From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #393 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, October 4 1998 Volume 03 : Number 393 Join the concert meet and greet lists by sending a message to any of these addresses: -Syracuse@jmdl.com Rochester@jmdl.com CollegePark@jmdl.com -Nashville@jmdl.com Atlanta@jmdl.com Orlando@jmdl.com -Tampa@jmdl.com Sunrise@jmdl.com Chicago@jmdl.com -NewYork@jmdl.com Detroit@jmdl.com Toronto@jmdl.com -Indianapolis@jmdl.com Minneapolis@jmdl.com Kanata@jmdl.com ------- JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee [Evian ] re: Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee [Robert Holliston ] Joni and Bang on a Can [David Wright ] Joni moment [David Wright ] Re: Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee ["Deb Messling" ] TTT-I can't get enough! ["M & C Urbanski" ] Invitation! Please Join Us! [Beverly ] Infuriating NYTimes piece, more [Chuck Eisenhardt ] Birthday Card ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: Joni the oldies wurlitzer ["Philipf" ] Joni & Age [Anne Madden ] No apologies Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more [Chilihead2@aol.com] accolades and honors.... [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more [Barrylauri@aol.com] Re: Birthday Card [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more ["Julie Z. Webb" ] TTT: How much $ [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: JMHP/Liner Notes ["Philipf" ] Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more ["Philipf" ] Re: accolades and honors.... [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Joni Bumper Stickers [Roger Walker ] The NY Times Article [Chilihead2@aol.com] joni in ny times: read about it [Wolfebite@aol.com] the NY PIC [Wolfebite@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 01:34:07 -0600 From: Evian Subject: Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee Hi. I have been reading the discussion about Joni's set list/her being arrogant, etc. and thought I might as well comment. I agree with Kakki and everyone else who has posted about Joni having moved on from the old stuff, and how her voice is not the same as it was 20 years ago. I do not have a musical bone in my body, but I can well imagine how frustrating it would be to have people beg for something that you have done ages ago at every show. That being said, I also think that there should be a happy medium -- some sort of compromise. I have never seen Joni live, and chances are that I never will. I know that if I did get to see her play, part of the magic would be gone if I was in a concert hall with a bunch of crabby Dylan fans (or whoever) who talked throughout the performance or yelled for "Raised on Robbery". Also, I would also be a tad disappointed if I couldn't hear at least a sampling of her various musical incarnations. So, what I am trying to say is that Joni could bring the house down with some of the older stuff AND get some attention to the newer by throwing in another 2 or 3 songs that are "Crowd pleasers". By this, I don't mean songs like "Help me" or "Both Sides, Now", since I really wouldn't want to hear them live myself. If Joni would throw in "coyote", "DJRD", and, say, "River" (which I think would sound even better, if that is possible, with her mature voice) among the songs she has been doing in her set lately, she could bring down the house AND retain artistic integrity. But then again, I would be happy to see her even if she was doing a show singing tv theme songs! Anyway, I guess what I am trying to say in a nutshell is that I totally understand why Joni won't play many older songs, but DAMN, it is still nice to walk down memory lane once in a while! Evian NP: "I drove all night" -- Cyndi Lauper ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 03:01:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee Hi, friends! I'm finding myself agreeing with everyone on this thorny issue, so I thought I'd send my two bits in, too. Way back in the Rolling Stone 1979 interview, Joni defined her position as a popular artist: "I don't believe in art that only 13 people in the world can understand." It must be unbelievably frustrating for her to keep on creating albums that she *knows* have a larger potential audience than they're reaching, and her snipes at the media and the record companies are certainly not unjustified. On the other hand, she is a "popular" artist, and popular artists sell their albums by touring and performing: her reasons for not doing this are completely understandable, but the harsh reality is that her profile and sales have suffered. The other thing popular artists do is keep their concert audiences happy with a mix of old hits and new creations. Unless they're Joni Mitchell or Miles Davis.... I agree with Kakki that there are many older songs she probably couldn't sing now (don't get me wrong; I'm thrilled with the expressive intensity and rhythmic freedom of her '90s voice, I just don't think "Carey" would be a good choice at this point). I also agree with Evian that there are some older songs - like "River" - that she could not only handle but bring fresh intensity to. But the other point is: she *did* sing many songs from the '70s during her May tour! They just weren't the right ones for the Dylan audience - most of them clearly don't own Hejira, and they won't own Taming the Tiger. For a lot of these folks, "River" or "My Old Man" probably wouldn't do it, either. I still think the best thing she could do - this is selfish, of course, because it's what I want her to do - would be to bite the bullet, ditch Dylan, and do a Joni Mitchell tour of small venues. With Brian Blade, Larry Klein, etc. Come to think of it, I was astounded to read about this new tour!! She has a hissy fit because someone yawns at a high-priced fundraiser in Chicago (they served good booze at the pre-concert reception, for crying out loud), but she'll open - OPEN!!! - for someone whose fans will far outnumber hers and will either talk or stream in and out of the auditorium throughout her set. Well, I'm finishing this post even more confused than I was when I started it. But sure of one thing: this is *not* the sort of tour that Taming The Tiger deserves.... All the best, Roberto ps - of course I'm jealous that I can't get out East to attend one of the concerts - how could y'all think otherwise? But but but....... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 06:44:52 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: "Complain, Complain," Joni, at Fantasy Island Hi Kakki, Of course someone has to defend our Joan. I just think from time to time we need to look a little more critically (using critically hear to mean examine more deeply). I adore Joan. As you know I found her performance in the garden delicious. I guess its just because I know people (for ex. with Aids) who live their lives fully without complaining who have a lot to complain about. One of my friends is full blown. He reads, he paints, he plays guitar. He writes and reads poetry and has a very full passionate life. He also holds down a very difficult job, often going into work when he is not well. He has been my inspiration to keep me from throwing pity parties for myself about my back. He lives more in one week than most of us do in a year. Funny one of his paintings is called "Girls night out". Joni would love it, it's a circle of women playing jazz and having one heck of a time. It's above his piano. So you see when I see Joni and all her success and hear about the complaining, I really can't understand it. When I heard about the Chicago incident, where she didn't do an encore because someone yawned, that sounded a little mean spirited and childish. This is what sparked me to write these last anarchistic posts. - -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 07:22:22 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: My last two cents on Joni the Bitch Hi, I am glad we sparked some debate here and I am happy to say no one burned a cross on my lawn last night or left a note in my mailbox with "Your days are numbered chili" scribbled on toilet paper. So I know I am with some great people who can discuss some very tender issues without mudslinging. First let me say, that I never suggested Joni do the Retro thing. Jimmy Buffet is not Retro because he never stopped. His songs do sound different than 20 years ago. In fact they sound better. He's a better musician and his voice is better with age. River would sound like a mellowed vintage wine at this point and oh so delicious with complexity it didn't have 20 years . I could drink a case of her. This would not be Retro. Retro is a band like Kiss. I saw them last year. They did ALL their old songs. When Peter Criss (The Cat) sang Beth you weren't crying for Beth. You were crying for Peter because his voice was that Bad. There were some late thirty early forty somethings right in back, who were very pleased. They were 16 or 17 again. This is what they came for. I found it loud and somewhat boring. We got back stage. Let me tell you Kiss without makeup is UGLY! This was Retro. This was trying to go back and recreate something that existed twenty five years ago. One lesson I have learned you can never go back, things change and I am not suggesting this for Joni. All I am really saying in a nutshell is this. Joni seems to say she is a great artist. That not too many people are up there with her in her rareified talent pool of singer songwriter. But she wants people to buy her abums. She wants recognition. She wants to be appreciated for the great art she is making. Then do the things that will bring you that. Simple. "We're all prostitutes in the game of Life"-Chili (at 20 years old) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 07:27:42 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: My last two cents on Joni the Bitch In a message dated 10/4/98 7:24:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Chilihead2@aol.com writes: << Let me tell you Kiss without makeup is UGLY! >> As if Kiss WITH makeup isn't? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 13:34:18 +0200 From: Robbert Subject: natalie merchant Chilli! Yes, I agree about Natalie's Ophelia too. It's excellent. I first saw her live in 1996 when she opened for Sting 2 nights in Rotterdam, in support of her album Tigerlily, which I adore. And this August, I got to see her (row 7!) in Mansfield at Lilith Fair, which was just unbelievably amazing, the way she moved on stage, so sensual and so unpredictable... This album is probably my favorite of the year, together with TTT. I truly hope she will go out and tour. Best, Robbert ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 00:11:02 +0100 From: David Wright Subject: Joni and Bang on a Can From the program notes to contemporary music ensemble Bang on a Can's performance of Brian Eno's Music for Airports, the bio of cellist Maya Beiser: "...Late at night after hours of practising the Dvorak cello concerto I would listen to Joni Mitchell and Pink Floyd..." I think Bang on a Can's next transcription project should be the HOSL "Shadows and Light" (thoughts, anyone?)...I'm already in heaven imagining it. - --David NP: Guesch Patti, _Blonde_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 00:42:53 +0100 From: David Wright Subject: Joni moment Our group took a bus outside of London for the first time last week, to Avebury in Wiltshire, site of some ancient stone circles -- like the more famous Stonehenge, but larger, better preserved, and thought to be older. One of the monuments at Avebury is an avenue formed by two long parallel lines of tall stones leading through a field. I was wearing my long black overcoat, which I like, and which on a windy day makes me think of (and look slightly like) the "Black Crow" picture of Joni on the Hejira sleeve. As I walked along it at the end of the day, through the grass down the avenue of stones -- wind blowing, sun setting, the only human in sight -- I was feeling a little like Joni's Black Crow flying.... ...and just then, from the field to my right, a huge flock of crows (or some other large black birds, OK?) took off into the sky. - --David NP: The Housemartins, _The People Who Grinned Themselves to Death_ ("The Housemartins say: don't try gatecrashing a party full of bankers -- burn the house down!" I say: except when Joni is playing a benefit concert for them! You go Doug!