From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #397 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, October 5 1998 Volume 03 : Number 397 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Orlando@jmdl.com -Tampa@jmdl.com Sunrise@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Washington Blade review [pswmusic@interport.net (Esquizito)] Re "Complain, Complain," Joni, at Fantasy Island [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Joni the oldies wurlitzer [FredNow@aol.com] Re: TTT and Gas [Gerald McNamara ] RE: My final posting ["wallykai" ] RE: accolades and honors.... ["wallykai" ] Taming the Tiger thoughts [Robert Holliston ] Journal: NYC (NJC) [Robert Holliston ] Re: accolades and honors.... [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: The NY Times Article [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Re "Complain, Complain," Joni, at Fantasy Island [catman ] Howards on the list [Howard Wright ] Re: NYT Who's to blame? [JRMCo1@aol.com] VG8 and TTT noises [Howard Wright ] Re "Complain, Complain," Joni ["Philipf" ] Re: Happy Birthday Jackson Browne [Dreamzvill@aol.com] Re: Happy Birthday Jackson Browne [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni was a Member of The Mamas and Papas ["Phil Klein" ] new member Hello ["Manning, Thomas (Tom)" ] njc Re: Saying Good-bye to my Father- Chili poem 2 [Bill Dollinger ] Re: The NY Times Article [Jerry Notaro ] a coupla things [Hassan Zubairi ] Re: Just in on Excite [Phyliss Ward ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 03:03:14 -0400 (EDT) From: pswmusic@interport.net (Esquizito) Subject: Re: Washington Blade review >i've seen john kelly--several times Ez. In fact, I count him as a friend and >he tipped me and my (once) boyfriend Colin off about the night Joni was to >attend and so we reserved (at Fez) and went and there she was all night long >and there was John too and it was a brillant evening. Ooh, Aah! >I don't live in New York though anymore, (since January)... Yeah, after 14 years, I'm outta this big old greasy hole myself in one month or two. God willing! >have you seen john? Shared a bill with him (and many other people) once during his Jazz Passengers collaboration days. Went to see his "own thang" at St. Ann's Church a couple of years ago - he did encore with BLUE though. I made a conscious choice not to see "Paved Paradise" last year, i.e. it was underwritten by Phillip Morris - and I'm a prude about such corperate arts sponsorship. But I suppose the irony is brilliant given La Mitchell's addiction - and JK's promo shot was the HEJIRA cover - complete with cig. I like John's focus, his falsetto, I'm not crazy about. :-) Esquizito ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:20:53 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re "Complain, Complain," Joni, at Fantasy Island Chilihead2@aol.com wrote: > I guess its just because I know people (for ex. with Aids) > who live their lives fully without complaining who have a lot > to complain about. One of my friends is full blown. He reads, > he paints, he plays guitar. He writes and reads poetry and > has a very full passionate life ... He lives more in one > week than most of us do in a year. Thank you for sharing this about your friend with Aids. It is such a perfect contrast to JM's pettiness and bitching. More and more I am becoming tired of hearing her complaints about how badly she has been treated. And more and more I think she must be partly responsible and should bear some of the blame for it. > So you see when I see Joni and all her success and hear > about the complaining, I really can't understand it. When > I heard about the Chicago incident, where she didn't do an > encore because someone yawned, that sounded a little mean > spirited and childish. . I'm really glad that you were brave enough to bring up the subject of Joni's pettiness. I felt very disappointed in her when I read about the Chicago incident. I guess I just expect that anyone who can write such deep verse as Hejira would not be so petty as to get bent out of shape and punish a whole audience (most of whom had paid quite a lot of cash to be there) just because one person yawned. I can think of many good reasons why someone might have yawned which would have been unrelated to the interest or lack of it in Joni's performance. She must, on a certain level, be very insecure (or ?????? - help me out here) if she can take such great offense at such a small thing. I guess I had always imagined that she was much more gracious and good-natured. This story about the yawn and her reaction has been like icewater on my admiration, and I'm not sure it will ever recover. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 03:23:00 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni the oldies wurlitzer "Philipf" wrote : >>Remember her "paint a starry night again man" rant. I'm almost involuntarily compelled to respond to this every time it resurfaces: as much as I dearly love Joni, she was/is wrong about this; it's a faulty syllogism. A painter painting is analogous to a composer composing, not a performer performing. Quite rightly, a composer, and a painter, should strive to avoid recreating previous works. But a performer breathes new life into the same works year after year; that's their art. James Taylor does it, Keith Jarrett does it, Tony Bennett does it, Yo Yo Ma does it. Joni can do it, too, if only ... Songs are made to be sung more than once. Moreover, if a piece of music ever once was good, it's still good (Bach's Cello Suites, for example), and bears countless performances, each hoping for a fresh perspective. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 7:32:35 UTC From: Gerald McNamara Subject: Re: TTT and Gas Like Vanessa and Helen, I'm sick of having cold showers and fearful of having a heart attack as the water hits the skin. The re-elected conservative government leaves me cold as well. However, I've found TTT in the shops. It's available from Basement Discs here in the city (Melbourne) and costs $35 which is the equivalent of $US20.95 There's been some airplay on radio so far, but I doubt that the album will make the charts, unlike the new Cold Chisel album that was released today. -Gerald McN ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:29:56 -0300 From: "wallykai" Subject: RE: My final posting Dear Paul, I'm truly sorry you're leaving the list. I so much agree with you on many of the issues you've discussed on your last [maybe only latest?] post. I'm still not ready to share my opinions on TTT and other topics related to Joni's latter-day persona, but reading your post and those of others has helped me evaluate my ideas significantly. I hope you'll re-consider your decision. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:34:15 -0300 From: "wallykai" Subject: RE: accolades and honors.... Although I hate to do anything that would contribute to inflating ric's ego any further, I must admit that he has a point. I love Joni as much as anybody else on this list, but I have to say that I too think that she's been rather churlish lately. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 01:39:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: Taming the Tiger thoughts Hey everyone, Taming the Tiger has been in my discman more or less all the time, and I just LOVE this CD! The overall sound - particularly the guitar (and guitar "orchestra") is gorgeous to my ears, and her singing is perfect for every song: sometimes sinuous and sexy (Harlem in Havana), sometimes sweetly expressive (Man From Mars), then biting and raucous (Lead Balloon) or wistfully melancholy (Face Lift). I wasn't prepared for the intimate delivery of Crazy Cries of Love after hearing a more abandoned rendition of it in Vancouver, but it's certainly growing on me (I'm very happy to have both available). And the paintings! For so many years, the high-water mark of her album art has been, for me, Mingus - I think TTT at least equals that standard. This will almost certainly be the last studio album of original material that Joni releases in the 1990s, and it's been a great decade for her (IMHO, a better one than the '80s). Of course, she was more prolific - and her development more marked - during the 1970s, but NRH, TI, and now TTT are albums to treasure for a lifetime. She isn't mining the extended metaphor any longer - which she did masterfully in Amelia and Don Juan's Reckless Daughter. I'll never complain about that again - I'm really loving what she's doing now. Thread suggestion: what if Joni really does go into the studio to record an album of standards with a full orchestra sometime soon? What selections would you like her to do? Here are a few of my own spontaneous little ideas: Body and Soul Round Midnight Cry Me a River Everything Happens to Me A Gershwin tune (Our Love is Here to Stay) A Piaf number (Milord?) Stella By Starlight something by Noel Coward (she likes The Master) something country-ish (San Antonio Rose - for our Lori ;-) at this point, something light and up-tempo... love to all, Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 01:39:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: Journal: NYC (NJC) Well, it's been two weeks now, and I just wanted to share a few memories from my recent visit to New York, which was really a great JMDL gathering right from the beginning: Ric very kindly picked me up at the airport: we made it into Manhattan, and had a terrific first visit up on the roof of the hotel - the ideal place to "get to know" an old friend and to see some of the Manhattan skyline for the first time! The next day, after a long and exhilarating sightseeing walk, Ric and I met Patrick Leader at the Met - and it sure was great to meet him at last, too! (When it was time for me to leave NY - way too soon :-( - Patrick escorted me all the way to JFK.) Our dinner party at tanti baci was joyous and convivial as well as delicious: Patrick made the perfect choice. Joni's doppelganger (aka Pearl) and her husband Steve were up from Florida (Jonilistas have the best timing ;-): it was lovely to meet them, Kay, Dawn, and Barbara, and to see Kenny and Steven again after our fun party in Vancouver. Need I say there was a lot of lively and vigorous Joni-related conversation that evening? As we progressed from dinner party to party party, we hit a few more lively night spots - my memory of the early morning hours is pretty fuzzy (and I know I'm not the only one ;-) [note to self: yes, Roberto, there *is* such a thing as too many martinis] On Monday, I had the great pleasure of meeting another lister who has become a genuine personal friend - Heather made the trek from Connecticut and we all had a super afternoon together which included a visit to MoMA. I shouldn't take up too much more bandwidth with other highlights - although walking across the Brooklyn Bridge, seeing the amazing American art at the Whitney Museum, and attending a jazz/dance performance at the Brooklyn Academy of Music (which featured the legendary Max Roach, who once worked with Charles Mingus) were all unforgettable. Then there was a most excellent bar called Around The Clock.... I loved New York and immediately felt at home there, so this was a really wonderful holiday. But meeting and getting to know fellow listers was the greatest highlight of all: that was what made it special. For several months now, it's been a particular and unique pleasure to meet other people on this amazing list - in Victoria, Vancouver, London, and now New York. May there be more soon! So, thanks and big hugs to all my JMDL friends, and very special thanks and affection to Ric and Patrick, for all the great times and for so thoughtfully taking such good care of this starry-eyed Canuck! I'll be back in April - yipee!!! Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:03:34 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: accolades and honors.... RickieLee1@aol.com wrote: > i got to thinking about that song. as much as i love it (and as > much as lindsay love's it) the lyrics are in my extremely > humble opinion, about the phoniest bunch of crap to ever > come from the pen of our pal, joni. "accolades and honors, > one false move and you're a goner....BORING" oh come off > it joni. what a load of crap. you LOVE the accolades and the > honors because you feel, AS DO I (i hasten to remind you) > that there is no one in music today more deserving of them. > am i the only one who thinks these lyrics are transparently false? I totally agree with your assessment of the TTT song lyrics. Among other weakness of the song, I find the usage of the nursery rhyme "the old man is snoring" extremely boring, and its juxtaposition with Blake's timeless "Tiger Tiger Burning Bright" is irresponsible and unimaginative. I like the music, but these are the worst lyrics Joni has ever written in my opinion! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:20:06 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: The NY Times Article On Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:08:18 EDT DKasc13293@aol.com wrote: > [The NY Times] article is so status quo, I don't > even perceive it as unflattering. I just wanted to say that I read the whole NY Times article here in JMDL, and it only comes across as being very critical if you are really looking for that. Since it seems like we are all (well at least *I* certainly am!) so painfully aware at the moment of Ms. Joan's faults, we notice barbs where maybe they were not intended by the writer - or maybe they *were* intended by the writer, but I don't think the average person would either notice them or come away feeling extremely negative about JM. However, I read the text version without benefit of the photos and the highlighted text about Lillith Fair, so maybe those things in combination with the words make the whole article come across a lot more negatively. Just my $.02. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 10:26:57 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Re "Complain, Complain," Joni, at Fantasy Island My own personal thoughts on this are that i am not surprised Joni is like this. First there is the polio. Then she obviously has problems of acceptance with her parents, particulalry her mother, and also with the world in general and the music business. When one is struggling with unresloved pain, and a physical illness too, it is just so easy to become a grouch and take your anger out in what seems petty ways, tho the anger itself has un petty roots. (When flames start flying here, when people get mean it is usually their own unresolved stuff lashing out in appropraitely-unfortunately that probably goes unrecognized by the lasher). Joni is an ordinary human being like the rest of us, with her plusses and minuses. We might think it better not to judge her for that. We don't have to like or love her just respect her. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 10:27:04 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: On being asked to leave Chilli-of course you shouldn't leave. Listen, I used to post loads and loads-most people people were gracious about it some were not-pity I didn't think to post those particulalry nasty posts to the list! Whoever belongs to this list has the right to post-period. Unless Les, the list owner, says otherwise and he too is a very tolerant, and I think kind, man. I haven't seen anything horrid in your posts. I wonder if those that complain think that everything they write is pertinent and intelligent and read avidly by us all! Whatevr-stay around Chilli bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:46:42 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Howards on the list Howard M. wrote: >I need to point out that I am one of two Howards on the list. I guess it's time for me to add a "W" to my name to avoid mix-ups! Howard W. ("the other one") ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:53:00 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: NYT Who's to blame? I didn't like the NYTimes Mag article on Joni much. It's subversive, sarcastic and unfairly obtuse, I think. But getting infuriated always gives me a headache, so I resist the urge. Besides, it's futile. There is no such thing as an "objective" article. There are *always* inherent biases underlying all reporting. Selective perception, selective retention, biases of omission. No writer can ameliorate these human fallacies. Plus, writers are not like doctors. They do not take an oath to "...first, do no harm" before they practice their craft. There is pressure on them to wax provocative with a cutting edge. That's what sells magazines. Be it the NY Times or Rolling Stone - that's what the game is all about This article is about Joni Mitchell the Icon, not Joni Mitchell the Artist. To that extent, it is dependent on the author's current personal impressions vs. historical perceptions of Joni for its hook. The writer stays away from in-depth analysis of Joni's music, a subject we readers might feel qualified to assess with some semblance of certainty, and instead focuses on Joni's personality. Those of us who have not been privileged to meet Joni cannot confirm or deny his allegations about her narcissistic traits for ourselves. Our belief in the validity of what he says about Joni is therefore contingent upon our determination of the writer's credibility. So how does this writer engender credibility? Well, he makes himself a main character in the article. We follow him through the trappings of the L.A. glimmerati gauntlet, where he is clearly in his own element as well as Joni's: the Bel Air Hotel, the Daily Grill restaurant, the trendy new restaurant, the Hollywood Athletic Club. He gives us a virtual restaurant review every chance he gets. He clearly fancies himself an authority on all things L.A., including one Joan Mitchell. He strongly suggests that Joni had attempted to endear herself to him; to cajole and manipulate him to ensure a positive article. Literally holding his hand as he goes through the interview process. He implies that he gallantly turns a deaf ear to this middle-aged siren's alluring song, for the reader's sake. In the final analysis, his article seems to say: "Okay, Joni. Maybe you're a genius and a living legend and the greatest songwriter of all time. You've got total creative control over your music and wield power with your record label. For three days I listened to you talk about you, now you listen to me. *I* am the pop music writer in the Los Angeles bureau of the New York Times and this is article is *my* province; *my* art. You will respect my authority. How do you like me now?" On the other hand, the old adage still holds true: there is no such thing as bad publicity. Joni will sell some cds and concert tickets because this article appeared, despite its ostensibly scathing bent. And isn't that why one stokes the star-maker machinery in the first place? - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:02:47 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: VG8 and TTT noises From: "Philipf" >>David Marine wrote: >> >>"Does anyone else hear a strange distortion on track 2, 2:41 and track 3, >In general I'm not thrilled with the mastering. It's a very loud cd >and tends to distort in some players. > >Philip I think the overall sohnd quality is very good - I didn't get any problems with distortion. I'll check out the noises David mentions. I do remember a couple of odd things I heard: At the very end of "Harlem", the cut off isn't completely clean - it sounds like someone draws in a sharp breath just after the final guitar note. This is pretty quiet though ... I'm just being a fussy git! On one of the "no drum" tracks (Facelift?) I could swear I heard drums leaking through on the intro at a low level. Not positive, but just on the intro where there is only guitar playing, it sounded like I could hear some cymbal hits at a low level. On "Lead Balloon", near the end, there are some kind of "clanking" sounds, but I'm sure these are deliberate, and they add a nice metallic touch to the track. They come from one of the guitar parts I think (the sound of the strings banging against the pickups maybe?). I think they repeat a few times on the last 10 or 15 seconds of the track - sounds like Joni liked the sound, and looped it a couple of times. From: Gellerray@aol.com (about using the VG8) >does this mean that the chord "shapes" have changed for joni and that she now >plays in conventional tuning--I can't believe that. that would make life >entirely different and in some ways difficult for her wouldn't it? It would make things *very* difficult for her! With the VG8, her guitar stays in standard tuning, but the chord shapes she fingers are the usual ones she uses for her Joni tunings. The VG8 brain does some nifty pitch shifting, and electronically retunes the strings to the correct alternative tuning, so Joni's chords come out sounding as if she's playing with alternative tunings. Howard W. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:19:14 +0100 From: "Philipf" Subject: Re "Complain, Complain," Joni Marian wrote : >I guess I had always imagined that she was much more >gracious and good-natured. This story about the yawn and >her reaction has been like icewater on my admiration, and I'm >not sure it will ever recover. I think your reaction is a little drastic. She only refused to do an encore. As I recall from the report on Wally's site, she played a long and brilliant solo set. An encore is a special gift an artist gives to an audience. If Joni didn't feel any special level of warmth and appreciation coming back from the audience for her performance, then she was perfectly right not to give them an encore. Could the man who yawned not have covered his mouth or something ? If I thought that I would ever be fortunate enough to see a solo performance by Joni Mitchell again in my life I probably wouldn't sleep for a week beforehand but I think I could manage to avoid making such an appalling display of bad manners in her presence. I pity the yawning man in the front row. He has money but lacks manners. How sad. I expect great artists to be a little edgy and volatile and I'm getting a little sick of the level of criticism she's getting here for both the yawn incident and the interviews. Great artists are not public property and don't have to conform to any particular expectations we might have. There are plenty of Jewel style airheads clogging up the airwaves who look and talk nice in interviews and give encores to bored audiences. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 07:35:40 EDT From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Jackson Browne Thanks for the suggestion! I just can't wait to get the entire Joni collection. I have Blue, Court & Spark, Miles Of Aisles, and Night Ride Home. Any suggestions as to the order in which I should proceed to buy the rest of the collection??? Susan Crawford Morro Bay, Ca. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 07:54:12 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Jackson Browne In a message dated 10/5/98 7:38:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Dreamzvill@aol.com writes: << Any suggestions as to the order in which I should proceed to buy the rest of the collection??? Susan Crawford Morro Bay, Ca >> It seems like we get this question all the time. People have their favorites that they will recommend; mine is For the Roses. The best answer, I think, though, is to go back to the beginning with "Song To A Seagull" and progress from there chronologically. It is the best way to learn/appreciate how Joni has grown and developed as a singer/songwriter/musician and painter. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:55:30 GMT From: "Phil Klein" Subject: Re: Joni was a Member of The Mamas and Papas > > Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:25:44 +0100 > From: "Philipf" > Subject: Joni was a member of The Mamas and Papas/ Lead Balloon > > Last night, as Never Mind The Buzzcocks blinked away in > the corner an old black and white clip of The Mamas and > Papas came on. I was stunned to see that the group > consisted of two blokes with beards, a fat lady and our > own Joni Mitchell in all her loveliness. No, you are mistaken. Joni was actually one of those girls who jumped out of the bath and started doing frenzied "go-go" dancing. This experience is widely believed to be responsible for a line in one of her later songs, "I want to talk to you, I want to shampoo you..." Phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 08:07:55 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: JMHP/Liner Notes In a message dated 10/5/98 2:13:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FredNow@aol.com writes: << You know, I really think Joni should have given Wally credit in the >>liner notes of TTT. Agreed. Surprised that she didn't. >> US Magazine made a sweet mention of the web site, though it didn't mention Wally by name. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 08:09:54 EDT From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Welcome! Dear Michael.... Thank you for the kind greeting! Actually, the radio station is in Cambria, but I am in Morro Bay, about 13 miles south. Morro Bay is a working harbortown, at the crossroads of Hwys 1 & 41 (the road to The Valley and all points beyond!), so has a tendency to be a little scruffier. But one would never know it, if they could be here watching the Full Moon-light on the Pacific, as I am now! I have a tendency to think the reason why I've been karmically drawn to Joni's music for the last few months is that something is telling me to become a Painter. I can't wait to see the Van Gogh exhibit! Love to all, Susan Colleen Crawford ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 08:16:16 EDT From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: More VG-8 Edumacation Michael... Where do you live now? Reading this also reminded me I desperately want another acoustic guitar to start recovering my chops with. I lost mine by forgetting to pay interest to the pawn shop awhile back. I do have a hollow- body Vox electric. Love, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:16:59 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: "Complain, Complain," Joni Philipf wrote: >Marian wrote : ><< >>> No matter how I look at it, getting so upset about somebody yawning seems petty and ungracious. It calls to mind teachers who punish the whole class for one person's misbehavior and that kind of punishment always did and still does seem very unfair to me. Not to mention that maybe that person yawned for some other reason than lack of interest in Joni's performance. <<< I expect great artists to be a little edgy and volatile and I'm getting < a little sick of the level of criticism she's getting here for both < the yawn incident and the interviews. >>> What to say about Joni? She's a human being. I never really knew much about Joni before the JMDL (I've been a member for nearly two years now). Before JMDL, Joni was a mysterious, gifted, creative beyond belief individual who, to me, was like a female JC, or Leonardo, or Shakespeare. After two years of reading interview after interview and hearing story after story and listening to live recording after live recording, and learning to play song after song, I'm starting to become a little disenchanted with her, which is probably a healthy thing, given my previous level of admiration. She's a person with faults that would definitely bug the hell out of me (smoking most of all - and just her ignorance about other musical genres and how she fits into it all - "my music is based on classical" , indeed! - okay, intuitively perhaps, but certainly not consciously or from any kind of classical music education). Even though she has always been a real person with real faults, somehow I usually could overlook them and make allowances, but this latest incident in Chicago - I don't know - it's just really disappointing - it really rubbed me the wrong way - but maybe I'm just having a bad Joni week. :^D In spite of realizing that she's a human being, it's still hard not to wish that Joni was more perfect. <<< Great artists are not public property and don't have to < conform to any particular expectations we might have. >>> Well, if Joni wants better press, then she ought to give some consideration to how she behaves in public, because people are always going to be looking at her and forming opinions. Incidents like the one in Chicago could easily go a long way towards making her very unpopular. I was certainly completely disappointed, and I *like* Joni!!!! Marian Vienna > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 08:41:45 EDT From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni moment It's posts like this and the one about synchronicity, and oh so many others that I really enjoy. They reflect such a creative, tuned-in-to-the-cosmos personality. Thank you for bringing such bright moments to my day! Love and light, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 08:55:20 EDT From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more Hi! I'm sorry, I'm new to this...will someone let me know what Jackson said about Joni last year? Cheers, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:17:18 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Good-bye from Chili! Hi, This week was a good week. I looked Joni in the eye and realized that she is not a goddess. She came down off the altar. Now I think I appreciate her music even more. Her music has been THE music in our home for years. Debbie has played it beautifully, Joni songs ringing off the piano through the whole house out into the garden. Joni quotes, Joni friends (not listers but people who would come over and listen to and sing Joni with me). Then the list, the show in the Garden, and then this week of posting pretty much what I damned please to the point where it upset some. Unlike Joni's ego, Joni is in my life at least in a healthy place. I am still planning to go to the concert (DOB). Everyone who has made plans with Debbie and me, they are still on. Just e-mail me privately. I find it a little ironic, that the new album is called Taming the Tiger. A book on Buddhism has that same title. To quote the movie "Seven years in Tibet" ,"In your culture you revere the man who climbs to the top, in ours we revere the man who abandons his ego." I am returning to my Sangha (Buddhist community) at the Chuang Yen Monastery. If you are in the vicinity of Carmel, NY, please consider dropping by to visit the grounds. It is beautiful, especially this time of year. (No we don't try to convert you and we wont shave your head.) Buddhism is not so much a religion as it is a way of life. I think I have been unfair to you all in that I have looked at this as a group of artists and have posted accordingly. I apologize if I have offended anyone, it was not my intention. I know it