From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #364 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, September 20 1998 Volume 03 : Number 364 JoniFest 1999 is coming! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The Official Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, original interviews and essays, lyrics, and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains interviews, articles, the member gallery, archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni/Donovan--info on Omega and Kripalu [Chilihead2@aol.com] Coming to the Halloween Party as Joni Characters--Who will you be? [Chili] RE: Joni at Old Town- read all about it. (JC) [trxschwa ] Joni article by Ani, full text (long) ["Deb Messling" ] RE: JM in Chicago ["Philipf" ] Ani article critique (LONG) [madmission girl ] Re: Singing Joni's songs [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Joni article by Ani, full text (long) [Marsha ] more on Joni/feminism [madmission girl ] Re: Ani article critique (LONG) [Marsha ] Re: more on Joni/feminism (NJC now) [Marsha ] Re: Joni in Denver Post [WombQueen@aol.com] Re: Coming to the Halloween Party as Joni Characters--Who will you be? (NJC) [WombQueen@ao] RE: (NJC) Joni article by Ani, full text (long) [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Coming to the Halloween Party as Joni Characters--Who will you be? (NJC) [Chilihead2@ao] Re: more on Joni/feminism (NJC now) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] [Fwd: Ani article critique (LONG)] [Mark or Travis Subject: RE: Joni at Old Town- read all about it. (JC) hey dougie, thank you so much for your beautiful, so so detailed report on joni i chi-town. when i say, 'the next best thing to being there' i'm not kidding. rock on buddy. patrick, who hadn't quite articulated in his mind exactly why harry's house needs 'centerpiece' to be perfect. np - blessed silence next subject - who the hell is going to play drums on nov 1? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:14:30 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Ani Difranco piece in LA Times The Ani DiFranco article in today's LA Times takes Joni to task for rejecting feminism. The criticism is entirely justified IMO. I just bet it's not what Joni's people had in mind when they set this up! Hope folks don't mind if I forward this to the list for the weekend Web-deprived. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:15:30 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Joni article by Ani, full text (long) INSIDE STORY, Court and Spark Folk Troubadour Ani DiFranco Chats With the Iconic Joni Mitchell About Her Legacy, Her Life--and the Current State of Feminism. [I]nterview - 1. A meeting of people face to face to confer about something 2. A meeting between a reporter and a person whose activities, views, etc. are to be the subject of a published article. 3. A journalistic article giving such information When I was asked to write an "appreciation piece" about Joni Mitchell and chat with her to flesh it out, I thought, "Sure! Why not? I appreciate Joni Mitchell. That sounds cool." I pictured our interview to be the sort where two people's faces are meeting and conferring about stuff (thank you Webster's Unabridged) but soon realized that another, more conventional model was to govern our conversation. Because she has never heard my music and underwent the usual struggle just trying to pronounce my name, I was thrust, by default, into the role not of fellow songwriter, but of journalistic interviewer. Considering that I generally dread doing interviews myself, it's a strange and dubious sensation to be a stop on some other poor artist's press junket. She too, has known the horror of being misquoted, condescended to, taken out of context, framed the wrong way and hung crookedly on a wall not of her choosing by an ill-suited, or simply unprepared, media, for many more years than I have. Joni even described her relationship with the media at the time of her last album as a "big fight." "They treated me like a hostile witness," she told me, "and I kept saying, 'I didn't kill anybody!' " Luckily, the media have been more supportive with her new record, and she's been doing a little less fighting. "Why do you do it?" I asked her. "Why do you even bother trying to talk to people?" In my head I heard my own answers to those questions: If you have a political or artistic purpose, a vision, then part of the down-and-dirty work of realizing it is to attempt communication not just with your own audience, or the people who choose you, but with everyone. I fear the laziness or false security of just preaching to the converted and periodically accept the position of trying to explain myself to the society at large. It's usually such a futile and exhausting proposition, though, that I wonder what any artist is thinking when they do it. "Well, you have to let people know you have a new product out there," Joni told me. "Oh," I said, "right." This is a much more practical and understandable industry model for "doing" press. Plus, she reminded me, when you're working with a record company, you have to get behind your record and help promote it, in hopes that the company will reciprocate by using everything in its power to do the same. Good idea, I suppose, given the music industry's awkward partnership of businesspeople and artists, but it's not really an area I feel capable of, or qualified to, write within. What follows is not an interview with Joni Mitchell or an article about her new album, or even an appreciation piece. The album is called "Taming the Tiger," and if you're interested in songwriters, or if you appreciate Joni's great importance to American popular music, you'll go get it to hear what she's up to these days. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this. I'm sure you don't need me to blather on about the state of contemporary feminism either, but that's unfortunately what I feel compelled to write about. * * * Feminism: 1. (a) The theory that women should have political, economic and social rights equal to those of men. * * * What intrigues me most about joni mitchell is that she is such a notable feminist in terms of her own life, yet she refuses to publicly support feminism and would dispute my, or anyone else's, use of the word in reference to her. She has, in fact, nothing but disparaging words for "the feminists," describing "them" as a militant political faction that only "made things worse." OK. Let's rewind a little. Joni has insisted on retaining the publishing rights to all of her songs since the beginning of her recording career. This may not sound special, but it is an astounding accomplishment, especially for the time, and has meant a huge difference in the income she enjoys in her career maturity. Now, when Janet Jackson samples "Big Yellow Taxi," the money goes to Joni, thank goodness. If only Bo Diddley had been as savvy about his fair share. Another thing Joni has retained is complete control over the artistry of her albums. She has used her own paintings or designs for each cover (with the exception of the "Blue" album) and has produced most of the music herself. As someone who also wears many hats, I was curious: "Is it difficult for you to be music maker and producer simultaneously?" "It takes two different heads," she said knowingly. "To play, you want to be emotional and sensual; you don't want to be intellectualizing. But to go in and adjudicate, you have to swing up and use intellect and clarity . . . then swing back into sensual mode. Because I'm a painter, I'm used to standing back and saying yes and no. I approach it like I do painting. Painters don't need producers." Can I get an amen? Of course, try convincing a record company that the artist wants to be in charge. The chick singer no less. It takes a self-confident, independent and strong-willed person to do that. Joni has insisted her whole life that nobody stand between her and her unique musical vision, and in retrospect, she says she likes her albums. Like anyone else, she feels she has made some mistakes along the way, but insists "they were my mistakes," and therefore is not bitter about the things she would do differently now. Conversely, when she listens back to something she made and thinks, "Oh, I'll never do that again," therein lies the inspiration to make the next album. Hallelujah. It is well known that Joni is a woman who does not tolerate being told what to do. She resents being called the best female anything, recognizing that a sexist double standard exists in such a label. She even indulges in a blatantly feminist analysis of her disrespectful treatment by the media. "It's partially because I'm a woman," she told me, "and an uppity woman." She said in order to be taken seriously, "I knew I always had to be twice as good." Yet when I suggest to her that perhaps feminism is not just political slogans and short haircuts, that it can be something different for each person, she waxes poetic about the nobility of women staying in the home. She even cites the breakdown of the family and says children are not "playing in the backyards anymore" because their "mothers are not at home," implicating feminism, and no other social or economic circumstances, as the cause of the problem. This seems ironic coming from a woman who, at a young age, made the difficult decision of adoption for her child, when confronted with the choice between motherhood and career. Speaking of a former boyfriend, she recently said, "He wanted a stay-at-home wife to raise his children. And I said that I could--a rash promise I made in my youth--and then realized I couldn't." Now let me just stop here and say that I absolutely agree with her about the nobility of the role of homemaker, mother and nurturer. Still, I support her, or any other woman's, right to choose a life outside of these spheres. Furthermore, I would like to emphasize that such a choice has not historically come easy. It's only through the hard work of many a dedicated feminist that women have these choices at all. As a woman, an artist and a person who governs her own destiny, I came of age in a much different world than where Joni grew up, the Alberta, Canada, of the '40s and '50s. I have enjoyed a life filled with more respect and opportunity than my mother's, and I fear the trend toward marginalizing the historical work of feminism. Look at women's lives before the suffragettes got us the right to vote in 1920, and you will see that feminists made things better, not worse. Look at women's lives before the second-wave feminist movement of the 