From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #394 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, October 4 1998 Volume 03 : Number 394 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Orlando@jmdl.com -Tampa@jmdl.com Sunrise@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Invitation! Please Join Us! (JMDLC) [Charstarl@aol.com] Re: accolades and honors.... [Mark or Travis ] Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) Corrected Version [Charstarl@aol.com] UK Review (a bit late) "The Independent " - (JC) - a little misunderstanding [Bounced Message ] NYT Article: Here it is [Janet Hess ] Re: Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Re: My last two cents on Joni the Bitch [catman > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 11:09:21 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: accolades and honors.... RickieLee1@aol.com wrote: i got to thinking about that song. as much > as i love it (and as much as lindsay love's it) the lyrics are in my extremely > humble opinion, about the phoniest bunch of crap to ever come from the pen of > our pal, joni. "accolades and honors, one false move and you're a > goner....BORING" oh come off it joni. what a load of crap. you LOVE the > accolades and the honors because you feel, AS DO I (i hasten to remind you) > that there is no one in music today more deserving of them. Ok, I'll bite. No I don't think they're a load of crap. She has commented on this time & again. She didn't show up to accept the R&R Hall of Fame award mostly because she didn't feel it was much of an honor to be included with people that she felt did not contribute much to Rock & Roll. She also follows 'accolades & honors' with 'one false move & you're a goner'. Her comment is more on the fickle nature of the business she's in - you're lauded one day, dumped on the next - than commenting on the value of receiving awards. Look, I certainly don't think of Joni as a goddess, above reproach. She is not some stone commission, she *is* flesh & blood. Sometimes she infuriates the hell out of me. Yes she is arrogant. I think her trememdous talent entitles her to a certain amount of that but she does sometimes take it too far. But one thing I have *always* admired about her is her honesty. It comes through in her interviews (and sometimes it ain't pretty) but more importantly it *always* comes through in her music. You'll have to argue yourself blue in the face to change my mind on that point & then you probably still won't succeed. > > am i the only one who thinks these lyrics are transparently false? > > and what is this with all of you who found it admirable & amusing for joni to > refuse to do an encore because one person in the front section yawned during > her chicago set? I'm making some assumptions here since I wasn't actually at this concert. Maybe Dougie can fill us in. But my gut tells me that this audience had a lot of people in it with a lot of money & all the inherent prestige & trappings that go with it. I also feel that a large part of that audience probably walks around with braces on their brains. No way most of them were gonna 'get' what Joni's music is about these days. I'm sure she sensed that and when someone in the front row yawned it was the last straw. If I had been in her shoes I would have been pissed off too. She really *is* human, you know. Do we want to be selective of which faults we will allow her & which faults we will deny her? How was that, Ric? (with all due respect for your opinion & Chili's and anyone else's. This is just my $.02.) Thank you all for listening. Please pick up a copy of my book 'Mark in Seattle's Not-So-Humble Opinions on the Non-Goddess Joni & Other Matters' in the lobby for the incredibly low price of $29.99. Mark in Seattle getting off the soap-box now. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:08:18 EDT From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: The NY Times Article In a message dated 98-10-04 13:20:21 EDT, you write: << Joan may very well be one of the most gifted people to have walked the planet, perhaps the reincarnation many times over of a great artist. BUT, you don't win friends and influence people, or get them to come out and see you and buy your albums when you tell them that. >> Oh, My Friends, With all due respect...... I disagree. This article is so status quo, I don't even perceive it as unflattering. Clearly, Joni knows that ultimately what is most essential, enduring, important, meaningful and downright base.... the ART. She's on the inside track, knowing full well that it's not about making friends, influencing people or touring. Surely, we here have identified with the superiority of the product or we wouldn't be here! I'm giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, regarding knowing the history of Joni's "survival" techniques, in order to retain the ability to produce original, incredibly inspiring, and often superior music in the "throw away" environment of the popular song. Difficult artist, yes, but necessarily so. The ego of Picasso, yes, but necessarily so. It just sucks being lonely within our daily lives of the appreciation of the music of Joni Mitchell. That other people don't "get it". But I, like Joni, am sticking to my guns, in the steadfast belief that it is the art which endures ultimately, not record sales or popularity. Not that we would mind a lessening of the lonely nature of our admiration. My thought is that it is on the selfish side to charge Joni for not making another Court and Spark. To enable us here to sit around a room full of ourselves in just how "right" WE were all along about Joni. The important thing is that we know it ourselves. Pontificating, maybe......"no doubts, that's always been a tricky one for me" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:11:43 EDT From: Charstarl@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_907524704_boundary Content-ID: <0_907524704@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Actually, yes, I have read