From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #365 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, September 21 1998 Volume 03 : Number 365 JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Tickets/NY ["Julie Z. Webb" ] VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies [Chilihead2@aol.com] Roadtrip - DED, Kyle Eastwood [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies [Chilihead2@aol.com] Marilune/Elliott Smith (NJC) [Michael Paz ] Re: UK jmdlers [AzeemAK@aol.com] Johnny Adams (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Meeting up with the UK JMDL (NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Re: Meeting up with the UK JMDL (Me, too content - NJC) [AzeemAK@aol.com] Many, many things [Michael Paz ] Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies [Beverly ] Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies [Mark or Travis ] Re: Mailing list ? (NVC) [Charstarl@aol.com] scan of the CCoL single [jussi ] Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies [catman ] Re: scan of the CCoL single [Mark Domyancich ] Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies (NJC) ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Many, many things [TerryM2442@aol.com] RE: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt [Michael Yarbrough ] RE: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt ["Deb Messling" ] Re: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt [Mark or Travis ] Grace Of My Heart ["Larry Block" ] Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies [heather ] Re: Ani Difranco interview [Johnwe2@aol.com] Re: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt [Marilune@aol.com] Re: Re: Many, many things [Marilune@aol.com] Re: (JC) My [very long] last $.02 on the Ani article [Mark or Travis ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:14:03 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Tickets/NY Ashara wrote: >dollars. If anyone is interested in paying that kind of price for a ticket, >please e-mail privately, ASAP, as I want to get back to him with a number. >Thanks! Ashara, I am emailing this to the list because I want to attract the attention of **anybody** who may have access to good seats for MSG in NY on 11/1. I will pay up to $150 a piece for two tickets for Jon and me. Thanks, -JulieZW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:14:27 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies Hi, My sincerest apologies to anyone I have offended on this list. If you don't want to receive my posts just let me know. I am not always politically correct. Nor do I want to be. I am a freethinking and freewriting person. I am also a lover of women and they have always been my greatest teachers. It's just the writer in me. Skin like cellophane when I let myself write creatively.Sorry if I have abused the list as my own personal journal. I will be more thoughtful in my postings going forward. When I first began to post , I would have found the Haagen-Daz story slightly irrelevant. Now I appreciate tales like that. Nevertheless, writers are in love with their own writing and being a natural born one, I am guilty as charged. "Going out to get some air"-Joni - -Chili ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:32:38 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Roadtrip - DED, Kyle Eastwood Just got back from a roadtrip to Raleigh to visit with my sister & some old college buddies - had a great trip and especially enjoyed the music on the way up & back. I picked up that new Kyle Eastwood disc that's getting raves here and put in the mix with the following: Lou Reed - Set the Twilight Reeling Alligator Records 20th Anniversary Collection, Disc 1 (Blues) Seal (1994) Lucinda Williams - Car Wheels on a Gravel Road JM - DED (Also picked CD up on Friday - I had only the vinyl) SMashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream Liz Phair - whitechocolatespaceegg Elvis C. - Armed Forces Led Zeppelin - Disc 2 from Box Set Was really a great mix for the road - my voice was hoarse by the time I got to Raleigh Friday night. I was thoroughly delighted with the Kyle Eastwood. I don't see how anyone couldn't just love this record - I forgot they made them this good! Joni's "Trouble Man" really swings, and the tremendous musicianship really shines. Great saxes, drums, trumpets, arrangements, etc. One gets the feeling that Joni just gets to enjoy cutting loose with her fabulous pipes and not be concerned with production of the track. Can't wait for the covers album she has in her, hopefully not too long a wait... Dog Eat Dog has never been one of my faves so I waited awhile before getting the CD. The songs are good, the lyrics of course are first rate, but the sound of this record still doesn't ring true for me. It sounds like Joni is trapped in a Toto record and trying to sing her way out. Exceptions: Ethiopia, most of Impossible Dreamer. One more note, and then I'll quit - the mini college-buddy reunion I just enjoyed came about through our 'net connection - we commented about how cool it was to be able to plan a weekend together so effortlessly, and not feel like we hadn't talked in such a long time - as far as internet use and depression are concerned, I think if someone is headed for depression, they're going to be depressed whether they're online, watching TV, listening to Judas Priest or whatever. My 10 cents for today Bob M. in SC ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:53:04 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies At 03:14 PM 9/20/98 EDT, Chili wrote: >I would have found the Haagen-Daz story slightly irrelevant. Now I appreciate >tales like that. Nevertheless, writers are in love with their own writing and >being a natural born one, I am guilty as charged. Chili, Don't change a thing. We love reading your posts! Im guessing that someone might have **misinterpretted** you writing something politically incorrect. -Julie, NJC Afficionado (sp?) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:01:16 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies Miss Julie, Thank you so much. But please don't worry about me. I am not thin skinned all the time just when I write like this. There is a initiated warrior in here. And don't forget that I am $200K Titanium man! LOL As Ashara would say Hugs, Chili :-) 'Laughing it all the way' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:17:09 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Marilune/Elliott Smith (NJC) Hey Mariana- Thought you'd want to know about the following. I posted to the list for all other ES fans. LIVE WEBCASTS UPDATE http://www.rollingstone.com/sections/performance/text/vvmain.asp?afl=mail2 + Elliott Smith, Quasi Friday, October 9 Great week end, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:26:49 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: UK jmdlers In a message dated 9/18/98 9:40:10PM, Gertus@aol.com writes: << I wanna join in the UKjmdl season. How dare you start without me! However, even though my musical horizons are quite wide, I've never heard of Lloyd Cole/Jill Sobule. I must need some education. Could someone fill me in please? >> Lloyd Cole is a delightfully urbane English songwriter; you've probably heard his songs, Jacky, they include "Perfect Skin", "Brand New Friend", "Lost Weekend" and so on. Jill Sobule is one of the best kept secrets in America: she's a quite brilliant songwriter, shit-hot guitarist and a lovely singer. The only songs of hers I've heard on the radio are "Too Cool to Fall in Love" and "I kissed a Girl", the latter being a big favourite of Whispering Bob Harris. Where are you anyway? As you'll have gathered, Jamie, Colin and me are in London, Rob is in Winchester, Lisa is somewhere further north, and I'm not sure about Patrick and any others. Anyway, much Joni, Azeem ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:26:40 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Johnny Adams (NJC) In a message dated 9/19/98 2:15:11AM, michaelpaz@worldnet.att.net writes: << Don't know if you heard or not, but the Tan Canary (Johnny Adams) died a few days ago. We did a tribute to him on the show last night. He was an amazing singer and his voice will live on. Check out his stuff those of you who have not. >> The web can be the bearer of bad tidings (I first heard about Laura Nyro's death on the Net), and so it is in this case. Johnny Adams was a great favourite of mine, a truly great singer with a huge range and an earth-shaking falsetto. He recorded the original of "Release Me", later a hit for [yechh!] Engelbert Humperdinck, and much other good stuff - I can recommend "From the Heart"; he also did an album of Dave Bartholomew songs, but I can't remember the title. Seeing him at the New Orleans Jazz festival a few years ago is a particularly fond memory. BTW, wasn't he the "Tan Nightingale"?! Azeem in London np: Rosanne Cash, "The Wheel" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:26:43 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Meeting up with the UK JMDL (NJC) Well, I'm the last of the triumvirate to report - I've had a rare old week, at the end of which I almost resigned from my job. But that's not what I wanted to talk about... It was indeed great to meet up with Jamie and Rob, and at such a great show to boot. I have to admit I'm not crazy about David Gray, but the man can certainly sing, and gets bonus marks for recognising "Say Hello Wave Goodbye" as a great song. Maria McKee was superb - it's the third or 4th time I've seen her, and I don't think she's ever been better. As Rob says, there were some terrific new songs, and she played guitar and piano like a demon and sang like an angel. She's widely quoted as saying that "Life is Sweet" sold about 5 copies. As Rob and I both bought it, who are the other 3?? Only gripe: she was seated through the whole performance, so barely visible. I would also like to report that Jamie's performance in "Absence and Presence" was a delight: he does an uncanny representation of a drunken lecher - did that take a lot of research, Jamie? :-) Azeem in London np: still "The Wheel" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:26:45 EDT From: AzeemAK@aol.com Subject: Re: Meeting up with the UK JMDL (Me, too content - NJC) In a message dated 9/18/98 2:55:36AM, kakkib@att.net writes: << I've always wished they weren't across that old pond so it would be easier to meet them >> Well, that's nice of you to say, Kakki. I can only add that if any Jmdlers from across that pond are in London, I hope they'll get in touch. I've also been to the US a few times, and to Vancouver too (and even to Vashon Island, where Carole is from), and hope to get back there soon, finance permitting. I'm about to start training as a psychotherapist, which is just about gonna clean out the bank - maybe I'll have to take up one of those ghastly pyramid selling schemes about which I regularly get spammed... Azeem in London ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:00:16 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Many, many things Marian wrote: "Tonight when my girls were getting sleepy, they came downstairs and curled up on the bed and asked me to sing songs for them. So I played them ROTR - introducing it as a song Joni wrote about travelling alone in America. The older one said - "She went alone? Without her Mommy?" I thought that was so sweet! Then I sang them Cherokee Louise, one of their favorites. And Number One, and Only Joy in Town - they laughed at the part about him "breathing in women like oxygen"! Finally, I started playing Hejira and they finally fell asleep. It was nice that they listened to me. It has been a really nice day." Dear Marian- This is the kinda stuff that chokes me into a big boo-hoo. My kids love music and although I haven't been asked to do a nighttime beside concert, the image I got from you was as big as the grand canyon. Nothing will ever compare to that look of wonder in a child's eyes as they are discovering the world. Thanx for the story. BTW, let's just NOT send birthday greetings to all those "mean" people on the list. YEAH! And we'll pretend that the things they say aren't important