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 08:41:06 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Joni vs. Jimi forward by Ric Lee I think there was a thread on this topic long, long ago, but I've been trying to think of older songs that would suit Joni's voice and could fit in with her current sets. How about: Cactus Tree Little Green (would that be too exploitative??) Banquet Woman of Heart and Mind Court and Spark Trouble Child The trouble is, most of these songs still aren't crowd-pleasers. Joni hasn't written many crowd-pleasers. > incarnations. So, what I am trying to say is that Joni could bring the > house down with some of the older stuff AND get some attention to the > newer by throwing in another 2 or 3 songs that are "Crowd pleasers" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 09:05:59 -0400 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: TTT-I can't get enough! After listening over and over and over again, I still can't get enough of TTT!! So far "no paper thin walls, no folks above, no-one else can hear, the crazy cries of love..." along with "nice kitty kitty, tiger tiger..." constantly runs through my brain. My daughter listened to "crazy cries of love" and replied "and you think my music is SICK!" Mind you she's only 14, the thought of noisy sex grosses her out! She was amazed however, that 2 of Joni's cats look like 2 of our cats. "Nice kitty kitty, tiger tiger..." Listening to a new Joni CD is like meeting a new lover. You can't get enough, you just want to know every little tid bit about them. OK I'm a bit obsessive, but I suspect many of us joniphites are! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 10:25:52 -0400 From: Beverly Subject: Invitation! Please Join Us! INVITATION To: All JMDL Members What: Get-together; Heavy Hors d'oeuvres and Cocktails Where: The Home of Ted Maines in Orlando, Florida When: Saturday, November 14, at 7:30 p.m. until - whenever! Why: To Celebrate Joni's East Coast Tour and to Generally Have a Good Time! Hosts: Ted Maines and Beverly Wolfe RVSP To: TheFishPond@Prodigy.net or ORLTed@AOL.com by November 1 Please come! We'd love to have you! Bev and Ted ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 09:09:16 +0000 From: Chuck Eisenhardt Subject: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more Today's New York Times Magazine piece by Neil Strauss hits the diva pretty hard. The title of the piece is 'The Hissing of a Living Legend' as if to say the singlular thing to frame her at this moment in her life is her well-known, and to this writer apparently undeserved bitter reaction to a life in the machineries of pop music. I'm not about to transcribe the whole thing, 'cause it's so sickening. The log line in the index: "At 54, Joni Mitchell has suddenly found herself in possession [?] of a daughter, a grandson, and a desire to write light songs. Yet she compares herself to Mozart, hates popular music and has nothing but contempt for the whole notion of the Lilith Fair.' The whole-page picture is most unflattering. She looks 64, not 54. Strauss writes: '...Mitchell will compare herself to Mozart, Blake and Picasso; she will say that the lyrics to one of her songs 'have a lot of symbolic depth. like the Bible' and describe her music as so new it needs its own genre name'. He asserts that for TTT's 'mixed reviews':'She blames Charles Mingus, the seminal jazz bassist, and her 1979 collaboration with him, "Mingus" which succeeded in confusing both her fans and his. (She has the habit of trying to perfect musical standards, whether putting words to Mingus's compositions or, more recently, tinkering with lyrics to Gershwin songs)' In a rare paragraph mentioning the *music on TTT he says: 'Taming the Tiger' is a beautifully sung jazz, rock and classical fusion album [hmmm, maybe she *does need her own genre!] neatly extending Mitchell's body of work'. Thank you, Neil. Further: 'When I dare make a comparison to New Age, she bristles, "It's composed music." (New Age???) This aritcle is appraently available all week on AOL, keyword TIMES. First, Mr. Chilihead dares be critical, now this!!!! (Still waiting for my CDNow TTT. Wrote them a little note yesterday.) In the meantime I am constantly with Jennifer Kimball's (ex-Story) debut album 'Veering from the Wave' on Imaginary Road Records. It's a joy from start to finish. If you like the Story albums this is in much the same vein, tho it's hard to imagine that JK had all this songwriting within her that never surfaced till now. It's clear now that their breakup was a blessing. Great production (and drums) from Ben Wittman, mind-boggling guitar from Duke Levine and Marc Schulman. Infectious, moving, beautiful harmonies and arrangements, and those surprising off-center 'Story' voicings. I'd also higly recommend Dee Carstensens' new disc 'The Map'. Think Shawn Colvin-Suzanne Vega-Edie Brickell. Dee plays harp (but a bit in the style of a fingerpicked guitar) also pianos.. Great songwriting, superb production and players (when she needs a flute she gets Jeremy Stieg, when she wants a harmonica she gets Hugh McCracken, etc. Also chipping in are Marc Schulman (again) Tony Levin, T-Bone Wolk, Jonatha Brooke, Ben Wisch, Mike Mainieri. One cut 'Saviour' that's getting airplay around here is a delicious mix of groove drum loop, Ullian pipes, pennywhistles, and wall of harmonies. But I *still want my TTT! Chuck E ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 10:20:47 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Birthday Card Ok group the results are in for the voting of the birthday card. In total we received 59 votes and the winner is #16. A simple card, no larger than the "average" Hallmark type card, custom made by someone with a graphics program on their PC. The front could be the illustration from Les' web site of Joni with a cup of coffee, framed by a "squiggly" line to make it look like a postage stamp. Heading on the cover: "We've got stamps of many countries and we wish you a happy birthday!" Then at the bottom of the front cover: "Thank you for sharing so much joy and giving us so much inspiration ... from the Joni Mitchell Discussion List." On the inside, instead of signing names, we'd list by city, state and country where all participating JMDL members reside. I want to thank Jody for being our official