From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #366 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, September 21 1998 Volume 03 : Number 366 JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Feminism [CTKeety@aol.com] RE: Fugazi(NJC) [jan ] Re: Ani on Feminism [DSK11 ] Ani, Joni, Feminism [Evian ] Re: Ani on Feminism (lyric) [DSK11 ] Re: Ani's "interview" with Joni ["Kakki" ] Well Put. Ani Hides the Hurt [Skin Deep ] Re: Ani on Feminism (NJC) ["Winfried Hühn" ] News from the East (NJC) [Bolvangar@aol.com] (NJC) How we talk to each other here [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: Well Put. Ani Hides the Hurt [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Ani's "interview" with Joni ["Deb Messling" ] R-E-S-P-E-C-T- even when we disagree--Aretha (if she was a JMDLer) [Chili] Re: Ani on Feminism [TerryM2442@aol.com] Gillian Welch at Tramps (SJC) [jw1327 ] Mrs.Chili's Birthday 9/21/6? [Chilihead2@aol.com] (NJC) paul mccartney/ chrissie hynde tour [Bill Dollinger ] Re: The Magdalene Laundries (NJC) ["Steven A. Blue" ] Joni smoking [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Debate, Discussion, Degenerative Discourse [MDESTE1@aol.com] practical magic [Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org] Pavement: a few words about Ani's "interview" ["Deb Thornton" <68coyotes@] Re: Birthday Card suggestions (NJC) [sherrie.good@chronicle.com] Ani Article [Steve Dulson ] MTV influences on their page [Michael Yarbrough ] Ani LATimes piece ... ["Don Rowe" ] Birthday Ideas ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: Ani's "interview" with Joni ["Kakki" ] NJC: Ani/Feminism [madmission girl ] Re: Joni in Chi-town/ B-day card [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Ani Article [Steve Dulson ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 03:07:11 EDT From: CTKeety@aol.com Subject: Re: Feminism In a message dated 98-09-20 17:58:45 EDT, you write: << Well, I guess it is time for me again to open my mouth and be struck by lightning. Perhaps ... ...it is because of the successes of past feminists that the above wish-list of female opportunity and diversity could even be compiled, circa 1998. It has become that NORM that women in western culture can enter any field... . What is left to be accomplished in this regard is mopping up after the ideological and social battle has been won. Perhaps what is needed is for Rachel and Joni Mitchell to ...... find out what constitutes the normal treatment of 95% of the world's women; aka chattel slaves. Every victory for women which is now taken for granted by many Western women remains to be fought against incredible social forces, from the ground up. But this is not the first time that an individual or a generation of cultural beneficiaries has cut itself off from the past, , without realizing that they are only standing tall because they are literally standing on the shoulders of giants. As for Joni's b-day, I recommend everyone go out and buy her albums, because her greatest charity is, apparently, herself. --Al Date >> "Bwyd, ... The rain retreats, like troops To fall on other fields and streets ... meanwhile, ... with your eyes on fire from J&B and coke ... Geared to changing rhythms ... No matter what you do, I'm floating back, I'm floating back to you." Joni Mitchell, DJRD Al, Why did Joni use this Welsh word/name? I mean, if in fact she did, as I've paraphrased her? Whom is DJRD addressing? The same women as in The Hissing of Summer Lawns? Or, possibly, is she now addressing one lone individual/psyche/archetype? "When I was three ... and wide-eyed open to it all ..." she sings. Would "Bwyd" have anything to do with the "Betty" Marsha's been interested in? Would this inner innocence, this cherished naivete, have anything to do with liberation, doll? Or some abuse victim, in the outer reality, whether Western and mop-topped, or fat ol' choich chattel chewin' on Mattel Barbies cast off into the Tenth World -- to the delight of some little girl who doesn't politicize but "beats thedrum like war"?? I object to your bundling of Joni with other faggots into a Roman candle, that ancient symbol of fascism. Joni's the one being heard now in countless shopping malls, Al, not you, not I. She's AT PLAY in the world, being played. Nor do I think Joni takes her victories for granted, as charity. Your open mouth falls on other fields and streets, like so many who beat the drums of war, rather than being heard from the lofty heavens. There it may find the echo of its thirst for love, if not the rolling thunder of the righteous. For I don't disagree with you so much as I feel you've neglected to give credit to the spiritual source of nourishment she is. And, Rachel seems to have aimed at erasing the divisions that politicizing struggle created, as it also created hypocrites like Mr. Bill. I find that also an enobling goal rather than stealing thunder. But, having been struck by lightning myself around these parts, I'll let rest my split tongue, that it may heal, Al? LVdH ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 02:43:55 -0700 From: jan Subject: RE: Fugazi(NJC) At 12:42 AM 9/21/98 -0400, you wrote: >Mariana wrote: > ><<English and are mostly on indie records.>>> > I can't believe Fugazi's popping up on this list! Just last month they were a brief subject on a Gillian Anderson list, and at that time I said 'wowsers!' to my imaginary pet parakeet. Anyway's, if Fugazi comes to your burg, check them out, as they are polyrhythmically crunching in a Dub/Wire sort of way. BTW, they're from Washington D.C. - -jan (not straight edge, but on melatonin and Cabernet) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 03:40:24 -0400 From: DSK11 Subject: Re: Ani on Feminism David Marine wrote: > IMHO it's ridiculous of Ani to present such an > incomplete definition of the word feminism. Her (Webster's) definition: > "1(a) the theory that women should have political, economic, and social > rights equal to those of men." The part she left out: "(b) the > movement to win such rights for women." So people's understanding of > the word "feminism" will vary based on their understanding of the > rhetoric used to define the movement. Good point. Ani's considering