From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #395 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, October 4 1998 Volume 03 : Number 395 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Orlando@jmdl.com -Tampa@jmdl.com Sunrise@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- On how Joni has impacted our vision with her painter's eye [Chilihead2@ao] Black Hollyhocks for Beijing-a Chili Poem [Chilihead2@aol.com] Saying Good-bye to my Father- Chili poem 2 [Chilihead2@aol.com] RE: Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee [trxschwa ] TTT Poster Contest [bg26140@binghamton.edu] Re: Joni bumper stickers [David Wright ] Re: accolades and honors.... ["Kakki" ] Re: natalie merchant + all the rest [Marilune@aol.com] Re: Re: JMHP/Liner Notes [Marilune@aol.com] Re: NYT Article and Beck [Marilune@aol.com] Birthday Card [Leslie Mixon ] NYTWho's to blame? [ginny ] RE: Joni bumper stickers [Michael Yarbrough ] NYT piece [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Re: JMHP/Liner Notes ["Philipf" ] Jukebox Joni; TTT Acclaim [Scott Price ] Re: The NY Times Article [DSK11 ] Re: accolades and honors.... ["Deb Messling" ] Re: No apologies Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Jukebox Joni; TTT Acclaim [RickieLee1@aol.com] Seven Errors of Observation ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Joni bumper stickers ["Deb Messling" ] Re: accolades and honors.... ["Kakki" ] Re: tix in ny [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: NYTWho's to blame? ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Toast and Jam! (NJC) [Michael Paz ] NYT piece and a little more [Leenycas@aol.com] Re: tix in ny [pswmusic@interport.net (Esquizito)] Re: The NY Times Article [Brian Gross ] Re: tix in ny [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: The NY Times Article [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) [heather ] Re: Good Morning Morgantown? [Helen Gill ] Re: Joni Bumper Stickers ["Marsha" ] Re: Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) ["Julie Z. Webb" ] TTT and other crisees (fwd) [Helen Gill ] Re: Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee [heather ] joni dream [Helen Gill ] a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now [Chilihead2@aol.] Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now (NJC) [Ashar] Re: TTT: How much $ [Helen Gill ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:10:40 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: On how Joni has impacted our vision with her painter's eye Hi again, Just think in a few months, I'll be back at work and you won't have to put up with me. I am sure that's got some breathing a sigh of relief but until then....... What I am hearing with the last posts is that old adage, "Trust the art, not the artist". I think that most of us would agree Joni has contributed substantially to our appreciation of our own lives. She has been the voice of our own suffering and our own joy. Many of us probably have that artist's sensibility and we see things in ways that many people don't. Joni is clearly unhappy with this tour she is doing with Dylan. Personally, I'd rather see her at some small venue like the Blue Note (a NY jazz club) doing whatever she wants to do. I hope I was one of the chins she was referring to in the NY times article today. Just so we might do something else here at the JMDL, I am suggesting a new thread. I know many of us are artists. Painters, writers, musicians, potters, etc. Of course I am willing to bet most of us do other things to pay the bills. Still I would love to experience the artistic expression of other JMDLers. With that in mind I am sharing two poems ( you can read or delete - ---your option) with you. The poem that follows is one I wrote after the death of one of our chow chows. Several months later we lost another chow "Shanghai". His death was equally horrible. I am writing a poem about it now. It was a very tough year for Mrs. Chili and I. We almost divorced. I had my second major back operation. Two of our dogs died. My father died .(I will follow Shanghai's poem with his poem). Then Mrs. Chili's mother died. I am also writing a poem for my dear mother in law who was one of my best friends. May you all be well and happy, - -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:11:52 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Black Hollyhocks for Beijing-a Chili Poem Black Hollyhocks for Beijing When you died I howled at the moon, and the Vet came down to comfort us "Foul play", he said, & the word "poison". and I didn't want to know for sure all because you used to get out sometimes... so when you finally came home, we threw your ashes to the garden. Two summers later, Black Hollyhocks the color of your fur, the color of your tongue, And I remember the 7 years you lay on our bedroom floor. Brian David Mansfield Summer 1997 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:13:23 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Saying Good-bye to my Father- Chili poem 2 SAYING GOOD-BYE TO MY FATHER CHRISTMAS EVE; THE SUN IS SHINING COLD, AND YOU WERE THE CLOUD OVER THIS SUN. NOW I HOLD YOUR HAND, ON THIS YOUR DEATH BED. YOUR EYES FLUTTER AND THERE IS BLOOD ON YOUR LIPS, AND I AM YOUR BLOOD. YOUR HAND IS WARM. THE NURSE TAKES THE PRAYER BEADS FROM MY WRIST AND PUTS THEM ONTO YOURS. MY FACE RAINS INTO YOUR FACE, WHILE I KISS YOUR FOREHEAD. WE HAVEN’T TALKED IN SEVEN YEARS BUT JUST 2 DAYS AGO, I SAW YOU, ACCIDENTALLY. YOU DIDN’T SEE ME, AND I TURNED MY HEAD. -BRIAN DAVID MANSFIELD 5/26/96 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:11:37 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee she also rewrote the lyrics of 'for free' for the 'refuge of the roads' tour and created a beautiful tag to the chorus. sang it in the already roughening voice of that year. as an example of how to keep the old music alive, that's a big winner that she should still be singing, but they didn't ask me. still, she has sung 'just like this train', 'big yellow taxi', and 'woodstock' in nearly every performance this year, along with 'harry's house' on the west coast. aren't the first three crowd-pleasers? how much old music do people want? can she ever satisfy them? i doubt it. patrick np on tv - gershwin celebration at carnegie - second rhapsody ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:27:57 -0400 (EDT) From: bg26140@binghamton.edu Subject: TTT Poster Contest Hi all. I want to e-mail my answers to the TTT Website contest, but I can't do it FROM the website because this is not my comuter and well, this is all very confusing for me because I'm not a computer genius. Does anyone know the address I should send my answers to? Thank You! Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 15:48:28 +0100 From: David Wright Subject: Re: Joni bumper stickers Brian Gross wrote: >Especially if we jmdlers the world over began sticking Joni bumper >stickers to >EVERY vehicle we could !! I recently thought that we should print up a bunch of little stickers saying www.jonimitchell.com www.jmdl.com and all of us take them down to our local music stores and stick them on the front of every copy of TTT (or of every Joni CD). I too was surprised, to put it mildly, by the omission from TTT's liner notes of Wally or his site. I see it not only as a bit of a certainly unintentional insult to Wally, but as another case of Reprise missing the boat as far as promoting Joni. (And this would have required virtually no effort on their part, even!) The liner notes to PJ Harvey's new release, by contrast, give the addresses for *three* internet sites: Island Records' page, and two fan pages. Who's with me? - --David NP: PJ Harvey, _Is This Desire?_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:39:38 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: accolades and honors.... I think Char, Duane and Mark have done a great job this morning bringing the whole discussion about Joni's flaws down to the level of reality. Artists have egos and great artists have great egos - that just goes with the territory. This is just reiterating something all of us here already know. A large ego is almost mandatory for creating art - one must have that supreme confidence to put yourself and your unique view out into the world and then the confidence to withstand the slings and arrows that may come in reaction to it. Great artists are usually only self-sacrificing to their art. I loved the mention of Van as another example of the sulking, rude artist! Van is much worse in the P.R. department from what I've read but we all love him immensely just the same and most find his snarliness charming in a way. Char also made the important point that touring and travelling can be so exhausting. I look at Joni's upcoming tour schedule and am actually worried for her. I could never take on half the travelling and work that lies ahead of her in a few weeks. I truly would be looking it as upcoming hell month. It doesn't mean she has disdain for her fans at all - it's the dread of the physical toll on her. I read the N.Y. Times interview (thanks Dougie) and actually did not think it was so bad, either. It seemed to be a very honest write to me. My pro-Joni rants yesterday do not stem from a desire to never criticize her. I just think it is shallow to read interviews and take the interviewers perceptions as complete gospel. We weren't there - we don't know Joni's context. Maybe my legal background comes into play here. I read this stuff and the ensuing quick, conclusionary judgments and condemnation and feel like "wait, there hasn't been a proper trial here, just a kangaroo court." At this point in Joni's career, I feel that giving her a break would be the higher justice. And the biggest mitigating (brownie points) factor to giving her that break *is* the intergrity of her consistent honesty, whether we like or agree with the content. While criticism must have a place here, I'd hate to ever see the JMDL start engaging in that awful American tendency we are known so well for of building someone up and raising them to the pinnacle, only to then turn around and mercilessly tear them down. It's not one of our prettier traits. Kakki NP: Gilberto Gil - Um abraco no Joao ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:02:38 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: natalie merchant + all the rest In a message dated 10/4/98 4:48:20 AM, Robbert@vansprang.demon.nl wrote: >Yes, I agree about Natalie's Ophelia too. It's excellent. I first saw >her live in 1996 when she opened for Sting 2 nights in Rotterdam, in >support of her album Tigerlily, which I adore. And this August, I got to >see her (row 7!) in Mansfield at Lilith Fair, which was just >unbelievably amazing, the way she moved on stage, so sensual and so >unpredictable... This album is probably my favorite of the year, >together with TTT. I truly hope she will go out and tour. i also saw natalie at lilith and as much as i adore sarah, i do believe natalie was the most amazing performer at the dissapointing concert. her voice is amazing. i've got both her albums on my cd wishlist (which has gotten so long now with bands that have never seen mainstream light), but it remains to be seen if i can get them before next year. christmas time will hopefully yield lots of music certificates so i can lose myself in the music store for a while. - -mariana NP: Liz Phair, -Exile In Guyville- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:07:10 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: JMHP/Liner Notes In a message dated 10/4/98 9:28:23 AM, philipf@tinet.ie wrote: >Hi guys, > >It probably is an oversight. The notes on this cd seem > >to have slipped through the quality net in a hurry. There's the > >Isham issue and it says nothing about where recorded or > >mastered. Looking back she has usually just thanked the > >people involved in the mundane day to day issues of making > >the record. I may be wrong but I don't recall her ever thanking > >her parents, on a record sleeve I mean. In my limited > >experience, things like sleeve notes get done in a rush at the > >last minute when the guy from the art dept. phones up to find > >out who played on what etc. > Joni thanked her parents on the liner notes to HOSL which i think are some of the most creative liner notes i've ever seen. i love the way the poetry of the words is filtered into it. and also, joni also sings about her parents (her mom at least) on DJRD. - -mariana NP: Liz Phair, -Exile In Guyville- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:18:29 