From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #396 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, October 5 1998 Volume 03 : Number 396 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Orlando@jmdl.com -Tampa@jmdl.com Sunrise@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Seven Errors of Observation [Gellerray@aol.com] Terry's dream from Digest #391 ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now [Gellerray@a] Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now [ginny ] Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now [pswmusic@in] (NJC) private disputes [Michael Yarbrough ] stephen holden (jc) [trxschwa ] Stay In Touch [Leslie Mixon ] Re: Janis & Joni [FredNow@aol.com] TTT and Gas [Evan + Vanessa Thomson ] My final posting ["Paul Roberts" ] Washington Blade review [Michael Yarbrough ] all apologies [Gellerray@aol.com] Re: Joni was a member of The Mamas and Papas/ Lead Balloon [FredNow@aol.c] Re: Janis & Joni & Q mag's appreciation of BOTH [FredNow@aol.com] Re: JMHP/Liner Notes [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Washington Blade review [pswmusic@interport.net (Esquizito)] Re: accolades and honors.... [Gellerray@aol.com] Stuff [Wally Breese ] Re: Washington Blade review [Gellerray@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 23:44:40 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Seven Errors of Observation touche deb, on each and every point. ray ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 23:56:30 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Terry's dream from Digest #391 Terry, you drempt that she was behind a wall at a concert. You poor girl, you weren't at a Joni concert- it was Pink Floyd! Terry M said, ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: As soon as I sat down, though, I found a big wall right in front of my face- a black wall- obstructing most of the view. How depressing! ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: - -- All in all you are all just bricks in the wall, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 23:47:29 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now indeed chili, I agree with ashara--DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT LEAVING THE LIST. Who is this guy and who does he think he is? What a nasty nasty man. Fuck him!!! ray ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:57:35 -0700 From: ginny Subject: Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now Chili - Your comments sparked one of the most lively discussions I've seen for a while. It drew me in, and I'm a dedicated lurker! You would be missed. Ginny ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 23:51:42 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: On being asked to leave Hi David, I will respect the wishes of the list. You have asked me to leave. If that is the general consensus, I will. Your post was not kind it was mean spirited and frankly I do not know why you would want to send it to me privately. Did you think I would just obey your command and that would be the end of it? I have made a number of friends here and perhaps some enemies but not intentionally. You can't please all of the people all of the time. I did not ask you to leave the list, nor would I ask anyone no matter what they posted or how often. If you cannot extend that courtesy to me then that is your problem. You don't have to read what I post. I am posting my message to the list but not the communication you just sent to me. - -Chili PS. Who finds it amusing that he was asked to leave after his posts this week which were somewhat controversial. I expected it and in fairness to me most of my posts have Joni content especially my most recent ones. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:12:13 -0700 From: ginny Subject: Just in on Excite Just caught this on the Entertainment Headlines: Mitchell Disdains Role as Grand Dame of Female Singers NEW YORK (Reuters) - For years, singer Joni Mitchell has been named as the inspiration for a litany of women singers and songwriters. But the soulful songstress tells the New York Times Magazine she finds that description somewhat limiting. "One guy came up to me and said, 'You're the best female singer-songwriter in the world," Mitchell said. "I was thinking: 'What do you mean female? That's like saying you're the best Mitchell's latest recording "Taming the Tiger" is described by the Times as a jazz, rock and classical fusion album. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:20:58 -0400 (EDT) From: pswmusic@interport.net (Esquizito) Subject: Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now >indeed chili, I agree with ashara--DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT LEAVING THE LIST. >Who is this guy and who does he think he is? What a nasty nasty man. Fuck >him!!! Uh oh, here we go. Everybody chill. Please don't type anything that you wouldn't be willing or able to say face to face. "Happiness is the best face lift." Esquizito ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:29:22 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: (NJC) private disputes As a longtime friend of David's and a recent acquaintance of Chili's, I'm fully confident that these two adult men are capable of handling any disagreements they may have with each other or each others' opinions on their own. I have no doubt that their intentions are good (and don't fire