From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #398 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, October 5 1998 Volume 03 : Number 398 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Orlando@jmdl.com -Tampa@jmdl.com Sunrise@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: (NJC) a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now [LRFye] Shortcomings in us all - SJC [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] (SJC) And I'll Huff ... And I'll -- ["Don Rowe" ] tuning difficulties ["John M. Lind" ] Re: Howard's post -Reply [Sumiko Keay ] Re: Joni bumper stickers [David Wright ] Re: new member Hello [catman ] RE: Reprise and jonimitchell.com [Michael Yarbrough ] to the power of 3(NJC) ["John M. Lind" ] Re: (SJC) And I'll Huff ... And I'll -- [Gellerray@aol.com] SIQUOMB jewelry [JAN201@aol.com] Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now(NJC) -Reply ["Steven A. Blue" ] Re: chilehead ["Steven A. Blue" ] Joni vs. Dylan In The Press [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: (SJC) And I'll Huff ... And I'll -- [TerryM2442@aol.com] additional joni stuff [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Re: Joni the oldies wurlitzer ["Philipf" ] Re: to the power of 3(NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Lucinda Williams on W54th - NJC [Cblakey5@aol.com] Re: (SJC) And I'll Huff ... And I'll -- ["Don Rowe" ] NJC: Sandboxes [Chilihead2@aol.com] Re: Reprise and jonimitchell.com ["Philipf" ] Re: to the power of 3(NJC) ["John M. Lind" ] Re: Shortcomings in us all - SJC ["Kakki" ] in defense of joni's attitude [Cblakey5@aol.com] people yawn, people fart: people are human [joe horne ] Joni & encores [sherrie.good@chronicle.com] Re: Joni the oldies wurlitzer ["Don Rowe" ] Re: Lucinda Williams on W54th - NJC [sherrie.good@chronicle.com] To Chili (NJC) [Mark Domyancich ] Re: in defense of joni's attitude ["Don Rowe" ] Re: To Chili (NJC) [heather ] Re: "Complain, Complain" (VLJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: To Chili (NJC) [Les Irvin ] Hi, I'm new! [JAWebster2@aol.com] Re: Joni & encores [Gellerray@aol.com] Re: To Chili (NJC) [Les Irvin ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:50:30 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC) a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now Brian: Please do not leave the list. Please do use (NJC) more often. : ) David: Please don't leave the list. Please do use your Delete key when appropriate. Lori San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:01:44 -0700 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Shortcomings in us all - SJC One of my favorite list members, Marian, writes: >>Thank you for sharing this about your friend with Aids. It is such a perfect contrast to JM's pettiness and bitching. More and more I am becoming tired of hearing her complaints about how badly she has been treated. And more and more I think she must be partly responsible and should bear some of the blame for it. == This nicely dovetails with my Sunday brunch conversation with my daughter, Signe. She has graciously lived with the jmdl since I subscribed and the resulting "hey Sig, what do you think of this one?!" At brunch, Signe and I were talking about what appears to be Joni's pettiness. Signe pointed out that in she bristles at the "qualifying" label of "female" singer/songwriter, yet has no problem calling Bjork a "firey little thing." A compliment given and then made less. We then discussed the seemingly impossible task of welding a "nice" nature to an artistic one. Can it be done? What is it within an intensely creative person that seems to obliterate any inner, personal work on being "nice?" We sat and thought and could not come up with an artist who seemed to be able to embrace the overall goodness that I think is so important to a successful life with intense creativity. Signe felt that since creativity forces a constant focus on one's self, it's easier to fall into the "everything circles around me" or "poor me" trap. On the other hand, the two of us could come up with few truly good people that we knew, so perhaps the harder job for anyone, creative or not, is to be nice. MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 11:15:36 -0500 From: Sumiko Keay Subject: Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now (NJC) -Reply Don't leave the list!! If the list can't stand opposing pov's than there's something seriously wrong with the list -- not w/you! Sumiko >>> 10/04/98 10:17pm >>> In a message dated 10/4/98 11:08:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Chilihead2@aol.com writes: << I will not be censored. If however the list as a whole thinks it would be best for me to leave, I will be happy to oblige. >> Chili, Please don't even think about leaving. Everyone has a place here. Anyone who doesn't like a post has a delete button if they so choose. "We just come from such different sets of circumstance." Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:35:32 -0700 From: al date Subject: JM-JukeboxTM, a joint venture First, I have to cast my vote for the Official JMDL Book of Recipes. Nothing to disagree with on Phoenix's swan song, except that it is probably more difficult for Joni to go backwards and perform "ancient" material than most of us wannabe musicians can imagine. I think it is difficult for her both technically (especially with the VG-8) and emotionally (not really wanting to intently revisit stuff which she now finds laughable or irrelevant). And I doubt that this will change. Joni is pretty much set in her ways, and no amount of love or money will change her now. There's a lot of wishin and hopin, but yer lucky to get Woodstock and BYT out of her. That's it. You will never hear her perform live ONE TUNE from her first three albums. But the important thing is that a great body of music exists, which she has created, and which, with our efforts, may live forever or a long time, whichever comes first. The lack of JM self-promotion presents an opportunity for JM-lovin' entrepreneurial minds: "JM-Jukebox"TM. Brainstorming, JM-Jukebox is a loosely organized but highly talented group of musicians dedicated to the faithful