From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #293 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, August 6 1998 Volume 03 : Number 293 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: j files (fwd) - NJC [FredNow@aol.com] barely joni content/idiot content [MP123A321@aol.com] NJC JulieZWebb/Monica whatsit [catman ] Garden TKTS [JAN201@aol.com] Infoseek site [Les Irvin ] RE: record companies & corporations (now NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: NJC JulieZWebb/Monica whatsit ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Re: Reprise [TerryM2442@aol.com] garden [Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org] re: REprise ["Julie Z. Webb" ] LEAD BALLOON [Steve Dulson ] Re: REprise [Michael Heath ] Re: re: REprise ["Reuben Bell3" ] the recording industry is changing I hope (a bit long) [joe horne ] re: REprise ["Don Rowe" ] The Tortured Artist Effect [Les Irvin ] you don't know me, but I'm gonna be there! [Kaye.Conant@ipaper.com] RE: the recording industry is changing I hope -a bit long (sjc) [davina@] Re: LEAD BALLOON [Marsha ] Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!) [Steve Dulson ] Re: Infoseek site [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: Other Songwriters [Bounced Message ] RE: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!) ["Happy The Man" ] Joni and money and albums [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Re: Reprise/Selling Joni ["Kakki" ] The REAL Music Business (long NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: Joni and money and albums ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 04:24:57 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: j files (fwd) - NJC LRFye@aol.com wrote: >>And -- with apologies to those JMDLers who like them -- I can't >>tolerate even 3 seconds of the Beach Boys ... the thought of >>extended listening makes my skin crawl! Lori, you might change your mind hearing my solo piano versions of Brian Wilson's magical tunes. I play them like they were Joni tunes. Once you get away from the bouncy, beachy trappings and just focus on the notes, you're left with very soulful, bittersweet music. - -Fred Simon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 05:54:53 EDT From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: barely joni content/idiot content gdave posted: <> Reading this way too early and skimming the digest because I am envious of the woodstockers...........I read: NORA INN NORA INN................... I'm thinking, they must all be stay at the same motel, the Nora Inn. A view from an half asleep idiot. Maurice " my guitar, my guitar " ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:39:07 +0100 From: catman Subject: NJC JulieZWebb/Monica whatsit On the news they showed a pic of Monica greeting Bill at some rally. My, I thought, that is our Julie from the list!!! No offence meant, Jules, but I have photo of you from the party that someone posted snail mail and the similarity is there. - -- Living is the process whereby we create the structures we call meaning. http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk Carly Simon Discussion List http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:53:47 EDT From: JAN201@aol.com Subject: Garden TKTS Hi again-- I thought I'd sold my 2 extra tickets, but it didn't work out. So if anyone has decided to give in to temptation, let me know! Jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:51:53 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Infoseek site Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 16:53:33 -0400 From: Deb Messling Okay, I read a little more. The Infoseek site is where folks are going to able to view the concert live during the event (you virtual guys will probably have a better view than us attendees!) The ask-the-artist feature will be activated during the event, as will the live chat. Deb Messling Internet Services Librarian Bergen County Cooperative Library System Hackensack, New Jersey http://www.bccls.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 06:59:44 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: RE: record companies & corporations (now NJC) >What I don't understand is how the artist ultimately pays the >entire cost of making the recording (economic *and* artistic), >and somehow the record company ends up owning the >recording, with the artist left with no assets other than the >written songs if they're lucky. > >Is there any other standard financial arrangement in the >Western world that resembles this nonsense? If you want an eye and ear full on this pernicious subject, visit: http://www.nmia.com/~akuria/iiart12.htm Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 07:20:36 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: record companies & corporations (now NJC) >Don, > >Got a Not Found message. > >Jerry > Sorry. I found it on Alta Vista searching "ASCAP + scam" then just copied the URL into the mailer. I guess you could try that ... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:43:39 -0400 From: "Eric G. Postel" Subject: Reprise I have followed the record company thread with interest. It is easy to blame it all on the record companies but I do not think it is so simple. Of course, they have a hand in the problem and I certainly have no love for "Corporate Rock". But, the reality is that unless one hits radio playlists, records do not sell in large volumes because there are thousands of records released each year and most consumers only have limited amounts of money to spend on them. Add in older fans (not the true affionados like all of us) who often get wrapped up in career, hobbies and/or kids, who may not even see any music press and hence might not even know there is a new release and one has the makings of weak sales. In such scenarios unless one either goes on the road to play live (which generates lots of publicity) or undertakes innovative marketing, there is simply no other way to generate sales besides radio. I obviously hope TTT sells for Joni simply because I