only the first part of the definition, and Joni seems focused on the second. Ani's too young to have experienced the bitter devisive fight in the 70s among feminists themselves as to how women could achieve equality, with some women demanding that the ONLY way was to be completely separate from men, and if a woman had relationships with men (even friendships), she was not really a feminist and was not part of the movement. And, of course, any woman who chose to stay home with children was an enemy. Ani and all of you probably know of this, but it's one thing to hear of it and another to have experienced it, as Joni would have ("...until you've been there yourself..."). It's feminism in this context that Joni always seems to be denying, especially when she right away talks about liking relationships with men and, in this article, how it's good for women to stay at home with kids. (That just seems to confuse Ani; she doesn't really see where it fits in.) Joni does seem stuck in a time warp on this issue; I don't understand why she hasn't expanded her definition of feminism. Maybe she just wants to avoid labels completely (well, except for the "painter" label). So my take on this article is that Ani just doesn't connect with Joni and she seems surprised and disappointed, and fumbles into talk about herself and feminism because she can't make sense of what Joni's saying. The tone of the article doesn't seem angry to me. It does bother me that it doesn't read at all like an interview; it's much more about Ani with some talk about Joni and only hints of what was actually said. Debra Shea P.S. Thanks, Deb Messling, for posting this thought provoking article. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 02:03:54 -0600 From: Evian Subject: Ani, Joni, Feminism I just deleted all my email, and so I do not have the article by Ani to refer to. Thus, I am just going to go out on a limb and try to remember some of the things in it while I construct this post. I've read all the posts, both good and bad, about the Ani article on Joni/feminism. The thing that Ani misses about Joni completely is that Joni's resistance to feminism perhaps lies in her being uncomfortable with certain feminist schools of thought. IMO, and I may be totally wrong, so don't shoot me for just guessing, is that Joni is weary of "third wave" feminism, and such thinkers as Andrea Dworkin, Cathrine McKinnon, etc. This may or may not be the case, but it is my own theory. Anyway, in Ani's article, she states that we are all feminists if we simply believe in equality for women and men. This is WAY to simplistic a definition, and I am suprised that she used it. All Ani would have to do is walk into an Introduction to Women's Studies course and she would see that the definition of feminism cannot be so easily broken down. Actually, the first women's and gender studies course that I took spent a great deal of time debating whether or not men can even be feminists... Needless to say, no easy answer was reached, partly because of the differing notions of feminism and the different paradigms from each feminist school of thought. Hence, I believe that Ani's notion of feminism, while is wholeheartedly ideal, is way too simplistic. So, Joni's resistance to feminism may stem from her own preconceived notions of feminism, which obviously isn't the same as Ani's. Of course, I could be way off and full of crap, but its just a thought I figured I would post. Evian np: Berlin -- "Pleasure Victim" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 04:21:29 -0400 From: DSK11 Subject: Re: Ani on Feminism (lyric) Lyric correction in my last message for all you lyric purists, including myself: ("...until > you've been there yourself..."). should have been "til you get there yourself..." which of course I realized after I started singing. Can't seem to think about a Joni lyric without breaking out into song, or at least a loud hum, since it is late at night here. Goodnight everyone. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:22:02 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Ani's "interview" with Joni I also was very disappointed in this piece and viewed it as cheap and opportunistic on Ani's part. I think there was a bit of a snide undertone in it which certainly doesn't exemplify feminist ideals of being supportive of other women. I am not necessarily criticizing Ani's method of "launching" off someone else to make her point. Her editorial would have much more credence had she launched off of someone who is known to be *anti-feminist*, rather than picking someone like Joni who simply uninterested in being a spokesperson for the cause. Also, using misrepresentation to set up someone who is innocent of crimes against any cause is never noble. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:39:57 -0700 From: Skin Deep Subject: Well Put. Ani Hides the Hurt I had a post with the same sentiments ready to send, then took a look at all the "flaming" over "birthdays" and "NJC", thought and did delete. For those who did not know that Ms Mitchell is releasing new material I'm glad Ani mentioned the title. It also sounded like she had sour grapes over the fact that JM ownes her music, art and produces her own recordings unlike Bo who did not. It's a shame that Ms Mitchell's interview was exploited IMO by Ani. (OK exploit is a bit heavy, however that is what took place) The fact that JM would rather distance herself from "isms" should have been sufficent. Waltzenfree np Defying Gravity-Emmylou & The Hot Band ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:58:01 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: Ani on Feminism (NJC) David asks: > How many more > misguided articles would Joni suffer if she started pigeonholing herself > as a crusader for women? Isn't it enough that she's a crusadser for > humanity? ;-) > and continues to write: > If the wordsmiths within the women's movement are unable to accept > some > of the responsibility for the public's (and Joni's) perception of the > word "feminism," then I doubt they will be empowered enough to change > that perception. Maybe it's time to find some new words. > > David > (by Ani's definition a staunch feminist) While I won't go into