From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #409 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, October 10 1998 Volume 03 : Number 409 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Orlando@jmdl.com -Tampa@jmdl.com Sunrise@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: jmdler love affair (NJC) [catman ] TTT 12-track promo?, C&S quad mix [jussi ] Re: TTT - recording quality, popping sounds etc [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: jmdler love affair (NJC) [catman ] Re: TTT - recording quality, popping sounds etc [catman ] Re: TTT ["Deb Messling" ] Re: TTT 12-track promo?, C&S quad mix [Mark Domyancich ] important...please read [RickieLee1@aol.com] Joni's sales [Wally Breese ] Re: attitude & so forth [Scott Price ] Re: important...please read [Gellerray@aol.com] Re: Lead Balloon Manifesto [Gellerray@aol.com] Re: Joni in the Austin Chronicle [Mark or Travis ] Farther into the WOMB (NJC) [WombQueen@aol.com] Re: a fond farewell (NJC) [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] New Photos (NJC) [Leslie Mixon ] my reply to a fond farewell[njc and long] ["wallykai" ] Re: New Photos (NJC) [Beverly ] Birthday Card ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: a fond farewell (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: a fond farewell (NJC) [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: a fond farewell (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: a fond farewell (NJC) ["Happy The Man" ] Re: a fond farewell (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Now for some lighter fare... ["Marsha" ] RE: Now for some lighter fare... ["Happy The Man" ] (NJC) Re: Now for some lighter fare... ["Marsha" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 23:43:09 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: jmdler love affair (NJC) Okay- whose using? me or you? I must have missed something or the worlds gone mad. Michael Yarbrough wrote: > Kakki wrote: > > << Warner/Reprise and has immediately put a freeze on all promo for > J, including our puny salaries!>>> > > Maybe they'll downsize that faggot casting director who decided > that over half the male characters should be queers. Like *that's* > believable. It's bad enough that I have to spell my old lady's name > "Sean" all the time; did I really have to go through that disgusting > anal sex NJC thread a few months back, too? (Though the > background research *was* more interesting than I expected it to > be.) > > Freeze my wages?! I deserve a raise you pansy mother-f**kers! > And unless props gets my damn stereo back to me there will be > no more NP tags, on my mother's grave!! > > Cue the sun... > > ;-) > > --Michael - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:44:10 -0700 From: jussi Subject: TTT 12-track promo?, C&S quad mix hello list, I saw this listed at Esprit: JONI MITCHELL Taming The Tiger (Reprise US 12-trk gold recordable CD-R acetate, custom printed disc and studio inlay sleeve, nice) UK 65.00 / $ 105.00 What's the story of the 12th track? I found a copy of the quad mix LP of Court & Spark. It's supposed to play as regular stereo when played on a "conventional" stereo player, but it doesn't sound the same mix as the normal stereo version. I hear occasional instruments where they shouldn't be. Especially the piano in "The Same Situation" - really 'spacy'. The sound reminds me of the "Q sound" feature a couple of years ago, which sank without a trace. Is it just the quad mix parts "leaking through" or what? Has anyone actually heard this in quad? If so, is it as mind-blowing as the inner sleeve suggests? - --jussi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:07:53 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: TTT - recording quality, popping sounds etc In a message dated 10/9/98 5:44:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, haw@ph.ed.ac.uk writes: << I need to listen back to the album to be sure about all of this! >> I hear a lot of it on the title track. (popping, that is) Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:09:01 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: jmdler love affair (NJC) I don't care about the other actors but I want it definately known that I did NOT get paid to write anything at all and I am NOT an actor. I am a real person-well two real people actually- but the least said about that the better. The other one is the one to blame for any postings you don't like. Eeven I don't have much success training him. Oh no he just pops up whenever he feels like it no matter what. bw colin ( and from him) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:15:11 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: TTT - recording quality, popping sounds etc TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/9/98 5:44:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, haw@ph.ed.ac.uk > writes: > > << I need to listen back to the album to be sure about all of this! > >> > > I hear a lot of it on the title track. (popping, that is) Popping is great fun tho i prefer not to listen to others popping.Okay so i haven't a clue what you are on about. I've been on another planet this week-Neuroticus I think. ( get down off of there) > > > Terry - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 16:21:21 -0800 From: Shari Subject: COPYRIGHT INFO / SPAM - NJC Sorry if I bothered anyone with the posting of the COPYRIGHT EXTENSION piece. I thought it may have been some interest to some of you in light of the previous discussion on Joni's income. Shari wowpub@quake.