From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest)
To: joni-digest@smoe.org
Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #293
Reply-To: joni@smoe.org
Sender: les@jmdl.com
Errors-To: les@jmdl.com
Precedence: bulk
JMDL Digest Thursday, August 6 1998 Volume 03 : Number 293
The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available
now. Go to for all the details.
-------
The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank
message to for all the details.
-------
Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things
Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered -
to
-------
And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee.
Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to
for more info.
-------
The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at
and contains the latest news, a detailed bio,
Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more.
-------
The JMDL website can be found at and contains
Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives,
and much more.
==========
TOPICS and authors in this Digest:
--------
Re: j files (fwd) - NJC [FredNow@aol.com]
barely joni content/idiot content [MP123A321@aol.com]
NJC JulieZWebb/Monica whatsit [catman ]
Garden TKTS [JAN201@aol.com]
Infoseek site [Les Irvin ]
RE: record companies & corporations (now NJC) ["Don Rowe" ]
Re: NJC JulieZWebb/Monica whatsit ["Julie Z. Webb" ]
Re: Reprise [TerryM2442@aol.com]
garden [Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org]
re: REprise ["Julie Z. Webb" ]
LEAD BALLOON [Steve Dulson ]
Re: REprise [Michael Heath ]
Re: re: REprise ["Reuben Bell3" ]
the recording industry is changing I hope (a bit long) [joe horne ]
re: REprise ["Don Rowe" ]
The Tortured Artist Effect [Les Irvin ]
you don't know me, but I'm gonna be there! [Kaye.Conant@ipaper.com]
RE: the recording industry is changing I hope -a bit long (sjc) [davina@]
Re: LEAD BALLOON [Marsha ]
Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!) [Steve Dulson ]
Re: Infoseek site [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)]
Re: Other Songwriters [Bounced Message ]
RE: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!) ["Happy The Man" ]
Joni and money and albums [Mary Grace Valentinsson ]
Re: Reprise/Selling Joni ["Kakki" ]
The REAL Music Business (long NJC) ["Don Rowe" ]
Re: Joni and money and albums ["Kakki" ]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 04:24:57 EDT
From: FredNow@aol.com
Subject: Re: j files (fwd) - NJC
LRFye@aol.com wrote:
>>And -- with apologies to those JMDLers who like them -- I can't
>>tolerate even
3 seconds of the Beach Boys ... the thought of
>>extended listening makes my
skin crawl!
Lori, you might change your mind hearing my solo piano versions of Brian
Wilson's magical tunes. I play them like they were Joni tunes. Once you get
away from the bouncy, beachy trappings and just focus on the notes, you're
left with very soulful, bittersweet music.
- -Fred Simon
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 05:54:53 EDT
From: MP123A321@aol.com
Subject: barely joni content/idiot content
gdave posted:
<>
Reading this way too early and skimming the digest because I am envious of the
woodstockers...........I read:
NORA INN NORA INN...................
I'm thinking, they must all be stay at the same motel, the Nora Inn.
A view from an half asleep idiot.
Maurice
" my guitar, my guitar "
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:39:07 +0100
From: catman
Subject: NJC JulieZWebb/Monica whatsit
On the news they showed a pic of Monica greeting Bill at some rally. My,
I thought, that is our Julie from the list!!!
No offence meant, Jules, but I have photo of you from the party that
someone posted snail mail and the similarity is there.
- --
Living is the process whereby we create the structures we call meaning.
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk
Carly Simon Discussion List
http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:53:47 EDT
From: JAN201@aol.com
Subject: Garden TKTS
Hi again--
I thought I'd sold my 2 extra tickets, but it didn't work out. So if anyone
has decided to give in to temptation, let me know!
Jan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:51:53 -0600
From: Les Irvin
Subject: Infoseek site
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 16:53:33 -0400
From: Deb Messling
Okay, I read a little more. The Infoseek site is where folks are going to
able to view the concert live during the event (you virtual guys will
probably have a better view than us attendees!)
The ask-the-artist feature will be activated during the event, as will the
live chat.
Deb Messling
Internet Services Librarian
Bergen County Cooperative Library System
Hackensack, New Jersey
http://www.bccls.org
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 06:59:44 PDT
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: RE: record companies & corporations (now NJC)
>What I don't understand is how the artist ultimately pays the
>entire cost of making the recording (economic *and* artistic),
>and somehow the record company ends up owning the
>recording, with the artist left with no assets other than the
>written songs if they're lucky.
>
>Is there any other standard financial arrangement in the
>Western world that resembles this nonsense?
If you want an eye and ear full on this pernicious subject, visit:
http://www.nmia.com/~akuria/iiart12.htm
Don Rowe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:20:36 PDT
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: Re: record companies & corporations (now NJC)
>Don,
>
>Got a Not Found message.
>
>Jerry
>
Sorry. I found it on Alta Vista searching "ASCAP + scam" then just
copied the URL into the mailer. I guess you could try that ...
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:43:39 -0400
From: "Eric G. Postel"
Subject: Reprise
I have followed the record company thread with interest. It is easy to
blame it all on the record companies but I do not think it is so simple.
Of course, they have a hand in the problem and I certainly have no love for
"Corporate Rock". But, the reality is that unless one hits radio
playlists, records do not sell in large volumes because there are thousands
of records released each year and most consumers only have limited amounts
of money to spend on them. Add in older fans (not the true affionados like
all of us) who often get wrapped up in career, hobbies and/or kids, who may
not even see any music press and hence might not even know there is a new
release and one has the makings of weak sales. In such scenarios unless
one either goes on the road to play live (which generates lots of
publicity) or undertakes innovative marketing, there is simply no other way
to generate sales besides radio.
