From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #317 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, August 25 1998 Volume 03 : Number 317 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: i'm new [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Annie Lennox/Diva (SJC) [FredNow@aol.com] TTT suggestions (probably too late) [Hassan Zubairi ] Re: JMDL Digest V3 #316 ["James A. Murray" ] Re: Annie Lennox/Diva (SJC) [Bill Dollinger ] Disneyland, the Garden, CNN and BOSTON! [M.Russell@iaea.org] 50+ tunings [Steve Dulson ] J Cards [Heather ] 50+ tunings [Steve Dulson ] Re: Annie Lennox/Diva (SJC) [RickieLee1@aol.com] Today in Joni History - August 24 [Today in Joni History ] Today in Joni History - August 25 [Today in Joni History ] JC: Garden page [Kate Tarasenko ] HEAR THE GARDEN?? [KerriLynn@aol.com] Re: TTT suggestions (probably too late) [Diana Duncan ] Re: 50+ tunings [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Today in Joni History - August 25 [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Joni Mitchell "Night Ride Home" vinyl [sherrie.good@chronicle.com] Important updates and art show, Joni Content [Les Irvin ] Re: Today in Joni History - August 25 ["Deb Messling" ] Songbooks [MDESTE1@aol.com] RE: 50+ tunings, about tuning systems, njc [trxschwa ] RE: 50+ tunings (piano, njc) [trxschwa ] Re: Woodstock Theme Park [Sue ] The Chili Review Coming Soon! [Chilihead2@aol.com] Re: Woodstock Theme Park [Heather ] Re: Woodstock Theme Park [Phyliss Ward ] Re: Woodstock Theme Park [Marsha ] Fwd: 50+ tunings (piano, njc) [Wolfebite@aol.com] Re: Fwd: 50+ tunings (piano, njc) [Marsha ] Re: Woodstock Theme Park [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Did I really hear that right? [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Woodstock Theme Park ["Kakki" ] RE: 50+ tunings, about tuning systems, njc [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Did I really hear that right? [Helen Gill ] Re: Woodstock Theme Park [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Did I really hear that right? [TerryM2442@aol.com] Hey Wally [Michael Paz ] VG-8 For Sail....FYI [Michael Paz ] re: tape tree 8 [some millers ] Re: about tuning systems (NJC) [Bolvangar@aol.com] Re: tape tree 8 [Marsha ] it's me cathy i've come home [Marilune@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 02:59:31 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: i'm new In a message dated 8/24/98 2:48:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, h.gill@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au writes: << I'm in a scungy computer room at University so there's never any music on here so I guess for me it should be Nothing Playing. I think we should have a new one which is Not Playing....... >> or NPIMH for Now Playing In My Head? Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 03:53:44 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Annie Lennox/Diva (SJC) Listening again recently to one of my favorite records, Diva, by Annie Lennox, I was once again struck by not only its depth and beauty, but the degree of Joni influence. Some songs overtly and some not so, but one could view this record as being something Joni might have done if she was way into Aretha Franklin and dance music. Annie even unabashedly references Joni's trademark multi-tracked rhythmic "doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo" choruses on one tune; there are traces of Joni all over the album. I love this record, and I still remember hearing the first tune "Why" for the first time on Saturday Night Live ... Annie was killin' ... I can still see her give that little salute on the line "Can't you see that this boat is sinking?" ... gave me chills. That tune chokes me up every time ... "Do you know how I feel? 'Cause I don't think you know how I feel?" - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:00:03 +-100 From: Hassan Zubairi Subject: TTT suggestions (probably too late) Hello, Having received a nice copy of Jeff Buckley's (sketches for) My Sweetheart The Drunk, I was nicely surprised to find that it contained extra multimedia. When I put it in my cd rom at work, out came these collages from JB's notepad among other things. (I had to download QuicktimeMovies first but that didn't take too long). Maybe Joni could put out a later pressing of TTT with an interactive section including the paintings she has done over the past few years. Maybe this could be on a later single.... Wally? It would give those of us that haven't seen much of JOni's work since her Diaries of a Decade exhib in London in '90, a chance of great images. Just a suggestion, I hope that it gets considered. Much Joni JamieJake ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:23:01 +-100 From: Hassan Zubairi Subject: David Gray in concert (no real JC) Hello London JMDLer's. Just a quickie to say that David Gray is playing at Camden's Dingwall's supporting Maria McKee (bleurrgh - no offence, I don't really like her, far too surface IMHO). I discovered my love for David Gray when he was unsigned but Jools Holland felt him important enough to feature in his programme (Later, with Joos Holland). He's an acoustic guitarist who sings from his soul. He's Welsh and has written some of the most profound songs I have heard coming from a bloke since Dylan (IMHO) with a sincerity and gravitas of a Greek Tragedian. He's playing in her support on the 16th of September. Our American cousins may know of him as he supported (oh God, I've forgotten but they sing Paranoid Android, Karma Police. It will come to me soon.) Not much Joni JamieJake ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:03:06 -0700 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Pat Metheny/Brian Blade: (JC by association only) Any Bay Area JMDL'ers interested in catching the Pat Metheny/Brian Blade gig with me on 9/20 or 9/21, (I think), at Yoshi's in Oakland, (I know)? Could be fun. MG ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:08:14 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: David Gray in concert (no real JC) JamieJake wrote: <<>> That would be Radiohead. From _OK Computer_, an album everyone should own. - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:49:37 +-100 From: Hassan Zubairi Subject: Did I really hear that right? Hello again Following SansSoucie's post (welcome home Sans Soucie), I remember the first time I heard All I Want. I