From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #401 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, October 6 1998 Volume 03 : Number 401 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Orlando@jmdl.com -Tampa@jmdl.com Sunrise@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- It's Not Just Joni ... ["Don Rowe" ] RE: jw1327 [Louis Lynch ] two grey rooms [SDWS10@aol.com] Re: a coupla things NJC [Phyliss Ward ] In the Bud (JMDL content) [Jason Maloney ] Re: major problems with howard's TTT my review--not all of it is bad [Aze] TTT & Joni review in Time Mag ["M & C Urbanski" ] re: complain complain [JAWebster2@aol.com] RE: two grey rooms ["wallykai" ] RE: a coupla things NJC ["wallykai" ] two grey rooms [SDWS10@aol.com] two grey rooms [SDWS10@aol.com] New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) [Dmascall@aol.com] New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) [Dmascall@aol.com] chili? siquomb? [JAWebster2@aol.com] Tiger, Tyger, [Chuck Eisenhardt ] Re: JM? STAS? [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Her old songs are a part of her [bg26140@binghamton.edu] Re: a coupla things [catman ] Re: a coupla things NJC [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: siquomb? [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: A New Angle on Joni Attitude [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: A New Angle on Joni Attitude [heather ] Lost Joni Digests [Steve Dulson ] Knit you a sweater [Steve Dulson ] pedal steel (vljc) [trxschwa ] RE: Chili/David (NJC) [trxschwa ] Joni's next album ["Happy The Man" ] Festive Joni [Jason Maloney ] Re: Tiger, Tyger, [Mark Domyancich ] RE: a coupla things NJC ["John T. Folden" ] RE: pedal steel (vljc) [Brett Code ] Human Nature [Steve Mixon ] RE: Joni's next album ["John T. Folden" ] RE: Tiger, Tyger, ["John T. Folden" ] A stupid little game...Joni and music catagories ["John T. Folden" ] Re: Surviving A Crisis (NJC) [Mark or Travis ] Re: two grey rooms [Phyliss Ward ] Re: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Re: PGH Gazette, Kurt Cobain - SJC [Marilune@aol.com] Stay Stay Stay [Michael Paz ] What does this remind you of ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: What does this remind you of ["Ken (Slarty)" ] pay per view performance (PPVP!) [Helen Gill ] Song To A Seagull [simon@icu.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 14:29:56 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: It's Not Just Joni ... With all the discussion around the list about Joni's attitude, thought I'd pass along this interesting bit from an interview with John Mellencamp (newly released today, and tasty). See, you don't have to be a SIQUOMB to have an attitude -- "Well we've got a new record coming out, October 6th. And we finally got off that fucking Mercury records. Twenty-five years in that place. I didn't like to bitch in public about it, but it was terrible. They hated me and I didn't like them much. They said I was difficult. I can't even imagine, can you guys? But anyway, so a ... we got a new record coming out, it comes out October 6th. It the first time in 10 years that we've really been excited about putting a record out. Its really a drag to go in there and spend, 6 months, from 11:00 in the morning till 2:00 in the morning, making a record knowing that your gonna give it to a record company. And there gonna go....eehh f***in' Mellencamp. He's been here 25 years, we don't give a shit, we wanna sell Hanson records." Be nice ... kitty, kitty. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:38:44 -0400 From: Louis Lynch Subject: RE: jw1327 In digest 400, jw1327 brings up some good points about the New York Times article. I didn't find it offensive, not in the least. In fact, for the New York Times to delve so deeply into her personality and personna, it shows that she truly has earned a respect and position in the world of music. Of course, the press are going to take a few pot-shots and make a few digs, especially when they have interesting material to exploit. Compare the article's little side comments to the comments about Clinton. Joni Mitchell is interesting material for the media, as evidenced by the wealth of information printed about her. Even with some of the sting, it's obvious that the writer recognizes, nay, envies, her considerable talent. Louis.Lynch@wonderware.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:39:19 EDT From: SDWS10@aol.com Subject: two grey rooms hello folks, im new to this list and to computers...so plz be patient....i have a nagging question that has been on me for a few years now.....not to distract from all the excitment of TTT.....buuuuut.....who is Joni speaking to in TWO GREY ROOMS??? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 14:36:54 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: a coupla things NJC Good point Colin. Isn't there some kind of unwritten rule about politics and religion in conversation? Not everyone believes the same thing. For example, Jews don't think Jesus was the son of god, at least not anymore than we are all his children. catman wrote: > Happy The Man wrote: > >> Sorry dude but I have to disagree with you. You see this dude walked the > > > planet for some 33 years and he was perfect. > > In your idea of him, maybe. > > > In fact the book says he was > > perfect in every way. > > Again the truth of that book is but your interpretaion. > > >Joni has her say in Tax Free Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 22:51:46 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: In the Bud (JMDL content) Fellow JMDL-ers, Bearing in mind what's been happening on here recently, PLEASE let's not now get into a religious argument.......I saw this happen on another list, and it wasn't pleasant! Without wishing to expose myself to flames and accusations of censorship and arrogance, I just wanted to try and make everyone aware that maybe we could all try and nip this potential argument in the bud. With the best intentions, and in good spirit, Jason. PS. My earlier post re. TTT chart positon wasn't meant to sound negative. I was merely stating the facts. At least it entered one place higher than the TV advertised Steve Miller greatest hits.