I obviously hope TTT sells for Joni simply because I always wish the best
for her. But I think one has to be realistic. A few of the large sales
figures I have seen thrown out on JMDL will never happen, unless there was
a radio "hit" and I'll bet on that. Joni herself has a hand to play in all
this. Her choice not to play the "game" e.g., lots of promotional
interviews, going on tour is of course fine with me but it must be
recognised for what it is -- her CHOICE. With the choice comes
consequences and responsibilities. Ditto for her choice of record company.
She could have gone the Ani route or via a smaller record company that
would throw everything into it but without having much distribution. But
she didn't. So she has to live with the results -- which is something I am
confident she understands.
For those who are concerned about Reprise, I can make one suggestion.
Write to Howie Klein the President and ask him to push TTT and say you will
support TTT. Back a while ago when I flirted with the music business
(before deciding it was too unpleasant for me), I spent a summer working
for Howie. At the time, he had his own little record company. Anybody
remember Romeo Void, Translator and Red Rockers. Anyway, I know his tastes
used to tend to run a bit more towards punk and other loud, active music
with an edge but more than that he is a classical record guy. I do not not
expect him to read all the letters or do anything radical but it might
remind him people are focussed on TTTT. He'd probably also wonder how the
heck people got ahold of him (don't mention me -- he will not remember).
Reprise is in NY. Address is on the back of many CDs or via telephone
info.
Second suggestion, buy lots of copies of TTT and give them to friends. I
support blues musicians by buying ten concert tickets when they come to
Madison, giving 9 to the radio station to give away. Sales of the tickets
put money into the pockets of the artist, the giveaways get them airplay.
If each JMDLer buys 5 copies of TTT and gives 4 away, it quintuples Joni's
revenues, encourages the record company that TTT can sell and turns 4
others onto Joni's current body of work. And if one's friends are only
into Metallica, give the copies to local radio stations and reviewers and
ask them to play or write about it.
Bottom line, there are things WE can do as well to help Joni.
Cheers,
Eric
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 10:56:09 -0500
From: "Julie Z. Webb"
Subject: Re: NJC JulieZWebb/Monica whatsit
At 01:39 PM 8/6/98 +0100, you wrote:
>On the news they showed a pic of Monica greeting Bill at some rally. My,
>I thought, that is our Julie from the list!!!
>No offence meant, Jules, but I have photo of you from the party that
>someone posted snail mail and the similarity is there.
EVERYBODY is telling me this---our Fishpond Bev...or was it Heather, no
Heather thinks Im a Laura Nyro "separated at birth" candidate....Even my
young son: When Monica's face was "blown" up (no pun intended) on the
cover of 'Newsweek,' my six year old said, "Mom, that lady looks like you."
. Well, ah, maybe I looked more like her when I was younger ...and I have
brown eyes, not blue...but if you'd ask me my self-aggrandizing opinion, I
feel that I looked more like an Alanis Morrisette in my hippie days with my
long, wavy Carole King hair..... On a bad day, I feel like I can pass for
"Laugh-In's" Ruth Buzzi with a fall. My sister's old boyfriend, who I
didn't much care for and made no secret of it, recently phoned my now
happily married sister and mentioned that he finds it annoying that
everywhere he looks he is reminded of me when he sees Monica's face. One
of investor's wives made mention of this to me at a board meeting of all
places......
-JulieZW, just your average...brown eyed girl
ps, The latest cover of the former Andy Warhol's "Interview" has a blond
guy on the cover who somehow captures the sulking, handsome essence of our
Michael Yarbrough....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:58:16 EDT
From: TerryM2442@aol.com
Subject: Re: Reprise
Eric,
Those are wonderful suggestions! Don't forget, too, to call the local radio
stations, asking for airplay.
I will purchase a bunch of the CDs when they come out, give some away to
friends and the rest to radio stations. And if she does tour, I'll be happy to
buy a group of seats!
Terry, wishing and hoping
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:59:10 -0400
From: Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org
Subject: garden
For some reason, I'm not on the garden list--although I posted I was going
weeks ago. Please add. Thanks
Frank Tortorici
P.S. I'm covering the entire 3 days for Addicted To Noise. They're
especially interested in JM and Day Three.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:51:39 -0500
From: "Julie Z. Webb"
Subject: re: REprise
At 10:43 AM 8/6/98 -0400, Eric wrote:
>Joni herself has a hand to play in all
>this. Her choice not to play the "game" e.g., lots of promotional
>interviews, going on tour is of course fine with me but it must be
>recognised for what it is -- her CHOICE. With the choice comes
>consequences and responsibilities. So she has to live with the
results -- which is something I am
>confident she understands.
Eric,
She may understand this on some level, but on another level I think she's
in denial. If not, she wouldn't make comments like the one in MOJO:
"It's hard to say, because the last 20 years I've had no record company
support, no radio support - the marketplace has been denied me, so I think
a lot of those records, there's a bigger audience for it than it received."
First of all, I have reason to believe that Joni is not reading the
posts from this list. (And we jmdlers constantly speculating the motivation
of Joni is an exercise in groping in the dark, so now that I've named it,
let me grope here.... ;~D )
... It's my guess that she is a wealthy woman who doesn't necessarily have
to work so hard to bring home the bacon these days, and it's far easier to
view the "industry" as the big problem. "Playing the game" isn't a bad
thing, is it? We're not talking about the casting couch here? There are
ways to play and ways to be consumed.... When your profession is that of a
performer isn't performing part of your passion? Aren't interviews, media
attention, reaching out to your fans part of the package?