always wish the best for her. But I think one has to be realistic. A few of the large sales figures I have seen thrown out on JMDL will never happen, unless there was a radio "hit" and I'll bet on that. Joni herself has a hand to play in all this. Her choice not to play the "game" e.g., lots of promotional interviews, going on tour is of course fine with me but it must be recognised for what it is -- her CHOICE. With the choice comes consequences and responsibilities. Ditto for her choice of record company. She could have gone the Ani route or via a smaller record company that would throw everything into it but without having much distribution. But she didn't. So she has to live with the results -- which is something I am confident she understands. For those who are concerned about Reprise, I can make one suggestion. Write to Howie Klein the President and ask him to push TTT and say you will support TTT. Back a while ago when I flirted with the music business (before deciding it was too unpleasant for me), I spent a summer working for Howie. At the time, he had his own little record company. Anybody remember Romeo Void, Translator and Red Rockers. Anyway, I know his tastes used to tend to run a bit more towards punk and other loud, active music with an edge but more than that he is a classical record guy. I do not not expect him to read all the letters or do anything radical but it might remind him people are focussed on TTTT. He'd probably also wonder how the heck people got ahold of him (don't mention me -- he will not remember). Reprise is in NY. Address is on the back of many CDs or via telephone info. Second suggestion, buy lots of copies of TTT and give them to friends. I support blues musicians by buying ten concert tickets when they come to Madison, giving 9 to the radio station to give away. Sales of the tickets put money into the pockets of the artist, the giveaways get them airplay. If each JMDLer buys 5 copies of TTT and gives 4 away, it quintuples Joni's revenues, encourages the record company that TTT can sell and turns 4 others onto Joni's current body of work. And if one's friends are only into Metallica, give the copies to local radio stations and reviewers and ask them to play or write about it. Bottom line, there are things WE can do as well to help Joni. Cheers, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 10:56:09 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: NJC JulieZWebb/Monica whatsit At 01:39 PM 8/6/98 +0100, you wrote: >On the news they showed a pic of Monica greeting Bill at some rally. My, >I thought, that is our Julie from the list!!! >No offence meant, Jules, but I have photo of you from the party that >someone posted snail mail and the similarity is there. EVERYBODY is telling me this---our Fishpond Bev...or was it Heather, no Heather thinks Im a Laura Nyro "separated at birth" candidate....Even my young son: When Monica's face was "blown" up (no pun intended) on the cover of 'Newsweek,' my six year old said, "Mom, that lady looks like you." . Well, ah, maybe I looked more like her when I was younger ...and I have brown eyes, not blue...but if you'd ask me my self-aggrandizing opinion, I feel that I looked more like an Alanis Morrisette in my hippie days with my long, wavy Carole King hair..... On a bad day, I feel like I can pass for "Laugh-In's" Ruth Buzzi with a fall. My sister's old boyfriend, who I didn't much care for and made no secret of it, recently phoned my now happily married sister and mentioned that he finds it annoying that everywhere he looks he is reminded of me when he sees Monica's face. One of investor's wives made mention of this to me at a board meeting of all places...... -JulieZW, just your average...brown eyed girl ps, The latest cover of the former Andy Warhol's "Interview" has a blond guy on the cover who somehow captures the sulking, handsome essence of our Michael Yarbrough.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:58:16 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Reprise Eric, Those are wonderful suggestions! Don't forget, too, to call the local radio stations, asking for airplay. I will purchase a bunch of the CDs when they come out, give some away to friends and the rest to radio stations. And if she does tour, I'll be happy to buy a group of seats! Terry, wishing and hoping ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:59:10 -0400 From: Tortorici@exchange.conference-board.org Subject: garden For some reason, I'm not on the garden list--although I posted I was going weeks ago. Please add. Thanks Frank Tortorici P.S. I'm covering the entire 3 days for Addicted To Noise. They're especially interested in JM and Day Three. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:51:39 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: re: REprise At 10:43 AM 8/6/98 -0400, Eric wrote: >Joni herself has a hand to play in all >this. Her choice not to play the "game" e.g., lots of promotional >interviews, going on tour is of course fine with me but it must be >recognised for what it is -- her CHOICE. With the choice comes >consequences and responsibilities. So she has to live with the results -- which is something I am >confident she understands. Eric, She may understand this on some level, but on another level I think she's in denial. If not, she wouldn't make comments like the one in MOJO: "It's hard to say, because the last 20 years I've had no record company support, no radio support - the marketplace has been denied me, so I think a lot of those records, there's a bigger audience for it than it received." First of all, I have reason to believe that Joni is not reading the posts from this list. (And we jmdlers constantly speculating the motivation of Joni is an exercise in groping in the dark, so now that I've named it, let me grope here.... ;~D ) ... It's my guess that she is a wealthy woman who doesn't necessarily have to work so hard to bring home the bacon these days, and it's far easier to view the "industry" as the big problem. "Playing the game" isn't a bad thing, is it? We're