may seem to some that I don't have a life, because I post so often. The fact is I do and its a pretty delicious one for the most part in spite of the "suffering" which I too do so eloquently. In any event, if you would like to stay in touch, you can always post me privately. And if you see my book, please buy it! Also, will be practicing law shortly...... Love, may you all be well and happy , and may you all find your way back to the garden, - -Chili NR-Now Reading, Jack Kornfeld A path with Heart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:26:19 +0100 From: "Philipf" Subject: Re: Joni was a Member of The Mamas and Papas - -----Original Message----- Phil Klein wrote >No, you are mistaken. Joni was actually one of those girls who jumped >out of the bath and started doing frenzied "go-go" dancing. This >experience is widely believed to be responsible for a line in one of >her later songs, "I want to talk to you, I want to shampoo you..." I've long suspected that she was a backing singer in Val Doonican's band and that's where the line "I wanna knit you a sweater" comes from. Can you confirm ? over. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:34:10 EDT From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now CHILI!!! Please don't leave...yours are all the posts I read FIRST. You are such a bright light in this gray world; I for one truly appreciate your personable, "from-the-heart" style!!! Love and peace, Susan Colleen Crawford PS: while I wrote this, the moon turned orange and set magnificently into the sea! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:40:13 EDT From: JAN201@aol.com Subject: John Kelly I've seen John Kelly years ago. I was kind of afraid to go because I was afraid that he'd be making fun of Joni and I don't have much of a sence of humor about that sort of thing! But I found his preformance really touching. It was obviously done with real love and respect. AND humor! Best- Jan in Hoboken (proud holder of 4 tickets!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:40:25 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: TTT Review The following is a review of TTT as read on the air on WVIA in the Wilkes-Barre-Scranton, PA. on Wed. Sept 30, by George Graham. George has done well over a 1000 of these reviews on his Mixed Bag show every Wed. night at 9pm since 1973. WVIA is a NPR affiliate and George's show runs each weeknight from 8-10 and is considered theses days as "Triple A" (Adult Album Alternative). He has been a long time Joni fan and plays her often on his show. His review follows: The Graham Weekly Album Review #1124 Joni Mitchell: Taming the Tiger -- by George Graham (Reprise 46451 As broadcast on WVIA-FM 9/30/98) In the formative days of the singer-songwriter scene back in the 1960s, there were those who addressed the great issues of the day, or considered generally weighty matters in their poetry and song. But one of the most enduring figures who came out of the scene epitomizes another facet of the art. Joni Mitchell personnifies what has come to be called the "confessional" singer-songwriter, the artist who shares her feelings with the rest of us in song, chronicling her own relationships and in some ways using her songs to come to grips with her own life, and in so doing, finding many fans who would relate to the same kinds of things. Ms. Mitchell, since emerging with her first album thirty years ago, has been one of the most stylistically restless artists on the scene, often keeping her fans wondering what her next record would sound like, and in the process exploring new artistic ground and adding more musical facets to her style. Over the years, her eighteen previous albums have run from the acoustic folk of her early releases to the jazzy pop of the early 1970s, to the more sparse sounds in the latter part of that decade, to explorations with jazz musicians, electronic influenced music in the late 1980s to her current, less readily categorizable work. Now Joni Mitchell is out with a new album entitled Taming the Tiger, coming four years after Turbulent Indigo which won Grammy Awards in more than one category. Once again, there is an interesting story behind this record, and Ms. Mitchell manages to weave that into some of her songs on Taming the Tiger. Though Ms. Mitchell has remained a critics' favorite, and commands a loyal following, she is no longer considered a hot commercial property by the music industry. In fact, she notes with some disdain how so many younger artists are being compared to her as if she had already died. So she grew to hate the music business, despite all the honors being bestowed on her. She was also growing increasingly frustrated with guitar tuning problems, apparently brought on by her distinctive manner of playing, and the way she had worked in different alternate tunings. So she took on a job performing at the New Orleans Jazz and Heritage festival, which she decided was going to be her swan song, then get out the music business altogether. Not long before that show, she was introduced to a new electronic guitar instrument that permitted her to do what she wanted with guitar tunings. So she plunged into the new instrument's possibilities, and when the audience at the New Orleans concert was much greater than expected, Ms. Mitchell felt revitalized, began writing more songs and working on a new record. The result is, on Taming the Tiger, yet another stylistic phase in Ms. Mitchell's restless career. Her electronic guitar has a distinctive sound, somewhere between guitar and synthesizer. Sometimes, she uses it to create rather orchestral-like sounds. At others, she used it to give this album the stark electric folk sound of my own favorite Joni Mitchell record, Hejira. Jazz influence remains an important part of Ms. Mitchell's music, and she enlists of couple of well-known jazz musicians to appear, including saxophonist Wayne Shorter, the Miles Davis veteran and co-founder of the seminal fusion band Weather Report. The drummer, when drums are heard, is Brian Blade, one of the twenty-something so-called "young lions" in jazz. Also appearing is her ex-husband Larry Klein on acoustic bass, and steel guitar player Greg Leisz. In classic