From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #403 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, October 7 1998 Volume 03 : Number 403 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Orlando@jmdl.com -Tampa@jmdl.com Sunrise@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni on Probation [FredNow@aol.com] Re: JM? STAS? [FredNow@aol.com] RE: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) ["wallykai" ] Re: Song To A Seagull ["Deb Messling" ] psychoanalyzing Joni and the JMDL ["M & C Urbanski" ] folk opera (SJC) [Thomas Ross ] Re: Song To A Seagull [Jerry Notaro ] HBO? [Drewdix@aol.com] Re: Joni on Probation ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: psychoanalyzing Joni and the JMDL [MHart16164@aol.com] songs by joni [MHart16164@aol.com] Paz [Leslie Mixon ] NJC: Dylan Set-Lists [Roger Walker ] Re: HBO? [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: songs by joni ["Ken (Slarty)" ] janet jackson msg...(njc) [KerriLynn@aol.com] Rolling Stone article [Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org] Re: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) [jan gyn ] NJC - A petition to censure and move on [Bounced Message ] Re: David's Response (NJC) [Bounced Message ] I Love Joni Mitchell! As a PERSON! [Bounced Message ] Re: inappropriate covers -Reply [Michael Goerz ] Meet and Greet mailing list update [Les Irvin ] i dont know where i stand [Bounced Message ] i dontknow where i stand [SDWS10@aol.com] Re: inappropriate covers -Reply (NJC) [jan gyn ] Re: inappropriate covers -Reply (NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: a patchwork of covers (SJC) ["John M. Lind" ] Re: Joni the performer? [PMcfad@aol.com] Re: I Love Joni Mitchell! As a PERSON! [Phyliss Ward ] Re: patchwork of covers [Cblakey5@aol.com] Joni on PPV? [Steve Dulson ] Re: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC ["John M. Lind" ] Time Out NY TTT review [Rachel Kramer Bussel ] re: Grace Of My Heart [John Lasater ] Re: Time Out NY TTT review ["Marsha" ] Re: i dont know where i stand [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Joni on PPV - a plan [Ashara@aol.com] Re: I Love Joni Mitchell! As a PERSON! ["Kakki" ] Re: Inappropriate Covers [jan gyn ] Re: Inappropriate Covers ["Don Rowe" ] Honeymoon(NJC) ["John M. Lind" ] patchwork of covers (??JC) [Dmascall@aol.com] patchwork of covers (??JC) [Dmascall@aol.com] Re: I Love Joni Mitchell! As a PERSON! [Gellerray@aol.com] njc sticks and stones ["Julie Z. Webb" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 03:26:03 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on Probation "Ken (Slarty)" wrote: >>If I hear Joni doing anything even slightly resembling polka music on >>her next album I will personally hold you responsible!!! >>> 2. For the arrogant representation that you were the first to use World >>> Music in your songs, we request that you be forced to listen to Polka music >>> every night for one month Hey, polka *is* world music, and some of it is the most swinging, joyful, fun music I've ever heard or played. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 03:35:42 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: JM? STAS? Robert Holliston wrote: >>When was the title changed? I think Mark D. is right: the first album >>is called......Joni Mitchell. I call it "Buddy." - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 04:58:32 -0300 From: "wallykai" Subject: RE: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) Julio Iglesias: "The Dry Cleaner from Des Moines" Jessye Norman: "Talk to Me" Shirley Bassey: "Man from Mars" ... no, wait! This one would actually SUIT Bassey. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:45:52 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Missing digests and Joni playing reggae ... I've had a few truncated digests recently, so want to thank both Les and Steve for providing the perfect answer. Everybody take a note ! From: Steve Dulson >My mail reader has an annoying habit of truncating digests >if it sees a single "." on a line - a period, or full stop >to you Brits :) - and I have had to go grovelling and begging >to Les to re-mail the digests to me without the offending >line. He has always done so with grace and good humor! > >He has now pointed me to the list archives at > >http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni/ > >which seem to be absolutely up-to-the-minute, so if you're >missing a digest, it's the place to look. And now for something completely different : From: "John T. Folden" > >Can any of you help me out >by naming all the catagories Joni has covered (jazz, folk, >R&B, etc...) and possibly provide examples. > I tend to be very careful about categorising music ... but anyway, to join in the spirit of your question: Solid Love is Joni playing reggae! (OK, only the verses count, and it's a bastardised kind of reggae, but there you go ...) In fact, if "The Police" count as a musical style, I'd say most of "Wild Things" qualified! Also "Shiny Toys" ... Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:00:41 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Re: patchwork of covers From: BarBearUh >David Mascall wrote: >> inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? >> >> Tom Waits - the BoHo Dance > >actually, i think that would be a great combo. imagine the vocal through >the bullhorn, and some clanking in the background. i'd like it at least. I'd love to hear Tom Waits do this one! My suggestions: Steely Dan - Circle Game Oasis - Songs To Ageing Children Howard W. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:31:19 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Song To A Seagull The point for JMDers is that we as fans know what Joni intended, so it's appropriate to call it STAS. As a librarian I would still be unsure. The last time I looked, STAS was listed in the Library of Congress as "Joni Mitchell" -- I was the one that looked up, not Jerry I don't think. But if LOC changed their entry, the only reason they changed is that the name on the item itself, the disc, has changed. As long as the item itself said "Joni Mitchell," then for all practical purposes the real name was "Joni Mitchell" because once LOC cataloged it, everyone else would follow suit. You can't catalog what exists only in an artist's mind -- you have to rely on the physical object in front of you. > But I'd thought that Jerry Notaro had finally answered the question > conclusively when he found it listed in the Library of Congress or something ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:01:42 -0400 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: psychoanalyzing Joni and the JMDL The JMDL has taken a funky twist lately despite the release of TTT and the up coming tours. I've been in the reflecting and analytical more and this is what I see: Joni is turning 55 next month. Her music in the past 3 CDs (NRH, TI & TTT) all have songs about her dealing with or "fighting off growing old". We see her on GMA with little or no make-up, her voice doesn't have the same spark and she's a bit crotchety lately. We are all feeling the effects! Some of us are her age, some of us are younger. Most of us have followed her career since STAS. Who wants to see someone we adore grow old? In the process we look at ourselves; "We look like our mothers did now..." (& fathers). We reflect that we were "wild in the old days, birth of Joni Mitchell days". Now here we are singing along to "for God's sake mama I'm middle-aged...happiness is the best facelift". Joni is sick of the music industry, that's obvious! Even though I enjoy TTT, it doesn't have the same power as her other babies. She has a new toy-the VG8, she's experimenting. She's embarking on change. When Joni recorded Court & Spark, she lost A LOT of folkie fans. I see grumbling over this change. I also see Joni drifting from music as being the center stage to painting as being her top priority. Anyone notice the amount of art in TTT as opposed to any other packaging? Anyone notice how she has developed as a painter? I think her art on TTT is better than her lyrics. I also think that deep down inside we all see these changes and have fears that our beloved Joni is going to drop out of sight musically and devote herself to painting. She's probably going to retire and OH MY GOD, we have nothing to look forward to! Look forward to her artwork!! Once she gets past all this promo stuff and settles back into a routine, I suggest we encourage her art. I along with a gallery director I know, have invited her to my alma mater's art gallery for a show. Let's support Joni in this direction! Talk to gallery and museum directors in your area. Let's encourage an ART TOUR! That's what I'd love to see! Let's look at BOTH SIDES NOW! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:55:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: folk opera (SJC) I take the operatic singing style to be designed to project in a theater without amplification. . . but yes something's out of whack with certain manners, esp the wide vibrato which masks outoftuneness. of course certain singers are breathtaking anyway. mirella freni's knocked me out. and what's her name. . .you know, the new young Italian. . . Bartoli. I've always wanted to see an Italian opera in a small town in Italy without big stars. Hear it's participatory, vulgar, discerning; and would probably leaven our distaste for what we get exposed to. yeah a 'folk' or gospel-influenced Porgy would be great. Heard Ray Charles do Summertime with M McPartland on Piano Jazz recently. That he blew Joni's version away isn't surprising, since he does that to just about everyone. operalike forms in other parts of the world enjoy 'folk' status (not forgetting the adage attributed to Louis Armstrong or whoever that all music must be folk music, because he never heard a horse sing): a cop I befriended in Bangkok when I was 20 or so took me to the equivalent of the policemen's ball, where we drank rice beer and watched . . .well, a folk-opera . . .where all the stock characters were known to the audience ( a la commedia del arte), with drumcircle, gongcircle, percussion, and the wonderful hne, which must be the reediest, most smartalecky double reed there is. similarly in java and bali opera, in the sense of the amalgam of arts which is shadowplay, includes singing among the many skills which the puppeteer must master. ok, just for fun let's reverse it: Luciano Pavarotti is the pastor in a black gospel church. . . ;^) tr ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 09:09:02 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Song To A Seagull Kakki wrote: > But I'd thought that Jerry Notaro had finally answered the question > conclusively when he found it listed in the Library of Congress or something > that indeed STAS is the official title? To clarify, I described the way the Library of Congress catalogs: item over package. They would actually create 2 separate LC records if they had 2 exact items with different titles in order to differentiate. LC does not claim to be an authority on titles, but its Name Authority File is the largest and most respected in the world. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:10:16 EDT From: Drewdix@aol.com Subject: HBO? Can someom\ne post when the HBO special is airing (it is HBO, isn't it?) I bet I'm not the only one behind the curve on this...thanks. - --Drew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 09:34:52 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: Joni on Probation FredNow@aol.com wrote: > Hey, polka *is* world music, and some of it is the most swinging, joyful, fun > music I've ever heard or played. > I think arguing about musical taste is almost as bad as arguing about religion or politics. So I'm just going to keep my big mouth shut. Just remember there are 2 kinds of taste, My taste and bad taste! :~) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:40:31 EDT From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: Re: psychoanalyzing Joni and the JMDL I agree with you that Joni seems to be focusing more on her painting than her lyrics of late, but the bottom line is this--you can't stifle creative power. She has always changed her style; she has had lyrically weak albums (Wild Things Run Fast) and lyrically staggering ones (Don Juan's Reckless). One weak one doesn't mean the well has run dry. I think the mind will keep generating the thought until the breath is gone. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:54:29 EDT From: MHart16164@aol.com Subject: songs by joni I know this is impossible but... how about Bing Crosby singing "it's coming on Christmas, they're cutting down trees..