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: NYT Article and Beck In a message dated 10/4/98 11:55:50 AM, hessj@ix.netcom.com wrote: >Not only is Mitchell an influence on female songwriters from Jewel to >Madonna to Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders, she is also an influence on >male songwriters from the Artist Formerly Known as Prince to Elvis Costello >to Beck, who all sing her praises. wow, i didn't know beck was into joni! that's pretty cool. i like beck alot. he's really innovative and new. i really enjoy "odelay" alot. his new album comes out in a few months. they've been playing a song from it on KROQ a bit now. - -mariana NP: Liz Phair, -Exile In Guyville- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 13:48:57 -0700 From: Leslie Mixon Subject: Birthday Card I'd like to make a suggestion regarding the birthday card. I like the idea of the simple card, etc. Instead of signing the card from the members of the Joni Mitchell Discussion List, can we say, "From the members of the Joni Mitchell Internet Community" and list the URLs of both sites - just like the T-Shirts. Whaddya think? Leslie Steve Mixon http://www.cruzio.com/~stevem ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 13:46:08 -0700 From: ginny Subject: NYTWho's to blame? This morning I woke to the awful news of this negative article in the NYT. I just read it thoroughly and I do not think it is negative. It is just Joni. If her perfect frankness about being human makes us feel uncomfortable, we should check out the mirror for the one to blame, not Neil Strauss. She is brilliant and dumb, beautiful and ugly, humble and conceited, wise and simple. We should know, we have been listening all these years! Ginny ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:31:37 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Joni bumper stickers David W. wrote: <<>> I think such a listing should be filed under Swords--Double-edged. Who's to know what kind of control Reprise would want over the sites once they granted "official" status by promoting them this way? This has come up before on the list, and I seem to remember Marsha telling a not-so-happy story about some Gino Vannelli sites after his record company got involved. - --Michael NP: Morcheeba, _Big Calm_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:38:16 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: NYT piece Other than the headline and pull quote (two decisions most likely made by someone other than the writer), I don't really see much to grouse about in the piece. He does call her one of the most influential songwriters of the century (notice the conspicuous absence of "female"--finally!) and repeatedly lauds the quality of her work, especially the unpopular stuff. He mentions her pioneering use of world music, etc. In some ways I think the point of his piece is that, well, she may be a little arrogant, but she has some rights to that arrogance. I actually found a couple of tidbits very interesting--like Howie Klein's comments that Joni thinks her music belongs on black radio. Since I'm a soul fan before a rock fan, I intend to go listen to TTT now with that in mind. - --Michael NP: Morcheeba, _Big Calm_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:07:40 +0100 From: "Philipf" Subject: Re: Re: JMHP/Liner Notes Marilune@aol.com wrote: >Joni thanked her parents on the liner notes to HOSL Thanks for reminding me. I just checked and I agree, the notes on that record are excellent. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 14:15:38 -0700 From: Scott Price Subject: Jukebox Joni; TTT Acclaim At 06:26 PM 10/3/98 -0700, Kakki wrote: >I love you guys but you are really getting my blood pressure up today. Of >course we would all love to hear Joni perform these songs but she CAN'T. Hey Kakki, an extra-dry martini may be called for to relieve the stress! But I think that even if she *could* do the oldies she wouldn't. Her focus has always been on the current project. Today it's TTT. She's *never* been one to rest on her laurels. As I was idly watching Phil Collins on A&E's "By Request" a few days ago I was thinking about how cool it would be if Joni did one of these shows, but in a flash I realized that she never would because so many of the requests would be for "Starry Night" and she's moved way beyond that. Joni's songs, while timeless for many listeners, are for the most part timely to her only for the period in which they were written. Once they're on an album and "out there" she's already half-forgotten most of them because she's begun conceptualizing new ones. I think this shows that her muse is restless and very much alive. She has recently played a few of the older songs, like "This Train" because she feels they still have some relevance in her life and because she can still present them well with her mature voice and electronic instrument. She's a songwriter, sure, but not a songstress who's going to be identified with a string of hits which she plays over and over. Rather she is an artist who creates. With Taming the Tiger Joni has put forth paintings, lyrics, and musical colors which all add up to a work of art. I sense a great feeling of contentment in this project. Joni hasn't put out "another Hejira" or "another Court & Spark" because she's not in that place right now. The confessional mood has been replaced by one that's no less honest, but much more satisfied. Despite what some have said strikes them as being "bitchy" I think she's very much aware of her place in the world of music. She knows the realities of dealing with company executives and refuses to compromise her standards. TTT has social commentary which allows her to strike back a little as well as stories of childhood, friends, parents, and lovers. It describes her current sphere. And it's all woven together visually and musically...with honesty and occasional humor. A complex album from a complex artist--not an artist with a complex. TTT is BBB--big, beautiful, and bright. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 17:19:07 -0400 From: DSK11 Subject: Re: The NY Times Article Janet Hess wrote: > So help me, I don't think it's all that bad. I agree. But, I don't think anyone who isn't familiar with Joni's work would go out and buy one of her albums based on this article (which includes a critical-eyed, weary-looking picture of her looking off to the side), so I guess it's not a very positive piece of publicity. I'm intrigued by this article, though. It shows Joni to be gifted, complex, cranky, and insecure underneath all that bravado, which is what her music shows, so where's the surprise? Some of the lines made me smile, such as "I'm not a pitiable creature," she says. "It's just that I suffer very eloquently." I picture Joni laughing as she says this. And I like the description of TTT; it's not reduced to a one-word label or simple description as other writers have done. Even though the writer brings up New Age, he doesn't insist on fitting her music into that category. Some of the writing is really odd, though. Such as: "She blames Charles Mingus. . . ." WHAT???? That makes it seem so personal, like Mingus himself was responsible for her music-business difficulties. The rest of the paragraph softens that impression, but what a provocative way to start. And mentioning the "smelly tuna fish sandwiches" and "lights her 5th or 11th cigarette and exhales" makes me think Neil Strauss didn't like being with her very much. But I did get the impression that he knows and respects her music. And, once again, there's a comparison of Paul Simon's Graceland to Joni's earlier use of African music. This really bugs me every time I read of it. It's not clear in this article whether Joni again complained about the attention Simon got with that album, or whether the writer is mentioning it, but every time I hear of this complaint I want to say to Joni, "yes, you used that type of music first, but don't you know how self-centered you are? You used those sounds only to satisfy yourself and do what you wanted to do with your music." That was probably part of Paul Simon's motivation also, but in addition to satisfying his artistic self, he made it a political statement and made the world more aware of the effects of apartheid. Exploitation by Paul Simon? maybe. I'm no expert on Simon, South Africa, or politics. I just know that what he did in using that music went beyond Paul Simon and beyond me as a single listener. And Joni's work doesn't; it's Joni and me -- her heart to mine. (Her "political" songs just seem like a strident list of complaints and certainly don't move me to action.) I'm not complaining that she does the heart-to-heart type of music (since I have every album/CD she's done; and have awaited each one for the last 28 years, obviously I love her work), but I get really annoyed each time (and it seems to happen often) I hear of her complaining about the lack of attention given to her use of world music. It's like comparing two different animals -- stop it. OK, rant ended. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:51:45 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: accolades and honors.... I must share my amusing and (now) ironic mondegreen in relation to the song "Taming the Tiger." I originally thought she was singing "accolades and yawners." No kidding! > and what is this with all of you who found it admirable & amusing for joni to > refuse to do an encore because one person in the front section yawned during > her chicago set? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:55:54 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: No apologies Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more Hey Mr. Head, No apologies indeed! I agree with every word of your recent posts. And I think it was completely appropriate for you to express your ideas in this forum. Yet I'm still annoyed with the NY Times. As far as I know, they have never featured Joni in their magazine section, and when they finally do, this is what they focus on? I'm convinced that Joni is completely neurotic and probably umpleasant to be around 50% of the time, but this is news??? She's not a murderer or a racist or an anti-semite, she's a prima donna who has never learned not to sweat the small stuff. I tried to put myself in the place of the typical NY Times reader who has probably not given Joni much thought in 20 years, wondering "Why am I supposed to care about this?" A better article would have included much, much more about her *work.* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:43:11 EDT From: Charstarl@aol.com Subject: Re: NYT piece (JC) In a message dated 10/4/98 3:01:05 PM Mountain Daylight Time, mwyarbro@zzapp.org writes: << Other than the headline and pull quote (two decisions most likely made by someone other than the writer), I don't really see much to grouse about in the piece. >> Michael -- this is an excellent point! I read the article in its' entirety and had the same reaction as you. It was really a pretty interesting and thought-provoking piece. However, the headline editor should be put out to pasture. Char* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:50:09 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: accolades and honors.... nonsense kakki! no one is tearing joni down. everyone on this list knows that everyone else on this list has nothing but respect and love for this woman who has enriched all of our lives in ways that can never be adequately calculated! none of us would be here if this were not so. but that hardly means that we need to support rude, unconscionable behavior like refusing to do an f-ing encore because some poor slob had the temerity to yawn in the middle of one of her songs. why should we cut her a break for such off-the- charts-childishness??? this is a list of intelligent articulate fans, not a bunch of sycophants who are somehow obligated to to support her no matter what she does...or says... and i also did not think the ny times article all that bad. and i also think that great art requires great ego and that those who manage to produce it are entitled to a certain amount of churlishness. does anyone remember when norman mailer was on the dick cavett show decades ago and dick dragged out an empty chair to sit beside norman? "this is for your ego" he said. even norman had the good grace to laugh. if her little tantrum in chicago (or boston, 14 years ago) is any indication, joni would probably require a full size couch, love seat and a couple of ottomans to spare. which leads me to the other point i have been meaning to make to the list in general for some time now. ever since the brilliant thread on feminism and ani difranco...i was very impressed with the list on that discussion and many others lately. i think we have all (me here most of all) learned how to disagree without being disagreeable and i think we all deserve some accolades and honors for how civil we have all been of late. i get a huge kick out of this list when everyone gets riled up over one thing or another. especially when it is done with such intelligence and wit and courtesy as seems to be the approach of late. good job. bless us...don't let us lose the drift. peace, ric (and kenny! i KNEW you would come through! you are the balls!