vote counter and hope that she's not to tired at work today. ;~^) Soon we will be entering phase 2 which will be the construction of the card. I also want to note that the vote was very close and the cookbook idea was a hair away from winning. For those who were passionately devoted to this idea don't be discouraged. I think the cookbook, as some people mentioned, might be better as a Christmas present as you will have more time to work on it. You should start working on it soon! Ken ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:20:48 +0100 From: "Philipf" Subject: Re: Joni the oldies wurlitzer >Mark in Seattle wrote : >As far as I'm >concerned the day she takes to the road doing her 'old stuff just the >way she did it way back when' is the day she has turned herself into >just another nostalgia act. I admit, I would LOVE to have witnessed one >of those Miles of Aisles concerts > Your note made the most sense of any I've read since I came here. It's hilarious now to think that the crowd who were at the Miles of Aisles shows were not happy with the new Court and Spark stuff and wanted to hear more oldies. Remember her "paint a starry night again man" rant. I was at a Nassau Coliseum show on that tour and her rant to the oldies crowd on that occasion was a lot worse. Ohhhh I love it when Joni gets mad. Philip NP Cornelius - Fantasma ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 10:45:42 -0700 From: Anne Madden Subject: Joni & Age Has anyone noticed from reading all the different reviews of TTT, the frequent references to Joni's age? I wonder if male artists like Dylan, Clapton and Van Morrison have to constantly deal with this age issue???? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:47:54 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: No apologies Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more Hi Chuck and everyone, I have only one apology for what I have written this week. It is my use of the word bitch. The reason for that is that word is easily misconstrued. I am talking about Joni's bitching of course. Not calling her a bitch. I am only referring to it as a facet of her personality. Frankly, I have a bitchy side and I am PROUD OF IT. I am moving on. The short and short of it was this. Joni complains. Joni complains about not getting enough attention. Then get busy Joni. 'Nuff said. Moving on. Thanks for not roasting me into a chipotle chili and Yes I am devotee of our Joni but as the bumper sticker says "Question Authority"! - -Chili NR (now reading A Path with Heart -Jack Kornfeld ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:57:26 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: accolades and honors.... greetings fellow listers! got in the car with my 7 year old the other day and the little darling asked me to put on the kitty kitty song! and she sang it with me..."tiger tiger, burning bright...nice kitty kitty..." so, after i got back from my attorney's office with my new will, naming the sweet angel my SOLE beneficiary, i got to thinking about that song. as much as i love it (and as much as lindsay love's it) the lyrics are in my extremely humble opinion, about the phoniest bunch of crap to ever come from the pen of our pal, joni. "accolades and honors, one false move and you're a goner....BORING" oh come off it joni. what a load of crap. you LOVE the accolades and the honors because you feel, AS DO I (i hasten to remind you) that there is no one in music today more deserving of them. am i the only one who thinks these lyrics are transparently false? and what is this with all of you who found it admirable & amusing for joni to refuse to do an encore because one person in the front section yawned during her chicago set? my teeth start to grind at the very thought of such a rude, conceited, childish, unbecoming, selfish act! get some sleep chicago, indeed. ounds like joni's the one who needs a nap. geez. having sat thru a concert where joni stalked offstage because (allegedly) someone had the audacity to arrive late, i don't find anything to admire in such behavior. suggests to me (along with those phony lyrics from the title cut of TTT) that, in at least that one area of her psyche, joni mitchell is as obtuse as the rest of us. peace, ric (waiting for kenny to provide one of his spirited and articulate defenses of our joint raison d'etre) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:58:29 EDT From: Barrylauri@aol.com Subject: Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more In a message dated 98-10-04 10:18:17 EDT, you write: > > The whole-page picture is most unflattering. She looks 64, not 54. Hi Chuck. I think the picture is wonderful. Not only does Joni not allow herself to be gussied up with make-up but it shows she is comfortable that at age 54 she doesn't have to let her ego dominate who she is. After all, aren't we sick of everyone telling us we have to look twenty something when we are not!!!!!! Laurie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:08:10 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Birthday Card Doh. Maybe instead of having the cookbook as a Christmas present, we could make it available just to the list members. I would really like to have a copy of it, and I bet a lot of other people would too. Ken (Slarty) wrote: > I also want to note that the vote was very close and > the cookbook idea was a hair away from winning. For > those who were passionately devoted to this idea don't > be discouraged. I think the cookbook, as some people > mentioned, might be better as a Christmas present as > you will have more time to work on it. You should start > working on it soon! ___________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua | | | | "Every disc a poker chip, every | | song just a one-night stand." | | -Joni Mitchell | |_________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 01:27:20 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more At 09:09 AM 10/4/98 +0000, ChuckE wrote: >desire to write light songs. Yet she compares herself to Mozart, >hates popular music and has nothing but contempt for the whole notion >of the Lilith Fair.' The above statement was highlighed in the article, but nowhere in the article did I see her quoted as saying anything