTimes Magazine's" letters to the editor (NJC) Julie spoke of: >the NYTM pattern in the way that they > profile women I don't know if it's the same people at the helm anymore, but I remember in the early eighties the magazine was kind of taken over by "neoconservatives" who published a great deal of venomous anti-feminist stuff. It wasn't at all subtle. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 05:52:34 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: star-ledger TTT review Here's a review from the biggest newspaper in New Jersey: By Jay Lustig Star-Ledger Staff Joni Mitchell won a Grammy for best pop album in 1996 and joined the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame last year, but she hasn't let the recognition give her a false sense of confidence. "Accolades and honors/One false move and you're a goner," she sings, exploring the ups and downs of the music business on the title track of her new album, "Taming the Tiger." Mitchell has been in the public eye a lot lately, and not just when making acceptance speeches. She has made a tentative return to the concert trail -- in August, she sang at the "Day in the Garden" concert at the original Woodstock Festival site in Bethel, N.Y., and she'll be at Madison Square Garden with Bob Dylan Nov. 1. Plus, everyone from Sarah McLachlan to the Artist (formerly known as Prince) has cited her as an influence, and Janet Jackson sampled her "Big Yellow Taxi" on "Got 'Til It's Gone." If this pioneering singer-songwriter is ever going to benefit from the "star-maker machinery behind the popular song" -- as she described the music biz in 1974's "Free Man In Paris" -- now is the time. Though she is not backing off from the airy, jazz-influenced sounds that have dominated her albums of the last two decades, "Taming the Tiger" is her most accessible album of that era. She sounds playful and animated again, purring "nice kitty, kitty" and decrying the music industry's "junkfood for juveniles" on the title track; describing a gaudy side show, with a barker audible in the background, in "Harlem in Havana"; and snarling "lawyers and loan sharks are laying America to waste" on "No Apologies." Mitchell is also in a feisty mood musically. Grunge-rock power chords ground "Lead Balloon," while "Face Lift" floats on billows of synthesized strings. "Harlem in Havana" features some trendy electronic dance beats. Five songs benefit from Wayne Shorter's lyrical sax playing. This is a gorgeous album, as rich in tone and texture as any of Mitchell's past work. One of the first pop singers to use unconventional guitar tunings, Mitchell colors every song differently here by squeezing a broad range of sounds out of a guitar synthesizer. For all its restless creativity, "Taming the Tiger" isn't all fun and games. Mitchell confronts heartbreak in mournful, resigned songs like "Man From Mars" (where she sings "Since I lost you/I can't get through the day/Without at least one big boo hoo") and "Stay In Touch." Yet both these exercises in melancholia are immediately followed by hopeful songs of new love -- "Love Puts On a New Face" and "Face Lift," respectively. The latter song is also cleverly self-mocking. Mitchell relates a conversation where she complains, "Love takes so much courage," only to be upbraided: "You've seen too many movies, Joni ... Snap out of it." The album's only serious misstep is "My Best To You," a lullaby undercut by mannered singing, distracting synth squiggles, and a percussion pattern that's out of synch with the rest of the music. This is a simple song, full of lines like "Never be unkind" and "May your skies be blue," but Mitchell is unable to deliver it with the directness it requires. Her need to constantly reinvent the wheel is a detriment here. But without this trait, the rest of "Taming the Tiger" wouldn't be so compelling. Mitchell's 1996 Grammy win for the uneven "Turbulent Indigo" might have been due to sentimentality. Veteran artists, after all, tend to win Grammys whether or not they deserve them. But "Taming the Tiger" is strong enough to demand consideration on its own merits. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 01:39:12 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: "The NYTimes Magazine's" letters to the editor Terry wrote: >It has always bothered me that the adoptive parent's feelings have been >pretty much disregarded. When the story blew, I'd wondered if they even >knew who their daughter's birthmom was before the rest of the world did. >Seeing Joni's and Kilauran's shining faces all over the newspapers made >me ache for their feelings. Terry I know what you are saying and I wouldn't argue that Kilauren's adoptive parents' feelings have been somewhat disregarded and it is really unfortunate. But I think it has more to do with Joni being a celebrity and naturally the focus of the articles rather than it being Joni's fault - as if she somehow "stole" Kilauren away and then took all the credit. I am just reacting to what I felt were mischaracterizations in those writers' letters to the Times. I went back tonight and read the article again to see what I may have missed. >I think that Joni *should* have been described as Kilauren's biomom. She was described as such in the article but, maybe because there was not enough emphasis on the adoptive parents, it irked people. (Joni seems to be doing a lot of that lately in the printed word). Here are the relevant excerpts from the article: >At 54, Joni Mitchell has suddenly found herself in possession of a daughter, a grandson and a desire to write light songs. Throughout her career, Mitchell dropped hints in her songs for her only child to find. Although Gibb knew the biography of her birth mother -- that she was a Canadian folk singer -- she never dreamed that she was Mitchell's child. Then, in 1996, The New York Times described Mitchell's search for her daughter. A friend of Gibb's, who saw the story, joked that Mitchell could be Gibb's birth mother. Gibb had only recently been told that he was adopted, and she already had a son. She decided to investigate. Eventually, she and Mitchell were united. As for the adoptive parents, Mitchell says: "We worked through all of that. I'm totally grateful to them, and Kilauren hasn't forgotten about them." Kakki NP: The best band to ever come out of New Jersey (sorry, Bruce) The Smithereens who I finally saw live tonight!