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:47:48 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: tix in ny i apologize, but at this late date, i don't know what i'm going to do about tickets for joni at msg tomorrow. i'll most likely be at a rite-aid at nine am to buy in person, but that might not be the most reliable source. ken grant did some great research and came up with these numbers of tri-state rite-aid ticketmaster outlets that said they'll be selling at 9 am tomorrow. 201.507.8900 914.454.3388 516.888.9000 203.624.0033 203.744.8100 609.520.8383 i'm considering just doing bdts, but i'm also considering doing cheap tix at msg ($35) as i'm planning on seeing her again 3 days later in maryland. but i don't want to promise anyone anything, for which i'm truly sorry, but the whole thing has got me truly pissed. really not into seeing dylan again. really really not. patrick np - wolf that lives ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:50:10 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: Jukebox Joni; TTT Acclaim In a message dated 98-10-04 17:15:56 EDT, sp@olympus.net writes: << As I was idly watching Phil Collins on A&E's "By Request" a few days ago I was thinking about how cool it would be if Joni did one of these shows, but in a flash I realized that she never would because so many of the requests would be for "Starry Night" and she's moved way beyond that. >> well said scott! i was watching the a&e live by request show with phil collins just last night and had the exact same thoughts. about how cool it would be to see joni do that type of show (is james taylor some sort of jukebox because he came out and sang what his fans most wanted to hear? james knows how to please his audience and i doubt if he feels compromised by doing so...) and, one microsecond later laughing. "like THAT would ever happen!" but having said that, i still persist though in longing for her to drag out a few of the oldies for her true fans. mix up the set. a rocking version of free man in paris? oh, i bet it wouldn't kill her. and when the audience leapt to their feet to shake the rafters with their approval, i bet old joni would feel pretty good about it too. that is one of the more interesting things about this ego of hers. she wants the acclaim, but she won't take the easy road to get it. gotta admire that i guess. but still. still. still.... thanks for your wise comments. peace, ric ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:18:07 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Seven Errors of Observation I think Les should run a contest seeing if we can spot the "Seven Errors of Observation" which Joni found in the 1996 NYT article by Stephen Holden. Seriously, it seems that Joni sees a glass that's 90% full as completely empty. Stephen Holden has been one of Joni's ardent defenders though the years, albeit not a sycophant -- he had the temerity to critize the music of HOSL. To my eyes, his observations have always been sensitive and have reflected a real understanding of his subject -- not just the usual journalistic crap. Joni: it would not cost you one iota of *artistic* integrity if you sucked up a little on the PR side. It's not even sucking up; sometimes it's just plain good manners. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:22:46 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Joni bumper stickers Is it typical for a record company to promote an ** unofficial** web site? I am assuming that Wally's site is still unofficial, legally. No suits from Reprise tell Wally what to do. Right? I do agree that it would have been nice for Joni to thank Wally, although she did thank him on the H&M collection. > I too was surprised, to put it mildly, by the omission from TTT's liner > notes of Wally or his site. I see it not only as a bit of a certainly > unintentional insult to Wally, but as another case of Reprise missing the > boat as far as promoting Joni. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:22:28 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: accolades and honors.... Ric wrote: >nonsense kakki! no one is tearing joni down. everyone on this list >knows that everyone else on this list has nothing but respect and >love for this woman who has enriched all of our lives in ways that can >never be adequately >calculated I was thinking more about the press tearing her up a bit and the fear of some JMDL'ers picking up the scent and running with it. My point is that we get our info pretty second and third hand around here and were not there ourselves to interpret Joni's context. I don't think asking for a little compassion toward Joni makes me a synchophant, either. The older I get the more I see wisdom in letting some things go. Deb says that Joni never learned to to "not sweat the small stuff." I don't think we should "sweat the small stuff", either when it comes to Joni. Calling her bitchy, egocentric, neurotic, arrogant, selfish, spoiled etc. in the same breath of saying how much we all love and respect her sometimes makes me feel that our love and respect is a whole lot more conditional than we express. It's almost like saying "Joni, you should be grateful that we love you so much even though you are so terribly flawed and . We are all flawed - it's our lot in life for being born human. What helps us overcomes our flaws is love and compassion far more than being judged. Enough sermonizing, Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 98 23:40:33 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: tix in ny Patrick and all, These are local *TicketMaster* numbers, nothing to do with Rite Aid. *Some* Rite Aid pharmacies in NY are TicketMaster outlets (call to double check b4 you go!) Also bring cash, they don't accept credit cards on the first day... These non-NYC numbers might prove easier to get through to (e.g., no busy signals/circuits) -- MAYBE, I don't know. I did learn that Celine Dion tix (don't know when or where her concert is -- and don't care for that matter) will be going on sale tomorrow as well, which should help to tie up TicketMaster's lines considerably, thanks to her popularity :-( -Kenny On 10/4/98 trxschwa wrote: Kenny did some research and came up with these numbers of tri-state rite-aid ticketmaster outlets that said they'll be selling at 9 am tomorrow. 