It's a real conflict of interest to be burdened with the very things that
are an essential part of your craft. I personally think that
painters who profit from their work have it made. -JulieZW, who would
never dream of asking Cassat to paint "The Bath" again, man
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:03:01 -0700
From: Steve Dulson
Subject: LEAD BALLOON
The Estimable Mr. Breese wrote:
>Here are the beginning lines for each song:
>LEAD BALLOON
>"Kiss my ass!" I said
>and I threw my drink
Which recalls the delicious in-jokes of the "Hits" (AKA "Over My Dead
Body") and "Misses" (AKA "Kiss My Ass") cover photos. I wonder if Joni's
cover concepts occured concurrently with the writing of "Lead Balloon"?
Thanks to all for the birthday greetings! :)
##############################################################
Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com
"The Tinker's Own"
http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html
"Southern California Dulcimer Heritage"
http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 08:57:26 -0700
From: Michael Heath
Subject: Re: REprise
Julie Z. Webb wrote:
> First of all, I have reason to believe that Joni is not reading the
> posts from this list. (And we jmdlers constantly speculating the motivation
> of Joni is an exercise in groping in the dark, so now that I've named it,
> let me grope here.... ;~D )
> ... It's my guess that she is a wealthy woman who doesn't necessarily have
> to work so hard to bring home the bacon these days, and it's far easier to
> view the "industry" as the big problem.
the thumb and satchel or the rented rolls royce...
When she was giving a reading of her lyrics and poetry at the Sechelt Writer's Festival and
taking questions from the audience, she responded to a question asking whether she was wealthy
from her works. She replied that she had a couple of nice houses and cars, but that she wasn't
in any way "posh" or something. Then she descibed the amount of money it takes to record and
tour and how people don't realize that you can be quite famous and still not be rich.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:57:48 -0400
From: "Reuben Bell3"
Subject: Re: re: REprise
I agree with Julie on this. I have followed Joni in print for a lot of years now, and she has a huge chip on her shoulder where the media is concerned (I am not justifying or devaluing this, by the way). Whenever her lack of sales is involved, Joni is always dragging out the same aging list of people and events that have ruined her shot at mainstream success. I remember an article in which she said (loosely referring to the Mingus project) that if she had been able to release her albums under a new persona and name every single time, that all of them would have been certified major hits. I do not believe this. Popular music especially seems to go in cycles, and what is huge this year may have been totally ignored if it had come out LAST year. Its very fickle. What I have always liked about Joni is that she doesn't seem to be too concerned with what is sellling, or is likely to sell, or not to sell when she releases her music. Lets face it, this huts her a bit sometime. I personally think it makes her a true artist.
Reuben
who is really, really, REALLY wanting to hear "Lead Balloon". How many more days until TTT???
Eric,
She may understand this on some level, but on another level I think she's
in denial. If not, she wouldn't make comments like the one in MOJO:
"It's hard to say, because the last 20 years I've had no record company
support, no radio support - the marketplace has been denied me, so I think
a lot of those records, there's a bigger audience for it than it received."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:08:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: joe horne
Subject: the recording industry is changing I hope (a bit long)
ALl the posts about records sales, record labels, and the music
business in general have been enlightening and interesting. I;m
convinced that most record companies will disappear (the ones we know
today) and hopefully, what will emerge, will be lots of small
independent artists that do their own stuff like Ani Difranco and Jane
Sibery. It would be more lucrative for Joni to dump her label and do
it herself (with the help of Wally and the rest of us). Our group
seems much more interested in doing things for Joni that her record
company. Hopefully (as Wally mentioned earlier), the record company
will work harder.
But I also know how record companies are. They are a business. The
bottom line is all that matters to them, no matter what they say.
When I was in college I worked at Turtles (bought out by BlockBuster).
When Sam Phillips was getting ready to release "Martinis and Bikinis"
I called the record company every day requesting promotional materials
(I wanted to create a big display of photos and have a promo copy of
the CD to play in the store). They sent the materials (about a month
after the release of the album). They didn't return my calls. It was
frustrating. All of Sam's albums have sold very poorly (and I could
have changed all that with my single in store display!) :)
Well, you get the idea. I;ve got to go and write some technical
documents. Thanks for listening....
joejoejoejoejoejoejoe
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 12:34:34 -0500
From: "Julie Z. Webb"
Subject: Re: REprise
At 08:57 AM 8/6/98 -0700, Cul wrote:
>She replied that she had a couple of nice houses and cars, but that she
wasn't
>in any way "posh" or something. Then she descibed the amount of money it
takes to record and
>tour and how people don't realize that you can be quite famous and still
not be rich.
Ok, she's not rich in the eyes of some, and may need to work... I don't
care about her finances. I mentioned the "loaded" $$ word because I
thought we were discussing/speculating the role of the record company and
the motivation of the artist in terms of a lucrative yet meaningful career.
Bottom line, is that Im thrilled that she is finally touring again so we
can experience more of her music.
-Julie, who merely wonders about the shadows and light....
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:50:54 PDT
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: re: REprise
I'll agree that a lot of what you hear and read about Joni's view on her
record company's performance sounds a bit like denial and excuse making.