and kill them with silence. Also, I have got Amelia almost cold now. I was reading about you doing Refuge and I think I will tackle that one next. Are you bringing the kids to Colorado? I have been talking to Freda about going, but she has not saluted as yet. I'm going to buy her an extra copy of TTT (on the 29th) and see if I can't brain wash her during her 1 1/2 hours in the car. I was partying with my cousin last night who came into town with a friend. I turned them on to TTT and they are going to buy the album on the day it comes out. Be well. Love, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:24:12 -0400 From: Beverly Subject: Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies Chilihead2@aol.com wrote: > My sincerest apologies to anyone I have offended on this list. I reread all your recent posts and can find nothing that offended this lister. In fact, it was your "Post Card" post that prompted my private note to you about how much I enjoy reading your observations on life; dragonflies and all. I find a little "Joni Content" in almost every positive post. I can't tell you how much it warms my heart to read about any kind of love, especially when it is directed toward one's significant other. Warmly, Beverly Wolfe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:19:27 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies Julie Z. Webb wrote: > > At 03:14 PM 9/20/98 EDT, Chili wrote: > >I would have found the Haagen-Daz story slightly irrelevant. Now I appreciate > >tales like that. Nevertheless, writers are in love with their own writing and > >being a natural born one, I am guilty as charged. > Chili, > Don't change a thing. We love reading your posts! Im guessing that > someone might have **misinterpretted** you writing something politically > incorrect. > -Julie, NJC Afficionado (sp?) I want to add my 'me too' to this one. I haven't the vaguest idea what Chili might have said that would have offended anybody. Don't edit yourself, Brian. I'm ok, you're ok. 'I'm great, you're great, we're all great' to quote Dr. Eileen Dacey (aka Lily Tomlin), founder of Fundamental And Developmental psychology, also known as FAD. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:20:09 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: more on Joni/feminism (NJC now) In a message dated 9/20/98 2:46:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JRMCo1@aol.com writes: << In the Negro leagues there were black presidents and owners, there have zero black owners or presidents in major league baseball ever. >> I thought most of the owners were white. At least the owner of the best team, the Kansas City Monarchs, was white. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:20:48 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Yay Doug!!!! Doug- Thanx for the great report on Joni in Chicago. Wish we coulda all been there with ya! Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:24:33 EDT From: Charstarl@aol.com Subject: Re: Mailing list ? (NVC) In a message dated 9/20/98 12:22:18 AM Mountain Daylight Time, rfenn@swbell.net writes: << I'm an old Joni fan. How does one get to that list? Thanks, Rodney >> Rodney - glad to hear from you again! The way to the Joni Mitchell Discussion List is: http://www.jmdl.com/ I hope to hear from you there as well. Char* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:34:14 -0700 From: jussi Subject: scan of the CCoL single Hi all, The cover of the new Crazy Cries single can be seen at eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=31213600 No, it's not my auction.. - --jussi - -------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:49:53 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies Chili-I read this and then re read your other posts. Can't see at all what you have to apologise for. Your posts are enjoyable. Most people I am sure feel the same. there are only a handful who have no time for anything other than joni. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 98 21:53:51 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt "Because she has never heard my music and underwent the usual struggle just trying to pronounce my name, I was thrust, by default, into the role not of fellow songwriter, but of journalistic interviewer." - Ani DiFranco, LA Times, 9/20/98 Well I can't help but wonder how this interview would have turned out if Joni had thrown on a couple of Ani's CDs the night before the interview, and attempted a kind word or two about her music at the initial meeting before the interview began. My guess is that we would have seen an article captioned something like "Joni Mitchell: Artiste Extraodinaire." Just a couple of strokes from Joni, and Ani would have likely begun reminiscing about all of Joni's music, its impact on her own musical development and growth -- a veritable "old girl's club" spirit would have ensued and set the tone for an insightful interview of a music legend by a fellow musician, which would have been a very nice read. Over the past few years it's been nice to see and hear so many artists cite Joni as an influence and sing her praises. And I'm sure that this is what Feldman and Reprise had in mind when arranging the Ani interview, to be published two days prior to TTT's release. Her management and record label made just one fatal error. They should have said: "Joan, this woman who will be interviewing you is a fellow musician, we're sending you some of her CDs, please listen to them and find some nice things to say to her about her music when you meet her. If you don't like her style or can't find anything nice to say, we'll get someone else for the interview." Over the past several years, when questioned about her opinions of this or that contemporary musician/singer/songwriter, Joni has steadfastly stated that she does not listen to much new stuff, and that when she does listen to music, it tends to be older classics like Billie Holiday, Ray Charles, Miles Davis, Edith Piaf, etc. How are Joni's "praisers" supposed to feel about this? A little shunned and cast aside, I would think. People have feelings, and