reproduction of Joni Mitchell songs which are abandoned by their author, but which remain popular among a wide audience, who would enjoy hearing these tunes in live concert. [I'm pretty sure this market exists; whether it could be tapped profitably is quite another matter, to be sure.] The main benefits of such a group would be to give aspiring musicians a chance to learn/perform JM guitar chordings, and aspiring vocalists a chance to attempt to sing even better than Joni. If she won't, or cannot, self-promote, and we truly love her music, let's do it for her. Great People like Marian Russell and Sue McNamara have paved the way for this effort; I am just giving it a form/ name. New and future generations need to hear this music, and live is definitely better than recorded. Time to get off our butts and carry on the legacy! To avoid travel costs, a JM-Jukebox could spring up anywhere there was a guitarist and a vocalist, or both in one person, willing to book themselves locally. And, once a year, we could all get together (now that's an original idea) and have a JM-Jukebox Battle of the Bands, and vote ourselves the Best JM-Jukebox in the World! YAH! And, of course, they would all jam together at the end!! Who knows, with all these official JM impersonators, maybe the real Joni would show up, just for grins. Oh, and having claimed the JM-Jukebox trademark, I hereby give it freely to anyone who wants to use it to help promote Joni's orphaned music, if they are willing to share it with others of a similar mind (and play me Sisotowbell Lane sometime before I get old). Just to get the ball rolling, I will put up $200 prize money for the Best JM-Jukebox at the next Jonifest. Any entrants/prize donors? email me at ald@sj.bigger.net or call 408 774-8651 (work-msg) - --Al Date Somehow in spite of trouble, ours will be ever lasting love ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:41:14 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: (SJC) And I'll Huff ... And I'll -- Well, well ... well. Nothing like getting back to your computer and finding 247 New Messages in the old mailbox. Just a couple of things. What Joni says to the press, how she gripes about the music biz, what she writes on the walls of Chicago theatres could matter to me not one tinker's damn. I'm with those who are in it for the music. If Joni would just shut up and play, then we could all just shut up and listen, and that would suit me just fine. Now with those thoughts in mind -- what's all this huffing and puffing about? Out of nowhere, the JMDL is filling up with playground taunts, hurt feelings, "stay please stays" and stomping off with the toys. You know, this kind of grade school behavior is what makes lists tiresome. This is the first time I've seen in here, and I hope it's the last for a while. And last but not least -- anyone who takes seriously anything they read in the NYT gets only what they so richly deserve. They're just like Hard Copy -- with bigger words. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 12:46:04 -0400 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: tuning difficulties Jan wrote: >Bob Dylan went electric, many fans didn't like it. Miles Davis went electric (and never went back), many fans didn't like it. I love it. Miles' electric stuff is my favorite. >Joni goes VG8, ... I think it's totally sensible to use the VG8's digital technology to emulate different tunings on a single guitar. I agree. I think the problem so many people have is the tone and timbre of the patch used for the open tunings in the VG8. Joni said something on 'Morning Becomes Eclectic' about the guy from Roland being more of a "note player" while she is a "chordal player" and that the VG8 could only do the tuning trick with one sound, which he(the Roland guy) set up for her. She said his stlye of playing influenced the sound he picked for the tuning patches. This explans why the sound is so frequently the same. It also seems pretty evident that she must like it the way it sounds. If she didn't I'm sure she'd have gone to Roland and had them change it by now. I find the sound just a little too wet(bordering on murky) for my taste but it could certainly be worse and at least it's kind of unique. >Retuning all the time is a big pain- ever try to tune a 12 string? Yes. If you think that's bad try tuning a sitar(7 primary strings and 11 sympathetics underneath the primarys). John~ NP "Carpet Of The Sun" - Rennaisance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:11:30 -0500 From: Sumiko Keay Subject: Re: Howard's post -Reply I think that you must be correct about her music reflecting a smaller circle of friends. Did you read the article in the Sunday NY Times Magazine? She mentions that the new album really doesn't reflect her current concerns -- which are much more family and friend centered. Perhaps, I should say even more family and friend centered! >>> "Julie Z. Webb" 10/03/98 04:27pm >>> At 07:03 PM 10/2/98 -0500, Howard M, the famous video guy from Chicago,wrote: >metal. I don't want all folk or acoustic or no changes in a person's >musical career but I also don't want monotony in tone or texture or >melody. Howard Moytl, I completely agree here---where's the piano? My impressions of TTT have changed a bit from the first day I bought it. I've been listening to TTT a couple of times a day, and indeed, Im growing fond of it. (I love Man from Mars.) But Im not sure that the reason it's growing on me is due to my desire to make it work, because of my experience of being a part of this list. I **do** think that too many songs sound the same....in fact, it's as if the painter and the poet in her have taken the upper hand: she is singing her poetry. Maybe it has something to do with how she "somehow bungles tying choruses and verses together." Now for a little projection: To me, Joni's lyrics seem to reflect her overall attitude of irritation and isolationist-habits to a greater degree. Yes, she is in love again, but I get the feeling that her world includes an inreasingly small inner-circle of people she is close to, (but who isn't that true of when reaching a certain age?!?! But mentioning people at her local cafe?!?!) "Man From Mars", she