many articles and reviews that mention the advancing ages of Van, Bob Dylan, and other rock stars. Remember, even Pete Townsend wrote that "h hoped he'd die before he got old" and I've read that he feels that that statement is still true and he's using it metaphorically as in "not get old in the Spirit and Heart while the body ages." These artists are pushing the envelope as no one expected pop stars or rock stars to still be out there doing it after 40. Or at least, most of my generation didn't expect it. (I turn 47 next week.) That's what makes Joni's music so important. I've grown along with her and love al her changes. In regard to her "complaining" -- I think she is a lot like Pete Townsend -- urbane, witty, intellectual, artistic, and a keen observer of the music biz. You think she's opinionated -- have you listen to Van Morrison's rants on the music and media industries silly demands on artists. I think after all these years they have a right to voice their opinions. The road to creativity is a lonely one at times and life on the Road is hard even, if your a rich star. I rather the honest complaints, observations, and artistic output than the other extreme which is, dare I say it? SILENCE. My cents. Love to all for this interesting discussion, Charlotte* PS thank you Mr. Chili for delineating the difference between "Bitching," being called "Bitchy" and being a "Bitch." We must always be careful how we use our words. Thanks for your care. C* In a message dated 10/4/98 8:56:04 AM Mountain Daylight Time, amadden@bconnex.net writes: << Subj: Joni & Age Has anyone noticed from reading all the different reviews of TTT, the frequent references to Joni's age? I wonder if male artists like Dylan, Clapton and Van Morrison have to constantly deal with this age issue???? >> - --part0_907524704_boundary Content-ID: <0_907524704@inet_out.mail.bconnex.net.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay20.mx.aol.com (relay20.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.66]) by air08.mail.aol.com (v50.16) with SMTP; Sun, 04 Oct 1998 10:56:03 -0400 Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net (chmls06.mediaone.net [24.128.1.71]) by relay20.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id KAA26434; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org (080020908e73.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.147.247]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00778; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id KAA03237; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:50:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id KAA03228 for joni-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bconnex.net (bconnex.net [205.189.200.9]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id KAA03216 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amadden.bconnex.net (iah1-55.orillia.connex.net [209.212.40.55]) by bconnex.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA27100 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:45:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981004174542.006c453c@mail.bconnex.net> X-Sender: amadden@mail.bconnex.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 10:45:42 -0700 To: joni@smoe.org From: Anne Madden Subject: Joni & Age Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: Anne Madden Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Has anyone noticed from reading all the different reviews of TTT, the frequent references to Joni's age? I wonder if male artists like Dylan, Clapton and Van Morrison have to constantly deal with this age issue???? - --part0_907524704_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 11:21:13 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee Robert Holliston wrote: > I agree with Kakki that there are many older songs she probably couldn't > sing now (don't get me wrong; I'm thrilled with the expressive intensity > and rhythmic freedom of her '90s voice, I just don't think "Carey" would be > a good choice at this point). I also agree with Evian that there are some > older songs - like "River" - that she could not only handle but bring fresh > intensity to. > But the other point is: she *did* sing many songs from the '70s during her > May tour! They just weren't the right ones for the Dylan audience - most of > them clearly don't own Hejira, and they won't own Taming the Tiger. For a > lot of these folks, "River" or "My Old Man" probably wouldn't do it, > either. This is an interesting point that Roberto brings up here. Which exactly of Joni's earlier songs would *be* the right songs? At the Gorge she sang 'Big Yellow Taxi' and 'Woodstock'. Aside from those 2 songs (and I'm not even sure that 'Woodstock' qualifies since most people know the CSN&Y version and probably find Joni's practically unrecognizable) the only bona fide 'hits' I can think of are 'You Turn Me On (I'm a Radio)', 'Help Me', 'Raised on Robbery' and 'Free Man in Paris'. Are six recognizable songs really going to satisfy a crowd that came mostly to hear Dylan? Just wondering... > > I still think the best thing she could do - this is selfish, of course, > because it's what I want her to do - would be to bite the bullet, ditch > Dylan, and do a Joni Mitchell tour of small venues. With Brian Blade, Larry > Klein, etc. Wouldn't that truly be heavenly? Mark in Seattle (ok, I'll go away now) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:27:09 EDT From: Charstarl@aol.com Subject: Re: accolades and honors.... Ric -- You and Mr. Chili have me on a roll so I better respond to this post as well. Why are performers, artists, and other creative spirits not allowed moods? Do they owe us something? As a friend of mine from the Van List wrote in regard to Mr. Morrison's frequent sulkiness and tantrums on stage. He is there to be in the Music. He is the conduit of Creative Spirit. His mood isn't a personal attack on the audience. It's the impossibly high standards set by the artist, fanned by being a human being, and having to deal with music and media types. I don't want to sound preachy, but have a lot of Joni's or any musician's audience, been back stage before a gig? They deal constantly with travel arrangements that go awry, equipment damaged or mishandled, promoters that don't do their jobs, or fulfill their part of the contract. Then there is usually some ignorant drunk or stoned "fan" fawning over the performer or the (same adjectives apply) "non-fan" yelling obscenities or for them to play their hits. Not to mention the artist might have had a fight with a loved one, or is constipated from road food, or just tired. Seems that if we love our particular artists then we need to be as supportive as possible of their work and cut them some slack when they vent their frustrations. 