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:56:35 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: major problems with howard's TTT my review--not all of it is bad In a message dated 10/2/98 10:41:08PM, sp@olympus.net writes: << Her VG8 sounds like her VG8. Is it possible that we're just not used to hearing this new setup? I'm wondering if the criticism about her songs sounding the same is because the new sonics are foreign. >> A good point well made - I hadn't thought of it in those terms. That said, I STILL don't like the sound that much. An acoustic guitar has an inherent beauty and simplicity that can never sound boring or unpleasant to me (I'm talking about the sound, obviously, not the way it's played, which can be extremely unpleasant, such as when I'm strumming mine and it's slightly out of tune:-). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:02:09 -0400 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: TTT & Joni review in Time Mag It might be old news, but there's a review in Time mag this week 10/12. It's a positive one. Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:57:37 EDT From: JAWebster2@aol.com Subject: re: complain complain Howard wrote: >>Somebody at that label must be doing something for her because there are reviews of TTT everywhere << Actually, it might just mean she has a good publicist. jessica ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:00:57 -0300 From: "wallykai" Subject: RE: two grey rooms ...who is Joni speaking to >in TWO GREY ROOMS??? According to what she explained, she's playing the role of a gay friend of movie director Fassbaender, who did exactly what the song depicts [rented the two gray rooms, waited until Monday to see the guy he was in love with pass by, etc..] WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:04:10 -0300 From: "wallykai" Subject: RE: a coupla things NJC - -----Original Message----- De: Phyliss Ward Para: catman CC: Happy The Man ; jmdl Fecha: martes 6 de octubre de 1998 15:43 Asunto: Re: a coupla things NJC >Good point Colin. Isn't there some kind of unwritten rule about >politics and religion in conversation? There certainly IS. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:09:15 EDT From: SDWS10@aol.com Subject: two grey rooms Thanks you guys for responding...to think that all these years...i , w/o knowledge,thought she was talking about Chuck...after all, if shes so still beautiful, why shouldnt he be???What ever happened to him anyway?? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:19:53 EDT From: SDWS10@aol.com Subject: two grey rooms where do you get the evidence that she was acting out a gay part...i must have missed it somwhere:-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:29:08 EDT From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) Dear all As posts have become so hot lately that I want to sign on wearing a pair of oven gloves, can I propose a new thread - how about suggesting the most inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? For example, how about the following: Tom Waits - the BoHo Dance Nazareth - This flight tonight (Oops, sorry..it already happened) I hereby rule unilaterally that Celine Dion is out of bounds for this purpose....(or any other) David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:29:09 EDT From: Dmascall@aol.com Subject: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) Dear all As posts have become so hot lately that I want to sign on wearing a pair of oven gloves, can I propose a new thread - how about suggesting the most inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? For example, how about the following: Tom Waits - the BoHo Dance Nazareth - This flight tonight (Oops, sorry..it already happened) I hereby rule unilaterally that Celine Dion is out of bounds for this purpose....(or any other) David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:34:44 EDT From: JAWebster2@aol.com Subject: chili? siquomb? Ok, this is where I expose my total neophyte status. Keep in mind that while I am a huge fan, I have never personally encountered any other huge fans, so there are things that y'all accept as givens that I'm in the dark about. So..... What does Siquomb mean? And....I sure do wish I had joined even a few days sooner. This Chili guy you are all up in arms about must be very interesting. jessica ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 17:28:17 +0000 From: Chuck Eisenhardt Subject: Tiger, Tyger, I can totally forgive our probated Joan for not attributing the 'dark and stormy night' quote (Bulwer Lytton), but I'm a little surprised that she gives no thanks to Blake (unless I missed it entirely) for the tiger couplet. Is this not a pretty large borrowing without attribution? I'd say so... (hey! I just did!) BTW, if Leonard Cohen gets a place in Norton's, why not Joni, and which lyrics? Chuck E ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 22:40:03 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: JM? STAS? Hi Brian and all, Mine too! (that's allowed, right Les?) -Kenny On 10/6/98 Brian Gross wrote: My non-HDCD copy of this first album (Reprise 6293-2) says "Song To A Seagull" on both the disc itself and on the jewel box spine. So much for consistency. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:50:04 -0400 (EDT) From: bg26140@binghamton.edu Subject: Her old songs are a part of her I agree with what Fred said about Joni playing some of her old material in concert. She can change the notes if she can't reach them... it's not like she sticks to the notes religiously anyhow. She usually flutters all over the map. I remembered what she said: "songs are like tattoos". They are a part of you and they stay with you always (at least I like to interpret it that way). Her past songs are a part of her, and she should acknowledge them more often. Of course, the new material should receive the focus, but some of her older material should not be ignored. Also, Joni is not a bitch. I love her and I want you to stop saying that! Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 23:58:07 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: a coupla things The trouble most of us fall into the trap of thinking our ideas and interpretations are Truth when they aren't anything of the sort-just our ideas and beliefs. That is why i find it so pointless to argue about Joni's music. Just because I do not like TTT does not mean I am wrong because others like it. It also doesn't mean that it is a bad record. It only means I don't like it. No amount of differing opinions can make me like it. It is like saying joni is the best singer/songwriter. That is totally subjective-not Truth. The same of course goes for all religions-they are just ideas about the Truth-not Truth itself. It applies to much of science also-theories are not Truth but ideas. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:05:36 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: a coupla things NJC In a message dated 98-10-06 13:31:43 EDT, philipf@tinet.ie writes: << Is that the same dude who tossed some guys out of the temple because he didn't accept their imperfections ? >> is that the same dude who cursed a fig tree and made it wither because it dared not to have fruit when he felt like eating some? hmmmmm. we should all be so perfect. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 98 23:12:45 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: siquomb? Hi Jessica, Joni was into acronyms in the early days: Siquomb -- She Is Queen Undisputed Of Mind Beauty -- was the name of her first music publishing company. (We've revived it with the JMDL T-shirts which say "SIQUOMB, isn't she?") "Sisotowbell Lane" stands for "Somehow In Spite Of Trouble Ours Will Be Ever Lasting Love" -- she's also written (again in the early years) short stories with entire casts of characters whose mythical names were based on acronmys -- there's more info on this on Wally and Les' sites. I think the last instance of acronyms in her recorded work was on the first ablum (whose official name -- "STAS" vs. "Joni Mitchell" -- is often discussed and disputed here -- making it a "recurring" or "re-occuring" thread :-) -Kenny On 10/6/98 JAWebster2@aol.com wrote: Ok, this is where I expose my total neophyte status. Keep in mind that while I am a huge fan, I have never personally encountered any other huge fans, so there are things that y'all accept as givens that I'm in the dark about. So..... What does Siquomb mean? jessica ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:05:38 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: A New Angle on Joni Attitude In a message dated 98-10-06 14:35:58 EDT, dgrowe@hotmail.com writes: << would you complain if your resume looked something like this? Well, you might. If you'd been consistently passed over for promotion, seen more and more company dollars and support go to other projects ... if you watched as your company let product quality plummet without a care as it shamelessly gouged the customer with price increases ... if the awards you received were given to you instead of the raise or promotion you so richly deserved. >> good points all, don. i don't think anyone is saying she doesn't have a beef. but she remains, in many ways, her own worst enemy. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 19:24:09 -0400 From: heather Subject: Re: A New Angle on Joni Attitude At 11:32 AM 10/6/98 PDT, you wrote: > >Well, you might. If you'd been consistently passed over for promotion, >seen more and more company dollars and support go to other projects ... >if you watched as your company let product quality plummet without a >care as it shamelessly gouged the customer with price increases ... if >the awards you received were given to you instead of the raise or >promotion you so richly deserved. You'd probably have a thing or two to >say this point -- at least I would. And if you'd been at a company like >the music business for 30+ years, you'd be in a great position to "tell >all", and really let them have it where it hurts. And Joni's certainly >in that position. > >I say this only because, as I think about it, the typeof things Joni is >saying are not that different from those things I hear my friends and >family say when carping about their job. Thoughts anyone? > I agree with you Don. I have recently (last 6 years) suffered s**t from management in my profession. I told my ex-boss *exactly* what he did wrong. Do I regret it? No. I can see where Joni is coming from and with all her creativity she must feel *extremely* frustrated. Let her say what she must. She vents like we all do sometimes. Maybe she'll have lower blood pressure for it! Heather ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:30:44 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Lost Joni Digests My mail reader has an annoying habit of truncating digests if it sees a single "." on a line - a period, or full stop to you Brits :) - and I have had to go grovelling and begging to Les to re-mail the digests to me without the offending line. He has always done so with grace and good humor! He has now pointed me to the list archives at http://www.smoe.org/lists/joni/ which seem to be absolutely up-to-the-minute, so if you're missing a digest, it's the place to look. Thanks, Les!!! ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:37:05 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Knit you a sweater David Mascall (another Brit? Who else would know Tommy Steele?) writes: >Nice one - I like this thread - or should I say yarn? It's a little pearl >(one). Which just made the connection in my head - Joni's line "I want to knit you a sweater" with the "knitting in bed" story she told at the tapings in May. I hope they leave that in the PPV broadcast - then you'll know what I'm rambling on about... and he also asked: >On another tack, can anyone direct me to any more recorded music by the pedal >steel player on TTT - he does a cracking job. The part on "No apologies" is >magnificent! Jimmie Dale Gilmour's "Borderline", Gillian Welch's "Revival", Joni's "TI", Dave Alvin....Greg Liesz is on LOTS of recordings made in LA in the last few years. Best, ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:21:11 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: pedal steel (vljc) >On another tack, can anyone direct me to any more recorded music by the pedal steel player on TTT - he does a cracking job. The part on "No apologies" is magnificent! i'd already heard that the pedal steel guy, greg leisz was associated with kd lang, and he's on the last four albums. i don't know if he's on 'shadowlands' which is still my favorite kd. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:35:34 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: Chili/David (NJC) folks, maybe this thread is important as a discussion on how we treat each other. >David has endured <> attacks without attacking back - - this is not cowardice, but class! actually, as others have pointed out, david has not been heard from much lately. most newer folks don't know who he is. and this is where i begin to get irked. basically, david has given nothing to the list in months. the only finger he has lifted has been to send a private message, because he didn't like chili's public posts. he's unhappy with the content of the list, but this is all the effort he can manage to change it. he didn't start a new thread, join a discussion, even tell us what he thinks of the new album. just a short little insult, privately. class? has chili been dominating? well, we've been through patrick gluts, colin gluts, marsha gluts, michael y gluts, mariana gluts ayktmbm. we're headed for a susan of morro bay glut and i'm glad. these are just part of the flow of the list, and a good part, it's how we get to know each other. i completely respect anyone's desire to lurk, but i can't respect david's private attack on the make-up of the list, when he contributes so little. patrick, who thinks the jmdl is sorely aging-diva-farewell deprived and intends to prepare a few of them posthaste. np - underworld - second toughest in the infants ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:52:04 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: Joni's next album During the interview with Jody Denberg Joni hinted at a album of covers saying she wants to take a break from songwriting and just be a singer. To the point of not even touring this album and going back into the studio to do so. Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 01:09:45 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Festive Joni Maybe it's a UK-only trait, but Joni's version of my Best To You could stand a great chance of chart success if released as a "Christmas" single.......it's one of those records that often strike gold at that time of year. It might also provide a nice sales boost to TTT.... Just a thought. Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:03:23 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Tiger, Tyger, I'm pretty sure that Donald Freed wrote the lyrics to Crazy Cries of Love. I NP-Wolf That Lives In Lindsey (I think I'm the only one who listens to Mingus these days!) :-) Chuck Eisenhardt wrote: > I can totally forgive our probated Joan for not attributing > the 'dark and stormy night' quote (Bulwer Lytton), but I'm > a little surprised that she gives no thanks to Blake (unless > I missed it entirely) for the tiger couplet. ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | | | "Every disc a poker chip, every | | song just a one-night stand." | | -Joni Mitchell | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:05:58 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: RE: a coupla things NJC > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Happy > The Man > Sorry dude but I have to disagree with you. You see this dude walked the > planet for some 33 years and he was perfect. > > In fact the book says he was perfect in every way. So there you go. Ummm, last time I checked, that book was written by men - regular, normal, imperfect human beings. ...and as many times as the stories were retold/rewritten I have a big feeling there was quite a bit that was forgotten, ingored, altered and exagerated. I mean, if you believe it word for word, then don't let me stop you...but nothing you say can be pointed to as fact. > I think the reason he was so > perfect was much like your Mom, you see he accepted people no matter what > their imperfections. He did? Me thinks you should research again... John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:31:33 -0600 From: Brett Code Subject: RE: pedal steel (vljc) He's also listed on Jann Arden's cd, Happy, as playing not only pedal steel guitar, but also electric guitar, baritone guitar, electric slide guitar, lap steel guitar and acoustic guitar. They spelled 'pedal' right (not peddle), but on at least one occasion, they called him, Gary (unless his brother was playing on the cd). Brett - ---------- From: trxschwa Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 5:21 PM To: 'Bounced Message'; joni@smoe.org Subject: pedal steel (vljc) >On another tack, can anyone direct me to any more recorded music by the pedal steel player on TTT - he does a cracking job. The part on "No apologies" is magnificent! i'd already heard that the pedal steel guy, greg leisz was associated with kd lang, and he's on the last four albums. i don't know if he's on 'shadowlands' which is still my favorite kd. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 17:55:37 -0700 From: Steve Mixon Subject: Human Nature Thought we might want to reflect on her own words: THE FIDDLE AND THE DRUM And so once again My dear Johnny my dear friend And so once again you are fightin' us all And when I ask you why You raise your sticks and cry, and I fall Oh, my friend How did you come To trade the fiddle for the drum You say I have turned Like the enemies you've earned But I can remember All the good things you are And so I ask you please Can I help you find the peace and the star Oh, my friend What time is this To trade the handshake for the fist And so once again Oh, America my friend And so once again You are fighting us all And when we ask you why You raise your sticks and cry and we fall Oh, my friend How did you come To trade the fiddle for the drum You say we have turned Like the enemies you've earned But we can remember All the good things you are And so we ask you please Can we help you find the peace and the star Oh my friend We have all come To fear the beating of your drum Leslie Steve Mixon http://www.cruzio.com/~stevem ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:43:36 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: RE: Joni's next album > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Happy > The Man > During the interview with Jody Denberg Joni hinted at a album of covers > saying she wants to take a break from songwriting and just be a > singer. To > the point of not even touring this album and going back into the studio to > do so. Which reminds me, didn't Joni complain in a recent interview about loosing 20 songs because she's touring. That kind of struck me as odd considering that she hasn't been particularly productive during the 90's and has toured very little up until now. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:45:41 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: RE: Tiger, Tyger, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Mark > Domyancich > NP-Wolf That Lives In Lindsey (I think I'm the only one who listens to > Mingus these days!) :-) Nope! It gets semi-regular play from me in the car. Not as much as HOSL, HEJIRA or TI but more than her first two or three discs. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:10:54 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: A stupid little game...Joni and music catagories Ok, I've got something to work your brains... I'm having a discussion on music with a few friends and we're trying to decide what artists have covered a lot of ground musically. Can any of you help me out by naming all the catagories Joni has covered (jazz, folk, R&B, etc...) and possibly provide examples. Thanks a bunch! John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 18:12:22 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Chili/David (NJC) Kakki wrote: > My 2-cents suggestion/plea: Can we all please strive not to bring our > private wars onto the public list? It can be so destructive. > > Kakki Once again breaking list etiquette I have so say right-on, Kakki. I agree 100%. But I *still* don't like the idea of people scaring new listers off by sending them rude personal email. I'm not saying that this happened in this incident with Chili/David. I recognize that David's words were taken out of context. I'm certainly not intending to pass judgement on him or Chili. But I've read several people's posts saying they almost quit from the outset because of rude personal emails they got from other list members. And yes, Julie, I understand that people mistake identities, messages are mis-interpreted, etc, etc (thanks for the reminder, I love ya kiddo). But if there is anyone sending hurtful emails to people just because they don't like what they say or how they say it, with the intent of forcing them to stop posting, I say STOP IT! NOW! Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 18:16:18 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Surviving A Crisis (NJC) Don Rowe wrote: > > With all that's been going on around here recently, thought I'd pass on > these ... > > Thoughts For Surviving A Crisis > > 1. Indecision is the key to flexibility. This (and our dear Kakki's post) really made me laugh. Thanks to both of you. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:15:32 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: David's Response I'm sure the list is tiring of all this by now, and let me begin by saying that my intention here is not to prolong the thread, but to end it. I have never attempted to dictate to this list what it should or should not be. I was foolish enough to engage in an exchange of PRIVATE posts with Chili, and I was even more foolish in countering some of his harsh rhetoric with my own harsh words. It is true that I have not posted much in the last couple of months, but I can't see how that fact has anything to do with my right to private communications. I resent having my private posts made public, and I resent being mischaracterized and attacked by people who do not know me nor the context in which I said what I did. However, I brought this upon myself, and I will have to live with it. I want to thank Kakki, Michael Y, Wallyk, Mary P, and others who have risen to my defense. All that being said, I offer my sincere apologies to Chili. May we now move on? David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:10:21 -0300 From: "wallykai" Subject: RE: two grey rooms - -----Original Message----- De: SDWS10@aol.com Para: joni@smoe.org Fecha: martes 6 de octubre de 1998 16:24 Asunto: two grey rooms >where do you get the evidence that she was acting out a gay part...i must have >missed it somwhere:-) From the Come in from the Cold video anthology. She talks about the song and what inspired it. WallyK > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 18:34:35 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: two grey rooms Where is this interview? I've heard all the tape trees and read a lot of the articles at jmdl.com and haven't come across it. wallykai wrote: > ...who is Joni speaking to > >in TWO GREY ROOMS??? > > According to what she explained, she's playing the role of a gay friend of > movie director Fassbaender, who did exactly what the song depicts [rented > the two gray rooms, waited until Monday to see the guy he was in love with > pass by, etc..] > WallyK - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:05:28 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) > how about suggesting the most > inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? William Shatner, A Case of You Mariah Carey, Sisotowbell Lane ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:52:47 -0300 From: "wallykai" Subject: RE: two grey rooms - -----Original Message----- De: Phyliss Ward Para: wallykai CC: SDWS10@aol.com ; joni@smoe.org Fecha: martes 6 de octubre de 1998 19:35 Asunto: Re: two grey rooms >Where is this interview? I've heard all the tape trees and read a lot of the >articles at jmdl.com and haven't come across it. It's a commercially available video collection. I'm sure I haven't dreamed this up, though I have the flu, so maybe it's the fever. Anyone out there knows the video anthology I'm talking about? The one where Joni does Beat of Black Wings in make up [hey, you thought I was gonna say blackface, eh?]