From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #326
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Friday, August 28 1998 Volume 03 : Number 326
The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available
now. Go to for all the details.
-------
The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank
message to for all the details.
-------
Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things
Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered -
to
-------
And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee.
Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to
for more info.
-------
The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives,
and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Re: All I Want covers (LJC) response [Charstarl@aol.com]
Re: Joni Harmony [M.Russell@iaea.org]
Overture - Cotton Avenue transcription [M.Russell@iaea.org]
Unknown Lyric [michael ]
COD [michael ]
Re: Thanks for the memories - the Gorge revisited [Chan Chi-Man ]
Re: That autobiography ["Deb Messling" ]
Re: Cockburn's Magnetic Strip ["Deb Messling" ]
the Tiger metaphor ["Deb Messling" ]
Re: All I Want covers (LJC) [Jerry Notaro ]
Re: the Tiger metaphor ["Deb Messling" ]
Re: Joni Harmony [Jerry Notaro ]
Re: [Fwd: Abbreviations] [Mark or Travis ]
-I seem to remember a Tim Curry album with 'Cold Blue Steel & Sweet Fire' ["Reuben Bell3" ]
Re: Joni Harmony [jc]/ phair's egg[njc] [TerryM2442@aol.com]
Re: little joni noises [TerryM2442@aol.com]
Re: little joni noises [Marsha ]
Re: the Tiger metaphor [Bill Dollinger ]
Geez...(NJC) [Steve Dulson ]
Reprise website and links ["John M. Lind" ]
re: little joni noises ["Reuben Bell3" ]
Unleaded (NJC) [Mary Pitassi ]
It's nearly September!!!!! [Hassan Zubairi ]
Joni Choir songs [Hassan Zubairi ]
Synchroknickery [Hassan Zubairi ]
Re: the Tiger metaphor ["Deb Messling" ]
Re: this list was 'no subject' (njc) [LRFye@aol.com]
Re: COD (NJC) [LRFye@aol.com]
RE: the Tiger metaphor [Michael Yarbrough ]
RE: little joni noises ["Wally Kairuz" ]
Re: the Tiger metaphor [catman ]
Re: this list was 'no subject' (njc) [catman ]
(Much) Joni-inspired Actions (sjc) [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)]
Unleaded, and coming up Rosie [Bill Dollinger ]
Kate Bush (NJC) [Bounced Message ]
Today in Joni History - August 29 [Today in Joni History ]
Reviews of Taming the Tiger [Bounced Message ]
Today in Joni History - August 30 [Today in Joni History ]
re: Rosie O'Donnell ["Reuben Bell3" ]
re: Kate Bush ["Reuben Bell3" ]
Proselyting Joni ["Kakki" ]
BRUUUUUCE [Tunajon@aol.com]
NJC Reminders (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ]
Re: little joni noises [Rob Jordan ]
Re: Synchroknickery and harmony [Rob Jordan ]
NJC - "I Have A Dream" [Les Irvin ]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 03:14:00 EDT
From: Charstarl@aol.com
Subject: Re: All I Want covers (LJC) response
Mark - I have Tim Curry's version of "Cold Steel and Blue Fire" on a CD
entitled, The Best of Tim Curry. It's on A&M Records and was released in
1989. I like his version. Curry passionately performs it with quite a twist
of anger in his voice. I've always admired him for taking that particular
song on, as I think it'd be a difficult one to interpret. That album also has
one of my favorite songs on it, entitled, "Simplicity." Check it out and let
me know what you think. Charlotte*
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:05:00 +0200
From: M.Russell@iaea.org
Subject: Re: Joni Harmony
Terry wrote:
<< So I was wondering what songs my pals here
<< like best when they hear a Joni choir going.
Free Man in Paris, Shadows and Light
Marian
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:42:26 +0200
From: M.Russell@iaea.org
Subject: Overture - Cotton Avenue transcription
Just wanted to let people know that I've I added chords for the
additional verses in this song, because I found it too difficult to
remember what to do at the end of each verse. I still can't play this
very well, even though I made a transcription of it, but I'm working on
it!
http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/4293/jm_cotton.htm
Also, I've been having a discussion with Ken Slarty about the tuning for
this song. He's pretty sure, and I think he's probably right, that Jim
Leahy's tuning of C75435 is the one Joni is using for the main guitar.
My rationale for using the tuning of C75543 is that, with only one
guitar, the harmonics at minute 2:02 (on the CD counter) cannot be
achieved in Jim's tuning. To me, these harmonics seem very essential to
the entire song because they are quite clear and they sound very pretty.
I'd feel bad leaving them out in my transcription - it would be as
though I'd overlooked them to anyone with a good ear. I don't have
anyone to play the other guitar, which is the case with most people, and
I can only play one guitar. I feel that the transcription I did for
this song in the tuning of C75543 captures reasonably accurately for one
guitar what is happening musically in the recording with two (and
possibly more) guitars. The chord shapes are more difficult to play
than those in Jim's tuning, and Joni probably didn't play it like this,
but they are not impossible chords. Some of the changes take some
practice, but your hand won't ache after trying to play my
transcription.
Marian
Vienna
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:15:48 +1000 (EST)
From: michael
Subject: Unknown Lyric
I read a Quote from Joni today and I cant place it
"She can lure you where she wants you to go"
Anyone know where its from?