close to: having "nothing but contempt for the whole notion of Lilith Fair." I see this as an extremely damaging remark on Neil Strauss's part, for it will surely turn a lot of Lilith lovers off. To end the article with a resentful Joni lamenting the fact that touring keeps her from "creating," is just as damaging on Joni's part. If I wasn't such a big fan and on the fence about going to one of her concerts----- I surely would not be inspired to buy a ticket after reading this article. (The article is published on the same day that Bob $ Joni are shown in a huge advertisement in the Entertainment section of the NYTIMES.) I read articles about musicians in the NYTImes Magazine often, and I have NEVER seen a more unflattering piece on anybody, especially someone in "promo mode." I don't care how phoney the concept is, I think it's time for Joni to hire a publicist. Jackson Browne's comments about her are (partially) ringing more true as time goes by, and I say this after having nothing but contempt for him for saying what he did about her last year. -JulieZW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:38:16 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: TTT: How much $ >Mark Domyancich wrote: >Just outta curiousity, how much did everyone >spend for TTT, not including >tax or shipping? (I'm only wondering about >USers). From what I have read, >everyone has paid about $13.99. Thanks to whoever posted the latest MusicBlvd $10 coupon I just ordered TTT for a total of $5.88 delivered to my door. Can hardly wait to hear it after reading soooo many reviews. gdave NP: Tape of the Day: 10/4/70 Jefferson Airplane: Winterland, SF, CA. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 17:23:44 +0100 From: "Philipf" Subject: Re: JMHP/Liner Notes >>You know, I really think Joni should have given Wally credit in the liner >>notes of TTT. > >Mark et al - >I agree - this is a major oversight on Joni's part. How did she miss this?? >Les Hi guys, It probably is an oversight. The notes on this cd seem to have slipped through the quality net in a hurry. There's the Isham issue and it says nothing about where recorded or mastered. Looking back she has usually just thanked the people involved in the mundane day to day issues of making the record. I may be wrong but I don't recall her ever thanking her parents, on a record sleeve I mean. In my limited experience, things like sleeve notes get done in a rush at the last minute when the guy from the art dept. phones up to find out who played on what etc. Philip NP Tortoise - TNT ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 17:27:18 +0100 From: "Philipf" Subject: Re: Infuriating NYTimes piece, more >> The whole-page picture is most unflattering. She looks 64, not 54. > There's a recent soft focus picture of her in this month's Q magazine that makes her look about 23. Philip ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 98 16:32:23 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: accolades and honors.... Hey Ric! I'm gonna hold off on a "spirited defense" of Joni until I read "The Hissing Of A Living Legend" in today's NY Times Magazine (talk about seething and tooth-grinding anger!) Doesn't Neil Strauss mean "the Dissing?" Actually, there's gonna always be bad press, the problem is that Joni takes it too much to heart -- after all these years she hasn't learned to "laugh it all away..." With any luck her "people" will be busy scanning the reviews and articles and keeping the unfavorable stuff away from her, cause it *affects* her public persona -- and even her performances. -Kenny On 10/4/98 10:57AM, RickieLee1@aol.com wrote: am i the only one who thinks these lyrics are transparently false? and what is this with all of you who found it admirable & amusing for joni to refuse to do an encore because one person in the front section yawned during her chicago set? my teeth start to grind at the very thought of such a rude, conceited, childish, unbecoming, selfish act! peace, ric (waiting for kenny to provide one of his spirited and articulate defenses of our joint raison d'etre) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 12:43:25 -0400 From: Roger Walker Subject: Joni Bumper Stickers I have made bumper stickers before and would be happy to make 'em for us! I can do some "drafts" and then put 'em up on the internet for everyone to look at. In fact, it really wouldn't be that difficult to have several styles.... All we need is ideas! - -- rog and they still look good, 5 years later! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:17:45 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: The NY Times Article Hi, Having read the NY times very unflattering article of Joni, it has become clear to me if we can believe this article, that Joni has an enormously high opinion of herself bordering on the kind of megalomania that was Picasso's. Joan may very well be one of the most gifted people to have walked the planet, perhaps the reincarnation many times over of a great artist. BUT, you don't win friends and influence people, or get them to come out and see you and buy your albums when you tell them that. I think it is possible Joni has had years of syncophants stroking her into an unhealthy perception of herself. Apparently, our Joan would rather be doing other things than entertaining us on this latest tour. We are keeping her from her art. Twenty songs will be lost. I think what we should all do for her Birthday is start a fund for a Temple dedicated to our Goddess. Tongue in Cheek and with a Big Laugh 'cuz you know I love this lady. Just hate to be putting her out and making her tour. - -Chili PS. I guess I am just a naive person but I really didn't realize how big Joni's ego was. I sometimes to go to hear poetry at a local coffehouse. There is a woman there on occasion. She could be your grandmother. She writes some of THE best poetry I have heard or read. Amazing stuff. She does it, and then goes about her business. There is no EGO involved. INMHO this is stuff up there with Whitman. My contribution to the cookbook is going to be "Leggo my EGO", a nice light breakfast! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:27:36 EDT From: Wolfebite@aol.com Subject: joni in ny times: read about it HERE"S THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION The Hissing of a Living Legend At 54, Joni Mitchell has suddenly found herself in possession of a daughter, a grandson and a desire to write light songs. Yet she compares herself to Mozart, hates popular music and has nothing but contempt for the whole notion of the Lilith Fair. By NEIL STRAUSS Photograph by Malerie Marder - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Slices of afternoon sun cut through the blinds of a darkened second- floor room in the Hollywood Athletic Club as Joni Mitchell, cigarette hanging limply from her thick lips, bends over a pool table and meticulously lines up a shot to sink the solid yellow ball. "You're stripes," one of her pool partners yells. "Oh," she exclaims and switches angles. She is distracted. There is too much going on. Present in the room are a mixture of friends and family members. Her friends are all men, mostly younger, outdoor, athletic types. Her family members, by contrast, are more cerebral and artistic. Her daughter, Kilauren Gibb, whom she met for the first time a year and a half ago after giving her up for adoption in 1965, is a model (as her mother once was) whose real wish was always to be on the other side of the camera (like her biological father, a Toronto photographer). Now she takes pictures of her 5-year-old son, Marlon, who seems like a model and actor in the making. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Neil Strauss is a pop-music writer in the Los Angeles bureau of The New York Times. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Pretend like you're excited," Paul Starr, Mitchell's close friend and makeup artist, tells the blond tyke as he widens his mouth and eyes adorably. Paul mimes snapping a photo. "Now pretend like Joni's going away," he says. Marlon pauses for a moment, and then pulls a forlorn, drooping face. A faux photo is snapped again. "That was hard," Marlon says. "I couldn't imagine why Joni would be going away." Suddenly, at 54, Mitchell has settled down. In the last two years, she has become a mother and grandmother simultaneously. Seeing the family together, one would never know that she, her daughter and grandson had ever been apart. Some musicians feel that they must sacrifice the joy of raising a family because of their commitment to their work. Mitchell always seemed like this type of artist, but now she seems to be relishing her new role. For someone whose art and life have always been intertwined, this development is bound to have implications for her music. "The coming of the kids hasn't come out in my art yet," she says, referring to her latest projects -- a new album, "Taming the Tiger," a television special and a book of poetry. But she has recorded music with Herbie Hancock and Wayne Shorter and "they're convinced," she said, "they can hear my family in my tone. It has a more full-bodied femininity." That's just the beginning of the new, complete, ever-changing Joni, one of the most influential and immodest songwriters of the last 30 years. Since inheriting her new family, Mitchell has suddenly become acquainted with pop culture. She watches "Taxi" reruns, reads kids' books to her grandson, spends more time shooting pool and hanging out with her family and has rediscovered Disney movies. "I used to be monastic, almost," she explains with a touch of wistfulness. "Now I'm like a Tibetan that has discovered hamburgers and television. I'm catching up on Americana." Disney, in many ways, is responsible for Mitchell's career. Watching Bambi as a child in Saskatchewan, she says, made an artist out of her, inspiring her to pick up crayons and draw forest fires, which led to art school, which led to an unwanted pregnancy (with Kilauren) that forced her to drop out and take up music in Canada's folk clubs. Between pool shots, Mitchell, wearing a loose-knit sweater and jeans, speaks words that fans of more complex albums like "Hejira" and "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" thought they'd never hear: "I don't like to make fluffy little songs but now I want to make some light songs," she says. "I think that comes from watching a lot of comedy. People will probably not enjoy it as much as the deep suffering that I've done in the past. And I don't even know if I can do it." When it comes to her music, Mitchell can be humorless. People describe her as "bitter" and a "loose cannon," and those are her friends. Over the course of three days of conversations, Mitchell will compare herself to Mozart, Blake and Picasso; she will say that the lyrics to one of her songs "have a lot of symbolic depth, like the Bible" and describe her music as so new it needs its own genre name. In discussing her autobiography in the works, she will explain that there is no way to fit her life into one volume. She needs to do it in four. (She already knows the first line: I was the only black man at the party; colleagues say she sometimes feels "like a black man in a white woman's body.) Mitchell is not a forgetful woman. Like Santa Claus, she remembers who's been naughty and who's been nice. Speaking of a New York Times profile written in 1996, she recalls that there were "seven errors of observation in the piece." On the nice side, she let Janet Jackson sample her song "Big Yellow Taxi" for the hook of "Got 'Til It's Gone" because Jackson had once spoken favorably of Mitchell's album "Chalk Mark in a Rainstorm." And she distinctly remembers being excited by seeing the chins of four people of different ages quiver during her performance of "Summertime" this summer on the original Woodstock site. "You think I got a trap mind or something?" Mitchell asks when I make the Santa Claus comparison. "I guess I do." Howie Klein, the president of Reprise, her recording label, says it can be a challenge working for Mitchell. "She distinctly feels her music belongs on black radio," he says. "Sometimes I get the feeling that she thinks I'm keeping it off black radio. We may not see eye to eye on every detail, but I have so much respect for her that I'm willing to subsume my own way of thinking to hers." Yet even as she lives up to the stereotype of the difficult artist, Mitchell is "a good-time Charlie," as she puts it, in her private life. This