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:35:09 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: TTT This is so cool!! I wish I were gay. (I wish I were a black gay man, like Joni). >d at Tower Records in the Castro district of > San Francisco, TTT lands at #1 in it's opening week. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:37:41 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: TTT 12-track promo?, C&S quad mix There is a Quadrophonic mix of People's Parties and Same Situation on one of the tape trees. The only difference I can hear is that there is a break between the two songs on it. Also, could the 12 track thing you were talking about be the carat? (sp?) ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | | | "Every disc a poker chip, every | | song just a one-night stand." | | -Joni Mitchell | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:37:13 +0100 From: Rob Jordan Subject: Re: jmdler love affair (NJC) At 08:28 09/10/98 -0700, Steve Dulson wrote: >Of course, to make it halfway realistic, they're >going to change the photo of the fat geek that they have as me in The >Gallery. Don't worry, in the next series, you have cosmetic surgery, and are played by Matt Le Blanc, lately Dr. Drake Ramore in General Hospital. I saw it already on satellite. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:59:25 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: important...please read dear listers - i did a terrible thing in my last "farewell" post. i inadvertantly implied that the post i received earlier today was somehow equivalent to a post brian chilihead received that ultimately led to his resignation from the list. as we all know, because brian felt it appropriate to divulge the information, his post was from david marine. mine was not from david, and i would bet the mortgage that the content of david's post to brian was in no way shape or form equal to the one i received - and it was careless and stupid of me to give that impression! see what i mean? even in my exit, i stick my foot in my mouth. email is indeed an acquired skill and i still have alot of acquiring to do. my apologies to david for that horrible mistake and to the list for, once again, expressing myself so inadequately. i wanted to take some time to compose this carefully, but i have already posted to les to have my name removed from this roster and god knows how much time i have before that takes place, so once again, i am rushing and upset and lord knows i will probably be back in 20 minutes with yet another retraction. thanks to all of you for putting up with me. i appreciate all the posts of support and concern from you that i have received. i am very touched. i wish you all the best. ric ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 98 17:20:26 -0700 From: Wally Breese Subject: Joni's sales Hello, Someone wrote in the last digest that Joni sells 250,000 copies of her albums worldwide. That's an incorrect statement. Joni sells about 250,000 copies in the U.S. alone, with another 150,000 outside the U.S. for a total of around 400,000 copies per album. And these are only SoundScan numbers. Add another 50% for those sales that don't go through SoundScan, and the total is more like 600,000. Still, the official number is around 400,000 per album. Thanks! Later, Wally Breese The Joni Mitchell Homepage http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 17:32:43 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Re: attitude & so forth At 11:18 PM 10/8/98 +0000, BarBearUh wrote.... an interesting essay. Gee whiz, I thought the NY Times and Rolling Stone reviews were lukewarm! This one's really hot! I'd like to comment on some of her observations...... > but my first reaction to the whole album could be summed up >in one word even more cruel: muzak. Ouch! Even though it's been well documented that Joni's old songs have been plying muzak's charts I think this comparison is invalid. After all, there are no vocals in real muzak. :-) > i have not yet been able to >listen to it all the way through without getting bored. > i just couldn't stand it. I guess I'm sadistic; I've been listening to it continuously without feeling the slightest bit of pain or torture. I can't wait to get up in the morning and start playing it again. But perhaps I'm just easily amused. >this is the thing that is most disappointing to me - the >lyrics are often pitiful. Must