1970s, and you will not see the female politicians, athletes, college students, professionals, musicians, etc., that you do now. This is the living legacy of feminism. It is democracy at work and it is nothing short of inspirational, not unlike Joni Mitchell's life, which has inspired countless young women to artistic honesty and personal and professional strength. "I prefer the company of men," Joni told me in response to my suggestion of feminism, and went on to describe the pleasure of being the only female presence among men. I see no problem with her preferences and no inherent contradiction between the two ideas. One of the great lies of conservatism is that feminism and femininity are somehow in opposition to each other. Feminism is simply the belief that a woman has the right to become herself, just as a man has the right to become himself. All decent people, male and female, are feminists. The only people who are not feminists are those who believe that women are inherently inferior or undeserving of the respect and opportunity afforded men. Either you are a feminist or you are a sexist/misogynist. There is no box marked "other." So what's the big deal, you ask? Why can't women just lead their lives to the fullest, stick up for their own rights as people, without having to identity themselves as feminists? Why don't I just drop it? It's only a word, right? Right. And words are some of the most powerful and important things I know. I have spent my life as a songwriter, exercising language. Language is the tool of love and the weapon of hatred. It's the bright red warning flag of danger--and the stone foundation of diplomacy and peace. The manipulation, decoration and revelation of language are what songwriting is all about. So how can we, with good conscience, ignore the definition of the word feminism and let it be replaced by a Rush Limbaugh-style connotation? There is, quite simply, no other word in the English language that recognizes the idea that women are just as good, despite any behavior or prejudices to the contrary. How can we, as wordsmiths (or citizens), perpetuate the taboo of the word feminism, and therefore the idea? Any liberated person who does not acknowledge the actual definition of the word "feminist" and refuses to identify as such is effectively helping the right wing to wipe the very idea from our language. Joni has been personally disturbed by her own second-class citizenship for many years, as well she should be. It is interesting to study her public treatment, especially in the context of, say, her buddy Bob Dylan. For 30 years, Bob has been surrounded by a wealth of media hyperbole ("voice of a generation," etc.) that was never lavished on Joni. Only now is she beginning to receive some of the public strokes befitting her contribution to popular music. After all this time, though, some of the praising "rings hollow," she confided. Why has Bob been so thoroughly canonized and Joni so condescended to over the years? Maybe, in part, because when Joni was uppity, she was considered a bitch, and the media retaliated. From day one, however, Bob could be as uppity as he wanted, and the great mammoth rock press lauded his behavior as rebellious, clever, renegade and punkishly cool. Maybe it's also because Bob's songs are inherently more masculine (go figure) and have therefore been viewed as more universal, while Joni's writing, which has a more feminine perspective, is put in a box labeled "girl stuff." Over the years, Joni has been compared to every other chick singer in the book (a fact that infuriates her), although she insists that her artistic peers are Bob and very few others. She believes that she has never truly been given the respect that she deserves by the writers of American rock 'n' roll history, and for the record, I agree entirely. Joni Mitchell's songs were some of the first that I was ever really inspired by. They are well-crafted, profound and adventurous. She is not one of the great female songwriters of this century, she is one of the great songwriters of this century. Period. She was amicable and generous with her time when we spoke, and I would like to say finally to her: Sorry Joni. One more goddamn interviewer with a goddamn agenda. Ah . . . the irony of it all. - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:13:25 +0100 From: "Philipf" Subject: Re: Singing Joni's songs Yes Refuge fo the Roads is an amazing song. There's not a single word wasted in it. The line about the "marble bowling ball" is just so typical and I always think when she sings about the "baggage overload", she means more than just luggage. I've been listening a lot to it lately thanks to a tape from Les and was thinking of learning it, what tuning is it in ? Philip ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:13:11 +0100 From: "Philipf" Subject: RE: JM in Chicago someone wrote: > Also, JM is coming in on a private jet that she demanded >--I guess she has to smoke continuously now. And she is >being paid $deleted for the deal. I was a little disappointed to see Joni's terms of contract put up on the internet like this. To me that kind of info is none of our business. But it does give a clue to why she tries to put some distance between herself and the public and the internet. >JM herself, has restricted the number