sings with such feeling---it's so sad and touching: But it's about a cat, I wish I didn't know that. Although she says that Kilauren and Marlin have filled a hole in her life, I get the sense that she's not having as much fun these days. Even in the throes of her new found love, it seems she manages to hear the faint ticking of a time bomb counting down to the time when it's over. >>Last thought. Joni said this morning, her painting is more important to he >>than her music. That is where she spends her time. I think TTT says that. I >>think the best quality to the whole disc is the cover. That is where the rich >>detail is we're used to hearing. Only now it is seen, not heard. The cover >>shows the present Joni best. Even better than the music. I agree with this too... The passion and feeling of her paintings are a sincere example of how beautiful expressions of art can become so powerful and persuasive...even seductive...and how the power of 'packaging,' which is typically not so true and sincere---can feel manipulative. Upon opening up the cd and undressing it, I wanted to like the music partially because of those beautiful paintings. The art work, right down to the cd to the painting of the cat imbedded in the cd holder----is very moving . (Id love to see a thread reviewing each painting.) >When I heard Trouble Man, I was stoked for TTT--this was a Joni singing >like I had rarely heard her, with heart, soul and lungs poured into the >songs. I love her rendition of "Trouble Man!" In fact I've decided that Id love to see her go into the direction of bringing her unique style to other people's music. Howard writes: >I am the same Howard who wrote the post about TTT and received two >responses, one from pj, privately and here, and one privately from >another person. I was surprised at this. I have felt snubbed in the >past few weeks by the list when I post. As pj said, shunned, like an >Amish shunning. I felt this before pj said anything about it. Howard, I think, at times, everybody on this list feels this way. It's part of the dynamics of internet communication. Im pretty up front about struggling with this as well, and I've decided, for the most part, it's a reflection of my own insecurity. I also think that there are a lot more people who agree with 'this or that,' but typically don't send emails stating "Way to Go, Bro!" Although at times, the jmdl, seems to be a feedback/response forum: This is not often the case. It's never clear to me why one thread is more apt to fly over another. And it's rarely personal. One of the most popular posters from way back, posted a humorous JC thread to add onto and no one responded: I have no idea why. I guess if anybody expects to be stimulated with a response or counter-opinion, they are in for a disappointment...and then just when you think no one is going to respond to something you've thrown out----- it happens. Also, the people who often post are the minority of the list----and they hardly make up a focus group, especially if the membership is as high as it is. No response/feedback does not mean you are being shunned. (I've been pleasantly surprised and encouraged by private emails and at various Jonifests, when people come up to me---complimenting me on a NJC movie review or my opinion on a jc thread that I had long forgotten about.) I also think that a lot of people are hesitant to express anything negative, controversial or even NJC subjects that semi-relate. I know this is so, because I get more email than I ever have before---from people who, for whatever reason, choose not to express their opinions on this list. There is also a majority of the jmdlers on digest, who complain that once they find the time to read the digest and post----the thread is too old. And then there also the few who inhibit themselves, because they truly believe that Joni might be reading the list, which I sincerely doubt, but I can appreciate that perspective Howard, as well as the other Howard, I think I speak for many in saying that we enjoy your contributions here. -JulieZW ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 17:25:22 +0100 From: David Wright Subject: Re: Joni bumper stickers Michael Y. wrote: >Who's to know what kind of control Reprise would want over the >sites once they granted "official" status by promoting them this >way? This has come up before on the list, and I seem to remember >Marsha telling a not-so-happy story about some Gino Vannelli sites >after his record company got involved. I can't see how Reprise acknowledging Wally's site, and directing fans to a source of further information, would put Wally under any sort of legal obligation to them, unless they had some sort of agreement beforehand, not that I have anything on which to base this thought other than common sense (I know, I know, impossibly naive of me when dealing with corporations!). I remember Marsha's story, but it seemed a slightly different case to me, in which the record company and the fans had some sort of arrangement beforehand (with the fans sending photos to the record company, etc.) -- unlike Wally's pre-existing site. - --David NP: Sarah McLachlan, _Surfacing_ (flatmate's) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 18:30:01 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: new member Hello Glad you joined Tom. Be warned there is loads of daily mail from this list. How are you enjoying(or not) TTT? colin Manning, Thomas (Tom) wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I'm new to this "Joni" list. (thanks to Colin) > > I was born and raised in NYC (the Bronx), > I'm just gettin used to Colorado. (goin on 12 years now!) > > > take care, > tom - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:57:23 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Reprise and jonimitchell.com David wrote: <<>> No legal obligation maybe, but access to information about, say, tour dates, broadcast appearances, new single and album releases, etc., often comes at a price. Right now they have a mutually beneficial relationship, but I would be careful before getting much closer. In many ways the relationship between a webmaster and a record company is like that of a reporter and a politician--they both need each other, so legal controls become much less important than tit-for-tat playground ethics. In any case, I'm sure Wally's doing a great job of negotiating just how much contact with Reprise he thinks is appropriate. - --Michael, who's already worked in DC too long to trust anybody NP: Judiciary Committee yapping... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:53:10 -0400 From: "John M. Lind" Subject: to the power of 3(NJC) 'Just read the digest notice about Gene Autry. Yet more fodder for the old superstition about famous people always dying in threes: Gene Autry, Betty Carter, Roddy McDowell. John~ NP "Mother Russia" - Renaissance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:04:27 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: (SJC) And I'll Huff ... And I'll -- good one don--good one. some perspective really suits you (not that you lack it other wise)! we are certainly seeming to be lacking in it lately! maybe indeed we are all like overexcited children--whipped up by the new release, the tour and joni's press. just plain whipped up! hysterical what you said about the Times--you really think so? I wish I could say that with authority. I don't no know much about newspapers i guess. I rarely make it to the editorial page--and you kinda gotta to really know. I guess. I don't know. I'm gonna mull that one. And try to make it to the editorial page more often. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:30:31 EDT From: JAN201@aol.com Subject: SIQUOMB jewelry Listers, you are going to be SO jealous when you see what I have! My sister is a jeweler and she made me a flat sterling bangle bracelet that says "SIQUOMB, isn't she?" on it! It's so great! I'll definitely be taking orders for them at the NY show! You're gonna love it! Later- Jan in Hoboken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:27:18 -0000 From: "Steven A. Blue" Subject: Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now(NJC) -Reply Chili! Don't sweat it, you know there's a place for you! Signed, Your brother! - -----Original Message----- From: Sumiko Keay To: joni@smoe.org Date: Monday, October 05, 1998 4:18 PM Subject: Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now(NJC) -Reply >Don't leave the list!! If the list can't stand opposing pov's than >there's something seriously wrong with the list -- not w/you! > >Sumiko > >>>> 10/04/98 10:17pm >>> >In a message dated 10/4/98 11:08:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >Chilihead2@aol.com writes: > ><< I will not be censored. If however the list as a whole thinks it >would be >best for me to leave, I will be happy to oblige. >> > >Chili, > >Please don't even think about leaving. Everyone has a place here. >Anyone who >doesn't like a post has a delete button if they so choose. "We just >come from >such different sets of circumstance." > >Hugs, >Ashara > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:38:52 EDT From: PMcfad@aol.com Subject: chilehead can anyone explain to me why the chilehead was asked to leave the list and who asked him to do so? pj ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:41:30 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Shortcomings in us all - SJC In a message dated 10/5/98 12:01:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MGV1@valley- media.com writes: << We sat and thought and could not come up with an artist who seemed to be able to embrace the overall goodness that I think is so important to a successful life with intense creativity. Signe felt that since creativity forces a constant focus on one's self, it's easier to fall into the "everything circles around me" or "poor me" trap. >> MG, Your daughter is certainly perceptive and introspective. Being creative does demand being self absorbed, which makes me wonder sometimes what comes first- a creativity needing to be expressed, or an ego that needs to be expressed. Thinking about Picasso, here was a genius that was so preoccupied with his own need fullfillment! But..from what (little) I've read about Matisse, he was quite different. He was a giving, loving man who had a sunny disposition. I wonder if all great artists have to be narcissitic, y'know? At any rate, I've been reading this love/hate bantering of of Joni's personality and I've just come to the conclussion that she is what she is. I don't need to love her as a person. I just love her work. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:38:19 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: feedback from me and to me SJC Hey there I don't pick up my email over the weekend and there were a lot of folks who responded to tell me that I wasn't being shunned. I appreciate that and will be less sensitive next time. And now I know that we don't have to be Joni cheerleaders all the time. That said, this past weekend, I listened to TTT a lot--this is the usual MO with a new JM album, for all of us, I will assume. And Man on Mars is a great, great song. It jumps out, for me, as the best song on the album. (Although I agree with Julie here that I wish I didn't know it is about a cat--so I project it into Grace of My Heart because there it was about a person.) And I also began to like an awful lot the tune/music of No Apologies. The lyrics are another story . . . what is this song about? I know others have talked about this, too. It begins with Japanese internment camps (From WWII? Right?) and then goes into the little tyrant verse and I am lost. Even the chorus--Tire skids and teeth marks . . . these are the most obvious signs of America being laid to waste? and what do tire skids and teeth marks have to do with lawyers and loan sharks--ok, ok maybe the lawyers I can see. But loan sharks? I know someone else asked this question also. Are loan sharks supposed to mean some other profession? And loan sharks was used for the rhyme? Oh, I am ragging again and I really wanted to talk about the great song Man on Mars. This one really breaks my heart. And what is interesting are the echoes in this song of other songs--for instance, when she talks about hearing the cat/person in the sounds of the night, she says she hears him in the wires in the walls--as in Edith