From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #294
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
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JMDL Digest Friday, August 7 1998 Volume 03 : Number 294
The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available
now. Go to for all the details.
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Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things
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for more info.
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The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
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Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more.
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The JMDL website can be found at and contains
Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives,
and much more.
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TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
TT [Sumiko Keay ]
some accounting stuff, njc [Mary Grace Valentinsson ]
Record promo (Peripheral JC) [Steve Dulson ]
NORA INN (NJC) [Steve Dulson ]
Record promo (Peripheral JC) [davina@pacificsw.com (Davina Greenstein)]
Joy Askew [Chris Kornmann ]
Joy Askew [Chris Kornmann ]
Re: Joni and money and albums [DKasc13293@aol.com]
NJC RE: Joy Askew ["Wally Kairuz" ]
Re: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!) ["Kakki" ]
Joni's marketing responsibilities.... ["Ben Mulvey" ]
off to wilds (NJC) [Wolfebite@aol.com]
re: Joni Troubador gigs [Don Sloan ]
Re: off to wilds (NJC) [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)]
Re: Joni Troubador gigs ["Kakki" ]
RE: off to wilds (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 16:21:03 -0500
From: Sumiko Keay
Subject: TT
On Billboard's new release list for September 29th:
Joni Mitchell Taming the Tiger (Reprise)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:56:46 -0700
From: Mary Grace Valentinsson
Subject: some accounting stuff, njc
Kakki wrote:
>>It is truly not a write-off as a loss? I've seen record companies
consistently release a certain amount of total rot every year that will
obviously not sell or recoup and they do nothing much to promote it,
either. It seems suspect to me but maybe it's just innocently bad business
judgment.
No, it's not a write-off as a loss. It is a cost of doing business. It's an
expense and a legitimate part of business.
Business like this gamble on where they are going to turn a profit.
Unfortunately, they are burdened with a huge amount of peacock
prancing. At least the larger companies. Personal tastes and egos come
into play as well, preventing an impartial and educated analysis of what
will sell and what will not.
This gambling bit of business is similar to what one would see in any
research and development company. You see a possible product, (read:
new drug, new album, new book), you pump in your dollars, (read:
university research, clinical trials, studio sessions), you promote or not
based on your expected rate of return.
Kakki's point about royalties versus advances is a good one. And points
to the need to have one's contract spell out exactly where in the final
bottom line one's advance sit when calculating royalties. Preferably after
the royalty accounting......
MG - back to July's close....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:05:24 -0700
From: Steve Dulson
Subject: Joni and money and albums
Mary Grace wrote:
>She gets up-front money and has to produce a certain amount of work in
>a certain period of time. Her advance is part of the album's expense. But,
>she has the dough and does not have to wait for royalties to roll in. The
>record company pays the production costs from their AP department.
But thanks to Kakki's comments, and Don Rowe's welcome reposting of
that great article, we know that EVERYTHING the record company lays out
for a Joni project, from the advance, to the limo to take her to the studio,
to the sandwiches from the deli, to the gazillion hours of recording engineer
time gets paid back from the income the album produces.
Joni doesn't earn a cent until those costs are paid off.
Of course, thanks to ASCAP (or is it BMI?) she collects quite a few
"little royalty pennies" on every CD pressed. That, I imagine, is her
primary source of income.
##############################################################
Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com
"The Tinker's Own"
http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html
"Southern California Dulcimer Heritage"
http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:10:45 -0700
From: Steve Dulson
Subject: Record promo (Peripheral JC)
Davina wrote:
>Not all record stores are on
>top of things, but Tower Records really does a nice job. I suppose they
>have in-roads into the record label promotional depts.
I don't know how it works at Tower, but at Borders you pay VERY
BIG BUCKS to get an in-store display, more to get on the listening
stations, more to get an end-cap display, etc., etc. They're not
promoting music out of the goodness of their hearts, they're
generating income.
##############################################################
Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com
"The Tinker's Own"
http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html
"Southern California Dulcimer Heritage"
http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:17:24 -0700
From: Steve Dulson
Subject: NORA INN (NJC)
Maurice wrote:
>>EVERYBODY, NORAINNORAINNORAINNORAINNORAIN!>>
>Reading this ...I read:
>NORA INN NORA INN...................
>A view from an half asleep idiot.
Well, THIS half asleep idiot read it as NORAINN, NORAINN, and
I wondered which female Irish singer gr8fulDave was going on about!