used to hear instead of I want to be the one that you want to see I want to knit you a sweater I heard I want to be the one that you want to see On an itchy sweater And used to think That's right, sometimes I do think I see myself in an itchy sweater (or more convolutedly, when I wear certain items, it does remind me of certain people or incidents in my life that for me made a perfect example of that person. God, how right Joni is) With hindsight I realise that this assessment of this lyric although wrong, is so particular that I like it. That the more sweet and domestic, almost motherly, I want to knit you a sweater, made sense and is just simplicity in feeling. Nothing convoluted. My mother used to think that, in Just Like This Train, She found her self-deceit, instead of an empty seat. My, how we take ourselves seriously. A long post. But started off with rubber beans. BTW Sans Soucie, any relation to the Burmese Aung-San Soo Kyi? ;-D (prom Aung San Soo Chee) Much Joni. JamieJake from London ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:10:54 -0700 From: "James A. Murray" Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V3 #316 >Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:29:28 +0100 >From: catman >Subject: NJC:HAAGEN-DAZS CASUALTY > >On Friday night, I was swinging a carrier bag about. The next thing I >knew, John had collapsed to the floor. I sat him up and saw a huge black >lump on his head. I was very frightened and confused cos I didn't know >what had happened. It seems the carrier broke at the bottom and the >Haagen-Dazs(beligian choc) had come flying out and hit him straight in >the forehead. So we spent the next few hours in the accident and >emergency of the local hospital. He is alright tho i think getting >annoyed that I keep asking him if he is alright evry 5 mins. The >casualty nurse could barley contain her laughter. Whilst I can see the >funny side, I don't feel it yet. I came so close to killing him it is >still frightening. Imagine, 6ft 1" and felled by a pot of ice cream. >I didn't eat the Haagen-Dazs. > >colin I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Glad he is ok. jimbo ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:19:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Annie Lennox/Diva (SJC) The Eurthymics tune "There Must Be An Angel Playing With My Heart" always reminded me of early Joni, with a vocal which would have fit in on Clouds. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:58:43 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Disneyland, the Garden, CNN and BOSTON! Well, I've been away for three weeks - a holiday I booked back in February which included traveling to Disneyland Paris with my kids on the day of Joni's Garden performance. I sure hope there is some truth to the rumor of an Autumn world tour??? Did I really see that? I haven't had time to read through more than a couple of the digests, so haven't yet come across all of the details on this rumor. Well, yesterday evening I just happened to turn on CNN as Showbiz Today was starting and who did I immediately see? I couldn't believe my eyes, so I dived for an empty tape and jammed it into the recorder. Not including the intro section, which I didn't get and I'm not even sure what she was playing because I was so stunned and focused on making sure the recorder was going to work right, there were three too-short clips of her doing probably only 1/2 of a verse from No Apologies, less than 1/2 of a verse of Woodstock and at the very end, just her playing guitar on I don't know what song. There were several clips of the audience which I hope to scan later for some familiar faces. Talk about coincidence, though! That I should turn on CNN right then and that I didn't change the channel before I realized what was about to happen. At least I now know what she looked like that day and got an idea of what she might have sounded like. Also I have to say that I am very grateful to all the attendees who reported on the event on Wally's page and I'm hoping some kind of recording will become available at some point. I'm getting psyched up for Ashara's Jonifest in Boston and can hardly believe it's only 12 days away! I've been playing my guitar like someone possessed for the last couple of months in preparation. I have just been getting through the last of my accumulated personal email and I found this part of a message from Chuck E., who is in charge of music and sound: <>>No one has offered to run any formal workshops (OK let's all <>>capo up to the third fret and learn the cord shapes for Night <>>Ride Home) but I could see these developing. so I'm hereby formally offering to run one or more formal or informal guitar workshops for anyone who might be interested, and I think it would be really fun to have some as-many-guitars-as-possible sing-a-long play-a-long sessions. I'm writing in the hopes of encouraging more of you to attend. There's going to be a New England style BBQ, Chuck's got all kinds of instruments - percussion, keyboards, dulcimer. It's going to be a lot of fun!!! So sign up now!!!! Marian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:57:03 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: 50+ tunings Mark wrote: >I've thought about this too. Can you alternately tune a violin? A bass? Any >other stringed instrument? You remember Joni's comments on the Joni/James Taylor concert tape? "This is a mountain dulcimer...you can tune it any way you want, just like a guitar, or a piano..." I've always loved the thought of Joni putting her piano into some alternate tuning.... ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:40:10 -0400 From: Heather Subject: J Cards http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/3761/tapelabel.html?maker Hi everyone! Found this site to make J-Cards one at a time for PC users. I hope the above address works for you. It's simple and it works. Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:57:03 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: 50+ tunings Mark wrote: >I've thought about this too. Can you alternately tune a violin? A bass? Any >other stringed instrument? You remember Joni's comments on the Joni/James Taylor concert tape? "This is a mountain dulcimer...you can tune it any way you want, just like a guitar, or a piano..." I've always loved the thought of Joni putting her piano into some alternate tuning.... ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:55:37 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: Annie Lennox/Diva (SJC) definitely a great album fred! i was a little disappointed that the follow up was covers only (medusa, by the way) and did not have any more original stuff as with diva. it has been awhile too. she ought to be due for a new release soon. something to look forward to. one of the great voices in pop/rock/whatever. just a great voice, no matter what the genre...thanks for the reminder! i may need to go dig it out and give it a listen. peace! ric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:03:01 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - August 24 1996: Today's issue of Billboard Magazine features an article on the upcoming Hits and Misses albums. An excerpt: "For years, people have been recommending or pushing me toward releasing a hits album, but in my case, there weren't enough hits technically to fill an album - by that, I mean a single that rides the chart well up into the small numbers," says Mitchell. "I also felt like [a greatest-hits package] would kill my catalog. The only reason I'm doing the hits is to show that I didn't die after 1973." Full article: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/revhmbil.htm - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:30:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - August 25 1969: Joni and Crosby, Stills, and Nash begin a seven-night engagement at the Greek Theater in Los Angeles. Joni is the opening act. Read a review of the first night at: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/latimes690826.htm 1979: Joni performs at Forest Hills in New York "Buoyed by a strong band, and in very good voice, Joni Mitchell was in complete command in the open air setting of Forest Hills Tennis Stadium on this serene mid-summer's night. Her singing was confident and unforced. The band followed her leadership flawlessly - even the obligatory solos of Pat Metheny, Jaco Pastorius and Michael Brecker seemed to complement the musical flow. And the highly enthusiastic audience was swept along, so much so that the usual shouted suggestions were kept to a minimum." From a review by David Rind at: http://www.jonimitchell.com/NYC79.html - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:43:10 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: JC: Garden page Wowie-zowie! What an awesome page, guys! (I never asked, but how DID you sneak in that wonderful digital camera????) Thanks to Les and Mendi and Mary and Joe for making the Garden live on - -- what a wonderful thing to be able to have those images, and especially the one of Mendi, Brian and Suze -- WE WERE THERE!!! xoxo Kate in CO ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:38:18 EDT From: KerriLynn@aol.com Subject: HEAR THE GARDEN?? HI, was just wondering if anyone knew if there was a place on the web where you could hear joni's performance at the garden..... Any info would be greatly apprieciated, you can email me privately if you like, thank you, kerri ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:30:16 -0500 From: Diana Duncan Subject: Re: TTT suggestions (probably too late) At 02:00 PM 8/24/1998 +-100, Hassan Zubairi wrote: >Having received a nice copy of Jeff Buckley's (sketches for) My Sweetheart The Drunk, I was nicely surprised to find that it contained extra multimedia. When I put it in my cd rom at work, out came these collages from JB's notepad among other things. (I had to download QuicktimeMovies first but that didn't I've started putting all my new CD's in the computer to see what's on them. I heard that Peter Gabreal (sp?) is putting a game on his next one. Quite a few have lots of fun stuff to look at. I doubt if Joni has put anything on TTT but you never know. The art work is a great idea but who knows how long it will be for the next one. The medium might be changed by then.. So much new stuff out like DVD and what's with the new little disks that record music? Diana, (the old biddy that is *trying* to keep up with new tech. ) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:55:08 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: 50+ tunings I don't think you can alternately tune a piano-since the keys are on a chromatic scale (That is, as you go up the keys the note after it is higher (B C C# D...). Tuning a piano is basically setting the piano in a correct note. Is that making sense? If you try to alternately tune a piano, you'd probably just get an out of tune flat or sharp. Take a listen to Last Dance on Sarah McLachlan's Surfacing CD or maybe on Paprika Plains. Steve wrote in reply to me: >Mark wrote: > >>I've thought about this too. Can you alternately tune a violin? A bass? Any >>other stringed instrument? > >You remember Joni's comments on the Joni/James Taylor concert tape? > >"This is a mountain dulcimer...you can tune it any way you want, >just like a guitar, or a piano..." > >I've always loved the thought of Joni putting her piano into some >alternate tuning.... > > >############################################################## >Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com >"The Tinker's Own" >http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html >"Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" >http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ > _____________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |___________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 21:11:09 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - August 25 And I was *there* and totally mesmerized. This would be a great venue for Joni, and a convenient walking distance for me :-) Come BACK, Joni!!!!!!! -Kenny On 8/24/98 Today in Joni History wrote: 1979: Joni performs at Forest Hills in New York "Buoyed by a strong band, and in very good voice, Joni Mitchell was in complete command in the open air setting of Forest Hills Tennis Stadium on this serene mid-summer's night. Her singing was confident and unforced. The band followed her leadership flawlessly - even the obligatory solos of Pat Metheny, Jaco Pastorius and Michael Brecker seemed to complement the musical flow. And the highly enthusiastic audience was swept along, so much so that the usual shouted suggestions were kept to a minimum." From a review by David Rind at: http://www.jonimitchell.com/NYC79.html -------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:11:51 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: Joni Mitchell "Night Ride Home" vinyl Just got this message from my cool coworker, Scott. Hope someone in the Portland area can snap up this bargain. Sherrie Joni Mitchell "Night Ride Home" vinyl in mint condition for $3 or $4 bucks at Everyday Music 1931 NE Sandy Blvd. Portland, OR In the "New Arrivals" bin as of Saturday August 15th. Now probably just filed under Joni Mitchell, since the "New Arrivals" bin only holds records for one week. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:21:45 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Important updates and art show, Joni Content From: "Kurt Joachim von Behrmann" Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:25:27 -0700 August 24, 1998 I would like to share this news with the group since I feel that everyone here has in some way supported my work as an artist. So I want to thank everyone who has helped me with my art on the list. Now, here is the news. I submitted several pieces for an art exhibition to take place in Tucson, Arizona. One of the works was inspired by the singer "Seal" and includes text which was inspired by such sources as Suzanne Vega and the cover of Joni Mitchell's first album, "Joni Mitchell." There is text, hands images, and such. In addition to this work, another drawing "der Kuss" is also featured. The works not only were accepted into the show, they earned me a show award and a show next year! So I wanted to share this information with you. The show, titled "Images of Pima County and Tucson" will be up next month. If you would like press information, please contact me. I am working on scanning the drawing for my web site, but it is large and it may take some time getting it up and running. Also, I have my ATT and T site up on the net with a revised Joni Mitchell segment. Thank you, and email should you have any questions. Kurt Joachim von Behrmann P.O. Box 3142, Scottsdale, AZ 85271 Email: joachim7@worldnet.att.net alt email one: 7joachim@netscape.net alt email two: behrmann@hotmail.com Web Sites: http://home.att.net/~joachim7 (The Main Site) http://members.tripod.com/~vonbehrmann/index.html http://users.jomax.net/joachim ( still up ) http://member.xoom.com/behrmann ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:09:11 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - August 25 Me too, Kenny. Remember when she sang "Amelia?" The whole damn stadium was dead silent except for the occasional awestock gasp. > And I was *there* and totally mesmerized. > > 1979: Joni performs at Forest Hills in New York > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:24:15 -0400 From: "Claud SansSoucie" Subject: Re: Did I really hear that right? Funny stuff - thanks for sharing. I can relate to the itchy sweater! Also, I'm glad to see that SanSoucie has inspired so much pondering! Claud >I want to be the one that you want to see >On an itchy sweater > >And used to think > >That's right, sometimes I do think I see myself in an itchy sweater (or more convolutedly, when I wear certain items, it does remind me of certain people or incidents in my life that for me made a perfect example of that person. God, how right Joni is) > >With hindsight I realise that this assessment of this lyric although wrong, is so particular that I like it. >Much Joni. > >JamieJake >from London ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 98 23:28:17 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Amelia live (was Today in JH - 8/25) yes, Deb, she did Amelia especially well in Forest Hills! Several listers who were at the '79 tour -- in other cities as well -- have also commented that it was her best performance of Amelia. I think its beauty and solemness is well captured and preserved on the Shadows & Light video as well... Just wish she was more into earth tones back then, those turquiouse coulottes really grate on me when I watch it now :-) -Kenny On 8/24/98 "Deb Messling" wrote: Me too, Kenny. Remember when she sang "Amelia?" The whole damn stadium was dead silent except for the occasional awestock gasp. > Kenny wrote: > And I was *there* and totally mesmerized. > > 1979: Joni performs at Forest Hills in New York ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:47:59 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Woodstock Theme Park There was an article in the NY TIMES Sunday about "The Garden" event in the Business section. I accidentally threw it away, but if I recall correctly, (someone help me here,) there was something mentioned about The Garden losing money due to ticket sales...however plans are being made to make Woodstock a tourist event in the way of a theme park. For Pete's sake, what a sacrilege! Isn't this whole concept the antithesis of the Garden message? Thereis such a place called "Dollywood," but that's so Dollyish. Can you imagine the theme names of the Woodstock genre rides: "The Riding ShotGun" rollercoaster. "The Carrouselof Time" merry-go-round. "The Cheering Fish" boat pond. Bill Dollinger, Marsha, Sue Cameron, Heather, help me out here.........This could be fun. -JulieZW ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:42:39 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Songbooks I went into a local acoustic guitar store and found three Joni Songbooks. Turbulent Indigo, Misses, and a compilation which covers her first three albums and more. There were some left for anyone who is interested. marcel Deste ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:03:02 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: 50+ tunings, about tuning systems, njc hey, mark, you wrote, I don't think you can alternately tune a piano-since the keys are on a chromatic scale (That is, as you go up the keys the note after it is higher (B C C# D...). Tuning a piano is basically setting the piano in a correct note. that's not quite true, because pianos are tuned very differently than they were a couple of centuries ago, and very different than harpsichords were in the 18th century. since a lot of the major piano repertory was written for a differently tuned harpsichord, we're not really hearing what people like js bach composed for the keyboard. i'm not a musician, but i've read a lot about this in columns by kyle gann, new music advocate writer for the village voice, and also from the liner notes from 'the harp of new albion' a terrific double cd of solo piano improvisations