From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #438 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, October 25 1998 Volume 03 : Number 438 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Atlanta@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load (NJC) -Reply [DSK11 ] Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load (NJC) ["Ken (Slarty)" ] New Poll to Lighten the Load (NJC) [Dmascall@aol.com] A week at work - [Dmascall@aol.com] Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load [Jlgaertner@aol.com] What Joni Thinks of Sheryl Crow? [Anne Madden ] New Poll To Lighten The Load (NJC) [Anne Madden ] Julie's letter to NJ Times [Anne Madden ] Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load NJC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load NJC [catman ] Vonnegut (SJC) [Alan ] Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load [Bounced Message ] Re: Amelia [Bounced Message ] Re: Juerg and his TTT evaluation [Bounced Message ] Ass-trology [Bounced Message ] Re: TTT promotion [BarBearUh ] Inyourearluv (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: Juerg and his TTT evaluation [Bounced Message ] Re: Joni Mitchell List (SJC) ["Juerg Loeffler" ] Re: Star Sign (NJC) ["Reuben P Bell" ] Re: Julie's letter to the NYT ["Patricia O'Connor" ] Plug Of The Week #43 ["Peter Holmstedt" ] Re: the human condition [Rob Jordan ] Re: RS album guide (SJC) [Rob Jordan ] Re: Ass-trology (NJC) ["Deb Messling" ] Halloween help (absolutely NJC) ["Deb Messling" ] RE: Halloween help (absolutely NJC) ["John T. Folden" ] Re: the human condition [catman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 04:28:48 -0400 From: DSK11 Subject: Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load (NJC) -Reply PMcfad@aol.com wrote: > > im a leo but i have no idea what that means other than i was born in august. > any one give me the psycho profile of a leo? Sure. Leos are generous, warm-hearted, loyal, extravagant (with expensive tastes even when poor), loving, honest, charismatic, natural leaders (being the king/queen of the jungle, after all), and usually have lots of hair. Debra Shea, a Leo (did I say Leos are also objective and unbiased?) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 04:49:45 EST From: Tleetie@aol.com Subject: Star Sign (NJC) This will definitely be an interesting one: GEMINI (Taurus-rising, Aries- moon) Love, Danny np: Noa (her first) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 05:08:47 EST From: Tleetie@aol.com Subject: Juerg and his TTT evaluation Hey, I thought you were absolutely right on about the song evaluations. I love the way you commented on "No doubt"... The same kind of thrill runs through me on "You made it all seem so tawdry and cheap" in 'Face Lift'. She has this unbelievable way of packing so much emotion into what, on the surface, could seem like nothing. It is the same with her sense of rhythm: In 'Face Lift', there is no percussion, per se; yet in the guitar work on "Shacked up downtown, making love without a license/Same old sacred cow...", you just have to move. It is unbelievably percussive. For those of you who have mentioned that you would like to improve your senses of rhythm, listen to the jamming quality of this track. No drums, yet more groove than any Puff Daddy track. Danny PS: Wenn du auch ein Bißchen ueber Joni auf Deutsch diskutieren moechtest, leg' los! Bin zur Zeit in Wien (sowie m.russell)! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 02:42:59 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: Julie's letter to the NYTimes At 01:17 AM 10/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >What an absolutely brilliant letter Julie! I can't imagine how they could >have edited one word and will rush out tomorrow morning to buy it. I am so >proud of you! I have no doubt that Joni will read it and deeply appreciate >it. Thank you for stating so eloquently what bothered so many of us about >that snide article. It will hopefully generate a lot more interest in TTT. >E.T. Thank you Eric and eveyone else who thanked me privately and on the list. I can't believe it got in, and that it was the only supportive letter out of 4! If anyone is interested in what the other letters said, let me know. For those other jmdlers who submitted letters to the editor,(leters--- which were much better written than mine,)----I think it helped that I emailed it early, either the Monday or Tuesday after Joni's article was published. -JulieZW, feeling very "OH MY GOD-ish" today ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:02:42 -0500 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load (NJC) I am pretty cynical but in this case I think skeptic is a better word. Seeing that your address is "bokonon" I expect that you're another Vonnegut fan. I'm rereading the Sirens Of Titan for about the umpteenth time. One of my favorites. Rented a tent a tent a tent rented a tent a tent a tent rented a tent rented a tent rented a tent a tent. (snare drum on mars) Alan wrote: > Thanks Ken... (LOL) > Glad to see I'm not the only cynic in the bunch. > I think my sign is "Yield" > > By the way, thinking about stars (astronomy, not astrology), I read > recently that according to the best current measurements, our Milky Way > galaxy is moving at 1.3 MILLION MILES AN HOUR in the direction of the > constellation Hydra. > And who says there is no such thing as progress. Sorry can't help myself! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:18:01 EST From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: New Poll to Lighten the Load (NJC) I'm no great believer in astrology - but for statistical purposes Scorpio (28/10/59) David Mascall (hopefully not too crabby) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:17:59 EST From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: A week at work - Just started to catch up on a week's worth of digests. Sorry to have missed the favourite album poll - I'd have gone for HOSL - because absolutely everything hangs together on it to make much much more than the sum of the parts. From the other extreme Blue is a big favourite for the emotional content - and for the piano playing. Simple - yes ; predictable - maybe; right for the material - absolutely. David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:16:08 EST From: Jlgaertner@aol.com Subject: Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load Geez, this is a tough one (since my old handle was AZVIRGO), but here goes: Jim G. Virgo (also perfectionist and stealth comedian) So who is this Van Gogh person everyone keeps talking about? Is he that drummer with one arm? Love his work... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:30:39 -0800 From: Anne Madden Subject: What Joni Thinks of Sheryl Crow? Danny wrote: << Also, I held my tongue the first time someone mentioned that they had wasted two hours of their life when they saw Sheryl Crow play live. Now, I cannot vouch for how she plays live (though she does say that playing live is her "main gig"), but on cd, I find her music driven, personal, musically refined (though there is much road to travel, and comparisons to Joni leave her, of course, wanting). I just think we should be grateful to the media when they support music with integrity. I'd love to hear though why people find her so revolting. I would at least think that those of us who DO like 'Lead Balloon' would dig a lot of Sheryl's stuff. Do any of us know Joni's opinion about Sheryl's work? Just curious? I would at least think that Joni would support the idea of Ms. Crow producing her own albums; and, of course, they are (as we ALL are) sharing in the ravages of love...>> I think Sheryl Crow is great. She is very versatile and can sing anything. She doesn't have the perfect voice as there is a bit of roughness to it however she can sing rock, country, blues, folk. She writes, produces, is a great musician (keyboards, piano, accordian, guitar, etc) and I think she has paid her dues! I remember reading somewhere that Joni had critized her. Then later Joni was singing her praises. Wasn't Joni in attendance at a show where Sheryl sang one of Joni's songs. Anyway, I don't really care what Joni thinks of her. I think there are a lot of talented younger artists out there who deserve recognition! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:38:18 -0800 From: Anne Madden Subject: New Poll To Lighten The Load (NJC) Aquarius - Jan. 24 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:39:13 -0800 From: Anne Madden Subject: Julie's letter to NJ Times Great letter Julie! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:13:52 EST From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load NJC In a message dated 10/25/98 10:19:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, Jlgaertner@aol.com writes: << So who is this Van Gogh person everyone keeps talking about? Is he that drummer with one arm? Love his work... >> No, Vincent Van Go is the former left fielder of the St. Louis Cardinals who was a great basestealer, but otherwise a fairly average player. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 16:30:47 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load NJC I saw on the TV the other day something about some group of soldiers who won some war somwhere. The city was going nuts on their return. They called them Yankees I think. I thought the Civil war finished a long time ago? Or is it that they still celebrate it? IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/25/98 10:19:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, > Jlgaertner@aol.com writes: > > << So who is this Van Gogh person everyone keeps talking about? Is he that > drummer with one arm? Love his work... > >> > No, Vincent Van Go is the former left fielder of the St. Louis Cardinals who > was a great basestealer, but otherwise a fairly average player. - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 08:56:25 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Gross Subject: Herbie Hancock-Gershwin's World (NJC) I just got my copy of this cd in the mail from Music Blvd. Those coupons are *great* Kenny, Laura and whoever else has been sending them to the List, please keep it up !! In the credits, the producers give "Special thanks to Chuck Mitchell, ..." Is this just a co-inky-dink, or has the our Joan's first husband transformed himself from a folkie (too) ?? My best to you, Brian np: The Man I Love === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:20:58 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: New Poll to Lighten the Load (NJC) I'll weigh in as a Taurus and Sagitarius...... the former is my birth sign in the Western method, the latter by the East Indian method. The latter system takes into account the fact that the earth has *moved* in its relationship with the stars since the western system was set up. Some will, therefore, argue it is more accurate..... but those battles and reconciliations are meant for another list! Don ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:04:14 -0600 From: Alan Subject: Vonnegut (SJC) Ken, Okay, I guess "cynic" has a pretty negative connotation to most people (more like, "asshole who hates everything"); the full definition really isn't all that bad. I think the word is making a respectable comeback. Re. Vonnegut and "bokonon": right you are, and what a coincidence, I just started rereading Bluebeard. I think Cats Cradle remains my favorite. I wanted to return your quote with Bokonon's calypso about mud.. it went something like, "God made Man from mud... we muddily do what we muddily must..." But alas, my copy of Cats Cradle moved to L.A. with the friend I loaned it too. I hope he enjoyed it as much as I did; but, more likely, it only confirmed his suspicion that I'm some kind of nut case. I remember, when this same friend was looking through my CD collection and came upon all the Joni Mitchell, he looked at me and said, "the only people I've ever know who liked J.M. were women or gay men." I laughed and said, "well, I'm neither of those, but sometimes I think I might me a lesbian trapped in a man's body." Not original, but a good laugh, and an interesting thought. Makes the whole "compatible relationship" business rather problematic. Anyway, I'll have to settle with this quote from Bluebeard: "And what is literature, Rabo," he said, "but an insider's newsletter about