is evident in her friends' comments about her as well as in the good-natured way she loses her pool games. Though Mitchell's most-loved work is her most melancholy (particularly her introspective "Blue" album), her music, and particularly her newest album, is also filled with joy. "I'm not a pitiable creature," she says. "It's just that I suffer very eloquently." "Taming the Tiger" is a beautifully sung jazz, rock and classical fusion album, neatly extending Mitchell's body of work. In the tradition of "The Hissing of Summer Lawns" and "Hejira," it is a self-produced, meticulous album that incorporates jazz musicians and harmonies, but stands on its own as a complete composition. Like her more recent Night Ride Home, the overall sound is sparse, reverberation-drenched, highbrow and contemporary. The album is simultaneously beautiful and frustrating, with moments of pitch-perfect poignance as well as moments of overwrought mood music that makes you wish that Mitchell would be more open to outside input while recording. When I dare make a comparison to New Age, she bristles, "It's composed music. After 19 albums, many of which have been heavily criticized upon their release only to be hailed as classics years later, Mitchell is upset by the album's mixed reviews. She blames Charles Mingus, the seminal jazz bassist, and her 1979 collaboration with him, "Mingus," which succeeded in confusing both her fans and his. (She has a habit of trying to perfect musical standards, whether putting words to Mingus's compositions or, more recently, tinkering with lyrics to Gershwin songs.) "When I did the Mingus project, I was advised what it would cost me," she remembers. "I took that seriously but I couldn't believe that I would lose my airplay. It kicked me right out of the game. It was a great experience, one of my fondest. . . . I would do it today even knowing what it costs, but it certainly cost me. It took me some years to get back in it. And my work is still reviewed but radio stations don't play me. VH1 and MTV don't even touch me." Mitchell on her folkie days: "I was really playing classical art songs." Photograph by Tony Russell/Redferns/Retna - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Despite her growing weakness for pop culture, "Taming the Tiger" is filled with disdain for the entertainment world. The title is an allusion to success and the music industry, and the difficulty of controlling them. To compose the title song, she forced herself to listen to pop radio for several days and then came up with lyrics like "I'm a runaway from the record biz/From the hoods in the hood/And the whiny white kids/Boring!" Although Mitchell is credited as the godmother of current female singer- songwriters and the spiritual muse of the Lilith Fair, the successful all- female summer tour put together by Sarah McLachlan, she has always held such sisterhood, particularly with imitators, somewhat in contempt. ("Girlie guile/Genuine junk food for juveniles," she sings in "Taming the Tiger.") All of her life she has been considered the grande dame of female singer- songwriters, and all of her life she has tried to be so much more. "One guy came up to me and said, 'You're the best female singer-songwriter in the world,"' she remembers. "I was thinking: 'What do you mean female? That's like saying you're the best Negro.' Don't put a lid on it: it transcends boundaries." Not only is Mitchell an influence on female songwriters from Jewel to Madonna to Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders, she is also an influence on male songwriters from the Artist Formerly Known as Prince to Elvis Costello to Beck, who all sing her praises. Yet, despite such recognition, Mitchell is remarkably discontent. Even the mention of a positive article merits the response, "It broke my heart to read it." Her ego is a complex thing. In her mind, she feels that she's one of the greatest artists of the 20th century. Yet in her heart, she must have doubts or she wouldn't need the affirmation. Much of it stems from a frustration that even as she has done better work, she still can't eclipse the popularity of her earliest music. At lunch at the Daily Grill in Brentwood, her home away from home, we talk about the trappings of the popular-music game over smelly tuna fish sandwiches. For years, she rightly complained of a lack of recognition and appreciation compared with that of the male musicians of her era. But in the past four years, she has won a Grammy Award for Best Pop Album, been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and been honored with a Century Award from Billboard magazine. Still, she categorizes many of her awards as "dubious." "It's like that line of Dylan's: 'You know something is happening here but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?' That's what most of my honors felt like," she explains. "They knew they had to do it but they . . . weren't quite sure what to illuminate in the work." It antagonizes her no end that the songs that have made her famous -- most notably "Big Yellow Taxi" -- are her least complex and innovative ones. After all, Paul Simon was praised for bringing together world music and pop in "Graceland," and Sting bragged of doing the same for jazz in "The Dream of the Blue Turtles." Mitchell beat them all to the punch with albums like "The Hissing of Summer Lawns," "Hejira," "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter" and the live album "Shadows and Light" by making music in whatever style and tuning best suited her songs. 'One guy came up to me and said, ''You're the best female singer-songwriter in the world,''' Mitchell remembers. 