I wonder if Joni knows Bruce?
- --
michaelb@coolgold.com.au
http://www.coolgold.com.au/~michaelb/index.html
On the other hand
You have 5 fingers!!!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:15:46 +1000 (EST)
From: michael
Subject: COD
Lori in SATX wrote:
>OK, I'll bite! I am officially asking for the entire JMDL to come to MA for
>the Labor Day party on September 5th.
>OK.....waiting for 430 replys.......
Fine with me.
I'll pack myself in an airtight COD container and send my self off.
Look out for a package from Australia at your local airport.
:)
- --
michaelb@coolgold.com.au
http://www.coolgold.com.au/~michaelb/index.html
On the other hand
You have 5 fingers!!!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:56:15 -1000
From: Chan Chi-Man
Subject: Re: Thanks for the memories - the Gorge revisited
Hi all,
I am new to the list and I wonder what is tape tree? I am in
Hawaii and so, unfortunately, I can't go to the concert.
If somebody has Joni's Live recording, please let me know, and I
am very happy to get it.
Thanks,
Ambrose
On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Mark or Travis wrote:
> Thanks to Don Fluke who must have hopped right on spinning my copies of
> Tape Tree 7 after getting back to Florida from the the Garden I received
> said tape tree yesterday. This morning I plugged the tape of the Gorge
> concert into the tape deck of my car. I had the strangest reaction.
> Tears and then outright sobs. I felt like I had received the most
> wonderful gift. Let me try & explain.
>
> When I saw Joni at the Gorge it was the first time I had ever seen her
> live. I had waited for that concert for about 24 years. I was so keyed
> up by the time she hit the stage that I think I was in some kind of
> altered state (without benefit of any kind of chemicals). Then there
> were people talking all around us almost all the way through the set. I
> had to concentrate really hard to block them out so they wouldn't ruin
> the experience for me. As a result of the stress this created or for
> whatever reason I seemed to have formed a mental block as to what the
> concert actually sounded like. The pictures were clear in my mind's eye
> but I couldn't HEAR the music in my memory.
>
> Well this morning when I heard the first chords of 'Night Ride Home' it
> all came rushing back. The tears started to form in my eyes and then I
> literally started sobbing. And after awhile I was saying out loud to no
> one but myself 'I was THERE!' This tape gave me back the experience and
> now I can have it whenever I want. Thank you to Wally & Les and Don
> Fluke and most of all a HUGE thank you & hug to Simon. The tape trees I
> have are all wonderful but this one is so special to me. It's an
> incredible gift and in a way I guess it's from all of you on the JMDL
> because without you there would be no JMDL and no tape trees. Being a
> part of this community is an incredibly rewarding experience. Thank you
> all, from the bottom of my heart.
>
> Mark in Seattle
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:50:36 EDT
From: WirlyPearl@aol.com
Subject: Re: Unknown Lyric
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In a message dated 8/28/98 5:18:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
michaelb@coolgold.com.au writes:
<<
I read a Quote from Joni today and I cant place it
"She can lure you where she wants you to go"
Anyone know where its from?
>>
This is from Roses Blue on the Clouds album
"In sorrow she can lure you where she wants you
Inside your own self pity there you swim
In sinking down to drown her voice still haunts you
And only with your laughter can you win, can you win
Can you win"
Pearl
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Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:15:48 +1000 (EST)
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Subject: Unknown Lyric
From: michael
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I read a Quote from Joni today and I cant place it
"She can lure you where she wants you to go"
Anyone know where its from?
I wonder if Joni knows Bruce?
- --
michaelb@coolgold.com.au
http://www.coolgold.com.au/~michaelb/index.html
On the other hand
You have 5 fingers!!!
- --part0_904301437_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:52:40 +0100
From: "secret"
Subject: Re: RE: Joni Mitchell in Ireland
Isn't Clouds dedicated to her Irish grandmother ? Don't know where /if
I read this. Can someone verify.
Which reminds me, I haven't owned this record for many years since the
original reprise label release with the hard board sleeve walked from my
house. If you're reading this, I want it back ...........NOW.
Philip
>In a message dated 8/27/98 4:37:43 PM, trxschwa@bway.net wrote:
>
>>i don't think that kakki or i, the resident jmdl irish-americans, knew
that
>>joni was 1/4 irish, although she certainly has been hinting, talking about
>>her irish ear, and recently with the lyric from 'lead balloon' from the
>>upcoming album
>
>hey how about me. i'm irish american too. mcconnell, see? but with a first
>name like mariana you'd never know. some people think i'm foreign, whatever
>planet they're from!
>
>mariana
>
>NP: NOTHING (cause I felt....)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:33:21 +0000
From: "Deb Messling"
Subject: Re: That autobiography
I agree with Michael that Joni is unlikely to write a tell-all book.
The last reliable news I recall was that Joni was writing a
(presumably slim) book of memoirs focusing on her encounters with
Charles Mingus, Georgia O'Keefe and -- who was the third?
(BTW, Michael, excellent idea about Van Gogh -- I'll get back to you
when I pin down my SO)
> among other
> topics she would be discussing her affairs in the '70s. Excuse me?!
> That sounds like the last thing Joni would waste her time discussing
> in a book. It sounds very suspect to me...