affairs relating to molecules, of no importance to anything in the Universe but a few other molecules who have the disease called 'thought.' " Alan P.S. Q. Why did the amoebae flunk the math test? A. Because it multiplied by dividing! NP: Clouds, "That song about the Midway" - beautiful Ken (Slarty) wrote: > I am pretty cynical but in this case I think skeptic is a better word. > > Seeing that your address is "bokonon" I expect that you're another > Vonnegut > fan. > I'm rereading the Sirens Of Titan for about the umpteenth time. One > of my > favorites. > Rented a tent > a tent a tent > rented a tent > a tent a tent > rented a tent > rented a tent > rented a tent a tent. > (snare drum on mars) > > Alan wrote: > > > Thanks Ken... (LOL) > > Glad to see I'm not the only cynic in the bunch. > > I think my sign is "Yield" > > > > By the way, thinking about stars (astronomy, not astrology), I read > > recently that according to the best current measurements, our Milky > Way > > galaxy is moving at 1.3 MILLION MILES AN HOUR in the direction of > the > > constellation Hydra. > > > > And who says there is no such thing as progress. > Sorry can't help myself! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:11:45 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: New Poll to Lighten the Load Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:32:23 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" A genuine Aquarius right here! (Feb. 10) Winfried, who'd also like to say welcome to all the recent newbies and de-lurkers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:12:09 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Amelia Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:17:48 +0100 From: "Winfried Hühn" Morten wrote: > these lines > that, to me, in a magical mysterious way, stands out as one of the truly great magic moments in > Joni's work: > "I pulled into the Cactus Tree Motel > to shower off the dust > And I slept on the strange pillows of my wanderlust" > My favorite lines in "Amelia", if it is admissible at all to divide this entirely wonderful song into pieces, are the beginning ones: I was driving across the burning desert When I spotted six jet planes Leaving six white vapor trails across the bleak terrain It was the hexagram of the heavens It was the strings of my guitar Amelia, it was just a false alarm The poetry, the imagery, the way Joni introduces the theme of the song, connecting it with the general topic of the entire album -- pure artistry! Winfried, who loves the desert and sees it appear before his closed eyes when listening to this song ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:12:51 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Juerg and his TTT evaluation From: "Juerg Loeffler" Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 14:12:38 +0100 >No drums, yet more groove than any Puff Daddy track. Maybe this is one of Joni's secrets: to communicate the un.speakable by just giving a slight idea of it and leaves the real execution to the creativity of the listener. The core of what she wants to express is mostly hidden underneath the surface and has to be discovered first and filled with fantasy and imagination or else nothing happens. Play your favorite Joni tunes to friends that are not familiar with Joni and watch their reaction. They find it nice, maybe, but it's almost impossible to catch the deeper dimensions at first listening. I found her best songs rather boring the first times I listened to it. - - Juerg - >PS: Wenn du auch ein Bißchen ueber Joni auf Deutsch diskutieren moechtest, >leg' los! Bin zur Zeit in Wien (sowie m.russell)! Da machen wir uns aber auch nicht gerade beliebt hier, oder? 99,6% der Leser verstehen nur Bahnhof. Für mich ist das Schreiben in englisch eine gute Übung. Aber ich merke schon, je differenzierter die Materie, desto grösser das Handycap in einer Fremdsprache schreiben zu müssen. Kommen die Umlaute bei Dir sauber an? Blödeldüdeldädel? Ciao Danny - und danke für Deinen Input! - - Jürg - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:14:17 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Ass-trology From: "Jim L'Hommedieu]" Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:20:09 -0500 Ass-trology is bunk but I'll play anyway. Born November 25, I'm a Saggittarian with the sun on the horizon and the moon at the window. Did I mention that astrology is bunk? Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 13:28:14 +0000 From: BarBearUh Subject: Re: TTT promotion this is extremely LONG. just a warning - if you're not interested in the business of selling records, scroll down a lot or delete. John T. Folden wrote: > > I think both of these are mistakes, then. Both of these kind of > "Preach to the choir". Non-fans will not purchase tickets to see > Joni we're talking about the timing of the album release. the events in and of themselves are not the same idea. the tour is about promoting records, not making money off concert tickets. the concert will attract fans who may not have bought a joni album in decades. they will buy t-shirts (helps pay for the tour AND is free advertising), possibly find out about the new album, want to buy it after the show whether they knew about it or not, and generally be reminded of the fact that joni is alive and well and still producing music. [oh, my gawd, as julie would say, i just had a huge deja vu, which i think was a pre-ja vu - i remember over a year ago posting about the tour/promotion relationship - i had a deja vu then that wasn't physically possible...ah i digress]. there also might be some new fans found in dylan's attendance. outside of the direct impact of the concert goers, there will be previews and/or reviews in almost every local newspaper that has the fortune of being in a place that's on the itenerary of the tour, which will of course mention the new album and the performances of the new songs. > and non-fans will not pay $20 for the PPV concert. If it was > intended as a marketing tool, it should have been GIVEN to any > station that would play it. the PPV is really an oddity. first of all, it was not intended as a promotion tool. it is not funded by reprise, but by eagle