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 05:43:50 -0400 From: DSK11 Subject: Joni's art (long) Seems that discussion of Joni's art is winding down, but as an artist I wanted to get my comments in now rather than wait for the subject to return. I can appreciate that some listers have an unbounded love of everything Joni creates. I warn everyone, though, that my thoughts generally range from not impressed to downright negative, so whoever gets offended, just let me know; I'll be here. For the most part, I've not paid much attention to Joni's artwork over the years, considering it usually "nice" and serving to illustrate her music. The only image I spent any time thinking about was the one on Wild Things Run Fast of her with a dark-haired dark-eyed man (didn't even know then she was married), where she and he are cheek-to-cheek. It's very bluish on the album (unfortunately only black and white in the CD booklet). Even in color reproduction though the color's very bland, but I like the feeling of her happiness and comfortableness that comes across. As for her paintings on TI and TTT: I agree with TerryM's comment that Joni's paintings are not original. By that I mean they're not honest. It's as though Joni went through art books and indiscriminately copied a little from here, a little from there in such a wide-ranging way I can't even tell who her art "heros" are. It doesn't feel like she's painting from her gut. Yes, her paintings are pretty, and probably even more so in person, but from Joni I expect more; I expect her paintings to be as honest as her music and until then, beyond their initial pleasing quality, they don't interest me. To get specific: It's not only brushstrokes or color palettes that she's copied; some images I've seen before, such as the icy landscape inside the TI cover, the picnic table on the back, "Flaming June" done by Frederic Leighton in 1895 (and, as Sherrie pointed out, it's not cool that Joni did not give any credit to Leighton), the Maxfield Parrish "Idle" person by the river, and of course the Van Gogh self portrait (to me it's offensive, and not at all funny, that Joni equates her relatively easy life with the tragedy of Van Gogh's life; seems callous to me). Then there's the primitive Henri Rousseau style of the animal amid fronds; the smooth edges, brown palette, extreme light/dark man (that I can see as a monk in a brown cowl) that could have been painted in the 1600s (minus the modern objects like lightbulb and switch of course) by Caravaggio (or, more likely, someone influenced by him such as Zurburan). (As an aside, I don't agree with several listers thinking this painting's style is similar to Edward Hopper's style -- this painting is too dark, the brushstrokes are too smooth, the light seems to come from an artificial source unlike Hopper's use of sunlight, and most of all, there's not enough space around the figure, which Hopper's paintings always have, and which makes his figures seem so lonely.) And then there's the ocean hitting the rock scene which also looks very familiar; and the Camille Pissaro-style (good call, Patrick) portrait on the front. I apologize for being so pedantic, but I wanted to make myself clear here since I'm being so unappreciative of Joni's paintings. Of course, all artists are influenced by what has been done before and usually experiment in different styles on the way to finding their own truth. But copies, no matter how pretty or technically well-executed, you hide, repaint or give to your mother, who, you hope, will not think they're so great she makes them public. The one painting I do find moving is the hand-on-the-knee painting, especially its unusual and awkward viewpoint (very personal and contemporary), and the autumn leaves (these are not teenagers). Joni's music is full of small, precise, resonating images like this that most people would not notice. So, bottom line, Joni can paint exactly what she wants. I hope she has decades ahead of her in which to find her honest "voice" as a painter and not just continue to put it all in a pot and think something meaningful is going to come out. The technical ability that she seems to be concentrating on now is the easy part. Debra Shea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 06:09:06 EST From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: Natalie-NJC I saw about 20 minutes of VH-1 Storytellers with Natalie Merchant last night. Did anyone tape this? I could use a copy. Plenty to trade. Also need Shawn Colvin from Storytellers last season, I heard it aired only once. Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 06:16:18 EST From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: Joni books I was at Barnes and Noble a couple of weeks ago looking for a Joni book. When the person did a search she came up with Joni Mitchell / Memoirs -due in 5/99. Has anyone actually seen a recent Joni book called "Paved Paradise" - I saw it advertised in Goldmine? It is from the UK. That is all the info I have. Anyone else? Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:30:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Howard Wright Subject: album vote, Hejira and the two Howards Howard Motyl write: >pj >I appreciate you tabulating our votes and I have been reading them >voraciously to see how many people agreed with me :-) > >However-- > >you got the two Howard's mixed up--Howard M's top album is Hejira, not >Blue. I am Howard M and Blue is number two for me. > >Howard W was credited with choosing Hejira as number one, but I suspect >he chose Blue as number one. No, I'm a Hejira man through and through! I voted for Hejira for my number one - pj got my vote correctly listed. I'd like to add my thanks to pj - it was interesting to see how the votes add up. The top 5 or 6 looked fairly similar to the result of the album poll that Les ran on the JMDL site last year (if my somewhat shaky memory serves me right ...) Hejira in front, and then Blue, C&S, FTR, Hissing and DJRD all in a fairly close group. Hejira looked to be in front by more with this vote than it was in Les' poll - I think Hissing was a pretty close second that time. Howard W. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:27:01 +0000 From: David Wright Subject: Astrology and other NJC David Wright -- a proud TAURUS (May 12); don't know about moon shadows and so forth. (The astrology thread and mentions of Little Green have got me wondering: was Kilauren truly born with the moon in cancer, or was that poetic license?) ....And an unusual bit of synchronicity happened to me today (this is so NJC I wouldn't share it if I didn't find it truly extraordinary): I was in a music store today with two friends. I bought Nick Cave's _Murder Ballads_ (on sale), and one of my friends bought Massive Attack's _Mezzanine_. After we made our purchases, I noticed the latest Mojo at a display near the counter, so I picked it up to read the review of the new PJ Harvey album, which says, "...this album is like a cross between Nick Cave's _Murder Ballads_ and Massive Attack's _Mezzanine_." - --David NP: British folk compilation from Rob Jordan NR: _The Detainees_, by Sean Hughes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:12:04 +0000 From: David Wright Subject: fav. albums ranking I know the votes have already been tabulated but I wanted to share. I am interested in the "when/how did you become acquainted with this album" aspect of this thread so I will say a little about that: Flood of memory....I grew up with many of the songs from Joni's first few albums (STAS through FTR), albums that my parents bought when they first came out. I can't remember when I first heard them. (They had C&S and Hejira on vinyl too, but didn't play them as much.) Blue, on my parents' vinyl, was the first Joni album that I really listened to as an album. Beginning about five years ago, the summer of 1993, I started listening to the other albums more, especially the C&S and Hejira, and bought DED and HOSL (both on used vinyl -- I didn't have a CD player yet). I bought NRH at Christmastime, 1993. (It is interesting, I am sitting here reconstructing in my mind, looking for clues to remember the dates accurately.) In summer 1994, at summer camp, in the woods of northern Michigan, I lay many nights awake on my bunk in the cabin after lights-out (which was ridiculously early, like 10:00; I was never sleepy) and listened to many of these albums on my walkman, especially Hejira. One night I put Hejira in and it was as if I had never heard it before. All I can say is in many ways my entire experience of Hejira comes back to and is forever haunted by this single hearing. I bought TI when it came out. DJRD I didn't hear until this past spring, so I discovered it within my time on the list (and posted about that). And TTT, of course. None of this really goes to explain my ranking, which is: 1. DJRD and Hejira 3. Blue 4. NRH 5. C&S - --David, who also would rank Clouds rather (very) low NP: Alpha, _Come From Heaven_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 18:31:59 +0000 From: David Wright Subject: RS album guide and others (NJC) Michael Y. wrote: > >furthermore, each reviewer pretty much covered one >decade, so it's easier to get a feel of what each reviewer feels >are the most significant records of a given time. Of the four, >J.D. Considine has the best ear IMO. It seemed to me that they were divided between the reviewers more by genre - -- like P.E. (I forget his name) gets a lot of the folk/trad.-derivatives: Sandy Denny, and probably Joni and Jackson Browne, and down into the Indigo Girls and Shawn Colvin and the like today if I remember correctly. D.M. (Dave Marsh?) does the classic blues, like Bessie Smith and Robert Johnson and Ma Rainey. Another (book) guide I have found valuable and entertaining, along with the RS Album Guide and the Spin Alternative Rock Guide, is the Trouser Press Guide to Alternative Rock (I think it's called). (They are fairly loose in their definition of "alternative," but I don't remember if I've looked for much R&B, soul or rap in it. I can tell you Joni isn't in there.) The most recent edition is for the '90s alone; the last edition (about 10 years old now) covered the previous 20 or more years. The 10-year old edition had some truly obscure but fascinating entries, like for Bjork's two pre-Sugarcubes Icelandic Goth bands, "K.U.K.L." and "Tappi Tikkarras." (sp?) A favorite line in the current edition describes an Ani DiFranco song "which asks the question 'what if when we're dead we're just dead?' -- take that, Joan Osborne!" And Robert Christgau's guides (one for the '70s, which also includes some late '60s albums, and one for the '80s) are often wounding, and not comprehensive, but he is the funniest critic I've ever read, and a