From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #294 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, August 7 1998 Volume 03 : Number 294 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- TT [Sumiko Keay ] some accounting stuff, njc [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Record promo (Peripheral JC) [Steve Dulson ] NORA INN (NJC) [Steve Dulson ] Record promo (Peripheral JC) [davina@pacificsw.com (Davina Greenstein)] Joy Askew [Chris Kornmann ] Joy Askew [Chris Kornmann ] Re: Joni and money and albums [DKasc13293@aol.com] NJC RE: Joy Askew ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!) ["Kakki" ] Joni's marketing responsibilities.... ["Ben Mulvey" ] off to wilds (NJC) [Wolfebite@aol.com] re: Joni Troubador gigs [Don Sloan ] Re: off to wilds (NJC) [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: Joni Troubador gigs ["Kakki" ] RE: off to wilds (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 16:21:03 -0500 From: Sumiko Keay Subject: TT On Billboard's new release list for September 29th: Joni Mitchell Taming the Tiger (Reprise) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:56:46 -0700 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: some accounting stuff, njc Kakki wrote: >>It is truly not a write-off as a loss? I've seen record companies consistently release a certain amount of total rot every year that will obviously not sell or recoup and they do nothing much to promote it, either. It seems suspect to me but maybe it's just innocently bad business judgment. No, it's not a write-off as a loss. It is a cost of doing business. It's an expense and a legitimate part of business. Business like this gamble on where they are going to turn a profit. Unfortunately, they are burdened with a huge amount of peacock prancing. At least the larger companies. Personal tastes and egos come into play as well, preventing an impartial and educated analysis of what will sell and what will not. This gambling bit of business is similar to what one would see in any research and development company. You see a possible product, (read: new drug, new album, new book), you pump in your dollars, (read: university research, clinical trials, studio sessions), you promote or not based on your expected rate of return. Kakki's point about royalties versus advances is a good one. And points to the need to have one's contract spell out exactly where in the final bottom line one's advance sit when calculating royalties. Preferably after the royalty accounting...... MG - back to July's close.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:05:24 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Joni and money and albums Mary Grace wrote: >She gets up-front money and has to produce a certain amount of work in >a certain period of time. Her advance is part of the album's expense. But, >she has the dough and does not have to wait for royalties to roll in. The >record company pays the production costs from their AP department. But thanks to Kakki's comments, and Don Rowe's welcome reposting of that great article, we know that EVERYTHING the record company lays out for a Joni project, from the advance, to the limo to take her to the studio, to the sandwiches from the deli, to the gazillion hours of recording engineer time gets paid back from the income the album produces. Joni doesn't earn a cent until those costs are paid off. Of course, thanks to ASCAP (or is it BMI?) she collects quite a few "little royalty pennies" on every CD pressed. That, I imagine, is her primary source of income. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:10:45 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Record promo (Peripheral JC) Davina wrote: >Not all record stores are on >top of things, but Tower Records really does a nice job. I suppose they >have in-roads into the record label promotional depts. I don't know how it works at Tower, but at Borders you pay VERY BIG BUCKS to get an in-store display, more to get on the listening stations, more to get an end-cap display, etc., etc. They're not promoting music out of the goodness of their hearts, they're generating income. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:17:24 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: NORA INN (NJC) Maurice wrote: >>EVERYBODY, NORAINNORAINNORAINNORAINNORAIN!>> >Reading this ...I read: >NORA INN NORA INN................... >A view from an half asleep idiot. Well, THIS half asleep idiot read it as NORAINN, NORAINN, and I wondered which female Irish singer gr8fulDave was going on about! (Irish proper names sometimes looking unusual to Anglo-Saxon eyes...) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:43:30 -0700 From: davina@pacificsw.com (Davina Greenstein) Subject: Record promo (Peripheral JC) Davina wrote: >Not all record stores are on >top of things, but Tower Records really does a nice job. I suppose they >have in-roads into the record label promotional depts. Then Steve wrote: I don't know how it works at Tower, but at Borders you pay VERY BIG BUCKS to get an in-store display, more to get on the listening stations, more to get an end-cap display, etc., etc. They're not promoting music out of the goodness of their hearts, they're generating income. >Well that makes perfect sense Steve. These retailers are out to make as much money as they can. Payola rears it's ugly head again, but with a fresh new face... and from a different source! Jeez.. I feel so naïve for thinking these stores were doing it on their own. What was I thinking! Hmmmm ... I wonder how I can get one of those TTT promotional posters... lol! Davina Np: Etta James - Rocks the House ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:22:45 -0400 From: Chris Kornmann Subject: Joy Askew Hello all... I just wanted to spread the word about a talented singer-songwriter named Joy Askew. She's an intensely passionate and beautiful performer with an amazing voice, which is by turns sweet, powerful and captivating. Despite the apparent influence of Peter Gabriel, Jane Siberry and Kate Bush, her music is a combination of ethereal rock that is a dense, layered style that is sophisticated, yet very accessible to pop music lovers. She has been in the business for several years and has played and toured with Peter Gabriel, Joe Jackson and Laurie Anderson. A multi-talented artist who deserves to be heard. She was signed to Private Music in 1996 and released her debut album "Tender City". Unfortunately, the record label folded a year later and Joy was left without a deal. That didn't stop her from recording and releasing music. In 1997 she was part of the Lilith Fair and released an independent EP titled "Gorgeous Creature" specifically for the tour. This past month she released "When" a collection of songs from an upcoming film of the same name, which includes a great cover of Van Morrison's "The Way Young Lovers Do". If you get a chance to see her live, don't miss it! She puts on a great show and does a great cover of Joni Mitchell's "Carey." Below are 2 dates that she will be playing if you are in the New York and Boston areas. If anyone would like to know more please contact me personally. Thanks for your time! ******************************* Joy Askew Saturday, August 22 The Living Room 84 Stanton Street (corner of Stanton & Allen) New York, NY 8:30 pm FREE! ******************************* Tales From the Living Room kick-off Concert Joy Askew & Jenny Bruce August 15, 19948 76 Boston Avenue - Medford, MA Come by around 7:30 PM, music will start shortly thereafter $10 donation please RSVP to kartalst@hugse1.harvard.edu Jenny's CD: $10 - self titled Joy's CDs: $12 - When $10 - Gorgeous Creature $15 - Tender City ***This is an ALCOHL FREE Event ***This is a smoke-free event ***Bring Your lawn chairs & blankets! if the skies are clear and happy, this will be an outdoors event! For more information contact myself or Stephanie. Hope to see you there! Chris Kornmann Art Director CMJ New Music Report (516) 498-3137 chrisk@cmj.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:24:31 -0400 From: Chris Kornmann Subject: Joy Askew Hello all... I just wanted to spread the word about a talented singer-songwriter named Joy Askew. She's an intensely passionate and beautiful performer with an amazing voice, which is by turns sweet, powerful and captivating. Despite the apparent influence of Peter Gabriel, Jane Siberry and Kate Bush, her music is a combination of ethereal rock that is a dense, layered style that is sophisticated, yet very accessible to pop music lovers. She has been in the business for several years and has played and toured with Peter Gabriel, Joe Jackson and Laurie Anderson. A multi-talented artist who deserves to be heard. She was signed to Private Music in 1996 and released her debut album "Tender City". Unfortunately, the record label folded a year later and Joy was left without a deal. That didn't stop her from recording and releasing music. In 1997 she was part of the Lilith Fair and released an independent EP titled "Gorgeous Creature" specifically for the tour. This past month she released "When" a collection of songs from an upcoming film of the same name, which includes a great cover of Van Morrison's "The Way Young Lovers Do". If you get a chance to see her live, don't miss it! She puts on a great show and does a great cover of Joni Mitchell's "Carey." Below are 2 dates that she will be playing if you are in the New York and Boston areas. If anyone would like to know more please