rock, the production company that made it (i may be wrong, but from what we've heard about, it seems this is the deal). they are interested in making their money back from the production, not giving away a product that will regenerate that investment only by revenues from PPV box office, network/cable airing rights and video rentals/sales. reprise is only taking advantage of the timing - there might be a little advertising on USSB/Viewer's Choice's nickel, perhaps an odd preview/review here and there, and some old fans will see it (if anybody bothers to carry it) and again, all the trickle down effect stuff, this time possibly including some newbies who would never plunk down the $40-70 to see the concert but who are forced to watch it because their obsessed friends lock them in their living rooms with gags on (some present company included i'm sure). James the Conspiracy Chronicler wrote: > Now I don't profess to know how these things work, but WHY NOT PBS > instead of PPV??? James Taylor did an extremely successfyl PBS special > a while back (actually, several of them over the years)> > Also, why not this "Live by Request" thing that A&E does??? (OK OK it's > cable, but at least it wouldn't cost you 20 bucks!) PBS (or A&E) would probably pay somewhere between $15 & 60K to air this. let's say PPV only finds 20k viewers - that equals a $400k in box office receipts (eagle rock will probably get 200 of that). eagle rock will still be able to rent the show to PBS to air (i bet this will happen 6-12mos. down the road) and still get that extra $ from PBS. this often happens with PPV specials (see dylan's 30th anniversary concert). it's not about what it costs us, it's about how to make at least the investment back, and hopefully a profit. back to John: > Actually, if they were smart they would use a section of the PPV > concert as a video. It wouldn't cost them anything extra and if they > insist on charging at least it might have gotten a few people curious > about the concert. i agree, this is a good idea. but reprise doesn't own it, and they are in the best position to get it on music TV (if VH1 would even want to play it - they've got to sell advertising too). it also would not be totally free. yes, free of production costs, but not free of post-production and promotion costs. you've got to spend some money to convince VH1 to play it, to package it, to make airing masters, etc. and, live performances also generally don't make great music videos. eagle rock just wants to make some money on what they did, their concern is not about record sales. reprise is only taking advantage of the fact that the PPV may generate some sales, not what the PPV itself will pay (whatever licensing was involved is probably already paid to the label - if any at all, this might be pure ASCAP/BMI). > Here in Ohio I've seen NOTHING but a quarter page ad in Entertainment > Weekly. this is nothing to dismiss as insignificant. this is a national magazine with high distribution and a good slot on the grocery checkout magazine rack - very smart place to spend those ad dollars. i don't know what space costs, but i'd venture it's about $5-10k to place this ad, and if someone told me it was 5-10x that i wouldn't faint or even gasp. > The record stores around here (NRM, Camelot, Media Play, etc...) > have nothing highlighting the album. but a huge chain like borders has a further reach. rather than pay a grand here or there, they go for a big blanket - makes sense to me. not that you're talking about small chains or that i wouldn't want her placed there, too. it's just business - they do have to decide what the budget is for her release and plan accordingly. it'd be crazy for them to think they'd make sales of even 1M units, let alone 2 - the kind of numbers that would justify a display in every chain. they could put the thing in neon lights and i don't think she'd pull those numbers (at least domestically). they probably have formulas for this - like a store display = x% more in sales. so take madonna, who is guaranteed to sell 1M, and say a 10% increase in sales = 100k units. but take joni, who is a lower and slower seller (needs more than a month long display), and that display is now not cost effective. the extra 10% sales increase will only equal 30K more units sold at best. therefore, that display costs 70% more to put up. > I saw quite a bit for Chalkmark > and the Hits & Misses set. In fact, I noticed more for Chalkmark than > any album since.... you're right about chalkmark - i forgot about the advertising campaign for that. i think there may have been an ad in rolling stone, but i know there was not a display in the stores i was frequenting at the time. [another flashback - i was anxiously awaiting this release, bought it, so antsy to hear it that i drove a couple of blocks to an electronics store and pretended to be interested in buying a CD player so i could sample it and not wait til i got home to hear it]. hits & misses also got some cardboard and advertising, but not much in the way of press. i still think what reprise pulled off - NYTimes, USA Today, Rolling Stone articles, not just little ad blips - is far better than anything i've seen since 1983. this is very smart placement, very smart. better to pull the strings getting a two page spread in RS (with a defiant cigarette-puffing-in-your-face picture to boot) than paying out a bucket of bucks for a quarter page ad that few 20 year olds will notice. all these reviews are no accident either. yes, some will come purely out of a newspaper deciding to review it, but many of them come from reprise sending out promo copies and doing some schmoozing to get the press. > As far as the general public is concerned, it seems > as thought TTT doesn't even exist, IMHO. a) accept it - joni ain't the latest greatest. even REM and Pearl Jam (and even Madonna or Janet) don't generate the kind of excitement and anticipation that we used to expect of a new release. not that their huge fan bases aren't anxiously awaiting, but you don't have that 80s bruce line outside the record store for anything. b) there is no longer a general public where music is concerned. the market is much more fragmented - just look at the