artists tend to feel things even more deeply. So when they learn that one of their musical mentors doesn't like their music -- or even worse, has never bothered to listen to it - -- they will be HURT (was it Alanis Morisette, Sheryl Crow, or both, who cried after reading some comments Joni made in an interview?) * * * So this is how I hide the hurt As the road leads cursed and charmed I tell Joni, it was just a false alarm * * * Does Ani's hurt justify taking what was supposed to be an interview/"appreciation piece" and turning it into her journalism debut? I think not. I think it was cheap and opportunistic. She met with Joni Mitchell, who was "amicable and generous with her time," for the purpose of conducting an interview, and instead turned out an essay on Feminism using Joni as some poor pawn. How outrageously presumptuous to think that the world is more interested in Ani DiFranco's political views on feminism than in an interview with Joni Mitchell. Guess it's not surprising, when you consider that she's the CEO of her own record company, "Righteous Babe" (perhaps that should be "self-righteous"). After reading this journalistic foray, I'm tempted to suggest that Ani "not quit her day job," except, like Ms. Mitchell, I've never heard her music, at least not knowingly. -Kenny ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:12:33 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Many, many things Man, if I had you guys as parents! Having them play me The Circle Game or Hejira or whatever as I go asleep! That would be the greatest! Such clever folks on this list! > BTW, let's just NOT send birthday greetings to all those "mean" >people on the list. YEAH! And we'll pretend that the things they say >aren't important and kill them with silence. Hey! Good idea! Or we could kill them with kindness until they are FORCED to be nice! ;-D Con amo, (I haven't had Spanish in 3 years if I goofed) Mark NPIMH: 'Then the child moved 10 times 'round the seasons' ______________________________________________ ____ | | O=|o\/o|=O Mark Domyancich O=|o\/o|=O O=|o\/o|=O Harpua@revealed.net | || | \||/ www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark |==| |__| home.revealed.net/Harpua |__| |__| ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:22:27 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: scan of the CCoL single Groovy cover! I will check a few record places tomorrow and see if this turns up *fingers crossed*. The bid is at $12.27 right now. >Hi all, > >The cover of the new Crazy Cries single can be seen at eBay: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=31213600 > >No, it's not my auction.. > > >--jussi >-------------- ______________________________________________ ____ | | O=|o\/o|=O Mark Domyancich O=|o\/o|=O O=|o\/o|=O Harpua@revealed.net | || | \||/ www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark |==| |__| home.revealed.net/Harpua |__| |__| ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:41:04 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies (NJC) Are we supposed to be offended by something? Clue me in so I can get all huffy, okay? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:32:16 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies (NJC) In a message dated 9/20/98 6:30:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, messling@enter.net writes: << Are we supposed to be offended by something? Clue me in so I can get all huffy, okay? >> Gee, I didn't know you needed an excuse. Oops, now you have one. ;>) Paul I in an oddly good mood today ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:52:32 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: The Magdalene Laundries (NJC) Today I stumbled on this web page devoted to the true story of the Irish convents/prisons described in Joni's song. I can't vouch for the author's credentials -- take a look and decide for yourselves. Harrowing stuff. http://www.cs.fit.edu/~steed/magdalen.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:47:47 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Many, many things In a message dated 9/20/98 6:14:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Harpua@revealed.net writes: << Man, if I had you guys as parents! Having them play me The Circle Game or Hejira or whatever as I go asleep! That would be the greatest! Such clever folks on this list! >> I asked my 13 yr old if she'd like to join me in seeing Joni here in Detroit. "MaaaaMM! I want to see Celine Dion!!" Where did I go wrong? Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:53:15 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt Kenny wrote: <<>> I, for one, enjoyed it more than I would have enjoyed yet another vague BS puff-piece on how Joni paved the way etc. etc. There have been interesting artist interviews of Joni (I'm thinking of Morrissey here), but they can be hit or miss and do require a modicum of respect for the interviewer by the interviewee. Ani pretty admirably stated upfront that she didn't feel qualified to delve into certain issues in the way Joni thought about them (i.e. Joni saying she does interviews to let people know she has a new "product" out there) and was kind of bewildered what to do. What she did do was IMO rather interesting. In the whole media hype about women in rock this is the first time I remember anyone making explicit connections with greater cultural feminism, etc., or trying to grapple with feminism's complex relationship with the female icons of rock. That she did so without resorting to academic babble is even more interesting. <<>> She's CEO of her own record company so she can avoid the devious machinations of, say, a David Geffen. This angle actually could have been a fantastic approach to the interview given Joni's grumblings about the biz on the new release, not to mention her own history with the devious machinations of, say, a David Geffen, but to be truly interesting it would have required an hour or so of preparation on Joni's part as well. Of course, two women grumbling about the record business certainly wouldn't have fit Reprise's agenda, but whatever. Perhaps this experiment will only further exasperate Joni WRT the media and the biz, and she will convince herself to retreat further. Perhaps instead she'll see that with a modicum of preparation and respect, she could seize control of the interview environment to her best advantage. In any case, she's not likely to encounter a more sympathetic interviewer than Ani DiFranco; it's unfortunate for her that circumstances unfolded as they did. I still contend it was a great read. I highly recommend picking up one of Ani's records (_Not a Pretty Girl_ is my fave) to shed some light on who this uppity Ani character is and to clarify the article. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:02:33 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt In a message dated 9/20/98 8:00:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mwyarbro@zzapp.org writes: << Kenny wrote: <<>> I, for one, enjoyed it more than I would have enjoyed yet another vague BS puff-piece on how Joni paved the way etc. etc. There have been interesting artist interviews of Joni (I'm thinking of Morrissey here), but they can be hit or miss and do require a modicum of respect for the interviewer by the interviewee. Ani pretty admirably stated upfront that she didn't feel qualified to delve into certain issues in the way Joni thought about them (i.e. Joni saying she does interviews to let people know she has a new "product" out there) and was kind of bewildered what to do. >> I think Kenny's point is that if Ani wanted to write her treatise on feminism, she didn't need to use an interview with Joni as a ruse to do so. She merely USED the so-called interview with Joni as an attempt to legitimize her views and gain a wider readership for it than she might otherwise have gotten. And that stinks. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:08:53 -0700 From: Rich Newirth Subject: TTT I know I should keep my big mouth shut. But, I've been listening to TTT repeatedly since I got an advance copy Friday. I won't say anything about any particular tracks. All I will say is WOW and that already I think it is my favorite album since Hejira. That's no small potatoes. It has a certain mood, maturity, and warmth of heart that is indescribable. Looking forward to sharing more with you after the official release. My best to you, Rich ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:54:59 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: RE: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt Speaking of preparation, I wonder if Ani listened to TTT before the interview? She spoke of Joni as a feminist role model in terms of how she has managed her career, but she never spoke about the feminist content of specific songs -- and there are a number of examples on TTT! It might have been an even more interesting article if Ani had explored songs like "Don't Interrupt the Sorrow" or "Not to Blame" or "No Apologies" -- and then confronted Joni with how those songs express mainstream feminist thought. > She's CEO of her own record company so she can avoid the devious > machinations of, say, a David Geffen. This angle actually could have > been a fantastic approach to the interview given Joni's grumblings > about the biz on the new release ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:25:21 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: Ani on Feminism I think Ani shoots herself in the foot with this one. Despite her apologies to Joni and her recognition of the "irony" of the non-interview, ultimately Ani reveals one of the reasons (I suspect) that Joni chooses not to *label* herself a feminist. How many more misguided articles would Joni suffer if she started pigeonholing herself as a crusader for women? Isn't it enough that she's a crusadser for humanity? ;-) I doubt that the Times editor would have accepted this article from a journalist (unless this ambush was planned from the beginning). If Ani wanted to write an article on Joni Mitchell and feminism, she should have pitched it to the editors and asked Joni if she cared to participate. I closing, may I say that IMHO it's ridiculous of Ani to present such an incomplete definition of the word feminism. Her (Webster's) definition: "1(a) the theory that women should have political, economic, and social rights equal to those of men." The part she left out: "(b) the movement to win such rights for women." So people's understanding of the word "feminism" will vary based on their understanding of the rhetoric used to define the movement. If the wordsmiths within the women's movement are unable to accept some of the responsibility for the public's (and Joni's) perception of the word "feminism," then I doubt they will be empowered enough to change that perception. Maybe it's time to find some new words. David (by Ani's definition a staunch feminist) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:03:26 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt At 09:53 PM 9/20/98 GMT, Kenny G wrote: >Does Ani's hurt justify taking what was supposed to be an >interview/"appreciation piece" and turning it into her journalism debut? I >think not. I think it was cheap and opportunistic. She met with Joni Mitchell, >who was "amicable and generous with her time," for the purpose of conducting an >interview, and instead turned out an essay on Feminism using Joni as some poor >pawn. Kenny, Until other jmdlers are able to convince me otherwise, I have to agree with you Kenny. We've heard "feminism", broached in so many interviews with Joni----that making this, once again, the running theme in the Ani interview---feels to me, sexist, in itself. Forget about the whole political bent, I found the interview preachy and boring, and that's a shame, because I consider Ani DiFranco to be pretty interesting. I guess having two ego-maniacal arteeeests involved in the interview process is not an example of journalism at it's best. (Just kidding...) Regarding your comment about Ani: ><<of her own record company, "Righteous Babe" (perhaps that should >be "self-righteous").