great bullshit detector, and political; and not only do his capsule reviews somehow say more than the lengthy reviews of other publications, he can sometimes perfectly NAIL the spirit of a record for me like no other critic (e.g., Kate and Anna McGarrigle's _Dancer with Bruised Knees_). - --David NP: John Cale, _Paris 1919_ now eating: lemon yogurt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:11:30 +0000 From: David Wright Subject: Thoughts on TTT Hi all, A few general comments....I originally complained about the monotony of the VG8 sound on TTT. I remind myself that I originally found the electric guitar of Hejira monotonous, whereas now I love its sound and the way it works for the album. Right now, though I can't imagine ever loving the VG8 sound, I have gotten to where I don't notice it anymore, it doesn't really detract. I find that the album is unified in many other ways as well (more below). So -- a lot of little observations: I love Harlem in Havana. I love the shift from the introduction's pulse of three to the rest of the song's pulse of two. And I love the guitar blasts in the instrumental part. Man From Mars. I love the arrangement of this, especially the piano chords. It has an almost "film noir" effect for me. I also find it lyrically the easiest to grasp on the album, and with the clearest melody - -- in terms of accessibility and immediate appeal, I think this should have been the first single instead of Crazy Cries. (Maybe it wasn't because of its already being in the film?) Harmonically, the jump to major (or major-ish) on "this time you went too far" is not convincing to me but I love the rest of it. Love Puts on a New Face. I see a link here between "what a pocket of heavenly grace" and "no grace in my heart" from the previous song. I also love the line "we are as young as the night" -- it's beautifully double-edged to me, meaning both we are old and we are young. It's interesting that some reviewers seem to have picked this (especially the alligators part) as another I-hate-the-record-biz song; I hear it as a very tender, personal, painful song about loving someone who's in a depression. Lead Balloon. I think it's interesting that this song uses a dog metaphor ("sic her Rover") whereas the rest of the album is cat-dominated (Man from Mars, TTT, etc.). I don't see it as a parody of hard rock -- I think the rhythms and phrase structure of the verses are too irregular (in a very Joni way; I like it, it's just not stylistic for hard rock). I just like it for what it is. I think her singing is quite expressive, especially in the choruses. I love the way the pitch bends weirdly on the final chord -- I like Marian's suggestion that it's like air going out of a balloon, except I wonder, do *lead* balloons deflate thusly? No Apologies. Lyrically nothing new, and I don't think "radiate" is what she was thinking of in the last stanza -- "irradiate," maybe. One "radiates" warmth or happiness or joy or some other feelings (as in "radiant"). Yes, I know what she means anyway. I do love the music and the laid-back, grooving rhythm of this song. No Apologies, like the title track, quotes nursery rhymes ("snakes and snails..."). TTT, well, we know about that one... Crazy Cries. Permanently altered for me by Esquizito's suggestion that "ice cream is melting on a piece of pie" is a sexual metaphor. Surely someone has also noticed "they were hoping it was going to be a long one"? For a long time I heard "every touch was totally *tender*," which is much clearer to me than "totally tandem." Stay In Touch. Just charming and beautiful. A bit of the Hejira album in this song ("in the middle of this continent/in the middle of our time on earth"). Facelift. My favorite on the album. The opening ("I went so numb...") sets a stunning mood. As I've said before, this is one of Joni's saddest songs for me (despite the last stanza) -- the pain in "snap out of it!" tears me apart. My Best to You. Joni makes this song amazingly tolerable. It fits so well in the context of the album. I don't like the synth arpeggios in the accompaniment -- they sound like some sort of Olympic fanfare, and in a song that's corny to begin with. Overall -- a really intimate album, as others have said, and imbued with Joni's unique and lovely grace. Discussion? My favorite paintings are the booklet back cover, the profile of Don looking over the river, and idol/idyll/ideal/idle (especially). We have this week off from school so I'm taking the train to Glasgow, Scotland tomorrow -- and who knows where after that. It's no phones till Friday for me.... Take care all, - --David NP: Elliott Smith, _Either/Or_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:40:41 -0000 From: Hassan Zubairi Subject: Birthsigns Jamie Zubairi (JamieJake) is a Leo like Kakki and Ashara!!! Much Joni JamieJake ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:14:59 -0500 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Joni's art (long) - ---------- > From: DSK11 > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Joni's art (long) > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 4:43 AM > > Seems that discussion of Joni's art is winding down, but as an artist I > wanted to get my comments in now rather than wait for the subject to > return. I can appreciate that some listers have an unbounded love of > everything Joni creates. I warn everyone, though, that my thoughts > generally range from not impressed to downright negative, so whoever > gets offended, just let me know; I'll be here. > > > I apologize for being so pedantic, but I wanted to make myself clear > here since I'm being so unappreciative of Joni's paintings. > > > So, bottom line, Joni can paint exactly what she wants. I hope