charts. you've got goth, tradrock, soundtracks, techno, rap, hiphop, country, R&B, pop - next week alanis will be the girlie act - all in the top 50. outside of a few maniacs like our wonderful michael y, there are very few people who have any idea who half the artists are on that chart. in spite of the fact that i buy a new release at least weekly, and at least skim RS & musician's every issue, i've never heard a song by most of the artists on there, and don't even recognize a lot of names. rolling stone doesn't even use their last page for just the billboard anymore - even the lists are divided - reader's list, rap list, singles list, rap singles list, video list, 10 years ago, indy stores list. you gotta scream so loud with so much cash behind you these days to get yourself noticed. the only way you're gonna get the general public is if you're monica lewinsky (not a route i'd like to see joni take). > If it had been released earlier she might have > had a better chance with all the talk about the reunion and her awards > still in the news. TTT was ready in the spring of '98, not '97, and i doubt most people remember who won the grammies this past year, let alone last. [is this right? - the album copyright is '94, released '95, recieved the '95 grammy in '96?] so do you hate the music business yet? do you hate the machine yet? perhaps our birthday card should say, "joni, why don't you go independent? we'd still buy your records!". i'm not debating john because i like the way this works - only because i think she did get a fair shake this time around, and i do think, given the way this crazy shit goes down, the release date was well timed (don't forget, we were also supposed to get the tribute released about now, and i'm sure reprise isn't happy that ain't happenin'). these decisions are made like most business decisions. an average of X units sold = a promotional budget of Y. how best to spend that budget - what's the demographic most likely to buy, and how can we get the word there? also, what john originally questioned was the postponing of the release. some listers complained about low stock on this record. now, if a store ordered low stock on this record and there were low sales, they would not bother ordering more. a concert inspires record buying. if joni didn't sell in the spring, there would be very little stock out there in the stores. so 6 months later, when everyone is hot to buy it after a show, there's nothing there to buy and no sales get made. with a tour going, the stores have (hopefully) at least some stock to support these buys (and well-managed stores will order extra when they see the concert ad & subsequent press in their local). when the record sells, the stores order more, so at the very least the things sit on the shelves and are there if some poor slob (ie a newly converted fan who has been at the mercy of some jmdler) wants it a few months later. so here we arrive at some serious bottom lines (and the point where i revert to my standard theme song). we are not just talking about some abstract music business geeks in tower office buildings. their decisions are based on the way the general public behaves and spends their dollars. the general public is made up of many many many individuals who have far too many very unimportant distractions (ok, so i want everyone to put art above all else, i admit it). "we" do not pay attention. "we" do not go crusing around in search of shiny little things on which to dive. "we" buy whatever f*%$'ing shiny thing is tossed in front of our beady little crow's eyes. "we" sit back and rack up our mutual fund pennies every time some huge corporation buys out another gigantic corporation (and curse me, i don't know what i can do about it without turning my life upside down other than try to buy as much independent product as i possibly can). this is just like some lister said about joni's line about "lawyers and loan sharks" missing the mark (sorry i can't credit you) - it's a pointing finger that takes no personal responsibility. it's not just the lawyers - it's all of us acting like victims, having to blame someone for everything, feeling like we need revenge & becoming litigious little nightmares on wheels. just like it's all of us buying whatever MTV throws up on the screen, or the tried and proven artist we are loyal to - not seeking out what might please us most. i'm not debating here because i think joni gets the kind of promotion she deserves. it would make a hell of a lot more sense to me if record labels were run by music lovers who have a knack for recognizing and nourishing talent (not by ex-CEOs of general electric or general motors who were paid millions to resign). it would make a hell of a lot more sense if a label was so proud to have a class act like joni mitchell that they didn't worry about her records making any money (if depeche mode makes money for us, we can stand to lose some money on joni); if they realized that over time, joni's catalogue will pay for itself because she is an artist with a long shelf life - she's still selling records she made 30 years ago. promoting her now and generating a bigger audience for her would only result in assuring and expanding the shelf life of her product. but make no mistake about it, this is ultimately driven by stock holders who want their stocks to make money, and they want to make it now. i just heard that a lot of the networks have been shutting down many of their foreign correspondent offices, and will be increasing this action. a deal is going down for the big three to start buying their international news stories from CNN (which is part of the gang of TNT, TBS, TMC, and a bunch of other stuff which used to be owned by ted turner but now belongs to viacom or TCI or some very huge media corporation). news has by and large been a losing proposition for the big 3, but it used to be ok. it was alright if the news lost money as long as the network made money. this is no longer acceptable - every show is now expected to be profitable. isn't this a bit frightening? that the news will all be coming from one source? remember 'citizen kane'? this is the same thing that's going on with the recording industry - it's no longer ok to make money as a label; there's such pressure for every product to make money. and a little money isn't good enough - multi-million sellers are the goal. it's no longer about building up a classy catalogue of talent. sadly enough, it's the same deal with publishing. it's more profitable to have 1 artist/author who can move a few million units than 10 artists/authors who make a small profit. 