disagree here. I don't pity Joni in the slightest. This is Joni at her minimalist best. >she seems to be playing tools, >not instruments. needs a producer. Aren't instruments tools which make musical notes? The new synthy-sounds are pretty exotic and futuristic, IMO. An acquired taste? I dunno. Of the countless things about Joni's music I've always admired is the fact that it's not been altered by some producer (with a few exceptions, of course). What you hear is what Joni intended. And I like what I hear. >i also have to say i don't think the >artwork is so great. >these paintings don't do much for me and seem much more >amateurish than previous works. I find the paintings show a maturity and a clarity that earlier works didn't feature so much. Her sense of perspective has never been finer, and even though these are just small reproductions which have been photographed and lithographed, I'm fascinated by her sometimes obvious, sometimes subtle studies of shadows and light, so evident in much of the TTT collection. >i try to be confident enough in my own work to not feel the need to >put someone else down to try to make myself look better. when she gets a >public platform and disses other people's music, it's just bad manners. it's >unnecessary, and often hurtful to those she trashes. and i often get the >sense she doesn't know what she's talking about. Huh? Joni's ignorant? Coulda fooled me! Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:43:24 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: important...please read rickielee i am rushing too to say a fond farewell to you. i do not know you that well but was and will be forever charmed by the story you told about your daughter--and i like the way you "talk." ("can't carry a tune in a bucket" has been added forever to my lexicon of colorful excellent phrases). And now I feel guilt(ier) because when chili wrote about david's unkind post i posted something that said "fuck him" regarding david...i have already apologized to both david and the list, and i know that i was sticking up for, in that moment, someone who had been hurt, but still, that kind of language and carelessness is exactly what we don't want on these lines. anyway, it is truly disgusting that anyone would mention even a word with threatening intent regarding your child (or children)--truly disgusting. that poor soul must be very disturbed indeed and it is very unfortunate that you should have *ever* had to read such a piece of mail. I miss you already and wish you well--I wish you weren't going but how can i argue that you stay when you have suffered such an unthinkable affront. sincerely, raymond ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:17:50 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Lead Balloon Manifesto this is a late reply perhaps but i'm on my own...time (so please forgive)...I don't know if I agree wholeheartedly with your manifesto--for one, i think joni was *seriously* trying to rock all over wild things run fast and definetly on dog eat dog (and god love her for it!)--but i do think she has a wicked and very distinctive (what else?) sense of humour. This was absolutely, utterly and beautifully confirmed when TI came out with its wicked cover portrait! I remember showing it around to people--an artist in new york "no less"--and her saying "I just don't understand why people do things like this." Like a schoolmarm, a keeper of the sacred, a smug, broken-in-trendy- gallery-churches (or bad art schools) lemming. *Nobody* I know got it. Til I wondered if I got it wrong! (almost). Then of course I found wally's site--where, ultimately, joni herself confirmed. and then of course there is the list. where, blessedly, we all interpret and bring to this art all of our own perceptions. so, that said, I will repair now and think about what you, kakki, hear in lead balloon. which, no matter if I agree with all that you said, I definetly like and admire. for whatever reasons--which hopefully i can express better later. r ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 18:21:07 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Joni in the Austin Chronicle Neil E. Orts wrote: > > I thought you would all like to see this interview in this weeks Austin > Chronicle. It's online at: > > http://www.auschron.com/current/music.jmitchell.html > > Enjoy. I want to publicly thank Neil for posting this URL. If any of you haven't read this, I strongly urge you too. It gives Joni a chance to tell her point of view and doesn't seem to be slanted or edited with a view toward making her look bad. And the bit about Kilauren & Marlin at the end brought a tear to my eye. But then I'm kind of a weepy sentimental old softy. Mark in Seattle (wondering why the hell my last paycheck bounced! If that bastard Geffen is behind this so help me I'm gonna get a gun! thisisajokethisisajokethisisajoke) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 21:57:50 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: BarBearUh Trashing In a message dated 10/9/98 3:06:56 AM, skindeep@hdo.net wrote: >Well it looks like the only ones barbara left out >was NJC Chili / David >Trashes everyone and leaves town. >You gotta love it. that's a horrible thing to post and i'm so sick and tired of everyone trashing each other. GET OVER YOURSELVES. i read barbearuh's post and hardly bristled or got screaming angry even though i disagreed at some points. barbearuh even kept saying, "it's just my opinion". and it IS just an opinion. everyone has them. this is just sick, sick, sick and disgusting. look at us! we're turning against eachother. and why? no reason except that we disagree. and that's really and truly diseased and wrong and sad. - -mariana NP: nirvana, -in utero- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:12:51 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: jmdler love affair (NJC) In a message dated 10/9/98 1:41:42 PM, mwyarbro@zzapp.org wrote: >Maybe they'll downsize that faggot casting director who decided >that over half the male characters should be queers. Like *that's* >believable. It's bad enough that I have to spell my old lady's name >"Sean" all the time; did I really have to go through that disgusting >anal sex NJC thread a few months back, too? (Though the >background research *was* more interesting than I expected it to >be.) > >Freeze my wages?! I deserve a raise you pansy mother-f**kers! >And unless props gets my damn stereo back to me there will be >no more NP tags, on my mother's grave!! And when do *I* get to stop pretending I'm a 16 year old for cryin' out loud. This isn't what I get paid for---boys! high school! The Foo Fighters?!!! they should cut down on the director's pay check and get an actual writer. i could write better than that. actually i'm trying to get some of the writers to add some of my personal details into this lame character...like my love for the backstreet boys, my golden globe award, and my closet full of little gucci dresses (my personal trainer says hi, luvvies) when i was getting my nose job the other day, i mentioned in passing to my close friend mr. coppola that i'm looking for a new job. between you and me, this mitchell (whatever her first name is) thing is getting old. and they thought the truman show was bad... - -supposed mariana NP: nirvana, -in utero- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:24:59 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT INFO / SPAM - NJC Shari wrote: >Sorry if I bothered anyone with the posting of the >COPYRIGHT EXTENSION piece. I thought it may have >been some interest to some of you in light of the >previous discussion on Joni's income. No problem from me and thank you for posting it. This is very significant legislation for all artists on many levels, and for their heirs. This is going to set some things on their head and I look at it as positive legislation overall. As for the new exemption for small clubs from paying ASCAP, BMI, etc., I know several local musicians who would welcome this. Small restaurants/bars often have had to eliminate any live music from their establishments because they could not afford the fees which they would have to pay when people performed cover songs. Kakki NP: "Remember this, each new day is a kiss..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:35:22 EDT From: WombQueen@aol.com Subject: Farther into the WOMB (NJC) List, This is a farewell (temporary) post.....not that I'm Ms. Active on the list anyhow, but I figured I would let you all know I'm taking a sabbatical from the list while I move across the country from CO to VA on Sunday. The computer gets boxed tomorrow, and will probably stay boxed for about a week while we move and get settled. I'm not too happy about it, since this is a crucial time for Joniphiles, what with the release of TTT and her upcoming pay-per-view extravaganza Nov. 6th....but, alas, what must be done must be done. If anyone would like to e-mail me privately during this week of chaos, feel free to do so....I just don't want to hook up the computer to find 500+ posts clogging up the works. So farewell for now, my darlings....make sure to check out the Joni article in the latest Rolling Stone....some BEAUTIFUL pics of her in there (didn't get to read the article because mine hasn't arrived in the mail yet and I only happened to see it in the line at the supermarket....but the pictures alone are worth it and then some). Bye for now, Womby _________________________ "Wombstock" We are crowded/ There's no room/ We've got to get ourselves/ Back to the womb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 98 03:16:21 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: a fond farewell (NJC) How does a person who signs every email with either "peace" or "love" become the target of hatred? That's the question I've been asking myself for some 3 hrs now, since I first read Ric's post. And I have no answers. As for how to address the problem of private hate mail