Joni Mitchell form, the songs were, for the most part, inspired by events in her life, including her general disenchantment with the music business, a family reunion, a recent news story, and even the prolonged but temporary disappearance of her cat. As usual, she tries to frame the songs as having more universal relevance, which she has almost always succeeded in doing in the past. This time she produced the album herself, after being co-producer of some of her recent previous efforts. Taming the Tiger begins with a piece called Harlem in Havana which was, in a way, inspired by her new electronic guitar. Ms. Mitchell said that as she was exploring the sounds the instrument could make, she found one rather like a marimba that she liked, but didn't really have a song on which it fit. Then she recalled a travelling black burlesque show that came through her Canadian hometown when she was very young, a show that the children were not allowed to see. But, of course, as a child, she was determined to see that show, and the exotic acts it had to offer. The piece provides a vehicle to explore the sonic possibilities of the instrument and her own lyrical imagery. Wayne Shorter puts in some very nice playing on his soprano sax. <<>>HiH excerpt plays<<>> The following track Man from Mars comes off as an old-fashioned lost-lover song lyrically. But it was inspired by her cat named Man from Mars, who disappeared for more than two weeks before returning, during which time she wrote the song. The piece was originally commissioned for a movie, in which the director was looking for a song about a woman's grief. Ms. Mitchell puts the sounds from her guitar synthesizer to use in a rather orchestral way. <<>>MfM excerpt plays<<>> With the wonderfully sparse sound hinting at her Hejira album, is the song Love Puts on a New Face. The guitar sounds are supplemented by some very attractive soprano sax sounds from Shorter. Lyrically, it's a kind of soliloquy considering relationships in search of universal themes. <<>>LPOaNF excerpt plays<<>> One of Ms. Mitchell's philippics on show business, and business in general, is Lead Balloon, given an appropriately hard-edged musical setting. <<>>LB excerpt plays<<>> More specifically aimed at the music business is the title piece Taming the Tiger, a surprisingly mellow-sounding piece considering the pointed imagery in the words. <<>>TTT excerpt plays<<>> One of the more introspective-sounding songs is Stay in Touch, in which the commonly used disposable parting pleasantry is explored for its implications. The spacey instrumental setting is particularly attractive with some since orchestral sounds from Ms. Mitchell's guitar synthesizer. <<>>SiT excerpt plays<<>> The song inspired by a news event is No Apology, written after the story of the rape of Japanese women by American soldiers stationed in Okinawa. After news of the event come out, Ms. Mitchell quotes an American general there as offering "no apology." <<>>NA excerpt plays<<>> Joni Mitchell has apparently been a long-time fan of music from old Westerns. Several years ago, she recorded a version of Cool Water. This time, she does song from the Sons of the Pioneers, My Best to You. Though the arrangement includes a steel guitar, otherwise the accompaniment is positively orchestral with Ms. Mitchell's synthesizers. <<>>MBtY excerpt plays<<>> The album ends with a brooding solo instrumental featuring Ms. Mitchell's electronic guitar entitled Tiger Bones, that provides a nice closing to the record, but is hardly the most substantial piece of composing on the album. <<>>TB excerpt plays<<>> Joni Mitchell's new release Taming the Tiger, her first in four years, is in some ways, a comeback record for the veteran singer-songwriter. Prior to making the album, she had decided to get out of the music business, and was only inspired to press on only after finding an interesting new instrument to play and discovering after a live performance that her fans had not deserted her after all, in an industry where experienced performers are cast aside for the latest disposable trend followers. She channels some of that contempt for the commercial music business into the songs, and true to form, weaves personal experiences into lyrics that can have wider implications. As she says in a recent interview about this album, "All my records are cathartic." Musically, Taming the Tiger is one of her more interesting recordings. She uses her new guitar synthesizer instrument to create arrangements that range from the stark, brooding quality of her 1976 album Hejira to the more jazzy to near-ochestral arrangements vaguely reminiscent even of art rock. Nevertheless, the minimal accompaniment for the most part, with the excellent soprano sax work of Wayne Shorter makes fine listening, and music whose interest won't fade after a few listenings. Sonically, Taming the Tiger is about as good as you'll get on a major label given the industry's tendency to sacrifice dynamic range for loudness. The mix, by Joni Mitchell herself and Dan Marnien is impressive in conveying both a feeling of intimacy along with an occasionally spacey quality. Over 30 years, Joni Mitchell has been a stylistically restless artist. Her new album represents yet another phase, which may or may not appeal to some who have latched on to particular periods. Those who like Hejira will probably be the happiest with this album, while those for whom the Court and Spark album was her pinnacle may be less enthusiastic about Taming the Tiger's more stark, intimate, largely drumless arrangements. But this is an album that rewards a fair, open-minded hearing. It's another substantial work from one of our most durable and significant singer-songwriters. This is George Graham. (c) Copyright 1998 George D. Graham. All rights reseved. This review may not be copied to another Web site without written permission. Comments to George: graham@epix.net http://georgegraham.com gdave NP: Tape of the Day - 10/5/94 Grateful Dead: Spectrum, Philadelphia, PA. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:46:16 EDT From: Dreamzvill@aol.com Subject: Re: Re "Complain, Complain," Joni, at Fantasy Island How does anyone know the "reaction to yawning" incident ever really happened? Did anyone you know ever speak to her about it? I hear so much about it, but the incident may be like one of those "urban legends"! :) Cheers, Susan C. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:10:44 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: JMHP/Liner Notes The New York Times piece yesterday credited -- guess what -- the New York Times! for its role in reuniting Joni and Kilauren. Didn't mention the web site once. > > US Magazine made a sweet mention of the web site, though it didn't mention > Wally by name. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 07:55:46 -0600 From: "Manning, Thomas (Tom)" Subject: new member Hello Hi Everyone, I'm new to this "Joni" list. (thanks to Colin) I was born and raised in NYC (the Bronx), I'm just gettin used to Colorado. (goin on 12 years now!) take care, tom ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:56:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: njc Re: Saying Good-bye to my Father- Chili poem 2 just a reminder, please try and label njc for no joni content. bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:02:42 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: One last line- Hi, If anyone would still like to receive my posts, please e-mail me and I will put together a distribution list. I will still be writing my psycho cyber journal with and without joni in my typical narcissitic, bad boy, egomaniacal style. LOL! It's been fun and I really mean that. Thanks Les! - -Chili :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:08:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: njc Re: Saying Good-bye to my Father- Chili poem 2 btw, i posted the njc label before reading the thread about chili leaving. my request could have been directed at a number of folks, and was not meant as anything more than a gentle reminder. i think njc labeling is important to keep things on track here, especially when i come back to hundreds of messages to sort thru. it seems to me that adherence to the njc label comes and goes, and i think reminders now and then can help. bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:14:02 +0100 From: Lisa Molin Subject: GMA Hello to all, So is anyone out there as out-of-it as I am? I was totally psyched to see The Madam on Good Morning America this past Friday, but missed the show completely because I programmed my VCR to Channel 2!!! I could swear someone on the list mentioned this would be the Channel to watch, and since I never watch morning T.V., I didn't bother to follow up on whether or not this information was true. So, I missed the program (literally and figuratively). Now I'm attempting to get through to Ticketmaster. All I get is a lame recording of a guy saying "I'm sorry your call can not go through, please try again later." He's got a whiny voice mixed with a "I could care less that you can't get through" attitude, which doesn't suit me well on this very day when I had a hellacious commute into the City, and the fact that the moon is FULL, in ARIES, my opposite sign. So.......what can I expect today? A little bit of off kilter air, I guess. Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 10:14:25 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: The NY Times Article Just spoke to a journalist friend of mine here at the University. She is a long time Joni fan and knows how hard-core I am. She saw the article and called me this morning. Her take was that the article itself was good, and not particularly negative. But that the editor, who arranged for the headline, sub-headings, and unflattering photo certainly looked like s/he had an agenda. I tend to agree. Jerry np: Tiger Bones (throw me another, Joni) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:46:56 +-100 From: Hassan Zubairi Subject: a coupla things Coyotes A coupla things that the past few post have brought up: Who is Anna? (In Taming The Tiger, Joni thinks of her) I can't remember if this was answered or not. Chilihead should NOT leave. I like TTT. And I am constantly listening to it with brief forays into tapes of Dar and other compilations that listmembers have sent me (thanks). Only to clear the palette, mind. Joni Mitchell is a human being, and not, never has been, perfect. Accept. Nobody and I mean NOBODY has ever been perfect. (except my Mum, but only because I accept her for her imperfections, as I hope she accepts me for mine). I should live in America, if I want to see Joni this side of this century. The record business is much like the tv business here in the UK. Most stations want to see names names names on their castlists. They would rather have Ewan MacGregor than John Light. They would also prefer Stallone to Spacey, but that's only cuz they're paranoid that nation would start thinking homosexuals can also be talented. They probably feel the same way about us Asians, or maybe is that me being paranoid for not being in work. hahaha Anyway my tuppence for the list. Stay Chili Stay. Much Joni JamieJake ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 08:03:53 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Just in on Excite Great! : - ( Now that negative NYT article will be quoted everywhere else... On the Lilith issue, She was quoted in Billboard saying that she had been invited to play and was thinking about it. So where does this negative energy come from? I'm confused. ginny wrote: > Just caught this on the Entertainment Headlines: > > Mitchell Disdains Role as Grand Dame of Female Singers > > NEW YORK (Reuters) - For years, singer Joni Mitchell has been named as > the inspiration for a litany of women singers and songwriters. But the > soulful songstress tells the New York Times Magazine she finds that > description somewhat limiting. "One guy came up to me and said, 'You're > the best female > singer-songwriter in the world," Mitchell said. "I was thinking: > 'What do you mean female? That's like saying you're the best > Mitchell's latest recording "Taming the Tiger" is described by > the Times as a jazz, rock and classical fusion album. -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #397 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?