1 'titanic' is better than 10 'practical magic's, which is a sad thing 'cause i'd rather watch the latter any day. barbara np: smashing pumpkins, adore ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 13:51:54 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Inyourearluv (NJC) Colin wrote: "Well I misjudged again. And here I was thinking Kaaa was such a nice law abiding citizen and all the time she is nothing more than a common criminal-a sinner of some position no less. Why are you still on the streets? Thats the trouble with this world-no morals, all gone to pot, liberal weak minded yellow bellies. Disicipline! That is what we need. DISCIPLINE! What we need today is the fear of God back in our hearts(or at least certain punishment). You may scoff, young lady, but you will rue the day you broke my, I mean the, moral code. praise be! I will pray that your soul may be saved from eternal torment. a shocked former admirer" Kakki wrote: > Michael wrote Marsha wrote about someone on this list, I presume, getting > thrown, I mean, escorted out of a Dylan concert: > > >we have it on good authority...(right Ms. California girl? > >by the name of Kaaaaa.....but I ain't namin' names!!!)" > > and then Mr. Paz quickly conjectured: > > >PS Is Kaaaaa the same one that peeps over fences? > > Please check your facts again before you spread such inyourendo about > people. It was a Spanish, mock-adobe style WALL not a fence! > > Kaaaaaa Hey Colin- And further more (tongues wagging over fences and mock adobe style walls and big oceans as well) I have it on good authority that I certain Blonde Chick was seen in the company of Kaaaaa, though I'M not mentioning any names!!(right Maaaaa???) New Orleans is beautiful today, I'm headed outside. Not baaaaaaa, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 13:18:18 -0700 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Juerg and his TTT evaluation From: "Juerg Loeffler" Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 21:08:05 +0100 >No drums, yet more groove than any Puff Daddy track. Maybe this is one of Joni's secrets: to communicate the u.nspeakable by just giving a slight idea of it and leaving the real execution to the creativity of the listener. The core of what she wants to express is mostly hidden underneath the surface and has to be discovered first and filled with fantasy and imagination, or else nothing happens. Play your favorite Joni tunes to friends that are not familiar with Joni and watch their reaction. They find it nice, maybe, but it's almost impossible to catch the deeper dimensions at first listening. I found her best songs rather boring the first times I listened to it. - - Juerg - >PS: Wenn du auch ein Bißchen ueber Joni auf Deutsch diskutieren moechtest, >leg' los! Bin zur Zeit in Wien (sowie m.russell)! Da machen wir uns aber auch nicht gerade beliebt hier, oder? 99,6% der Leser verstehen nur Bahnhof. Für mich ist das Schreiben in englisch eine gute Übung. Aber ich merke schon, je differenzierter die Materie, desto grösser das Handycap in einer Fremdsprache schreiben zu müssen. Kommen die Umlaute bei Dir sauber an? Blödeldüdeldädel? Ciao Danny - und danke für Deinen Input! - - Jürg - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 21:55:47 +0100 From: "Juerg Loeffler" Subject: Re: Joni Mitchell List (SJC) Hi Don, >I think you are the first Swiss to join since I signed on about a year ago. Is this true? Joni was pretty popular here in the 70s, but the youngsters don't know her anymore. In the CD-Shops Joni usually doesn't have a particular register-card, she's goes under "M various", if at all. >I had the extreme pleasure of visiting Switzerland a number of times in >the 1970s..... such a beautiful place! Glad you liked it. There are certainly magnificent places here, but when you come to the bigger cities like Zurich or Geneva, you'd propably find that there are just like 1000 other cities, except that you see banks all over the place. Bye Don, and thanks for your warm welcome! - - Juerg - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 16:03:03 -0500 From: "Reuben P Bell" Subject: Re: Star Sign (NJC) I am of the Pisces bunch, born smack in the middle on March 3rd. Reuben np: Spiritualized - Ladies and Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space >I don't believe in astrology as I'm a virgo and virgo's are sceptics >:) > >Michael >ns Gardinia & Jasmine aaaahhhhhhhhh !!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:00:34 -0500 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: Julie's letter to the NYT Julie wrote: > Thank you Eric and eveyone else who thanked me privately and on the >list. I can't believe it got in, and that it was the only supportive letter >out of 4! If anyone is interested in what the other letters said, let me >know. Julie; Could you post the other letters? (Deja vu) The NYT Magazine isn't on-line and I didn't buy a paper today. Enjoy the concert Chicago! POC ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 18:04:26 -0500 From: Marsha Subject: Chicago and Joni Hi, all. Had a fun evening yesterday in the company of jmdl'ers listening to Fred Simon dazzle us with his virtuosity on grand piano. Thanks, Fred, for the renditions of Joni tunes, degrees-of-separation-to-Joni tunes, and all you composed and shared with us. As we all (11) compared seat locations, most of us are in the same 12th row up front for tonight's performance at the United Center. Will report after the show, so excited about hearing DJRD live and the VG-8'ed Free Man... Marsha, back from Mary Cassatt's exhibition at the Art Institute of Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 23:24:43 +0100 From: "Peter Holmstedt" Subject: Plug Of The Week #43 Yes, I know..... I have said it before, but I have to say it again: You just HAVE