not talking about the casting couch here? There are ways to play and ways to be consumed.... When your profession is that of a performer isn't performing part of your passion? Aren't interviews, media attention, reaching out to your fans part of the package? It's a real conflict of interest to be burdened with the very things that are an essential part of your craft. I personally think that painters who profit from their work have it made. -JulieZW, who would never dream of asking Cassat to paint "The Bath" again, man ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:03:01 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: LEAD BALLOON The Estimable Mr. Breese wrote: >Here are the beginning lines for each song: >LEAD BALLOON >"Kiss my ass!" I said >and I threw my drink Which recalls the delicious in-jokes of the "Hits" (AKA "Over My Dead Body") and "Misses" (AKA "Kiss My Ass") cover photos. I wonder if Joni's cover concepts occured concurrently with the writing of "Lead Balloon"? Thanks to all for the birthday greetings! :) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 08:57:26 -0700 From: Michael Heath Subject: Re: REprise Julie Z. Webb wrote: > First of all, I have reason to believe that Joni is not reading the > posts from this list. (And we jmdlers constantly speculating the motivation > of Joni is an exercise in groping in the dark, so now that I've named it, > let me grope here.... ;~D ) > ... It's my guess that she is a wealthy woman who doesn't necessarily have > to work so hard to bring home the bacon these days, and it's far easier to > view the "industry" as the big problem. the thumb and satchel or the rented rolls royce... When she was giving a reading of her lyrics and poetry at the Sechelt Writer's Festival and taking questions from the audience, she responded to a question asking whether she was wealthy from her works. She replied that she had a couple of nice houses and cars, but that she wasn't in any way "posh" or something. Then she descibed the amount of money it takes to record and tour and how people don't realize that you can be quite famous and still not be rich. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:57:48 -0400 From: "Reuben Bell3" Subject: Re: re: REprise I agree with Julie on this. I have followed Joni in print for a lot of years now, and she has a huge chip on her shoulder where the media is concerned (I am not justifying or devaluing this, by the way). Whenever her lack of sales is involved, Joni is always dragging out the same aging list of people and events that have ruined her shot at mainstream success. I remember an article in which she said (loosely referring to the Mingus project) that if she had been able to release her albums under a new persona and name every single time, that all of them would have been certified major hits. I do not believe this. Popular music especially seems to go in cycles, and what is huge this year may have been totally ignored if it had come out LAST year. Its very fickle. What I have always liked about Joni is that she doesn't seem to be too concerned with what is sellling, or is likely to sell, or not to sell when she releases her music. Lets face it, this huts her a bit sometime. I personally think it makes her a true artist. Reuben who is really, really, REALLY wanting to hear "Lead Balloon". How many more days until TTT??? Eric, She may understand this on some level, but on another level I think she's in denial. If not, she wouldn't make comments like the one in MOJO: "It's hard to say, because the last 20 years I've had no record company support, no radio support - the marketplace has been denied me, so I think a lot of those records, there's a bigger audience for it than it received." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:08:49 -0700 (PDT) From: joe horne Subject: the recording industry is changing I hope (a bit long) ALl the posts about records sales, record labels, and the music business in general have been enlightening and interesting. I;m convinced that most record companies will disappear (the ones we know today) and hopefully, what will emerge, will be lots of small independent artists that do their own stuff like Ani Difranco and Jane Sibery. It would be more lucrative for Joni to dump her label and do it herself (with the help of Wally and the rest of us). Our group seems much more interested in doing things for Joni that her record company. Hopefully (as Wally mentioned earlier), the record company will work harder. But I also know how record companies are. They are a business. The bottom line is all that matters to them, no matter what they say. When I was in college I worked at Turtles (bought out by BlockBuster). When Sam Phillips was getting ready to release "Martinis and Bikinis" I called the record company every day requesting promotional materials (I wanted to create a big display of photos and have a promo copy of the CD to play in the store). They sent the materials (about a month after the release of the album). They didn't return my calls. It was frustrating. All of Sam's albums have sold very poorly (and I could have changed all that with my single in store display!) :) Well, you get the idea. I;ve got to go and write some technical documents. Thanks for listening.... joejoejoejoejoejoejoe _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 12:34:34 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: REprise At 08:57 AM 8/6/98 -0700, Cul wrote: >She replied that she had a couple of nice houses and cars, but that she wasn't >in any way "posh" or something. Then she descibed the amount of money it takes to record and >tour and how people don't realize that you can be quite famous and still not be rich. Ok, she's not rich in the eyes of some, and may need to work... I don't care about her finances. I mentioned the "loaded" $$ word because I thought we were discussing/speculating the role of the record company and the motivation of the artist in terms of a lucrative yet meaningful career. Bottom line, is that Im thrilled that she is finally touring again so we can experience more of her music. -Julie, who merely wonders about the shadows and light.