From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #267 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, July 20 1998 Volume 03 : Number 267 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: to buy or not to buy? bootlegs, etc. [catman ] Crime in NOLA and tape trees [Howard Motyl ] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees [Bill Dollinger ] Post on Olga and Harry Fox (NJC) [Bill Dollinger ] Release of TTT [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Conscience (NJC) [Marsha ] Re: Post on Olga and Harry Fox (NJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Sessions @ W. 54th (changed to NJC) [Wolfebite@aol.com] JM in Chicago [Bounced Message ] Tidbit to share [Jill Tamada ] [none] [owner-joni@smoe.org] NJC - Carly Simon list! [Les Irvin ] re: Teen Ethics in Los Angeles [Don Sloan ] Morality, Teen Ethics [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Conscience (NJC) [Don Sloan ] my last RE: Teen Ethics in Los Angeles [Don Sloan ] Re: NJC - Carly Simon list! [catman ] Bootlegs vs Pirates ["Don Rowe" ] Interesting item on eBay web site item#21253460: Joni Mitchell Big Yellow Taxi/Friends REMIX [] Interesting item on eBay web site item#21252835: JANET JACKSON & JONI MITCHELL TOGETHER CD [] Interesting item on eBay web site item#21254044: RARE IMPORT JANET JACKSON & JONI MITCHELL [] Re: tape trees [Phyliss Ward ] advice needed [Robbert ] Re: Spam from eBay web site [Bill Dollinger ] Re: Spam from eBay web site ["Don Rowe" ] Fwd: to buy or not to buy? bootlegs, etc. [ORLTed@aol.com] Re: The Unfiltered Joni Mitchell - Part 2 (Mojo 8/98) [Rob Jordan ] Re: Spam from eBay web site [Susan McNamara ] Re: Fwd: to buy or not to buy? bootlegs, etc. [catman Subject: Re: to buy or not to buy? bootlegs, etc. Don-what a job! I couldn't do it. I understand this business of victim mentality and lack of personal responsibility. However, I believe if these kidss are brought up in a society that does not value them, where they do not get the nurturing they need and do not get the respect they need then problems will arise. If they do not feel valued, respected and have no self esteem then how can they show such to others? In my own case, if I had not been beaten senseless and therefore grew very afraid, I might well have turned into one of these deliquents who don't give a shit myself. I think i was lucky.(i was also shown love by the occasional neighbour, and I am sure that helped). In my teens 16 to 22, i was looked after on the street by the 'scum'-the prossies, the addicts etc. They took care of me, made sure I had a roof over over me and food. They kept me safe, threatening those who tried to take advantage, kept me off drugs and off the 'game'. Where I live there is much crime, we also have had a lot of homophobic abuse-car damage and bricks thru window. Yes, it gets me very angry. BUT I am also angry at the 'adults, because these kids are not loved or respected. Kids as young as 8 are still out at midnight. Many parents are drunk or high all the time, you see them hanging out at the off licence(liquor store). We had a woman live next door who was drunk all the time-her two little girls were often out on their own-no clothes filthy etc. The social services did not want to know. there is little chance those girls are going to grow up respecting themsleves or anyone else and it will be very hard to give them any sense of persoanl responsibilty. I, as an adult, see authority figures evade personal responsibilty all the time. many don't even know what it means. i am not excusing those you work for, but I do feel for them. bw colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:13:17 +0100 From: catman Subject: TTT Release Date Despite Tower and CDZone saying the album was released today, I telphoned Warner and they told me that the release date is 28th September. It was going to be released today but now isn't! colin - -- Living is the process whereby we create the structures we call meaning. http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk Carly Simon Discussion List http://ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:01:08 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Crime in NOLA and tape trees 1. I was working on a documentary last year that took me to New Orleans. I was interviewing a blood spatter analyst (who happens to be a woman and one of the most respected crime scene analysts in Louisiana, if not the South) and she told me about a police cheif from a parish outside of NOLA who was walking just on the outskirts of the French Quarter when he was attacked. He wasn't murdered, mind you, but his face was . . . well, it wasn't pretty. The evening before I heard this story I went for a run around the perimeter of the Quarter and then, walked the streets alone to go to the movies. The cops told me the crime is all drug-related. 2. Ok, ok. I don't understand the tape trees and where/how I get added to one. Help. - -- Howard Motyl Producer, MPI Teleproductions 16101 South 108th Avenue Orland Park, IL 60462 708-873-3190 708.873.3177 Fax http://www.mpimedia.