'Nuff said -- Charlotte* NP Robbie Robertson & the Red Road Ensemble --Music for The Native Americans In a message dated 10/4/98 9:03:47 AM Mountain Daylight Time, RickieLee1@aol.com writes: << and what is this with all of you who found it admirable & amusing for joni to refuse to do an encore because one person in the front section yawned during her chicago set? my teeth start to grind at the very thought of such a rude, conceited, childish, unbecoming, selfish act! get some sleep chicago, indeed. ounds like joni's the one who needs a nap. geez. having sat thru a concert where joni stalked offstage because (allegedly) someone had the audacity to arrive late, i don't find anything to admire in such behavior. suggests to me (along with those phony lyrics from the title cut of TTT) that, in at least that one area of her psyche, joni mitchell is as obtuse as the rest of us. >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 11:39:41 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: the NY PIC Wolfebite@aol.com wrote: > > there's a color pic on the website of joni- if it's the same one as in the > magazine itself- well- i like it- sure she's showing her age- but i think its > better than the made-over, gauze-veiled images we have been seeing. She's > beautiful with all the lines and worn edges. > > doug I really like the photo that accompanies the TTT review in Entertainment Weekly. B&W with no apparent gauze. She has a wonderful face, lines & all. Mark in Seattle (ok so I lied, I really will go away now....maybe...depending on the next post I read...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:42:45 EDT From: Charstarl@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) Corrected Version This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_907526566_boundary Content-ID: <0_907526566@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sorry for the repost but I'm struggling with Spell check and I hate typos! C* In a message dated 10/4/98 12:14:17 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Charstarl@aol.com writes: << Subj: Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) Date: 10/4/98 12:14:17 PM Mountain Daylight Time From: Charstarl@aol.com Actually, yes, I have read many articles and reviews that mention the advancing ages of Van, Bob Dylan, and other rock stars. Remember, even Pete Townsend wrote that "he hoped he'd die before he got old" and I've read that he feels that that statement is still true and he's using it metaphorically as in "not get old in the Spirit and Heart while the body ages." These artists are pushing the envelope as no one expected pop stars or rock stars to still be out there doing it after 40. Or at least, most of my generation didn't expect it. (I turn 47 next week.) That's what makes Joni's music so important. I've grown along with her and love all her changes. In regard to her "complaining" -- I think she is a lot like Pete Townsend -- urbane, witty, intellectual, artistic, and a keen observer of the music biz. You think she's opinionated -- have you listen to Van Morrison's rants on the music and media industries silly demands on artists? I think after all these years they have a right to voice their opinions. The road to creativity is a lonely one at times and life on the Road is hard, even, if you're a rich star. I rather the honest complaints, observations, and artistic output than the other extreme which is, dare I say it? SILENCE. My cents. Love to all for this interesting discussion, Charlotte* PS thank you Mr. Chili for delineating the difference between "Bitching," being called "Bitchy" and being a "Bitch." We must always be careful how we use our words. Thanks for your care. C* In a message dated 10/4/98 8:56:04 AM Mountain Daylight Time, amadden@bconnex.net writes: << Subj: Joni & Age Has anyone noticed from reading all the different reviews of TTT, the frequent references to Joni's age? I wonder if male artists like Dylan, Clapton and Van Morrison have to constantly deal with this age issue???? >> - --part0_907526566_boundary Content-ID: <0_907526566@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-ya04.mx.aol.com (rly-ya04.mail.aol.com [172.18.144.196]) by air-ya01.mail.aol.com (v50.16) with SMTP; Sun, 04 Oct 1998 14:14:16 -0400 Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net (chmls06.mediaone.net [24.128.1.71]) by rly-ya04.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id OAA09413; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org (080020908e73.