she has > decades ahead of her in which to find her honest "voice" as a painter > and not just continue to put it all in a pot and think something > meaningful is going to come out. The technical ability that she seems to > be concentrating on now is the easy part. > > Debra Shea Well put my dear! That is also what I tried to get across in the discussions. I'm just a little more paranoid about the senitivity and protectiveness of Joni Fans! I didn't want to be hung out to dry! I too feel that she has not found her "voice" in her artwork. For someone who can provoke so much emotion from her music, I expect nothing less from her art! Thanks for your comments, Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:43:41 EST From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Re: the human condition In a message dated 98-10-25 18:20:05 EST, you write: << I'm not so much a lyrics guy, but my impression is that Blue expresses emotions: I'm sad, I'm happy, this relationship is going well/badly, and Hejira goes one step further in saying, what does this emotion tell me about the world, or how can I bring the experience I have gained from "guru books" to bear on the situation. In other words putting the emotion in a greater context. >> i think you have a fine sense of the lyric. one greater context joni has grasped is seen in black crow. look at vincent's wheat fields and see the balck crow in the blue sky and think of joni singing...im a black crow in a blue sky. she's moving past her own recognition of the world and seeing someone else's as confirming to her own. in one of vincent's letters to his brother theo, he wrote,,'i hope to get to the point with my painting that people say of me that man feels deeply.' and i think joni would be comfortable saying the same thing about hejira. the listener knows that woman feels deeply.pj ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:53:54 -0500 From: heather Subject: Re: (NJC) Taurus trouble At 11:55 AM 10/24/98 EDT, you wrote: > >Well!!!! I never!!!! I will just have to take the bull by the horns, and ask >you to stop this bulloney, or risk being kicked out of the bull ring!! >Imagine, trying to bully us into bulleving that you can bulldog us around! I'm >too bullheaded to take this bulls*%t. So, unless you want a bullfight, >consider this a bulletin, Mark, to get back to your bullion, and take a walk >among the bullfrogs and the bullfinches!! > >thisisajoke(justincaseyoudidntlareadyknow)thisisajoke Hmmmmm .. is this full of bull or what!? ;-D Very good Ashara! ------------------------------ Date: 26 Oct 98 09:33:32 EST From: Kai Wong Subject: DJRD - Anyone has NYC tickets? - DJRD OK, this is it. I am going to postpone my trip to Asia so I can hear Joni sing DJRD. I never thought this would happen in my lifetime. Anyone has a NYC ticket (1 or 2) to sell or knows where I can get some? Please email privately, thanks. Kai np: DJRD Kai ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:45:16 -0500 From: "742 - Ainsworth, Cheryl A" Subject: Top albums/Astro sign I am a Gemini of course (6/12)! I only have 4 cd's. I know, I know. I feel the shame. I used to own 3 others but they have left for another home(don't remember what happened to them) 4. TTT 3. Blue 2. Court and Spark 1. Miles of Aisles *The missing ones were Clouds, Ladies of the Canyon, and Hissing of summer lawns. not many people talk about MOA, but I love her voice on the first 2 tracks that I love singing to them. Hence my 10 yr old goes to school singing "You turn me on, I'm a radio..........." Then has the gall to tell me she wishes I would quit playing so much so she can remember those nsync or bsb song's she loves. Cheryl Ainsworth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 14:45:10 -0000 From: "philip" Subject: Re: fav. albums ranking David, after reading you note I think I answered the poll incorrectly. I gave my favourites (Roses and Chalkmark) but if I was picking her best work it might be Turbulent Indigo, Don Juan, Hejira Although Roses is my favourite, I haven't listened to it for years. Philip - - probably not making sense ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:53:47 -0500 From: jw1327 Subject: Joni's Sad Slide, Pt. 2 Danny wrote: > "...it's got a good beat, and you can dance to it." -- If I am not mistaken, > that was mis-attributed. Wasn't it Amber Van Tussle who first uttered those > immortal words to the inimitable Ms. Harry? Right you are, Dan! Just went to a John Waters retrospective yesterday at the Museum of the Moving Image in Queens, NY- Mr. Waters himself was there and spoke most eloquently about his films and their relationship to American culture- and the first film shown was "Hairspray"!!! And, yes, as soon as Amber uttered those immortal words I thought to myself- "Oh shit! I've done it again! Another mis-attributed quote!" Gee, with my track record maybe I could get a job as a New York Times (or Washington Post) reporter! Also, I agree with your remarks about Sheryl Crow- perhaps there IS more depth there than I am willing to admit. I don't think it's sensible to advocate minimizing and dismissing OTHER artists and giving that attention to Joni- seems like that's what's been happening to her for a very long time. Isn't there room for everyone? I do maintain, however, that when certain artisis (like Ms. Crow and others) have more than one video in strong rotation on VH1 and artists like Joni can't even get one of hers shown with any real degree of regularity (and not once a day at 4:00 AM), something is wrong. BTW- IS there a video, and not just the PPV special? And if not, why not? Bla Bla Bla. Harumph Harumph Harumph! James, the Conspiracy Chronicler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:02:40 -0500 From: jw1327 Subject: Aber Von Tussle (NJC) > In a message dated 10/24/98 8:02:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Tleetie@aol.com > writes: > > << > "...it's got a good beat, and you can dance to it." -- If I am not mistaken, > that was misattributed. Wasn't it Amber Van Tussle who first uttered those > immortal words to the inimitable Ms. Harry? >> > > No, that would be a tired, cliched phrase from the old American Bandstand show > starring Dick Clark. > Paul I > Paul: ...AND it is a phrase uttered by Amber Von Tussle, to her mother Velma Von Tussle (played by Debbie Harry) in John Water's superb 1988 film "Hairspray". Velma Von Tussle is berating her daughter for chosing a song by a black group to leade a dance with on a locan Baltimore teen show in 1962 (The song was "Shake a Tailfeather", which Velma refers to as "colored music")- A brilliant film. And yes, in response to her mother's scolding Amber petulantly replies; "Oh mother! It's got a good beat and you can dance to it!" Which, as we know, was also heard to be said on the old American BAndstand show, back before the Beatles ruined American popular music! (Mr. Waters' opinion)- JAMES, THE C.C. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:01:24 +0100 From: "morten feiring" Subject: Ways to handle the JMDL information flow. Hi all ! I'm still counting myself a newcomer to JMDL. From knowing little about Joni except the new CD every third year or so, the amount of information available turned upside down after discovering JMHP and JMDL. I must admit having some trouble adjusting to this great new situation. All these posts on JMDL digest, threads you might want to follow, comments from somebody about something, that you might like to respond to, and so on. You very much want to spend more time on this, but you don't seem to find the time to do it! Then there's the language "barrier" of course: Things you want to discuss with someone, that's easy in your head thinking norwegian, but gets more difficult - and time-demanding (is that the right word?!)when trying to write it down in english. This is perhaps a stupid question, but here goes: Does anyone have a piece or two of good advice on how to handle all this information in an effective and rational way? Of course there's the NJC and the self-discipline way, but still.... Perhaps the veterans on the list have some useful clues on how to solve such a "problem"! Morten ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:05:28 -0800 From: MTDS Subject: Re: Top albums/Astro sign Virgo (9/10) Her best work, IMHO Don Juan's Reckless Daughter For The Roses Hissing of Summer Lawns Court & Spark Blue Wild Things Run Fast Michelle NP; "Ladies Man", Wild Things Run Fast =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= SunDown Lady's Ilse of Tranquility More Funk in the Cruise Lounge http://www.sundownlady.com/index1.html =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:39:08 +0100 From: "Juerg Loeffler" Subject: Re: Juerg and his TTT evaluation Hello Danny, For some reason the following message, which I already sent twice yesterday, doesn't seem to make it through. I always get it back marked as "Bounced Message" - whatever that is. I give it another try: >No drums, yet more groove than any Puff Daddy track. Maybe this is one of Joni's secrets: to communicate the unspeakable by just giving a slight idea of it and leaves the real execution to the creativity of the listener. The core of what she wants to express is mostly hidden underneath the surface and has to be discovered first and filled with fantasy and imagination or else nothing happens. Play your favorite Joni tunes to friends that are not familiar with Joni and watch their reaction. They find it nice, maybe, but it's almost impossible for them to catch the deeper dimensions at first listening. I found her best songs rather boring the first times I I listened to it. - - Juerg - >PS: Wenn du auch ein Bißchen ueber Joni auf Deutsch >diskutieren moechtest, leg' los! Bin zur Zeit in Wien >(sowie m.russell)! Da machen wir uns aber auch nicht gerade beliebt hier, oder? 99,6% der Leser verstehen nur Bahnhof. Für mich ist das Schreiben in englisch eine gute Übung. Aber ich merke schon, je differenzierter die Materie, desto grösser das Handycap in einer Fremdsprache zu schreiben. Kommen die Umlaute bei Dir sauber an? Blödeldüdeldädel? Ciao Danny - und danke für Deinen Input! - - Jürg - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:55:17 -0600 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Joni in Chicago Ok, I saw Joni in LA in May and I thought she was great but . . . she nothing then compared to her performance in Chicago last night. Maybe it was becuz I was in the 11th row and could see her expressions. But I don't think so. She was transcendent. I cried twice. Once, during Hejira--just the lines "a defector from the petty wars that shell-shock love away" should give her genius status--and once during Amelia--when I went home and listened to the studio version, I knew that her live version is amazingly superior--when she sings the line "I crash into his arms, Amelia, it was just a false alarm", I can see/hear her heart breaking and mine broke with her. She was utterly amazing. I *loved* that she began alone for a couple of songs. I *loved* that she got rid of her guitar for the last two songs (before encore) and got down with her bad self and sang Trouble Man and Comes Love (is this the name). The audience was totally with her and she knew it. She seemed very, very pleased with the reception. All my friends who are not huge JM fans thought she was amazing. Because she was. I am so happy and jealous of all of you who will see her soon. I