From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #412 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, October 12 1998 Volume 03 : Number 412 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Orlando@jmdl.com -Tampa@jmdl.com Sunrise@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Subject: Re: inapropriate covers [Dmascall@aol.com] chinese cafe [Evian ] RE: Janet did "Got Till It's Gone"NJC ["wallykai" ] JM's instrument;jazz [Thomas Ross ] a coupla things 2 [Hassan Zubairi ] Re: Rolling Stone, etc. ["Deb Messling" ] Joni on Much More Music (again) [Anne Madden ] Ciggies (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] TTT thoughts and questions [Steve Dulson ] Re: fresh air (NJC) [Bounced Message ] disappointing!! [Bounced Message ] HE.LP- questions about MD show [Bounced Message ] I'm back / need JM tour infor [Bounced Message ] Re: disappointing!! ["Steven A. Blue" ] Joni on AOL [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Re: Joni on AOL ["Don Rowe" ] Re: BarBearUh's post (NJC) [LRFye@aol.com] Re: fresh air (NJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: Joni on AOL [Brian Gross ] Corita's good news (NJC) [Thomas Ross ] Re: TTT thoughts and questions ["Kakki" ] BarBearUh Trashing [Howard Motyl ] Re: accolades and honors.... [AzeemAK@aol.com] my rambling TTT thoughts ["John T. Folden" ] joni's place in the record stores ["Deb Messling" ] [none] [Bounced Message ] NJC A very late post on an old thread [Bounced Message ] Re: NJC A very late post on an old thread [catman ] RE: joni's place in the record stores [trxschwa ] Joni in NYC record stores [Leenycas@aol.com] Re: Ciggies (NJC) [Marilune@aol.com] Book for Trade ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Some JC, some NJC. ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] NJC: How Many Blondes To Tune A Guitar ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] FW: Another Showcase (njc) [trxschwa ] Re: some NJC. ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Re: some NJC ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Re: NJC: How Many Blondes To Tune A Guitar [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Anna (aaahna) [Helen Gill ] Re: Anna (aaahna) ["Kakki" ] Re: attitude & so forth (jc) ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 03:11:51 EDT From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: Subject: Re: inapropriate covers FredNow@aol.com wrote >How about Frank Sinatra singing Both Sides Now? >Oh, wait ... he actually did. And Joni commented on this one in the interview published in Mojo of Dec 94. She reckoned his arrangers stitched him up with the "folk-rock" arrangement - she would have preferred it arranged more like the rest of "Ol Blue eyes'" material. David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 01:17:18 -0600 From: Evian Subject: chinese cafe > I never knew there was a video for "Chinese Cafe." Can you describe > it? > The video is just of Joni sitting at the piano singing, and Klein is in the background... funny, under the title, it said "1992", so it was either a mistake, or it was some promo done 10 yrs later. At first, I thought it was a clip of a live performance, but once I listened to it, it was just Joni lip-synching. Evian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 04:46:44 -0300 From: "wallykai" Subject: RE: Janet did "Got Till It's Gone"NJC Synchronicity! I just bought Janet's CD. I love especially What about and Free Xone. Janet always seems to make a statement on each one of her albums. And still tey're great party albums too. Joni sounds so sweet, almost like a little girl, on Till it's gone WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:40:16 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: BarBearUh's post In a message dated 10/9/98 3:06:56 AM, skindeep@hdo.net wrote: >Well it looks like the only ones barbara left out >was NJC Chili / David >Trashes everyone and leaves town. >You gotta love it. People, people ... Before we have another explosion on the list, let's try to get some perspective. BarBearUh wasn't "trashing" anyone - she was expressing some strong opinions, yes. She was making points which many others might disagree with, yes. Trashing? No. There is a BIG difference between disagreeing with somebody and "trashing" them. I welcome posts like hers - we are hear to discuss Joni Mitchell and her art, life, attitude etc aren't we? I would hate this list to become a "Joni Mitchell is Wonderful" list, where everyone agrees that everything she does is just great. I didn't agree with everything that BarBearUh wrote, which is exactly why posts like these can be interesting. It offers you a *different* opinion to consider - if you think about it, and still stick to your original ideas then fine, but your horizons might have been broadened just a little in the process. If you have a disagreement about an opinion expressed on the list, go ahead and speak your mind. That's what we are here for! The list should be capable of handling different or even opposite opinions without individual posters feeling threatened or insulted. If it can't, we have a problem. Howard W. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 07:03:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: JM's instrument;jazz two JM subjects: we composers are usually alert to musical colors. Joni's choice of the guitar synth is for this variety - - as well as the ease of changing tunings, but: I've been reminded recently that it's possible for a 'good' instrument to improve your music. Acoustic sounds remain in the main more interesting than those coming from speakers, due to many subtle factors. Moreover, it's possible for a really superior instrument (such as my D'Angelico) to reinstill a respect for notes and music's majesty. This reminder informs not just the performance but the composing. Using the synth may be a symptom, together with smoking, of losing one's song. As I had it in an old song, Seeds of Singing [the Papua New Guinea highland tribes call the soul this]: The devil wants your seeds all your life sell them and you lose your song . . . and if this is at all true, how to get it back? but speaking of devils, an advocate for the other side is: same damn (albeit beautiful) guitar/piano. . . give me a new color! Enter studio techniques and synths. I've gone through this as have many writers