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.147.247]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22395; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id OAA06896; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:13:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id OAA06887 for joni-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:12:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id OAA06883 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:12:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Charstarl@aol.com Received: from Charstarl@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id SYQLa22759 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:11:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <81c07352.3617ba5f@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:11:43 EDT To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 167 Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: Charstarl@aol.com Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Actually, yes, I have read many articles and reviews that mention the advancing ages of Van, Bob Dylan, and other rock stars. Remember, even Pete Townsend wrote that "h hoped he'd die before he got old" and I've read that he feels that that statement is still true and he's using it metaphorically as in "not get old in the Spirit and Heart while the body ages." These artists are pushing the envelope as no one expected pop stars or rock stars to still be out there doing it after 40. Or at least, most of my generation didn't expect it. (I turn 47 next week.) That's what makes Joni's music so important. I've grown along with her and love al her changes. In regard to her "complaining" -- I think she is a lot like Pete Townsend -- urbane, witty, intellectual, artistic, and a keen observer of the music biz. You think she's opinionated -- have you listen to Van Morrison's rants on the music and media industries silly demands on artists. I think after all these years they have a right to voice their opinions. The road to creativity is a lonely one at times and life on the Road is hard even, if your a rich star. I rather the honest complaints, observations, and artistic output than the other extreme which is, dare I say it? SILENCE. My cents. Love to all for this interesting discussion, Charlotte* PS thank you Mr. Chili for delineating the difference between "Bitching," being called "Bitchy" and being a "Bitch." We must always be careful how we use our words. Thanks for your care. C* In a message dated 10/4/98 8:56:04 AM Mountain Daylight Time, amadden@bconnex.net writes: << Subj: Joni & Age Has anyone noticed from reading all the different reviews of TTT, the frequent references to Joni's age? I wonder if male artists like Dylan, Clapton and Van Morrison have to constantly deal with this age issue???? >> - -------------------- Return-Path: Received: from relay20.mx.aol.com (relay20.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.66]) by air08.mail.aol.com (v50.16) with SMTP; Sun, 04 Oct 1998 10:56:03 -0400 Received: from chmls06.mediaone.net (chmls06.mediaone.net [24.128.1.71]) by relay20.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id KAA26434; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org (080020908e73.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.147.247]) by chmls06.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00778; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id KAA03237; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:50:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id KAA03228 for joni-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:50:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bconnex.net (bconnex.net [205.189.200.9]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id KAA03216 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amadden.bconnex.net (iah1-55.orillia.connex.net [209.212.40.55]) by bconnex.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA27100 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:45:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981004174542.006c453c@mail.bconnex.net> X-Sender: amadden@mail.bconnex.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 10:45:42 -0700 To: joni@smoe.org From: Anne Madden Subject: Joni & Age Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: Anne Madden Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Has anyone noticed from reading all the different reviews of TTT, the frequent references to Joni's age? I wonder if male artists like Dylan, Clapton and Van Morrison have to constantly deal with this age issue???? - --part0_907526566_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 12:40:15 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: UK Review (a bit late) "The Independent " - (JC) - a little misunderstanding From: Bkparlour@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 01:04:57 EDT Andy Gill reviewed TTT thus in the Independent of 2/10/98: The maturity towards which the the Costello/Bacharach album aims (DLM aside : this album is reviewed directly alongside) is present in a more acute form on Joni Mitchell's TTT, a timely repository of tart commentaries and sad observations. The tiger in question is pop music, a form which, for a brief period in the sixties and seventies, appeared to be the lever for significant cultural change, but which has since been reduced, in Joni's eyes, to "genuine junk food for juveniles", the province of "the kids in the hood/and the whiny white kids" - as succint a critique of degenerative youth culture as any you'll hear. The sour tone continues in songs such as "Lead balloon" and "No apologies", further criticisms of the way America is hurtling hellwards aboard a hand- cart. But the soft musical texture undercuts her anger, its pallid, jazzy terrain of sax, occasional pedal steel and Joni's own "guitar orchestra" offering no great obstruction to the course of modern pop. It is better suited really, to the lilting bonhomie of "My best to you" and the mournful "Man from Mars", the latter so devastatingly expressed that I had to check whether Ms Mitchell's ex-husband Larry Klein was simply separated, and not dearly departed. ©The Independent, Newspaper Publishing, London Don't be too hard on the man, after all, I wouldnt have guessed in a month of Sundays that "the Man from Mars" was about a cat without hearing about it through the JMDL! As for the rest, well, each to their own. For anyone who's interested, the same issue carries a review of the forthcoming "Velvet Goldmine" soundtrack album - (the Glam-rock tribute film) which is reviewed favourably but with a certain .er.. double edge. There's a reference to Radiohead's Thom Yorke as follows .. "Thom Yorke's impression of Brian Ferry will have