From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #431 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, October 22 1998 Volume 03 : Number 431 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Title track of TTT [David Wright ] Re: Joni's take on her art ["Kakki" ] TTT - comments on title track [Howard Wright ] Re: what's the best joni album [M.Russell@iaea.org] favourite albums [Howard Wright ] Re: what's the best joni album ["philipf" ] Embarrassing joni moment [Rob Jordan ] Favourite Joni [Rob Jordan ] Re: hopper?/man i love/vote [BarBearUh ] Re: Joni's take on her art ["Deb Messling" ] Blue -- the sequel ["Deb Messling" ] re: what's the best joni album [Robert Holliston ] Re: Joni takes on her art ["M & C Urbanski" ] Dylan live [Kevin_E_Licht@email.whirlpool.com (Kevin E Licht)] Marsha and Binoculars [mann@chicagonet.net] Re: Final Birthday List Being Forwarded ["Steven A. Blue" ] Re: Final Birthday List Being Forwarded [Chilihead2@aol.com] Re: Final Birthday List Being Forwarded ["Steven A. Blue" ] Re: Blue -- the sequel ["philipf" ] Re: Embarrassing joni moment [LRFye@aol.com] (NJC) Re: Marsha and Binoculars ["Marsha" ] Re: Title track of TTT ["Marsha" ] RE: Final Birthday List Being Forwarded [Brett Code ] Joni & *$ [Janet Hess ] Shopping with Joni [Phyliss Ward ] Cookbook [Phyliss Ward ] Re: joni's paintings [Chilihead2@aol.com] Joni tops record sales at local store [Bmcd@aol.com] Re: joni's paintings [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Title track of TTT [Howard Motyl ] Re: Joni's art ["John M. Lind" ] Re: joni's paintings ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: joni's paintings ["Marsha" ] Joni vs. SOHO [Chilihead2@aol.com] Re: Title track of TTT [Howard Motyl ] Re: Joni's take on her art [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni's take on her art [PMcfad@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 04:35:00 +0100 From: David Wright Subject: Re: Title track of TTT Don Rowe writes: >Hello David -- and a belated welcome to the jmdl. I sincerely >hope that you won't think this response a "baptism of fire", but I >feel a certain need to rush to "TTT's" defense. Hello Don! Thanks! This IS a belated welcome, as I've been on for almost a year (my anniversary will be Joni's birthday), and been baptized by now in all kinds of substances. :) I HAVE been posting somewhat less lately, perhaps. > ><<"kids...with those wide wide open stares/and the kids got cokes >and chocolate bars">> > >This is NOT complaining, it is merely a tender observation. I >don't see where you get the idea that Joni's "carping". Is the >man in the song "smoking a fat cigar" a complaint from Joni about >second-hand smoke? I think not. ;-) I think "wide wide open stares" is more of a negative value judgment than the description of the thin man (especially coming from a nicotine addict ;) ). Also, the thin man comment is aimed at a specific person ("*a* thin man"), while "wide wide open stares" is aimed at "kids," in general. But I do see your point that this is just an observation in the song -- though maybe a slightly revealing one -- and not a tirade. > >>2) I think the chorus's fusion of William Blake with nursery >>rhymes >>("the old man is snoring") with "Nice kitty kitty!" is just plain >>jarringly unsuccessful. > >It's a daring juxtaposition, which is bound to anger either those >who worship Blake or fondly remember nursery rhymes. I do neither of those things. (Nor does it offend me when she daringly calls Shakespeare "Willy the Shake.") And as to the comparison below with "Both Sides Now," that song describes looking at a single thing (clouds, love, life) from two sides, whereas for me "TTT" is more like looking at the same side of two completely different things, which doesn't add up to a whole thing. I like juxtaposition, but my basic problem with the song is that she attempts to juxtapose SO many different elements that it becomes cluttered -- it obscures the larger picture. >>3) The background voices >Well, here I have to say that I've just always loved Joni's "Greek >Chorus" ... it's one of her greatest and most consistent features. >I see these as the voices of reason, conscience ... the devil and >angel on Joni's shoulders. Besides, there's nothing wrong with >comic, is there? I love the effect too, in "Job's Sad Song" and "Come in from the Cold" for example. The wordless backing vocals in "Song for Sharon" are so powerful for me that I hear them as a sort of Greek chorus too, in a way. I agree with Drew, it's not the effect itself, it's just the specific way it is used in this song that doesn't work for me -- what the chorus says and sounds like, etc. And, unfortunately, just because things make me laugh doesn't mean that they're comic. >The structure gives an impression of the unpredictability, the >feline nature of music and composing vs. marketing and making >sales. So, Joni intends for me to experience with this song the same irritation, frustration, intense dislike, and sense of absurdity that SHE experiences with the music industry? In that case, I guess she succeeds wildly! :) I saved my rant for last: >"But he has nothing on!" exclaims the small boy in "The >Emporer's New Clothes". And that's what's going on here, I >think. So Joni casts herself in this role, and says what a lot >of us are thinking about Hanson, Spice Chicks, shock make-up >horror shows, empty grunge angst [snip] "Empty grunge angst"??!? I don't even own any Nirvana albums myself, but I know people (mostly my age, for what that's worth) whose relationship to that music was not and is not "empty" at all. There's nothing wrong at all with "not getting" music (Nirvana, Hanson, Spice Girls, shock make-up horror shows, whatever); there's a lot of music that I don't get. It's when you (not you personally, Don) assume, as Joni does, that because you don't get it there's nothing to get, and that people who do get it are actually only pretending to get it because of "the herd mentality." That attitude is as reactionary and *insulting* when Joni levels it at Nirvana's fans (and Tracy Chapman's, Alanis Morissette's, Prince's [he's just a hybrid, she says, not a true innovator], etc., etc.) as it was when Joni's parents' generation leveled it at the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Bob Dylan ("that's not singing!"), etc., etc. Best to all, - --David NP: Loreena McKennitt, _The Mask and Mirror_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:16:05 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni's take on her art The following are excerpts from the August '98 MOJO interview with Joni. I needed to go back to this to clarify again her philosophy toward her own art. Notice that she does not claim to be a "great" artist or the "greatest" artist, destined for all posterity in the museums and art history books. She merely restates again that she considers herself a painter first. I think she creates what she loves to create in painting, unhampered by any rules, fads, or hand-wringing to be the most innovative or "original." From what she says below, she appears to know exactly what she is doing and is happy with it. Have to say I like and agree with her attitude and find her resistance to pressures to be, as she says, "moderne", to be rather original in itself! Kakki >I'm really a painter at heart and I can say this now since, >you know, Kilauren has come along. Music was a hobby for me at art >school, and art was serious. Art was always what I was going to do; >I was going to be an artist. But the time that I went to art school >was very disappointing - although I romanticised the time that Van >Gogh went to art school. I thought that to go to the French Academy >at that particular time - even though as a female I would have been >considered on associate no matter how good I was - was the best >education you could get. And yet in Van Gogh's letters to Bernard, >he's begging him to get out of there, saying, "They're providing you >with subject matter - if they have their way, they'll make a >mistress of your art, and you won't know your true love-should you >come upon it." He was begging him to get out and just paint from >his heart at that time. That was an eye-opener to me - when I read >that, I thought, I'm going to give myself the art education: I'm >going to paint the way I want to, never mind the art world. So I >went back to painting landscapes and my friends and cats and not >making a mistress of it - stopping trying to be innovative and >moderne, and painting the kind of paintings that I can't afford to >buy that I want to have in my house, you know? > >> The paintings an display on Saturday night were gorgeous. > >People like that kind of painting: The art world will apologise for >it if they write about it, you know what I mean? The art world is a >funny world - I'm glad I never had to be a part of the gallery scene >or anything. > >> Do you know Don Van Vliet, Captain Beefheart? > >Yeah, he's a good painter. > >> He retired from making music in the early '80s, ostensibly to >> paint. I spoke with the man who handles his work professionally, >> and he mentioned that it was tough for any musician to be taken >> seriously in the art world unless he devoted his time solely to >> art. >> He said it wauld take a minimum of 10 years for him to be away >> from the music business to be taken seriously at all. > >Absolutely. You're regarded as a dilettante. That's because - >here's my opinion on that - America is far away from a renaissance >spirit. I've seen shows passing through Rome, the poet as painter, >Ferlinghetti's drawings on display. That's a renaissance culture: >they understand it, condone it. Why shouldn't a poet be able to >render? Not all of them can, but supposing they can? Don't rule it >out. > >> You made that point very well on Saturday night when you mentioned >> what Georgia O'Keeffe said. > >(Quoting) "Oh, I would've liked to be a musician, too, but you can't >do both." It's a lot of work, you have to give up a certain amount >of socialising - but the way I learn anyway, everything that I >admire sparks me: best teach it to me as admiration. > >I have strong and strange opinions on things which are kinda >controversial. As a painter I admire much. And it's been hard - >like music, it's been hard to synthesize the many styles that I >like. In art school I was criticised for painting in two or three >schools at the same time. Music hybrids better than perhaps >painting does immediately. I ended up kind of without a country - >you know, musically speaking ! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:57:44 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: TTT - comments on title track From: David Wright Subject: Title track of TTT > 4) The song is not well written to me...the first half of each stanza sets > a pensive scene or mood...then, in the second half, out of nowhere she > starts complaining about the music industry -- for example, in the first > stanza, going from "over the rent-a-car" to "I'm a runaway from the > record biz" in about one bar. I don't see any discontinuity between the first and second halves of the verses. In the first verse she sings "I stepped outside to breathe the air and stare up at the stars .... I'm a runaway from the record biz ..." I took this to mean that she's sick of the record biz (as if we didn't know that ;-) ) and that she needs to step outside from the hassle and the sh*t once in a while to chill so that she can handle it. In the second verses she writes about how it gets more risky as you get closer to "the tiger". You want to be acknowledged and appreciated, but then you have a longer way to fall when things screw up. And when everyone's saying how great you are, it only takes the smallest blunder to ruin it all. So the lines about "purring at your side" and "one false move and you're a goner" make sense I think. I did agree with David's comments about "Anna". Since we have no clue about who this is, the line is a little empty. I used to hear the line as "honour" - which I thought made sense, but since the lyric sheets have "Anna" I guess this should be right ... > The lyric sheet gives the line in the chorus as "Tiger tiger burning > brightLY." I hear her singing "bright," but I haven't listened closely. She sings both: Tiger, tiger burning bright - ly Be nice kitty, kitty Tiger, tiger burning bright. It's the same in all choruses - alternate lines have bright and brightly. I guess she did it because brightly goes better with "kitty", and the next "bright" goes with "night" (in the forest of the night). Howard W. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:00:03 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: what's the best joni album On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:39:58 -0400 "Eric Taylor" wrote: < Marian wrote: <>You can number this list from 1 through 17 if you want, but I <>have a really hard time ranking them, because I feel like <>there are distinct groups of equally good albums... < ranking Shadows And Light dead last. As I ranked SAL < my favorite, this just goes to show what a diverse following < Joni has. The reason I think SAL & MOA should be included < is that her renditions of In France They Kiss On Main Street, < Amelia, Furry Sings The Blues, The Dry Cleaner From Des < Moines, Woodstock & Blue sound a lot better live to me. < And I adore both versions of Jericho. I guess I just don't like the noisiness of S&L. I try to listen to it all, but it hurts my ears in places. I agree that TDCFDM and Furry are much better on this album. In fact, I really only like the S&L version of Furry. And the song S&L itself is also beautiful with the organ and the choir. Heavenly. It's just the only one Joni's albums where I feel like I have to pre-program the track selection, because on most of the songs I can't stand the noise. I have a similar feeling about much of Miles of Aisles. < But I'm curious, Marian. Why did you leave TTT off your list? I didn't. It's listed in the group of four in third place (according to my strange ranking) or number 12 if you start from the top. I listed it as Taming the Tiger instead of TTT, so maybe that's why you missed it. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:17:56 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: favourite albums 1. Hejira - just a superb album. I've never been travelling with this album, but I still adore it. 2. Hissing of Summer Lawns - Joni Mitchell's "Revolver" (or was it her Sgt. Pepper?). Awesome variety, great arrangements and great songs. 3. For The Roses - Joni bites back! Lots of lovely piano. Some of Joni's tenderest and most powerful moments are here. 4. Court and Spark - just a fine album. 5. Blue - Don't know what to say. Listen to the album - it says it all! I feel bad that I didn't include DJRD and TTT - both are very good albums, but the others seemed to have the edge. I'm sure I might change my mind in a month or so. I think it's too close to the release of TTT to gain the right perspective. Howard W. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:38:09 +0100 From: "philipf" Subject: Re: what's the best joni album 1. For the Roses 2. Chalkmark (the awesome and the awful on one record) 3. Hissing of Summer lawns 4. Taming the Tiger (Blue - the sequel) 5. Turbulent Indigo (a masterpiece) 6. Miles of Aisles (I loved her live voice on this) 7. Wild Things (only in top ten because of Love) 8. Night Ride Home 9. Clouds (my first. bought because my sister used to sing Both Sides Now - Judy Collins style) 10. Song to a Seagull 11. Hejira 12. Blue 13. Mingus 14. Shadows and Light (will these two master guitarists ever work together again) 15. Court and Spark (overplay rubbed out some of the magic) 16. Ladies of the Canyon 17. Don Juan 18. Dog Eat Dog (how to ruin good songs) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:17:31 +0100 From: Rob Jordan Subject: Embarrassing joni moment I thought you might enjoy the following. This morning, as every morning, I boarded the 7:22 to London Waterloo, and got out my laptop, to read the latest JMDL posts. Reading JMDL on the train saves me staying up into the early hours of the morning, as I was before. Anyway, I had forgotten that yesterday, at home I was listening to Hejira in the CD player. When I turned on the PC, Coyote immediately started playing. In my confusion and embarrassment I fumbled around trying to turn it off. I turned the volume control the wrong way and it was playing at maximum volume, waking the drowsy commuters with the lines "I'm up all night in the studio and you're up early on your ranch". Finally, I managed to find the eject button and silenced the damn thing. I don't know if you can imagine the atmosphere of a British commuter train, but if I say it usually has a feel somewhere between a library and a morgue, you'll get an idea of how embarrassing this was! Blushing and apologising profusely, I retreated behind my screen to read my e-mail. Rob np: A British folk compilation I made last night for David Wright ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:07:25 +0100 From: Rob Jordan Subject: Favourite Joni Round about 1978 my Joni quest started, as, armed with my trusty handbook, The Rolling Stone Album Guide, I began to plough through Joni's back catalogue. I was in a hurry, as I had about 22 years of rock history to catch up with; there are probably 500 5-star albums in this book, and I wanted to hear all of them. Joni's 5-stars, as I remember, were Blue and Court and Spark, so they were top of my list. I got Blue from the local record library and taped it. I listened to that tape a million times and never replaced it until the CD era. There was a funny little glitch or drop-out on the tape during California, and to this day I still expect to hear that every time I listen to the CD. Court and Spark I found at a record fair - I remember being bewitched by the opening song on each side, Court and Spark and Car on a Hill. Hissing also came from the library, but it must have been a bit later, since the tape was one of those expensive Chrome ones - I couldn't have afforded that as a schoolboy - ahh, the archeology of a music collection. Likewise For The Roses. Those were the core of my collection in the pre-JMDL years. I also picked up CMIAR and NRH when they were released, but they never sunk so deep into me as the earlier albums. When I make lists of favourites, classics from those 22 years before I got into the music often dominate - it worries me that I'm so retro, but I think it is to do with discovering them at a time when I had oodles of spare time to be totally obsessive about music. Nowadays, whilst I'm always listening to something, it usually has to fit in around other activities. That brings us to the JMDL years as Julie puts it (I like that phrase!), where you folks introduced me to Hejira and DJRD, making me realise I'd been seriously missing out. Sorry for the essay! Now the votes: 1. Blue 2. Hejira 3. FTR 4. DJRD 5. Court and Spark 6. Hissing 7. NRH 8. TI 9. Ladies of the Canyon 10. TTT 11. Miles of Aisles 12. Clouds 13. WTRF 14. CMIAR 15. Shadows and Light Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 06:46:20 +0000 From: BarBearUh Subject: Re: hopper?