201.507.8900 914.454.3388 516.888.9000 203.624.0033 203.744.8100 609.520.8383 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 19:49:57 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: NYTWho's to blame? At 01:46 PM 10/4/98 -0700, Ginny wrote: >This morning I woke to the awful news of this negative article in the >NYT. I just read it thoroughly and I do not think it is negative. It >is just Joni. If her perfect frankness about being human makes us feel >uncomfortable, we should check out the mirror for the one to blame, not >Neil Strauss. She is brilliant and dumb, beautiful and ugly, humble and >conceited, wise and simple. We should know, we have been listening all >these years! Ginny and all, First of all, I think most of us on this list saw nothing new about Joni in the NY TIMES Magazine article. It's not her frankness that made me uncomfortable. As Deb Messling wrote: "I'm convinced that Joni is completely neurotic and probably umpleasant to be around 50% of the time, but this is news???" Im looking at this from a purely PR perspective, and I think it's a publicity disaster, and I wouldn't doubt that Joni and her people are furious. Bottom line, is that Joni's fans love her music. I don't really know what she's like. Sure it's fun to speculate, but who cares. Secondly, for all of you out there in jmdl-land who read Doug's typed up post of the NY TIMES "article"--- you did not experience the same presentation of the photojournalism comment of her photograph and the headlines and additional headlines in bold print scattered throughout the article. The New York Times chose to highlight: THE PHOTOGRAPH: Could the lighting be any more harsh that it was? AS 'dskart' wrote: "a critical-eyed, weary-looking picture of her looking off to the side" (Im not talking about a woman looking her age, they managed to make her look much older than she appears in person! (Remember the darkening and shading of OJ on Newsweek?) Im not saying that the photo was retouched, but let's face it, it's possible to make a 40 year old person look elderly with a certain type of lighting....clearly the photographer's intention was to show Joni in a **harsh light.** (Suddenly Madonna doesn't seem so controlling in insisting on photo control for every interview she does.) THE HEADLINES: 1. "THE HISSING OF A LIVING LEGEND" 2. AT 54, JONI MITCHELL HAS SUDDENLY FOUND HERSELF IN THE POSSESSION OF A DAUGHTER, A GRANDSON AND A DESIRE TO WRITE LIGHT SONGS. YET SHE COMPARES HERSELF TO MOZART, HATES POPULAR MUSIC AND HAS NOTHING BUT CONTEMPT FOR THE WHOLE NOTION ON LILITH FAIR. 3. ONE GUY CAME UP TO ME AND SAID, "YOU'RE THE BEST FEMALE SINGER-SONGWRITER IN THE WORLD," MITCHELL REMEMBERS. 'I WAS THINKING: "WHAT DO YOU MEAN FEMALE? THAT'S LIKE SAYING THE BEST NEGRO." (This makes her sound like an unappreciative brat.) I refuse to try and pretend that this article will be in anyway perceived in a positive light by a typical reader. As Deb wrote: >>I tried to put myself in the place of the typical NY Times reader who >>has probably not given Joni much thought in 20 years, wondering "Why >>am I supposed to care about this?" >>A better article would have included much, much more about her >>*work.* All you jmdl journalists out there, (Paul I,) what do you think? Im angry as I would be for any person I care about who is featured in a far more **bitter** than sweet way. Would an article about Norman Mailer focus on his gazillion marriages and personality shortcomings? Sure, I've read tons more articles on Barbra Streisand being a control freak, but the photos that accompany the articles are always stunning. (Sorry for all of you purists out there: Joni might consider herself an artist, but she is also in the entertainment business. Id like to see the NYTImes get away with describing in detail Dylan's bad breath or Van Morrison's body odor.) Im writing a letter to the NY TIMES MAGAZINE and I hope others will too: magazine@nytimes.com -JulieZW, who sees far more shadows than light in this article and I promise no more from me today ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:43:46 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Toast and Jam! (NJC) Hello All- I feel like a burnt english muffin today. We were out till 5:30am last night and we rocked till almost the dawn. The party was a huge success and it was fun playing with so many different people. FOR MORE INFORMATION ON THE ROLAND VG-8 PLEASE CHECK OUT THI8S SITE: http://www.vg-8.com/vg-8.html Gotta go to bed. I am getting to old for all this wildness. And OH BOY, we are going to The House of Blues tomorrow night to catch Alice Cooper. It should be hilarious. Hope everyone had a great weekend. We went to the Saints/Patriots football game today and unfortunatly, New England had a stroke of luck (must have been Ashara's angels again watching out for them and making the refs make bad calls. Had a great dinner and now I'm off to the arms of Morpheus. Love Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:48:24 EDT From: Leenycas@aol.com Subject: NYT piece and a little more My day got off to a poor start at 7am with the NY Times piece everyone has been discussing on the list. When I first read it, I was upset. On a second reading much later in the afternoon, I was less upset but still unsettled by the tone of the article. As someone else on the list mentioned, I don't recall her saying she has comtempt for Lillith Fair nor did I see a comparison to Mozart. The only Picasso comparison I saw was mentioning Picasso was restless and he kept changing and changing. I can see where the concept