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:39:28 +0000
From: "Deb Messling"
Subject: Re: Cockburn's Magnetic Strip
> On his most recent cd Charities of Night, I really love Pacing the Cage,
There's a hint in this song of his being imprisoned by celebrity,
although it's more about being imprisoned by "this mortal coil" as
somone on the Bruce list put it. I couldn' help thinking about
Pacing the Cage when I first heard Taming the Tiger.
> alan in ames, who thinks that Joni and Bruce would be electric together, and
> would make a great collaborative song writing team
During the AOL cyber discussion a few years back, someone asked Joni
if she has ever considered collaborating with Bruce, and she said one
word: "No."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:43:53 +0000
From: "Deb Messling"
Subject: the Tiger metaphor
I'm not sure the Tiger as a metaphor for the ugly show business beast
works for me. Mainly because when I think "tiger" I don't think
dangerous, I think endangered.
Seems to be a more accurate metaphor (and more resonate for modern
ears) would have been the tiger as the artistic spirit, endangered by
an exploitative and materialistic world. That's what's *really*
happening to the tiger!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:50:21 -0400
From: Jerry Notaro
Subject: Re: All I Want covers (LJC)
Mark or Travis wrote:
I seem to remember a Tim Curry album with 'Cold Blue Steel & Sweet Fire'
> on it. A friend had it but I don't remember what it sounded like.
Actually it was pretty good, very hard and edgy, sort of Lou Reed with horns. His one big hit was I Do the Rock. I had 2 of his albums. I remember seeing a musical short at the movie theatre which promoted his album, which I think
was called Joe's Garage.
Jerry
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:10:19 +0000
From: "Deb Messling"
Subject: Re: the Tiger metaphor
Yeah, but the key phrase is "without a weapon," which is an unlikely
situation. More people are eating tigers than vice versa (tiger
penis soup is a delicacy purported to be a natural Viagra).
Looking at show business, it's the Business that has all the weapons.
And it's the artist that gets eaten, for the sake of other's
people's profits and machismo.
MDESTE said:
> If you are in the jungle alone without a weapon around feeding time, it is not
> the Tiger which is endangered still today. Endangered speicies are not
> "tam(ing)ed.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:06:02 -0400
From: Jerry Notaro
Subject: Re: Joni Harmony
I've always loved the harmony of Joan and Joni in Dida.
Jerry
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:13:09 -0700
From: Mark or Travis
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Abbreviations]
Jim L'Hommedieu wrote:
> LOL I'm laughing out loud!
> ROTF I'm rolling on the floor with laughter!
Then of course there's:
ROTFLMAO - rolling on the floor laughing my ass off
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:19:29 -0400
From: "Reuben Bell3"
Subject: -I seem to remember a Tim Curry album with 'Cold Blue Steel & Sweet Fire'
- -I seem to remember a Tim Curry album with 'Cold Blue Steel & Sweet Fire'
on it. A friend had it but I don't remember what it sounded like.
Mark in Seattle-
You're right-it was "Cold Blue Steel", not "Carey". Its been a long time...
Reuben
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:29:33 -0700
From: Mark or Travis
Subject: Re: Joni Harmony
Jerry Notaro wrote:
>
> I've always loved the harmony of Joan and Joni in Dida.
>
> Jerry
I love Seal's 'If I Could'. It's a duet with Joni but they do sing some
harmony on the last verse & it is exquisite.
Mark in Seattle
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:42:04 EDT
From: TerryM2442@aol.com
Subject: Re: Joni Harmony [jc]/ phair's egg[njc]
In a message dated 8/28/98 1:37:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
wallykai@interserver.com.ar writes:
<< the
harmonies on c&s are the most challenging to the untrained ear: >>
Yes! It just makes me appreciate her genius even more, especially when I
*attempt* to write a song and wag my head in wonder- how DOES she come UP with
this stuff?? The harmonies alone are brilliant.
Terry
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:57:25 EDT
From: TerryM2442@aol.com
Subject: Re: little joni noises
In a message dated 8/28/98 2:46:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com
writes:
<< I've always thought I hear the sound of a candle being blown out at the end
of
"Down to You." Has anyone else ever noticed this? >>
I'll have to check that out. But..has anyone noticed the big gulp/gasp she
seems to take towards the beginning of Urge For Going: "bully winds came
around, pushed them face down (GULP) in the snow"..?
Terry
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:01:02 -0400
From: Marsha
Subject: Re: little joni noises
TerryM2442@aol.com wrote:
> I'll have to check that out. But..has anyone noticed the big gulp/gasp she
> seems to take towards the beginning of Urge For Going: "bully winds came
> around, pushed them face down (GULP) in the snow"..?
and this reminds me of the very end of "Two Grey Rooms" where
there is a guy doing a grunt in the last seconds. One of the times
you must turn up the volume almost all the way to catch it.
A definite male...sexy...grunt...
sort of a "hoo-ah" with the diaphragm engaged at the end.