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 09:50:54 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: re: REprise I'll agree that a lot of what you hear and read about Joni's view on her record company's performance sounds a bit like denial and excuse making. But I think for whatever reason, there's been a lot of missed opportunities for Joni to recapture and/or expand her audience ... one big one that comes to mind is the early 1980's music video explosion. For a couple of years there, if you made a good video that got on MTV, people went out and bought your album -- lots of the '80s bands got made that way. And it seems that given Joni's dual interests in visual + musical art -- it would have been natural! Of course, that now probably brings up costs of video production etc. etc. Has she ever commented on this? Just curious ... Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:02:20 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: The Tortured Artist Effect Hi Joniphiles - I just added a new interview to the website - it's a piece done in Ireland in 1983 (many thanks to Philip!). It's an interesting interview for many reasons. One response of Joni's in particular that I enjoyed was her explanation of the "tortured artist effect": "Writing is a private business. If you're having a good time, you're less likely to be writing about it. Joy, I find a very evasive thing to describe. You live it out, it's very present tense, whereas the things that go wrong require scrutiny and wallowing. Driven into seclusiveness by some uncomfortable moment, the easiest thing is to take it apart and write about it. I guess it's a form of therapy and that's what a lot of my work is about." That's always been a question I wanted her to answer... now she has. Only took me 15 years to find it. :-) You can read the interview by going to the articles page: http://www.jmdl.com/articles/ and scrolling down to 1983. back to our regularly scheduled program... Les NP: John Martyn - "The Church With One Bell" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:02:29 -0500 From: Kaye.Conant@ipaper.com Subject: you don't know me, but I'm gonna be there! > Look over the list below. The Yarn Kollection [Mendi] > isn't on it, yet I know she is coming. From what I understand Marsha, > Julie, and Kakki aren't attending but wanted to be in on the scoop. If you > are on this list and also being voyeuristic, please write so we can compile > a list of those who are definitely attending. Hey, I'm a new JMDLer and I'll be attending the concert with one other friend. Please stick my name on the list (Katie Conant & Mary Costello (). I'll be looking for everyone at Don's RV. I've been pretty much obsessed with Joni for awhile now and it'll be great to be around people who like her stuff as much as I do. I look forward to seeing everybody. Woo-hoo!!! Katie (Green Bay, WI) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:00:41 -0700 From: davina@pacificsw.com (Davina Greenstein) Subject: RE: the recording industry is changing I hope -a bit long (sjc) >Joe wrote I called the record company every day requesting promotional materials (I wanted to create a big display of photos and have a promo copy of the CD to play in the store). They sent the materials (about a month after the release of the album). I live in Los Angeles and really have to hand it to Tower Records. When Hits and Misses came out, as well as TI, the store had huge displays of the new CDs along with promotional posters on a properly displayed endcap. I hope the same is done for TTT. Tower and Virgin are really huge in this market and Joni really needs this visibility. Not all record stores are on top of things, but Tower Records really does a nice job. I suppose they have in-roads into the record label promotional depts. ::Davina secretly plotting how to get a Joni TTT promotional poster :):::::: np: Led Zep BBC Sessions - -----Original Message----- From: owner-joni@smoe.org [mailto:owner-joni@smoe.org] On Behalf Of joe horne Sent: Thursday, August 06, 1998 9:09 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: the recording industry is changing I hope (a bit long) ALl the posts about records sales, record labels, and the music business in general have been enlightening and interesting. I;m convinced that most record companies will disappear (the ones we know today) and hopefully, what will emerge, will be lots of small independent artists that do their own stuff like Ani Difranco and Jane Sibery. It would be more lucrative for Joni to dump her label and do it herself (with the help of Wally and the rest of us). Our group seems much more interested in doing things for Joni that her record company. Hopefully (as Wally mentioned earlier), the record company will work harder. But I also know how record companies are. They are a business. The bottom line is all that matters to them, no matter what they say. When I was in college I worked at Turtles (bought out by BlockBuster). When Sam Phillips was getting ready to release "Martinis and Bikinis" I called the record company every day requesting promotional materials (I wanted to create a big display of photos and have a promo copy of the CD to play in the store). They sent the materials (about a month after the release of the album). They didn't return my calls. It was frustrating. All of Sam's albums have sold very poorly (and I could have changed all that with my single in store display!) :) Well, you get the idea. I;ve got to go and write some technical documents. Thanks for listening.... joejoejoejoejoejoejoe _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:04:21 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Re: LEAD BALLOON Steve Dulson wrote: > > Which recalls the delicious in-jokes of the "Hits" (AKA "Over My Dead > Body") and "Misses" (AKA "Kiss My Ass") cover photos. I wonder if Joni's > cover concepts occured concurrently with the writing of "Lead Balloon"? And don't forget the horse's ass on the For the Roses music book cover... Joni's been sticking it to "the man" for years with her visual depictions of the industry. She uses all methods of communication for airing her grievance: Words in Print Words in Music Photos and Paintings Good going, Joan MoP, humming Lead Balloon, lead balloon, lead balloon, p.s. Happy belated, Steverino aka Swami! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:15:41 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!) There, I've gone and invented a new acronym (Almost Zero Joni Content). Last night I went to the Troubadour, in West Hollywood, to see Gillian Welch and David Rawlings. A quick check of my concert database revealed that it had been TWENTY-THREE years since I'd been to the venerable Troub. (Boring nostalgia follows!) Here's who I've seen there in the past, first number is "This is the (number) time I've seen this artist", last number is my rating on a 1 to 5 scale, with * for extra good stuff) 1 Clayton, Merry Troubadour West Hollywood 9/24/70 4 1 Davis, Spencer Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 4 1 Dillards, The Troubadour West Hollywood 8/21/70 4 2 Goodman, Steve Troubadour West Hollywood 9/20/75 5 2 Hicks, Dan & Hot Licks TroubadourWest Hollywood7/25/71 5 1 Higgins, Dee Troubadour West Hollywood 10/25/70 3 1 Jo Mama Troubadour West Hollywood 7/25/71 4 1 Kolac, Bonnie Troubadour West Hollywood 9/20/75 4 1 Krisstofferson, KrisTroubadour West Hollywood 6/14/71 4 1 Lightfoot, GordonTroubadour West Hollywood 10/25/70 4* 2 Lightfoot, GordonTroubadour West Hollywood 1/7/72 4* 1 Longbranch/Pennywhistle TroubadourWest Hollywood8/21/70 3 1 Mathews, Ian Troubadour West Hollywood 9/12/71 4 1 Miller, Roger Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 4 2 Near, Holly Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 4 3 Near, Holly Troubadour West Hollywood 9/20/75 4 1 Newman, Randy Troubadour West Hollywood 9/12/71 5* 1 Ochs, Phil Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 4 1 Pickett, Bobby "Boris" TroubadourWest Hollywood8/31/75 4 1 Reddy, Helen Troubadour West Hollywood 6/14/71 3 1 Seatrain Troubadour West Hollywood 12/8/70 4 2 Sebastian, John Troubadour West Hollywood 9/24/70 4* 1 Sill, Judee Troubadour West Hollywood 1/7/72 4* 1 Stevens, Cat Troubadour West Hollywood 12/8/70 5 5 Waits, Tom Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 4 1 Whitcomb, Ian Troubadour West Hollywood 8/31/75 3 (Longbranch/Pennywhistle was, if memory serves, J. D. Souther and Glen Frey, pre Eagles) Boy, has the Troubadour changed! In the '70s the downstairs was long tables, perpendicular to the stage, where you were packed in like sardines, but quite acceptable. Upstairs was where the industry bigwigs got to sit. Now, a long bar has been inserted, parallel to the stage, and about 20 feet away from it. In fornt of the bar is *nothing*, well, a dance floor. In back of the bar are some tables. Totally without conscious thought Michele and I, and our friends Jessie and Erin, are swept up the stairs to where there are four rows of bench seats, seating just *44* people. We were the last ones to get seats. If you came later, you could stand and see the show, or sit behind the bar and see people's backs. Ich. It used to be a classy joint. Now it's a heavy-metal/alternative club, with "NO STAGE DIVING" signs everywhere. Sigh. Owner Doug Weston had, maybe still has, a policy where, the first time you play the club, you sign a contract saying something like "I agree to play x nights at the Troubadour within the next x years, when Mr. Weston desires it, for the same pay I'm getting tonight." Which was how he had people like Newman and Lightfoot playing the room long after they'd moved on to bigger and better venues. As a young folkie would sell his/her grandmother to get a Troub gig, this was no problem for them. So this is why Joni played a sold-out 4 or 5 night stand at the Troub in '68 or '69. Whew - got to the AZJC! Dar is playing there in December - don't think I'll go. I might miss one of the 44 seats, and I be too old to stand for a whole show anymore! ps David and Gillian were wonderful! Two sets of their voices, guitars and banjo. Not a dud song all evening. I said to Gillian afterwards "The new CD is so non-commercial, it's wonderful!" "Yeah," she said, "we weren't exactly going for major airplay on this one." Check them out! Sorry for the blather! We now return to your regular list, in progress... ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:24:36 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!) Merry Clayton!!?? Now that really is nostalgia! The last time I heard of her was as The Gypsy Queen on the Royal Philharmonic recording of Tommy. Jerry np: Sunset Blvd. - London cast ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:49:52 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: TTT Promos (WAs RE: the recording industry is changing I hope -a bit long (sjc)) My local music shop always has these cardboard 8" x 8" cards of recent album releases on their windows. I called them up one day and asked them if I could buy some and they said they charge a measly $1 for each! So when TTT rolls around, I'll buy 'em all and send 'em out to anyone who wants them! ;) LIMH: "My friends were calling up all day yesterday..." >>Joe wrote > >I called the record company every day requesting promotional materials >(I wanted to create a big display of photos and have a promo copy of >the CD to play in the store). They sent the materials (about a month >after the release of the album). > ____________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |__________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:11:21 -0500 From: Diana Duncan Subject: Re: Infoseek site At 07:51 AM 8/6/1998 -0600, Les Irvin wrote: >Okay, I read a little more. The Infoseek site is where folks are going to >able to view the concert live during the event (you virtual guys will >probably have a better view than us attendees!) >The ask-the-artist feature will be activated during the event, as