(Irish proper names sometimes looking unusual to Anglo-Saxon eyes...)
##############################################################
Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com
"The Tinker's Own"
http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html
"Southern California Dulcimer Heritage"
http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:43:30 -0700
From: davina@pacificsw.com (Davina Greenstein)
Subject: Record promo (Peripheral JC)
Davina wrote:
>Not all record stores are on
>top of things, but Tower Records really does a nice job. I suppose they
>have in-roads into the record label promotional depts.
Then Steve wrote:
I don't know how it works at Tower, but at Borders you pay VERY
BIG BUCKS to get an in-store display, more to get on the listening
stations, more to get an end-cap display, etc., etc. They're not
promoting music out of the goodness of their hearts, they're
generating income.
>Well that makes perfect sense Steve. These retailers are out to make as
much money as they can. Payola rears it's ugly head again, but with a fresh
new face... and from a different source! Jeez.. I feel so naïve for
thinking these stores were doing it on their own. What was I thinking!
Hmmmm ... I wonder how I can get one of those TTT promotional posters...
lol!
Davina
Np: Etta James - Rocks the House
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:22:45 -0400
From: Chris Kornmann
Subject: Joy Askew
Hello all...
I just wanted to spread the word about a talented singer-songwriter named
Joy Askew. She's an intensely passionate and beautiful performer with an
amazing voice, which is by turns sweet, powerful and captivating. Despite
the apparent influence of Peter Gabriel, Jane Siberry and Kate Bush, her
music is a combination of ethereal rock that is a dense, layered style that
is sophisticated, yet very accessible to pop music lovers. She has been in
the business for several years and has played and toured with Peter
Gabriel, Joe Jackson and Laurie Anderson. A multi-talented artist who
deserves to be heard.
She was signed to Private Music in 1996 and released her debut album
"Tender City". Unfortunately, the record label folded a year later and Joy
was left without a deal. That didn't stop her from recording and releasing
music. In 1997 she was part of the Lilith Fair and released an independent
EP titled "Gorgeous Creature" specifically for the tour. This past month
she released "When" a collection of songs from an upcoming film of the same
name, which includes a great cover of Van Morrison's "The Way Young Lovers
Do". If you get a chance to see her live, don't miss it! She puts on a
great show and does a great cover of Joni Mitchell's "Carey." Below are 2
dates that she will be playing if you are in the New York and Boston areas.
If anyone would like to know more please contact me personally. Thanks for
your time!
*******************************
Joy Askew
Saturday, August 22
The Living Room
84 Stanton Street
(corner of Stanton & Allen)
New York, NY
8:30 pm
FREE!
*******************************
Tales From the Living Room kick-off Concert
Joy Askew & Jenny Bruce
August 15, 19948
76 Boston Avenue - Medford, MA
Come by around 7:30 PM, music will start shortly thereafter
$10 donation please
RSVP to kartalst@hugse1.harvard.edu
Jenny's CD: $10 - self titled
Joy's CDs: $12 - When
$10 - Gorgeous Creature
$15 - Tender City
***This is an ALCOHL FREE Event
***This is a smoke-free event
***Bring Your lawn chairs & blankets! if the skies are clear and happy,
this will be an outdoors event!
For more information contact myself or Stephanie. Hope to see you there!
Chris Kornmann
Art Director
CMJ New Music Report
(516) 498-3137
chrisk@cmj.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:24:31 -0400
From: Chris Kornmann
Subject: Joy Askew
Hello all...
I just wanted to spread the word about a talented singer-songwriter named
Joy Askew. She's an intensely passionate and beautiful performer with an
amazing voice, which is by turns sweet, powerful and captivating. Despite
the apparent influence of Peter Gabriel, Jane Siberry and Kate Bush, her
music is a combination of ethereal rock that is a dense, layered style that
is sophisticated, yet very accessible to pop music lovers. She has been in
the business for several years and has played and toured with Peter
Gabriel, Joe Jackson and Laurie Anderson. A multi-talented artist who
deserves to be heard.
She was signed to Private Music in 1996 and released her debut album
"Tender City". Unfortunately, the record label folded a year later and Joy
was left without a deal. That didn't stop her from recording and releasing
music. In 1997 she was part of the Lilith Fair and released an independent
EP titled "Gorgeous Creature" specifically for the tour. This past month
she released "When" a collection of songs from an upcoming film of the same
name, which includes a great cover of Van Morrison's "The Way Young Lovers
Do". If you get a chance to see her live, don't miss it! She puts on a
great show and does a great cover of Joni Mitchell's "Carey." Below are 2
dates that she will be playing if you are in the New York and Boston areas.