/man i love/vote Mark in Seattle: > > I'm no art expert so forgive me if this sounds laughably ignorant but > does anybody else see a bit of Edward Hopper in the TTT paintings? > Something about the painting of the man with the glasses and the bowl > with the light bulb & the key... doesn't sound laughably ignorant to me. this is my favorite painting from the TTT packaging & i see more than just a bit of hopper in this one. totally hopperesque. on another note... i'm so psyched to hear 'the man i love'. this song is part of one of my all-time favorite scenes from a musical - when judy garland sings it in the beginning of 'a star is born'. it's an incredible bare-bones performance. BTW, kate bush also covers this song on 'the glory of gershwin' (produced by george martin). and another vote... 1. DJRD 2. C&S/Hissing 3. FTR 4. S&L ('black crow' is killer)/Mingus/Hejira 5. TI/NRH ('slouching twds bethlehem') 6. Blue ('river')/Chalkmark/WTRF ('love') 9. LOC/Clouds/STAS/TTT/DED/MOA barbara np: TTT ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:11:57 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Joni's take on her art Gotta "me-too" this post. Why does Joni need one more set of rules/fashions to follow? I'm laughably ignorant about art, but I like Joni's stuff because it's just real purdy, and that's enough. >. Have to say I like and agree with her > attitude and find her resistance to pressures to be, as she says, "moderne", > to be rather original in itself! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:14:56 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Blue -- the sequel Philip said, in his list of bests: > 4. Taming the Tiger (Blue - the sequel) Interesting! Would you care to elaborate? (if you did already and I missed it, I'm sorry!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 04:21:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: what's the best joni album Oh, gosh, this is tough. I don't understand why someone left out the live ones, but I've included them. My list will be of no use whatsoever to anyone compiling statistics, but here it is anyway. The other day I came home wanting to listen to nothing but Mingus. It was my favorite Joni album for several listenings. Here they are, my favorite Joni albums, grouped accordingly: I bought them all in July 1978, unless they weren't released yet: it was a tough wait for Mingus, let me tell you!.... FIVE-STAR JONI ALBUMS, chronologically: Ladies of the Canyon (my first Joni album, birthday present in 1970. Unforgettable and still deeply moving and relevant [on my third vinyl] Blue For the Roses Court and Spark The Hissing of Summer Lawns Hejira Don Juan's Reckless Daughter (which is NOT a stinker!) Shadows and Light (an awesome experience) Turbulent Indigo Taming the Tiger FOUR-AND-A-HALF STAR JONI ALBUMS, chronologically: Songs to a Seagull (despite the sound it's full of great songs) Miles of Aisles (the unaccompanied songs) Mingus (great singing and great lyrics - let's hear the outtakes...) Chalk Mark in a Rain Storm (a beautiful underrated album...) Night Ride Home FOUR STAR JONI ALBUM: Clouds THREE-AND-A-HALF STAR JONI ALBUM: Wild Things Run Fast (Chinese Cafe/Moon at the Window/Love - 5 star songs) TWO STAR JONI ALBUM: Dog Eat Dog (I thought I was making progress with this one, but now that Sherrie's admonished us to love it or leave it ;-), I'll leave it. Nah, I'll listen to it from time to time. I used to hate it, now I respect it. Hoping one day to love it...but it's a chore. The music's OK, but I still find the lyrics disingenuous, particularly when compared to Turbulent Indigo...... NEGATIVE A BILLION JONI ALBUM: Ick Ick Ick! Miles of Aisles: the numbers featuring Tom Scott and his less than mediocre band. No song suffers more than "You Turn Me On," with the cheesy piano riff and the Tarzan yodelling competition between singer and guitarist at the end (no one wins), but "Carey," "Big Yellow Taxi," and "Jericho" are treated like Las Vegas standards. Gross and horrible. Only my opinion.... love, Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:29:10 -0400 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: Joni takes on her art Kakki included an excerpt from MOJO in her earlier post. I'm not going to include the whole article in this post but, I'll make references. Before we go any further, I'd like to say that I am really enjoying this discussion & everyone's responses. I'm also playing devil's advocate for the sake of a good discussion. Joni can paint what ever she loves in what ever style she loves. The are no "art police" out there. I'm also a great lover of the impressionist on (& Joni's art). Also to answer the other posts, I couldn't think of Hopper's name last night but, yes the guy with the glasses is very much that style. First of all in the article Joni says she's a painter at heart. That's obvious and she is very good at it. I knew at the age of 5 that I was an artist. I imitated all styles I loved...Van Gogh, Piccasso, etc; As a creative person, no matter what your media, I would think one wants to create something that one can call "my style" instead of following the leader. Joni does it in her music. She is outrageously creative. When you listen to any one of her songs, she paints an image in the listener's imagination. I've taken songs like Hejira and set them to canvas! The songs move my soul. In the article, Joni quotes Van Gogh's letters to Bernard saying "They'll make a mistress of your art, and you won't know your true love-should you come upon it". Take that in the context of the time it was written. The impressionists were breaking away from "romanticism art". They were the Joni Mitchells of the time plowing a new path in art. Look at the art on the Joni home page that artists have done of Joni. That is art moved from the soul even though the subject matter is Joni. The styles are unique. IN imitating the impressionist style Joni has made "a mistress" of her art. Kakki said Joni could be the 8th artist in the group of 7. Is that a compliment? They have made a name for themselves (when I go to Toronto for the concert, I'm going to visit their gallery). That statement tells me that Joni can't be identified as an artist of her own style. Anyway, Joni loves to paint impressionism and that's ok. My point is: she paints so beautifully with words- I'd love to see her take that talent and put it on canvas. Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:25:12 -0400 From: Kevin_E_Licht@email.whirlpool.com (Kevin E Licht) Subject: Dylan live I've noticed several comments concerning Joni's choice to 'open' for Dylan. It seems like a lot of folks consider it a chore to listen to Bob live. I'd just like to say that anyone who hasn't been to one of his shows in recent years is missing out. I've caught him recently in concert playing small venues and was also fortunate enough to attend the Gorge shows in May. Dylan has a very strong band and Bob himself appears to really be trying and having a good time as well. Kevin, psyched for Indy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:39:40 -0500 From: mann@chicagonet.net Subject: Marsha and Binoculars Hey Marsha, Go to: http://209.185.211.150/amigo_test98.htm If you test drive an Isuzu Amigo you get free binoculars!!! (haha) (you may have to send in for them tho...which could take forever) Laura.....always managing to find just about everything for nothing! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:23:56 -0000 From: "Steven A. Blue" Subject: Re: Final Birthday List Being Forwarded - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Paz To: joni@smoe.org Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 3:38 AM Subject: Final Birthday List Being Forwarded >Here is the FINAL list of names signed up for the Birthday Card. These >will be forwarded to Wally. Thanks to everyone for your cooperation and >patience. > >Michael > >3bunas@accessatlanta.com >adelphot@bga.com >amadden@bconnex.net >artwear@ncweb.com >Ashara@aol.com >AzeemAK@aol.com >b.a.currier@bham.ac.uk >bamm_bamm@juno.com >barbearuh@erols.com >Barrylauri@aol.com >BH1248@aol.com >blues@sgi.net >Bmcd@aol.com >bokonon@texas.net >briangross@rocketmail.com >catman@ethericcats.demon.co.uk >Charstarl@aol.com >codeb@duncanmccachen.com >cspring@gs.verio.net >daricem@sfpl.lib.ca.us >dduncan@ipa.net >Denisongs@aol.com >dlawson@westnet.com >Dmascall@aol.com >docnurse@voy.net >donbvs@lightspeed.net >dougoram@mail >Drewdix@aol.com >dvsclaud@worldnet.att.net >evian@sk.sympatico.ca >ewwtaylor@prodigy.net >Fluke_s@email.msn.com >FredNow@aol.com >G.McNamara@bom.gov.au >gerlad@mb.sympatico.ca >Gertus@aol.com >GIBBS.PHILLIP@a1.rio.maricopa.e >ginny@anv.net >h.gill@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au >Harpua@revealed.net >haw@ph.ed.ac.uk >hz@famelon.demon.co.uk >ignatzmouse2@yahoo.com >IVPAUL42@aol.com >j.pukkila@pp.inet.fi >Jan201@aol.com >JAWebster2@aol.com >jdawson@igs.net >jgyn@sfusd.k12.ca.us >jill@opticalres.com >jilllinn@hotmail.com >jlamadoo@one.net >jloeffler@datacomm.ch >jml@amweaver.com >john.p.miller@LMCO.COM >johnsonjs@earthlink.net >julie@isosys.com >jzw@visint.com >kakkib@att.net >Kay_Ashley@ars.aon.com >kbarnicle@ensr.com >KCooper984@aol.com >kevin_e_licht@email.whirlpool.c >kg@ibm.net >les@jmdl.com >louis.lynch@wonderware.com >LRFye@aol.com >luvart@snet.net >M.Russell@iaea.org >Marilune@aol.com >Mark-n-Travis@worldnet.att.net >megg56@yahoo.com >messling@enter.net >mfeiring@online.no >MGV1@valley-media.com >MHart16164@aol.com >michaelb@coolgold.com.au >millers@albany.net >naturegirrrl@hotmail.com >notaro@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu >p.headon@net.ntl.com >philipf@tinet.ie >phy6pgk@phys-irc.novell.leeds.a >PitassiM@WEAC.org >pmeyer@ibm.net >pward@lightspeed.net >queenaim@email.msn.com >rhollis@islandnet.com >rkb200@is5.nyu.edu >rnusca@globalserve.net >rob.jordan@which.net >Robbert@vansprang.demon.nl >rogalski@umdnj.edu >rwalker@erinet.com >S Chininis@aol.com >scam@freeway.net >Seanapper@aol.com >Simonis5@aol.com >sirsurf@yahoo.com >skindeep@hdo.net >slarty@total.net >sp@olympus.net >steve@psitech.com> >stevem@cruzio.com >TerryM2442@aol.com >TheFishPond@Prodigy.net >tncturley@worldnet.att.net >treadmill@centuryinter.net >tunajon@aol.com >twomey@clubi.ie >wallyb@well.com >Wallykai@interserver.com.ar >whitlock@karmanos.org >whuehn@stud.uni-goettingen.de >WirlyPearl@aol.com >wowpub@quake.net >xhohx@earthlink.net >yarn@cyberenet.net >yarn@cybernet.net > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:55:58 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Re: Final Birthday List Being Forwarded And where the hell our the Chilis?!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:30:47 -0000 From: "Steven A. Blue" Subject: Re: Final Birthday List Being Forwarded Yea! Where are they? - -----Original Message----- From: Chilihead2@aol.com To: blues@sgi.net ; joni@smoe.org Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Final Birthday List Being Forwarded >And where the hell our the Chilis?!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:21:01 +0100 From: "philipf" Subject: Re: Blue -- the sequel Deb wrote: >Philip said, in his list of bests: >> 4. Taming the Tiger (Blue - the sequel) >Interesting! Would you care to elaborate? I was mainly thinking about the resolution of the Little Green mystery in songs like Stay In Touch and Best To You, and what a beautiful ending (or new beginning) that is. In a more general sense Blue and Tiger are similar in a diaries set to music kind of way. It's probably her most personal and direct record since Blue. She makes no effort to blur the message in Hejira-speak. Similarly both records are self produced and no new musical frontiers were opened up on either record. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:49:29 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: Embarrassing joni moment Rob!!! > I turned the volume control the wrong way and it was playing at > maximum volume, waking the drowsy commuters with the lines "I'm up all > night in the studio and you're up early on your ranch". Thanks!!! That's the best laugh -- especially in the morning -- that I've had in a long time!!!! Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:50:24 -0400 From: "Marsha" Subject: (NJC) Re: Marsha and Binoculars - -----Original Message----- From: mann@chicagonet.net To: Joni@smoe.org Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 8:45 AM Subject: Marsha and Binoculars >Hey Marsha, > >Go to: http://209.185.211.150/amigo_test98.htm > >If you test drive an Isuzu Amigo you get free binoculars!!! (haha) >(you may have to send in for them tho...which could >take forever) > >Laura.....always managing to find just about everything >for nothing! Hey, thanks, Laura! All you divorcees out there must know this moment of flooding that occurs during a split...everything is going along almost fine and you look for some little object you need at the moment, (maybe like you are a bit amnesic to the upheaval that has occurred in your life) and BAM! You realize that little object is lost and gone to you forever, like the relationship... I had a friend who cried over her cheese grater as that moment hit her one night as she was trying to make a pizza. We call them "cheese grater" moments in my circle of girlfriends. Marsha, Chicagoland or Bust.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:09:06 -0400 From: "Marsha" Subject: Re: Title track of TTT - -----Original Message----- From: Eric Taylor To: JMDL Date: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 11:29 PM Subject: Re: Title track of TTT >Marsha wrote: >>...does Joni's "improvement" of the old masters (like Yeats) extend >>to correcting their grammar? (Does anyone really care that Blake >>used an adjective instead of an adverb?) Or was that just a typo? > > I think it's poetic license in both cases. David Wright said this, not I. Please be careful to whom you attribute words. Thanks, Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:16:37 -0600 From: Brett Code Subject: RE: Final Birthday List Being Forwarded Have we really made a final decision not to include our names. Looking at that long list of addresses without names attached is kind of strange. Names are cool. Can we reconsider? Brett np: Barangrill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:46:53 -0400 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: joni's paintings PJ wrote: >i'd like to discuss joni's paintings. i see her work changing over time and i particularily like the ttt paintings and colors. I'll bite. The reason I joined the list in the first place(has it been 2 years? Jeeezus!) was to find out if there was a published book of Joni's paintings. I, like everyone else here I'm sure, is eagerly awaiting the paintings book. Anyway, what aspect of her paintings/drawings do you find appeals to *you* the most? The style and the way her technique has progressed over the years is probably what appeals the most to me. The most obvious change is of course early-on. The influence of countour-line drawing which broke her of her obsession with frilly, minascule details(ie: STAS) and led to more emotive, flowing lines. The differance from Clouds to FTR or the drawings for LOTC and CSNY's "So Far" is amazing and such a big improvement to my taste, wow! I'm also likeing the way she has taken all the aspects of "loosening up" her style(see Mingus for example) and brought them back into her more representational style of recent years. You can really see the combigned influences of Van Gogh, Matisse(sp?), and O'Keefe in her paintings as well. I like the way you can *see* influnces in painting the way you can *hear* them in music. You know how every ELO album is trying to sound like "Magical Mystery Tour" or the strong Varesse influence on early Zappa albums? John~ NP "Take The L Train (To 8 Ave)" - Brooklyn Funk Essentials ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:13:55 -0400 From: Janet Hess Subject: Joni & *$ Greetings. The Starbucks in the next block (Cleveland Park *$, if anyone much cares :-}) has twice this week greeted me with Joni singing "Come In From the Cold." First time it happened I was so thrilled, not to mention so taken aback, that I babbled incoherently at the person whipping up mine drink. Yesterday I simply enjoyed the hail out of it. My fave barista hasn't been there for a few days, so I haven't explored what this is all about. Maybe "Come In From the Cold" is on a special *$ fall rotation to welcome flannel shirts and corduroys? Whatever the reason, I'm glad to be hearing Joni...especially when it's not "Big Yellow Taxi." I like BYT, but I *really* like CIFTC. Cheerz, Janet in DC, where fall has finally arrived!, clutching her 17th row, on-the-floor seats for College Park ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:42:31 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Shopping with Joni At Macy's department store yesterday I heard the faint but beautiful Edith and the Kingpin floating through the air. I stopped dead in my tracks and breathed it in. - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:44:05 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Cookbook Hey Marian... Are we going to get the cookbook project going? : - ) - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:57:18 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Re: joni's paintings Hi, Yes, I did take a good look at Joni's paintings. They are a mixed bag of styles and given that I couldn't draw my way out of a paper bag, I will comment on them anyways. I live with a painter. I have and have had painter friends. To me, painting starts with drawing. If you can't draw well then it usually follows that you can't paint well but not always. It seems obvious that Joni can draw but I think Joni's paintings are mediocre. I like them because I love her music. I might pass them by without a second glance at a street fair. I think her painting of herself as Vincent was funny though. I see O'Keefe's influence, Frida Kahlo, Andrew Wyeth, and Vincent. I do think Joni has enormous potential, but she has not gone far enough, maybe her music is getting in the way. Georgia O'keefe asked Joni if you could be good at both music and painting. What she was getting at I believe, was can you be a master of two forms? I don't see why not. When I was working in clay and I'd thrown thousands of pots and was sculpting too. I brought my work to a master's master. She had studied in Japan. Some of you might know her as a sculptor, Joy Brown. She said you haven't gone far enough. You need to work more. I went off took her advice and my work