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 07:21:32 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Paz Well Michael: After that public display of disinterest (YAWN) I'm going to have to ask you to leave this list! (Just kidding just kidding just kidding) Elvira Gulch Steve Mixon http://www.cruzio.com/~stevem ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:16:00 -0400 From: Roger Walker Subject: NJC: Dylan Set-Lists Are you wonderingw what Bob Dylan is playing on tour? Here's the answer: http://www.interferenza.com/bcs/fall98.htm - -- rog ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:29:44 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: HBO? In a message dated 10/7/98 9:15:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Drewdix@aol.com writes: << Can someom\ne post when the HBO special is airing (it is HBO, isn't it?) I bet I'm not the only one behind the curve on this...thanks. --Drew >> It's pay-per-view, which means it is definitely NOT the Home Boxing Office channel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:47:34 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: songs by joni Better than that how about Joni doing a duet with Bing Crosby like Natalie Cole did with her father Nat. Joni could sing the River interspersed with Bing singing his rendition of Jingle Bells. Jingle Bells Ja Ja Ja Jingle Bells. :) MHart16164@aol.com wrote: > I know this is impossible but... > how about Bing Crosby singing > > "it's coming on Christmas, they're cutting down trees..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:52:44 EDT From: KerriLynn@aol.com Subject: janet jackson msg...(njc) Hello all, Just a quick note to let you know how excited i am to go see Janet this weekend.... I'll be there at MSG in NYC with bells on!!!!! Do ya think joni will make a special appearance????? One can dream can't she???? NP: CSN southern cross KerriLynn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:13:16 -0400 From: Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org Subject: Rolling Stone article The new issue of RS (with hip hop on the cover) has a 2 page article about Joni that makes her comments in the New York Times Sunday magazine sound like they're from Pollyanna! Joni will never win fans with statements like she makes in this piece. Her attitude here makes me think that David Crosby's Mussolini comment was correct. The reviewer is neutral except he says "Lead Balloon" is a mistake, which I think he's mistaken about. Also, her negative statements about her awards seem like BS, because she seemed THRILLED to win the Grammy on TV. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 08:57:43 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) >> how about suggesting the most inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? > Carol Channing, 'Happiness is the Best Facelift" Gino Vanelli, 'Furry sings the Blues' - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 09:16:03 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: inappropriate covers >> how about suggesting the most >>inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? > Julia Sweeney, 'Pat's Solo' Devo, 'Jaco's Solo' - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:22:08 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: NJC - A petition to censure and move on Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:49:43 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Now that the Starr report is out, and the worst is known, I've been hoping that congress would take swift action and then move on with the business of the country. But it seems our representatives are settling down for a long process, and I'm not sure I can stand it. Worse, I'm not sure the country can stand it. I'm helping launch an Internet campaign to tell our representatives that we've had enough. The President should receive censure from the Congress and we should all move on. And the independent counsel investigation should end. It's time for the public interest to come first, and for our representatives to show real leadership. Will you help? Just go to http://www.moveon.org to sign the petition. It only takes a minute. And then if you send a message on to your friends and colleagues, the ball will really get rolling. It's up to us. Please feel free to forward this message to anyone you think would be interested. Don't send this message indiscriminately. Spam hurts the campaign. - -- Howard Motyl Producer, MPI Teleproductions 16101 South 108th Avenue Orland Park, IL 60462 708-873-3190 708.873.3177 Fax http://www.mpimedia.com "Anytime you have the opportunity to accomplish something and you don't, you are wasting your time on this earth." Roberto Clemente ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:20:42 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: David's Response (NJC) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:28:51 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" David wrote: > ...I brought this upon myself, and I will have > to live with it. ... > David, don't worry too much about it. I think most of us have had experiences similar to yours, and therefore are able to avoid making premature or wrong judgments. However unpleasant these cyber-quarrels may be, they might indeed have a positive side-effect. I personally have become much more aware of how important it is to make myself clear in my "real-life" (I know this is also "real life"!) relationships, to avoid giving reason for misunderstandings and misinterpretations. I also watch my words much more closely than I used to, and I try very hard to avoid speaking bad about other people, especially behind their backs. I realize these are "everyday" human vices, but through the internet, we can learn, how hurtful and detrimental they can be. Despite the sporadic ocurrences of nastiness and flame-wars, this is a great list, with many, many, many, terrific people on it. In a way, we are all pioneers for the upcoming age of globalized, borderless communication. Mistakes will always happen, but this almost banal finding only should encourage us to forgive ourselves and others, to learn, to move on, to improve. Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:20:05 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: I Love Joni Mitchell! As a PERSON! Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 01:00:38 -0700 From: Tom Turley I have to put my .02 in on this Joni the crank complainer thread and say something nice about her. (This in spite of this morning's people section in the Arizona Republic which also printed Joni's comments--with a tiny but lovely photo-- about current music and Kurt Cobain --same quote posted to the list by JulieZWebb. Have to say the quote had the stink of geezerhood about it, and I briefly worried that JM might be turning into Andy Rooney. . . . But I don't know the whole context . . . .and I'm only thinking good thoughts about Joni on principle.) One oft repeated point in this discussion is that sometimes you have to consciously separate the art from the artist. In the cases of Picasso, Michelangelo, Newton :) and others who have been mentioned, this may be true. And while it may be true that Joni is capable of complaint and bitterness and all that, she is also capable of being kind and generous and gracious. I say she is a nice person, and has demonstrated that to many of the JMDLers who have been fortunate to meet her. My little sister Liz and I were lucky to go the May tapings at Warner Brothers: Long story short: We were given seats then bumped from them as the show was about to begin, and Joni saw us being booted and intervened and insisted we be seated etc. So this week Liz came over to visit, we put TTT in the CD player, and she asked me what the buzz was about the new album--so I attempted to give her a digest of the digest about the mixed reviews it was getting, disappointment with lyrics, VG-8 sameness, and then started to summarize the low level grumbling about Joni the complainer, whiner, bitter and ungrateful person, Joni the unsatisfactory feminist, the encore refuser, etc.. Midway through all that Liz waved her arms and said "Stop right there! After what Joni did for us I don't want to hear anything bad about her." Which was a little surprising because my sister is a far less rabid and uncritical fan than me--Liz only became a Joni fan through simple proximity to my stereo which was engaged in wearing out several vinyl copies of Hejira during her formative childhood years. Anyway, my sister's comment gave me what Kakki, Scott Price, Char and others have eloquently called for when "judging" Joni's behavior--perspective. Joni may have her faults but she is also capable of being a good and admirable human being. Liz and I are obscure non-celebrities from the sticks (we ARE amazing in our own ways, I'm not being modest) but we were nobody to Joni and she could not have expected anything in return but she was gracious and good humored and nice to us--just because, in my opinion, it was a decent human thing to do. I wish I could remember the article I read years ago, at about the time Chalkmark was released, that talked about what a loyal friend Joni was--how she was pals with people's secretaries and remembered birthdays etc. Of all the press portraits of JM to pick and choose from, that is the one I think of first. Perhaps these are less friendly press days and yes, some of her public comments don't help things, but in spite of that we still ought to acknowledge that she's not JUST a complainer, etc. She's also a good person. My two minutes and thirty seconds in Joni's presence may not be an adequate basis for making such a sweeping statement, but heck, she was kind and decent to me and my loved ones. So I have adopted Liz's attitude: "I don't care if somebody says she strangled a man with her bare hands. Till I know otherwise I'll just figure that Joni had her reasons." Best to you all-- Catherine np in an endless loop in my head: hoochie coochie auntie Ruthie hoochie coochie auntie Ruthie hoochie coochie auntie Ruthie hoochie coochie auntie Ruthie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 09:33:42 -0700 From: Michael Goerz Subject: Re: inappropriate covers -Reply No slamming on the pride of Akron, OH-Devo. If it wasn't for Devo you wouldn't have plastic hair or those funny energizer commercials featuring the people with batteries in their backs, etc. C'mon, "Smoothnoodlemaps" was a work of art. Furthermore, regarding someone's inappropriateness of the Beasties covering Joni comment, it should be noted (I think) that they utilize either Joni's beat or what Joni sampled-the drum beat in "The Jungle Line" on their critically acclaimed second effort, "Paul's Boutique" in the last track of the album. However, I would have to say that inappropriate artists covering Joni would be... Celine Dion "Woodstock" (Tesh on piano) Phil Collins "Taming the Tiger" Michael Bolton "Chinese Cafe" Meat Loaf "Furry" Just imagine the sound-the videos, and the cheese... m. >>> jan gyn 10/07/98 09:16am >>> >> how about suggesting the most >>inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? > Julia Sweeney, 'Pat's Solo' Devo, 'Jaco's Solo' - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:45:58 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Meet and Greet mailing list update Joniphiles - Just a quick reminder about the mailing lists set up for Joni's upcoming tour dates. If you want to stay informed of any meet and greet activities simply send a message to any of the below addresses, asking to join. The numbers next to each address indicate the current number of members on each list. Atlanta@jmdl.com (8) Chicago@jmdl.com (12) CollegePark@jmdl.com (8) Detroit@jmdl.com (9) Indianapolis@jmdl.com (6) Kanata@jmdl.com (1) Minneapolis@jmdl.com (4) Nashville@jmdl.com (4) NewYork@jmdl.com (28) Orlando@jmdl.com (6) Rochester@jmdl.com (2) Sunrise@jmdl.com (4) Syracuse@jmdl.com (2) Tampa@jmdl.com (5) Toronto@jmdl.com (8) Nice kitty, kitty... Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:48:05 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: i dont know where i stand From: DECK797@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:45:00 EDT what does anyone think of barbra's version of I Dont Where I Stand....by the way, why are you all so caught up in this shit about chilli, or whatever their name is...back to the point....i love barbras version, more than jonis...is that a crime? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:54:01 EDT From: SDWS10@aol.com Subject: i dontknow where i stand what does anyone think about barbra's version of I Dont Know Where I Stand??...by the way.....what is all this hassel in the digest over chilli, or what ever his stupid name is...??? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:39:01 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: inappropriate covers -Reply (NJC) I like(d) Devo. I honestly prefer their version of 'Satisfaction' to the Stones, who, IMHO, went downhill after Jagger/Richards had Brian Jones assassinated. ...Hmm, thinking of covers, I wouldn't mind hearing Sinead O'Connor doing 'Ruby Tuesday'. - -jan >No slamming on the pride of Akron, OH-Devo. If it wasn't for Devo you >wouldn't have plastic hair or those funny energizer commercials featuring >the people with batteries in their backs, etc. C'mon, "Smoothnoodlemaps" >was a work of art. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:52:50 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Billboard update I don't yet know where TTT debuted on the Billboard charts, but it's safe to say it came in below #78. MTV Online traditionally publishes an article previewing the new Billboard charts on the Wednesday afternoon preceding the chart's publication online on Thursday. This article is currently available at http://www.mtv.com/ In addition to profiling the action at the top of the charts, MTV usually lists the position of several debuts. The lowest debut it lists is the Costello/Bacharach record at 78. As TTT is not listed, it is very likely that it debuted below this position. To contextualize, the top 5 this week are: 1. Jay-Z Volume 2: Hard-Knock Life 357,000 2. Outkast Aquemini 227,000 3. Tribe Called Quest The Love Movement 175,000 4. Lauryn Hill Miseducation of Lauryn Hill ? 5. Sheryl Crow The Globe Sessions 127,000 This may be the first time ever the top 4 albums on the Billboard chart are hip-hop records. As soon as I know more about TTT's chart placement, I will post it here. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 11:06:35 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: inappropriate covers -Reply (NJC) jan, still cracking me up -- > The Stones, who, IMHO, went downhill after Jagger/Richards had Brian >Jones assassinated ... Oh jan, don't you know Brian's not dead? He's gigging with Morrison, Elvis and Jimi. They've opened up a theatre in the jungles of Belize, and I heard through the drum that it's going to be the centerpiece of a new rock-and-roll version of Branson, MO. ;-) Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 14:11:49 -0400 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Re: a patchwork of covers (SJC) David Mascall wrote: >As posts have become so hot lately that I want to sign on wearing a pair of oven gloves, It happens sometimes, even to us. Seems to do this a little about every three months or so. >can I propose a new thread - how about suggesting the most inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? For example, how about the following: >Tom Waits - the BoHo Dance Nope, sorry, gotta disagree with this one. I love Tom Waits and would relish hearing him sing any Joni song, preferably in duet form with Joan herself(this idea popped up on list a while back, anybody remember when?). But how about... Alice Cooper, Kiss, Metalica - no, on second thought they could probably do a pretty good version of "Slouching...", Kenny G., Michael Bolton, Engelbert Humperdink... I could keep going but I really should get back to work. >I hereby rule unilaterally that Celine Dion is out of bounds for this purpose....(or any other) Well, why not just send her to 'Vegas where she make all the money she wants over-singing and only have to bother the people who *want* to hear her? John~ NP "Sister Rosa" - Neville Brothers (primer for honeymoon week in N.O.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:21:29 EDT From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni the performer? << >In a message dated 10/7/98 2:31:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: Philip, you may have misunderstood my point, which was that painting and performing are not analogous activities; Joni's comment is based on faulty logic and doesn't hold water. A painting is to a song, not to a singer; there is no singer in painting -- the painter is the composer of the song. When someone shouts out a request for an old favorite, it is not a request for her to paint another song exactly like it, which would be the result of Joni's retort. Individual musical compositions, songs, are meant to be performed over and over. The art of doing so lies in the ability to make each performance new and real, which is precisely what James Taylor has done through the years. then again, > >>Individual musical compositions, songs, are meant to be performed over >>and over. The art of doing so lies in the ability to make each performance new >>and real, which is precisely what James Taylor has done through the years.>> >> Does Joni think of herself as a performer? A valid question to the logic above. I am not sure I see Joni as a performer. Yes she performs. But I am not sure it is her identityor her essence. And is it the case that just because one performs, one is a performer? James Taylor? yes, a performer. Phil Collins? yes, a performer. Joni Mitchell, .... not sure about that one. I don't even know if she enjoys performing. And i've seen her do great performances. Just not sure she fits the lable 'performer'. As well, not sure she sees herself that way either. So then if she does not see herself as a performer, does your logic still apply? pj ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 11:20:34 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: I Love Joni Mitchell! As a PERSON! Tom Turley wrote: > while it may be true that Joni is capable of complaint and > bitterness and all that, she is also capable of being kind and generous > and gracious. I say she is a nice person, and has demonstrated that to > many of the JMDLers who have been fortunate to meet her. Absolutely! How many people would look a blubbering idiot like me in the face, see how nervous I was, and stand up to give me a HUGE, LONG HUG! She was so incredibly kind and gracious to me. Others in our group have received hugs and kisses too! Is it a fault to be brutally honest in your actions and words? What she's feeling is always written on her face, and spoken from her lips. You have to admire her for that. But in our society and angry woman is a bitch. - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 20:14:18 +0200 From: Robbert Subject: Chili Chili, don't go. Robbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:34:54 EDT From: Cblakey5@aol.com Subject: Re: patchwork of covers Mmmmm, how about: "The River" by either Liberace or Marcia Ball or "Shadows and Light" by the Ramones or "A Song For Sharon" by Jackson Browne Carole ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:42:06 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Joni on PPV? Idle speculation follows.... Been thinking about the upcoming Joni PPV special. In a medium seemingly dominated by "Wrestlemania XXVII" and "Monster Truck Stadium Challenge", (those of you outside the US - don't ask! :) ), not to mention "Bikini Babes in Jamaica", how many people are going to cough up $39.95 to watch Joni? 1,000? 