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:19:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees The central purpose of tape trees is the sharing of music by fans who simply can't get enough music by an artist or group. The central purpose of bootlegging is to take advantage of the fact that these people exist so someone can make big bucks at the expense of the artist. I would put these profiteers in a special place in hell right next to scalpers and the Harry Fox Agency (see related article). If joni hasn't objected, I say we have an obligation to continue the tape tree if for no other reason than to take away the income for bootleggers. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:26:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Post on Olga and Harry Fox (NJC) Several folks have asked me to post this article which is in the Business section of the Washington Post today. It was written by Mike Mills, who wrote the wonderful piece on wally and joni and the joni site. -bill - -------------------------------------------------- Monday, July 20, 1998; Page F20 Imagine you're sitting around with some pals, playing guitars and singing off-key in one of your weekly jam sessions. You go over to the dining room table and begin scribbling down the chord changes and lyrics to a favorite song so everyone can follow along. Suddenly there's a knock at the door. It's two lawyers in suits, with briefcases, who press a letter to your chest demanding that you cease and desist from copying the song without the songwriter's permission. And if you don't, they'll see you in court. That's how operators of the Online Guitar Archive felt June 9 when they heard from the Harry Fox Agency, an arm of the National Music Publishers Association. A threat of legal action by the agency shut down OLGA, a popular Web site that amateur musicians used to swap the chords and lyrics of their favorite songs. "When you wake up in the morning and you're facing a multimillion-dollar lawsuit, you do what you're told," said John Nielands, a second-year law student in Pittsburgh who is running a campaign to restore the site. The Harry Fox Agency said OLGA violates the publishing rights of the songwriters. Though no money changes hands at the site, the agency said it deprives songwriters and publishers of revenue they might otherwise get from sheet-music sales. OLGA hasn't gone away completely because of the global reach of the Internet and vagaries of international copyright law. The site www.olga.net offers access to various "mirror" sites at computers in Poland, Belgium and South Africa. But the shutdown of the primary site and its U.S. mirrors has brought screeching feedback from the Web music-making community. "There are a lot of nasty letters coming in. Threats to one's life, body and building," said Ed Murphy, president and chief executive of the NMPA and the Harry Fox Agency. According to Murphy, teaching someone the chords and words to a pop song -- guitar player to guitar player -- is okay. Even e-mailing it to a friend won't cause him alarm. "We don't pursue inconsequential uses," Murphy said. "We pursue commercial losses of income. We're talking about substantial numbers, thousands of people, who were using that site to learn songs." Nielands counters that OLGA's site falls under the "fair use" exception of U.S. copyright law. It's not for profit, he said, and its primary use is educational. "We at OLGA view ourselves as a library on the Internet," said Nielands, who plays guitar for a Pittsburgh band called the Raving Jehovahs. A University of New Mexico student named James Bender first put up the site in 1992 with 200 songs, as an outgrowth of the Usenet newsgroup rec.guitar.tablature. By the time it was shut down, OLGA included 33,000 files, including country, jazz, classical and bass guitar charts, which were downloaded hundreds of times worldwide every day. That's explosive growth -- something the sheet music business hasn't seen in decades.Back in the 1970s, most popular songs were immediately translated into piano sheet music (with guitar chords as well) and 100,000 copies would be printed for sale, according to Murphy. By the end of the 1980s, however, the typical run was 10,000. Music publishers used to make 30 percent of their revenue f rom print sales, as opposed to recorded music. Today it's less than 5 percent. Why the drop? Alas, the piano no longer is widely considered an essential element of family entertainment and children's upbringings. Most amateur guitarists don't read music anyway. Another issue is the lack of complexity of today's pop: Amateurs need the sheet music for Cole Porter or Gershwin tunes, but any hack who isn't tone deaf can probably pick out the chords to "My Heart Will Go On," the theme song to the film "Titanic." The Internet, according to the Harry Fox Agency, is today's culprit for lagging sheet music sales.But OLGA was highly praised by amateur musicians because what it offered was not sheet music, which requires that you know how to read music. OLGA files were tablature, detailed road maps for playing more complex songs on guitar, in a way not found in typical sheet music. Buy the sheet music to the Beatles guitar classic "Blackbird," for example, and