was actually thinking about flying somewhere else to see her becuz she was so damn good. I will probably write more later. And what a surprise to hear Free Man in Paris! Totally unexpected. I thought I would hear the same set that I heard in LA. I was hoping that she would have followed Free Man with TTT but alas . . . Howard M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:17:42 +0000 From: BarBearUh Subject: Re: NY Times letters Terry wrote: > > but I would also hope that I'd > be remembered as the one that wiped their little bottoms every day as babies > and comforted them through their nightmares. > > I think that Joni *should* have been described as Kilauren's biomom. i agree with Terry here. as an adopted kid, i can tell you i am bothered by joni everytime the subject comes up. > Julie wrote: > Kakki, I had the same reaction! Why would the adoption theme > dominate 2 of the four letters about Joni Mitchell? i didn't think any of the letters were stupid. the one about the reality of business, well you already know where i stand there - i don't like it but i think that's the way it is. no one's singling joni out to punish her or anything. as far as the adoption thing is concerned, this also makes perfect sense to me. what makes someone write a letter to the editor? i think 9x out of 10 it's because something in an article disturbs them enough to feel that they have to right an injustice. adoption is a very touchy issue, and anyone that has direct experience with it is going to react to things surrounding the issue that don't seem right. i'd bet that most of the letters they got had to do with that subject, because why else would you write? you'd most likely be a) offended by the NY Times treatment of joni or b) offended by something joni said. to an adoptive parent, i guarantee you the casual assumption of joni as mother and grandmother is offensive, and the most likely thing in the article to ruffle some feathers. barbara np: red hot & rhapsody ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 10:04:58 -0600 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Joni in Chicago and Minneapolis Did she *really* sing Don Juan's Reckless Daughter in MN? she didn't in Chicago! And did she sing *Coyote*--for real, are you sure it was Coyote--I would have fainted if she had sung Coyote in Chi but she didn't. The rest of the setlist was the same but these two songs were not sung in Chi. Neither was Moon at the Window--which she started but quit--I think there was a tuning mistake and she said forget it and took off the guitar and did Trouble Man. She was in excellent, excellent humor. - -- Howard M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:13:16 -0500 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Joni in Chicago Howard M wrote: <<>> Even though I don't like the song, I would love to hear her follow "Free Man in Paris" with "Lead Balloon." Before, and after. LOL! - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:22:29 -0500 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: Joni in Chicago (Long Review of Concert) Marsha wrote: > >Her look: A rust colored long silk skirt and matching >tunic top, loose without belt nor cinching. It was a >shade darker than her Parker Fly guitar >...and she had on her two rings >of her left hand. That gemstone is still on her left ring >finger, and a larger flat ring was on her middle finger. >Her nails were silvery, the longer lengths being on her >right hand... >And to finish off the ensemble, I think she wore a >wonder bra... ;-) I guess you got those binoculars. >The setlist deviated a bit from Minneapolis, if >Bard was telling the truth...no Don Juan's Reckless >Daughter tonight...shucks! a big boo hoo >And she flubbed the third line of Moon at the Window, a small boo-boo. Thanks for the report. Enjoy the show Indianapolis; POC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:53:20 -0000 From: "philip" Subject: Joni heard on BBC Radio 1 - shock It's official. Joni Mitchell is cool and hip again. Giles Peterson played Trouble Man on his show last week. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:55:49 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Zodiac Poll (so far) NJC From: kbarnicle@ma01.ensr.com Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:11:31 EST Here are the results of the poll so far. Thanks to Lori for compiling most of this list. An interesting note, I saw a comment somewhere that the Book of Job speaks more about that zodiac signs than any other book in the bible. Interesting, hmm. Please see if your name is on the list or if your name appears twice. If not, please let me know. Leo and Cancer have the highest, Aries and Pisces have the least. What does this all mean? ARIES 6 TAURUS 6 GEMINI 9 CANCER 10 LEO 12 VIRGO 8 LIBRA 8 SCORPIO 6 SAGITTARIUS 9 CAPRICORN 7 AQUARIUS 7 PISCES 4 ARIES 1. Denise (Denisongs) 2. Michael Paz 3. Evian 4. Morten 5. Sue Cameron (Suze) 6. La Susana TAURUS 1. Todd 2. Mark in Seattle 3. Juerg Loeffler 4. Maurice 5. Jussi 6. John Lind (hairfarmer) GEMINI 1. Phyliss Ward 2. Bob (Dylan) 3. Terry 4. Kenny G 5. Myrtle Anderson 6. Paul I (IVPAUL) 7. Patrick (trxschwa) 8. Jason 9. Danny CANCER 1. Lori in San Antonio 2. doug (wolfebite) 3. Marilyn 4. Leslie Mixon 5. WirlyPearl 6. pmeyer 7. Jen (Spring) 8. Craig (Happy The Man) 9. M&C Urbanski 10. Helen Gill LEO 1. Kakki 2. Ashara 3. Steve Dulson 4. KerriLynn 5. pj 6. Paul, S.Bethlehem, NY 7. amy 8. Neil in Seattle 9. Les 10. PmcFad 11. Some Millers 12. Debra Shea VIRGO 1. Laura O. Man 2. Heather 3. mariana 4. Marian, Vienna 5. Michael, Australia 6. Maian Rulewski 7. Jim G. 8. Rob Jordan LIBRA 1. Michael Y. 2. E.T. (Eric) 3. Chili 4. Bob M in SC 5. roberto 6. MDESTE?? 