got much better. My pots came spinning from my heart into my hands into the clay. This is my advice is to Joan. Paint more. Funny thing besides Mrs. Chili and everything Vincent, my favorite painter is Rousseau. If you are going to NY and haven't seen them , they are well worth making the effort to see and both are at the Museum of Modern Art 11 West 53 St, and they are: "The Dream" and "The Sleeping Gypsy". - -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:12:23 EDT From: Bmcd@aol.com Subject: Joni tops record sales at local store An update from Denver.... A very popular and long in business independent record store, Twist and Shout (they carry everything I think) posts at the end of week 10/18 that sales of TTT are still ranking Number 8 of top 30 for the week. That's 2 weeks in a row! So cool Karen Mc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:14:06 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: joni's paintings Chilihead2@aol.com wrote: > It seems obvious that Joni can draw but I > think Joni's paintings are mediocre. I have known and been close to 2 true artistic geniuses, both painters. One is a close friend of mine here in St. Pete, a well known painter and teacher. He loves Joni's music as much as I do. But his comment was exactly the same when he saw the new paintings on TTT. He has seen them on all the other cd's, also. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:12:21 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Title track of TTT Don Rowe wrote: > > >*peddle* a pun? Huh? I don't get it and I ain't no dummy. It's > sheer > >pretension--if it is indeed a pun . . . > > > >Let me in on the hilarious joke . . . > > > The instrument is actually a "pedal steel guitar" -- the pun being that > Joni is "peddling" steel guitars! :-) > > Don Rowe What? I get the pun, I guess . . . But what does Joni Mitchell have to do with "peddling steel guitars"? This makes no sense to me. She is now a sales person for pedal steels? She is pushing steel guitars as if they are a new instrument she just invented? I don't get it . . . Do we know that it was *not* an oversight by some stupid schlep who was proofreading while knowing nothing about music? Do we *know* that it was meant as a terrible and obtuse pun by Ms. Mitchell herself? It seems so below her . . . but on the other hand, considering the lower quality of the lyrics of the album, maybe she lost her mind and did this silly thing with peddle steel. I don't believe, however. Howard M NP: Dave Alvin, The King of California PS--someone just handed me an Utne Reader at mail call and while I was looking for a review of TTT, I came across a half-page ad for it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 00:43:50 -0400 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Re: Joni's art Kakki wrote: >By coincidence, I was pondering this question earlier today and have a theory about it. >>snip<< >Joni's current work would not fit strictly into the Plein Air category but contains many elements of it. Also, thanks to Evian here, I looked at the website he recommended for backround on the Canadian Group of Five (or was it seven?) cited by Patrick as one of Joni's influences. Can you post this URL? I'd like to check it out and I'm sure it would be good for anyone intrested in this topic. >I think if we technically examined Joni's latest expressions in painting, we could legitimately judge it as "original." Can't we safely say that most original works contain at least "some" elements of what has been done before? Of course we can. You can't *not* be influenced by the things you perceive. A persons influences are evident in almost everything they do, be it painting, sculpture, photography, music, film-making, writing, the clothes you wear, the phrases you use when you speak. A big part of any person is the way in which you compose all the influences on your life into the sum of your own personality. John~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:50:51 -0400 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: joni's paintings - ---------- > From: Chilihead2@aol.com > To: jml@amweaver.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: joni's paintings > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 11:57 AM > > Hi, > > Yes, I did take a good look at Joni's paintings. They are a mixed bag of > styles and given that I couldn't draw my way out of a paper bag, I will > comment on them anyways. > . I do think Joni has enormous > potential, but she has not gone far enough, maybe her music is getting in the > way. Georgia O'keefe asked Joni if you could be good at both music and > painting. What she was getting at I believe, was can you be a master of two > forms? I don't see why not. > > When I was working in clay and I'd thrown thousands of pots and was sculpting > too. I brought my work to a master's master. She had studied in Japan. Some of > you might know her as a sculptor, Joy Brown. She said you haven't gone far > enough. You need to work more. I went off took her advice and my work got much > better. My pots came spinning from my heart into my hands into the clay. This > is my advice is to Joan. Paint more. Here, Here! Joni does have POTENTIAL! She has mastered music but, not painting. I did the "Van Gogh" self portrait thing when I was 21. And to put it in her own words... "Formula artwork for...boring the old man is snoring". Let me put it in this context: I love the song "A Song for Sharon" & "Harry's House/Centerpiece". Joni painted images of New York City in my head. There was a mood to that. This past spring I went to Manhattan for the first time in my life. The mood of that city was everything she put into those songs; or she influenced my interpretation so much that that was the only way I could experience the city. Her paintings don't do that. They're nice to look at but they don't draw you into an experience. She has on the other hand, started to do that with her photography & videos. The "Come In From The Cold" video is the best piece of art I've seen her do. I think she'll get there but, she may have to shift her gift for writting into the painting mode to get the most out of it. Marilyn > -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:08:17 -0400 From: "Marsha" Subject: Re: joni's paintings About Joni's "mediocrity" as a painter, Jerry says: >I have known and been close to 2 true artistic geniuses, both painters. One is a >close friend of mine here in St. Pete, a well known painter and teacher. He loves >Joni's music as much as I do. But his comment was exactly the same when he saw >the new paintings on TTT. He has seen them on all the other cd's, also. This mediocrity of skill I would kill for... My fantasy is to have framed lithographs (oh heck, make it the ORIGINALS, since this is a fantasy) of the Clouds self-portrait hanging alongside TTT in an honored place in my home. A thirty year span of Joni's work in those two gorgeous renderings of her mug, are my favorites of hers at the moment. I think all her self-portraits are the best of her works. The kitties come second. Marsha, no artist, but has an eye ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:24:34 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Joni vs. SOHO To be fair, My critique has been based on some of the greatest artists of this and the last century. When I go to the galleries in SOHO, Joni's work is more appealing than many of the paintings I see. - -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:27:53 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Title track of TTT Don Rowe wrote: > > >What? I get the pun, I guess . . . But what does Joni Mitchell have to > >do with "peddling steel guitars"? This makes no sense to me. She is > >now a sales person for pedal steels? She is pushing steel guitars as > if > >they are a new instrument she just invented? I don't get it . . . > > > Well as Brian Eno once wrote ... "I can't see the lines I used to think > I could read between." Maybe that's what I'm doing here. But it seems > a propos for a self-confessed "runaway from the record biz." > > >Do we know that it was *not* an oversight by some stupid schlep who was > >proofreading while knowing nothing about music? Do we *know* that it > >was meant as a terrible and obtuse pun by Ms. Mitchell herself? It > >seems so below her . . . but on the other hand, considering the lower > >quality of the lyrics of the album, maybe she lost her mind and did > this > >silly thing with peddle steel. I don't believe, however. > > > It's the consistency that struck me. Had the credits had some "pedal" > and some "peddle", I'd be more inclined to think of it as the oversight > of an uninformed proof-reader. Of course, once again, is the glass half > empty or half full? > > I will, however, take exception to the "lower quality" characterization > of the lyrics. I've said a couple of times that I don't find the lyrics > as "literary" or "eloquent" as those we've come to expect -- but the > writing is very effective and to-the-point, if more spartan and > simplistic. If you will, less Dickens and more Hemingway ... > > Has Joni lost her mind? Well afterall, she is the "dotty cat lady" -- > not that there's anything wrong with that ... ;-) > > Don Rowe You are such a good sport when I seem so nasty when I write--when I re-read my posts, they seem a little too biting in some places. I should have used one of those smiley face thangs after the bit about the lyrics being not up to snuff. I do think the lyrics are not up to her usual standards but you bring up a great point and comparison to Hemingway and I hear what you are saying. On the other hand, your explanation for "peddle steel guitar" is specious and, with all due respect, misguided. Come on--do you really, really, really think that she buried that *one* obtuse pun in the credits because she was commenting on the record biz? She just wrote a whole song about it, she named the album after the song, the "peddle" pun is so below her, it is ridiculous. She has never done anything like this before, why would she do it now? It is so far-fetched and out of character . . . As for some of the CD books containing "pedal" and some contain "peddle" as proof of an oversight, but all the books containing "peddle" as proof of pun. Maybe the oversight of the proofreader wasn't pointed out to anyone until the initial run was done--and all of those books *had* to go out with the original shipment. Until there is a second pressing of the book, "peddle" will remain. Maybe they didn't the expense of a Joni Mitchell release warranted a new printing of misspelled material. Howard M - -- Howard Motyl Producer, MPI Teleproductions 16101 South 108th Avenue Orland Park, IL 60462 708-873-3190 708.873.3177 Fax http://www.mpimedia.com "Anytime you have the opportunity to accomplish something and you don't, you are wasting your time on this earth." Roberto Clemente ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:35:15 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's take on her art In a message dated 10/22/98 6:59:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, messling@enter.net writes: << I'm laughably ignorant about art, but I like Joni's stuff because it's just real purdy, and that's enough. >> I consider myself neither ignorant nor especially well-educated about art; I've spent plenty of afternoons at the Art Institute of Chicago and one glorious morning at Musee D'Orse (my French spelling ain't so good) followed by an afternoon at the Louvre. I like Joni's art for what I think it is, but if I were asked whether she could make it solely as a painter (go ahead, ask me...) I'd have to tell her: Don't give up your night job. Paul I Remember, you all silently assented to Terry's no-flames policy in the art discussion NP: Shades of Scarlett Conquering ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 13:43:32 EDT From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's take on her art this was a great post kakki. ive not had time to jump in the fray on the art work because im counting album votes. ive not really looked at her painting in comprison to other famous painters. ive only looked at it in terms of her own life and the completion of certain cycles. to that end, i am very happy she is painting because it makes sense when seen in light of her total life view. and i clearly see a happier joni in the ttt spread over the ti spread. unrelated, any one notice the warm chill that blew onto the list this morning? pj ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #431 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?