of people in the >meet and greet to 30 people so the largest > rollers will be there only. Yes, the meet and greet. I wonder did some local "high roller" corner her and explain how on his first date he was in the back on his dad's car and Blue was playing on the 8 track. And was she laughing it all away. Philip - - who might have had too much wine at lunch ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:05:11 -0400 (EDT) From: madmission girl Subject: Ani article critique (LONG) First of all...a big thank you to Deb for posting the article. Second, today I'm going to get myself to a printer and print it out and put it right next to my computer. THIS is what I want to write a book about - women in the '90s/feminism in the '90s, and how in many ways I disagree with Ani, not just in relation to Joni but in general. While in many ways I agree and sympathize with Ani, and I don't think it's just semantics, I think it's unfair in part and futile in part to criticize Joni for this stance. Juliana Hatfield has had some similar things to say...I don't have the exact quote, but she was criticized in a review for not writing more songs about specically "women's issues" and she said basically "look, I'm out here doing it every day, writing, singing, performing, I'm a strong woman performer and now I'm being criticized for not writing in a certain style"?? I think that while Ani is correct that conservatives try to split feminism and femininity, I think there are LOTS of ways that some strains of "feminism" do precisely the same thing when they try to only laud certain kinds of women. I have learned so much from various people I've met over the Internet, including an appreciation for people I hadn't thought of in that light before, like Pamela Anderson. For instance, some young mothers were very drawn to Pamela because she had her kids at home and she is very proud of her role as a mother. Jane Magazine (ahem) put her on their cover, sans makeup, with a pretty candid interview about her relationship with Tommy Lee. What does this have to do with Joni? Not much, but...I think that the Ani way of thinking is detrimental to the vision of feminism. There's a very good book called _Feminism Fatale_ by Paula Kamen and it's about how various younger women (teens, 20s, 30s) see the word "feminism" and why many of them choose to reject the word. I think this is lamentable BUT we can move on FROM there, and recognize the wealth of talents and spirits and outlooks that women have in common, not what we don't have in common. I feel like I could write my whole book countering Ani's article, because I really do think it's unfair in so many ways. For me, "feminism" (now, I do consider myself a feminist but I don't believe in a feminism where everyone must think the same about every issue) should and must be about making a world where women can make our own decisions. I have a Liz Phair quote from an interview saved which I'll try to find, but she basically talks about women having the opportunities to make their own choices. I firmly believe that that's what any "women's movement" and also on more individual levels HAS to be about, rather than about making everyone "join the club." Because as far as I can see, what Ani's article has done in terms of someone like Joni (if, say, I were in Joni's shoes) is make her defensive, make her feel "damned if I do, damned if I don't" and I don't believe this is good for anyone. Deb (or someone else) - can you give me the email address for letters to the editor to the LA Times Magazine? thanks... And sorry this is so long everyone, but as a 22-year-old women's studies major who does consider herself a feminist, I feel more strongly about this than probably anything else right now. If anyone's interested in more of my ideas about this, you can write me privately (rkb200@is5.nyu.edu). Actually, I feel inspired...I have had so many ideas percolating in my head and these very vague ideas for a book (with the theme being that there are so many roles for women today that we don't have to split women against each other as in: mother vs. non-mother, working woman vs. non-working woman, straight vs. gay, Hillary vs. Monica (which basically I've seen in several pieces lately). These are FALSE distinctions IMO, not because women aren't different, but that it's FINE to be different, that we truly need to embrace these differences rather than antagonize one another. thanks for letting me rant, Rachel "by this i am able in all of my travels to make these memories quit but tonite i clearly recall every little bit" -- patty griffin "you might think i hate you" -- carla bozulich - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my Mary Lou Lord page is at http://pages.nyu.edu/~rkb200/ To join the Mary Lou Lord mailing list, email Majordomo@smoe.org with ONLY "subscribe jinglejangle" OR "subscribe jinglejangle-digest" in the BODY. For info on my zine I'M NOT WAITING go to http://pages.nyu.edu/~rkb200/zine.