But I think for whatever reason, there's been a lot of missed
opportunities for Joni to recapture and/or expand her audience ... one
big one that comes to mind is the early 1980's music video explosion.
For a couple of years there, if you made a good video that got on MTV,
people went out and bought your album -- lots of the '80s bands got made
that way. And it seems that given Joni's dual interests in visual +
musical art -- it would have been natural! Of course, that now probably
brings up costs of video production etc. etc. Has she ever commented on
this? Just curious ...
Don Rowe
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:02:20 -0600
From: Les Irvin
Subject: The Tortured Artist Effect
Hi Joniphiles -
I just added a new interview to the website - it's a piece done in Ireland
in 1983 (many thanks to Philip!). It's an interesting interview for many
reasons. One response of Joni's in particular that I enjoyed was her
explanation of the "tortured artist effect":
"Writing is a private business. If you're having a good time, you're less
likely to be writing about it. Joy, I find a very evasive thing to
describe. You live it out, it's very present tense, whereas the things that
go wrong require scrutiny and wallowing. Driven into seclusiveness by some
uncomfortable moment, the easiest thing is to take it apart and write about
it. I guess it's a form of therapy and that's what a lot of my work is about."
That's always been a question I wanted her to answer... now she has. Only
took me 15 years to find it. :-)
You can read the interview by going to the articles page:
http://www.jmdl.com/articles/
and scrolling down to 1983.
back to our regularly scheduled program...
Les
NP: John Martyn - "The Church With One Bell"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:02:29 -0500
From: Kaye.Conant@ipaper.com
Subject: you don't know me, but I'm gonna be there!
> Look over the list below. The Yarn Kollection [Mendi]
> isn't on it, yet I know she is coming. From what I understand
Marsha,
> Julie, and Kakki aren't attending but wanted to be in on the scoop.
If you
> are on this list and also being voyeuristic, please write so we can
compile
> a list of those who are definitely attending.
Hey,
I'm a new JMDLer and I'll be attending the concert with one other
friend. Please stick my name on the list (Katie Conant & Mary
Costello (). I'll be looking for everyone at
Don's RV. I've been pretty much obsessed with Joni for awhile now and
it'll be great to be around people who like her stuff as much as I do.
I look forward to seeing everybody. Woo-hoo!!!
Katie (Green Bay, WI)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:00:41 -0700
From: davina@pacificsw.com (Davina Greenstein)
Subject: RE: the recording industry is changing I hope -a bit long (sjc)
>Joe wrote
I called the record company every day requesting promotional materials
(I wanted to create a big display of photos and have a promo copy of
the CD to play in the store). They sent the materials (about a month
after the release of the album).
I live in Los Angeles and really have to hand it to Tower Records. When
Hits and Misses came out, as well as TI, the store had huge displays of the
new CDs along with promotional posters on a properly displayed endcap. I
hope the same is done for TTT. Tower and Virgin are really huge in this
market and Joni really needs this visibility. Not all record stores are on
top of things, but Tower Records really does a nice job. I suppose they
have in-roads into the record label promotional depts.
::Davina secretly plotting how to get a Joni TTT promotional poster :)::::::
np: Led Zep BBC Sessions
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of joe
horne
Sent: Thursday, August 06, 1998 9:09 AM
To: joni@smoe.org
Subject: the recording industry is changing I hope (a bit long)
ALl the posts about records sales, record labels, and the music
business in general have been enlightening and interesting. I;m
convinced that most record companies will disappear (the ones we know
today) and hopefully, what will emerge, will be lots of small
independent artists that do their own stuff like Ani Difranco and Jane
Sibery. It would be more lucrative for Joni to dump her label and do
it herself (with the help of Wally and the rest of us). Our group
seems much more interested in doing things for Joni that her record
company. Hopefully (as Wally mentioned earlier), the record company
will work harder.
But I also know how record companies are. They are a business. The
bottom line is all that matters to them, no matter what they say.
When I was in college I worked at Turtles (bought out by BlockBuster).
When Sam Phillips was getting ready to release "Martinis and Bikinis"
I called the record company every day requesting promotional materials
(I wanted to create a big display of photos and have a promo copy of
the CD to play in the store). They sent the materials (about a month
after the release of the album). They didn't return my calls. It was
frustrating. All of Sam's albums have sold very poorly (and I could
have changed all that with my single in store display!) :)
Well, you get the idea. I;ve got to go and write some technical
documents. Thanks for listening....
joejoejoejoejoejoejoe
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:04:21 -0400
From: Marsha
Subject: Re: LEAD BALLOON
Steve Dulson wrote:
>
> Which recalls the delicious in-jokes of the "Hits" (AKA "Over My Dead
> Body") and "Misses" (AKA "Kiss My Ass") cover photos. I wonder if Joni's
> cover concepts occured concurrently with the writing of "Lead Balloon"?
And don't forget the horse's ass on the For the Roses
music book cover...
Joni's been sticking it to "the man" for years with her visual
depictions of the industry.
She uses all methods of communication for airing her grievance:
Words in Print
Words in Music
Photos and Paintings
Good going, Joan
MoP, humming Lead Balloon, lead balloon, lead balloon,
p.s. Happy belated, Steverino aka Swami!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:15:41 -0700
From: Steve Dulson
Subject: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!)
There, I've gone and invented a new acronym (Almost Zero
Joni Content).
Last night I went to the Troubadour, in West Hollywood, to see
Gillian Welch and David Rawlings. A quick check of my concert
database revealed that it had been TWENTY-THREE years since I'd
been to the venerable Troub.