you're likely to find it transcribed for easy piano, but with just basic guitar chords on top. But with OLGA tablature, you get the correct finger positions and order of notes in a chord, allowing the song to be played more closely to the original. "OLGA has a lot of details that you can't find in published materials," said Bill Dollinger of the District, a visitor to the site for two years. " A lot of music I like to play is in different tunings. I've been playing more guitar because of OLGA. It's like a big musicians' community. I'd compare it to a thousand people sitting down in a living room, trading guitar licks." Dollinger disagrees with Murphy's contention that sheet music sales suffer because of OLGA. "To me, tablature online leads to more sales, not less. I've gone into music stores and bought tablature books because of OLGA," he said. "It's like you can't get enough of it." Murphy says online tablature is less of a problem, from a copyright perspective, than the lyrics that typically accompany the charts. "The tablature is not what's in question. That gets to be a more difficult area to discern [legally]. If you wanted to use tablature to teach someone, I applaud that," he said. "Our problem is the post-1923 material, and it's basically all lyrics." He said OLGA users "could use public domain material up through 1923" without violating copyrights. Nielands laughed at that notion. But OLGA and the Harry Fox Agency barely communicate, let alone see eye to eye. Even if OLGA survives its copyright battle, it will never be the same freewheeling site it was until just a month ago. Web master Cal Woods and his attorneys now have incorporated OLGA as a nonprofit entity. The site (or what's left of it) now has jazzed-up graphics and is looking for advertisers and donations to defray its legal bills. Its "Blue Treble Clef" icon is appearing on other music sites around the Web, echoing the blue ribbon of other net campaigns representing Internet freedom. "They're at a point now where they have to grow or die," said Anthony DeGidio, a Toledo attorney working for OLGA. "They could be a public TV of the Internet with respect to musicians. OLGA is only going to survive if these thousands of users step forward and start to make some donations." He added: "OLGA might even develop into a music publisher itself." In other words, OLGA is already dead, having joined the legions of well-buffed, over-engineered sites that now crowd the Web. People around the world already are looking for working mirror sites and downloading its entire archives onto their hard drives, before the free files are lost forever. It's enough to make you want to kick everyone out of your living room, open up your old Mel Bay guitar method book and learn "Home on the Range" the old-fashioned way. Mike Mills's e-mail address is millsm@washpost.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:35:57 -0700 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Release of TTT Simon wrote: >>there IS a difference between listing a CD, and actually HAVING it. I just checked the Valley's database. They input the new releases before the street date and TTT is not yet entered. FYI, Valley Media is a pretty huge wholesale music distributor. We sell to both US and international companies/stores. We are also the largest provider of Internet music, so there's a pretty good chance that CD Zone gets their product from us. (Places like CD Now! and others buy from Valley). I'm inclined to be with Simon on the logic of listing vis-a-vis actually having it. If Valley is not listing it, it's not soon to be released. MG: for whom lurking is too active a verb..... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:10:56 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Conscience (NJC) Don Sloan wrote: > I am a probation officer in L.A. and I deal with locked up > kids/gangsters who've done it all. Kudos from me too, Don, for your work and what you deal with on a daily basis as a helper in society. > I try to bring the feeling of their victims to them... if you ask them > how they would feel if someone victimized a member of their family in > the same way they victimized a stranger you see a completely different > (though short-lived) attitude. Suddenly he relates; for a moment he > cares. This must be very frustrating to you. As you probably know, and see the evidence of such in your work, child development specialists have determined that the thing called "empathy", which leads to a sense of conscience, is a developmental task that occurs quite early in childhood (like starting at age 18 months!)and should be well-established by the time a child is verbal. If this developmental task is thwarted as in neglect and lack of fostering and nurturing, the child will not master the task of the ability to identify with others, which leads to the gamut of various levels of narcissism all the way to severe sociopathic expression, where there appears to be no semblence of a conscience in the person. You are attempting to instill something that was lost very early in the maturation process of many of the kids you work with. This is not to say that yours is an exercise in futility, in that other factors might help guide these kids into more acceptable behavior, such as their intelligence to see there are punishments to certain behaviors, etc., but that basic sense of empathy, if not mastered early in childhood cannot be established or "learned" later in life. This is why we see so many people obeying the law simply because they are aware of and afraid of punishment (consequences), and not because of altruistic motives of morality and concern for their fellow man/woman. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:50:40 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Post on Olga and Harry Fox (NJC) In a message dated 7/20/98 10:30:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bdolling@CapAccess.org writes: << "OLGA has a lot of details that you can't find in published materials," said Bill Dollinger of the District, a visitor to the site for two years. " A lot of music I like to play is in different tunings. I've been playing more guitar because of OLGA. >> Way to go, BILL! Thanks for sharing the article; I'm going to drop an email to the author too. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:18:01 EDT From: Wolfebite@aol.com Subject: Re: Sessions @ W. 54th (changed to NJC) CHRIS D. is not hosting?!? i thought he was leaving kqrw/xtrxc/wdice..... morning becomes eccentric.../??.. to host sessions full time? and david byrne- i like david lots- but this bit of info leaves me cold. i guess i like chris d's straightforward enthusiasm- and i think his minor celeb status (if you could call it that) worked to his credit- he came across as informed, un-splashing (as opposed to splashy) & sincere and actually- kinda cute.... but anyway... this should bode well for luka-bop audiences! Hey- maybe mimi goese will be on! I recommend her new albumn Mimi, highly. (have you heard it yet patrick?) doug ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:14:22 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: JM in Chicago Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:26:07 -0500 From: Howard Motyl 1. I have heard through my production grapevine here in Chicago that WTTW, the Chicago PBS affiliate, will be taping the Joni show at Old Town SofFM. My source didn't know what this would be for . . . I, on the other hand, am in the process of scheduling a meeting with someone from the station, so I will ask him about this taping and when/where it will be broadcast--if at all. 2. Ad.d me to the Oprah list of supplicants. - -- Howard Motyl Producer, MPI Teleproductions 16101 South 108th Avenue Orland Park, IL 60462 708-873-3190 708.873.3177 Fax http://www.mpimedia.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:22:26 -0700 From: Jill Tamada Subject: Tidbit to share My Sister Barbara sent me this bit of news. Sorry if this has already been posted to the list. "Oh ,by the way. I read an interview with Kyle Eastwood {Clint's son} who is a jazz pianist. His debut album is coming out soon. It was produced by Larry Klien and Joni sings on it too." - -Jill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:24:36 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-joni@smoe.org Subject: [none] Hey Joniphiles - Guess what? The world's greatest Carly Simon fan - our very own Colin - has gone and started the Carly Simon Discussion List! Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Les Irvin To subscribe, send "subscribe hotcakes" or "subscribe hotcakes-digest" to . Congratulations and best wishes for a successful venture Colin. Les ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:33:00 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: NJC - Carly Simon list! Hey Joniphiles - Guess what? The world's greatest Carly Simon fan - our very own Colin - has gone and started the Carly Simon Discussion List! Congratulations and best wishes for a successful venture Colin. Les To join the Hotcakes list: send: subscribe hotcakes or subscribe hotcakes-digest to . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 09:37:43 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: re: Teen Ethics in Los Angeles Don't want to beat this issue (further) into the ground, but quickly... David posted some good stuff here and I agree with much of it. But a few comments: I can't imagine why we would expect a teen in Los Angeles > to adhere to the law, especially if he or she comes from a disadvantaged > neighborhood. I know (I hope) David isn't saying we should excuse criminal behavior. I absolutely believe that every citizen must have the expectation that every other citizen obey the law, no matter where they live or how *unfairly* they have been treated by others. A HUGE part of the problem is the continued rationalization in our society for the commission of crime. When (the generic) *you* get beat over the head or your father (God forbid) gets blown away because he didn't have enough money to satisfy the robber or you go out to your car in order to drive to work and it's been stolen, I doubt you will care who the criminal was or what their background is or whether or not they are a disadvantaged, disenfranchised member of society. Where one is from