speculating about Ani's motives for writing her article, I think David has accurately pinpointed the problematic part of Ani's criticism. She simply uses another definition of "feminism", which virtually makes it impossible to discuss her points, because instead of arguing about subject-matter (i.e. what should be done in order to reduce gender-oriented discrimination), the argument erroneously focuses on the meaning of words. Let's keep in mind that the main purpose of definitions is to ensure that people have the same understanding of what they are talking about. If that's not the case, any discussion is nothing but futile. Maybe it's the conservatives who started this labelling game as an assault on the women's lib movement, but to fight about words instead of subjects, to create differences where there actually aren't any, only helps to support their ugly causes. In my opinion, Ani's article is an excellent example for the kind confusion that nearly always is created when people try to communicate without being aware that they are talking about different things . The "irony" she "observes" only exists within her own premise. Joni doesn't want to be labeled as a feminist, because the term is also applied (justly or unjustly...doesn't matter anymore!) to radical women's rights activists who are splitting up society rather than uniting it, only replacing the intolerance of men against women with the intolerance of women against men. ( "reverse discrimination"). By Ani's definition, (hopefully) we all are feminists, Joni being one of the most prominent. It's the actions that count, not the words describing them. Let's not allow labelling games and phantom discussions to get between our common ideas. David -- you are so right. Maybe it's time to find some new words. For instance, "humanism". And if the anti-humanists try to re-define it for their evil purposes, let's tell them this: "O.K. let's agree on your definition. Then we indeed must call ourselves inhumane. But we're still against what you are doing (e.g. euthanasia) , because it's wrong. And it's wrong because it leads to these and these dangerous consequences.." Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 06:24:28 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: Joni In Concert I'm posting a summary as a public service to those who might have been deleting whole digests recently. It's only 80% sure that Joni is going to open for Bob Dylan on these dates and cities: OCTOBER 23:Minneapolis, Minnesota (with Joni Mitchell) 25:Chicago, Illinois (with Joni Mitchell) 27:Indianapolis, Indiana (with Joni Mitchell) 28:Detroit, Michigan (with Joni Mitchell) 29:Toronto, Canada (with Joni Mitchell) 30:TBA (To Be Announced) 31:TBA November: 1:New York City, New York (with Joni Mitchell) There is no opening act yet named for this date: October 22:Duluth, Minnesota Notice that the To Be Announced dates are just before the single New York City date. It seems logical to this list that there might be additional NYC dates. Possibly the best place to get tickets for the US shows is through a web site called Bob Dylan Ticket Sales: http://www.well.com/user/smarcus/mailorder.html Their services are not available for the shows in Canada. - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** np: (As I write this, the music playing is "now playing") Elton John's "Madman Across the Water" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 06:49:01 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: News from the East (NJC) Hello all! I am getting online for a few minutes here and there in a local cybercafe....reading listmail (and personal mail) in fits and starts. I hope to get more mail out eventually -- but for now I hope somebody will be interested in a hurried update from me. I love London! -- I love our flat (even though it's small and I share it with five other people), in which author Katherine Mansfield used to live, in the Bloomsbury area of London (Virginia Woolf territory). Our Oberlin group has already been to the British Museum (my group's flat is about one minute's walk away from the back entrance), the Tower of London, the National Gallery, a beautiful version of As You Like It at the reconstructed Globe theater, etc. Some of us saw the Chinese-American composer Tan Dun's new opera, the Peony Pavilion (not yet produced in America I think) -- wow! For my own personal interest, I went to the Cecil Sharp House and English Folk Song and Dance Society. And the number of concerts coming up here I can't even begin to remember: June Tabor (YES!!!), Dar Williams, Bang On A Can, Massive Attack (can somebody tell me, is Elizabeth Fraser still touring with them?), Bjork, the Bulgarian Women's Choir, etc., etc. Then yesterday a friend and I were coming out of the Saatchi Gallery -- a modern art gallery, doing an amazing show of young American artists, remind me to talk to you about this later Doug and Patrick -- when we learned that the daughter of one of the professors in our group had been murdered Saturday evening, by an ex-boyfriend, at Bard College in Massachusetts (perhaps it has been in the news there? Ashara?). We are all a little stunned. (This comes after an incident at Oberlin at the beginning of this school year in which a freshperson was assaulted, by a total stranger, in her dorm, and almost beaten to death. It really makes me think about being cut off out here -- not only from e-mail which I have been chafing about! -- but cut off from family in case a tragedy should happen, cut off from a big community to rally around an event like this -- just the 25 or so of us.) There's so much other stuff to write about, and even more stuff that is slipping my mind right now, but no time. I miss the list! Best to all, - --David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:08:57 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: (NJC) How we talk to each other here Being the latest victim (?) of thoughtless words on the list, I feel like it's appropriate that I bring up the issue of how we talk to each other here. It is possible to disagree politely and without using words which offend other people. I think it would be nice if all of us would try to be more careful about how we say things