Marsha
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:15:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Dollinger
Subject: Re: the Tiger metaphor
I think the metaphor is meant to illustrate
the folly in believing that you can control
fame. In that way, the tiger works. For instance,
last year at Ringling Brothers circus during
a press photo shoot, tiger trainer Richard
Chipperfield was attacked by Arnie, one
of the tigers under his "control." He was
purring at his side one second, and took
a swipe at his head the next. (the other handlers
got the tiger back into the cage, and later
the lead trainer for Ringling's big felines
fetched a shotgun and pumped five bullets
and killed Arnie)
Anyway, I think the metaphor works on the
level of captive animals. However, I don't
think joni intended the metaphor as all inclusive
("fame and/or the record biz is always like a tiger")
Predators serve an important function in nature. Their
role in natural selection is the key factor of
evolution and the development of healthy
ecosystems. But natural selection in reverse
seems to be the case for the record biz. I think
the point is made in TTT that the nature of the
record biz dictates that mediocrity is rewarded
and the weak offspring of this mediocrity is
overpopulating the airwaves.
Bill
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Deb Messling wrote:
> Yeah, but the key phrase is "without a weapon," which is an unlikely
> situation. More people are eating tigers than vice versa (tiger
> penis soup is a delicacy purported to be a natural Viagra).
>
> Looking at show business, it's the Business that has all the weapons.
> And it's the artist that gets eaten, for the sake of other's
> people's profits and machismo.
>
>
> MDESTE said:
>
> > If you are in the jungle alone without a weapon around feeding time, it is not
> > the Tiger which is endangered still today. Endangered speicies are not
> > "tam(ing)ed.
> >
> >
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:49:17 -0700
From: Steve Dulson
Subject: Geez...(NJC)
Jim Lamadama wrote:
>Ashara wants 430 replies. This looks like a job for Steve Dulson's
>computer. Will ya do it Steve?
Geez, you guys, lighten up, OK?
##############################################################
Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com
"The Tinker's Own"
http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html
"Southern California Dulcimer Heritage"
http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:41:57 -0400
From: "John M. Lind"
Subject: Reprise website and links
Hey all, I'm finnally back online(at work, anyway)
Marsha wrote:
I don't know that Reprise et al would publish a site
they do not control. And seeing what happened to us Ginophiles,
I don't think I would ever want a sterile, moderated, and
resultant slap in the faces of fans to ever occur in the
name of Joni.
and Reuben added:
Perhaps Reprise could put a TTT promo page on their website that could
maybe have a link to jonimitchell.com or something. This is a great
community we have here...it would be a shame to kill it.
I agree we don't want WB/Reprise taking over the websites, not that there's
any danger of that happening(thank the goddess). They already have a link
on their website to Wally's though, I checked it out yesterday. Since the
marquee has disapeared from JMDL.com I wanted to make sure the TTT release
date hadn't been pushed back(again) to something like December, of 2012
;-). I did, hover notice that the tribute album has been pushed back to
"sometime in 1999", let's hear it for the marketing genuises at Reprise, eh?
John(HairFarmer)~
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:49:59 -0400
From: "Reuben Bell3"
Subject: re: little joni noises
and this reminds me of the very end of "Two Grey Rooms" where
- -there is a guy doing a grunt in the last seconds. One of the times
you must turn up the volume almost all the way to catch it.
A definite male...sexy...grunt...
sort of a "hoo-ah" with the diaphragm engaged at the end.
Marsha-
Yes! Marsha I have noticed this before. "Two Grey Rooms" has a very "live" feel to it, I have always thought. As far as background noises are concerned, my favorite is in two chrouses of "Lakota". After Joni sings "Do you hear the whimpering waters when the tractors come?" and "We have seen the trampled rainbows in the smoke of cars" she makes this incredible sort of whimpering shriek in the background. I have always wanted to listen to the layers of this song seperately. (A lot of songs from "Chalkmark", actually. Its very layered.)
Reuben
np: still The Dream Academy - A Different Kind of Weather ("St. Valentines Day") (I just picked this up in the "please take these out of our store!" bin - very underated band.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:02:12 -0500
From: Mary Pitassi
Subject: Unleaded (NJC)
Bill Dollinger:
I agree. Your Partridge Family quiz did not go over like a lead balloon
at all--at least with me! I loved it!! Unfortunately, I was just too
busy to respond last week.
Here's hoping for Quiz 2 on whatever topic you like!
Mary P.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:12:50 +-100
From: Hassan Zubairi
Subject: It's nearly September!!!!!
Just a short reminder. Only one month before us English people get to buy TTT. I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait.
JamieJakecan'twaitformuchjoni
LIMH: Sometime voices in the night, will call me back this way
back along the pathways of a troubled mind....
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:44:46 +-100
From: Hassan Zubairi
Subject: Joni Choir songs
Someone mentioned that you read somewhere that JM sang in a choir. It was most recently mentioned in Acoustic Guitar magazine article by Jeffrey Pepper Rogers (or Jeffrey Rodgers Peppers, I can't remember which) where she mentioned that she sang the contramelody line most of the time and that she usually had to sing lines where the intervals (between notes) were irregular and it was there she learnt to keep a melodic line.
Having learnt choral singing in drama school (and having to learn the bass/baritone lines all the time, I can never parallel harmony. It takes much concentration on my part to do that. I jump from chord to chord, sometimes the third, sometimes the fifth, sometimes aflatted note. It's a bore because my singing partner gets irritated.
This works well with JM music though.
Listen carefully to Lat Chance Lost. It's short but the different voices that she uses come out to the fore and you can hear all the Joni's singing away. It's beautiful.