many revising their impression of him as a humourless sourpuss" Personally I can't wait to hear someone having the guts to take on any of the songs from the first Roxy Music album - as he does here. Also, for anyone still reading, there's a comprehensive put-down of Lauryn Hill's new album - which I gather has garnered rave reviews elsewhere. David Mascall ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 12:41:09 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Joni Queen Ungrateful Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 12:50:53 -0500 From: Alan Referring to the debate below.. Don't you just love it when hear people arguing, and they are both right? Joni won't do what it takes to become more popular; it would run against her self image. In Lead Balloon, when she says "I threw my drink... Tequila trickling down his business suit." I immediately thought of TI; her self portrait in Van Gogh's image, and the title track where she says, "The madman hangs in fancy homes. They wouldn't let him near! He'd piss in their fireplace!" Joni sees herself as a modern day Van Gogh (and at least for her older work, I think the comparison is appropriate); she casts herself in the role of being a social misfit, and she takes pride in it. I don't know if it's human nature, or just western culture, but we always want the people we admire to be perfect in all respects. Joni is not perfect. I guess I do have to disagree with Kakki in one regard, character and talent are unrelated. Think of some of the great geniuses: Michelangelo, Van Gogh, Newton; by all reports, these guys were just about complete assholes. But when we're looking at their art; or in Newton's case, learning calculus, do we think "Jeez, these guys were really creeps"? No way, we are in awe of their talent and perception; we see them as being on a higher plane. And here is where I agree with Kakki. Because she is Joni, because of the gifts she has given us already, it's very hard to judge her objectively. I really like TTT. But if it was some unknown person who made the same album? Hard to say. But I too, am inclined to "give her a break." In the (really excellent) Vogue 95 article, she said "I'm 51, and I've just had one of the most enjoyable years of my life. My bleeding years are behind me. Now I have rich people's problems, and you can't make songs out of rich people's problems." What an amazingly honest thing to say. She mentioned in the Good Morning America interview that she wrote most of the music for TTT before setting down the words. She knows she is no longer the poet she once was. But should we begrudge her her fame and fortune and maturity? Not me. I listen to TTT and smile. It's not C&S, or HSL, or Hejira... the density of metaphor, the insightfulness, the loneliness; all gone. But it's still beautiful, and I'm glad she's sharing it with us. Yes, I too sometimes wish she would stop complaining. But that's always been a part of her personality. I can't think of a single album that was free of complaint. Just my two cents... Alan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 14:51:29 -0400 From: Janet Hess Subject: NYT Article: Here it is Here's the NYT article. So help me, I don't think it's all that bad. Granted, I'm not thrilled with her comments about touring. But I don't think the article itself is all that negative: the title and first paragraph trumpet (apologies to Mr. Isham) more than is there, IMHO. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Hissing of a Living Legend At 54, Joni Mitchell has suddenly found herself in possession of a daughter, a grandson and a desire to write light songs. Yet she compares herself to Mozart, hates popular music and has nothing but contempt for the whole notion of the Lilith Fair. By NEIL STRAUSS Slices of afternoon sun cut through the blinds of a darkened second-floor room in the Hollywood Athletic Club as Joni Mitchell, cigarette hanging limply from her thick lips, bends over a pool table and meticulously lines up a shot to sink the solid yellow ball. "You're stripes," one of her pool partners yells. "Oh," she exclaims and switches angles. She is distracted. There is too much going on. Present in the room are a mixture of friends and family members. Her friends are all men, mostly younger, outdoor, athletic types. Her family members, by contrast, are more cerebral and artistic. Her daughter, Kilauren Gibb, whom she met for the first time a year and a half ago after giving her up for adoption in 1965, is a model (as her mother once was) whose real wish was always to be on the other side of the camera (like her biological father, a Toronto photographer). Now she takes pictures of her 5-year-old son, Marlon, who seems like a model and actor in the making. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- Neil Strauss is a pop-music writer in the Los Angeles bureau of The New York Times. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- "Pretend like you're excited," Paul Starr, Mitchell's close friend and makeup artist, tells the blond tyke as he widens his mouth and eyes adorably. Paul mimes snapping a photo. "Now pretend like Joni's going away," he says. Marlon pauses for a moment, and then pulls a forlorn, drooping face. A faux photo is snapped again. "That was hard," Marlon says. "I couldn't imagine why Joni would be going away." Suddenly, at 54, Mitchell has settled down. In the last two years, she has become a mother and grandmother simultaneously. Seeing the family together, one would never know that she, her daughter and grandson had ever been apart. Some musicians feel that they must sacrifice the joy of raising a family because of their commitment to their work. Mitchell always seemed like this type of artist, but now she seems to be relishing her new role. For someone whose art and life have always been intertwined, this development is bound to have implications for her music. "The coming of the kids hasn't come out in my art yet," she says, referring to her latest projects -- a new album, "Taming the