any proverbs back at me! ;-) ). So count this as my early plea to apply Kakki's advice re: Joni to this situation: let's not make uninformed assumptions about context, and just leave it to the people involved. A smiley face for good measure: :-) - --Michael NP: The Aluminum Group, _Plano_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:33:28 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: stephen holden (jc) from an article in today's times, about the new bacharach/costello project and duncan sheik's new album. a few edits in the first para. - ------------------ '...an introspective folk-pop genre that includes 'five leaves left', van morrison's 'astral weeks' and joni mitchell's 'hejira' and more recently the music of seal along with ferron's 'driver' and jane siberry's 'when i was a boy'. dreaming, searching, contemplating love, time, change and desire, they reflect on the evanesence of happiness and beauty in a world where everything contrives to distract us and make us numb to the stirrings of the soul. as for handing down lessons, these albums, with their heady philosophical musings and shimmeringly textured sounds, lead us toward an emotional and spiritual receptivity; they are musical oases where the soul can find refreshment. - ------------------ i love a journalist with his heart on his sleeve patrick np - lotc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:59:03 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Stay In Touch I enjoy reading Mr. Chili's posts - I vote that he stays. Leslie Steve Mixon http://www.cruzio.com/~stevem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:42:18 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Janis & Joni From: Chilihead2@aol.com: >>PS. One of the items Janis is auctioning off is a concert in your living >>room. The last one went for only $2500. Imagine Joni doing that? Doubt it! She >>bitched about being paid $450K for "A Day in the Garden". Hey, hey, hey, now ... let's play fair. Joni didn't bitch about the bread because she didn't think it was a good taste, she bitched because Pete Townshend and Don Henley got $550k each, which is bogus, she's right. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 14:53:38 +1000 From: Evan + Vanessa Thomson Subject: TTT and Gas I agree with Helen and Michael, It's definitely no fun having freezing cold showers, microwaved vegetables, a Liberal government(my prejudice there) and no TTT!! I've been to C&C Music, Sanity etc and each time you ask for Joni, the main expression that greets my polite request is one of incomprehension!! I feel 'old' as the so called X Generation purchase their latest chart topping., contrived, media friendly 'all girl' or 'all boy' group's music and I shudder as they gaze at me blankly as I ask where the Joni Mitchell section is and all I find is "Blue'!! I 'assumed' I'd pay near $30.00 for TTT. That's the way it's always been. I also 'assumed' that she'd be somewhat difficult to find as she's not 'fashionable'. I'm prepared to wait and endure the cold showers, the flu I have as a result and endless parade of toast... It'll just make it extra special when I finally get to hear it....! I just hope it's soon. Also I just received a Chi Coltrane L.P for my birthday and I was wondering if anyone 'knows' anything about her that they'd be interested in sharing? A very stuffy nosed and miserable Vanessa. p.s. We could substituts the lyrics "No phones til Friday" to "No gas til Thursday" so they tell us... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:16:30 PDT From: "Paul Roberts" Subject: My final posting Dear all, As I'll soon be leaving this ML (as it's turned out just as predictably as all the other ones I've ever been on), I just thought I could get my two bits' worth in. Yes, I think Joni is too over-temperamental. She's gotten far 'above her raising' as my grandmother says and she's forgotten her roots. Her song 'The Boho Dance' should make this painfully obvious, that she once was 'working cheap' and that she was just a struggling artist, like the rest of us in this list who are budding musicians (not unlike myself!) I agree with Chili on saying that her refusal to do an encore due to someone *YAWNING* is ridiculous and petty, very childish as well. It smacks of something that a prima donna would do, someone who thinks more of themselves than they really are. People yawn due to lack of oxygen, not necessarily due to boredom; she should know that as well. I used to love reading interviews with Joni, but recently she's become, quite frankly, a bitch. I read an interview with her in 'Spin,' I believe it was, and it was the first interview I'd ever read with her...she was talking with the interviewer and a female jazz/soul musician, and I remember her being rather rude in the interview, and quite caustic, not at all what I had previously imagined her to be like, but she wasn't quite that bad, so I overlooked it. After reading the interviews that were posted to this ML, I've reconsidered; I wouldn't want to meet her at all, we'd end up arguing before five minutes had passed because she complains too much and generalises. She groups modern music into a large, ridiculous group that she defines through her denigratory terms, which isn't fair at all to the truly talented artists that are there. Even in one interview, she bashes Sheryl Crow, almost as if to be in keeping with her policy of hating 'modern' artists, and then in