>>> Actually I so admire Ani for achieving this. What Im not crazy about is what I see as a lack of respect-----when fresh-faced "theorists" lay their judgemental, zealous political rap on a mature woman (mentors) like JM and (Hillary Clinton), who have lived full lives, and know the meaning of suffering and living whichever way they choose. I realize what Im saying is going to inpires flames, but when I read stuff like this, what I want to say to these idealists (and I am one,) is, "go out and live life for another ten years, and then we'll be ready to really talk." There is a scene, which relates to what Im trying to say in the new Anna Quindlen movie, "One True Thing," which stars Meryl Streep as a "martha stewart mom from hell." She is everything that her daughter dismisses. Ellen, (Renee Zellwenger,) a Harvard graduate who works as an ambitious reporter for "New York" magazine, sees her mother's warm, welcoming house which showcases her talents in stenciling, wallpapering, upholstery, gardening and kitchen wizardry as a boring waste of time. She rolls her eyes at her mother's giddy women's group, who decorate Christmas trees in the town square and organize the annual Haunted Halloween House fundraiser. She is clearly her father's daughter. Her dad, George, (William Hurt,) is Chairperson of the Literature Deptartment and a former winner of a book Natl Book Award. He loves his wife and yet has been cheating on her for years. She choses not to make an issue out of it, and seems to love him in spite of this, and empowers herself in many other ways. Meryl Streep develops cancer and William Hurt insists that the daughter take a leave of absence and to move home to take care of the mother, because he just can't afford a sabatical in this time in his life.... This is a movie about a daughter's slow process of unwrapping the political idealogies our generation has come to embrace and live by, and discovering that incredible courage, beauty & strength (empowerment,) respect & dignity **can** also exist in traditional and dysfunctional ways of living life----ways in which we have learned to dismiss and no longer respect. In a nutshell, what should have been a "expressive verbal painting" between two creative people," became, instead, a dry exchange in rhetoric. -JulieZW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:29:27 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt Julie Z. Webb wrote: > In a nutshell, what should have been a "expressive verbal painting" > between two creative people," became, instead, a dry exchange in rhetoric. > -JulieZW I have to say that although I thought Ani's comments were interesting, intelligent & well-expressed, I don't think she fulfilled her journalistic 'assignment'. Instead of an interview or appreciation piece she wrote an editorial piece. A piece that advanced her own agenda more than anything. I may or may not agree with some of the points she made but I do think they were inappropriate within the context that she was supposed to be writing in. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:31:55 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: (JC) My [very long] last $.02 on the Ani article OK, I know y'all are sick of hearing from me already about this; I just have a few more things to add. I find it very interesting that I seem to have gotten a very different tone out of the article than most of the other people who have posted. From what I can tell, many of you perceived the article as an attack on Joni by Ani, and are thus understandably angry, and perhaps even hurt. Out of the several times I've read it, both before any commentary was posted and my most recent reading a few seconds ago, I didn't get that sense at all. It actually seemed more of an homage and exploration to me. Even when I *try* to read it as a bitter excoriation I'm not successful. I'm really curious as to why my reaction seems to be so different. I think the contradiction between Joni's ultra-feminist life and her words on the subject is purely fascinating. It's certainly fueled many a thread here on the JMDL. In these times of increased female presence in the rock limelight, it's also relevant. An exploration of the apparent contradiction could be very revealing about Joni the person. I don't think Ani really resolved the contradiction, but I think she tried, and her analysis seemed to place more blame on the "system" than on Joni. And I find it far more intellectually stimulating than the usual "you mean you paint, too?" BS interviews we hear (even from Chris Douridas!!). Ani did take the analysis a bit further than it's ever gone before when she spoke of the high respect accorded words by songwriters--why would Joni Mitchell, of all people, allow *any* word to be redefined for her? It is interesting to contemplate, IMO, though I will agree that a short newspaper essay is not the best forum to resolve such issues. Perhaps I sympathize more with Ani's POV because, as a younger and politically involved person, I am constantly grappling with the complex legacy of the "hippie" generation (a term I do not use with any condescension). So much was accomplished, but the movements were also plagued with so many faults, so much naivete as well. I, like Ani I think, feel burdened with the responsibility of keeping the flame alive of those social movements, but in an environment of increased cynicism, awareness of institutional structures, and perhaps most vexingly, a knowledge that much of the sixties legacy was modern, ephemeral mythology. I think that this is the knot that lies behind Ani's critique of Joni--here is a woman she admires as an artist and as an icon, a person who true to the hype, paved the way for many performers, professional and amateur, male and female. A woman who has been very vocal about several major issues Ani herself has fought--the tyranny of the record business, the commercialization of music, etc. And then Ani speaks to this woman she admires for so many reasons, and hears her refer to her music as "product" and disavow "feminism." I hesitate to psychoanalyze anyone I don't know, but I think it's far more likely