to each other - so that when we disagree, it sounds like we're disagreeing with the idea and not attacking someone personally. Actually most people seem to be pretty careful about what they say most of the time, but sometimes it seems like things get really out of hand here. A few of you might counter my statements above with the argument that we are all adults and we should be able to tolerate disagreement. Well most people don't really like being disagreed with, no matter how old they are, so I think it's important to try to disagree as nicely and as inoffensively as possible. I like a good argument, but I don't like being called names, even if the names are only implied. My rant message the other day was serious, but also meant to be a little bit humorous. I sure felt better after I sent it. To express my reaction to the perceived criticism freed me from the hurt I was feeling. Maybe the people who used those negative words did so unintentionally and were unaware of their effect. So now they know. I appreciate very much all of the kind and supportive things people have said to me on and off the list. It's very heartwarming to know that people care about how I feel. Anyway, my view of the computer idea has shifted to feeling like it probably is a little bit over the top and that something simpler might be better. I kind of like the cigarettes and tequila idea, except that Joni should quit smoking, IMNSHO. So I'm looking forward to seeing the collection of ideas from the birthday committee in a week or two and being able to vote. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:45:44 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Well Put. Ani Hides the Hurt Waltzenfree wrote: <<>> WHAT?!? Ani was rather clearly *happy* that Joni owned her own songs, pioneering in a time when songwriters were frequently manipulated into losing rights to their work. Ani doesn't just own her songs, she owns the masters to her recordings; why would she resent Joni for savvy that doesn't go as far as her own? I think it really requires twisting oneself into knots to be offended by this one. Many of the theories about Ani's motives require a healthy dose of cynicism, but this requires a wholesale suspension of logic. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:11:09 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Ani's "interview" with Joni Kakki said: >. Her editorial would have much more credence > had she launched off of someone who is known to be *anti-feminist*, rather than > picking someone like Joni who simply uninterested in being a spokesperson for > the cause I think it's fair to call Joni an "anti-feminist." She has called feminists man-haters, compared feminism to apartheid, and according to Ani said feminism "made everything worse." I'm not an Ani fan, but I thought her piece was perfectly legitimate. If a performer makes political statements -- and Joni's pronouncements against feminism are political -- she shouldn't be surprised if people react to them. Remember in the Vanity Fair article when Joni said it was noble for women to sacrifice their careers for men? But JONI couldn't do it because "I had this talent to feed?" That has to be one of the most offensively anti-feminist statements I've ever heard uttered by anyone, and Joni deserves to be held accountable for it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:58:07 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: R-E-S-P-E-C-T- even when we disagree--Aretha (if she was a JMDLer) Hi Marian, I think you said it best with the last post about we talk to each other. We need to respect each other. I can be as tough as nails but I don't want to be in the JMDL. I see this as a sanctuary for artists and lovers of art to have a safe place to come together. - -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:13:22 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Ani on Feminism In a message dated 9/21/98 3:41:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dskARTS@concentric.net writes: << Maybe she just wants to avoid labels completely (well, except for the "painter" label). >> This is my take on it. Like the herd mentality she so dislikes, she's often made reference to not being "a" feminist. Joni is her own person, period. I also was disturbed to see Joni being used in a sense, as a platform for Ani to rant about her own thoughts on the subject. This wasn't an interview at all, IMHO. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:30:43 -0400 From: jw1327 Subject: Gillian Welch at Tramps (SJC) Hello Everyone Recently saw a phenominal show at Tramps in NYC- Gillian Welch and David Rawlings- fantastic talent, exquisite avcoustic guitar- inspired playing from Mr. Rawlings- Anyone not familiar with this woman should immediately acquaint themselves via her first 2 cd's: Revival and Hell Among the Yearlings- Now for JC: during her last encore, she brought out the guy who opened for her (don't remember his name, just that he was dreadful)- anyway, he stood far stage left in the dark, unseen bu the audience but with an open mike- which prompted Ms. Welch to say: "..you've got that Joni Mitchell thing goin' on..." which I took to be a reference to Joni's "Last Waltz" duet with Neil Young ("Helpless") wherein she sang harmony with him from the wings, unseen but definitely not unheard by the audience. A great show was had by all, opening act notwithstanding! James, the Conspiracy Chronicler ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:30:05 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Mrs.Chili's Birthday 9/21/6? Hi, Yes today is Mrs. Chilis Birthday. She wont mind me letting you know that she is 38. She looks even more beautiful to me today than when we started living together as teenagers. Just love that woman and don't care who knows it! As I reported she is working on a new sunflower painting. When it is finished. I will take some photos of it and turn it into the long ago promised Day in the Garden commemorative bookmarks. You will like them. Of course I'll add some Joni stuff to. Mrs. Chili is going to a watercolor of Joni from a Day in the Garden and I'll put the two pix together. They should be ready for the New York trip. If you want to send