will the >live chat. Do you have to purchase that "Real Player" to see this? Seems awfully expensive! Diana, with the tight purse strings ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 98 18:24:11 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Infoseek site Hi Diana, RealPlayer, like Netscape Communicator, is available FREE OF CHARGE. They just make it exceptionally hard to find the free download page, and bombard you with service & support options (for which they charge) that are *real easy* to see. I personally couldn't see myself *enjoying* a concert on my PC, the technology seems so primitive, but I suppose it would be better than nothing! :-) Here's the link to the free download page: http://www.real.com/products/player/downloadrealplayer.html?wp=dl0898&src=downlo adr,v3 -Kenny On 8/6/98 2:11PM, Diana Duncan wrote: Do you have to purchase that "Real Player" to see this? Seems awfully expensive! Diana, with the tight purse strings At 07:51 AM 8/6/1998 -0600, Les Irvin wrote: >Okay, I read a little more. The Infoseek site is where folks are going to >able to view the concert live during the event (you virtual guys will >probably have a better view than us attendees!) >The ask-the-artist feature will be activated during the event, as will the >live chat. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 12:40:02 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Other Songwriters Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:23:46 -0400 From: Chris Thorpe I will take a stab at this one, two songs come to mind, Van Morrison's "A Town Called Paradise" and John Gorka's "Flying Red Horse". Fellow Marylander here, near Columbia. - -- chris John Gorka Discussion List (thanks Colin) http://www.erols.com/haviland/gorka.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:49:03 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: RE: Of Time And The Troubadour (AZJC)(LONG!) What other Southern California venue had the long table during the 70's only to be torn down in the late 80's? Steve Wrote: Boy, has the Troubadour changed! In the '70s the downstairs was long tables, perpendicular to the stage, where you were packed in like sardines, but quite acceptable. Upstairs was where the industry bigwigs got to sit. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 12:11:50 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: An Amusing Top 10 List (NJC) Top Ten Signs Your Co-Worker Is A Computer Hacker: 10. Everyone who ticks him off gets a $26,000 phone bill. 9. He's won the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes three years running. 8. When asked for his phone number, he gives it in BinHex. 7. Seems strangely calm whenever the office LAN goes down. 6. Somehow gets HBO on his PC at work. 5. Mumbled, "Oh, puh-leeeez!" 295 times during the movie "The Net." 4. Massive 401k contribution made in half-cent increments. 3. His video dating profile lists "public-key encryption" among turn-ons. 2. Instead of the "Welcome" voice on AOL, you overhear, "Good Morning, Mr. President." And the Number One sign your co-worker is a computer hacker... 1. You hear him murmur, "Let's see you use that Mastercard now, Professor I-Don't-Give-A's-In-Computer-Science!" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:11:28 -0700 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Joni and money and albums From bits and pieces on the list about how Joni makes, (or doesn't make), money...... The way I've been reading doesn't seem to make much sense to me in that before Joni can turn a profit, the production expense is paid back. I would suspect that her contract w/ a record company would have two avenues of revenue for her: an advance and royalties. She gets up-front money and has to produce a certain amount of work in a certain period of time. Her advance is part of the album's expense. But, she has the dough and does not have to wait for royalties to roll in. The record company pays the production costs from their AP department. Royalties can be calculated in a variety of ways. You can have royalties on gross sales, royalties on gross sales net of returns: there are 101 creative ways to manipulate the dollar figure of what the albums are pulling in and it takes a savvy artist or one with a savvy business person to cut the best deal. When any artists does not turn a profit, both entities suffer a loss. The artist AND the record company. It hits home harder for an artist because it is, after all, their job, but it's no picnic for a record company. It's not a write off for them at all. It's an expense of doing business that has a negative impact on their bottom line, their ability to secure future funding, their leverage when negotiating with vendors, the future of any potential IPO's, etc. etc. etc. Sometimes it seems that Joni is a prisoner of her talent and artistic freedom. The jailer is the current economics and practices of the music business. And that's how I see it from the world of accounting..... MG ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:06:42 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Southern California venue (NJC) >What other Southern California venue had the long table during the 70's only >to be torn down in the late 80's? The Golden Bear, in Huntington Beach. What a loss! ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:09:51 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Reprise/Selling Joni Terry wrote re Eric's post: > Those are wonderful suggestions! Don't forget, too, to call the local radio > stations, asking for airplay. I think it would be fun for us to come up with a little "marketing" plan and then do a some tracking to see if we help make a dent in the charts for TTT in the first critical weeks. Since we are from all over the place we've potentially got a lot of territory covered already. Everyone could make calls in their regions. > I will purchase a bunch of the CDs when they come out, give some away to > friends and the rest to radio stations. If we can order copies in advance from CD Now or Music Boulevard, we should do so through the JMDL site so Les can benefit, too. Or we could purchase our first copy from the record store and then order the additional copies through the site. I'm wondering if the TTT package will include a "Crackerjack surprise" like the little tin ear that came in limited editions of TI? Wonder what it might be - maybe a miniature paintbrush or plastic tiger?! Kakki NP: Liv Taylor - Our Turn To Dance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 13:28:41 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: The REAL Music Business (long NJC) This is a salient, and I'm sorry so long, article written by Steve Albini, a big fish Seattle music biz type. Kind of eye-opening, and in light of the current discussions, thought I'd repost it for everyone. Sorry for the bandwidth, but it really is worth it. Don Rowe II.There's This Band > > There's this band. They're pretty ordinary, but > they're also pretty good, so they've attracted some > attention. They're signed to a moderate-sized > "independent" label owned by a distribution > company, and they have another two albums > owed to the label. > > They're a little ambitious. They'd like to get > signed by a major label so they can have some > security you know, get some good equipment, tour > in a proper tour bus -- nothing fancy, just a little > reward for all the hard work. > > To that end, they got a manager. He knows some > of the label guys, and he can shop their next > project to all the right people. He takes his cut, > sure, but it's only 15%, and if he can get them > signed then it's money well spent. Anyways, it > doesn't cost them anything if it doesn't work. > 15% of nothing isn't much! > > One day an A & R scout calls them, says he's > been following them for a while now, and when > their manager mentioned them to him, it just > "clicked." Would they like to meet with him about > the possibility of working out a deal with his > label? Wow. Big Break time. > > They meet the guy, and y'know what -- he's not > what they expected from a label guy. He's young > and dresses pretty much like the band does. He > knows all their favorite bands. He's like one of > them. He tells them he wants to go to bat for > them, to try to get them everything they want. > He says anything is possible with the right > attitude. They conclude the evening by taking > home a copy of a deal memo they wrote out > and signed on the spot. > > The A & R guy was full of great ideas, even > talked about using a name producer. Butch Vig > is out of the question-he wants 100 g's and three > points, but they can get Don Fleming for $30,000 > plus three points. Even that's a little steep, so > maybe they'll go with that guy who used to be in > David Letterman's band. He only wants three > points. Or they can have just anybody record it > (like Warton Tiers, maybe-- cost you 5 or 7 grand) > and have Andy Wallace remix it for 4 grand a > track plus 2 points. It was a lot to think about. > > Well, they like this guy and they trust him. > Besides, they already signed the deal memo. > He must have been serious about wanting them > to sign. They break the news to their current > label, and the label manager says he wants them > to succeed, so they have his blessing. He will > need to be compensated, of course, for the > remaining albums left on their contract, but > he'll work it out with the label himself. Sub Pop > made millions from selling off Nirvana, and > Twin Tone hasn't done bad either: 50 grand for > the Babes In Toyland and 60 grand for the Poster > Children-- without having to sell a single > additional record. It'll be something modest. > The new label doesn't mind, so long as it's > recoupable out of royalties (meaning the band > pays the label back for "buying" them). > > Well, they get the final contract, and it's not > quite what they expected. They figure it's better > to be safe than sorry and they turn it over to a > lawyer --one who says he's experienced in > entertainment law and he hammers out a few > bugs. They're still not sure about it, but the > lawyer says he's seen a lot of contracts, and > theirs is pretty good. There'll be great royalty: > 13% (less a 1O% packaging deduction). Wasn't it > Buffalo Tom that were only getting 12% less > 10%, too? Whatever. > > The old label only wants 50 grand, an no points. > Hell, Sub Pop got 3 points when they let Nirvana > go. They're signed for four years, with options on > each year, for a total of over a million dollars! > That's a lot of money in any man's English. The > first year's advance alone is $250,000. Just think > about it, a quarter million, just for being in a > rock band! > > Their manager thinks it's a great deal, especially > the large advance. Besides, he knows a publishing > company that will take the band on if they get > signed, and even give them an advance of 20 grand, > so they'll be making that money too. The manager > says publishing is pretty mysterious, and nobody > really knows where all the money comes from, but > the lawyer can look that contract over too. Hell, > it's free money. > > Their booking agent is excited about the band > signing to a major. He says they can maybe > average $1,000 or $2,000 a night from now on. > That's enough to justify a five week tour, and > with tour support, they can use a proper crew, > buy some good equipment and even get a tour bus! > Buses are pretty expensive, but if you figure in > the price of a hotel room for everybody In the > band and crew, they're actually about the same > cost. Some bands, like Therapy? and Sloan and > Stereolab) use buses on their tours even when > they're getting paid only a couple hundred bucks > a night, and this tour should earn at least a > grand or two every night. It'll be worth it. The > band will be more comfortable and will play > better. > > The agent says a band on a major label can get > a merchandising company to pay them an advance > on T-shirt sales! Ridiculous! There s a gold mine > here! The lawyer should look over the > merchandising contract, just to be safe. > > They get