and the Kingpin, she wrote "the wires in the wall are hummin', some song, some mysterious song" . . . Maybe I will rag more later . . . Howard M NP: Other Voices, Other Rooms, too "Anytime you have the opportunity to accomplish something and you don't, you are wasting your time on this earth." Roberto Clemente ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:38:34 -0000 From: "Steven A. Blue" Subject: Re: chilehead OK, let's hear it! Why? - -----Original Message----- From: PMcfad@aol.com To: joni@smoe.org Date: Monday, October 05, 1998 6:42 PM Subject: chilehead >can anyone explain to me why the chilehead was asked to leave the list and who >asked him to do so? pj ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:45:43 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Joni vs. Dylan In The Press Not being a huge Dylan fan, I've never really followed how the press sizes him up, so I was wondering if he gets the same treatment that Joni has gotten recently. Now isn't he a guy that could give a shit about what people think of him? Does that attitude reflect in how the interviewer writes about him? Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:49:25 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: (SJC) And I'll Huff ... And I'll -- In a message dated 10/5/98 1:35:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dgrowe@hotmail.com writes: << what's all this huffing and puffing about? Out of nowhere, the JMDL is filling up with playground taunts, hurt feelings, "stay please stays" and stomping off with the toys. >> I tink ze list eez acting like ze children at Chreesmas Time do ven ze last prezent eez opened. Maybe zay are upset mit dis being ze last present from Joni for de next four years. Now, go haf your tantrums in de otter room. Go. Dr. SigMondegreen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 12:08:33 -0700 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: additional joni stuff While at Borders this weekend, I noticed that Joni is the featured artist of the month. Let's think about their promotion of this one: Her new CD is admittedly up with the new releases. It is, however, way below eye level and not displayed in a way that tells me she is a featured artist, kumquat or espresso flavor of the day. Her catalogue in stock excludes such gems as "FTR," "Court and Spark," and "Hejira." They did have 5 copies each of "Hits" and "Misses." I would have investigated further, but I was shopping with a teen. "nuff said. Anyone else see this at their Borders or is this just specific to Davis? MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:13:49 +0100 From: "Philipf" Subject: Re: Joni the oldies wurlitzer Fred wrote: >>>Remember her "paint a starry night again man" rant. > >I'm almost involuntarily compelled to respond to this every time it >resurfaces: as much as I dearly love Joni, she was/is wrong about this> Don't agree. I will be quite happy if I never hear Chelsea Morning or The Good Samaritan again and I gather Joni is happy never to sing them. So at least two of us are happy. They were ok at the time but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now as Bob Dylan might say, if we asked the old buzzard for a comment that is. > James Taylor does it, Keith Jarrett does it, Tony Bennett does it, > Yo Yo Ma does it. Joni can do it, James Taylor is stuck in 1970's timewarp. I saw him on telly last year and it was virtually the same concert I witnessed in '72. Philip NP Gregson and Collister - Home is where the Heart is. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:19:59 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: to the power of 3(NJC) In a message dated 10/5/98 1:58:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jml@amweaver.com writes: << Just read the digest notice about Gene Autry. Yet more fodder for the old superstition about famous people always dying in threes: Gene Autry, Betty Carter, Roddy McDowell. >> It was my understanding after nearly two decades working for daily newspapers that the "three" had to have some similarity other than being famous, as in three actors, three musicians or three amigos. How you could link these three is beyond me. Maybe Gene Autry, Roy Rogers and ???? Or when Roddy McDowell dies, then maybe Mickey Rooney and another child actor ought not to buy green bananas. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:23:37 EDT From: Cblakey5@aol.com Subject: Lucinda Williams on W54th - NJC There seems to be mant LW fans around here. I found out too late that she was featured on W54th. I was wondering if any one did catch this and perhaps captured it on video.... carole jp: you turn me on...(on the radio) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 12:27:04 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: (SJC) And I'll Huff ... And I'll -- Dear Dr. SigMondegreen >I tink ze list eez acting like ze children at Chreesmas Time do ven ze last >prezent eez opened. Maybe zay are upset mit dis being ze last present from >Joni for de next four years. Now, go haf your tantrums in de otter room. Go. > >Dr. SigMondegreen > Gee I feel like a great weight has, you know, been taken from my shoulders and hauled away in a $30k luxury sport utility vehicle! You're the greatest! Oh, is my time up? ;-) Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:27:17 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: NJC: Sandboxes Hi, I want to say thank to all the friends I have met here and I will continue to stay in touch. I do not wish to appear childish or immature. But I have found that every where you go in life is a sandbox. Whether you're in a corporate boardroom or here in the JMDL. Somebody in effect said I wasn't playing nice and asked me to leave in a blunt rude way without explaining why I should. Enough about it. I am sure that my posts bore the shit out of some people and infuriate others.Some have found them interesting. I am a very tolerant person. Some people are not. I have a rainbow flag hanging in my picture window. Some people taunt me for it. It is not coming down. But I am getting out of here. When I read things I don't agree with, I read them. No offense to Les he is a perfect gentleman