If anyone would like to know more please contact me personally. Thanks for
your time!
*******************************
Joy Askew
Saturday, August 22
The Living Room
84 Stanton Street
(corner of Stanton & Allen)
New York, NY
8:30 pm
FREE!
*******************************
Tales From the Living Room kick-off Concert
Joy Askew & Jenny Bruce
August 15, 19948
76 Boston Avenue - Medford, MA
Come by around 7:30 PM, music will start shortly thereafter
$10 donation please
RSVP to kartalst@hugse1.harvard.edu
Jenny's CD: $10 - self titled
Joy's CDs: $12 - When
$10 - Gorgeous Creature
$15 - Tender City
***This is an ALCOHL FREE Event
***This is a smoke-free event
***Bring Your lawn chairs & blankets! if the skies are clear and happy,
this will be an outdoors event!
For more information contact myself or Stephanie. Hope to see you there!
Chris Kornmann
Art Director
CMJ New Music Report
(516) 498-3137
chrisk@cmj.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:21:01 EDT
From: DKasc13293@aol.com
Subject: Re: Joni and money and albums
In a message dated 98-08-06 18:07:15 EDT, steve@psitech.com writes:
<<
Of course, thanks to ASCAP (or is it BMI?) she collects quite a few
"little royalty pennies" on every CD pressed. That, I imagine, is her
primary source of income. >>
To add, there is a BIG Joni Mitchell section in most every major record store.
Joni's catalog has grown to an impressive size over the years. People are
still buying Blue, Court and Spark and Hejira. I admit to having this awkward
guilt about her albums not being commercially successful, and feeling
compelled to buy more than 3 copies of a CD to spread around. Like it's my
responsibility to do the promotion on a Joni album.
I have been a diehard fan from the beginning, and my enthusiasm has grown and
grown. I have followed Joni down to the obscure position she has occupies
now. I'm hopeful, for both our sakes, that the tides turn in our favor.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:59:58 -0300
From: "Wally Kairuz"
Subject: NJC RE: Joy Askew
You can also see Joy Askew in Laurie Anderson's film Home of the Brave.
WallyK
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:20:41 -0700
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!)
Steve wrote:
> Boy, has the Troubadour changed! In the '70s the downstairs was
> long tables, perpendicular to the stage, where you were packed in
> like sardines, but quite acceptable. Upstairs was where the
> industry bigwigs got to sit. Now, a long bar has been inserted, parallel to
the stage, and about
> 20 feet away from it. In fornt of the bar is *nothing*, well,
> a dance floor. It used to be a classy joint. Now it's a
heavy-metal/alternative
> club, with "NO STAGE DIVING" signs everywhere. Sigh.
Steve - I feel your pain. I was sorely disappointed when I went to the Troub
back in November and found it so changed. But it has seemed to go the way of
so many clubs. House of Blues and the recently deceased Billboard Live are
also basically standing room only. Very obnoxious for us middle-aged music
lovers. They do it to cram more bodies in and make more $$. But here's a tip
- - both times I've gone I've been easily able to sit on the left stage. No one
hassled me to leave and I had a better than front row seat. Sitting upstairs
is a depressing alternative.
Kakki
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 20:58:09 PDT
From: "Ben Mulvey"
Subject: Joni's marketing responsibilities....
Been finding the whole Joni marketing thread very interesting -
particularly peoples comments on Joni's attitude to her own marketing.
That record companies are big corporate baddies, only interested in the
mighty $ - shouldn't surprise anyone. I loved hearing everyone's info
on their inside workings, but funny how none of their nefarious tricks
come as a surprise...
I think Joni's attitude to the whole thing is more interesting. Someone
said she had a "chip on her shoulder" about her record companies
perceived lack of effort in promoting her, and in the MOJO article her
complaints about them comes up again. Its always struck me as naive on
Joni's part to look at it that kind of way.
But then again doesn't the world of "mainstream hits" and success just
belong to the worlds "Titanic's" and Celine Dion's and other certified
blockbusters (the dollar generators). All of the mainstream media - the
big channels, film/record/publishing companies are ruled by quarterly
profit margins as much as any other corporation selling any
other commodity. I've come across the observation numerous times, that
what American TV stations & film studios will bank on - is the safe,
predictable money spinners - no risks.