by terry riley. basically, western pianos are usually tuned in a system called 'equal temperament' in which the distance between the twelve tones of the scale is exactly the same. this makes it easy to transpose music between keys, but makes certain intervals, in most keys, sound really sour. this was a compromise. i guess the most common tuning system before equal temperament was 'well temperament' (or 'just intonation'. i haven't figured out the difference, from my reading.) i always thought 'the well-tempered clavier' was a cutesy name for one of bach's greatest achievements, but it's really just technical: a set of pieces for keyboard in a tuning system that was being eclipsed. the title is probably imperfectly translated from the german, as well. a search on 'just intonation' (which seems to be synonomous with 'well temperamant') brought up kyle gann's web page, which is intensely about tunings. http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/histune.html. this paragraph, from his page, refers to a lot of the music i've been listening to o'er the years of my new york musical education. i'm just a huge partch, harrison, riley, oliveiros, branca fan. >Many recent composers have come to feel that the compromise of equal temperament was a mistake. They feel that the musical logic of moving from any key to any other key became a priority at the expense of music's sonic sensuousness. Harry Partch was the first such composer. He defined his own scale with 43 pitches to the octave, and invented his own instruments to play it. Lou Harrison was the next major figure to abandon equal temperament; he has used many tunings taken from Indonesian gamelans, and also, in his Piano Concerto, returned to an almost-pure tuning called Kirnberger II from the 18th century. Other composers to work in pure tuning (just intonation) include Partch's protege Ben Johnston (my teacher), La Monte Young, Terry Riley, Pauline Oliveros, James Tenney, Rhys Chatham, Glenn Branca (in his middle symphonies, Nos. 3, 4, and 5), Ben Neill, Dean Drummond, and myself (Kyle Gann). patrick, preparing to didact in a separate post about prepared piano, another tuning system. np - riley - harp of new albion ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:18:50 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: 50+ tunings (piano, njc) I don't think you can alternately tune a piano-since the keys are on a chromatic scale (That is, as you go up the keys the note after it is higher (B C C# D...). Tuning a piano is basically setting the piano in a correct note. teehee... there's also 'prepared piano'. invented by john cage. this involves sticking things in the strings of the piano, to purposefully untune individual ivories. any recording of 'sonatas and interludes', one of cage's more composed pieces, (and brilliant) will give you an idea. also, 'bells for her', tori. patrick np = riley - the harp of new albion ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:32:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Subject: Re: Woodstock Theme Park Julie, This is the dawning of the age of consumerism....guess it couldn't be helped. I heard that the owner was going to have eight to ten shows there next year, but nothing of an amusement park. This is truly horrid, and the whole Woodstock aura would be lost. Don't it always seem to go.... Sorry, not much help tonight! >Bill Dollinger, Marsha, Sue Cameron, Heather, help me out here.........This >could be fun. > Sue Cameron (Suze) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:33:01 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: The Chili Review Coming Soon! Hi All! I have almost finished my "article" of the days events in the Garden. I am a great believer in free speech and the First Amendment, but all this talk of Clinton seems like weeds in the garden after such a wonderful week. In any event, stay tuned..... - -(Chili)Bri ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:33:10 -0400 From: Heather Subject: Re: Woodstock Theme Park At 07:47 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >There was an article in the NY TIMES Sunday about "The Garden" event in the >Business section. I accidentally threw it away, but if I recall correctly, >(someone help me here,) there was something mentioned about The Garden >losing money due to ticket sales...however plans are being made to make >Woodstock a tourist event in the way of a theme park. For Pete's sake, >what a sacrilege! Isn't this whole concept >the antithesis of the Garden message? Thereis such a place called >"Dollywood," but that's so Dollyish. >Can you imagine the theme names of the Woodstock genre rides: "The Riding >ShotGun" rollercoaster. "The Carrouselof Time" merry-go-round. "The >Cheering Fish" boat pond. >Bill Dollinger, Marsha, Sue Cameron, Heather, help me out here.........This >could be fun. > How 'bout the Black Magic Woman House of Horrors! Oh let's not go there...... I think this is a jerky idea. What's that guys name Alan Gerry? I think he's trying to make a moutain out of a mole hill (or hillside in Bethel NY :-) Heather ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:43:25 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Woodstock Theme Park I think I remember hearing that the intention is to have something for the Woodstock generation similar to what Branson, Mossouri is for Country music fans. Sue wrote: > Julie, > > This is the dawning of the age of consumerism....guess it couldn't be > helped. I heard that the owner was going to have eight to ten shows there > next year, but nothing of an amusement park. This is truly horrid, and the > whole Woodstock aura would be lost. Don't it always seem to go.... > > Sorry, not much help tonight! > > >Bill Dollinger, Marsha, Sue Cameron, Heather, help me out here.........This > >could be fun. > > > > Sue Cameron (Suze) - -- Phyliss pward@lightspeed.net http://www.bodywise.com/consultants/bpward ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:47:38 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Re: Woodstock Theme Park Julie Z. Webb wrote: > Can you imagine the theme names of the Woodstock genre rides: "The Riding > ShotGun" rollercoaster. "The Carrouselof Time" merry-go-round. "The > Cheering Fish" boat pond. > Bill Dollinger, Marsha, Sue Cameron, Heather, help me out here.........This > could be fun. The "Little Green" Monster Truck Kiddie Ride "Black Crow" Attack Simulation (a la Hitchcock's "The Birds") "For Free" Gate Crashing Game "Blue Boy" oxygen breathing bar and boutique water "Big Yellow Taxi" fright ride simulator "Circle Game" ring toss "Let the Wind Carry Me" parachute ride "You Turn Me On I'm a Radio" Karaoke Bar "Help Me" First Aid Station "Car On a Hill" towing service for your vehicle stuck in the Woodstock mud "Urge for Going" porta-potties "I Don't Know Where I Stand" Lost and found booth and "Raised on Robbery" admission/tickets booth Next... Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:01:44 EDT From: Wolfebite@aol.com Subject: Fwd: 50+ tunings (piano, njc) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_904006905_boundary Content-ID: <0_904006905@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-08-24 20:24:37 EDT, trxschwa@bway.net writes: << there's also 'prepared piano'. invented by john cage. this involves sticking things in the strings of the piano, to purposefully untune individual ivories. >> also- stephen scott's work with prepare piano is worth a listen. 'Minerva's web/the tears of niobe' & 'vikings of the sunrise', both on new albion are great. played by the Colorado College new Music Ensemble, comprised of up to 10 players around a single grand- they pluck, thump, hammer & bow across the wires on the inside of the piano- and attach objects to the wires to give various buzzing and dampening effects. It's very soft subtle sounds they produce- and a real treat to see live- with all the players moving in and around the piano in constant movement- gorgeous choreography in its own right. doug - --part0_904006905_boundary Content-ID: <0_904006905@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (rly-zb03.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.3]) by air-zb05.mail.aol.com (v49.4) with SMTP; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:24:36 -0400 Received: from mermaid.shore.net (mermaid.shore.net [207.244.124.6]) by rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id UAA06963; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] by mermaid.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0zB6uC-0003xr-00; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:24:13 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id UAA05194; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.10); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:23:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id UAA05185 for joni-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nico.bway.net (root@nico.bway.net [205.198.116.1]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id UAA05180 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pl (dial-rose-42.bway.net [209.73.228.66]) by nico.bway.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA16909; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:19:04 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDCF9C.7054DEE0.trxschwa@bway.net> From: trxschwa To: "'Mark Domyancich'" , Steve Dulson Cc: "joni@smoe.org" Subject: RE: 50+ tunings (piano, njc) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:18:50 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: trxschwa Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I don't think you can alternately tune a piano-since the keys are on a chromatic scale (That is, as you go up the keys the note after it is higher (B C C# D...). Tuning a piano is basically setting the piano in a correct note. teehee... there's also 'prepared piano'. invented by john cage. this involves sticking things in the strings of the piano, to purposefully untune individual ivories. any recording of 'sonatas and interludes', one of cage's more composed pieces, (and brilliant) will give you an idea. also, 'bells for her', tori. patrick np = riley - the harp of new albion - --part0_904006905_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:04:14 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Re: Fwd: 50+ tunings (piano, njc) Wolfebite@aol.com wrote: > played by the Colorado College new Music Ensemble, comprised of up to > 10 players around a single grand- they pluck, thump, hammer & bow across the > wires on the inside of the piano- and attach objects to the wires to give > various buzzing and dampening effects. It's very soft subtle sounds they > produce- and a real treat to see live- with all the players moving in and > around the piano in constant movement- gorgeous choreography in its own right. As kids my brother and I would do the same... My favorite sound was made with a giant pencil erasure end, snapping it down on the shortest strings staccato style, while my brother held down the sustain pedal... always while the 'rents were away. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:19:22 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Woodstock Theme Park Damn! I am amazed at the creativity of this list! Long Black Veil/Cold Blue Steel-morgue Blue Motel Room-crack house Mark, wishing he could thought of ""Car On a Hill" towing service for your vehicle stuck in the Woodstock mud" _____________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |___________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:38:48 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Did I really hear that right? In a message dated 8/24/98 7:26:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dvsclaud@worldnet.att.net writes: << Funny stuff - thanks for sharing. I can relate to the itchy sweater! Also, I'm glad to see that SanSoucie has inspired so much pondering! Claud >I want to be the one that you want to see >On an itchy sweater >And used to think >That's right, sometimes I do think I see myself in an itchy sweater >> So many strange Mondegreens being reported, new ones all the time; despite the fact that Joni has always had the lyrics printed on the album or CD cover. Though I suppose some Mondegreens or mistakes have formed in my mind over the many years I've been listening to Joni, the first thing I always did when I got a new album of hers was sit down and listen to it while reading along. We've had the discussion before about who are the words people and who are the words people, but "rubber beans"? That's a winner ;>) Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:34:08 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Woodstock Theme Park Julie Z. Webb wrote: > Can you imagine the theme names of the Woodstock genre rides: "The Riding > ShotGun" rollercoaster. "The Carrouselof Time" merry-go-round. "The > Cheering Fish" boat pond. > Bill Dollinger, Marsha, Sue Cameron, Heather, help me out here.........This > could be fun. Sweet Sucker Dance Hall Strange Boy Skateboard Track Dry Cleaner From Des Moines Windfall Slots Charlie's Pork Pie Hats Off Night Backstreet Motel The Three Great Stimulants Coffee House Dog Eat Dog Frankfurter Stand Annie's Brownie Stand Rose's Tarot Readings Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:59:01 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: 50+ tunings, about tuning systems, njc Patrick wrote: <<>> From _It Crawled from the South_, Marcus Gray's exhaustive book on R.E.M.: "Peter [Buck]'s listening habits were eclectic: 'I listened to everything on the radio: black stations, blues, folk, blue grass.' Also in 1971 the family made a trip back to California to visit Peter's grandparents outin the Mojave Desert. While there, he watched a PBS TV special on the music of the eccentric and innovative Harry Partch. Partch--who died in 1974, but whose influence is clear in the _Swordfishtrombones_-period work of Tom Waits--wrote his own music to the rules of his own 43-note musical scale and played it on a bewildering array of bizarre custom-built instruments. 'The next week, I bought the three-album set of Partch on Columbia, _Delusion of the Fury_. I was hooked.'" And a description of "Underneath the Bunker" from R.E.M.'s _Lifes Rich Pageant_: "Inspired by a drunken visit to a Greek restaurant in a break from the _Fables_ session in London. This re-recording also shows the influence of _Swordfishtrombones_-era Tom Waits, who was in turn influenced by Peter's beloved Harry Partch..." - --Michael NP: Patti Smith in Camden, NJ, 9/27/97 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:05:44 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Woodstock Theme Park (NJC) <<>> The *intention* is to make a profit. The *method* is by providing a Branson equivalent for the Woodstock generation. Just a not-so-subtle clarification... - --Michael NP: still Patti ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:25:42 +1000 (EST) From: Helen Gill Subject: Re: Did I really hear that right? On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Hassan Zubairi wrote: > My mother used to think that, in Just Like This Train, > > She found her self-deceit, > > instead of > > an empty seat. Hey, up until about ten seconds ago i thought it was self-defeat! Oh god i feel so silly! Getting back onto the rubber beans though (much more important) I used to think in "The Gallery" she was painted "in icen greens and aubergenes..." ..and naked in the roses. I now picture Joni posing for a portrait flung glamorously amongst frozen vegetable and eggplants. hmmm. Helen. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:48:45 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Re: Woodstock Theme Park For the Woodstock amusements: Kakki wrote: > Sweet Sucker Dance Hall > Strange Boy Skateboard Track and let's not forget "Passion Play" adult motel on the perimeter of the park Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:12:58 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Woodstock Theme Park In a message dated 8/24/98 9:40:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, docnurse@VoyagerOnline.net writes: << "Urge for Going" porta-potties >> Oh Marsha, You are, gooooood! Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:24:11 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Did I really hear that right? In a message dated 8/24/98 10:34:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << Though I suppose some Mondegreens or mistakes have formed in my mind over the many years I've been listening to Joni, the first thing I always did when I got a new album of hers was sit down and listen to it while reading along. >> Yea, but Paul..some of us ran to our guitars to learn the songs first! Here we go again, the lyric lovers and the melody mavens- Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:37:32 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Hey Wally Hey Wally- After seeing the VG-8 thread started up again, I was thinking you might be interested in putting some "more" info on your web page about the device. I own one myself and have alot of color pictures from the brochure and tons of info in the manual. There are only a couple of other people I know of on the list that own the VG-8 and who have a good handle on the operation of it. Who knows maybe we can get a VG-8 club going. I have been doing alot of programming on mine lately and thanks to all those wonderful students of the guitar who have brought us the tunings and tablature, I am learning more Joni songs with the alternate tunings instead of the lazy way in regular tuning. Maybe Roland would be interested in sponsoring your page and another link would be good to lead people to Joni. Anyways let me know if you are interested and I would be happy to work with you on this. Peace and love, Michael NP-Love Puts On A New Face ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:01:19 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: VG-8 For Sail....FYI Hello List-- I found the following on the Digital Guitar List and thought some of you might be interested. For your further info the VG-8 US list price is $2,995. Dealer cost on the unit is $1,797.00. The expanded version software is worth about $125. and gives you more Virtual sounds (esp. acoustic guitar and 12 string sounds). Obviously this guy is selling his guitar too, which would make it very expensive,BUT you can get a GK2a pick up and put it on your own guitar (strat, paul, acoustic, etc.) I am not sure of the price of the pick up, but they were about $199. retail so you can probably do very well here. I made the guy an offer to trade (yea I know I already have one, but hey I could be in Quadraphonic sound),but by the sound of his letter, he's looking for $$. Anyway, maybe someone is interested. Best wishes, Michael From: JohnnySync@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 23:21:02 EDT Subject: VG-8 for sale I have an expanded Roland VG-8 for sale. Asking $1,100.00 I also have a wonderful Tom Anderson strat with a GK2a pickup installed. It is Purple with Mother of pearl pickguard, silver hardware, Rosewood neck and an ash body, blocked Floyd with locking nut, switcheroo. This is a $2,200.00 