these days no doubt. Indeed, some of the crazy you get from too much choice. And it's demonstrable that you can make good music with terrible or 'cheesy' sounds. JS Bach on steeldrums? ok with me. Cage, bless his heart, has freed up much of this for us, as well as an awareness of world music. beyond surprising us or making us laugh, synth sounds can (in the hands of a master such as Stevie Wonder) even make us cry. . . or at least when they're in the service of his singing. But the acoustic sounds in general are more loyal than the rather fickle (immature?) synth sounds of the last 30 yrs or so. Joni item #2 In an interview somewhere she said she wanted to make an album of standards, which she call her roots music. This may surprise many of us, that copping the folk stuff was for 'pin money', as well as the allegation that it's easy. From my point of view, copping the folk stuff is hard, because I grew up not merely listening to jazz, but playing it; in fact it's in the family (mother sings, plays piano; father plays clar/saxophone professionally); so I suspect J's folk roots are deeper than she acknowledges. btw Peter Schikele played the original 'Cool Water' back to back with JM's, on his marvelously wideranging radio show. It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that certain je ne sais quoi! And a tidbit from him: Leonard Sly is the original name of what famous singer associated with the above paragraph? tr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:12:21 +-100 From: Hassan Zubairi Subject: a coupla things 2 Dear Coyotes Catching up on posts yet again (not rehearsing) and just have to comment on few things dealing with TTTTTTTTTTT (sorry, got a bit carried away in my speed to get this done). I decided to listen to TI and NRH this weekend and then listen to TTT. I must say that I really love it - even Lead Balloon: the best way to listen to this song is either dancing in the kitchen or cleaning up your bedroom, it's a stoopid rocker kinda sound and you have to dance like a stoopid rocker. It's more fun that way, and you can really ham up the singing. It works for me... Anyway on a more serious note, if what I have read is true about Joni and Don, then that is sad. Like any friend I would like to know why and try to see if I can help, but yeah, like she will take the advice of a 26 year old... Listening to NRH and TI they seemed like stately homes and TTT seemed like a luxury modern apartment with a view of St Pauls Cathedral. Also JONI'S MOVING FORWARD. Musically, sonically...the last two albums do sound as if they are as she says 'sitting in the Old World Cafe and a truck goes by and you ask yourself,"Did that girl have a little lace in her jeans?"' This is a paraphrase of an actual quote from Q Magazine in 1988 and I haven't read it for years - it's in my own personal JM archive. It's an image that has stuck with me though. And it's moved on from that. TTT is a modern room with a view of the cathedral reflected in the coffee table. Anyhoo... Stay In Touch is a wonderful song: Her delivery is of that of someone so nervous of saying too much, like stating facts would demean (sp?) everything about this newfound relationship and make it sound trivial. I really wanted to hear this song after Wally's conversation with Brian Blade, how he really loved this song. I was disappointed to read the lyric sheets and notice that nothing in it was spectaculal, no really deep feelings emerge in the writing. Then I listened to it and I cried and cried. She just simply acts the text so damn well - the emotion is stronger than the words. It's like an acting exercise where every word must mean something to you, every pause, every breath, even the volume of your voice ( I know that this makes it sound merely like an acting exercise, but there is so much more in her delivery that all you can feel is truth.) She basically gave herself a limited text and filled it right to the bottom. Amazing. That is the power of the woman. This was meant to be a quick note. We open a week on Tuesday!!! Arghhh. Stay In Touch Much Joni Jamie Jake ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 07:51:31 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Rolling Stone, etc. Did it occur to anyone else that the "Juan" mentioned in "No Apologies" is a code word for "Jann?" I don't trust my memory anymore, but I think I might even remember a quote from Jann Wenner to the effect that "Joni Mitchell thinks I'm the devil." > Mr. Daly, however, seems to despise > one song, "Lead Balloon," calling it "an ill-advised rocker" and "the > album's sole blemish." It's interesting to note here that this song is > rumoured to be about Jann Wenner, the creator of Rolling Stone mag. Is it > a coincidence that their reviewer hates this song? Perhaps. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:02:41 -0700 From: Anne Madden Subject: Joni on Much More Music (again) Yesterday Much More Music was full of Joni videos. One video they showed yesterday was My Secret Place from Chalk Mark with Peter Gabriel. When you watch these videos and listen to the songs you can't help but wonder if the songs had been given decent radio and TV air play years ago sales could really have taken off. Still, it's great to see her finally get her due, at least on Canadian TV and I'm sure as a result, she is going to make a lot more new fans. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:24:24 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Ciggies (NJC) Mark wrote: >I'll supply the American Spirits! :-) Geez...if these list wars go on, *I'M* going to have to take up smoking! Just an observation...some of my best friends on the list are people that I fought with publically and privately when I was a newbie. FWIW. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:33:28 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: TTT thoughts and questions This past weekend I finally got to listen to the TTT CD on my home system. 1) I noticed that in the Harlem In Havana opening you can hear the screams of the people on the "double ferris wheel". Cool! 2) No Apologies still suffers a major verse/chorus and verse 1/ rest of song disconnect for me. 3) Once again, whos Anna? 4) Love Puts On A New Face is really growing on me. Now, I may be dumb, but what exactly does the French proverb she quotes mean? That each day you see something new in your lover, or your relationship? Or each day you fall in love with someone new? Or...??? 5) Facelift is so much warmer on the CD than in previous versions. 