7. Char in Spudland 8. Gail Rowett SCORPIO 1. Duane 2. Joni 3. Julius 4. Julie Z. W. 5. Catherine T. 6. David MAscah SAGITTARIUS 1. Katie from the Cape 2. Brett Code 3. Colin 4. Ken Slarty 5. Jill Linn 6. Ric (rikielee) 7. Brian Gross 8. Dan Sloan 9. Jim L'homme_ CAPRICORN 1. Mary Grace 2. Bob The Kingpin 3. Barbearuh 4. Alex N. 5. Claud SansSoucie 6. gdave 7. Wallykai AQUARIUS 1. Wally Breese 2. Jill Tamada 3. Marsha 4. Sue(mac) 5. Anne Madden 6. Wiifred 7. SO Sharon PISCES 1. Mark Domyancich 2. Ginny 3. Jan in Hoboken 4. Ruben Bell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:04:05 EST From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Chicago Tribune review Rock review, Joni Mitchell at United Center By Greg Kot Tribune Rock Critic Joni Mitchell had a remarkable night Sunday at the United Center. Here was an artist who actually made the joint's turgid acoustics work in her favor. Instead of blasting her music into the rafters, she let it float. She didn't so much raise the roof as make it evaporate, replaced by the incense of her fractured jazz chords and the smoke of her mahogany alto. Heady stuff. Great stuff. Enough to make another solid set of music by Bob Dylan seem almost perfunctory. Dylan's on a roll, no doubt. He's coming off a great album, ``Time Out of Mind,'' and he has worked his road band into a well-oiled machine, so much so that they occasionally seem to be coasting--perhaps because Dylan has been working variations on the same set list for the better part of a year. There's no denying that the string-band version of ``Tangled Up in Blue'' is a keeper and that the ZZ Top spin applied to ``Highway 61 Revisited'' has been monumental on occasion (though not on this night). But Dylan needs to dig into some other crevices of his songbook to surprise us again, just as he did a year ago when the forgettable ``Silvio'' became a surprise show-stopper. ``Silvio,'' which rang out again Sunday, is emblematic of the Dylan band's recent approach; the tossed off lyrics are just an excuse for the quintet to dig into the all-mighty groove. Dressed in black to complement his band of card sharps in their suits and bowler hats, Dylan was an animated, almost playful presence as he duck-walked in place or splayed his legs, sometimes wheeling his guitar from side to side. His strange charisma cued the band, as he crooked a shoulder or dipped at the waist to signal a new curve in an arrangement, and he was feeling so spry he hogged most of the solos, all but reducing Larry Campbell's role to tending the rhythm. Dylan was at his best on ``Just Like a Woman,'' opening with an extended harp solo and finishing it with a guitar jam. Dylan especially dug into the staccato, counter-punching rhythms of ``Cold Irons Bound'' and buried himself in the ominous ``Love Sick,'' but his ``Rainy Day Women #12 and 35'' had a tossed-off air. There was nothing perfunctory about Mitchell's set. She framed it with solo electric versions of ``Big Yellow Taxi'' and ``Woodstock'' that were far more moodily introspective than the originals, in keeping with the tone of the evening. With Larry Klein sliding around the rhythm on bass, and Brian Blade dancing with brushes on the trap kit, Mitchell's exquisite guitar voicings guided her band. The quintet conjured lush tones at even the quietest volumes, with Greg Liesz's pedal steel drifting like a desert tumbleweed on Mitchell's luminous ``Amelia.'' ``Dreams, Amelia, dreams and false alarms,'' Mitchell sang, in what could have been a summation of a performance in which introspection gave way to a sense of anxiety and finally freedom. There was a freedom of sorts when Mitchell finally set aside her guitar to perform Marvin Gaye's ``Trouble Man'' and an obscure Billie Holiday ballad. She worked the contours of these songs, and in her lush, cool manner, sent them spiraling languidly into the subconscious night. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:58:00 -0800 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: NY Times letters Barbearuh wrote: >> I think that Joni *should* have been described as Kilauren's biomom. >i agree with Terry here. as an adopted kid, i can tell you i am bothered >by joni everytime the subject comes up. Reading the article again, she was referred to twice as the birth mother. What did Joni say in the article that bothers people? Was it Joni, or that the author mentioned her daughter and grandson and Joni responded to him about them without giving more credit to the adoptive parents? >i didn't think any of the letters were stupid. the one about the reality of >business, well you already know where i stand there - i don't like it but i >think that's the way it is. no one's singling joni out to punish her or >anything. The two letters I reacted to both were snide and insulting to her and that sure appeared to be the writers' intent. Her persona is "reprehensible" - she's taking "credit" as Kilauren's parent - she abandoned her child to go off and write crappy songs like Big Yellow Taxi, etc. They mischaracterized what was said in the article, made false assumptions and false conclusions. That, to me, is stupid. I did read them as singling Joni out because she is the focus of their comments, not the writer of the article. > to an adoptive parent, i guarantee you the casual assumption of joni as >mother and grandmother is offensive, and the most likely thing in the >article to ruffle some feathers. Who made the casual assumption in the article? The writer or Joni? Who should be criticized for that casual assumption? What should Joni do in the future to show more sensitivity toward the issue? Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #440 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?