5,000? 10,000? If 10,000 people did (highly unlikely, IMHO) it would generate about $400,000, of which, I would guess, the cable companies would take half, leaving $200,000 for the production company. Some of you have had far more TV production experience than I, but it seems to me that, given a couple of days to set up, a day of rehearsal, two days to shoot, five cameras, editing, mixing, etc., getting it done for under $200K would be tough. So I think that the producers will be hoping to sell it to PBS (then we can see Joni for the next couple of years' pledge breaks! I wouldn't mind that!) - a much more suitable venue, IMHO. Then no doubt they will want to market the videos, which makes me VERY nervous about the on-list talk of taping, duplicating and distributing copies of the special. We might want to wait and see if and when the videos will be available. We have been pretty scrupulous about NOT duplicating commercially available material. No flames from me. Just idle speculation...YMMV... ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 15:04:44 -0400 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Re: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC Deb Messling wrote: >> how about suggesting the most inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? >William Shatner, A Case of You Wouldn't that be "A, Case of... You." John~ NP "Big River" - Grateful Dead ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 15:12:43 -0400 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Re: What does this remind you of Ken (Slarty): wrote >Have you ever heard a song that reminds you of a totally unrelated song by someone else. >>snip<< >Jewel has a song that gets a lot of air play where I live. >>snip<< >Anyway when I hear this song I always think of Elvis Costellos "Watching The Detectives" which I usually end up humming to myself. Are you kidding? My wife and I do this all the time. One of the most blatent I've noticed in recent years was when John Popper ripped off, er, I mean "borrowed" Pachabell's Cannon for "Hook" John~ NP "Crazy Fingers" - Grateful Dead ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:16:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Rachel Kramer Bussel Subject: Time Out NY TTT review from this week's (Oct. 8 - 15) Time Out NY, and it's by Stephin Merritt, singer/songwriter for Magnetic Fields and various other NYC bands and Time Out critic... At first, I thought I'd put in the wrong CD-the electronic sounds (such as a vocodered rhythm unit that sounds as if it's swimming in molasses, and drums made of syrup) were so un-Joni. Then she started singing, and I relaxed again. "The General offered no apologies/He said, 'The soldiers erred in judgment/They should have hired a hooker!'/No apologies/To the outraged Japanese/No 'Sorry little girl'/The pigs just took her." Joni MItchell isn't losing her bite. But she's still doing that jazz thing and wondering why she doesn't get enough respect while working in a combination of two contradictory dead languages: Singer-Songwriter and Jazz. The title track is a watery guitar-driven appreciation of her cat and simultaneous condemnation of the record industry: In it, Mitchell not only imitates her cat, but also calls to the cat and mimics the record critics who call her boring. "The Crazy Cries of Love" begins "It was a dark and a stormy night/Everyone was at the wingding/They weren't the wingding type" while Wayne SHorter's saxophone doodles impressionistically. Hers is a unique music, and for excellent reasons. If they lyrics weren't so great, nobody, but nobody, would listen to it. Unfortunately for Mitchell, and fortunately for Sheryl Crow, these lyrics are so great you need never listen to the record. Taming the Tiger claims to geature a guitar orchestra, but it sounds more as if it features a guitar synthesizer, an instrument that guitarists hate because it's too slow and that synthesists can't play well. It makes the abovementioned un-Joni sounds. The production on this album may be cheesier than Yanni, but reading the lyric sheet is 99 percent of the fun. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:24:17 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: John Lasater Subject: re: Grace Of My Heart "Grace Of My Heart" got mixed reviews when it was released; I really enjoyed it because I like Illeana Douglas, the actress who played the Carole King-like lead role, even if she isn't much of a lip-syncher. It's a bit of a soap opera, but see it if only because the soundtrack (produced by Larry Klein) is a brilliant recreation of the musical styles of the 60's and early 70's (Burt Bacharach, The Everly Brothers, Motown girl groups like the Supremes, "Pet Sounds"-era Beach Boys, and of course, "sensitive singer-songwriters," like Joni.) The arrangement of "Man From Mars" used in the film is probably better than the one recorded for TTT; in the movie it sounds like it could have been an outtake from "For The Roses" or "Ladies of the Canyon." As if we needed it, this is proof that Joni is a brilliant songwriter- she continues to push the boundaries of what we call "pop" music, yet in 1996, she was able to compose a song that perfectly synthesizes the style of the music she was making 25 years earlier. In the context of "sensitive-singer-songwriters of the early 70's," the line "without at least one big boo-hoo" makes perfect sense. You could just buy the soundtrack and skip the movie altogether, but then you'd miss the cool cameos (Shawn Colvin as a "commune-hippie-chick" strumming her guitar, and Bridget Fonda as a lesbian teen queen performing the song "My Secret Love.") And while we're on the subject, I'd like to put in a little plug for "Painted From Memory," the Burt Bacharach/Elvis Costello collaboration which features the song "God Give Me Strength," also from the movie. Highly recommended- I have tickets to see them in Los Angeles if I can afford to fly there. (Note to Michael Paz: Can't get "But two people/ living in Toledo/ know that their name/ hasn't traveled very well" out of my head.) John Lasater NP: "Painted From Memory" by Burt and the other Elvis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:31:54 -0400 From: "Marsha" Subject: Re: Time Out NY TTT review - -----Original Message----- From: Rachel Kramer Bussel To: Joni List Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 3:17 PM Subject: Time Out NY TTT review Cheesier than Yanni?...now I have seen it all. Ugh. Marsha >The production on this album may be cheesier than Yanni, but >reading the lyric sheet is 99 percent of the fun. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 15:35:11 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: i dont know where i stand I'm a big fan of Babs' version. Very tender rendition. But the best Joni cover in my book is Bonnie Raitt's Midway. Jerry np: Bette Midler - Bathhouse Betty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:45:58 EDT From: Cblakey5@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on PPV - a plan I had a thought. Perhaps some folks capable of receiving the PPV might want to throw a little regional get-together, tape and share the cost of receiving the program. I don't have the option of receiving the PPV, but I'd be willing to share the $ and the fun. Any interest out there in Joniland...? Carole ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:31:00 -0400 From: "Kay Ashley" Subject: Inappropriate Covers "Black Crow" -- Bob Dylan "This Flight Tonight" -- AC/DC :-D Kay ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:04:35 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on PPV - a plan In a message dated 10/7/98 3:49:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Cblakey5@aol.com writes: << I had a thought. Perhaps some folks capable of receiving the PPV might want to throw a little regional get-together, tape and share the cost of receiving the program. I don't have the option of receiving the PPV, but I'd be willing to share the $ and the fun. Any interest out there in Joniland...? >> Great idea!!! I'll host the Boston-area get together. If any of you Bostonites are interested, please e-mail me privately. (Of course, if you want to fly in from all over the country, and Europe again, I'm game!) Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:56:58 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: I Love Joni Mitchell! As a PERSON! Catherine wrote: >> while it may be true that Joni is capable of complaint and >> bitterness and all that, she is also capable of being kind and generous >> and gracious. I say she is a nice person, and has demonstrated that >>to many of the JMDLers who have been fortunate to meet her. I love your story of how Joni treated you and your sister at the taping, taking time out from going on-stage to chat with you and make sure you had seats and all. Wasn't it you who also saw her do an impromptu "Chiquita banana" dance offstage? And Phyliss wrote: >She was so incredibly kind and gracious to me. Others in our group >have received hugs and kisses too! Observing her close-up during the taping nights and then actually meeting and hugging her, too, gave me a whole new impression of her. I really had always imagined her to be a bit aloof and am still so happily surprised at her massive warmth and outgoing friendliness. >Is it a fault to be brutally honest in >your actions and words? What she's feeling is always written on her >face, and spoken from her lips. You have to admire her for that. Isn't it rather funny that in our culture today someone who is genuine and real is somehow suspect?! Wonder if some people today are so hypnotized by manufactured and contrived images in the press, TV, news, etc., that they are shaken when they encounter someone just being themselves? > But in our society an angry woman is a bitch. Pretty scary! "What's happened to this place?" Kakki NP: Stay in Touch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:21:36 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Inappropriate Covers The Black Crows, "Black Crow" Stevie Nicks, "The Wolf that Lives in Lindsey" Joan Embry, "Taming the Tiger" - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:51:51 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Inappropriate Covers > >The Black Crows, "Black Crow" >Stevie Nicks, "The Wolf That Lives in Lindsey" >Joan Embry, "Taming the Tiger" >-jan > Amy Grant, "The Magdalene Laundries" The Troggs, "Wild Things Run Fast" David Bowie, "Man From Mars" The Cars, "Flat Tires" Melissa Ethridge, "Man To Man" The Knack, "Song For Sharon" Say, this is fun ... Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 16:59:35 -0400 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: Honeymoon(NJC) I'll be off list for about a week and a half. No I'm not mad at anybody. Allison and I are off for or honeymoon tomorrow. Look out Paz... John~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:03:18 EDT From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: patchwork of covers (??JC) BarBearUh wrote Re: patchwork of covers >> > inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? >> >> Tom Waits - the BoHo Dance >actually, i think that would be a great combo. imagine the vocal through the >bullhorn, and some clanking in the background. i'd like it at least. I tried it out before suggesting it and it WAS fun (singing Tom Waits style is possible for as few seconds at least before the vocal chords begin to shred ) . Glad to see an interesting quilt emerging...thamks to everyone for contributing. Ah... Nana Mouskouri - more later. David Mascall (who is a brit but doesn't know Tommy Steele personally ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:03:18 EDT From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: patchwork of covers (??JC) BarBearUh wrote Re: patchwork of covers >> > inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? >> >> Tom Waits - the BoHo Dance >actually, i think that would be a great combo. imagine the vocal through the >bullhorn, and some clanking in the background. i'd like it at least. I tried it out before suggesting it and it WAS fun (singing Tom Waits style is possible for as few seconds at least before the vocal chords