that the article we got gestated in a burst-bubble environment than in one of bitterness at Joni's ignorance of Ani's work. I think the realization that, yet again, idols prove to imperfect led to a piece that to me reads more sad than bitter. I think this phenomenon is a defining one of my "generation," if a generation can be defined. When hippies were active in the '60s, it still seemed possible for the masses to matter. Pervasive personal investment could topple the mightiest foe. And some successes were achieved--the women's movement and the environmental movement had particularly lasting effects. But as inspiring as the words of Dr. King are to me, race relations seem to have backslid in the last 30 years. The withdrawal from Vietnam had as much to do with the nervousness of the American corporate world as with college activists. And class, the defining fault line of American life IMO, was not addressed in any meaningful way, nor has it been 30 years later. So here we are, knowing that even when people believed they had the power (thanks Patti), their power was very limited. That even the strongest of social movements inflicted mere flesh wounds upon institutional Goliaths. Where the hell are we supposed to go? Especially in a world where power is *more* centralized, economic disparity is *greater* and the political influence of bigwigs is *increasing*? When Kurt Cobain tried to resolve his DIY ideals with the only avenue he had for mass communication--corporate rock--he could find no answers outside heroin and suicide. Ani searches for a solution in her own record company, an uphill struggle that still requires corporate distribution deals and, yes, mainstream press interviews. Is it any wonder that many in my generation give up? Michael Stipe paraphrased _Slackers_ director Richard Linklater in saying, "Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy." I think that about sums it up. Whew, I've gone far afield! :-) I'm not writing this to chastise or denigrate the anger or hurt any of you may feel at seeing a woman you admire attacked yet again. I write to hopefully help recontextualize Ani's words in a perspective more appropriate to Ani's experience as a young activist. I did notice that Rachel's critique centered on the issues raised by Ani rather than the exploitation of Joni for Ani's own agenda. Even though Rachel and I disagree about Ani's analysis, we both centered on the issues. And we both are 22 and working for social change. I have a feeling these similarities are not coincidental. I hope our perspective might help other JMDLers look past cynical theories of Ani's ulterior motives to the words on the page. My last miscellaneous comment is to note that Ani never goes for more than 20 lines or so w/o mentioning Joni's name. It seems clear to me from this that she didn't intend to launch *from* Joni to a broader agenda, but to *contextualize* Joni within some broader issues. Sorry this is so long. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:35:35 -0700 From: "Larry Block" Subject: Grace Of My Heart Hi, It was suggest by a list member that I post this on the Discussion List. When the Grace Of My Heart CD soundtrack error with Joni on it came out I (in my usual collecting frenzy) picked up a 3 discs. I want to keep one (of course) but would now like to sell the other two. Though I love Joni (since 1969 at a CSN concert at the Greek in L.A.), esp For the Roses, I am not a die hard fan. I reserve that for the Alan Parsons Project (we all have our vices). I know I do not appreciate most commercial offerings on that list so I feel weird about posting this. But then again, I am not a commericial interest, just an overzealous fan and CD collector. Thanks for taking the time to read this. If interested please email me at lbblock@my-dejanews.com. Larry - -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:38:04 -0700 From: "Larry Block" Subject: Grace Of My Heart Hi, It was suggested by a list member that I post this on the Discussion List. When the Grace Of My Heart CD soundtrack error with Joni on it came out I (in my usual collecting frenzy) picked up a 3 discs. I want to keep one (of course) but would now like to sell the other two. Though I love Joni (since 1969 at a CSN concert at the Greek in L.A.), esp For the Roses, I am not a die hard fan. I reserve that for the Alan Parsons Project (we all have our vices). I know I do not appreciate most commercial offerings on that list so I feel weird about posting this. But then again, I am not a commericial interest, just an overzealous fan and CD collector. Thanks for taking the time to read this. If interested please email me at lbblock@my-dejanews.com. Larry - -----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:38:34 -0400 From: heather Subject: Re: VL(Very Little)JC: All Apologies At 03:14 PM 9/20/98 EDT, you wrote: >Hi, > >My sincerest apologies to anyone I have offended on this list. If you don't >want to receive my posts just let me know. I am not always politically >correct. Nor do I want to be. I am a freethinking and freewriting person. I >am also a lover of women and they have always been my greatest teachers. > BRIAN! What ever are you talking about!? I enjoy reading your posts! They didn't misplace one of the screws from your back to your noggin' did they ;-D Keep on writin' on .... Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:02:54 EDT From: Johnwe2@aol.com Subject: Re: Ani Difranco interview I personally have a problem with this whole article. Wasn't this supposed to be and interview. If the article posted was complete, I am definitely confused and a little irratated. I assume Joni accepted to do this in good faith. She was obviously promoting TTT and wanted to discuss her music. However, Ms Difranco decided to use it to discuss mainly why Ani Difranco is a feminist and why Joni Mitchell is? isn't? should be? If Ani wants to write an essay about feminism, fine. If she wants to imply that Joni Mitchell doesn't understand feminism or feminists, not fine. Joni was an adult during the women's liberation movement during the sixties. Some feminists then were very radical and probably had to be. I think she is informed enough to say, "No, I am not a feminist" PS I think Ani Difranco was little pissed that JM didn't really know who she was or was familiar with her music I'll get off my soap bpx now :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:22:39 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: So This Is How Ani Hides The Hurt In a message dated 9/20/98 3:03:36 PM, kg@ibm.net wrote: >Does Ani's hurt justify taking what was supposed to be an >interview/"appreciation piece" and turning it into her journalism debut? I >think not. I think it was cheap and opportunistic. She met with Joni Mitchell, > >who was "amicable and generous with her time," for the purpose of conducting an > >interview, and instead turned out an essay on Feminism using Joni as some poor > >pawn. > >How outrageously presumptuous to think that the world is more interested in Ani > >DiFranco's political views on feminism than in an interview with Joni Mitchell. > >Guess it's not surprising, when you consider that she's the CEO of her own >record company, "Righteous Babe" (perhaps that should be "self-righteous"). This is exactly how I felt when I read the "interview" (I use that EXTREMELY loosely). Let's put one thing out on the table: I do not like Ani DiFranco. I do not like her music. I do not like her attitude towards her fans who have made her famous or towards life in general. Kenny-you are def. right about Ani being self-righteous. She is so self-righteous it's hardly amusing. This article is accompanied by a full page picture of Joni dressed in a blue long dress holding her guitar close. But that's the most Joni we get. This isn't an interview. It's Ani using the space alloted to her to expound on all her views, briefly mentioning Joni's comments, but only to the extent to prove herself right. It's all about Ani. And, frankly Ani, I don't give a flying f*ck what you think. - -mariana NP: Kate Bush,-The Kick Inside- (i think it's just abs. wonderful that I can switch so quickly from Fugazi to Joni back to Fugazi to Elliott Smith to Kate and enjoy it all) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:23:42 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Many, many things In a message dated 9/20/98 3:50:26 PM, TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: >I asked my 13 yr old if she'd like to join me in seeing Joni here in Detroit. >"MaaaaMM! I want to see Celine Dion!!" > >Where did I go wrong? Oh mine was completely backwards. I asked mom if she wanted to come to the Joni Mitchell concert and she said, "Yes!" - -mariana NP: Kate Bush, -The Kick Inside- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:29:10 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: (JC) My [very long] last $.02 on the Ani article Michael Yarbrough wrote: From > what I can tell, many of you perceived the article as an attack on Joni > by Ani, and are thus understandably angry, and perhaps even hurt. Well speaking strictly for myself, I don't believe I said or implied that I thought Ani was attacking Joni or that I was angered by her piece. I love Joni's music but I don't see her as some 'stone commission' who is perfect & above reproach. It seems > clear to me from this that she didn't intend to launch *from* Joni > to a broader agenda, but to *contextualize* Joni within some > broader issues. > And I still disagree. I think she used Joni to mount a sermon. Whether I agree or disagree with her is beside the point. Ani herself wound up the interview saying something like 'Sorry Joni. One more goddamn interviewer with an agenda'. It wasn't what she was supposed be writing about. IMO it was inappropriate. > Sorry this is so long. > Oh that's ok, Michael. We're used to it by now;-) Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:32:27 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Ani Difranco interview Johnwe2@aol.com wrote: > PS I think Ani Difranco was little pissed that JM didn't really know > who she was or was familiar with her music I'll get off my soap bpx now :) I had a funny feeling about this myself. Mark in Seattle (yet again) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:34:59 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Fugazi(NJC) i don't know how many of you out there in joniland enjoy the so-called "headbanging" music, but i just have to share this great new band i found out about. as the title of this post suggests, they're called Fugazi and they're English and are mostly on indie records. i bought "Red Medicine", a '95 release on Dischord records and am enjoying it immensely. the lyrics read like a disjointed sylvia plath poem and they have the coolest guitar riffs ever. they're more raw than Nirvana and the Foo Fighters and a little less tailored than the X-Ray Spex or the Breeders. actually they sort of sound like Hole on the first album "pretty on the inside". i def. reccomend it to anyone who enjoys some nice hard loud raw rock every once in a while. I heard about Fugazi through a friend and when i was at the music store yesterday, decided to check it out. I was borderline about it, so I went to the joni section just to pay homage and check it out...and there! wedged behind court and spark, in between blue and HOSL, to the left of Turbulent Indigo was a FUGAZI cd!!!! that settled it. i shelled out ten bucks, took it home, and wasn't sorry. yours in headbangedness- mariana NP: kate bush, -the kick inside- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 00:42:35 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Fugazi(NJC) Mariana wrote: <<>> Just for the record, Fugazi are not English. They are, along with Bad Brains, the premier band of D.C.'s hardcore scene (which is pretty much a thing of the past). They are also famously straight-edge--no drugs. And all of their records should be independent. They are very political and anti-corporate. Do they even exist anymore? I'm not sure about that... - --Michael ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #365 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?