6) I love the package. Way to go, Robbie C! My very best to you, ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:36:38 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: fresh air (NJC) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 16:33:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Glenn Plotner Scott/Jen/Anna Spring wrote: >>Wow. I've recently joined the list after about a 2 year hiatus - and what do I find? A lot of crazy bickering. I hope it all calms down soon - let's talk about JONI!<< I think perhaps we should all take turns unsubscribing from the list and then rejoining under pseudonyms. Then we could do a great birthday card where Joni could attempt to match the former list member with their nom de plume. Robert Glenn Ignatz Plotner-Mouse II == Thought Experiments, The Metaphysical Think Tank http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/thoughtexperiments ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:35:46 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: disappointing!! From: "Dave Doherty" Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:57:50 -0400 Hi all, I moslty lurk on the sidelines here at the list,and I thoroughly enjoy reading everyone's thoughts,comments and opinions.It pains me to read the recent postings where list members are bickering and sending less than flattering e-mails to each other. Listen,everyone is different,we come from countries all over the globe,we have our different points of view on a whole range of topics and subjects, for god's sake lets get back to the one constant that unites us all on this list, the total appreciation and admiration for the music and talent of ''Joni Mitchell''. ''I am as constant as a Northern star''. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:39:03 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: HE.LP- questions about MD show From: Green51976@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 04:20:49 EDT I SCORED!! ...on tickets for the college park show that is. i got through to ticketmaster at 12:05 on saturday and managed to get two FRONT ROW SEATS. this is a wonderful blessing of some divine magnitude. i also have tickets for the nyc show, but they are in the mezzanine and i will feel so distant. this college park thing has imparted healing to the wounds caused by the madison square garden incident. now to the questions-- how am i going to get there? ive looked at maps and such, but i really need some down-to-earth instructions. basically i need to get from philly to the show. can anyone help me? also, what time should i leave? and where is seat #13? can i get a seating chart online somewhere? what if i am behind a pole or something? it all just seems to good to be true. so i need advice. i am ecstatic about the tickets, believe me, but i need to deal with the practical stuff now. help me out please. i have loved joni as my favorite musician since 9th grade and i have never seen her. i want this to go smoothly. i really, really do. please help. glowing yet worried, andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:38:17 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: I'm back / need JM tour infor From: "Claud SansSoucie" Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:21:06 -0400 Hello Jmdlers Just got back from my two week and 4500 mile long vacation. I had a blast but was disappointed with the radio stations most of the time. Did however hear Crazy Cries of Love on FM 90 in Amarillo, TX on Friday 10/9 around 4:30 p.m. What a great station! It was a very uplifting moment on my trip. Now, since I haven't had time to read through all my digests etc.. that have accumulated (HELP!) I was wondering if anyone can give me the scoop on the Maryland JM/Dylan concert. I don't think I can swing NY (from a = time and money standpoint). Questions: Does anyone have extra tickets for the Maryland show? Where can I order tickets? How much are they and what's the venue like? Who's going? Will there be a meeting of JMDLers? Also I still need to get 2-3 tickets for the Van Gogh show. Are they still available? Does anyone know? Lots of questions - I'd appreciate any info. When I left I hadn't heard anything about a Maryland date. I would be so psyched if I could get to see her there. Claud - glad to be back! Dave and Claudia SanSoucie (and Monk the Dog) email: dvsclaud@worldnet.att.net tele: (717) 854-7171 Web Page: http://home.att.net/~dvsclaud ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:58:51 -0000 From: "Steven A. Blue" Subject: Re: disappointing!! I'll second that motion - -----Original Message----- From: Bounced Message To: joni@smoe.org Date: Monday, October 12, 1998 3:43 PM Subject: disappointing!! >From: "Dave Doherty" >Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 10:57:50 -0400 > >Hi all, > > I moslty lurk on the sidelines here at the list,and I >thoroughly enjoy reading everyone's thoughts,comments and opinions.It >pains me to read the recent postings where list members are bickering >and sending less than flattering e-mails to each other. > > Listen,everyone is different,we come from countries all over the >globe,we have our different points of view on a whole range of topics >and subjects, for god's sake lets get back to the one constant that >unites us all on this list, the total appreciation and admiration for >the music and talent of ''Joni Mitchell''. > > ''I am as constant as a Northern star''. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:18:14 -0700 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Joni on AOL From the interview/comments: >>It's about nervously spilling a drink on a boyfriend she's trying to impress, noting in detail ''the tequila trickling down his business suit.'' Sheesh! Ain't nuttin' nervous about the lyrics on "Lead Balloon!" Didn't he read the first line? "Kiss my ass" is a decent tip off that for the overall pace and theme of the song. Unless, of course, played backwards it says: "I'm so sorry, I'm so clumsy, flog with your dog's dead tail." MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:41:50 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Joni on AOL Mary Grace writes ... >From the interview/comments: > >>>It's about nervously spilling a drink on a boyfriend >she's trying to impress, noting in detail ''the tequila trickling down his >business suit.'' > Well it certainly is refreshing to see that e-mail isn't the only written word medium being misinterpreted out there ... relax all, just trying to lighten things up a bit here! ;-) Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:51:19 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: BarBearUh's post (NJC) BarBearUh wrote a trashy post? Darn, I must have missed it! Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:20:08 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: fresh air (NJC) From: LRFye@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:54:06 EDT Robert Glenn Ignatz Plotner-Mouse II wrote: > I think perhaps we should all take turns unsu.bscribing from the list > and then rejoining under pseudonyms. Then we could do a great birthday > card where Joni could attempt to match the former list member with > their nom de plume. LOVE IT! Let's do it! Lori in San Antonio, thinking hard about a new name ... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:17:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Joni on AOL - ---Mary Grace wrote: > > From the interview/comments: > > >>It's about nervously spilling a drink on a boyfriend > she's trying to impress, noting in detail ''the tequila trickling down his > business suit.'' > > Sheesh! Ain't nuttin' nervous about the lyrics on "Lead Balloon!" Didn't he > read the first line? "Kiss my ass" is a decent tip off that for the overall > pace and theme of the song. Good point, MG And on the subject of "Kiss my ass," the cover photos of "Hits" ans "Misses" - someone said they were intended to send the messages to the record industry of: Drop Dead and Kiss My Ass Any other interpretations? Brian np: Leaving Las Vegas (big boo hoo) === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 15:23:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Corita's good news (NJC) some of you may know Sister Corita, the West Coast graphic artist who often incorporates text. She's a tasty word-gatherer and she couches them deliciously to the eye. Here's a sample I found yesterday, on a lime background with 2 greenleaf shapes overlaid. The hand-written words are white on the lime and red-umber when they cross onto the green. I keep her line division. * that's what's needed don't you see? That! Nothing else matters half so much. to reassure one another. To answer each other. Perhaps only you can listen to me and not laugh. Everyone has, inside himself. . .what shall I call it? A piece of good news! Everyone is. . a very great, very important character! Yes, that's what we have to tell them up there Every man must be persuaded - - even if he's in rags - - that he's immensely, immensly [sic] important! Everyone must respect him; and make him respect himself too. They must listen to him attentively. Don't stand on top of him, don't stand in his light. But look at him with deference. Give him great, great hopes, he needs them. . especially if he's young. Spoil him! Yes, make him grow proud! Ugobetti [who's that?] A piece of good news ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:34:33 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: TTT thoughts and questions Steve wrote: >This past weekend I finally got to listen to the TTT CD on my home >system. >3) Once again, whos Anna? Joni already says that Sophia is Sophia Loren. Marsha says Anna is Betsy <;-D>, I mean, Anna Maria Alberghetti. I'd wager that Anna is Anna Magnani. Italian jmdlers - what do you say? Kakki NP: Facelift ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:59:08 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: BarBearUh Trashing I read some of what Barbara wrote in her review of TTT and I have to agree wholeheartedly with one of her suggestions: JM should get a producer. I work in the film/video business and it often helps to have another trusted voice to say "no" or "try it this way" or "wow this worked for me before let's try it here". Another producer does not mean that JM would not shine through but that she would shaped to shine through a different glass. A producer is not about dictating but about nurturing and growing--and that is what is exciting for the performer/director, the growth, the reaching new heights or going places that he/she has never thought of, let alone explored. When I first saw the credit list for TTT, I was half-expecting to see Larry Klein as producer and was glad that I didn't. (Of the three Shawn Colvin new material albums (Cover Girl is all, well, covers), her weakest is Fat City, produced by Larry Klein, on which JM appears. The arrangements sound very Joni, which isn't bad, but Shawn is not Joni and shouldn't be made to sound like Joni) But I was also equally disappointed to see that JM was listed as the only producer. Oh, if there were only another head to push a reluctant Joni in one direction, to pull her back from another. Alas, when I finally heard the album, I still wanted the producer. (Did she produce Harlem in Havana herself?) Daniel Lanois took Emmylou to new places. Mitchell Froom worked wonders for Suzanne Vega and others. Either of these could have worked beautifully with Joni. Another point in a sort of defense of Barbara. They lyrics of TTT are not great--I know I have said this before. They are not nuanced, textured, deep. They aren't even very poetic. Take your favorite JM album and compare the lyrics, and you'll see the difference. I *like* TTT but I do not think it is great. Howard M NP: Jane Siberry "Maria" "Anytime you have the opportunity to accomplish something and you don't, you are wasting your time on this earth." Roberto Clemente ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:31:56 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: accolades and honors.... In a message dated 10/4/98 10:52:59PM, RickieLee1@aol.com writes: << but that hardly means that we need to support rude, unconscionable behavior like refusing to do an f-ing encore because some poor slob had the temerity to yawn in the middle of one of her songs. >> I might have missed something here, but does anybody actually KNOW that Joni didn't do an encore simply because someone yawned? It sounds like one of those myths in the making, like Mama Cass choking to death on a ham sandwich (she didn't) or indeed Rolling Stone voting HOSL worst album of the year (as I think we all know by now, they didn't). Unless we know for sure, it seems pretty fatuous to get our knickers in a twist about it. My twopenn'orth Azeem in London, having just got off the phone from a two-and-a-half hour conversation with my dear friend Sue! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:42:20 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: my rambling TTT thoughts > -----Original Message----- > From: Howard Motyl > Another point in a sort of defense of Barbara. They lyrics of TTT are > not great--I know I have said this before. They are not nuanced, > textured, deep. They aren't even very poetic. Take your favorite JM > album and compare the lyrics, and you'll see the difference. I've heard quite a few people on and off list mentioning problems with the lyrics or the music. Frankly, as a whole, I don't see a problem with them at all. It seems to me that Joni was taking a simplistic approach with both the lyrics and the music. I was driving through a local nature park the other day with this album blaring away and accompanied by the beauty of such a sunny, fall day (leaves changing, wind slightly blowing, etc) TTT seemed like a wonderful record for the moment. The way the words were written, the way Joni is singing - it seems like she was carrying on a conversation, telling an old friend about the recent events in her life. ...and the music, particularly the keyboard wash on most of the songs, seems really lush, inviting and, well - rather Un-Joni-like. I'd almost label it New Age on par with Enya (though I'm sure Joni would cringe at the comparison). I know I'm rambling but point being (if I even have one) is that music doesn't have to look nuanced, textured, deep or even poetic to be any of those things. Listening to this album I feel more 'in touch' with Joni than I ever have. TI might have been a better artistic achievement but TTT is a better personal one. For the first time in a LONG time I felt like Joni was speaking to me rather than above me, from her soap box. This is not to say it's perfect. Casting a critical voice to the mix I really do dislike that lead, lead, lead, lead balloon chorus (though I have no problems w/the song in general). I also get really annoyed with that "nice kitty kitty' in the title track (though I still love the song). Ok, those are just personal nits... The only true failing I see in the whole album is No Apologies. The focus of that track seems all over the map. It's only common thread seems to be blaming men for all the bad things of the world. Somehow I can't quite believe Joni would be that narrow minded so maybe I'm missing something here. It's not my fave of hers but I think it's near the top somewhere...ask me again in 2 years. ;-) Bottom line, it's all just my opinion but: nuanced, textured, deep, poetic - TTT is nothing if not all of these things. I think it was well worth the wait. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:15:18 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: joni's place in the record stores I'm wondering where most record stores place their Joni Mitchell albums. Pop? Folk? My mall store puts her in Folk, and although I think Joni doth protest too much about her roots *not* being in folk music, I can't see that folk makes sense as a category for her music today. I complained to the record store guy, and he said he only does what the label tells him to. So Reprise is marketing her as Folk?? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 15:33:39 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: [none] Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 15:49:34 -0400 From: Kevin_E_Licht@email.whirlpool.com (Kevin E Licht) My wife Kimberly and I will be at the Indy show. Section B, Row 3, Seats 11 & 12. Looking forward to a great time! We caught the Gorge shows for our honeymoon, and now this. We can hardly believe it. We're thinking of hitting Nashville too! What the heck, you only go around once. Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:03:03 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: NJC A very late post on an old thread From: "Nixon" Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:25:46 +0200 << One of the things I found difficult on my US was that the notes all looked the same-same colour and size. Here each note is a different colouir and size-saves mistakes being made!!! >> >From the perspective of the other side (of the pond, I guess), Colin, I found it difficult at first to use both English and French money because the denominations are not prominent. Obviously, they rely on the differentiation in design and color to tell them apart, but if you are not accustomed to that or know which is which, it's harder to find the numbers. I find U.S. dollars easier to use, and I'm sure it's merely a nurtured skill, because the denominations are bigger and consistently placed. >Paul I Fascinating. Aaaaabbbbsssoollllluuuttlllyyyyyyy FAScinating! Really I mean it. This is high-level anthropology. I LOVE this kind of stuff. Initial conclusions from this exchange are that art and tactile experience is more important to Europeans than it is to Americans, who are happier to play a simple numbers game. The Brit or Froggie is conditioned to look for the colours and pictures, the American is brought up to just keep the figures in mind. No wonder America is the richest nation on the planet, while us Europeans are just a bunch of commie fag subversive artists (remember Kenny Everett Colin?), begging in rags for government subsidised arts projects. Love to all, Tube ____________________________________________ Get a Life - Get a Romelife! - www.pronet.it/romelife ____________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:15:40 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC A very late post on an old thread Yes-Kenny Everett is till being shown on cable. I now think he was outrageous for his time(79 on) as he is shocking even now. His Cupid Stunt character in particular! I didn't appreciate him back then but do today, he was on the ball and had a go at hypocracisy and govts. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 23:30:51 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: joni's place in the record stores Debs, In every store I frequent (and there are many!), Joni is always racked in the "rock/pop" section. HMV, among others, do have a "folk" section, but to my knowledge I've never seen Joni under "folk"..... Jason (in the UK) Deb Messling wrote: > > I'm wondering where most record stores place their Joni Mitchell > albums. Pop? Folk? > > My mall store puts her in Folk, and although I think Joni doth > protest too much about her roots *not* being in folk music, I can't > see that folk makes sense as a category for her music today. I > complained to the record store guy, and he said he only does what the > label tells him to. So Reprise is marketing her as Folk?? > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:36:34 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: RE: joni's place in the record stores > -----Original Message----- > From: Deb Messling > I'm wondering where most record stores place their Joni Mitchell > albums. Pop? Folk? It seems to be different for several stores in my area. Media Play has her under Pop/Rock. NRM used to have her under Pop but since the release of TTT have moved her into ADULT CONTEMPORARY! (Should Joni or I be insulted at this move???) I've never even browsed the AC area before let alone purchased something from there... I always pictured that as the area for Barry Mannilow, etc... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:52:01 EDT From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: That "Boo Hoo" line again (JC) Trivia time once more . Am I the only person to think that Joni says the OUT in "Without at least on big boohoo" in "Man from Mars" with a distinctly Canadian accent? David Mascall NP (TTT - or perhaps NBPTD (now being played to death)) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:18:17 -0800 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Kate & Anna McGarrigle (NJC) for those who are interested ... KATE & ANNA McGARRIGLE begin a short Tour today! HomePage: http://www.mcgarrigles.com/ Tour Information: http://www.mcgarrigles.com/tour_info.html DATE VENUE CITY/STATE Mon 10-12-98 Festival Place Sherwood Park, Alberta Tues 10-13-98 Jack Singer Concert Hall Calgary, Alberta Wed 10-14-98 Port Theatre Nanaimo, B.C. Thur 10-15-98 Massey Theatre New Westminster, B.C. Sat 10-17-98 Juan de Fuca Port Angeles, Wa. Sun 10-18-98 Broadway Theatre Seattle, Wa. Tues 10-20-98 Aladdin Theatre Portland, Oregon Thur 10-22-98 The Palms Playhouse Davis, California Fri 10-23-98 Great American Music Hall * San Francisco, California Sat 10-24-98 Great American Music Hall * San Francisco, California Sun 10-25-98 Palookaville * Santa Cruz, California Tue 10-27-98 Largo Los Angeles, California Wed 10-28-98 Largo Los Angeles, California Sat 11-07-98 Town Hall * New York, New York Sun 11-08-98 The Painted Bride Center Philadelphia, Pa. Mon 11-09-98 Birchmere Alexandria, Va. Tues 11-10-98 Ram's Head Annapolis, Md. Sun 11-15-98 Mountain Stage Charlestown, W.V. 'Tentative' Sat 01-30-99 Saunders Theatre, Harvard U. Cambridge, Ma. * Co-Bill w/LOUDON WAINWRIGHT check 'em out, you won't be disappointed. i'll be at the NYC & Philadelphia shows. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- P.S. please contact me if you record any of their Radio Appearances. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:32:16 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: RE: joni's place in the record stores I have hit about 10+ stores since the album has been released. The majority just stick her in the Pop/Rock section. But one local store had her in only one place and that was in the Lilith Faire Artist section. I the preceded to tell the owner that Joni did not and also seems quite adamant about not playing Lilith Faire. He proceeded to tell me she played at least three of the dates on the last tour and was one of the biggest supporters of the tour. Okay? Another had her in the Classic Artist section along with new releases. Another said they bought one copy and they still have it in their store but don't know where. Whatever? Borders in North Austin sold something like 30 copies the first 5 days. Best Buy bought only three and they are right next door to Borders (go figure). But I am disappointed that their have not been more altars to Joni in the record stores. I have to say Mingus got more promotion then TTT. Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:29:26 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: joni's place in the record stores all the big stores i've been in here in ny have her in rock 'n pop on release day, after checking a couple of other chains, seeing no special displays or placement, i went to the joni section in tower bway & 4th. the new album wasn't there. i was pissed! so i went and checked the new releases again and found just 4 or 5 cds with a lot of empty space around. so i'm fantasizing that there was at least a rush on the cd at that store... folk would make no sense at all for joni at this point. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:45:23 EDT From: Leenycas@aol.com Subject: Joni in NYC record stores Just got back from a trip down to NYC this weekend to see my oldest daughter, who is a grad student at NYU. We went to the Virgin superstore in Union Square and, when I first walked in, I couldn't find TTT anywhere. However, I did locate it over on the wall under Virgin's Top Thirty, complete with listening station--it is at #9 in that store. A guy was doing some listening and when he finished I told him that I thought it was good--he agreed, but didn't grab a copy. I had to resist the impulse to chase after him with a copy of the CD for his listening pleasure. Also checked out the Tower record store in the Village, it is at #7 . Both stores were very well stocked. I wanted to check out a few stores uptown, but I had both my daughter's so exhausted with checking out sights all over Manhattan that anything out of the way would have been cruel and unusual punishment. The kids just couldn't take it any more. Colleen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:20:07 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Ciggies (NJC) In a message dated 10/12/98 8:30:33 AM, steve@psitech.com wrote: >Geez...if these list wars go on, *I'M* going to have to take up smoking! >Just an observation...some of my best friends on the list are people >that I fought with publically and privately when I was a