TO listen to Pamela Polland's latest album: " Heart Of The World " ( Off The Leash ) The uplifting material on the album ranges from her memorable duet with Kenny Loggins on "The Welcoming" and the soulful "Sanctuary" , to the powerful prayer "Letting Go". One of the songs, "Chimayo", which features Bonnie Raitt on backup vocals and Chris Hillman, of the Byrds, on mandolin, was adapted from a poem by a blind man. A friend of Raitt's from a couple of decades ago in Los Angeles, Polland says, " I gave Bonnie a choice between two songs, and that's what she chose. She was a dream to work with, and it's a thrill to have her on the album ". Besides contributions from Raitt, Loggins and Hillman, the album also features the talents of Paul McCandless of Oregon, Mike Marshall from the band Montreaux, Will Kennedy from the Yellowjackets, as well as the Kenny Loggins Band. "I've known Kenny and Bonnie for a long time", she says."I grew up in Los Angeles in an era when the singer/songwriter was lauded, so in my formative years I grew up with Kenny, Bonnie, Jackson Browne, Linda Ronstadt and Joni Mitchell. There was a creative community and we all used to get together and jam and collaborate". During this time, one of Polland's songs "I've Got To Know" was released as the b-side to Linda Ronstadt's "Different Drum" and another song was included on the Byrds "Easy Rider". (Check the liner notes on the re-mastered version of that album!) In 1969 she was signed to Epic Records as a member of the group Gentle Soul. "That was my first foray into the world of recording" she says. "Ry Cooder played guitar, Van Dyke Parks played keyboards and Taj Mahal was on one of our singles". In 1970 she was hired as a backup singer on Joe Cocker's legendary "Mad Dogs & Englishman" Tour. "It was everything you could imagine a wild rock'n'roll tour could be, with groupies, late nights and drugs" she laughs. "I was an anomaly. I was a vegetarian, meditating, non-drug-taking little flower child in the midst of this cacaphony, but I loved the music and I adored Leon Russell and Joe Cocker ". In the 70's she recorded three solo albums for Columbia and Epic. If you don't know what to put in your CD player this or next week, please give her latest album "Heart Of The World" a chance. You won't regret it ! Copies are available from: peemer@aloha.net BUY IT ! ! ! Take care, Peter ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 23:08:20 +0000 From: Rob Jordan Subject: Martin Simpson (SJC) We've taken a week off work, staying in a little flat over a shop in Norwich. The details said there would be a phone line, but it would be barred for external calls. Nevertheless, I brought my laptop, hoping that I might be able to get something going with a calling card. It was the first thing I checked after dropping suitcases. Lo and behold - here I am! So, we arrived yesterday and last night went out to hear Martin Simpson. He's been mentioned on the list before. He interviewed Joni for Acoustic Guitar magazine. Technically, he is the most awesome acoustic guitarist you are ever likely to hear. Maybe because I was feeling very sleepy (packing till 4am the night before) he didn't really connect with me emotionally last night, like he has the previous times I've seen him. *But* I have to report that he played a great version of A Case of You as his encore, saying he felt "a bit cheeky" every time he plays it. I know Steve and Leslie Mixon knew him when he lived in Santa Cruz. He said he'd just moved to New Orleans. Look out Michael Paz, there's a British guitar sensation heading your way. Rob np: TV documentary about Aryan Nation - frightening stuff ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 21:47:53 +0000 From: Rob Jordan Subject: Re: the human condition >Mark responded: >> I think Hejira is the most self-involved >> album Joni has ever recorded. Granted her observations are beautifully >> expressed and much of what is personal to her is also universal. And Barbara countered: >i think (and i know this is no original thought) that when art is the most >personal is when it is the most universal. that is, i agree with mark that >hejira is the most self-involved of joni's records (though blue and C&S are >contenders). i don't think joni's aspirations were to reflect the human >condition (that's more what DED's about), but in being so successful in >expressing the depths of her own feelings, she made a record that does reflect >the human condition. I probably wasn't clear what I meant about the human condition... I don't know DED well at all, but from what I understand its theme is political: world issues, greed, hypocrisy, etc. What I meant about the human condition is something perhaps bigger, though in another sense smaller than that. I mean each individual trying to figure out his/her role in relation to the universe. What motivates us, what we can contribute, what we can take from this opportunity we have on earth. I'm not so much a lyrics guy, but my impression is that Blue expresses emotions: I'm sad, I'm happy, this relationship is going well/badly, and Hejira goes one step further in saying, what does this emotion tell me about the world, or how can I bring the experience I have gained from "guru books" to bear on the situation. In other words putting the emotion in a greater context. What leads me to this conclusion? I'm thinking of course of Hejira and that stunning cinematic zoom from the photograph of the moon in to "me here least of all". And of "Refuge of the Roads", and the interweaving of the travel narrative with the Buddhist element of ?Chogyam (sorry, I don't have the name to hand). Alright, I know my limitations, and I probably can't go any deeper in this thread without bullshitting. Just my two-penn'orth. I'll probably never again get to write a post headed "The Human Condition", so it's been worth it for that alone :-) Rob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 22:38:05 +0000 From: Rob Jordan Subject: Re: RS album guide (SJC) At 00:13 24/10/98 -0600, Evian wrote: >Hi. A week or so ago (I think) someone posted about how they discovered >Joni through the Rolling Stone album guide. It was me. >When I was 14 or so, I picked up a >copy