begin to shred ) . Glad to see an interesting quilt emerging...thamks to everyone for contributing. Ah... Nana Mouskouri - more later. David Mascall (who is a brit but doesn't know Tommy Steele personally ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:13:32 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: I Love Joni Mitchell! As a PERSON! dear catherine, i like these ideas--they're worth something too, not just wishful thinking. we are after all getting all this negative joni on a subject where she was dealt a trmemndous amount of negativity first. Elsewhere in her life she may be a real day a the beach--and then some. Bet she is, often. And not some other times. Gee sounds like most people. And by the way, I think that article you were trying to remember was in People. Wherein she also told the two idols with feet of clay stories--how joan baez was so jealous and song-cutting when they billed together, and how judy C stood her up for Newport Jazz Fest. Steel trap mind, Santa Claus mentality indeed. All over town. Steel traps catch good and bad things, and Santa remembers who's been nice, as well as naughty, don'tya know? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 09:36:54 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: njc sticks and stones At 10:20 AM 10/7/98 -0600, Winfried wrote: >However unpleasant these cyber-quarrels may be, they might indeed have a >positive side-effect. I personally have become much more aware of how >important it is to make myself clear in my "real-life" (I know this is >also "real life"!) relationships, to avoid giving reason for >misunderstandings and misinterpretations. I also watch my words much >more closely than I used to, and I try very hard to avoid speaking bad >about other people, especially behind their backs. I realize these are >"everyday" human vices, but through the internet, we can learn, how >hurtful and detrimental they can be. Ok, Ill bite, this sounds good in theory......The bottom line for me is that I love Joni Mitchell's music. And I have met quite a few wonderful people here. I cannot deny the social component of this list, and that's where things aren't so black and white. Maybe the people who may not be able to relate to what Im saying here are people who are here for tape tree and concert info....or those people who see the jmdl as a place to lurk and hardly ever post. The 50 or so main posters on the jmdl are on display day after day/year after year, as hundreds of people act as voyeurs. It's not unlike watching characters in a soap when you think about it. It's easy for a non-poster to sit back and enjoy the drama. Who knows, maybe groups of people gather elsewhere in cyberspace to review the latest "episode." Human entertainment. We've got our own Truman show right here. Unfortunately because of the lack of "information" in cyberspace, it's easy to project. People are infinitely curious about others. Try debating someone on a thread, suddenly you can't help but want to know more about where "this person is coming from." The next thing you know people start asking around. Personality-Information becomes a commodity because the supply is low and the demand/curiosity is high. Any kind of information gets chewed up and spit out into all kinds of imaginable, manipulative forms. And negative information spreads like wildfire. The next thing you know, when hosting a party, conditional rsvps pop up, with people saying that they don't want to come if so and so is coming....In fact, they won't come if friends of 'so and so' are coming. Since I have been here for so long, I've come to know a lot of people here, and because I have met a lot of people and hosted a Jonifest---- I am frequently faced with "what's he or she like?" This always puts me in an awkward position. Im damned if I do and damned if I don't. What do I say? Sometimes I've said too much, but more times than not I have defended jmdlers. "Wait, you'll see he/she is really nice," "Give it time," I have said. The bottom line is that these are just my perceptions and Im honest. And I've made my share of mistakes here, and I know that there are people on the list who don't care for me because of this or that. So what else is new? Do you think I like everyone? Ok, I post a lot. Many of us are opinionated, therefore many of you know us better than we know you. It is very easy to sit in judgement when sitting on the sidelines watching the games being played: information is being shared, spelling and grammar errors are made, infomation is disected, sometimes we are funny. mistakes happen, people get involved in heated debates, bringing private disputes to the open list and sometimes fucking up big time. It's a matter of time before the game turns and everybody starts throwing stones: the posters and the voyeurs. The next thing you know people are trying to turn others against each other. Political camps are formed and more jmdlers feel more comfortable meeting off of the list than on. Before you know it, people who rarely post, know more about the posters than the posters themselves. All of the above I am guilty of AT TIMES, but that is only a fraction of my experience here. I have learned my share of lessons and try to apply them, believe me. Sure,Ideally, I guess it's important that we all form our own opinions about our cyberspace jmdlers, but on the other hand, I have a lot of respect for why someone would need additional cues----it is human nature, and if we are compelled to ask someone for an opinion, we should remember that this is all it is---one person's point of view. And that's never going to go away. The longer the person has been active on this list, the more information they hold: a lot of it is nurturing and loving and some of it is tainted. Sometimes a person's character is defined forever by one unfortunate post. This list has wonderful people here who are fans of Joni, and sometimes wonderful people make mistakes. Should a mistake define them? I also think it's important to remember that it takes a degree of balls to be an active participant (poster) to this list. It is a vulnerable position and courageous position to be in. The most active posters are most likely to get into arguments, make social blunders, and shine. We are under a microscope. Pontificating, JulieZW ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #403 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?