. During the interviews she has this HUGE amount of red lipstick on and she looks more than ever like a double Scorpio. Massive cheekbones and eagle eyes. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:55:34 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: PGH Gazette, Kurt Cobain - SJC i'm a nirvana fan. i think they produced some of the most original, amazing music that ever came out of the grunge "seattle" scene. i don't call kurt cobain my hero, but i think his lyrics were some interesting, and in some cases deep. in the guise of hard rock, some were really depressing. i know this is going to sound cheesy, but ever hear the Tori Amos version of "Smells Like Teen Spirit"? Without the hard-rocking guitars and drums, it's really really depressing: "With the lights out, it's less dangerous/ Here we are now/ Entertain us/ I feel stupid and contagious/ Here we are now/ Entertain us..." Other favorite Cobain penned lyrics: "If you ever need anything please don't hesitate/ To ask someone else first/ I'm too busy acting like I'm not naive/ I've seen it all, I was here first." and "Just because you're paranoid/ Don't mean they're not after you..." i don't mean to put my foot in my mouth, but I think Joni has put HER foot in her mouth. "whiny", huh? Joni's done her fair share of whining, I do believe. so kurt wasn't destined for the world. i can appreciate his music and lyrics. if joni can't, great. fine. OH WELL. i just feel as though joni is taking a tragedy and some VERY inventive music and basically putting a label on it. AND THIS IS OKAY, it's just so very very alienating. let me repeat: kurt is not my hero. I don't intend to follow his road and end up the way he did. but there is no need to completely bash one type of music and one man just because you don't like them. On the state of pop: sure there's some bad stuff. but there's some GREAT AMAZING AND BEAUTIFUL stuff out there too! why focus on the spice girls and backstreet boyz ('cos their so close to the street, they don't even CARE about misspelling) of the world when you can indulge in Elliott Smiths and Sarah McLachlans and Foo Fighters and other such wonderful stuff. Joni dearest: LAY OFF. i feel like such a traitor every time i listen to a nirvana record now and i'd rather love you both than have one or the other. no glamorization of death here, but i like what i like. and you know, i feel as though i should get a special cd holder for your discs just 'cos you'd hate being shoved next to the likes of Fugazi, The Breeders, and heavens to betsy NIRVANA. it's gonna get awful lonely up there on your pedestal. - -mariana NP: The Foo Fighters, -The Colour and The Shape- (i don't CARE what anyone else thinks. i LOVE the foos.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 21:03:09 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Stay Stay Stay Say say say what you want... Julian is wandering around the studio singing, Stay, Stay, Stay (DMB). Me thinks this be a message. What is the emoticon for a befuddled face? Love Michael NP-Julian Ethan Paz Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 22:04:50 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: What does this remind you of Have you ever heard a song that reminds you of a totally unrelated song by someone else. I'll give you an example. Jewel has a song that gets a lot of air play where I live. I'm not sure of the name of it but if I remember correctly she wears a satin blue dress in the video and it looks like they use a cyan filter on the camera. Anyway when I hear this song I always think of Elvis Costellos "Watching The Detectives" which I usually end up humming to myself. Anyway this also has happened when I heard the song Taming The Tiger by Joni. It took me a long time to put my finger on the song it reminds me of but today it hit me. If you ever get a chance listen to a song on Stevie Wonders double album The Secret Life Of Plants called Power Flower. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 22:10:13 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: What does this remind you of Concerning that Jewel song: My daughter just past by and she tells me the name of that song is Foolish Games. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:22:34 +1000 (EST) From: Helen Gill Subject: pay per view performance (PPVP!) okay everyone, hands up... if you want........to tape a copy of the pay per view thing for me! you will be rewarded with whatever gifts i can think of to bestow on you, don't you worry about that. awaiting an abundance of replies.... Helly. (who doesn't think Lead Balloon is so bad...its just like her funny 80s stuff, makes me laugh. The Big Boo Hoo didn't cause the slightest flinch for me...UNLIKE the nice kitty kitty (wince)...being a dog person myself I muttered upon hearing it "sic her rover". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 22:25:00 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) Deb Messling wrote: > > how about suggesting the most > > inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? Barry White-Circle Game Bob Dylan-Paprika Plains Leon Redbone-Taxfree ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 22:23:18 -0400 From: Janet Hess Subject: Re: New threads - a patchwork of covers (SJC) Wayne Newton, "Turbulent Indigo" > how about suggesting the most >inappropriate artists to cover Joni songs? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:26:38 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: Transcript of Joni talking about "Two Grey Rooms" I do love this song. Here's part of what Joni says on the "Come In From The Cold" video: "For seven years I tried to find a libretto or story that would be suitable for it (the melody), and also I was attached to these vowels that aren't common in English. Finally I found a story about a fellow who was part of Fasbinder's scene -- homosexual, aristocrat, German -- who had had a lover in his youth that he never got over, and in his forties he discovered the route by which this guy went to work in the morning and in the evenng, at a certain time. So he moved out of his fancy digs and into these crummy rooms overlooking the street for the sole pleasure of seeing the man walk by in the morning, and walk back in the evening." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:30:32 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: RE: Stay Stay Stay > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Paz > What is the emoticon for a befuddled face? How about? :-S ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:32:09 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Song To A Seagull RE: Joni Mitchell's 1st Album, titled "SONG TO A SEAGULL" previously posted to the JMDL Digest ~ Aug. 15, 1997 ~ Vol. 2 #244 Subject: SONG TO A SEAGULL Date: Fri. Aug. 15, 1997 previously - this past May - there was a thread dealing with questions and the confusion surrounding the title of Joni Mitchell's first album. on Fri. May 2, 1997 - Deb Messling posted ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >Joni has said the first album is called 'Joni Mitchell'. In his >interview with Wally, David Crosby says she was originally going to >call it 'Song to a Seagull' but changed her mind. >__________________________________________________________________________ NOT really, but i guess that's what Crosby thinks. later that day ... Bradley Fors posted ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >Lastly, It doesn't say 'Song To A Seagull' on the spine of the record. >Thus perhaps the confusion. But lets attempt to put the raging debate >to rest. The LP is called 'Song to a Seagull'. >__________________________________________________________________________ Bradley is correct here, but it didn't end the debate. on Sun. May 4, 1997 ... Deb Messling posted ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >I'll dig up the article where Joni says flatly "It was called Joni >Mitchell." In any case, whatever she was originally going to call it, >it IS called 'Joni Mitchell'. The authoritative source would be the >Library of Congress, and that's what it's called there. > >If you go by the LP cover, it should be called 'Soni to a Seagui' >because at least on my copy, the G and the LL's are cut off. >__________________________________________________________________________ also on May 4, 1997 ... >---------------------- > Title mystery solved >---------------------- > >The following is from the incredible 1995 Goldmine article, >"Joni Mitchell A-Gogh-Gogh." > >'Joni Mitchell' was released in March 1968, and the first thing to say >about it is to confirm that the title was 'Joni Mitchell'. The album's >cover, a painting by Mitchell surrounding a tiny photograph of her, >features a grouping of birds that spell out the words 'Song To A >Seagull' the title of one of the songs ... this led many people to call >the album 'Song to a Seagull'. > >Mitchell, when informed of this, expressed surprise. "People can't see >them," she said of the birds, "and the L is cut off, cause even the >graphics department, they didn't see it either. >It's called 'Joni Mitchell'. >__________________________________________________________________________ the Goldmine article is a cover-story, with a fantastic photo of Joni. although it does say Joni Mitchell A-Gogh-Gogh on the cover, the article is actually titled; "Joni Mitchell: From Blue To Indigo". though they may be authoritative in a number of areas, the Library of Congress is NOT the final authority on LP/CD titles. frankly i doubt whether they do anything more than list the title from the spine of an album or compact disc. NO, the authoritative source of an LP/CD title is the musician whose name is on the cover AND/OR the record company issuing the recording in the first place. in the case of Joni Mitchell's first album, the record company screwed up. the correct title SONG TO A SEAGULL never appeared on any vinyl edition. it also wasn't included on the first CD versions issued, although this oversight/mistake has finally been corrected. the remastered version is clearly identified as SONG TO A SEAGULL on both the spine of the jewel box and the face of the CD. [remastered *artwork* only]. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK, so that's where the thread ended. let's see if this can be cleared up once-and-for-all, to everyone's satisfaction. first off, Deb does quote the Goldmine article accurately. it appeared in Issue #380 ~ Vol.21, No.4 ~ Feb. 17, 1995. now i've read Goldmine for years. their articles are well written, well researched, and they also correct mistakes. that brings me to the first of six sources of information. ___________________________________________________________________________ 1. GOLDMINE MAGAZINE ~ April 14, 1995 ~ LETTERS TO THE EDITOR. the following letter from William Ruhlmann, author of "Joni Mitchell: From Blue To Indigo", was printed with a boldface header ... BOTH SIDES NOW: MITCHELL and GEFFEN CLARIFY POINTS IN ARTICLE Two of the more careful readers of my article, "Joni Mitchell: From Blue To Indigo" (issue 380), were Joni Mitchell and David Geffen. Both of them have contacted me subsequently, and with their help i am able to clarify a few points made in the article. The article contained a description of the confusion surrounding