another interview barely any time at all later (relatively), she lauds her and acclaims her style. Certainly it's her prerogative to change her mind, but after such a caustic review of the same artist, for her to turn around such a 180, it seems very bought and rehearsed, at least to me. Almost a taboo for the artist that refused to sell out in the seventies, with her artistic climax reached as she recorded records only to fulfill a contract...it seems very offensive to those of us who have actually followed her since then, even if it is truly her own mind changing...she should prepare a little bit better for interviews (despite the fact that she doesn't like them) if she intends to sustain her image. Another thing (as if that wasn't enough!:) is the fact that she makes such a big deal about playing her old material. Being a musician myself, I know how frustrating it is when people recognise a particular song you play (I play a very small circuit, so it's this one song that sort of gets spread around among the circuit:) and want you to play it, but that's not really the problem with Joni. Besides which, if you already know how to play a song well enough, it should be a nice break from all the songs you really have to work on. I know when I was just learning some songs, I'd do a few songs that I had practised a great deal, like 'Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire,' and I could play almost without thinking, providing a welcome break from all the songs I had to wrack my brains on to recall the chords. Although this may not be her particular viewpoint, I don't see why it couldn't be; she's established herself well enough to have at least a few of these that she could fall back on, providing a nice flashback for the true fans in the crowd and also getting a slight break from the sometimes-exhausting spotlight. Not only this, but she should also realise that with hits come demand. She should approach this more maturely, with the view that if you have a hit, especially as many as she has, people are going to want to hear it, and not only that, but also you're going to be asked to play it a great deal, so you get a lot of practise, and this goes back to my previous point; it's just another nice break from an otherwise exhausting concert, and it gives the fans what they want. I don't see what's so hard about that. I can sympathise somewhat, but not all that much since I know how it can be and I don't think it has to be annoying at all. Joni has that tendency now, unfortunately, to fall into that very tempting pitfall of the 'influencer'...to let it go to her head that she's influenced so much of the modern music that she hates. On one hand, she likes to bitch about the lack of artistic integrity of modern artists, and on the other hand, she likes to say, 'Hey, you can see my influence there.' You can't have your cake and eat it too, and it seems Joni's trying to do just that...She also doesn't tour much anymore (she never did very much, but she's *REALLY* stayed away from stages in recent years), and especially not in my area of the country, which is unfortunate because I know that her shows would all but sell out in some areas around here where I know some very dedicated fans of hers. It seems rather unfair that she sometimes gives them the shaft in coming to see them, because up until I learned so much about her, she was the only artist I would consider seeing in concert any more besides Tori Amos, who I would only see at a small concert. And Tori, while she has a huge stock of songs, is not too up on her high-horse to play some of her old reliable hits, or even just songs that fans like...she actually takes requests sometimes and she recognises the value of her fans, which I respect immensely (and to boot, I don't have to worry about Tori selling out to Lilith Fair!:) Given, Joni is a great artist, and I adore her work and her music...she's contributed an immense amount to the face of the music landscape today and, whether she likes it or not, has shaped current modern sound for better or worse. Her ground-breaking work put some of the greatest sound that's ever existed into the musical scene. But if she is to succeed further in her career, she's going to have to stop refusing to go back. A man is the sum of his memories, it's said, and musicians are no different; you can't just keep moving on without at least acknowledging your past, but it seems like Joni has almost always done that, even recently upon her 'return' to her more successful jazz/folk gestalt, refusing to go back in any way other than a slight nod to what once was. She also needs to start working on her image more...I know it's shallow, but in this world she needs it, especially with how she's been lately. If she's going to have an image at all, she should make a good one, not one of a temperamental, self-absorbed bitch (excuse the overuse of that word:) who complains about anything and everything. I'd give a lot to be in her position, and I don't think I'd be quite so unpleasant about the fact that I was there; many people that I know think very little of her because of her image that she's made for herself, and I don't like that...I respect her as a creative artist, even though I don't particularly like her attitude sometimes, and she's still my favourite artist of all. Seriously, though, she needs to stop being so arrogant and self-opinionated in interviews, whether or not she's like that