(Boring nostalgia follows!)
Here's who I've seen there in the past, first number is "This is the
(number) time I've seen this artist", last number is my rating
on a 1 to 5 scale, with * for extra good stuff)
1 Clayton, Merry Troubadour West Hollywood 9/24/70 4
1 Davis, Spencer Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 4
1 Dillards, The Troubadour West Hollywood 8/21/70 4
2 Goodman, Steve Troubadour West Hollywood 9/20/75 5
2 Hicks, Dan & Hot Licks TroubadourWest Hollywood7/25/71 5
1 Higgins, Dee Troubadour West Hollywood 10/25/70 3
1 Jo Mama Troubadour West Hollywood 7/25/71 4
1 Kolac, Bonnie Troubadour West Hollywood 9/20/75 4
1 Krisstofferson, KrisTroubadour West Hollywood 6/14/71 4
1 Lightfoot, GordonTroubadour West Hollywood 10/25/70 4*
2 Lightfoot, GordonTroubadour West Hollywood 1/7/72 4*
1 Longbranch/Pennywhistle TroubadourWest Hollywood8/21/70 3
1 Mathews, Ian Troubadour West Hollywood 9/12/71 4
1 Miller, Roger Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 4
2 Near, Holly Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 4
3 Near, Holly Troubadour West Hollywood 9/20/75 4
1 Newman, Randy Troubadour West Hollywood 9/12/71 5*
1 Ochs, Phil Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 4
1 Pickett, Bobby "Boris" TroubadourWest Hollywood8/31/75 4
1 Reddy, Helen Troubadour West Hollywood 6/14/71 3
1 Seatrain Troubadour West Hollywood 12/8/70 4
2 Sebastian, John Troubadour West Hollywood 9/24/70 4*
1 Sill, Judee Troubadour West Hollywood 1/7/72 4*
1 Stevens, Cat Troubadour West Hollywood 12/8/70 5
5 Waits, Tom Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 4
1 Whitcomb, Ian Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 3
(Longbranch/Pennywhistle was, if memory serves, J. D. Souther and
Glen Frey, pre Eagles)
Boy, has the Troubadour changed! In the '70s the downstairs was
long tables, perpendicular to the stage, where you were packed in
like sardines, but quite acceptable. Upstairs was where the
industry bigwigs got to sit.
Now, a long bar has been inserted, parallel to the stage, and about
20 feet away from it. In fornt of the bar is *nothing*, well,
a dance floor. In back of the bar are some tables. Totally without
conscious thought Michele and I, and our friends Jessie and Erin,
are swept up the stairs to where there are four rows of bench seats,
seating just *44* people. We were the last ones to get seats. If
you came later, you could stand and see the show, or sit behind the
bar and see people's backs. Ich.
It used to be a classy joint. Now it's a heavy-metal/alternative
club, with "NO STAGE DIVING" signs everywhere. Sigh.
Owner Doug Weston had, maybe still has, a policy where, the first
time you play the club, you sign a contract saying something like
"I agree to play x nights at the Troubadour within the next x
years, when Mr. Weston desires it, for the same pay I'm getting tonight."
Which was how he had people like Newman and Lightfoot playing
the room long after they'd moved on to bigger and better venues.
As a young folkie would sell his/her grandmother to get a Troub
gig, this was no problem for them.
So this is why Joni played a sold-out 4 or 5 night stand at the Troub
in '68 or '69. Whew - got to the AZJC!
Dar is playing there in December - don't think I'll go. I might miss
one of the 44 seats, and I be too old to stand for a whole show
anymore!
ps David and Gillian were wonderful! Two sets of their voices, guitars
and banjo. Not a dud song all evening. I said to Gillian afterwards
"The new CD is so non-commercial, it's wonderful!" "Yeah," she said,
"we weren't exactly going for major airplay on this one." Check them
out!
Sorry for the blather! We now return to your regular list, in progress...
##############################################################
Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com
"The Tinker's Own"
http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html
"Southern California Dulcimer Heritage"
http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:24:36 -0400
From: Jerry Notaro
Subject: Re: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!)
Merry Clayton!!??
Now that really is nostalgia!
The last time I heard of her was as The Gypsy Queen on the Royal
Philharmonic recording of Tommy.
Jerry
np: Sunset Blvd. - London cast
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:49:52 -0500
From: Mark Domyancich
Subject: TTT Promos (WAs RE: the recording industry is changing I hope -a bit long (sjc))
My local music shop always has these cardboard 8" x 8" cards of recent
album releases on their windows. I called them up one day and asked them if
I could buy some and they said they charge a measly $1 for each!
So when TTT rolls around, I'll buy 'em all and send 'em out to anyone who
wants them! ;)
LIMH: "My friends were calling up all day yesterday..."
>>Joe wrote
>
>I called the record company every day requesting promotional materials
>(I wanted to create a big display of photos and have a promo copy of
>the CD to play in the store). They sent the materials (about a month
>after the release of the album).
>
____________________________________
| Mark Domyancich |
| Harpua@revealed.net |
| http://home.revealed.net/Harpua/ |
|__________________________________|
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:11:21 -0500
From: Diana Duncan
Subject: Re: Infoseek site
At 07:51 AM 8/6/1998 -0600, Les Irvin wrote:
>Okay, I read a little more. The Infoseek site is where folks are going to
>able to view the concert live during the event (you virtual guys will
>probably have a better view than us attendees!)
>The ask-the-artist feature will be activated during the event, as will the
>live chat.