newbie. FWIW. fun to do but don't get addicted. take it from me. i'm not addicted yet anyone. it just feels SOOOOOO cool. that's the addiction for me anyone. - -mariana ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:58:53 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Book for Trade I looking to trade my copy of a book called "The Rolling Thunder Revue" for a factory-issued VHS/NTSC copy of "Night Ride Home" or "Refuge of the Roads". (No dubs, thank you.) "The Rolling Thunder Revue" loosely follows and documents the dylan/baez/mcquinn/mitchell/etc. It was written by none other than Sam Shephard. - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:08:26 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Some JC, some NJC. JC: Tonight, the local college station/National Public Radio affiliate will including a three-songs-deep look at TTT. This is living! NJC: There's a new movie out with Robin Williams called something like "What Dreams May Come". It's almost as visually creative as the "Fifth Element" but it has much, much more depth. So if you like movies that are visually rich, and present ideas about love, death, family, the afterlife, or depression, this is your picture. Yum, I ate it up and I will be attending it again in a real movie theater soon. - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:12:43 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC: How Many Blondes To Tune A Guitar Answer: Six blondes: One to hold the tuning peg and five more to turn the guitar end over end. - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:06:31 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: Joni Cover/Ciggies - ---Speaking of smoking ciggies, Id love to hear Joni sing, "When Smoke Gets In Your Eyes," and Id like to hear what she might do with "Birdland" or something from Michael Frank's album, "The Art of Tea:" Nightmoves, Eggplant, Monkey See - Monkey Do, St. Elmo's Fire, I Don't Know Why I'm So Happy I'm Sad, Jive, Popsicle Toes, Sometimes I Just Forget To Smile, Mr. Blue ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:57:30 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: FW: Another Showcase (njc) see the announcement below... kay ashley and i have seen this woman a number of times, including twice in one weekend a couple of weeks ago! she's really powerful and fascinating, i've bought all of her cds and they are in high-rotation at chez patrick, doing battle with ttt and other jm, katell keineg, lauryn hill, ayktmbm. the viveza ensemble's great tango album, as well. i've only seen joy askew with a four-piece band once, and it was a great show, (and i'm very picky, actually). i haven't been able to find out if there's a cover for this show, but i'm a definite and i'll bet kay is as well. i'd love if it other ny jmdlers would join us, email me privately. i think we should plan to meet when the doors open and see if we can score a big good table. patrick - np - still lauryn - --------- Hello all... For those of you that couldn't make the Monday show, you have another chance: Joy Askew with her band Friday, October 16th at SHINE 285 West Broadway at Canal Street 9:00 pm (doors 8:30) Thanks! Hope to see you all there! Chris Kornmann Art Director CMJ New Music Report (516) 498-3137 chrisk@cmj.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:21:54 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: some NJC. At 09:08 PM 10/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >NJC: There's a new movie out with Robin Williams called something like >"What Dreams May Come". It's almost as visually creative as the "Fifth >Element" but it has much, much more depth. So if you like movies that >are visually rich, and present ideas about love, death, family, the >afterlife, or depression, this is your picture. Yum, I ate it up and I >will be attending it again in a real movie theater soon. Jim, Au contraire! With the exception of about 15 visually creative minutes, the film began to feel like a bad acid trip, and I thought the screenplay was a mess! I haven't seen anything worth writing about here since "Buffallo 66." Feel free to email me privately for my review. -Julie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:29:37 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: some NJC >At 09:08 PM 10/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >NJC: There's a new movie out with Robin Williams called something like >"What Dreams May Come". It's almost as visually creative as the "Fifth >Element" but it has much, much more depth. So if you like movies that >are visually rich, and present ideas about love, death, family, the >afterlife, or depression, this is your picture. Yum, I ate it up and I >will be attending it again in a real movie theater soon. Jim, Au contraire! With the exception of about 15 visually creative minutes, the film began to feel like a bad acid trip, and I thought the screenplay was a mess! I haven't seen anything worth writing about here since "Buffallo 66." Feel free to email me privately for my review. -Julie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 20:40:08 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: NJC: How Many Blondes To Tune A Guitar Just remember to be careful, or the strings will break in your face! Mark, blond guitar player At 9:12 PM -0400 10/12/98, Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: >Answer: Six blondes: > >One to hold the tuning peg and five more to turn the guitar end over >end. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:58:08 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: attitude & so forth (jc) hey people, anyone who saw barbara's post as a dis-a-thon really missed the grace of it. she took some time with it, and made some hardly arguable points. very few of the naysayers have bothered to respond to elements in the post. i think she shows a great respect to the list, putting that much effort into being clear, when it was bound to be unpopular with so many. i say this even though i disagree with much of her post. i just can't get enough of most of the album. i've some difficulties in common with other listers, but 30 years from now i intend to think of 1998 fondly as her early vg8 period. i'll tackle one of barbara's thoughts, though. she wrote: >i also have to say i don't think the artwork is so great. i loved her paintings on mingus and wild things, and most on TI. these paintings don't do much for me and seem much more amateurish than previous works. i also just went to the van gogh, so shoot me. i don't think they're amateurish at all, i think the craft is as strong as ever, but i sense where barbara's coming from. joni's paintings, especially on the albums barb mentioned, have always reflected her appreciation of what's happening in the art world. this is typical of good artists. how can you truly expect to create something truly new if you don't know what others have done? and building on other's work is a possible path to the new. she's quoted abstract expressionists, realists, impressionists, the group of 5 (canadian, a sort of distorted landscape realism, and a big influence on joni, esp the ti landscapes) and finally in a great artistic joke, van gogh on the cover of ti. and the 'wild things' paintings referred to technique trends of the 80s, while being very original (and very good). the ttt paintings, for the most part, appear more naive. painting adorable pictures of cats is usually the work of a craftsperson, not an artist. but i love these paintings. she still wears her art-appreciation on her sleeve. the cover picture, in color and somewhat in brushstroke, refers to peasant portraits by camille pissaro, an impressionist who never matched van gogh, monet or renoir, but whose works are worth emulating (as joni has). the idle/idyll painting, that made up the backdrop for the westcoast tour, is maxfield parrish as well as an 18th century painting owned by the louvre. i can't remember the title or artist right now, but i suspect you all have seen the image of a nude young man on a rock facing right with his arms around his knees. seems to be a favorite in viatical ads these days. other ttt paintings have references, but still the works are more personal and sometimes more blunt. i see a letting go. some of her heroes never dealt with the subject matter she wanted to paint. the impressionists rarely painted cats, for some reason and nor did o'keefe. cassatt fit them in among her children, sometimes. but, joni says 'these are worthy subjects.' and the romance paintings, the face-on of donald, the hand on the knee, the long view of joni by the river, these are more blunt, more amateurish, even, and i think more honest than anything she's done in years. sweet, and completely non-ironic. and completely outside of the subject matter of the artists she reveres. that's where i see a huge growth. never before has her art truly said, ' i don't give a fuck, i'll paint what i want'. never. there you go, worshipful joni content for voicers, lurkers, et al. patrick silence ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:17:08 +1000 (EST) From: Helen Gill Subject: Re: Anna (aaahna) > >3) Once again, whos Anna? > > Joni already says that Sophia is Sophia Loren. Marsha says Anna is Betsy > <;-D>, I mean, Anna Maria Alberghetti. I'd wager that Anna is Anna Magnani. > Italian jmdlers - what do you say? Well, me not being in on all the famous anna's in the world, just took the easy path and decided, oh its just another of her cats (anna from venus?)...well maybe it is. what are the words again ..."anna, wild and deer/dear" ? could be a cat! oh well. helly. (pseudonym....umm...oh gee...umm) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:21:22 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Anna (aaahna) >Well, me not being in on all the famous anna's in the world, just took the >easy path and decided, oh its just another of her cats (anna from >venus?)...well maybe it is. >what are the words again ..."anna, wild and deer/dear" ? could be a cat! Oh no, no Helly, Joni's cats are named Pansy, Nietzche, El Cafe and Mojo. (Source: ancient thread and KCRW interview 3/98). I actually did a search on Magnani and found some possible correlations. She did two movies with "wild" in the title and also did one titled "Mamma Roma" about a woman who left behind a career in prostitution to reunite with her long-lost child. Hmmmmm...... Kakki NP: Sweet Sucker Dance (When is Joni going to stop harping on Mingus ruining her? We love it now, O.K.? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:53:17 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: attitude & so forth (jc) Patrick wrote: > the impressionists rarely painted cats, for some reason and nor did >o'keefe. cassatt fit them in among her children, sometimes. but, joni >says 'these are worthy >subjects.' and the romance paintings, the face-on of donald, the hand on >the knee, the long view of joni by the river, these are more blunt, more >amateurish, even, and i think more honest than anything she's done in >years. sweet, and completely non-ironic. > >and completely outside of the subject matter of the artists she reveres. > that's where i see a huge growth. never before has her art truly said, ' >i don't give a fuck, i'll paint what i want'. never. Patrick, O.K. I know I'm one of those worshipful ones with respect to Joni. (Please be tolerant of me - I've loved her 3/4ths of my life). I really liked and appreciated your post and would like to know more about the Canadian Group of 5, which I'm unfamiliar with, but curious about as an influence on Joni. I know I've yammered on about actually seeing about 50 of her recent paintings at the tapings and have raved on an on about them. Let me tell you that, although I always thought her music was genius, I thought her art was so-so - until I saw this latest body of work. Needless to say, there is a whole lot more out there than what is in the TTT package. Also, so many of her recent works are created with heavy layers of oil paint. They are almost three-dimensional and the true effect just does not come across in a flat, one-dimensional print. And the subjects and styles are quite diverse. She has created a significant number of "flat" realistic paintings in addition to her most layered Impressionistic ones. Her portraits of Hendrix and Bob Marley were stunning, IMO. Last I knew, the taping will include a glimpse at these paintings. I have no idea if they will "translate" much better on film, but I would like to see more reviews of them after people have had a chance to view them on PPV. Kakki NP: Goodbye Pork Pie Hat ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #412 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?