Much Joni
JamieJake
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:08:46 +-100
From: Hassan Zubairi
Subject: Synchroknickery
Hello Folks
Someone sent a post regarding Cotton Avenue. I had just played it today, this morning, REALLY LOUD. It wasn't until I had read it in the digest that the images of "frog and dogs and night birds started singing a sweet country lullabye" came real to me . It must be the density of the music, that until I seperate the two (which is really hard), like reading it in a posting, that the images become pictures rather than sounds.
Thank you for that.
Also Doug Rowe wondered about the Gold WTRF CD. I have been hankering after that for a while now. Unfortunately the copy in Tower in Piccadilly Circus has GONE!!!! Nice to know that there's more than one collector out there.
I manged to buy C&S gold for Christmas. It had the pop up jewel box and paper liner notes (as opposed to that magazine cover type paper that normal cds are printed on), with the 'Court and Spark' embossed and not in brown in like the other CD. The quality is much better than the first C&S cd that was bought years ago.
Still makes wonderful listening whatever format. I need to listen to it on a great cd player, however.
Much Joni
JamieJake
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:49:07 +0000
From: "Deb Messling"
Subject: Re: the Tiger metaphor
>. You still are ignoring the word "taming"
Not ignoring at all. Just wondering whether the metaphor succeeds,
given the emotions that the words evoke in a modern context. For
me, it doesn't work, since I think tigers are beautiful and noble
and ought not be tamed.
> Your PC metaphor is gratuitous. Consider all the words
>she is actually using. regards md.
I'm detecting a hostile tone where which puzzles me. And I didn't
mention PCs, even indirectly (did I?)
Bill Dollinger said:
> I think the metaphor is meant to illustrate
> the folly in believing that you can control
> fame. In that way, the tiger works.
I think that is probably what Joni is getting at, and it does work on
a logical level, but it doesn't work for me because the emotional
subtext is out of kilter. I also confess to be influenced by the
radio interview in which Joni said, "What is the tiger? Is the tiger
show business?" and I thought it sounded so lame. (Maybe I'm not
sure that someone's relationship with show business deserves
a metaphor at all. Or maybe I think that the moon on black water
and the rustling arbutus said it once and for all).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:41:43 EDT
From: LRFye@aol.com
Subject: Re: this list was 'no subject' (njc)
Denise wrote, about email:
> I thought you had to highlight the text for it to show up in your response.
As Terry pointed out, Denise is on AOL, so she has to highlight the text she
wants to repeat. This is the default set-up for AOL, and I haven't found a
way to change it. However, most other email systems have a method of choosing
whether to automatically repeat the entire text of the email to which you're
responding, or not.
Everyone, please take the time to learn your email system, and choose the
option that does not repeat the entire text. Learn how to highlight (or copy
and paste) the text you do want to repeat for the sake of reference, but try
to limit the reference to the minimum needed to continue the thread.
This will help those on digest (who I think are the majority of listers) and
everyone will be a happier camper.
Lori
in SATX
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:47:17 EDT
From: LRFye@aol.com
Subject: Re: COD (NJC)
Michael B. thought I wrote:
> OK, I'll bite!
>
> OK.....waiting for 430 replys.......
But it was Ashara who wrote that ... and Ashara, you might be expecting 70
more replies ... I checked out the JMDL home page the other day and we're up
to 500 listers! Yippee!
Lori
in SATX, who like Marsha, is looking forward to the day we hit 1000 ...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:57:35 -0400
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: RE: the Tiger metaphor
In the KCRW interview she mentions that she worked very hard at
not mixing her metaphors because she found it difficult to stay
focused on the tiger. IMO it shows, because I find the lyrics to
TTT to be remarkably unfocused for her, and the hodge-podge of
the scenic imagery of the verses, the William Blake and "Boring
boring the old man is snoring" allusions, and the frankly bitter-
sounding (not that there's anything wrong with that) explicit anti-
music biz statements don't cohere into a powerful vision. There
are times when it's hard to figure out what exactly a song means
because it's textured and difficult (e.g. "Sweet Bird"), but there
are also times when it's hard to decipher a song because it's
not written as well as it could be. IMHO TTT's lyrics fall into the
latter category.
OTOH, I absolutely *LOVE* the music and *ESPECIALLY* the
vocal performance on this track. In fact, I pulled out NRH last
night and was struck by how much I preferred her voice today
in its emotional colorings. I think she's exquisitely growing into
her post-cigarette voice and capable of far gretaer nuance with
it than even on TI. The Gershwin/Gaye/Holiday tunes don't hurt
that at all--in fact, I'd say they may be the primary catalyst for
her growth in this area. "Man from Mars," "Harlem in Havana,"
"Crazy Cries of Love"--they all have such a nuanced vocal
performance, each unique and compelling. I think that and her
experimentation with different guitar sounds will be the highlight
of the new record for me.
Guess I stumbled far afield of the topic, huh?
- --Michael, who thinks the lyrics to "Harlem" are among her best
by the way
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:32:22 -0300
From: "Wally Kairuz"
Subject: RE: little joni noises
Now I remember also the background laughter at the end of DJRD [the song].
It sounds like a we-pulled-it-off kind of laughter to me.