of Lillith Fair might not turn her on--I think she might view it as a man versus woman thing which she is totally against. The author of the piece also said she proceeded to clarify some remarks she made, and then doesn't let us in on what she wanted to clarify. He feels she just wanted to keep herself out of trouble. Very possible, so why not print what she said and let the reader decide if she's trying to squirm out of trouble. As far as her remarks about the tour are concerned, they didn't surprise me and they didn't upset me. When I first heard about this tour, I thought, why is she doing it this way? I think opening for Dylan in large venues is going to be a very difficult experience for her. It seems to me that she had trouble holding the audience's attention on the West Coast tour, the same thing could happen on this one. She's had a lot of problems in the past in this kind of atmosphere and is probably a wreck thinking about what might happen out there. I also found the photo very unflattering; I thought the lighting was harsh. I don't care if she's showing her age, either. I'm 46 and way past caring about that; what upset me most about the photo was that to me, she looked very pale and very tired. She has two conditions, post polio syndrome and hypoglycemia, that require rest and proper diet. From what I've heard about touring, both are in short supply. I'm wondering if she'll even make it through the entire tour without coming down sick. Let me just say I'm not making excuses for her. I know she has a big ego, but I would have liked to have seen some context also in this piece. The incident in Chicago was a turnoff for me also. I know she has her moods and can be very unpleasant. I also will never put too much stock in whatJackson Browne said about her either; he lost all credibility for me when he said she was still carrying a torch for him. Did anyone see the ad for the Madison Square Garden show? I found it interesting that they put song titles on both Dylan and Joni's pictures--his was "Don't Think Twice" and hers was "Big Yellow Taxi"---Gee, I thought they had both put out more recent work than that! Colleen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:09:18 -0400 (EDT) From: pswmusic@interport.net (Esquizito) Subject: Re: tix in ny So lemme get this straight: We're not doing a JMDL "block?" E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:19:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: The NY Times Article - ---Duane wrote: > It just sucks being lonely within our daily lives of the > appreciation of the music of Joni Mitchell. That other people don't "get it". And Joni says in Facelift: "Love takes so much courage Love takes so much shit" People I talk to about the JMDL are surprised that there are as many as 450 of us (all over the world, no less) who love her music. I'm truly thankful for all of you jmdlers out there. It makes the release of TTT even more special. Experiencing a new Joni album has always (necessarily) been a solitary celebration. But not anymore. Very much Joni, Brian np: CNN-Cold War === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" except the rest of the excalibur _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 Oct 98 01:52:51 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: tix in ny Hi E, Some of us were thinking about group tix -- until we looked into it last Monday. MSG has a group desk, but, believe it or not, group tix don't go on sale until TWO DAYS AFTER tickets have been on sale to the general public. If the concert were to sell out on Mon or Tues we'd all be sol, so group tix are not an option -- -Kenny On 10/4/98, Esquizito wrote: So lemme get this straight: We're not doing a JMDL "block?" E. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:03:32 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: The NY Times Article And those are just people with internet access! I hope sooner or later every Joni fan takes a look at jm.com. I know there isn't many of us so the chances are pretty good! Brian Gross wrote: > People I talk to about the JMDL are surprised that there are as many as 450 > of > us (all over the world, no less) who love her music. ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | | | "Every disc a poker chip, every | | song just a one-night stand." | | -Joni Mitchell | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:02:27 -0400 From: heather Subject: Re: Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) At 03:03 PM 10/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >It's not right, but Performers like Van Morrison can get away with >sulkiness and rudeness because they are men, but more importantly, they >sell a lot more records. Unfortunately, in our culture, a woman, who >wants to sell something, can not get away with the same foibles. But, >what about Roseanne? How come she can pull it off? She's just as up front >about misogeny (sp?) in the entertainment world. She's not beautful, she's >rude, crude and bitchy, but she is also extremely powerful in a business >sense, and she's one of the richest women in the business. Julie & all- Unfortunately it is like this for most (maybe 90%) of the women in any kind of business. How does it go ... if a man is agressive it's a positive thing, if a woman is agressive she is a bitch. Hence .... feminists. Joni is just having HER say whatever way SHE wants to say it. my .015 cents worth :-) Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:43:45 +1000 (EST) From: Helen Gill Subject: Re: Good Morning Morgantown? I always thought of "Morgantown" as being fictional, and i found it interesting, but possibly just coincidence, that Morgen is infact the german word for morning......so the song in german would be "Morgen Morgentown"....a touch confusing for the germans I'd say. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:43:24 -0400 From: "Marsha" Subject: Re: Joni Bumper Stickers - -----Original Message----- From: Roger Walker To: Joni Mitchell listserv Date: Sunday, October 04, 1998 12:44 PM Subject: Joni Bumper Stickers >I have made bumper stickers before and would be happy to >make 'em for us! I can do some "drafts" and then put 'em >up on the internet for everyone to look at. In fact, it >really wouldn't be that difficult to have several styles.... >All we need is ideas! >-- > >rog and they still look good, 5 years later! Hi, Rog. Will you make me: "Taming the Tiger in my tank!" Thanks, :-D Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:21:11 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) At 10:02 PM 10/4/98 -0400, Heather wrote: >Unfortunately it is like this for most (maybe 90%) of the women in any kind >of business. How does it go ... if a man is agressive it's a positive >thing, if a woman is agressive she is a bitch. Hence .... feminists. Joni >is just having HER say whatever way SHE wants to say it. >my .015 cents worth :-) Joni >is just having HER say whatever way SHE wants to say it. Heather, I have no problem with HER saying whatever she wants, but is it an anti-feminst response for me to question some of her alienating comments from a PR perspective? Im not talking about her private persona, but her public/professional one. I do have a problem with how the press can play with an aggressive woman's comments... and I think she does too. I cannot negate the fact that certain things mean a lot in our culture. If I believed, however, that she had chosen the the photo of herself that they used, AND approved the article then she is indeed "having HER say in whatever way she wants to say it." JulieZW ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:50:52 +1000 (EST) From: Helen Gill Subject: TTT and other crisees (fwd) Michael I hope you don't mind me forwarding this one to the list, I found it very funny and thought it might get us a heap of sympathy in our plight down here. I haven't had a hot shower in a week, and toast gets a bit dull after 5 in a row.....I'm in Melbourne...."Gas Free...hundreds and millions of...gas free". ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Michael Hi Helen I just found out through CC Music that it's not called TTT but "Facelift". They said its coming but couldn't give me a release date. No gas in Melbourne Rotten water in Sydney Blackouts in QLD and now no new Joni album for possibly weeks. Its a bloody shambles isn't it ........ michaelb@coolgold.com.au http://www.coolgold.com.au/~michaelb/index.html On the other hand You have 5 fingers!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:44:50 -0400 From: heather Subject: Re: Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee At 11:21 AM 10/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >This is an interesting point that Roberto brings up here. Which exactly >of Joni's earlier songs would *be* the right songs? Yes. This is an interesting point. I remember from somewhere (tape tree? tape video?) that Joni said "Cold Blue Steel & Sweet Fire" would be better done with an older more mature voice (not her exact words but something like). I think her voice is just right now to do that song. She could paint that song different with her huskier, heavier voice now. I, for one, would go wild to hear it! Are six >recognizable songs really going to satisfy a crowd that came mostly to >hear Dylan? > What about if she toured with jazz groups instead of Dylan? BTW - has anyone seen this CD by a performer named "INOJ" ?? Can anyone fill me in on this? >> >> I still think the best thing she could do - this is selfish, of course, >> because it's what I want her to do - would be to bite the bullet, ditch >> Dylan, and do a Joni Mitchell tour of small venues. With Brian Blade, Larry >> Klein, etc. > >Wouldn't that truly be heavenly? > >Mark in Seattle >(ok, I'll go away now) > Yes it would Mark!! & don't you dare go away;-) My skin crawls everytime I hear she is playing with Dylan. Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:01:48 +1000 (EST) From: Helen Gill Subject: joni dream going along with the joni-slumber-experiences, I once dreamt that she attended a family gathering....picture Joni in Australia, hot summer chewing on a burnt old steak (or was it a sausage), flies buzzing around, (that whole 'throw another shrimp on the barbie' thing) and chatting away to me about god knows what..something along the lines of..."Oh Helen, that chop there is getting a bit charred". helly. http://fly.to/helly ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 23:06:54 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now Dear List, Mr. David Marine has sent me this kind request: I don't think I want to wait a few months. Would you mind leaving the list now? With all due respect (and that's not much), this list is supposed to be about Joni Mitchell, not you. David thank you for your kindness and diplomacy. I suppose I have been a little too prolific and self centered in my postings. Maybe Joni has rubbed off on me. But of course if I am going to leave this list it will be my decision and not solely because of the kind recommendations of Mr. Marine who has taken it upon himself to be the JMDL police. I will not be censored. If however the list as a whole thinks it would be best for me to leave, I will be happy to oblige. Very Truly Yours, - -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 23:17:14 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: a request from David Marine for me to Leave the list now (NJC) In a message dated 10/4/98 11:08:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Chilihead2@aol.com writes: << I will not be censored. If however the list as a whole thinks it would be best for me to leave, I will be happy to oblige. >> Chili, Please don't even think about leaving. Everyone has a place here. Anyone who doesn't like a post has a delete button if they so choose. "We just come from such different sets of circumstance." Hugs, Ashara ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:25:06 +1000 (EST) From: Helen Gill Subject: Re: TTT: How much $ well, if Australia ever get the album....I reckon we here would be paying about $30.00 AUST for it....and going by our dollar right now, in US dollars that'd be...TOO MUCH! just another whine from me flipping around in my half full cold bath in my gassless house! oh its exciting though to be in a "crisis"....ever so. bye then! helly. (oh, does the fact that i use lots of exclamation marks make people think i must be 14 too???) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #395 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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