Do you have to purchase that "Real Player" to see this? Seems awfully
expensive!
Diana,
with the tight purse strings
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 18:24:11 GMT
From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)
Subject: Re: Infoseek site
Hi Diana,
RealPlayer, like Netscape Communicator, is available FREE OF CHARGE. They just
make it exceptionally hard to find the free download page, and bombard you with
service & support options (for which they charge) that are *real easy* to see.
I personally couldn't see myself *enjoying* a concert on my PC, the technology
seems so primitive, but I suppose it would be better than nothing! :-)
Here's the link to the free download page:
http://www.real.com/products/player/downloadrealplayer.html?wp=dl0898&src=downlo
adr,v3
-Kenny
On 8/6/98 2:11PM, Diana Duncan wrote:
Do you have to purchase that "Real Player" to see this? Seems awfully
expensive!
Diana,
with the tight purse strings
At 07:51 AM 8/6/1998 -0600, Les Irvin wrote:
>Okay, I read a little more. The Infoseek site is where folks are going to
>able to view the concert live during the event (you virtual guys will
>probably have a better view than us attendees!)
>The ask-the-artist feature will be activated during the event, as will the
>live chat.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 12:40:02 -0600
From: Bounced Message
Subject: Re: Other Songwriters
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:23:46 -0400
From: Chris Thorpe
I will take a stab at this one, two songs come to
mind, Van Morrison's "A Town Called Paradise" and
John Gorka's "Flying Red Horse".
Fellow Marylander here, near Columbia.
- -- chris
John Gorka Discussion List (thanks Colin)
http://www.erols.com/haviland/gorka.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:49:03 -0500
From: "Happy The Man"
Subject: RE: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!)
What other Southern California venue had the long table during the 70's only
to be torn down in the late 80's?
Steve Wrote:
Boy, has the Troubadour changed! In the '70s the downstairs was
long tables, perpendicular to the stage, where you were packed in
like sardines, but quite acceptable. Upstairs was where the
industry bigwigs got to sit.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 12:11:50 PDT
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: An Amusing Top 10 List (NJC)
Top Ten Signs Your Co-Worker Is A Computer Hacker:
10. Everyone who ticks him off gets a $26,000 phone bill.
9. He's won the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes three years
running.
8. When asked for his phone number, he gives it in BinHex.
7. Seems strangely calm whenever the office LAN goes down.
6. Somehow gets HBO on his PC at work.
5. Mumbled, "Oh, puh-leeeez!" 295 times during the movie "The Net."
4. Massive 401k contribution made in half-cent increments.
3. His video dating profile lists "public-key encryption" among
turn-ons.
2. Instead of the "Welcome" voice on AOL, you overhear, "Good
Morning, Mr. President."
And the Number One sign your co-worker is a computer hacker...
1. You hear him murmur, "Let's see you use that Mastercard now,
Professor I-Don't-Give-A's-In-Computer-Science!"
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:11:28 -0700
From: Mary Grace Valentinsson
Subject: Joni and money and albums
From bits and pieces on the list about how Joni makes, (or doesn't make),
money......
The way I've been reading doesn't seem to make much sense to me in
that before Joni can turn a profit, the production expense is paid back.
I would suspect that her contract w/ a record company would have two
avenues of revenue for her: an advance and royalties.
She gets up-front money and has to produce a certain amount of work in
a certain period of time. Her advance is part of the album's expense. But,
she has the dough and does not have to wait for royalties to roll in. The
record company pays the production costs from their AP department.
Royalties can be calculated in a variety of ways. You can have royalties
on gross sales, royalties on gross sales net of returns: there are 101
creative ways to manipulate the dollar figure of what the albums are
pulling in and it takes a savvy artist or one with a savvy business person
to cut the best deal.
When any artists does not turn a profit, both entities suffer a loss. The
artist AND the record company. It hits home harder for an artist because
it is, after all, their job, but it's no picnic for a record company. It's not a
write off for them at all. It's an expense of doing business that has a
negative impact on their bottom line, their ability to secure future funding,
their leverage when negotiating with vendors, the future of any potential
IPO's, etc. etc. etc.
Sometimes it seems that Joni is a prisoner of her talent and artistic
freedom. The jailer is the current economics and practices of the music
business.
And that's how I see it from the world of accounting.....
MG
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:06:42 -0700
From: Steve Dulson
Subject: Southern California venue (NJC)
>What other Southern California venue had the long table during the 70's only
>to be torn down in the late 80's?
The Golden Bear, in Huntington Beach. What a loss!
##############################################################
Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com
"The Tinker's Own"
http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html
"Southern California Dulcimer Heritage"
http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:09:51 -0700
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: Reprise/Selling Joni
Terry wrote re Eric's post:
> Those are wonderful suggestions! Don't forget, too, to call the local radio
> stations, asking for airplay.
I think it would be fun for us to come up with a little "marketing" plan and
then do a some tracking to see if we help make a dent in the charts for TTT in
the first critical weeks. Since we are from all over the place we've
potentially got a lot of territory covered already. Everyone could make calls
in their regions.
> I will purchase a bunch of the CDs when they come out, give some away to
> friends and the rest to radio stations.
If we can order copies in advance from CD Now or Music Boulevard, we should do
so through the JMDL site so Les can benefit, too. Or we could purchase our
first copy from the record store and then order the additional copies through
the site.
I'm wondering if the TTT package will include a "Crackerjack surprise" like the
little tin ear that came in limited editions of TI? Wonder what it might be -
maybe a miniature paintbrush or plastic tiger?!