'I was thinking: ''What do you mean female? That's like saying you're the best Negro.''' " 'Big Yellow Taxi' is nice," she says. "It's like Chuck Berry kind of skipping rope. It's a good little workhorse of a song and it's got some content. But it's a nursery rhyme. Of all the creations that are there, if you reduce it to this thing, it's a tragedy. "Picasso was restless," she adds, her face half-shaded by a straw sun hat. "I mean, he just kept changing and changing and changing." She mentions Miles Davis as well. "So those are my heroes. The ones that change a lot." Mitchell has always defined herself as being not who others have expected her to be. She came down with polio when she was 9. Five years later, having beaten the odds and recovered, she wasn't just walking, she was dancing. In her paintings, she has purposely made it part of her style to break the rules that she was taught at the Alberta College of Art (focusing on the same kind of stylistic combinations that can make her records seem difficult). When she dropped out of art school and committed to the folk circuit, where she traveled from Toronto to Detroit to New York City, she denied that she was ever a folk singer. "I came into the game looking like a folk singer but I was really playing classical art songs," she explained as she checked her watch to make sure she wasn't late to meet a friend. "Those weren't like the chords that folkies played. But I looked like a folk singer, like the girl with the guitar. And at that point I had already been a lover of classical music in my pre-teens, a rock-and-roll dancer in high school, and I had discovered jazz. So folk music was easy and I needed money for art school just because we were all on students' wages. It wasn't until I was 21 and the desire to compose and create came back . . . that I got caught between being pigeonholed by critics and laboring for the sake of commercial exploitation." Mitchell traces her feeling of being misunderstood back to the first music she made, at age 7. "I had music killed by my piano teacher," she says. "She rapped my knuckles with a ruler, which was the way they taught everybody in that era anyway, and said, 'Why would you want to play by ear' -- that's what they called composing -- 'when you could have the masters under your fingertips, when you could copy.' So you go to art school and innovation is everything, but in music, you're just a weird loner. So I have more of a painter's ego or approach, which is to make fresh, individuated stuff that has my blood in it and on the tracks." Given all her anxiety about her career, it's perhaps understandable that the musician's life is not one she professes to relish. She regards touring as a violation of her muse and says record labels treat musicians like dumb prizefighters built to earn them purse money. "I feel pregnant with creativity, and all that touring represents to me is a delay until I can be creative," she explained as we wrapped up lunch. "I'm responsible to the company, and the company wants me to tour. In the meantime I'm probably going to lose 20 songs, by being cooperative to the game. To be responsible to the creativity, I should go on strike right now and get into my pajamas. Most of my career right after I made an album I would run away; I'd go to Europe. I'm glad I did. While I was running away from the last record, I'd be writing the new one because I'd be having a life." Speaking of her new album, she continues, "I'm already out of what this record is about." She pauses and lights her 5th or 11th cigarette and exhales. "I'm involved with family and the socializing process, which is something very exciting and very different." he night after we wrap up our interviews, I run into Mitchell at Dominick's, a new Los Angeles restaurant so trendy that it fills up every night despite its awful food. Mitchell is sitting in the middle of a table surrounded by her daughter, grandson and friends, celebrating her friend Paul Starr's birthday. When I see her, she loops her arm around my elbow like an Auntie Mame and spirits me into the foyer. As we walk, we talk about astrology. According to a book she has been reading, her daughter was born on the day of the explorer and she was born on the day of the discoverer. "She's a natural follower, I'm a natural leader," she says. "I can't help it, the stars put me there." Mitchell says that their birth dates interact in a way best suited to siblings and that, in fact, they have a sisterly relationship. Not by design, they have the same handbags and shoes, wear similar clothes and share what she describes as a "crazy bravado that comes from the Irish blood." Throughout her career, Mitchell dropped hints in her songs for her only child to find. Although Gibb knew the biography of her birth mother -- that she was a Canadian folk singer -- she never dreamed that she was Mitchell's child. Then, in 1996, The New York Times described Mitchell's search for her daughter. A friend of Gibb's, who saw the story, joked that Mitchell could be Gibb's birth mother. Gibb had only recently been told that she was adopted, and she already had a son. She decided to investigate. Eventually, she and Mitchell were united. As for the adoptive parents, Mitchell says: "We worked through all of that. I'm totally grateful to them, and Kilauren hasn't forgotten about them." At Dominick's, we sit down in two adjacent chairs, and she places her hand over mine on the armrest. She then proceeds to clarify comments she made in our previous interviews. Clearly, she has replayed the conversations and has tried to pinpoint where her natural frankness and expansiveness may have got her into trouble. There is a lyric on her new album that complains, "I'm up to my neck in alligator jaws gnashing at me." She is trying to figure out if I am an alligator, too. Her fears, however, seem dated. The alligators are gnashing less and less, and at the dinner table around the corner, she has found something to protect her from them. "I used to be too much of an illuminated scribe locked in my attic with a responsibility to my gifts," she says, laughing for once at herself. She stubs out a cigarette. Now, she says: "I long to live in a Chekhov play with relatives and aunties and the long white tables with green bottles on them, under the apple tree. That's really where I should be." Sunday, October 4, 1998 Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:31:03 EDT From: Wolfebite@aol.com Subject: the NY PIC there's a color pic on the website of joni- if it's the same one as in the magazine itself- well- i like it- sure she's showing her age- but i think its better than the made-over, gauze-veiled images we have been seeing. She's beautiful with all the lines and worn edges. doug ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #393 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?