Birthday greetings to Mrs.Chili she's MrsChili2@aol.com. So if you're inspired today, get out your copy of Mingus and play Happy Birthday for Mrs. Chili! She will hear it. - -Bri ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:45:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: (NJC) paul mccartney/ chrissie hynde tour McCartney Organizing Concerts .c The Associated Press NEW YORK (AP) -- Paul McCartney will take to the concert stage next year to keep alive his late wife Linda's crusade for animal rights. McCartney and Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders are organizing a series of concerts next year. No dates or sites have been set for what would be McCartney's first return to the stage since becoming a widower. ``Good animal activists around the world might think, `Oh, God, we've lost a very powerful voice when we lost Linda,''' McCartney said. ``Well, we have. But my voice is there now and I'm going to try to use it. We are going to keep up her good work.'' The former Beatle said he is talking with Elvis Costello, the B-52s, the artist formerly known as Prince, Blur, Lenny Kravitz and Natalie Imbruglia about participating. Mrs. McCartney died of cancer in April. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:55:40 -0400 From: Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org Subject: TTT opinion I've listened to TTT about 10 times now. At first, I admit, I was disappointed. But here's what I feel now. Good things ________ The mood of the album is much cheerier than TI and I think that's great for Joni and her fans -- the album would never sell if it was gloomier than TI. Most of the songs are typically great Joni. Lead Balloon seems like it can get a good deal of AOR airplay (Fingers-crossed). ALmost all the songs have invaded my brain and I am hearing them over and over in my head. The Boo hoo in "Man From Mars" is striking at first, but why should we criticize levity from Joni? Not so good things The album is too short (Why a needless instrumental of the title song?) Crazy Cries and Facelift sounded better live on our JMDL tapes (I know many JMDLers flamed the critic who said Wayne Shorter's playing sounded the same on every song, but I have to say that, although I think Wayne is great, whatever instrument he is playing on some tracks, including these two, sounds way too high pitched for the songs and will detract from their commercial chances). Joni's voice sounds better on the JMDL "DAy in the Garden" tape tree than on the album (Ouch, I feel the flames). The cover of "My Best To You" is a charming idea, but Joni sounds like she's straining to hit the high notes. All in all, I'm grateful to have new Joni and I'm hoping for the best sales-wise. Maybe if Lead Balloon (the title of which I'm hoping nasty critics don't use in a negative way) gets a lot of airplay, people will rush out and buy the album. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:58:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Birthday Card with all due respect to everyone involved in the birthday card discussion, i would like to voice my agreement with wally and others that whatever is done is respectful of joni's privacy. the thing about the computer idea that bothered me was the implication that she should be in touch with the jmdl, somehow suggesting that the only reason she has not been in email contact with us is that she has not gotten around to getting a computer - surely she could afford one if she wanted one, after all. It kind of reminds me of the time my mother gave me a new telephone for my birthday, (you never call....) I am not at all convinced that she would even take a computer out of the box. I am also not convinced that i would want her to - i prefer to think her behind a keyboard of the musical variety. bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 00:22:51 -0000 From: "Steven A. Blue" Subject: Re: The Magdalene Laundries (NJC) Deb, Thank you for sharing that with.....I must admit, I always felt sometimes a man hardened by his profession and his walk in life. I once worked for a convent in NY, a school and home for dispossessed children from NYC. My hear ached for the young women and men whose lives seemed squandered there at the mercy of the church representatives.While a supervisor for a short time, I heard weeping about 2:00 AM. When I looked to see who was having such a sad sad problem, I did not find a child or a new "expectant mother/child" I found instead a nun, she had returned from a meeting of executives who voted to continue the abusive system which seemed tio have held the children prisioners. When she told me the "reality and truth" of the situation of that home, I too wept with her, the evil of the system was too great for her to fight any longer...... I visited her often when I reurned from college for vacations, when I began a career with a professional football team in NY, I again visited her. The school finally closed it's doors, and years later I returned for a visit, hoping to find a grey haired nun, beaten by the system, but still full of life....I found a chanhe of address, when I went ton the new address, I was informed that the sister passed away a few years earlier...I went to her gravesite, sat silently, and wept...I realized that in the gentle breeze that blew around me, she finally found peace with those with whom she loved..Her gravesite was not among those of other nuns deceased, however her grave was in a common place, a place designated for the children who passed away while in the care of that school and home for children before the state became involved with the administrative processes. I went to the administration building and spoke to the head sister/mother. I told her she didn't know me, but I simply thanked her for fulfilling the wish of a very influential nun. Although not catholic, sometimes character can cross all lines. The launderies depicts what the heart of this nun bled for, I know in her prayers she begged for change....funny how Joni can call up the most silent and dark parts of our lives, then give them meaning, a renewed hope, forgiveness, clarity, peace...in a strange different, clean way......she is some sort of a saint now isn't she? Who else would have the insight to bring such a thing to light in such a manner? Others have made the news and headlines, but Joni, in that special way that only Joni can get things done............ Well time to dry my tears and go back to work. A pleasant and peaceful day to you all....much love to you all SAB - -----Original Message----- From: Deb Messling To: joni@smoe.org Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 10:41 PM Subject: The Magdalene Laundries (NJC) Today I stumbled on this web page devoted to the true story of the Irish convents/prisons described in Joni's song. I can't vouch for the author's credentials -- take a look and decide for yourselves. Harrowing stuff. http://www.cs.fit.edu/~steed/magdalen.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:15:52 -0700 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Joni smoking from Lori: ... and at the same time I felt disturbed, I also thought it looked really cool ... My best friend, who was standing next to me and who is a smoker and a singer, definitely thought it was the coolest thing. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Comments? === After seeing Joni in the Last Waltz, I found a poster of her. Typical of me, I went over it, inch by inch, and was dismayed to find a pack of smokes tucked into the waistband of her skirt. She's a drug addict. It's a shame, it's tough to kick and "there but for the grace of God go I." It makes no statement of JM as a person nor does it comment on her character, (unless she insists on smoking without regards to the non-smokers around her), it is just an addiction. A horrible addiction to a drug. From that, I can't even get close to a "cool" connection. Interesting thoughts, though, Lori. MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:13:51 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Debate, Discussion, Degenerative Discourse One will usually find that the first party to resort to name calling and venomous rhetoric and ad hominem attacks is the party who does not possess facts to support their argument. Those who are innocent dont hire hordes of spinmeisters. Those who have arguments make them. One of the reasons for the breakdown in civil discourse in our country is the advent of "rude and crude" tactics first emanated from the 60's radicals. Bill Moyers "atom bomb/ice cream" commercial was the first time such tactics were used in political campaigns. Somewhere along the line in the 60's we became a society that strayed from civility in general discourse. Phrases like "squeeky wheel" and "advocacy journalism" "hit piece" commercials and the dependency on "video friendly appearance" and "polls" as opposed to issues and facts became the ruling factor in our society. The internet is enhancing this change. No one can voice an opinion without being "flamed". There is no real solution in my opinion to the future other than a general agreement among groups as per an adherence to civil rules of communication. my2c. md ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:40:20 -0400 From: Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org Subject: practical magic Check out the track list for the soundtrack to "Practical Magic." Track List: - Stevie Nicks - If You Ever Did Believe - Faith Hill - This Kiss - Marvin Gaye - Got To Give It Up - lisahall - Is This Real - Nick Drake - Black Eyed Dog - Joni Mitchell - A Case of You - Michelle Lewis - Nowhere and Everywhere - Elvis Presley - Always on My Mind - Bran Van 3000 - Everywhere - Harry Nilsson - Coconut - Stevie Nicks - Crystal - Michael Nyman - Convening The Coven - Michael Nyman - Maria Owens Do you think "A CAse of You" was re-recorded? I doubt it, though Stevie Nicks' songs were. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:48:11 -0600 From: "Deb Thornton" <68coyotes@onms.com> Subject: Pavement: a few words about Ani's "interview" I've been reading the commentaries on digest, and have responded with a few private emails, but here is one statement that the whole list could bear. Michael noted: "I think that this is the knot that lies behind Ani's critique of Joni--here is a woman she admires as an artist and as an icon, a person who true to the hype, paved the way for many performers, professional and amateur, male and female." There is a great difference between an artist who is just doing her thing, merely being herself and creating her art, merely Being, and one who consciously "paves the way" for other artists---paving is a loud, tedious, stinky, oily, steam-rollery task, and nobody has made a stronger statement than Joni about paving: "They pave paradise and they put up a parking lot." When she is perceived as being a paver of the way, she loses her subjectivity and is turned into an object by the very people who denigrate her and her artistry by turning her into an example, an ikon, a freak flag. Joni did not Pave the way for other artists; she did her music---her way, with complete artistic control; she wasn't bulldozing a path for everyone behind her or even hacking her way through a dense jungle with a musical machete. She did not wave her femaleness in front of anybody's face demanding equality, she quietly played her best, and it was sometimes two times better than anybody else, as she said. She knows the hits she's taken exclusively because of her gender; she is allowed to be bitter about that, but---and here is where Ani totally misses the boat---Joni's response is not a feminist diatribe ("you're not listening to me because i'm a girl"), but a more intriguing album next time. She knows who her peers are; i daresay she recognizes them. Ani is no peer, and i think Joni underscored that in her statement about commercialism. As for Joni's billing herself as a product---you do interviews in the hopes of selling albums---i think she baited Ani, and reeled her in and netted her. She's no keeper: catch and release. Joni's interviews are not the usual schmaltzy "listen to this cool song from my record---incidentally, it's the first single, and therefore the most commercial-sounding one" fare. She is thoughtful, philosophical, intellectual; she talks about Nietzsche. She scarcely mentions her "product." Her disdain for commercial plugs has been