and "nastygrams," I think that it might make sense to take them and forward them to the list with a little note: "thought the list might be interested in seeing the true character of xxx member." If nothing else, the offender would be outed and shamed, and would likely leave the list in disgrace. Right now, the (wrongfully) attacked are leaving. But I bet if the few people who engage in private hate mail knew that their messages would become public, they'd cease and desist, and this "problem" would just go away. Ric, I'm gonna miss you. -Kenny ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 20:40:55 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: New Photos (NJC) Hello: I've added five to new photos to my cyber-gallery - including Buffy St. Marie, Richie Havens, Steve Stills and the trio of Crosby, Nash & Raitt. Can you identify the fifth mystery portrait? Here's the URL: http://gate.cruzio.com/~stevem/lphot.html Leslie Steve Mixon http://www.cruzio.com/~stevem ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:31:23 -0300 From: "wallykai" Subject: my reply to a fond farewell[njc and long] Dear listers, This post is going to be the kind that I would hate to have to read on the list. It concerns a private exchange of e-mails, in this case between ric and me, and I have always thought that the list should be spared such stuff. However, today it is my name and reputation that is at stake, so I would like to reply. If you feel that you don't need to read any further, please delete now and excuse me for taking your space and time. I am the disturbed list member ric mentions in his farewell post. During the time that I have known ric on the list I have corresponded with him on several occasions. Unfortunately, I will have to quote from memory since only today I deleted all posts from and to ric. I'm sure that ric will be happy to correct any inaccuracies that might result from my lack of memory. Around the time we were discussing a song by Liz Phair that I had posted to the list, I received a very friendly message from ric, which I replied in an equally friendly manner. Soon afterwards ric sent me another message that started what I perceived as an open discussion of our lives and, as he recently put it, our "proclivities". Meanwhile we exchanged samples of our poetry, ric's being of such quality that I asked his permission to use it with my students of English as a foreign language for teaching purposes. He gave his consent. To complete the activity my students wrote messages to ric sharing their feelings about the poem, messages that I posted to ric and that seemed to please him very much. The poem was a very beautiful depiction of fatherly love, which had moved me very deeply. Our exchange continued for a little while, gaining in intimacy. Inspired by a question from ric to describe in detail my adventures in Brazil, I had proposed, before the poem exchange, a kind of quid pro quo game. I'd tell him about my exploits if he told me about his. His words had been approximately, "don't spare me any details: the devil is in them". It is a well-established fact that I am gay and that I am totally outspoken about my sexual practices and "proclivities". I made my first mistake, I assumed that ric could take any kind of candid suggestion on my part to enhance his exploration of sensuality. This was not so, and ric expressed in very strong terms that he felt insulted by some of my suggestions and he remarked that I must hate myself to convey what I had in my message. As I understood it, ric thought that I was coming on to him or probing his sexual orientation and he inferred that if I didn't do it openly it must be because of self-hatred. As it had never been my intention to shock or offend him, and as his conclusion was so ludicrous as it was funny, I attributed this conclusion to incompatibility or language problems on my part and suggested that we stop corresponding. Deep within myself, I was rather hurt and very embarrassed to have brought about such misunderstanding. The words "again I talked too open and free" acquired great significance. Recently, because of my indirectly replying one of his posts to the list, ric contacted me again and said he was glad I seemed to have forgiven his reaction to my private post. I felt happy to put the ugly incident behind and answered in a friendly way. A few days ago, I began one of my posts by saying something like "I'd hate to do anything that would contribute to inflating ric's ego any further, but I think he has point, etc.." That was a well-meant joke. In fact, I always regarded ric as someone with a huge ego, and that was part of the fun of knowing him. He replied privately and joked about men with big egos and big feet. Present time: ric sends this sweet story about her daughter Lindsay substituting "spaceship" for "facelift" in Joni's song. I, like many members, was delighted. I wrote him -- again, from memory: "How come someone like you can have such a cute kid? I want to take