and how one has been treated never excuses wrong behavior. If one thinks so, then one may as well be a warring Crip or Blood or Hatfield or Mc Coy. >It seems to me that a kid with his eyes open will indeed > learn his code of ethics from the world around him. Michael Y. posted > recently about corporate America. Honestly, what do you think the > ethical codes of most CEOs in this country are like? This is so absolutely true and gets to the heart of the problem. From (IMO) the White House on down, we see unethical, immoral and illegal behavior that our kids learn from... and from that angle, yes, what do we expect? But let's not let ourselves as law-abiding, non-CEOs off the hook. I can virtually guarantee you that if we had a discussion with the kids I work with about ethics and the law, they would be laughing at us and telling us there is little difference between what they do and what they see the CEOs doing, the politicians doing or yes, what we are doing with tape trees on the JMDL. I saw a TV commercial long ago. I believe it was for the Mormon church. It showed a husband asking his wife to call his boss and tell him he wouldn't be in because he was sick. He was obviously asking his wife to lie so he could stay home and do something preferable to going to work. In the same room one of his kids stood there, overhearing the conversation and the voice-over pointed out that we are *always* teaching our children. Don ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:11:32 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Morality, Teen Ethics Listen, people. There are other mailing lists to bitch about stuff that doesn't involve Joni. Go find them. ____________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |__________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:29:14 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: Re: Conscience (NJC) Marsha... I already swore off this thread, but since you re-named it :-): Thanks a lot. I am familiar with what you wrote about and it is so absolutely true. It all starts at home and that's why government cannot *fix* it; institutions cannot effectively nurture and laws cannot make people care. Without elaborating, I'll just say that I believe most people should have gold fish, not kids. Don > you wrote: > > This must be very frustrating to you. As you probably know, and > see the evidence of such in your work, child development specialists > have determined that the thing called "empathy", which leads > to a sense of conscience, is a developmental task that occurs > quite early in childhood (like starting at age 18 months!)and > should be well-established by the time a child is verbal. > If this developmental task is thwarted as in neglect and lack of > fostering and nurturing, the child will not master the > task of the ability to identify with others, which leads > to the gamut of various levels of narcissism all the way to > severe sociopathic expression, where there appears to be no > semblence of a conscience in the person. > You are attempting to instill something that was lost very > early in the maturation process of many of the kids you work > with. > This is not to say that yours is an exercise in futility, > in that other factors might help guide these kids into > more acceptable behavior, such as their intelligence to see > there are punishments to certain behaviors, etc., > but that basic sense of empathy, if not mastered early in > childhood cannot be established or "learned" later in life. > This is why we see so many people obeying the law simply > because they are aware of and afraid of punishment (consequences), > and not because of altruistic motives of morality and > concern for their fellow man/woman. > > Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:32:48 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: my last RE: Teen Ethics in Los Angeles Michael wrote: > I > also think his post approached something important in talking > about how the kids in question have internalized their "victim" > status and thus feel "entitled" to what they're taking. I think this is > only the beginning, though. After all, in many ways, they *are* > victims of entrenched geographic, legal, and social forces that > systematically limit their opportunities and fundamentally alter the > context in which they make decisions, or assert their personal > agency, as it were. Yes, many are victims. But for us to use that as any justification for what they do is to further victimize them. My approach with these kids is to do whatever I can to foster the growth of empathy and personal responsibility. If they do not learn to accept responsibility, they will never change, never be successful, never break the cycle. OTOH, it is amazing and glorious to see one of these kids get a hook on the responsibility thing... it is so EMPOWERING for them!!!!!!! We've all been victims to some degree, in one way or another, and I'm sure we know from our own experience that we always have the choice to feel sorry for ourselves and play the victim or deal with it and move on. If we choose the former, we hold ourselves back; if we choose the latter, we set ourselves