Tiger," a television special and a book of poetry. But she has recorded music with Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter and "they're convinced," she said, "they can hear my family in my tone. It has a more full-bodied femininity." That's just the beginning of the new, complete, ever-changing Joni, one of the most influential and immodest songwriters of the last 30 years. Since inheriting her new family, Mitchell has suddenly become acquainted with pop culture. She watches "Taxi" reruns, reads kids' books to her grandson, spends more time shooting pool and hanging out with her family and has rediscovered Disney movies. "I used to be monastic, almost," she explains with a touch of wistfulness. "Now I'm like a Tibetan that has discovered hamburgers and television. I'm catching up on Americana." Disney, in many ways, is responsible for Mitchell's career. Watching Bambi as a child in Saskatchewan, she says, made an artist out of her, inspiring her to pick up crayons and draw forest fires, which led to art school, which led to an unwanted pregnancy (with Kilauren) that forced her to drop out and take up music in Canada's folk clubs. Between pool shots, Mitchell, wearing a loose-knit sweater and jeans, speaks words that fans of more complex albums like "Hejira" and "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" thought they'd never hear: "I don't like to make fluffy little songs but now I want to make some light songs," she says. "I think that comes from watching a lot of comedy. People will probably not enjoy it as much as the deep suffering that I've done in the past. And I don't even know if I can do it." When it comes to her music, Mitchell can be humorless. People describe her as "bitter" and a "loose cannon," and those are her friends. Over the course of three days of conversations, Mitchell will compare herself to Mozart, Blake and Picasso; she will say that the lyrics to one of her songs "have a lot of symbolic depth, like the Bible" and describe her music as so new it needs its own genre name. In discussing her autobiography in the works, she will explain that there is no way to fit her life into one volume. She needs to do it in four. (She already knows the first line: I was the only black man at the party; colleagues say she sometimes feels "like a black man in a white woman's body.) Mitchell is not a forgetful woman. Like Santa Claus, she remembers who's been naughty and who's been nice. Speaking of a New York Times profile written in 1996, she recalls that there were "seven errors of observation in the piece." On the nice side, she let Janet Jackson sample her song "Big Yellow Taxi" for the hook of "Got 'Til It's Gone" because Jackson had once spoken favorably of Mitchell's album "Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm." And she distinctly remembers being excited by seeing the chins of four people of different ages quiver during her performance of "Summertime" this summer on the original Woodstock site. "You think I got a trap mind or something?" Mitchell asks when I make the Santa Claus comparison. "I guess I do." Howie Klein, the president of Reprise, her recording label, says it can be a challenge working for Mitchell. "She distinctly feels her music belongs on black radio," he says. "Sometimes I get the feeling that she thinks I'm keeping it off black radio. We may not see eye to eye on every detail, but I have so much respect for her that I'm willing to subsume my own way of thinking to hers." Yet even as she lives up to the stereotype of the difficult artist, Mitchell is "a good-time Charlie," as she puts it, in her private life. This is evident in her friends' comments about her as well as in the good-natured way she loses her pool games. Though Mitchell's most-loved work is her most melancholy (particularly her introspective "Blue" album), her music, and particularly her newest album, is also filled with joy. "I'm not a pitiable creature," she says. "It's just that I suffer very eloquently." "Taming the Tiger" is a beautifully sung jazz, rock and classical fusion album, neatly extending Mitchell's body of work. In the tradition of "The Hissing of Summer Lawns" and "Hejira," it is a self-produced, meticulous album that incorporates jazz musicians and harmonies, but stands on its own as a complete composition. Like her more recent Night Ride Home, the overall sound is sparse, reverberation-drenched, highbrow and contemporary. The album is simultaneously beautiful and frustrating, with moments of pitch-perfect poignance as well as moments of overwrought mood music that makes you wish that Mitchell would be more open to outside input while recording. When I dare make a comparison to New Age, she bristles, "It's composed music. After 19 albums, many of which have been heavily criticized upon their release only to be hailed as classics years later, Mitchell is upset by the album's mixed reviews. She blames Charles Mingus, the seminal jazz bassist, and her 1979 collaboration with him, "Mingus," which succeeded in confusing both her fans and his. (She has a habit of trying to perfect musical standards, whether putting words to Mingus's compositions or, more recently, tinkering with lyrics to Gershwin songs.) "When I did the Mingus project, I was advised what it would cost me," she remembers. "I took that seriously but I couldn't believe that I would lose my airplay. It kicked me right out of the game. It was a great experience, one of my fondest. . . . I would do it today even knowing what it costs, but it certainly cost me. It took me some years to get back in it. And my work is still reviewed but radio stations don't play me. VH1 and MTV don't even touch me." Despite her growing weakness for pop culture, "Taming the Tiger" is filled with disdain for the entertainment world. The title is an allusion to success and the music industry, and the difficulty of controlling them. To compose the title song, she forced herself to listen to pop radio for several days and then came up with lyrics like "I'm a runaway