characteristic---obviously she didn't want to promote herself ruthlessly if she consented to an interview with a songwriter. Duh---what can a songwriter produce for her on a commercial level? Isn't that what image spinners and publicists are for? She has mentioned this phenomenon in songs starting with "For the Roses," and she indicts that mentality on Dog Eat Dog and the song "Turbulent Indigo" addresses it. In her most commercial interview (the Musician interview about Dog Eat Dog comes to mind), she says it's an "angry album," and she talks about some of the songs, giving background information that is valuable to people who listen to it, even citing some lyric changes that occurred after a car accident, showing her own revision, revealing more of her artistic process. I would characterize it as illumination vs. hype. Ani should have listened to some of Joni before the interview rather than Joni listening to Ani so that Ani so she could give her a few strokes hoping that Ani would write a spectacular report about her. She should have read some of the interviews on Wally's web page. Geez, at Joni's age, nothing could be more false, more transparent: gush, gush, now where are my nice little wordies, little girl? Here is the core paradox of feminism: It is this very process of objectification that the feminists decry (when anything female is objectified in any way)---and, simultaneously, objectification is the very process that feminists themselves indulge in, only somehow the entities that they objectify "deserve" it because they are the embodiment of "patriarchy." Objectification is dehumanizing; ultimately it justifies all the senseless slaughter that savages our planet. For our lady of duality, the feminist paradox is a no-brainer: everyone is a subject, and if you stay in the I-Thou dynamic, which is where all great artists reside, the human heart reveals itself in its hard turning. Yes, all great artists, male and female, reside in the realm that reduces no one to the status of object. Ani's interview underscored for me, again, that there are women who whine about their mistreatment, and who justify their pissiness on the corporate male system (which is undergirded by female secretaries), and there are women who go out and get the job done because it is their vocation, their calling, to do so. Joni doesn't bitch and moan---she picks up her guitar and her brushes and goes on, heedless of hype and the fiction of the moralist. She does not bear senseless reductionism. Hats off to Joni. submitted with respect, deb thornton "What's his type?" "Drunk with two pistols; makes his wife answer the telephone." --Eudora Welty's _Losing Battles_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:06:33 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: Re: Birthday Card suggestions (NJC) my last post on this topic. i had no idea who started the computer gift idea when i voiced my opposition to the idea. but if one purpose behind buying a computer was so Joni would write to the list, i do see that as a hidden agenda. in general. not personally. like i said before, a handmade gift is always more meaningful to anyone, my opinion. sherrie NP: nothing, forgot to bring CDs in today. one big boo hoo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:43:29 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Ani Article My Buddy Mark in Seattle wrote: >Instead of an interview or appreciation >piece she wrote an editorial piece. Yes, and she pretty much admitted that in the last paragraph, about having an agenda. I didn't read the article as an "attack" on Joni, just Ani (is it pronounced "Onny", By the way?) making a point she wanted to make. And Mariana wrote: >This article is accompanied by a full page picture of Joni dressed in a blue >long dress holding her guitar close. THIS IS THE JONI POSTER FOR THE '90s!!! It is a drop-dead gorgeous shot, full page, very simply composed, wonderful color, the Parker Fly a space- age accent to what is otherwise almost Grecian in concept. Wow. My copy is at home, and I forget the photogs name, but it's a great shot. Later, dudes and dudettes! ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:22:18 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: MTV influences on their page Go to: http://www.mtv.com/mtv/tubescan_launch.html Scroll down through the links in the lower left-hand corner of the screen. Click on the link marked "Influences." It will take you to a page where you can launch realaudio and quicktime files of the influence spots aired during the Video Music Awards. Joni's in there, as is Ani DiFranco saying some *un*ambiguously nice things about Joni, which is exactly what she was asked to do. ;-) - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:48:23 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Ani LATimes piece ... I've been trying to put my finger on what it was exactly, that irked me about LA Times piece Ani wrote. And I think I've finally put my focused in. Reading through it, Joni, her music, her career decisions, her opinions are used as plug-ins to help keep the soapbox together that Ani is standing on. You could effectively take Joni out and substitute any other feminist/artist/musician/politician/celebrity you choose ... and the message would still grind on. I'm not knocking the message, Ms. DiFranco is just as entitled to her opinions as anyone, but to shamelessly use such a unique and gifted person as Joni Mitchell for a "straw feminist" to prop up her personal potilical agenda is, to my sensibilities, crass. I'm left wondering why the Times didn't just remove all references to Joni, and print the piece as an open letter to the editor -- in the end, that's all it was. Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:51:28 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Birthday Ideas Just want to bring to your attention that at this time we have received a total of 2 ideas for the Birthday Card. Maybe many of you figure "someone else" is going to send in the ideas but it doesn't seem to be happening. If you have an idea, ANY idea, please send it to birthdaycard@jmdl.com Ken ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:47:52 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Ani's "interview" with Joni Deb wrote: > I think it's fair to call Joni an "anti-feminist." She has called > feminists man-haters, compared feminism to apartheid, and according > to Ani said feminism "made everything worse." I was thinking of "anti-femimist" in the context of someone who is actively and radically opposed to the ideals of feminism. I also recall Joni making the comments you cite above in more of a broader conversational context in responding to questions about why she won't let herself be labeled a feminist, and not in a specific context of taking an pro-active stance against feminist ideals. I still maintain that the way she has lived her whole life is inherently a feminist statement. > I'm not an Ani fan, but I thought her piece was perfectly legitimate. > If a performer makes political statements -- and Joni's > pronouncements against feminism are political -- she shouldn't be > surprised if people react to them. I agree with you here. Joni shouldn't be surprised if people want to question and ask her for some accountaibility for her statements. But doing so under the guise of an interview somehow seems a little bit like an ambush to me. Ani should have been more upfront with Joni. The fact that Ani was not upfront leaves one to wonder about hidden agendas and serves to detract from Ani's cause. If Ani is a true feminist, why was she not able to be upfront with her agenda in the first place? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:58:41 -0400 (EDT) From: madmission girl Subject: NJC: Ani/Feminism Debra wrote: >Ani's too young to have experienced the bitter devisive fight in the 70s >among feminists themselves as to how women could achieve equality, with >some women demanding that the ONLY way was to be completely separate >from men, and if a woman had relationships with men (even friendships), >she was not really a feminist and was not part of the movement. And, of >course, any woman who chose to stay home with children was an enemy. >Ani and all of you probably know of this, but it's one thing to hear of >it and another to have experienced it, as Joni would have ("...until >you've been there yourself..."). I must strongly disagree...Ani has, probably more than other female performers today (1998), taken such flak from her fans for who she dates and for marrying a man. It may not be within the context of an organized feminist movement, but many of her fans saw her as an icon of queerness, even though she was always about bisexuality, and then when she wrote songs about being in love with a guy many of her fans disparaged her greatly as a "sellout." So I think Ani would certainly understand that, despite her age, but I think she's also made it clear that her being with a man does not mean she's not in solidarity with other women. I think that certainly the '90s are a very different time from the '70s in the US in terms of a politically active organized feminist/women's movement, and that some younger women have created sub-groups (Riot Grrl, WAC for example) that attempt to create social change but not on such a mass scale. Though we've heard that it was supposed to be an "appreciation piece," I'd be interested in finding out more specifically what Ani's instructions were regarding the article, and what Joni was told about her. I used to be on some Ani mailing lists; I am going to try to rejoin them and see what the mood there is regarding this article. Also, I would suspect, and have read some accounts, of other women musicians who have conflicting feelings about this subject. Someone (may have been Kat Bjelland of Babes in Toyland) was asked in an interview their views on feminism and they said something to the effect of: "Why are you asking me? Why do you assume that because I'm a woman making music that I want to talk about politics?" I don't know what I think about this, because there are more political bands/singers who speak out in their lyrics and in interviews and actions (Sleater-Kinney, Ani, Kathleen Hanna, Skunk Anansie, Bis, etc.) who I greatly admire because of this outspokenness, *but* I don't want to them make that a prerequisite for my admiration of someone's work. I think some of my comments may be perceived as anti-feminist, and I agree to the extent that when one woman or feminist group attempt to speak on behalf of all women or all feminists, that bothers me. I would rather see more women thinking for themselves and making up their own minds than all agreeing with some leader for the sake of being on the proper side of a certain issue. Rachel Kramer Bussel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:02:07 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: Re: Joni in Chi-town/ B-day card I'm just back from Boston area where I went to see the the Allman Brothers. Anyone catch it on Pay Per View Sat. night? Gr8 show! Anyway, I'm just catching up on the digests. Gr8 review, Doug. I'm jealous. And no one even called you a "cheapskate gate-crasher"! Also thanks to Alan & Leslie for publicly supporting my idea on the B-day card and the many others who wrote me privately, as well. gdave NP: Tape of the Day 9/21/73 Grateful Dead: Philly Spectrum, PA. - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:43:29 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Ani Article My Buddy Mark in Seattle wrote: >Instead of an interview or appreciation >piece she wrote an editorial piece. Yes, and she pretty much admitted that in the last paragraph, about having an agenda. I didn't read the article as an "attack" on Joni, just Ani (is it pronounced "Onny", By the way?) making a point she wanted to make. And Mariana wrote: >This article is accompanied by a full page picture of Joni dressed in a blue >long dress holding her guitar close. THIS IS THE JONI POSTER FOR THE '90s!!! It is a drop-dead gorgeous shot, full page, very simply composed, wonderful color, the Parker Fly a space- age accent to what is otherwise almost Grecian in concept. Wow. My copy is at home, and I forget the photogs name, but it's a great shot. Later, dudes and dudettes! ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #366 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. 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