contact me personally. Thanks for your time! ******************************* Joy Askew Saturday, August 22 The Living Room 84 Stanton Street (corner of Stanton & Allen) New York, NY 8:30 pm FREE! ******************************* Tales From the Living Room kick-off Concert Joy Askew & Jenny Bruce August 15, 19948 76 Boston Avenue - Medford, MA Come by around 7:30 PM, music will start shortly thereafter $10 donation please RSVP to kartalst@hugse1.harvard.edu Jenny's CD: $10 - self titled Joy's CDs: $12 - When $10 - Gorgeous Creature $15 - Tender City ***This is an ALCOHL FREE Event ***This is a smoke-free event ***Bring Your lawn chairs & blankets! if the skies are clear and happy, this will be an outdoors event! For more information contact myself or Stephanie. Hope to see you there! Chris Kornmann Art Director CMJ New Music Report (516) 498-3137 chrisk@cmj.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:21:01 EDT From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni and money and albums In a message dated 98-08-06 18:07:15 EDT, steve@psitech.com writes: << Of course, thanks to ASCAP (or is it BMI?) she collects quite a few "little royalty pennies" on every CD pressed. That, I imagine, is her primary source of income. >> To add, there is a BIG Joni Mitchell section in most every major record store. Joni's catalog has grown to an impressive size over the years. People are still buying Blue, Court and Spark and Hejira. I admit to having this awkward guilt about her albums not being commercially successful, and feeling compelled to buy more than 3 copies of a CD to spread around. Like it's my responsibility to do the promotion on a Joni album. I have been a diehard fan from the beginning, and my enthusiasm has grown and grown. I have followed Joni down to the obscure position she has occupies now. I'm hopeful, for both our sakes, that the tides turn in our favor. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:59:58 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: NJC RE: Joy Askew You can also see Joy Askew in Laurie Anderson's film Home of the Brave. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:20:41 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!) Steve wrote: > Boy, has the Troubadour changed! In the '70s the downstairs was > long tables, perpendicular to the stage, where you were packed in > like sardines, but quite acceptable. Upstairs was where the > industry bigwigs got to sit. Now, a long bar has been inserted, parallel to the stage, and about > 20 feet away from it. In fornt of the bar is *nothing*, well, > a dance floor. It used to be a classy joint. Now it's a heavy-metal/alternative > club, with "NO STAGE DIVING" signs everywhere. Sigh. Steve - I feel your pain. I was sorely disappointed when I went to the Troub back in November and found it so changed. But it has seemed to go the way of so many clubs. House of Blues and the recently deceased Billboard Live are also basically standing room only. Very obnoxious for us middle-aged music lovers. They do it to cram more bodies in and make more $$. But here's a tip - - both times I've gone I've been easily able to sit on the left stage. No one hassled me to leave and I had a better than front row seat. Sitting upstairs is a depressing alternative. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 20:58:09 PDT From: "Ben Mulvey" Subject: Joni's marketing responsibilities.... Been finding the whole Joni marketing thread very interesting - particularly peoples comments on Joni's attitude to her own marketing. That record companies are big corporate baddies, only interested in the mighty $ - shouldn't surprise anyone. I loved hearing everyone's info on their inside workings, but funny how none of their nefarious tricks come as a surprise... I think Joni's attitude to the whole thing is more interesting. Someone said she had a "chip on her shoulder" about her record companies perceived lack of effort in promoting her, and in the MOJO article her complaints about them comes up again. Its always struck me as naive on Joni's part to look at it that kind of way. But then again doesn't the world of "mainstream hits" and success just belong to the worlds "Titanic's" and Celine Dion's and other certified blockbusters (the dollar generators). All of the mainstream media - the big channels, film/record/publishing companies are ruled by quarterly profit margins as much as any other corporation selling any other commodity. I've come across the observation numerous times, that what American TV stations & film studios will bank on - is the safe, predictable money spinners - no risks. Lets face it - Joni's never going to be a cash cow for the mainstream media. As everyone on the list who talks about this is so enthusiastic