from the record biz/From the hoods in the hood/And the whiny white kids/Boring!" Although Mitchell is credited as the godmother of current female singer-songwriters and the spiritual muse of the Lilith Fair, the successful all-female summer tour put together by Sarah McLachlan, she has always held such sisterhood, particularly with imitators, somewhat in contempt. ("Girlie guile/Genuine junk food for juveniles," she sings in "Taming the Tiger.") All of her life she has been considered the grande dame of female singer-songwriters, and all of her life she has tried to be so much more. "One guy came up to me and said, 'You're the best female singer-songwriter in the world,"' she remembers. "I was thinking: 'What do you mean female? That's like saying you're the best Negro.' Don't put a lid on it: it transcends boundaries." Not only is Mitchell an influence on female songwriters from Jewel to Madonna to Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders, she is also an influence on male songwriters from the Artist Formerly Known as Prince to Elvis Costello to Beck, who all sing her praises. Yet, despite such recognition, Mitchell is remarkably discontent. Even the mention of a positive article merits the response, "It broke my heart to read it." Her ego is a complex thing. In her mind, she feels that she's one of the greatest artists of the 20th century. Yet in her heart, she must have doubts or she wouldn't need the affirmation. Much of it stems from a frustration that even as she has done better work, she still can't eclipse the popularity of her earliest music. At lunch at the Daily Grill in Brentwood, her home away from home, we talk about the trappings of the popular-music game over smelly tuna fish sandwiches. For years, she rightly complained of a lack of recognition and appreciation compared with that of the male musicians of her era. But in the past four years, she has won a Grammy Award for Best Pop Album, been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and been honored with a Century Award from Billboard magazine. Still, she categorizes many of her awards as "dubious." "It's like that line of Dylan's: 'You know something is happening here but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?' That's what most of my honors felt like," she explains. "They knew they had to do it but they . . . weren't quite sure what to illuminate in the work." It antagonizes her no end that the songs that have made her famous -- most notably "Big Yellow Taxi" -- are her least complex and innovative ones. After all, Paul Simon was praised for bringing together world music and pop in "Graceland," and Sting bragged of doing the same for jazz in "The Dream of the Blue Turtles." Mitchell beat them all to the punch with albums like "The Hissing of Summer Lawns," "Hejira," "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" and the live album "Shadows and Light" by making music in whatever style and tuning best suited her songs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 'One guy came up to me and said, ''You're the best female singer-songwriter in the world,''' Mitchell remembers. 'I was thinking: ''What do you mean female? That's like saying you're the best Negro.''' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- " 'Big Yellow Taxi' is nice," she says. "It's like Chuck Berry kind of skipping rope. It's a good little workhorse of a song and it's got some content. But it's a nursery rhyme. Of all the creations that are there, if you reduce it to this thing, it's a tragedy. "Picasso was restless," she adds, her face half-shaded by a straw sun hat. "I mean, he just kept changing and changing and changing." She mentions Miles Davis as well. "So those are my heroes. The ones that change a lot." Mitchell has always defined herself as being not who others have expected her to be. She came down with polio when she was 9. Five years later, having beaten the odds and recovered, she wasn't just walking, she was dancing. In her paintings, she has purposely made it part of her style to break the rules that she was taught at the Alberta College of Art (focusing on the same kind of stylistic combinations that can make her records seem difficult). When she dropped out of art school and committed to the folk circuit, where she traveled from Toronto to Detroit to New York City, she denied that she was ever a folk singer. "I came into the game looking like a folk singer but I was really playing classical art songs," she explained as she checked her watch to make sure she wasn't late to meet a friend. "Those weren't like the chords that folkies played. But I looked like a folk singer, like the girl with the guitar. And at that point I had already been a lover of classical music in my pre-teens, a rock-and-roll dancer in high school, and I had discovered jazz. So folk music was easy and I needed money for art school just because we were all on students' wages. It wasn't until I was 21 and the desire to compose and create came back . . . that I got caught between being pigeonholed by critics and laboring for the sake of commercial exploitation." Mitchell traces her feeling of being misunderstood back to the first music she made, at age 7. "I had music killed by my piano teacher," she says. "She rapped my knuckles with a ruler, which was the way they taught everybody in that era anyway, and said, 'Why would you want to play by ear' - -- that's what they called composing -- 'when you could have the masters under your fingertips, when you could copy.' So you go to art school and innovation is everything, but in music, you're just a weird loner. So I have more of a painter's ego or approach, which is to make fresh, individuated stuff that has my blood in it and on the tracks." Given all her anxiety about her career, it's perhaps understandable that the musician's life is not one she professes to relish. She regards touring as a violation of her muse and says record labels treat musicians like dumb prizefighters built to earn them purse money. "I feel pregnant with