of the RS album guide that was on sale for 99 cents. I believe >that this edition came out at the end of the 70's or in the very >beginning of the 80's. I loved this book, and I respected the reviews >for the most part. Through this guide I discovered a lot of music that >I would never have heard before. If it had 5, or even 4 stars, I >assumed it was great. We had an amazingly similar experience! I was given mine as a Christmas present when I was about 14, though I'm sure full price was paid. I'd already dog-eared a copy in the bookshop for a few weeks before putting it on my Christmas list. I still have mine, but it's very crumpled now. I know I have a tendency to pay too much attention to critical opinion - but you're right, this book was crucial guide back into rock's past, and I discovered so much great music through this book. BTW, the editors were Dave Marsh and John Swanson, though the reviews came from many RS staffers. > So, I was very disappointed when the new edition came out I didn't get the new edition, so can't comment. >but still... if RS is the supposed rock Bible, they should be a little >more consistent. I don't think you can expect consistency. We're pretty inconsistent in our appreciation of Joni albums, as the poll showed. Would we rather have the Joni section written by a single enthusiast, or a committee paper written to reflect the overall results of the poll? Personally I'd go for the single enthusiast. There's another book I used to see on the store shelves, but never bought. It's called "Stranded", different critics each pick just one album and explain over ten or so pages why this would be their number one choice for the desert island. These were really nice essays. I think Lester Bangs chose Astral Weeks (i've seen that review on the web somewhere within the last couple of years) and someone else (Langston ???) chose Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica, saying that a desert island was the only place he'd feel comfortable playing it all day long without being evicted by his neighbours. It irks me that the RS guide underrates Hejira and DJRD, which is why it took me nearly twenty years to discover them. But I think there is a tendency to "normalise" the ratings so that the greatest artists do not score 5 stars for every release. Ultimately you can't take this stuff seriously, just use it as a tool in the hunt for great work. Rob feeling like the stamp collector of rock POSSIBLY BECAUSE I'M A VIRGO!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 19:36:52 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Ass-trology (NJC) Sagitarians always say that. > Did I mention that astrology is bunk? > Jim L'Hommedieu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 19:44:28 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Halloween help (absolutely NJC) I'm polling you guys on this because I know this list is full of sensitive and thoughtful people. Private replies would be appreciated. I'm invited to a party where I must come as a famous dead person. There is a prize for most tasteless costume. Would you be completely offended if someone came as JonBenet Ramsey? How about Mother Theresa? Nicole Brown Simpson? This is a serious inquiry!! I want to be tasteless, but I don't want people to hate me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 18:49:19 -0500 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: RE: Halloween help (absolutely NJC) > -----Original Message----- > From: Deb Messling > I'm invited to a party where I must come as a famous dead person. > There is a prize for most tasteless costume. > > Would you be completely offended if someone came as JonBenet Ramsey? > How about Mother Theresa? Nicole Brown Simpson? NBS might be interesting. Obviously, the MOST tasteless would be Princess Diana. Depending on how hip and modern the party is, you could always try Jesus. I saw someone do that once. Carried around his own cardboard cross... or how about someone more historical? Cleopatra, Van Gogh, etc... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 18:56:12 EST From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: What's the best Joni album In a message dated 10/21/98 2:40:09AM, howard@mpimedia.com writes: << Don Juan's Reckless Daughter stinker, except for the brilliant Dreamland >> Oh Howie! I have to admit I haven't listened to DJRD very often, but there is at least one other great song on that album (leaving aside the "Paprika Plains" debate): "The Silky Veils of Ardor". That'd be in my top ten Joni songs. As for the album countdown, I'm working on it... Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 18:09:32 -0600 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Halloween help (absolutely NJC) I think who you dress up as depends on who will be at the party. If there is a good number of people who would get a kick out of JonBenet Ramsey, then go for it! I would find it hilarious if someone did that-just put on gobs and gobs of makeup and find a pink tutu. You could just say you are in a beauty pageant or something. NP-Fleetwood Mac-Rumours At 7:44 PM +0000 10/25/98, Deb Messling wrote: >Would you be completely offended if someone came as JonBenet Ramsey? >How about Mother Theresa? Nicole Brown Simpson? ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 00:10:31 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: Martin Simpson (SJC) Rob Jordan wrote: > np: TV documentary about Aryan Nation - frightening stuff I had to stop watching it before I broke the tv. - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 00:16:17 +0000 From: catman Subject: Re: the human condition Just with regard to DED being politcal and not about the human condition. i don't think you can separate the two-the political is personal. Each and everyone of us acts and thinks according to our 'conditon'. This of course includes why we vote a particular, what we buy, whetehr we are racists, sexist, capitalists, socialists, nazi etc. none of that can be separated from the personal. So to me DED is about the human conditon. As are all her works to me. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #438 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?