WallyK, back to capital letters today
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:21:21 +0100
From: catman
Subject: Re: the Tiger metaphor
The trouble with language and people is that we all interpret things
differently according to our own meaning constructs. As shown by Deb
taking a different meaning from Taming The Tiger. Doesn't mean she is
wrong. Deb, I too feel a tiger does not need to be tamed. Perhaps Taming
The Ego would be more apt!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:23:43 +0100
From: catman
Subject: Re: this list was 'no subject' (njc)
I use netscape. I go to EDIT selct SELECT ALL and then press DELETE. This deletes
all oif the pr4evious message. If I wan to quote some of it, I highlight what I
don't want and press delete. Or use the the key with the left pointing arrow to
delete one letter at a time.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:30:00 +0100
From: catman
Subject: Re: the Tiger metaphor
I just thought of a saying that does not work or me:
'as if butter wouln't melt in her mouth'. Meaning she looks all sweet and
innocent. Yet for me it describes the exact opposite. A hot mouth would
to me describe someone nice. A cold mouth(so butter wouldn't melt)
describes a mean spirited person.
So that saying always confused me!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 98 18:35:16 GMT
From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)
Subject: (Much) Joni-inspired Actions (sjc)
I bought a coffee percolator last week. I keep *telling* myself it makes a
great pot of coffee (especially as I attempt to dispose of the hot, messy
grinds without burning myself) but I wonder. My partner, a big coffee drinker,
still prefers the taste of the automatic drip coffeemaker.
While I got it in search of "a better-tasting cup of coffee," I know that deep
down it was some romantic notion I've always had about those things from all
those listens to The Last Time I Saw Richard.
When I was a child, coffee percolators were everywhere, but by the time I
became a coffee-drinking adult they'd been replaced by drip coffeemakers, and
nobody used them anymore. I think I always felt cheated by this phenomenon
when listening to Richard. So I got one and I'm enjoying it, extra work and
all :-)
Anyone have a similar story?
I noticed Patrick signed an email yesterday saying "Much Joni" with thanks to
JamieJake from London, who originated the signature. I've always admired that
signature too, it says so much, almost like all the sentiments of "My Best To
You" in two short words!
Much Joni! (hope you don't mind that I'm borrowing it too, JJ!)
-Kenny
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:57:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Dollinger
Subject: Unleaded, and coming up Rosie
Thanks Mary, and everyone else who has commented
about the partridge family quiz. I was somewhat
kidding with the lead balloon line.
On another subject, I suggest we start contacting
the Rosie ODonnell show and ask for them to
put joni on soon, mentioning that she should get more
airtime (last time i think it was tina louise that
ate up some potential joni air-time. --nothing
against ginger, i always thought she was more
interesting than maryanne, but c'mon!)
Bill
On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Mary Pitassi wrote:
> Bill Dollinger:
>
> I agree. Your Partridge Family quiz did not go over like a lead balloon
> at all--at least with me! I loved it!! Unfortunately, I was just too
> busy to respond last week.
>
> Here's hoping for Quiz 2 on whatever topic you like!
>
> Mary P.
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:56:28 -0600
From: Bounced Message
Subject: Kate Bush (NJC)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:44:34 -0600
From: evian
> Red Shoes is a bummer
Sorry, I really beg to differ on this one. Kate's "The Red Shoes"
is, in my opinion, her best album, and it is one of those few albums
that I would take with me on a deserted island (remember that thread?).
True, the album is "sleek", like "The Sensual World", but it is one of
those albums that grabs you from the start. My faves on it are "Top of
the City", "Constellation of the Heart", the uplifting "Eat the Music"
and the poignant "Moments of Pleasure." It took a while to grow on me,
since I didn't think anything could surpass "Hounds of Love", but I am
so glad that I gave it a chance and kept listening to it. Anyway, this
is just my opinion, but I recommend that you all check it out.
Cheers,
Evian
NP: what else, but "The Red Shoes"!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:08:00 -0600
From: Today in Joni History
Subject: Today in Joni History - August 29
1969: Today the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix printed an article entitled "Joni's
Love of Words Turns Into a $500,000 Bonanza." An excerpt:
"Less singer than songwriter, less songwriter than poet, she has come from
obscurity in the past two years to a prominence where practically everyone
- - from Frank Sinatra to Johnny Cash - records her compositions and where
her own concerts and albums give her an income of $500,000 a year. "My
mother raised me on words," she says. "Where other parents would quote from
the Bible, she would quote from Shakespeare. She was a romantic woman. She
encouraged me in all those old-fashioned things. I kept pressed-flower
scrapbooks."
Read the full article at: http://www.jonimitchell.com/SaskatoonStar69.html
1969: Joni and CSN perform the fourth of seven nights at the Greek Theater
in Los Angeles.
1986: (From Wally's bio page) "A Showtime series "Coast to Coast" hosted by
Herbie Hancock premiered [today]. Joni was a guest on that first show for a
jam session with Herbie, Bobby McFerrin, Wayne Shorter, David Sanborn, and
Larry. The two songs they jammed on were Joni's compositions "Furry Sing
the Blues," and a pepped-up latin-flavored version of "Hejira."
Read further from Wally's page at:
http://www.jonimitchell.com/Experimental.html
- --------
Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to
JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list.
- --------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:57:31 -0600
From: Bounced Message
Subject: Reviews of Taming the Tiger
From: "Kurt Joachim von Behrmann"
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:07:33 -0700
August 27, 1998
There has been a great deal of attention paid to Joni Mitchell's music.