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:09:32 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Singing Joni's songs Hey Philip and all- Refuge is CACFAC. It's sort of like open F (FACFAC). You might want to try them both. IMO, the Refuge from the Reprise Music Show is the greatest! NP-Chelsea Morning (And the sun poured in like butterscotch...) At 3:13 PM +0100 9/20/98, Philipf wrote: >I've been listening a lot to it lately thanks to a tape from Les >and was thinking of learning it, what tuning is it in ? ______________________________________________ ____ | | O=|o\/o|=O Mark Domyancich O=|o\/o|=O O=|o\/o|=O Harpua@revealed.net | || | \||/ www.jmdl.com/guitar/mark |==| |__| home.revealed.net/Harpua |__| |__| ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:19:25 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Re: Joni article by Ani, full text (long) Deb Messling wrote: > Only now is she beginning to receive some of > the public strokes befitting her contribution to > popular music. After all this time, though, some of > the praising "rings hollow," she confided. Why has > Bob been so thoroughly canonized and Joni so > condescended to over the years? Maybe, in part, > because when Joni was uppity, she was considered a > bitch, and the media retaliated. Thanks, Deb for sending this article. I respect DiFranco's decision (with no apology needed, IMO) to focus on how feminism/Joni Mitchell are so closely linked and how Joni's lack of associating herself with other women in these terms in this male-dominated culture is yet another kind of blow to the stuggles to achieve equality. I've always thought Joni's aversion to being called a feminist and her quick dismissal of the company of women was more a character flaw of sorts (dare I say narcissism?) and related somehow to her only child status (please don't kill me, sibling- deprived members!), and other familial struggles ("Momma let go now"). As she has never identified her obstacles as having a great commonality with her gender peers, I have wondered and hoped that as she ages and looks back at her life and maybe has a new thrust with her involvement with her own child and male grandchild, that she will evolve a little more... Well, here I go making wishes for Joni's development. And if I had a semblence of her genius, talent, strength and a hundred other qualities I so admire in her being, I might not be sitting here being so prescriptive in my little box and would be pulling out a box of paints and using them instead. Marsha, a feminist who has always enjoyed the company of women a whole lot and is not popular at cocktail parties when I make this declaration ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:53:47 -0400 (EDT) From: madmission girl Subject: Re: Ani article critique (LONG) Yes, Marsha, you're right, I AM in law school, but I don't really know what kind of law I want to practice and writing is my first love. So I will be writing a letter to the editor and one day (cross my fingers) I will write a book and get it published. :) Rachel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:59:48 -0400 (EDT) From: madmission girl Subject: more on Joni/feminism Marsha...I share your impulses, and I think Ani is trying to say that it's sad somehow that there are powerful women, like Joni, who make it to the top and then say "it's not about gender, that's an excuse." I definitely understand where Ani is coming from, but to me there has to be a point where we really question what gender means. I think you can recognize sexism and acknowledge that it exists and not be a feminist, and to me that is perfectly valid. There are lots of female musicians who have echoed Joni's sentiments...I believe there was Chrissie Hynde and also Holly McNarland refused to do Lilith because she thought it was not a good idea for women to resegregate themselves from men in terms of music. Mostly I'm saying I think these are complicated issues and that while Ani's attack on Joni's stance is not a novel critique, I still think to some extent it's unfair. Rachel Kramer Bussel "by this i am able in all of my travels to make these memories quit but tonite i clearly recall every little bit" -- patty griffin "you might think i hate you" -- carla bozulich - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my Mary Lou Lord page is at http://pages.nyu.edu/~rkb200/ To join the Mary Lou Lord mailing list, email Majordomo@smoe.org with ONLY "subscribe jinglejangle" OR "subscribe jinglejangle-digest" in the BODY. For info on my zine I'M NOT WAITING go to http://pages.nyu.edu/~rkb200/zine.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:06:21 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Re: Ani article critique (LONG) madmission girl wrote: > > Yes, Marsha, you're right, I AM in law school, but I don't really know > what kind of law I want to practice and writing is my first love. So I > will be writing a letter to the editor and one day (cross my fingers) I > will write a book and get it published. That's great, Rachel! You are the kind of energetic woman we need in this world!!!! Regards, Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:19:40 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Re: more on Joni/feminism (NJC now) Hi, again, Rachel and all. One point about Lilith I would like to make: madmission girl wrote: > I believe there was Chrissie Hynde and also > Holly McNarland refused to do Lilith because she thought it was not a good > idea for women to resegregate themselves from men in terms of music. Well, economically and perhaps politically, I think the results of Lilith and what it has generated proves them wrong. Sometimes separation tactics serve to create more attention, better revenues and venues for establishing what is at first a "radical" stance, that quickly evolves into the accepted and mainstream... not a novel idea after all. And women were so far segregated from power positions in the industry, that Sarah M was brave and wise to call attention to it like she has. I think many have benefited from it more than have suffered, short and long-term. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:58:20 EDT From: WombQueen@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni in Denver Post All right, all right..... So I finally get aroung to reading this wonderful article int the Denver post, only to discover that it sounds eerily familiar.....it's the same damn article as was in the Chicago Tribune. Same author, ame everything (only different picture.) Oh well. That's what I get for contributing to the list maybe once a month ;) Enough light....back to the shadows. Womberfully yours, Womby P.S. Ashara, do you still want a copy? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:04:34 EDT From: WombQueen@aol.com Subject: Re: Coming to the Halloween Party as Joni Characters--Who will you be? (NJC) Okay, okay, one more post for me... Chilihead, Julie, and all who's included, I would love to be a part of the Halloween/Concert festivities in NYC....you guys are coming up with some great ideas!!!!!! This will be very hard to pass up, so I think I'm going to go for it...gotta think of a costume though. This will be the icing on the cake for me finally moving back to the east coast (thank you Joni!!).....maybe I could come as Amelia Earhart....just as long as this isn't a false alarm! ;) Yours, Womby ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:35:37 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: (NJC) Joni article by Ani, full text (long) Thank you so much Deb for sending this to the list. I've never had more respect for Ani than I do right now. My favorite stretch: <<>> You go girl! - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:07:13 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: (SJC) more on Joni/feminism Rachel wrote: <<>> Ani herself has been critical of Lilith Fair. In your critique of her article, I think you're confusing what was actually said with other issues. The crux of Ani's article was "either you think women deserve equal rights or you don't, and if you do, by definition you are a feminist." She didn't delve into the obviously complex issues about what methods we use to correct historic imbalances, which are the issues you address in your critique. Based on the article, I see no reason that Ani would disagree with you or Juliana Hatfield or Chrissie Hynde or whomever. She made no calls for segregation, yet you ascribed them to her. You wrote: <<>> But Ani isn't asking Joni to write about women's issues. Ani directly addresses the fact that women's issues are universal issues. She is merely asking Joni to use the definition of feminism created by feminists, not the definition created by reactionaries. In a way I think your critique proves her point--that we've let the word "feminism" be defined by its enemies, so that we don't really listen to feminism anymore before rejecting it. The locus of your criticism of Ani's plea for feminism centers on an issue--female segregation, both literal and metaphorical--to which Ani doesn't devote one word. In attempting to explain why Joni might reject feminism, you counter not the definition of feminism described by Ani (and frankly most feminists I know), but a definition fostered by the radical right in their attempts to, you guessed it, encourage people to reject feminism. You speak of "joining the club" and "thinking the same on every issue," but the only issue Ani's asking people to agree on is the right of women to equal legal, economic and social opportunity. You know, now that I think about it, I lied. Ani did address the segregation issue when she addressed Joni's comments about preferring the company of men. And she said: "I see no problem with her preferences and no inherent contradiction between the two ideas. One of the great lies of conservatism is that feminism and femininity are somehow in opposition to each other." I think your points are valid, Rachel, but I don't think they address anything in the article in question. - --Michael, a decent person and a feminist NP: Husker Du, _New Day Rising_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:23:59 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Re: Coming to the Halloween Party as Joni Characters--Who will you be? (NJC) Hi All, Debbie and I are still perservering on finding a room in town for both 10/31 and 11/1, The Greenwich village hotels are booked. We are moving uptown at this point. We are going to try the Grand Hyatt on 42nd Street. There was room at the Park Savoy but I don't know anything about that hotel. Who knows we may even try The Plaza. A friend of mine once rented a room there and then put as many people in it as could possibly fit and they said it came to just a few bucks each! Can you just see it now. Two or three black crows, Amelia, Edith and the Kingpin, The Hejira Joni , the TTT Joni all in one room! Still lookin' - -The