Kakki
NP: Liv Taylor - Our Turn To Dance
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:28:41 PDT
From: "Don Rowe"
Subject: The REAL Music Business (long NJC)
This is a salient, and I'm sorry so long, article written by Steve
Albini, a big fish Seattle music biz type. Kind of eye-opening, and in
light of the current discussions, thought I'd repost it for everyone.
Sorry for the bandwidth, but it really is worth it.
Don Rowe
II.There's This Band
>
> There's this band. They're pretty ordinary, but
> they're also pretty good, so they've attracted some
> attention. They're signed to a moderate-sized
> "independent" label owned by a distribution
> company, and they have another two albums
> owed to the label.
>
> They're a little ambitious. They'd like to get
> signed by a major label so they can have some
> security you know, get some good equipment, tour
> in a proper tour bus -- nothing fancy, just a little
> reward for all the hard work.
>
> To that end, they got a manager. He knows some
> of the label guys, and he can shop their next
> project to all the right people. He takes his cut,
> sure, but it's only 15%, and if he can get them
> signed then it's money well spent. Anyways, it
> doesn't cost them anything if it doesn't work.
> 15% of nothing isn't much!
>
> One day an A & R scout calls them, says he's
> been following them for a while now, and when
> their manager mentioned them to him, it just
> "clicked." Would they like to meet with him about
> the possibility of working out a deal with his
> label? Wow. Big Break time.
>
> They meet the guy, and y'know what -- he's not
> what they expected from a label guy. He's young
> and dresses pretty much like the band does. He
> knows all their favorite bands. He's like one of
> them. He tells them he wants to go to bat for
> them, to try to get them everything they want.
> He says anything is possible with the right
> attitude. They conclude the evening by taking
> home a copy of a deal memo they wrote out
> and signed on the spot.
>
> The A & R guy was full of great ideas, even
> talked about using a name producer. Butch Vig
> is out of the question-he wants 100 g's and three
> points, but they can get Don Fleming for $30,000
> plus three points. Even that's a little steep, so
> maybe they'll go with that guy who used to be in
> David Letterman's band. He only wants three
> points. Or they can have just anybody record it
> (like Warton Tiers, maybe-- cost you 5 or 7 grand)
> and have Andy Wallace remix it for 4 grand a
> track plus 2 points. It was a lot to think about.
>
> Well, they like this guy and they trust him.
> Besides, they already signed the deal memo.
> He must have been serious about wanting them
> to sign. They break the news to their current
> label, and the label manager says he wants them
> to succeed, so they have his blessing. He will
> need to be compensated, of course, for the
> remaining albums left on their contract, but
> he'll work it out with the label himself. Sub Pop
> made millions from selling off Nirvana, and
> Twin Tone hasn't done bad either: 50 grand for
> the Babes In Toyland and 60 grand for the Poster
> Children-- without having to sell a single
> additional record. It'll be something modest.
> The new label doesn't mind, so long as it's
> recoupable out of royalties (meaning the band
> pays the label back for "buying" them).
>
> Well, they get the final contract, and it's not
> quite what they expected. They figure it's better
> to be safe than sorry and they turn it over to a
> lawyer --one who says he's experienced in
> entertainment law and he hammers out a few
> bugs. They're still not sure about it, but the
> lawyer says he's seen a lot of contracts, and
> theirs is pretty good. There'll be great royalty:
> 13% (less a 1O% packaging deduction). Wasn't it
> Buffalo Tom that were only getting 12% less
> 10%, too? Whatever.
>
> The old label only wants 50 grand, an no points.
> Hell, Sub Pop got 3 points when they let Nirvana
> go. They're signed for four years, with options on
> each year, for a total of over a million dollars!
> That's a lot of money in any man's English. The
> first year's advance alone is $250,000. Just think
> about it, a quarter million, just for being in a
> rock band!
>
> Their manager thinks it's a great deal, especially
> the large advance. Besides, he knows a publishing
> company that will take the band on if they get
> signed, and even give them an advance of 20 grand,
> so they'll be making that money too. The manager
> says publishing is pretty mysterious, and nobody
> really knows where all the money comes from, but
> the lawyer can look that contract over too. Hell,
> it's free money.
>
> Their booking agent is excited about the band
> signing to a major. He says they can maybe
> average $1,000 or $2,000 a night from now on.
> That's enough to justify a five week tour, and
> with tour support, they can use a proper crew,
> buy some good equipment and even get a tour bus!
> Buses are pretty expensive, but if you figure in
> the price of a hotel room for everybody In the
> band and crew, they're actually about the same
> cost. Some bands, like Therapy? and Sloan and
> Stereolab) use buses on their tours even when
> they're getting paid only a couple hundred bucks
> a night, and this tour should earn at least a
> grand or two every night. It'll be worth it. The
> band will be more comfortable and will play
> better.
>
> The agent says a band on a major label can get
> a merchandising company to pay them an advance
> on T-shirt sales! Ridiculous! There s a gold mine
> here! The lawyer should look over the
> merchandising contract, just to be safe.
>
> They get drunk at the signing party. Polaroids
> are taken and everybody looks thrilled. The
> label picked them up in a limo.
>
> They decided to go with the producer who used
> to be in Letterman's band. He had these
> technicians come in and tune the drums for
> them and tweak their amps and guitars. He had
> a guy bring in a slew of expensive old "vintage"
> microphones. Boy, were they "warm." He even
> had a guy come in and check the phase of all the
> equipment in the control room! Boy, was he
> professional. He used a bunch of equipment on
> them and by the end of it, they all agreed that
> it sounded very "punchy," yet "warm."