the title of Mitchell's 1968 debut album. I pointed out that JONI MITCHELL is the "official" title. Mitchell, however, wishes to note that SONG TO A SEAGULL was the title she intended for the album, though somehow that intention got lost when the album was being pressed, and the error has never been corrected. ___________________________________________________________________________ 2. ICE MAGAZINE ~ September 1996 ~ The CD WATCHDOG Column We received a postcard mailed by Ben Testa of Brooklyn, NY, stating simply. "Some of the early Joni Mitchell catalog titles have stickers on them, saying they're repackaged with original artwork. Are they worth buying, and are they remastered as well?" But first things first. To find out about the new artwork, we contacted Robbie Cavolina, a freelance art director who works closely with Mitchell and who recently won a Grammy Award for designing her "Turbulent Indido" CD. Robbie then says ..... "One important note to make, which isn't widely known: her first album is not called JONI MITCHELL, it's called SONG TO A SEAGULL, and it's correctly titled now. It's so nice to see these looking like they're supposed to." __________________________________________________________________________ 3. CALIFORNIA ROCK - CALIFORNIA SOUND, (c) 1978 by Anthony Fawcett ~ Photographs by Henry Diltz In addition to an interesting Joni Chapter "Searching For Clarity", this book also contains a discography listing Joni Mitchell's albums thru 'Don Juan's Reckless Daughter'. it starts off with ... SONG TO A SEAGULL, 1967 (Reprise) ___________________________________________________________________________ 4. CLUB 47 ~ CAMBRIDGE, MA. ~ Jan. 4, 1968 JONI: Introducing the song 'The Pirate Of Penance' says ... "I'm finally going to make --- I uh. I just signed my contract with Reprise, that's Repreese not Reprize, i learned how to say it right too, and uh --- it should be coming out some time this spring. and it should be kind of fun too, because it's --- well it's sort of a story. it's going to be called SONG TO A SEAGULL, which is a story, and all of the songs that make up the record repeat that story. and in the part where we take you down to the seaside --- it's called out of the city and down to the seaside section of the record --- some very strange stories of the sea happen and among them is a song that i wrote about --- well i don't really know what it's about. it's sort of, it's almost like suddenly in the song a character appeared to me that should be a dominate character some day in an operetta --- and so because it was sort of like a lead character in an operetta --- i took liberty with Gilbert & Sullivan and --- stole part of their title. i call this The Pirate Of Penance. i hope you like bad puns too." ___________________________________________________________________________ 5. BILLBOARD MAGAZINE ~ December 9, 1995 "A Portrait Of The Artist" by Timothy White "Few musicians of her stature have undergone more private and public trials. At the beginning, she had to fend off imitators and detractors of both sexes, plus the persistent jealousy of an early '60s folk school whose post-Dylan commercial/artistic strides she almost singlehandedly eclipsed with three hugely influential Reprise albums (Joni Mitchell: SONG TO A SEAGULL, 1968; CLOUDS, 1969; LADIES OF THE CANYON, 1970)" ___________________________________________________________________________ Last but *not* Least 6. THE 1969 WARNER-REPRISE RECORD SHOW Reprise #PRO-336 (2 LP Sampler - released 1970) this was the first in a series of 2-LP samplers sold by mail-order. it contained one song and two short (0:40) song introductions. the liner notes say ... "The Fiddle And The Drum." A song about wars fought by men and nations, sung without accompaniment for the very simple reason that Joni offered to her sold-out Carnegie Hall audience before she begins to. From her CLOUDS LP (Reprise 6341), which was preceded by SONG TO A SEAGULL (Reprise 6293) and followed by LADIES OF THE CANYON (6376). ___________________________________________________________________________ seems to me this last paragraph settles the issue *by itself*. here we have Warner-Reprise Records CLEARLY identifying Reprise #6293 _as_ SONG TO A SEAGULL _in_ 1970! i rest my case, thank-you. - ------- simon - ------- 1998 Update ~ Additions: 7. HITS & MISSES CD 'Inserts' list all Joni's Albums w/cover photos. 1st album (Reprise #6293) listed *as* Song To A Seagull. 8. The JONI MITCHELL SONGBOOK: Complete volume 1 (1966-1970) (c) 1974 Siquomb Publishing Corp. contains all songs from Joni's 1st -3- albums, listed as follows: Song To A Seagull Clouds Ladies Of The Canyon 9. "JONI MITCHELL" by Leonore Fleischer (c) 1976 All references to Joni's 1st album are *as* Song To A Seagull. (pg 12,21,57,65) 10. Magazine Article, ZIGZAG 69 ~ feb. 1977: Joni Mitchell says, "The first album *was called* "Song To A Seagull" and i used that as a continuity. i found that "Song To A Seagull" was a summary of all the songs i'd ever written." 11. ROLLING STONE Magazine, March 4, 1971: "New York gave her the inspiration to write the songs on her first album 'Songs To A Seagull', produced by David Crosby. The cover had fine pen-and-ink drawings and Joni's picture was on the back, from a fisheye lens on a New York backstreet." 12. MELODY MAKER, Sept. 28, 1968: JONI, The Seagull From Saskatoon by Karl Dallas "And the first song in the album, 'I Had A King' is about the breakup of my marriage." "The album is one of the few I can think of - the others that spring to mind are "Sgt. Pepper" and the Mothers of Invention LPs - which successfully hangs together as a complete whole." The title, written so subtly by the wings of flying seagulls on the cover that few people notice it; is "Song To A Seagull". The first side is called "I Came To The City" and the second side is called "Out of the City and Down to the Seaside." Both are lines from songs on the second side. *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #401 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?