Guitar. I am asking $1,500.00 with the pickup installed. This is an amazing instrument. Must sell. Best John Email at Johnnysync@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:06:25 -0400 (EDT) From: some millers Subject: re: tape tree 8 Here's hoping you're saying what I think your're saying! A friend (who shall remain nameless) managed to get his digital mini disc recording set-up past the food and water police and actually captured our beloved JM's performance from a prime perch near the sound tent. However, when he went for a blank disc during Pete Townsend's set, he accidently inserted ... you guessed it... it's just too sad for words. :( Needless to say, I'd be thrilled to hear that amazing performance again, and again, and again, ... still savoring saturday (and craving another fix), Paul Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 17:47:10 EDT From: Wolfebite@aol.com Subject: TAPE TREE 8 i recall someone making a mention in passing to a particular individual who was noticeably and properly silent during the show- nez pas? all motion in favor of tape tree #8- a day in the garden say "EYE" wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more say no more wolfie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:20:58 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: about tuning systems (NJC) Patrick L. wrote: <> My understanding is, actually, it is the equal-tempered system in which a certain interval sounds the same no matter what key it is in -- that's the whole idea of the system. It is the older tuning systems in which certain intervals in certain keys sound really sour, but certain keys are much purer in tuning than their counterparts on the modern piano. (Certain intervals on the modern piano do sound really sour as compared to perfect intonation -- I understand that thirds, especially minor thirds, are the most off. But they are equally sour in all keys.) <> I believe that well-temperament is a *synonym* for equal-temperament, and the opposite of just intonation. That's why Bach's WTC, which is written for the *new* tuning system (not the one being eclipsed), has a prelude and fugue in the major and minor keys on each of the twelve degrees of the chromatic scale: to demonstrate that all keys are equally practicable -- equally in tune, or equally out of tune if you hear it that way -- which they were not under the older tuning system(s). In the Baroque and earlier, weird keys found in the WTC such as E-flat minor or G-sharp minor are very unusual. Hope this makes sense. - --David NP: JPP, _Kaustinen Rhapsody_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:21:21 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Re: tape tree 8 some millers wrote: > Here's hoping you're saying what I think your're saying! A friend (who > shall remain nameless) managed to get his digital mini disc recording set-up > past the food and water police and actually captured our beloved JM's > performance from a prime perch near the sound tent. However, when he went > for a blank disc during Pete Townsend's set, he accidently inserted ... you > guessed it... it's just too sad for words. Ugh... double ugh... Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:28:12 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: it's me cathy i've come home okay, so my name isn't cathy, but i love Kate Bush so i promised myself i would make that my title line when i posted again. but anyways: hi all! i'm back from mexico. it's weird to be home. i wish i wanted to see my parents and sister more than i do. just one more thing to be guilty about i suppose. it's always weird because i have nothing to do really. aol's being stupid and the net isn't working which takes all the fun out of it. i swear i'm switching to earthlink. i'm using the phone non-stop, catching up with all my friends. last night i was on the phone until 2 am with binky. that always happens when i'm on the phone with her. our conversations last hours. i'm playing phone tag with jenn and mally so we can get together for our annual disneyland trip before school starts. we always have great fun. i have two weeks before i'm launched into 11th grade (which means the SAT, super hard classes, college visits, and the whole bit) and i'm going to do everything i can. MARIANA'S REALLY BIG ANNOUNCEMENT SO EVERYONE BETTER PAY ATTENTION YEAH THAT MEANS YOU: Elliott Smith's new album comes out tommorow. It's called XO and the L.A. times gave it a great review. Mummy's taking me to the record store tommorow for my birthday present. I've made my list of things to check out. I'm really looking forward to it. Music is such a huge part of my life. I'm a little rocker girl. Anyway, back to reality. How was the Day in The Garden concert? I want all the news. Nothing much is going on in my life. I'm listening to alot of great music. I think it's stupid to listen to music you don't like just because you want someone else to like you. There's so much good stuff out there...don't waste your time with the bad stuff. That's something I'm very proud of in my entire Griffin daze...I never let him change my tastes no matter how bad he made me feel about them. I just let him expand them. Now I can say I genuinely enjoy Nirvana and the Foo Fighters and the Breeders and loads of others. It's quite nice, a lovely free feeling. I've had a really great summer I think. I look back at the pictures of me from "A Chorus Line" and am amazed at how happy i look. when you're happy you look great and you've absoulutely got this *light* that just shines out of you. i want to always feel that and i want everyone around me to feel it. I'm reading this really great book right now called "High Fidelity" about this pop music junkie in england who has just broken up with his girlfriend. it's great. my favorite part is when he says that with all the music he was listening to when he broke up with his first girlfriend, how was he not going to break up into little pieces? i identified immeadiatly. living off "blue" for the months prior to griffin, how was i not going to just fall apart? the best part of the book so far is when he says, "what came first, the music or the misery?" i highly reccomend it. i love you all and am very glad to be home- mariana NP: Tori Amos, From the Choirgirl Hotel (my favorite of all of tori's) ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #317 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?