about Joni pushing more records - I guess what we really want, is for Joni to be more publicly recognized for her achievements. It always strikes me reading all the reviews of her over the years on Les's site. How she is almost universally acclaimed by critics, and phrases like "possibly greatest female singer/songwriter ever" are not unusual to finds. But as you are all probably aware ask anybody under 30 about Joni - all you are likely to get is some vague recollection of some long-haired woman in a hippie dress singing Woodstock. And yet her (male) peers like Dylan & Morrison are still in the wider public musical "radar". I guess the point to this long & rambling mail - is that maybe some of the responsibility for this situation lies with Joni. Was it in the MOJO article she said her painting was the main focus of her like & music was just a job to pay the bills ?? I guess for Joni to come back into the public consciousness again in a big way - she would need some media "event" to make the media regard her as "hip, cool & relevant". Something similar to John Travolta's career resurrection in 'Pulp Fiction' perhaps ?? Gawd, I'd better finish up (if theres anyone still reading !!). Final observation - I guess an artist has to be 'hungry' for that sort of public recognition to go after it - you know what, deep down I don't think Joni cares that much for it. Seya, Ben - who enjoyed very much recent NJC on opera & poetry ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 00:30:18 EDT From: Wolfebite@aol.com Subject: off to wilds (NJC) hello everyone off to the wilds of the minnesota northwoods for a week of camping with friends- have my tent dulcimer walkman and the entire tape tree archives what a week read y'all later doug ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 22:05:31 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: re: Joni Troubador gigs steve doulson wrote: > Owner Doug Weston had, maybe still has, a policy where, the first > time you play the club, you sign a contract saying something like > "I agree to play x nights at the Troubadour within the next x > years, when Mr. Weston desires it, for the same pay I'm getting tonight." > Which was how he had people like Newman and Lightfoot playing > the room long after they'd moved on to bigger and better venues. > As a young folkie would sell his/her grandmother to get a Troub > gig, this was no problem for them. > > So this is why Joni played a sold-out 4 or 5 night stand at the Troub > in '68 or '69. Whew - got to the AZJC! Steve... didn't Joni do the *payback* gigs later than '68-'69? I remember standing in line for a few hours to get tickets but they sold out shortly before I would have got to the window. Seems to me that was early '70s. Anyone? Don ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Aug 98 05:28:14 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: off to wilds (NJC) Have a good one! -Kenny On 8/7/98 12:30AM, Wolfebite@aol.com wrote: hello everyone off to the wilds of the minnesota northwoods for a week of camping with walkman and the entire tape tree archives what a week read y'all later doug ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 22:34:54 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni Troubador gigs Don wrote: > > So this is why Joni played a sold-out 4 or 5 night stand at the Troub > > in '68 or '69. Whew - got to the AZJC! > > Steve... didn't Joni do the *payback* gigs later than '68-'69? I > remember standing in line for a few hours to get tickets but they sold > out shortly before I would have got to the window. Seems to me that was > early '70s. Anyone? I have a tape of Joni playing at the Troubadour dated from late Fall 1972. %#@*! I wish I could have been. Repeating old info but I saw Joni in La Masia restaurant next door one night in the early 80s after fleeing the worst punk music I've ever endured at the Troub. Also, Marsha and I could swear we spotted her upstairs in the VIP room during the Jonatha Brooke concert last November. Ooo, wonder if Joni still might have to do another payback gig there soon?! HA! Kakki NP: Insect Surfers - Diamondback (better than it sounds - like Jefferson Airplane-tinged surfer music ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 03:34:58 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: off to wilds (NJC) >On 8/7/98 12:30AM, Wolfebite@aol.com wrote: > > hello everyone > > off to the wilds of the minnesota northwoods for a week of camping with > walkman > and > the entire > tape tree archives > > what a week > > read y'all later > > doug Where's your insect repellent? Have a great vacation, dougie dog! WallyK ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #294 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?