Chilis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:53:43 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: more on Joni/feminism (NJC now) In a message dated 9/20/98 12:22:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, docnurse@VoyagerOnline.net writes: << Well, economically and perhaps politically, I think the results of Lilith and what it has generated proves them wrong. Sometimes separation tactics serve to create more attention, better revenues and venues for establishing what is at first a "radical" stance, that quickly evolves into the accepted and mainstream... >> Maybe you're right, but after watching "Soul of the Game," an excellent production about the Negro Baseball Leagues shown on the History Channel last night, I can't help but think that such separation tactics are not by choice, but from a lack of choice and that they would be mainstream if they could. Just wondering, Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:03:00 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: [Fwd: Ani article critique (LONG)] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------49A14FAF6CA3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a 22 year old law student. Remember your thoughts on any of this from when you were 22? - --------------49A14FAF6CA3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from chmls05.mediaone.net ([24.128.1.70]) by mtiwgwc03.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.05 118 121 101) with ESMTP id <19980920150715.CFHX13439@chmls05.mediaone.net>; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:07:15 +0000 Received: from smoe.org (080020908e73.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.147.247]) by chmls05.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18372; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id LAA28112; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:05:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id LAA28098 for joni-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from is5.nyu.edu (rkb200@IS5.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.145]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id LAA28094 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (rkb200@localhost) by is5.nyu.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15765; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:05:11 -0400 (EDT) From: madmission girl To: Joni List Subject: Ani article critique (LONG) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: madmission girl Precedence: bulk First of all...a big thank you to Deb for posting the article. Second, today I'm going to get myself to a printer and print it out and put it right next to my computer. THIS is what I want to write a book about - women in the '90s/feminism in the '90s, and how in many ways I disagree with Ani, not just in relation to Joni but in general. While in many ways I agree and sympathize with Ani, and I don't think it's just semantics, I think it's unfair in part and futile in part to criticize Joni for this stance. Juliana Hatfield has had some similar things to say...I don't have the exact quote, but she was criticized in a review for not writing more songs about specically "women's issues" and she said basically "look, I'm out here doing it every day, writing, singing, performing, I'm a strong woman performer and now I'm being criticized for not writing in a certain style"?? I think that while Ani is correct that conservatives try to split feminism and femininity, I think there are LOTS of ways that some strains of "feminism" do precisely the same thing when they try to only laud certain kinds of women. I have learned so much from various people I've met over the Internet, including an appreciation for people I hadn't thought of in that light before, like Pamela Anderson. For instance, some young mothers were very drawn to Pamela because she had her kids at home and she is very proud of her role as a mother. Jane Magazine (ahem) put her on their cover, sans makeup, with a pretty candid interview about her relationship with Tommy Lee. What does this have to do with Joni? Not much, but...I think that the Ani way of thinking is detrimental to the vision of feminism. There's a very good book called _Feminism Fatale_ by Paula Kamen and it's about how various younger women (teens, 20s, 30s) see the word "feminism" and why many of them choose to reject the word. I think this is lamentable BUT we can move on FROM there, and recognize the wealth of talents and spirits and outlooks that women have in common, not what we don't have in common. I feel like I could write my whole book countering Ani's article, because I really do think it's unfair in so many ways. For me, "feminism" (now, I do consider myself a feminist but I don't believe in a feminism where everyone must think the same about every issue) should and must be about making a world where women can make our own decisions. I have a Liz Phair quote from an interview saved which I'll try to find, but she basically talks about women having the opportunities to make their own choices. I firmly believe that that's what any "women's movement" and also on more individual levels HAS to be about, rather than about making everyone "join the club." Because as far as I can see, what Ani's article has done in terms of someone like Joni (if, say, I were in Joni's shoes) is make her defensive, make her feel "damned if I do, damned if I don't" and I don't believe this is good for anyone. Deb (or someone else) - can you give me the email address for letters to the editor to the LA Times Magazine? thanks... And sorry this is so long everyone, but as a 22-year-old women's studies major who does consider herself a feminist, I feel more strongly about this than probably anything else right now. If anyone's interested in more of my ideas about this, you can write me privately (rkb200@is5.nyu.edu). Actually, I feel inspired...I have had so many ideas percolating in my head and these very vague ideas for a book (with the theme being that there are so many roles for women today that we don't have to split women against each other as in: mother vs. non-mother, working woman vs. non-working woman, straight vs. gay, Hillary vs. Monica (which basically I've seen in several pieces lately). These are FALSE distinctions IMO, not because women aren't different, but that it's FINE to be different, that we truly need to embrace these differences rather than antagonize one another. thanks for letting me rant, Rachel "by this i am able in all of my travels to make these memories quit but tonite i clearly recall every little bit" -- patty griffin "you might think i hate you" -- carla bozulich - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- my Mary Lou Lord page is at http://pages.nyu.edu/~rkb200/ To join the Mary Lou Lord mailing list, email Majordomo@smoe.org with ONLY "subscribe jinglejangle" OR "subscribe jinglejangle-digest" in the BODY. For info on my zine I'M NOT WAITING go to http://pages.nyu.edu/~rkb200/zine.html - --------------49A14FAF6CA3-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 11:16:21 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: [Fwd: Ani article critique (LONG)] Mark or Travis wrote: > > This is a 22 year old law student. Remember your thoughts on any of > this from when you were 22? My apologies to the list and to Rachel. I meant to forward this to a friend who is also a big fan of Joni's but is not a member of the list. This happens every once in awhile. I go to my address book and somehow Melanie & Joni become synonymous in my head and I hit the wrong address. Just as a little explanation, my friend Melanie & I went to the same university. We are both now in our 40's, both still fans of Joni (this was our first connection back when we met) and both consider ourselves to be feminists. My intro to Rachel's post was not meant in any way to sound condescending or patronizing because of her age. I think Rachel's comments were well presented and expressed and show a great deal of intelligence & wisdom. Age doesn't necessarily bring that to humans. BTW, Melanie has made some of the same points that Ani made when we've discussed Joni's stance on feminism. So many people here have said that the list is their only outlet for their love of Joni's music. I feel very blessed in having a close friend that lives in the same city that I can share Joni with. Mark in Seattle who is sorry for taking up time & bandwidth because I'm a yutz. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:43:31 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: more on Joni/feminism (NJC now) << docnurse@VoyagerOnline.net writes: << Well, economically and perhaps politically, I think the results of Lilith and what it has generated proves them wrong. Sometimes separation tactics serve to create more attention, better revenues and venues for establishing what is at first a "radical" stance, that quickly evolves into the accepted and mainstream... >> Paul I said: <> Very interesting analogy, and quite correct I think, but the Negro Baseball Leagues issues are complex. This from "Baseball and African American Life" by Gerald Early: "There was something about both the existence of the Negro Leagues and the subsequent integration of the major leagues - despite the fact that blacks generally wanted integration very much - that resembled, in some manner, in the black mind, a kind of theft. That is, first, the Negro Leagues robbed black players not only of their proper saleries and recognition, but of their dignity by being reminded through their segregated play that they were somehow not worthy to play with whites. Then when the major leagues were integrated, the Negro Leagues were robbed of their best players and an important black economic and cultural institution was destroyed." Marsha's point manifests itself in the Negro League example: The major decision making and crucial economic roles in baseball - positions that determine not just player selection but use of independent vendors and contractors - clearly exclude blacks. In the Negro leagues there were black presidents and owners, there have zero black owners or presidents in major league baseball ever. - -Julius ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #364 ************************** Don't forget about these ongoing projects: FAQ Project: Help compile the JMDL FAQ. Do you have mailing list-related questions? -send them to Trivia Project: Send your Joni trivia questions and/or answers to Today in History Project: Know of a date-specific Joni fact? -send it to ------- Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?