Often some of the reviews have missed her importance, or even the
significance of her massive influence.
That is why I am interested in composing a fair, accurate review of Taming
the Tiger when it is released.
I spoke with her management about an advance copy of TTT, but no one has
responded.
If anyone is interested in this topic, I would welcome any comments or
concerns.
In the past I have written art reviews, comedy club reviews, book reviews
and the like and I would welcome the chance to do one of Joni's have it see
the light of day.
Kurt Joachim von Behrmann
P.O. Box 3142, Scottsdale, AZ 85271
Email: joachim7@worldnet.att.net
alt email one: 7joachim@netscape.net
alt email two: behrmann@hotmail.com
Web Sites:
http://home.att.net/~joachim7 (The Main Site)
http://members.tripod.com/~vonbehrmann/index.html
http://member.xoom.com/behrmann
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:09:00 -0600
From: Today in Joni History
Subject: Today in Joni History - August 30
1969: Joni and CSN perform the sixth of seven nights at the Greek Theater
in Los Angeles.
1970: Joni plays on the fourth day of the "Isle Of Wight Festival" at the
East Afton Farm, Godshill, Isle of Wight.
Wally writes on his page: "When Joni came out on stage, the size of the
audience amazed her. She told them "It looks like they're making "Ben-Hur"
or something!" All through her hour-long set, she had to deal with the
noise of the rowdy and agitated crowds, and the frequent and distracting
sound of small airplanes taking off. About two-thirds of the way through
her song "Chelsea Morning" she stopped and told the audience "I don't feel
like singing that song very much. Let me play you one on the piano.""
Read the entire article at: http://www.jonimitchell.com/Isle70.html
- --------
Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to
JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list.
- --------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:12:40 -0400
From: "Reuben Bell3"
Subject: re: Rosie O'Donnell
{On another subject, I suggest we start contacting
the Rosie ODonnell show and ask for them to
put joni on soon, mentioning that she should get more
airtime}
That was a very disappointing day at my house. I got all set to watch that episode (I used to really enjoy that show, and was excited at the prospect of Joni and Rosie dishing it) and it was canceled that day in Philadelphia for a special on the Philadelphia Eagles. Now, I have nothing against the Eagles, but for CRYING OUT LOUD!! I was royally pissed. I still haven't seen the episode, and heard that she sang "Harry's House", which is a fave. Grrrr.
still smarting,
Reuben
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:17:53 -0400
From: "Reuben Bell3"
Subject: re: Kate Bush
{Sorry, I really beg to differ on this one. Kate's "The Red Shoes"
is, in my opinion, her best album, and it is one of those few albums
that I would take with me on a deserted island (remember that thread?).}
I only recently started getting into The Red Shoes. You're The One still kills me. All of the songs are good, but I never thought they stuck together as a group very well. Top Of The City is one of my favorites, too. I still like The Sensual World much better, though. Kate is such a strange artist to me...even the stuff of hers that I don't like as well is still worth playing over and over again. I've been liking Lionheart a lot lately, too...although Hounds of Love is still the masterpiece.
Mariana-how are you finding Never For Ever?? Its got some good stuff on it.
Reuben
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:39:30 -0700
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Proselyting Joni
My nice assistant Brad, who moonlights in a law firm by day and is a Metal
rocker at night, has gotten more than a glimpse of my Joni jones as he has
cheerfully covered for me while I was missing in action during the April and
May Joni events. Brad is old enough to have known years of Joni but he never
chats about her with me. Yesterday it started - he tentatively asked me what
songs she is known for. O.K., I thought, I'm going to have to start out simple
here. I named "Both Sides Now" - blank look from Brad. "Big Yellow Taxi"? -
blank look again. "Woodstock"? - faint glimmer of recognition. I started
feeling that pang of aloneness that we all know so well. Feeling defeated I
said "well, you'd probably know her songs if you heard them." 30 minutes later
he says "Crosby, Stills & Nash wrote Woodstock." No, I say, it was Joni. Now
he's looking slightly intrigued. He says doesn't she do that song (he starts
singing "they paved paradise, put up a parking lot"?). I start telling him a
little more about all her marvelous talents. He does seem like he is trying to
understand and I'm feeling slightly heartened. Fast forward to this morning -
I spend two hours (!) answering his questions. When I get to the part about
Jaco and Wayne and the VG-8, Brad really comes alive and is sincerely wowed and
is wanting to hear some Joni real bad. So right now I'm at home taping him some
off DJRD, S&L, Mingus and a few of the new cuts. (And here goes another
afternoon of lost billings due to Joni! But I'm feeling quite fluffed out to
think I baited, hooked and reeled in a new convert in less than 24 hours!
Heehee.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:18:00 EDT
From: Tunajon@aol.com
Subject: BRUUUUUCE
Hi,
Bruce has been, and still is, one of my absolute favorite
guitarists,songwriters, and performers. It's a rare artist who has a catalog
unblemished by ANY overly inaccessable recordings (OK, start the flame
guns......such as 'chalk mark' , 'dog eat dog') - literally everything he's
done is great! As for reccommendations ( i own 18 cd's of his):
High Winds, White Sky IMHO the best work he's done
Bruce Cockburn(self titled)
Sunwheel Dance
Joy Will Find a Way
Salt, Sun, and Time
These represent some of his earlier, acoustic work, and these are the one's
I'm partial to. His later, electric work, is absolutely amazing, but these
are my favorites.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:29:06 -0400
From: Michael Yarbrough
Subject: NJC Reminders (NJC)
As a lover of NJC, I'm writing an oh-so-gentle reminder to label *all*
your posts that don't have Joni content NJC in the subject line.