a ride on Lindsay's spaceship." Can this be construed as obscene or threatening? ric's reaction was again violent and abusive. He said his daughter was the light of his lif e and that I obviously didn't have anyone like that in my life, etc.. He added that I was neither clever nor important to care so I'd better save my breath and not reply. I did reply. Once more I explained: I had never meant to offend either him or his daughter and that if his intention had been to hurt me, he had succeeded. At this point, I was already a little fed up with ric's cruelty and what I could explain only as paranoia, so I called him exactly that: cruel and paranoid. I asked him never to write me again. He wrote back and said I always hid my hostility behind the excuse of the well-meant joke. He added more abuse and signed off. I had expressly asked him not to write to me anymore. I had spent a horrible night trying to find out what on earth I had done to elicit such violence from someone that had seemed so friendly and who seemed to know already my kind of humor and personality. This was my second mistake. ric didn't know me at all. Apparently, he was willing only to take a joke if it was at someone else's expense. So I got mad. I'm a very temperamental person. I give many chances, but I can't forgive abuse or injustice. I wrote to ric and told him, among other things: "ric, stop trying to hurt me. I pity your daughters, God only knows what you have in store for them. I fear for X [the name of a common friend, very dear to both of us]. Fortunately for you, I believe in letting everyone learn their own lessons, so I won't unmask you. But you can be sure that you've earned yourself an enemy for life. Leave me alone, you sick, perverse, sadistic son of a bitch!" Strong words, right? Yes, and I hate myself for letting ric make me lose control. On the other hand, knowing myself, I can tell you that was pretty mild. I never threatened ric or his family. I never did anything to deserve his abuse or being called "one of our more disturbed list members". I am appalled that someone capable of creating such beautiful poetry, of exhibiting a seemingly great sense of humor and of earning the friendship of some of the people I respect the most on and off this list can stoop so low as to send my private e-mails to our dear common friend with who knows what purpose. It's equally appalling that ric should resort to the cheap "fond farewell" tactic to stir curiosity about the threatening, deranged list member and drag the matter out into public debate, without seeming to do so. It is specially scary that he would take advantage of the chili/David situation to influence the public opinion more deeply. Strangely enough, I don't think ric is a bad guy. He must have his reasons to act this way. But I'd rather he chose someone else to play his games, someone other than me and those I care for, at least. This post is intended to serve as one more example of how "now it's cloak and dagger, walk on eggshells and analyze" on the list and elsewhere. It is also an attempt to use my right to protect myself from someone else's hang-ups. And finally it is a public admission that I still trust people and that I'm willing to listen and learn. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:32:46 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: a fond farewell (NJC) Kenny wrote: >How does a person who signs every email with either "peace" or "love" >become the target of hatred? I don't know - the answers are no doubt very complex and beyond the understanding of non-professionals. I wish Ric would stay and think whatever he received must have been pretty atrocious to have driven him away. >As for how to address the problem of private hate mail and >"nastygrams," think that it might make sense to take them and forward >them to the list with a little note: "thought the list might be interested in >seeing the true character of xxx member." Kenny, I understand your sentiments here 100% but I don't think the solution is so simple. If we are talking about someone who has truly been harmed sending an email from someone who is plain old nasty, maybe this would be effective. But what about the converse situation? What if someone was unscrupulous and dramatically changed and edited an email of yours and sent it to the list trying to set you up? What would you do to try to prove to everyone you did not send it or that its' content had been altered? A real nasty person could pull such a stunt on someone. Encouraging forwarding of private email to the list leaves open the possibility of such a scenario. >If nothing else, the offender would be outed and shamed, and would likely >leave the list in disgrace. Only if we presume that the offender has some sense of shame or conscience to begin with. A truly disturbed person may actually be spurred on to do more heinous acts. I don't know the best solution to stop this stuff and wish I did. Sometimes people don't take any action because of fear of reprisal. It is sad. Hoping Ric will come back. He has many friends here. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:11:01 -0400 From: Beverly Subject: Re: New Photos (NJC) Leslie wrote: > Can you identify the fifth mystery portrait? Mr. Mixon? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 23:56:12 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Birthday Card I've had a couple people send their info for the card to my own email address so I want to mention again the proper address is birthday@jmdl.com These posts go to Michael Pax who is compiling the list. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:54:17 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: a fond farewell (NJC) Oops, nevermind. Kenny, wanna go have a smoke? Emily Litella ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 98 05:12:12 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: a fond farewell (NJC) Hey Kakki, would *love* to go for a smoke with 'ya :-) You raised a good point about "fabricated/edited" messages -- never thought of that. And it's a very real possibility too. Oh well. It was a thought. -Kenny On 10/9/98 "Kakki" wrote: Oops, nevermind. Kenny, wanna go have a smoke? Emily Litella ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:16:34 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: a fond farewell (NJC) In a message dated 10/9/98 11:20:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kg@ibm.net writes: << But I bet if the few people who engage in private hate mail knew that their messages would become public, they'd cease and desist, and this "problem" would just go away. >> I think this is a good idea. Apparently, there are some people, or at least one person, who is not presenting himself or herself publicly the same as he or she does privately. The pressure of public knowledge would stop these things one way or another. On the other hand, I vaguely recall receiving one or two such nastygrams (which in part might have been deserved) a year ago or so, but I paid them such little mind that I don't even recall who sent them. Nor do I care. Keep in mind that you serve the interests of the attacker when you get upset about it. Nothing frustrates such a person more than being ignored. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:21:55 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: RE: a fond farewell (NJC) I don't smoke but a cup of coffee would be nice if I can crash this parade. Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:33:20 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: a fond farewell (NJC) In a message dated 10/10/98 1:19:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kg@ibm.net writes: << Hey Kakki, would *love* to go for a smoke with 'ya :-) >> Hey, me three! (avoiding the dreaded "me too" post and associated ban). Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:41:48 -0400 From: "Marsha" Subject: Now for some lighter fare... I got my notice from the state motor vehicle department yesterday, and I have been approved for my license plate that says: "JONIFAN" with pretty Tennessee (Van Gogh-ish) irises as the background. I should get it by December 1st. A moving Joni ad. How neato, how gauche... "He pulled up behind a JONIFAN We were waiting for the light Took a look at my license plate (It spawned wonder from that new man) 'JONIFAN', governed by a sound so grand Just one woman doing what she can With the word of a diva, what she must And my gas leaks And my oil spills...." Oh well, that's enough from the parody department. (Note to Kakki et al) I'm NOT cranking out any more of these slimy rhymin' things, until I get my royalty checks from Reprise... and from the looks of things, reality of certain list dramas are more "exciting" than any scripted shit we've come up with...could The Man maybe hire a couple of list quitters as writers for us? Mistress of Parody...going on strike ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:47:49 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: RE: Now for some lighter fare... Okay Marsha, I am going to be in Nashville from November 19 - 24 and I am going to look all over the city for a JONIFAN plate. I might even surprise you and leave you some Dollypoo. Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:58:35 -0400 From: "Marsha" Subject: (NJC) Re: Now for some lighter fare... - -----Original Message----- From: Happy The Man To: Marsha ; joni@smoe.org Date: Saturday, October 10, 1998 1:47 AM Subject: RE: Now for some lighter fare... >Okay Marsha, I am going to be in Nashville from November 19 - 24 and I am >going to look all over the city for a JONIFAN plate. I might even surprise >you and leave you some Dollypoo. Search away, Happy. Wrong city. MoP, in a Tennessee city that begins with a "K" (as I've posted many times) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #409 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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