creativity, and all that touring represents to me is a delay until I can be creative," she explained as we wrapped up lunch. "I'm responsible to the company, and the company wants me to tour. In the meantime I'm probably going to lose 20 songs, by being cooperative to the game. To be responsible to the creativity, I should go on strike right now and get into my pajamas. Most of my career right after I made an album I would run away; I'd go to Europe. I'm glad I did. While I was running away from the last record, I'd be writing the new one because I'd be having a life." Speaking of her new album, she continues, "I'm already out of what this record is about." She pauses and lights her 5th or 11th cigarette and exhales. "I'm involved with family and the socializing process, which is something very exciting and very different." The night after we wrap up our interviews, I run into Mitchell at Dominick's, a new Los Angeles restaurant so trendy that it fills up every night despite its awful food. Mitchell is sitting in the middle of a table surrounded by her daughter, grandson and friends, celebrating her friend Paul Starr's birthday. When I see her, she loops her arm around my elbow like an Auntie Mame and spirits me into the foyer. As we walk, we talk about astrology. According to a book she has been reading, her daughter was born on the day of the explorer and she was born on the day of the discoverer. "She's a natural follower, I'm a natural leader," she says. "I can't help it, the stars put me there." Mitchell says that their birth dates interact in a way best suited to siblings and that, in fact, they have a sisterly relationship. Not by design, they have the same handbags and shoes, wear similar clothes and share what she describes as a "crazy bravado that comes from the Irish blood." Throughout her career, Mitchell dropped hints in her songs for her only child to find. Although Gibb knew the biography of her birth mother -- that she was a Canadian folk singer -- she never dreamed that she was Mitchell's child. Then, in 1996, The New York Times described Mitchell's search for her daughter. A friend of Gibb's, who saw the story, joked that Mitchell could be Gibb's birth mother. Gibb had only recently been told that she was adopted, and she already had a son. She decided to investigate. Eventually, she and Mitchell were united. As for the adoptive parents, Mitchell says: "We worked through all of that. I'm totally grateful to them, and Kilauren hasn't forgotten about them." At Dominick's, we sit down in two adjacent chairs, and she places her hand over mine on the armrest. She then proceeds to clarify comments she made in our previous interviews. Clearly, she has replayed the conversations and has tried to pinpoint where her natural frankness and expansiveness may have got her into trouble. There is a lyric on her new album that complains, "I'm up to my neck in alligator jaws gnashing at me." She is trying to figure out if I am an alligator, too. Her fears, however, seem dated. The alligators are gnashing less and less, and at the dinner table around the corner, she has found something to protect her from them. "I used to be too much of an illuminated scribe locked in my attic with a responsibility to my gifts," she says, laughing for once at herself. She stubs out a cigarette. Now, she says: "I long to live in a Chekhov play with relatives and aunties and the long white tables with green bottles on them, under the apple tree. That's really where I should be." Sunday, October 4, 1998 Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 15:03:28 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: Fwd: Joni & Age (JC) At 02:11 PM 10/4/98 EDT, Charlotte wrote: >I've grown along with her and love al her changes. In regard to her >"complaining" -- I think she is a lot like Pete Townsend -- urbane, witty, >intellectual, artistic, and a keen observer of the music biz. You think she's >opinionated -- have you listen to Van Morrison's rants on the music and media >industries silly demands on artists. I enjoy opinionated people. I have always said that I find "yes men" not as stimulating. But I think there is a time and a place to air these grievances...ok, maybe for some----there's never a good time or place, but airing one's negativity in virtually every interview is counter-productive for what she ultimately desires. I think Joni's artistic personality is not compatible with promotion. Im not asking her to change in anyway...But can't she just tone it down a bit? A lot of people are open, honest, blunt, opinionated, etc but ultimately as one matures, one eventually learns to temper their comments for the appropriate situation. Does this then mean that they are not as honest? It's not right, but Performers like Van Morrison can get away with sulkiness and rudeness because they are men, but more importantly, they sell a lot more records. Unfortunately, in our culture, a woman, who wants to sell something, can not get away with the same foibles. But, what about Roseanne? How come she can pull it off? She's just as up front about misogeny (sp?) in the entertainment world. She's not beautful, she's rude, crude and bitchy, but she is also extremely powerful in a business sense, and she's one of the richest women in the business. -Julie, and please, Im not comparing Roseanne's talent with Joni's here ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:06:20 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: My last two cents on Joni the Bitch IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/4/98 7:24:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Chilihead2@aol.com writes: > > << Let me tell you Kiss without makeup is UGLY! >> > > As if Kiss WITH makeup isn't? Ugh! I agree with you on that one Paul! - -- CARLY SIMON DISCUSSION LIST http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html TANTRA’S/ETHERIC PERSIANS AND HIMALAYANS http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #394 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?