at all in everyday life. Even if she's not trying to sell albums, she probably should be, because whether she likes it or not, money is an issue in the music industry, unfortunately; not only this, but she may not be trying to make any new friends or fans, and if she continues on this road, she won't have to worry about that at all. Being a musician myself, I am sometimes overcritical myself, but I am overcritical of nothing more than artists being like Joni has showed herself to be lately. It smacks of hypocrisy and ungratefulness, and from someone of her calibre, I wouldn't accept it any more than I'd accept it from the CEO of a large, successful corporation. She's been more influential than most artists this century, indeed in the history of music; she's explored avenues others have never even imagined, and she's pioneered roads that have become well-travelled by others, but she needs very desperately to work against the image that is now being attributed to her due to her perhaps too-bitter outlook on interviews and her image in the public eye. Given, the world has a good many things wrong with it, but the way to solve that isn't to constantly complain about the problems and react bitterly to those that have made you what you are; the answer is to act and set a good example so that those people and others follow your example and do that good thing. That's it for me...Phoenix signing off the Joni Mitchell Discussion List for good.:) Love to all! Phoenix ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 01:18:03 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Washington Blade review I know y'all have been holding your breath waiting for this one, so here it is, from the Oct 2 98 issue (BTW, the Blade is a gay paper): Joni Mitchell isn't a Lesbian, but hers is widely considered to be the Woodstock generation's most articulate voice--in fact, she wrote its theme song, "Woodstock." Today, three decades after the epoch- defining festival she famously memorialized as an effort to recover a lost Paradise, what does Mitchell have to say to Gay listeners? A lot, as it trns out. Her new album, TTT, begins with a song about kids sneaking in to a carnival sideshow to see hoochie coochie dancers--some of whom are identified in teh lyric as drag queens. "Auntie Ruthie would have died if she knew we were on the inside," Mitchell sings. The theme of forbidden pleasure--specifically, erotic pleasure frowned upon by prudes--runs through the album, which becomes, in effect, a blessing for lovers. An instant pop classic, "The Crazy Cries of Love" is about partners who hope a train will go by while they're having sex so that their cries won't be overheard. Mitchell has defined herself through her confessional lyrics as a serial monogamist who shocks her mother with her behavior. On TTT, "Face Lift" tells the story of an argument the middle-aged songwriter recently had with her mother, who disapprove of her daughter's "making love without a [marriage] license--same old sacred cow." The album closes with an updated version of the cowboy classic, "My Best to You,: which concludes with the verse, "So here's to you, may your skies be blue, and your love blessed--that's my best to you." In these songs, as in others--including the raging "Sex Kills" on her 1994 release TI00it's clear where Mitchell's sympathies lie. As she sings in "Face Lift": "Love takes so much courage. Love takes so much shit!" TTT is a beautiful record designed to give listeners heart. --Greg Varner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 01:41:06 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: all apologies Esquizito wrote: (to me ray) Uh oh, here we go. Everybody chill. Please don't type anything that you wouldn't be willing or able to say face to face. good point and i apologize. Most of all to David Marine, but also to the entire list. I was visited by loose cannon dis-ease, and I am duly chastised, very sorry. Much love, believe it or not-- ray p.s. sad thing is, in the moment i typed it I'm sure i would have been willing to say it to the face of--but again--sorry!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 01:57:35 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni was a member of The Mamas and Papas/ Lead Balloon "Philipf" wrote: >>I was stunned to see that the group consisted of two blokes with >>beards, a fat lady and our own Joni Mitchell in all her loveliness >>... When The Mamas and Papas split Joni went to England and joined a >>country rock outfit called Mathews Southern Comfort ... I suspect >>that Joni is still double jobbing, possibly as the drummer in a New >>Jersey stadium rock band. Zelig Mitchell. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 02:02:51 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Janis & Joni & Q mag's appreciation of BOTH Gellerray@aol.com wrote: >>chili i just want to tell you--last year Q mag did a "hundred >>greatest acoustic guitar songs of all time" piece and joni was in >>there of course--for black crow Black Crow was recorded on electric guitar. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 02:09:57 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: JMHP/Liner Notes Mark Domyancich wrote: >>You know, I really think Joni should have given Wally credit in the >>liner notes of TTT. Agreed. Surprised that she didn't. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 02:14:31 -0400 (EDT) From: pswmusic@interport.net (Esquizito) Subject: Re: Washington Blade review >TTT is a beautiful record designed to give listeners heart. > > --Greg Varner Yes well, everyone knows how us gay boys must have our female icons! Joni, The Sex Godess, The Torcher, and yes - The Bitch - suits the post-Judy, Radical Faeries just fine. BTW, Who here has caught John Kelly's act? Esquizito www.inetrport.net/~pswmusic ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 02:19:25 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: accolades and honors.... yeah kakki. reading what you wrote--esp about joni and sweating the small stuff i am reminded of the (first) night at the gorge when she was introducing magadalene launderies and somebody interrupted her (overeager so to overlook) and called her an "anglophile"--and she just had to respond! She couldn't let it go. As I remember she bantered a bit and then came back with her response as the idea had gotten under her skin and she needed to sweat it, and she said something like "I'm a mutt darlin'." And maybe some more things I don't recall. Something about her "French blood" and her arrogance in fact! Anyway, it was cute--far less strident than she has been sounding in these interviews. So, context indeed? the ray who still, nevertheless, wishes that she were a *little* 'sweeter' about this stuff--but who knows--who knows!--how it feels to be dissed for so long as she has been? overlooked--relegated--pigeonholed--blacklisted. misogynized. and yet, as our debates do seem to prove--she could be debated on these points. It would be nice if one single interviewer seemed up to that and didn't just use the the timeworn tradition and the inane inflection of the poison pen. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 98 23:31:52 -0700 From: Wally Breese Subject: Stuff Hi everybody, Lots of stuff for you this evening- TICKETS Tickets for Joni's show at Madison Square Garden go on sale Monday morning at 9AM. AUSTIN, TEXAS RADIO INTERVIEW Last evening, Austin radio station KGSR broadcast an interview with Joni that their DJ, Jody Denberg, did back on September 9th at the Bel Air Hotel in L.A. The program ran 70 minutes and included five tracks from Joni's new album Taming The Tiger. (I listened through the stations' live RealAudio feed). This interview is going to be pressed onto promotional CD's and serviced to about 100 radio stations around the country as a part of Reprise's "Words & Music" series. I've already asked them for 25 copies of the CD that I'll then offer as prizes in another JM.com contest. MAGAZINES Look for the latest issues of US, People, and Entertainment Weekly magazine for articles on Joni or reviews of her new album Taming The Tiger. (ET gives it an A-) THE NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE Today's New York Times Magazine (10/4) has an interview with Joni entitled "The Hissing of a Living Legend." The article is, obviously, a not totally positive portrait of JM, but after I settled down from my initial stinging read, I found the article to actually be an intelligent and honest report about some of Joni's positive and negative sides. It's not an article that Joni will like, but it's the kind of piece that all artists should perhaps occasionally have written about them. The writer, BTW, loves Joni's new album Taming The Tiger.

GOOD MORNING AMERICA On Friday morning (10/2) Joni was featured on saxophonist David Sanborn's new musical segment on ABC-TV's "Good Morning America." Sanborn was introduced for the segment as GMA's "music contributor," and GMA's male host and he talked for a brief minute about Joni, followed by a taped five minute interview with Joni on subjects ranging from her new guitar, her daughter and grandson, and the fact that her new album Taming The Tiger was recorded totally in her own home studio. Brian Blade, her drummer and friend, sat at her right side while she talked about how he had helped inspire her to continue making music, and at one point, she reached over, took his hand and squeezed it with affection. While she talked about her commitment to painting, images of six of the paintings included in the TTT booklet were flashed on the screen. She said of the reunion with her daughter, "...it filled in a big hole for me." After commercials, Sanborn talked briefly about Joni's unique way of playing guitar, and then another film segment was shown where he joined with Joni and Brian to perform "The Crazy Cries Of Love" (in a recording studio setting). It was so gratifying to view an intelligent, lengthy musical segment on morning TV, especially one that also included a live performance. The only criticism I have is that the lighting and camera angles were not exactly ones which I would have chosen. Maybe a new cameraman would help? Later, Wally The Joni Mitchell Homepage http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 02:28:01 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: Re: Washington Blade review i've seen john kelly--several times Ez. In fact, I count him as a friend and he tipped me and my (once) boyfriend Colin off about the night Joni was to attend and so we reserved (at Fez) and went and there she was all night long and there was John too and it was a brillant evening. I don't live in New York though anymore, (since January)... r have you seen john? ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #396 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?