Lets face it - Joni's never going to be a cash cow for the mainstream
media. As everyone on the list who talks about this is so enthusiastic
about Joni pushing more records - I guess what we really want, is for
Joni to be more publicly recognized for her achievements.
It always strikes me reading all the reviews of her over the years on
Les's site. How she is almost universally acclaimed by critics, and
phrases like "possibly greatest female singer/songwriter ever" are not
unusual to finds. But as you are all probably aware ask anybody under
30 about Joni - all you are likely to get is some vague recollection of
some long-haired woman in a hippie dress singing Woodstock.
And yet her (male) peers like Dylan & Morrison are still in the wider
public musical "radar".
I guess the point to this long & rambling mail - is that maybe some of
the responsibility for this situation lies with Joni. Was it in the
MOJO article she said her painting was the main focus of her like &
music was just a job to pay the bills ??
I guess for Joni to come back into the public consciousness again in a
big way - she would need some media "event" to make the media regard her
as "hip, cool & relevant". Something similar to John Travolta's career
resurrection in 'Pulp Fiction' perhaps ??
Gawd, I'd better finish up (if theres anyone still reading !!). Final
observation - I guess an artist has to be 'hungry' for that sort of
public recognition to go after it - you know what, deep down I don't
think Joni cares that much for it.
Seya, Ben - who enjoyed very much recent NJC on opera & poetry
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 00:30:18 EDT
From: Wolfebite@aol.com
Subject: off to wilds (NJC)
hello everyone
off to the wilds of the minnesota northwoods for a week of camping with
friends-
have my tent
dulcimer
walkman
and
the entire
tape tree archives
what a week
read y'all later
doug
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 22:05:31 -0700
From: Don Sloan
Subject: re: Joni Troubador gigs
steve doulson wrote:
> Owner Doug Weston had, maybe still has, a policy where, the first
> time you play the club, you sign a contract saying something like
> "I agree to play x nights at the Troubadour within the next x
> years, when Mr. Weston desires it, for the same pay I'm getting tonight."
> Which was how he had people like Newman and Lightfoot playing
> the room long after they'd moved on to bigger and better venues.
> As a young folkie would sell his/her grandmother to get a Troub
> gig, this was no problem for them.
>
> So this is why Joni played a sold-out 4 or 5 night stand at the Troub
> in '68 or '69. Whew - got to the AZJC!
Steve... didn't Joni do the *payback* gigs later than '68-'69? I
remember standing in line for a few hours to get tickets but they sold
out shortly before I would have got to the window. Seems to me that was
early '70s. Anyone?
Don
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 05:28:14 GMT
From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)
Subject: Re: off to wilds (NJC)
Have a good one!
-Kenny
On 8/7/98 12:30AM, Wolfebite@aol.com wrote:
hello everyone
off to the wilds of the minnesota northwoods for a week of camping with
walkman
and
the entire
tape tree archives
what a week
read y'all later
doug
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:34:54 -0700
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: Joni Troubador gigs
Don wrote:
> > So this is why Joni played a sold-out 4 or 5 night stand at the Troub
> > in '68 or '69. Whew - got to the AZJC!
>
> Steve... didn't Joni do the *payback* gigs later than '68-'69? I
> remember standing in line for a few hours to get tickets but they sold
> out shortly before I would have got to the window. Seems to me that was
> early '70s. Anyone?
I have a tape of Joni playing at the Troubadour dated from late Fall 1972.
%#@*! I wish I could have been. Repeating old info but I saw Joni in La Masia
restaurant next door one night in the early 80s after fleeing the worst punk
music I've ever endured at the Troub. Also, Marsha and I could swear we
spotted her upstairs in the VIP room during the Jonatha Brooke concert last
November. Ooo, wonder if Joni still might have to do another payback gig there
soon?! HA!
Kakki
NP: Insect Surfers - Diamondback (better than it sounds - like Jefferson
Airplane-tinged surfer music ;-)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:34:58 -0300
From: "Wally Kairuz"
Subject: RE: off to wilds (NJC)
>On 8/7/98 12:30AM, Wolfebite@aol.com wrote:
>
> hello everyone
>
> off to the wilds of the minnesota northwoods for a week of camping with
> walkman
> and
> the entire
> tape tree archives
>
> what a week
>
> read y'all later
>
> doug
Where's your insect repellent?
Have a great vacation, dougie dog!
WallyK
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V3 #294
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