and works hard to keep this going. I have set up a new list. If you would like to be on it because you find my psycho cyber journal interesting along with my obsession for my own navel and Mrs. Chili's you can subscribe just by posting to me! LOL And I am laughing it all the way. :-) This is too funny, being censored on the JMDL! Kind of an oxymoron don't you think? - -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:32:15 +0100 From: "Philipf" Subject: Re: Reprise and jonimitchell.com ><< Subject: Re: to the power of 3(NJC) >Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 15:30:46 -0400 >To: IVPAUL42@aol.com >From: "John M. Lind" >Subject: Re: to the power of 3(NJC) >In-Reply-To: <73f5f5db.36191bdf@aol.com> > >Paul wrote: > >>It was my understanding after nearly two decades working for daily newspapers >>that the "three" had to have some similarity other than being famous, as in >>three actors, three musicians or three amigos. >> How you could link these three is beyond me. >> Maybe Gene Autry, Roy Rogers and ???? >> Or when Roddy McDowell dies, then maybe Mickey Rooney and another child >>actor ought not to buy green bananas. >> Paul I > >You're being a little too literally minded here, I think, Paul. They are(were) all entertainers if I'm not mistaken. Oh, and, "green bananas"?? > >John~ >NP "Music Selector Is The Soul Reflector" - Deee-Lite ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:31:24 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Shortcomings in us all - SJC Terry wrote: >Your daughter is certainly perceptive and introspective. Being >creative does demand being self absorbed, which makes me >wonder sometimes what comes first- a creativity needing to be >expressed, or an ego that needs to be expressed. Good question. Maybe it's a little bit of both. While they do have strong egos, I don't think that creativity is just a byproduct of aberrant ego function. There has been interesting research over the past several decades on what makes a person highly creative. There are indications that creative people physiologically have a higher sensitivity and reaction to their surroundings - for example, many see colors and hear sounds more intensely than the norm. Studies of brain waves in creative people indicate that they are primarily in alpha mode while the norm is in beta. In a real sense they are "different" than "normal" people. >Thinking about Picasso, here was a genius that was so preoccupied >with his own need fullfillment! But..from what (little) I've read about >Matisse, he was quite different. He was a giving, loving man who >had a sunny disposition. >I wonder if all great artists have to be narcissitic, y'know? Maybe they all have at least a touch of it. There are probably many factors that would contribute to it. The majority of artists I know personally are pretty good and psychologically healthy people. The creative people I've known who have let their egos and/or narcissism get out of control have been the ones who have felt frustrated or thwarted in their path. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:45:49 EDT From: Cblakey5@aol.com Subject: in defense of joni's attitude I can't help but feel for Joni when we, as a group, inspect and dissect her words and actions. Why can't she be allowed to be human? I know I have a few bad days and say things I later regret. The older I get (now 43) the more I am able to accept the apparent contrdictions in myself. Imperfections. I am also less willing to play to play other people's games. I admire her for her ability to set limits with others and keep a private life. She is the person of accumulated life experiences. I can respect that. I can also give her the benefit of the doubt as I would want. thanks for listening, carole ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:51:16 -0700 (PDT) From: joe horne Subject: people yawn, people fart: people are human Someone said: "I pity the yawning man in the front row. He has money but lacks manners. How sad." Now that seems like a drastic statement. I yawn at all sorts of inappropriate times (concerts, lectures, recitals, etc) not because I'm not enjoying it but because I'm tired, sleepy or distracted. Yes, Joni is an artist and hyper-sensitive. I am too sometimes. However, it seems so petty to not do an encore based on a single person's uncontrolable action. I also wanted to say that it seems obvious we all respect Joni Mitchell as an artist - otherwise we wouldn't be on this list. That's why it's important for us to look at her and her work with a critical eye. We can't just post "I love Joni" & "I love Blue" all the time. Joni is not perfect. She's written less than perfect songs. Who hasn't? I think there's filler in everyone's catalog. The different views and opinions are what makes this list interesting to me, even when the posts are not about Jonique. I bet this post made you yawn (or fart)!! ;) my best to you! joejoejoejoejoejoejoejoejoejoejoejoe (in atlanta I will politely hand out flyers requesting that audience members not yawn) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:01:26 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: in defense of joni's attitude Cblakey wrote: <<>> I don't think anyone's forbidding her humanity. I for one just think that her faults are an important part of the whole picture, just as her strengths, and merit discussion from time to time. That's all. Nothing more. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:14:40 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: Joni & encores I admit, I have not been paying attention to the list lately, but was there some complaining about Joni not doing an encore at a show? It caught my attention because the very, very, very best time I saw her in concert (in 1976) she did not do an encore at that show (William & Mary). I've told this story before. I was right up in front, by the stool she had some notes on. Those were still the days when you could 'rush the stage' (sorry Steve...). I had decided I would give her my undivided attention. No thoughts, just listen. She was divine, and after the last song, I turned around to my friends and said, "she is not coming back out." I knew she was finished. It was perfect. Folks were bitching... moving around, and that is when a stage hand came over and scooped up the roses that were sitting in front of the drum set. He walked over to the stage edge, and bent down towards me to hand the roses down. All hands went up, but mine. I didn't think he was giving them to me until he stood back up, shook his head no, then bent down again and gave them to me. This is to say, as in any case, artist do not owe audiences encores. And to expect one, to me, makes them a cheap gift. Sherrie NP: Taming the Tiger ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:44:15 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Joni the oldies wurlitzer On Joni playing the old standbys, Philip writes ... >Don't agree. I will be quite happy if I never hear Chelsea Morning >or The Good Samaritan again and I gather Joni is happy never >to sing them. So at least two of us are happy. They were ok at the >time but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now as Bob >Dylan might say, if we asked the old buzzard for a comment that is. > Okay, granted, we really don't need to hear "Both Sides Now". But IMHO, 'Barangrill' or 'Flat Tires', or 'Talk to Me' are a lot less tired than the 'BYT/Woodstock' combo she's been playing out on tour recently. Not that I'm complaining mind you, afterall, a chance to see her live is good enough for me ... she could sing "The Big Rock Candy Mountain" for all I really care. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:57:06 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: Re: Lucinda Williams on W54th - NJC All I can say is, "waaaaaahhhhhhh... boo hoo" I missed her on Leno the other night. After suffering through his monologue, I passed out and woke up when Conan was signing off. I do have some recent footage of her on Letterman and Conan, both times singing "Right On Time." Does anyone know the tune she sang on Leno. I am going to see her twice this month! Sherrie who will keep her eyes out for W54th reruns ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:23:07 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: To Chili (NJC) Well, I suppose it's too late to change matters now, but I wanted to post at least something about Chili's leaving. As some of you may remember, I was a total jerk last year to practically everyone on this list. I eventually was booted for my opinions and it took about a month of "I'm Sorry"'s to get Les' approval of getting back on. Since then I have been a good boy, for the most part. So, my point is, I had to lose that opinionation (Is that a word?) when I got back on. And I envy Chili for being so open on his beliefs because I know I can't act like that anymore despite everyone's comments about "This would be a boring list if we never disagreed." I agree on that to an extent, but I hate making enemies and I sure as Hell won't do that here any more! Please, Chili, if you're still here, screw those who think you should leave. Don't let someone decide for you. Mark ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | | | "Every disc a poker chip, every | | song just a one-night stand." | | -Joni Mitchell | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 14:45:56 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: in defense of joni's attitude Carole writes ... >I can't help but feel for Joni when we, as a group, inspect and dissect her >words and actions. Why can't she be allowed to be human? I know I have a few >bad days and say things I later regret. > >The older I get (now 43) the more I am able to accept the apparent >contrdictions in myself. Imperfections. I am also less willing to play to >play other people's games. I admire her for her ability to set limits with >others and keep a private life. She is the person of accumulated life >experiences. I can respect that. I can also give her the benefit of the >doubt as I would want. > >thanks for listening, carole > I tend to agree with you. It seems that the "Cult of Tolerance" is growing, and that putting up with things is becoming a singular virtue. One only need look so far as recent political polls to get a drift of this. Well artists don't just put up with things. If they don't like something, they express it. And if Joni is becoming increasingly intolerant of the music biz and its faults, then so be it. Sure she might be 'dead right' and will be duly chastised by the gods of marketing -- but I'm much more interested in Joni speaking her peace, even writing songs like "Taming the Tiger". Just because it is considered virtuous to tolerate an unfair situation does not make that situation any less unfair -- tolerance rights no wrongs. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 17:55:37 -0400 From: heather Subject: Re: To Chili (NJC) At 04:23 PM 10/5/98 -0500, you wrote: > >As some of you may remember, I was a total jerk last year to practically >everyone on this list. I eventually was booted for my opinions and it took >about a month of "I'm Sorry"'s to get Les' approval of getting back on. >Since then I have been a good boy, for the most part. > >So, my point is, I had to lose that opinionation (Is that a word?) when I >got back on. And I envy Chili for being so open on his beliefs because I >know I can't act like that anymore despite everyone's comments about "This >would be a boring list if we never disagreed." I agree on that to an >extent, but I hate making enemies and I sure as Hell won't do that here any >more! > Everyone- I must give credit where credit is due .... it was Mark who convinced me to stay on this list. When I first joined this list I got some awful private posts from certain people on the JMDL. I thought "gee I was all excited to find that other people who like Joni and I can share my thoughts." I can tell you all that I was really bummed by those posts. Mark shared his experience with me and I'm glad he did. I have met some wonderful people on this list. I'm glad I stuck around. Those people who were rude to me .... well the almighty delete key swings the axe! I wish Mr. Chilihead would stay also. Then again, he's so close by, I think one of these ol' days I'll go visit him! I guess I better run on outta here ... Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 16:04:47 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: "Complain, Complain" (VLJC) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 23:31:21 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Colin wrote: > Joni is an ordinary human being like the rest of us, with her plusses and > minuses. We might think it better not to judge her for that. We don't have > to like or love her just respect her. > That's exactly how I see it. I'd also like to see her behave a little less arrogantly once in a while, but hey, I'd also like to win the big lottery jackpot every weekend -- just won't get it! Also, despite Joni's strong personality and honesty speaking through all of her appearances, we shouldn't completely rule out the possibility that we still get a distorted picture of her through the media. You all know how it works... she says something inappropriate once, but 200 newspapers and 500 TV stations report it, amplifying the whole thing ad nauseam. I'm quite sure there are many people who actually are really glad about her arrogant behavior, because it allows them to lash back out at her, without having to deal with her justified and necessary criticism. Above all, it's media people (journalists) who think they are infallible and who need to be criticized. My TTT copy arrived today. So far, I've played it once, without really listening closely or looking at the lyrics. Nothing really grabbed my attention. But I'm still very much digging Laura Nyro at the moment, that's probably why Joni Mitchell sounds a bit dull to me at first listening. Winfried, whose "Perfect Joni" would write Joni lyrics, Laura Nyro melodies, and posess Dalai Lama manners. NP: Laura Nyro -- Smile ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 16:11:52 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: To Chili (NJC) From: Chilihead2@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:59:31 EDT Hi Mark, Thank you for your kind words. I am opposed to censorship in any forms. To me book burning and censorship (even as a metaphor) is up there with baby killing. I do not feel as though the JMDL is a place where one can discuss ideas openly. I am not trying to be a "brat", I just feel very strongly about this. It is Les's list. If he decides that he wants me outta here. I would still expect the courtesy of knowing why. I believe Les to be a fair man and I think he would do this. When David sent me a private e-mail requesting me in an unfriendly and hostile way to quit the list without any explanation, I realized this was a place where I did not want to be. In my opinion that sort of behavior should not be condoned. I am not suggesting that David be exiled but I think that this sort of thing is rude and unnecessary. I don't need it. Since some of the rules are codified with regard to the JMDL, I am making the following suggestion. If someone feels someone should be banned from the list they should not send a private nasty gram, they should at least address the issue politely and publicly to try to RESOLVE the issue like adults should; however, this was not the case. Out of the blue I get a nastygram to leave period. This is a matter of principle. Censorship is Tryanny pure and simple. If someone wants to pontificate on their latest pasta creations then I think they should have every right to do it here. Hit your delete button if this is uninteresting to you. We all don't read every section of the newspaper. Apparently, I was mistaken on the liberalness of this forum. It seems as long as your discussing Joni and Joni issues in a favorable light, your conversation is permitted. Cross the line and your told to go. I know that Mrs. Chili and I are part of the JMDL community. I am thankful to everyone for bringing me to the point where I know now Joni is a human just like me not a goddess, and I admire her all the more. Respectfully submitted, - -Chili PS. If you want to be on my list where there will be no CENSORSHIP and anything goes, please e-mail me. Les has offered me resources for an alternative list and I may take him up on it. Les, I mean no disrespect to you. This was the equivalent of a slap by Mr. Marine and I don't it think it should be overlooked. I challenge each of you to put yourselves in my shoes, if someone sent you an e-mail asking you to leave the list and that they had very little respect for you. What would you do? This is my way of handling it. I am talking it out. END OF STORY. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:43:40 EDT From: JAWebster2@aol.com Subject: Hi, I'm new! Hello. I've just joined this list, and look forward to some great JM dialogues. I'm afraid my co-workers (I'm the jazz buyer for the Borders chain) have grown tired of me trying to engage them in conversations about Joni. Just bought my tickets for the Detroit show. My Warner rep was pretty sure he could get me comps, but there was no way I was leaving anything to chance. Will anyone on this list be at that show? - -jessica ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:49:13 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni & encores good point and great post sherrie. how i would have loved to have been there. r ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 16:52:27 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: To Chili (NJC) At 04:11 PM 10/5/98 , Chili wrote: >I do not feel as though the JMDL is a place where one can discuss ideas >openly. I am not trying to be a "brat", I just feel very strongly about this. >It is Les's list. If he decides that he wants me outta here. I would still >expect the courtesy of knowing why. I believe Les to be a fair man and I think >he would do this. All - I have always advocated a fair, open, unmoderated, uncensored list. I see no reason why Chili (or anyone else) should leave at this point. I see nothing in his conduct to warrant this. The only thing I ask is that there are no publically-posted mean-spirited attacks on another individual. Attacks via personal email are, however, beyond my control. Les ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #398 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?