If you're replying to a message, double-check the subject line before
you send it.
This includes music posts. There have been a number of posts
about musicians other than Joni today which I have found fascinating,
but not everyone has time to read them all. Please take the time to
label so our friends don't get too mad! :-)
Thanks!
- --Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:37:04 +0100
From: Rob Jordan
Subject: Re: little joni noises
At 02:43 28/08/98 EDT, IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote:
>I've always thought I hear the sound of a candle being blown out at the
end of
>"Down to You." Has anyone else ever noticed this?
Followed by the sound of one hand clapping, and a tree falling in the empty
forest :-)
Wow, Paul, I'm impressed! Got to go and listen.
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:27:27 +0100
From: Rob Jordan
Subject: Re: Synchroknickery and harmony
At 17:08 28/08/98 +-100, Hassan Zubairi wrote:
>Someone sent a post regarding Cotton Avenue. I had just played it today,
this
>morning, REALLY LOUD. It wasn't until I had read it in the digest that the
>images of "frog and dogs and night birds started singing a sweet country
>lullabye" came real to me .
And to unite this with the harmonies thread - don't the "sweet SWEET sweet
SWEET sweet country lullabies" put you in mind of a choir of the self-same
frogs and dogs and night birds.
np: DJRD again. It seems to be staging a lock-in inside my computer CD
player!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:20:06 -0600
From: Les Irvin
Subject: NJC - "I Have A Dream"
Joniphiles -
Today is the 35th anniversary of one of the greatest speeches ever given -
one that I can never listen to with a dry eye. I reproduce it here ...
just 'cause I wanna....
Thanks,
Les
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Delivered on the steps at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington D.C.
on August 28, 1963
"I Have A Dream", by The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand
signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great
beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the
flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long
night of captivity.
But one hundred years later, we must face the tragic fact that the Negro is
still not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still
sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of
discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island
of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred
years later, the Negro is still languishing in the corners of American
society and finds himself an exile in his own land. So we have come here
today to dramatize an appalling condition.
In a sense we have come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the
architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution
and the declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to
which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men
would be guaranteed the inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit
of happiness.
It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note
insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this
sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check which has
come back marked "insufficient funds." But we refuse to believe that the
bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are
insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. So we
have come to cash this check -- a check that will give us upon demand the
riches of freedom and the security of justice. We have also come to this
hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of now. This is no
time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing
drug of gradualism. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate
valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time
to open the doors of opportunity to all of God's children. Now is the time
to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock
of brotherhood.
It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment and
to underestimate the determination of the Negro. This sweltering summer of
the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an
invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an
end, but a beginning. Those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam
and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to
business as usual. There will be neither rest nor tranquility in America
until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt
will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of
justice emerges.
But there is something that I must say to my people who stand on the warm
threshold which leads into the palace of justice. In the process of gaining
our rightful place we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek
to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and
hatred.
We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and
discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into
physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of
meeting physical force with soul force. The marvelous new militancy which
has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to distrust of all white
people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here
today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny
and their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom. We cannot walk
alone.
And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall march ahead. We cannot
turn back. There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights,
"When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as our
bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels
of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long
as the Negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We
can never be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a
Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are
not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like
waters and righteousness like a mighty stream.
I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and
tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow cells. Some of you
have come from areas where your quest for freedom left you battered by the
storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You
have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the
faith that unearned suffering is redemptive.
Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to Georgia, go back to
Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing
that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in
the valley of despair.
I say to you today, my friends, that in spite of the difficulties and
frustrations of the moment, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply
rooted in the American dream.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true
meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men
are created equal."
I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former
slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together
at a table of brotherhood.
I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a desert state,
sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed
into an oasis of freedom and justice.
I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where
they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of
their character.
I have a dream today.
I have a dream that one day the state of Alabama, whose governor's lips are
presently dripping with the words of interposition and nullification, will
be transformed into a situation where little black boys and black girls will
be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls and walk
together as sisters and brothers.
I have a dream today.
I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and
mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the
crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be
revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.
This is our hope. This is the faith with which I return to the South. With
this faith we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of
hope. With this faith we will be able to transform the jangling discords of
our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith we will
be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to
jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be
free one day.
This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with a
new meaning, "My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I
sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim's pride, from every
mountainside, let freedom ring."
And if America is to be a great nation this must become true. So let freedom
ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from
the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening
Alleghenies of Pennsylvania!
Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado!
Let freedom ring from the curvaceous peaks of California!
But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia!
Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee!
Let freedom ring from every hill and every molehill of Mississippi. From
every mountainside, let freedom ring.
When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every
hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that
day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles,
Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words
of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty,
we are free at last!"
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They kill people who give hope in this culture."
Joni Mitchell
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V3 #326
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Siquomb, isn't she?