>
> All that hard work paid off. With the help of a
> video, the album went like hotcakes! They sold
> a quarter million copies!
>
> Here is the math that will explain just how
> fucked they are:
>
> These figures are representative of amounts
> that appear in record contracts daily. There's
> no need to skew the figures to make the scenario
> look bad, since real-life examples more than
> abound. income is starred, expenses are not.
>
> Advance: $ 250,000*
> Manager's cut: $ 37,500
> Legal fees: $ 10,000
> Recording Budget: $ 150,000
> Producer s advance: $ 50,000
> Studio fee: $ 52,500
> Drum, Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors": 3,000
> Recording tape: $ 8,000
> Equipment rental: $ 5,000
> Cartage and Transportation: $ 5,000
> Lodgings while in studio: $ 10,000
> Catering: $ 3,000
> Mastering: $ 10,000
> Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping tapes,
> misc. expenses: $ 2,000
>
> Video budget: $ 30,000
> Cameras: $ 8,000
> Crew: $ 5,000
> Processing and transfers: $ 3,000
> Off-line: $ 2,000
> On-line editing: $ 3,000
> Catering: $ 1,000
> Stage and construction: $ 3,000
> Copies, couriers, transportation: $ 2,000
> Director's fee: $ 3,000
>
> Album Artwork: $ 5,000
> Promo photo shoot and duplication:$ 2,000
> Band fund: $ 15,000
> New fancy professional drum kit: $ 5,000
> New fancy pro guitars [2]: $ 3,000
> New fancy pro guitar amp rigs [2]: $ 4,000
> New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar: $ 1,000
> New fancy rack of lights bass amp: $ 1,000
> Rehearsal space rental: $ 500
>
> Big blowout party for their friends: $ 500
>
> Tour gross income: $ 50,000*
> Agent's cut: $ 7,500
> Manager's cut: $ 7,500
> Bus: $ 25,000
> Crew [3]: $ 7,500
> Food and per diems: $ 7,875
> Fuel: $ 3,000
> Consumable supplies: $ 3,500
> Wardrobe: $ 1,000
> Promotion: $ 3,000
> (Tour expense [5 weeks]: $ 50,875 )
>
> Merchandising advance: $ 20,000*
> Manager's cut: $ 3,000
> Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000
>
> Publishing advance: $ 20,000*
> Manager's cut: $ 3,000
> Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000
>
> Record sales: 250,000 @ $12 = $3,000,000
> Gross retail revenue Royalty (13% of 90% of
> retail): $ 351,000
> Less advance: $ 250,000
> Producer's points (3% less $50,000
> advance): $ 40,000
> Promotional budget: $ 25,000
> Recoupable buyout from previous label: $ 50,000
>
> Net royalty: $ -14,000*
>
>
> Record company income:
> Record wholesale price $6.50 x 250,000
> = $1,625,000 gross income
> Artist Royalties: $ 351,000
> Deficit from royalties: $-14,000
> Manufacturing, packaging and distribution
> @ $2.20 per record: $ 550,000
> Gross profit: $ 7l0,000
>
>
> The Balance Sheet: This is how much each
> player got paid at the end of the game.
>
> Record company: $ 710,000
> Producer: $ 90,000
> Manager: $ 51,000
> Studio: $ 52,500
> Previous label: $ 50,000
> Agent: $ 7,500
> Lawyer: $ 12,000
> Band member net income each: $ 4,031.25
>
> The band is now 1/4 of the way through its
> contract, has made the music industry more
> than 3 million dollars richer, but is in the hole
> $14,000 on royalties. The band members have
> each earned about 1/3 as much as they would
> working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a
> tour bus for a month.
>
> The next album will be about the same, except
> that the record company will insist they spend
> more time and money on it. Since the previous
> one never "recouped," the band will have no
> leverage, and will oblige.
>
> The next tour will be about the same, except
> the merchandising advance will have already
> been paid, and the band, strangely enough, won't
> have earned any royalties from their T-shirts
> yet. Maybe the T-shirt guys have figured out
> how to count money like record company guys.
>
> Some of your friends are probably already
> this fucked.
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:48:29 -0700
From: "Kakki"
Subject: Re: Joni and money and albums
MG wrote:
> I would suspect that her contract w/ a record company would have two
> avenues of revenue for her: an advance and royalties.
That is true, but an advance is just that - an advance against future
earnings/royalties. When the earnings come in they are not paid to the artist
until the amount of the advance has been satisfied. If the advance is $100,000
and the royalties only total $50,000, what happens? I'm not sure I know the
answer but did have some friends in that situation once and they were pressured
to pay the balance back to the record company.
> When any artists does not turn a profit, both entities suffer a loss. The
> artist AND the record company. It hits home harder for an artist because
> it is, after all, their job, but it's no picnic for a record company. It's
not a
> write off for them at all. It's an expense of doing business that has a
> negative impact on their bottom line, their ability to secure future funding,
> their leverage when negotiating with vendors, the future of any potential
> IPO's, etc. etc. etc.
It is truly not a write-off as a loss? I've seen record companies
consistently release a certain amount of total rot every year that will
obviously not sell or recoup and they do nothing much to promote it, either.
It seems suspect to me but maybe it's just innocently bad business judgment.
Kakki
------------------------------
End of JMDL Digest V3 #293
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Siquomb, isn't she?