drunk at the signing party. Polaroids > are taken and everybody looks thrilled. The > label picked them up in a limo. > > They decided to go with the producer who used > to be in Letterman's band. He had these > technicians come in and tune the drums for > them and tweak their amps and guitars. He had > a guy bring in a slew of expensive old "vintage" > microphones. Boy, were they "warm." He even > had a guy come in and check the phase of all the > equipment in the control room! Boy, was he > professional. He used a bunch of equipment on > them and by the end of it, they all agreed that > it sounded very "punchy," yet "warm." > > All that hard work paid off. With the help of a > video, the album went like hotcakes! They sold > a quarter million copies! > > Here is the math that will explain just how > fucked they are: > > These figures are representative of amounts > that appear in record contracts daily. There's > no need to skew the figures to make the scenario > look bad, since real-life examples more than > abound. income is starred, expenses are not. > > Advance: $ 250,000* > Manager's cut: $ 37,500 > Legal fees: $ 10,000 > Recording Budget: $ 150,000 > Producer s advance: $ 50,000 > Studio fee: $ 52,500 > Drum, Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors": 3,000 > Recording tape: $ 8,000 > Equipment rental: $ 5,000 > Cartage and Transportation: $ 5,000 > Lodgings while in studio: $ 10,000 > Catering: $ 3,000 > Mastering: $ 10,000 > Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping tapes, > misc. expenses: $ 2,000 > > Video budget: $ 30,000 > Cameras: $ 8,000 > Crew: $ 5,000 > Processing and transfers: $ 3,000 > Off-line: $ 2,000 > On-line editing: $ 3,000 > Catering: $ 1,000 > Stage and construction: $ 3,000 > Copies, couriers, transportation: $ 2,000 > Director's fee: $ 3,000 > > Album Artwork: $ 5,000 > Promo photo shoot and duplication:$ 2,000 > Band fund: $ 15,000 > New fancy professional drum kit: $ 5,000 > New fancy pro guitars [2]: $ 3,000 > New fancy pro guitar amp rigs [2]: $ 4,000 > New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar: $ 1,000 > New fancy rack of lights bass amp: $ 1,000 > Rehearsal space rental: $ 500 > > Big blowout party for their friends: $ 500 > > Tour gross income: $ 50,000* > Agent's cut: $ 7,500 > Manager's cut: $ 7,500 > Bus: $ 25,000 > Crew [3]: $ 7,500 > Food and per diems: $ 7,875 > Fuel: $ 3,000 > Consumable supplies: $ 3,500 > Wardrobe: $ 1,000 > Promotion: $ 3,000 > (Tour expense [5 weeks]: $ 50,875 ) > > Merchandising advance: $ 20,000* > Manager's cut: $ 3,000 > Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000 > > Publishing advance: $ 20,000* > Manager's cut: $ 3,000 > Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000 > > Record sales: 250,000 @ $12 = $3,000,000 > Gross retail revenue Royalty (13% of 90% of > retail): $ 351,000 > Less advance: $ 250,000 > Producer's points (3% less $50,000 > advance): $ 40,000 > Promotional budget: $ 25,000 > Recoupable buyout from previous label: $ 50,000 > > Net royalty: $ -14,000* > > > Record company income: > Record wholesale price $6.50 x 250,000 > = $1,625,000 gross income > Artist Royalties: $ 351,000 > Deficit from royalties: $-14,000 > Manufacturing, packaging and distribution > @ $2.20 per record: $ 550,000 > Gross profit: $ 7l0,000 > > > The Balance Sheet: This is how much each > player got paid at the end of the game. > > Record company: $ 710,000 > Producer: $ 90,000 > Manager: $ 51,000 > Studio: $ 52,500 > Previous label: $ 50,000 > Agent: $ 7,500 > Lawyer: $ 12,000 > Band member net income each: $ 4,031.25 > > The band is now 1/4 of the way through its > contract, has made the music industry more > than 3 million dollars richer, but is in the hole > $14,000 on royalties. The band members have > each earned about 1/3 as much as they would > working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a > tour bus for a month. > > The next album will be about the same, except > that the record company will insist they spend > more time and money on it. Since the previous > one never "recouped," the band will have no > leverage, and will oblige. > > The next tour will be about the same, except > the merchandising advance will have already > been paid, and the band, strangely enough, won't > have earned any royalties from their T-shirts > yet. Maybe the T-shirt guys have figured out > how to count money like record company guys. > > Some of your friends are probably already > this fucked. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:48:29 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni and money and albums MG wrote: > I would suspect that her contract w/ a record company would have two > avenues of revenue for her: an advance and royalties. That is true, but an advance is just that - an advance against future earnings/royalties. When the earnings come in they are not paid to the artist until the amount of the advance has been satisfied. If the advance is $100,000 and the royalties only total $50,000, what happens? I'm not sure I know the answer but did have some friends in that situation once and they were pressured to pay the balance back to the record company. > When any artists does not turn a profit, both entities suffer a loss. The > artist AND the record company. It hits home harder for an artist because > it is, after all, their job, but it's no picnic for a record company. It's not a > write off for them at all. It's an expense of doing business that has a > negative impact on their bottom line, their ability to secure future funding, > their leverage when negotiating with vendors, the future of any potential > IPO's, etc. etc. etc. It is truly not a write-off as a loss? I've seen record companies consistently release a certain amount of total rot every year that will obviously not sell or recoup and they do nothing much to promote it, either. It seems suspect to me but maybe it's just innocently bad business judgment. Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #293 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?