free. I hate to pound on this but I hate even more to think that this society will spend another 20 or 30 years making failing excuses for bad behavior and passing the blame. There's a lot of good academic work out there which speaks to these issues, but having been in this business for 20 years, I can tell you much of it is written by academicians who don't really know shit and have some kind of ax to grind. You don't empower people with money or what it can buy. You free them by respecting them as human beings, holding them accountable and helping them be responsible. That, as I've seen and experienced, is the *victim's* best revenge!! I've never read anything on this list, on this thread or any other,to make me think that anyone here isn't a well-meaning, caring person. If these issues in particular touch you and you want to contribute to change and further the cause of Just-Ice, then everyday do the right thing, set your best example in big and small things; nurture someone, care for everyone; volunteer time at a Boy's or Girl's club... and forget the politicians... they will never change any of this. To paraphrase Russell Means, great leader of the American Indian Movement, *we* will change this as individuals when we realize we are all presently living on a big reservation and we stop giving power to someone else in order that *they* fix it for us. Okay, I'm done and off this thread. Thanks for reading if you aren't practicing deleting! Don ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:49:42 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: NJC - Carly Simon list! Les left out that he has helped me a lot and gave me the encouragement to go ahead and do it. Thanks Les. colin Les Irvin wrote: > Hey Joniphiles - > Guess what? The world's greatest Carly Simon fan - our very own Colin - > has gone and started the Carly Simon Discussion List! > > Congratulations and best wishes for a successful venture Colin. > Les > > To join the Hotcakes list: > > send: > > subscribe hotcakes > > or > > subscribe hotcakes-digest > > to . - -- Living is the process whereby we create the structures we call meaning. http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk Carly Simon Discussion List http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:08:17 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Bootlegs vs Pirates Just got back to my computer after the weekend, so it this has gone cold, forgive me. My understanding is that the real *big bucks* profiteering is in record *piracy* and *counterfeiting* -- the illegal mass duplication of studio material -- which has been an issue of trade dispute between US and China, if memory serves. In fact, most of what I've read about bootlegging and its market indicates that *concert tapers* can barely cover their material costs. As one writer put it, "there are no multi-platinum bootlegs." Not that I condone bootlegging, don't get me wrong -- I just think the REAL villians, pocket-picking artists are the pirates and counterfeiters. As for tape trees and sharing material for free -- well the price sure is right! :-) Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:54:36 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#21253460: Joni Mitchell Big Yellow Taxi/Friends REMIX NP: Tape of the Day: 7/20/96 Allman Brothers: Merriweather Post, Columbia, MD. I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: Joni Mitchell Big Yellow Taxi/Friends REMIX Seller: mann@chicagonet.net Starts: 07/14/98 06:46:47 PDT Ends: 07/21/98 06:46:47 PDT Price: Currently $7.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=21253460 Item Description: This is an HTF unopened CD in original packaging of Joni Mitchell's BIG YELLOW TAXI. The selections on this CD are: 1. Radio Mix, 2. "Friends" Album Version (original remix version from the Reprize Album "Friends" ...the TV show), 3. Late Night Club Mix, 4. N.Y. Cab To Club Mix, 5. Double Espresso NRG Mix, 6. Tribal Dub, and 7. Original A Cappella with Guitar. Guaranteed you won't be sitting still listening to this CD! NOTE: by bidding, buyer agrees to pay with money order or bank cashier's check only (personal checks returned) and $3 shipping. See my other auctions for more Joni Mitchell items and to SAVE ON SHIPPING! **THANKS FOR READING AND HAPPY BIDDING!* Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:56:13 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#21252835: JANET JACKSON & JONI MITCHELL TOGETHER CD I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: JANET JACKSON & JONI MITCHELL TOGETHER CD Seller: mann@chicagonet.net Starts: 07/14/98 06:35:41 PDT Ends: 07/21/98 06:35:41 PDT Price: Starts at $5.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=21252835 Item Description: This rare Janet Jackson "Together Again" CD contains unreleased mixes of TOGETHER AGAIN and GOT 'TILL IT'S GONE (featuring Joni Mitchell and Q-tip). This CD is still in original unopened package. Also included in this CD is TOGETHER AGAIN (Radio Edit), TOGETHER AGAIN (Jimmy Jam Deeper Radio Edit), TOGETHER AGAIN (Jimmy Jam Deep Radio Edit, GOT 'TIL IT'S GONE (featuring Q-tip and Joni Mitchell) (Ummah Jay Dee's Revenge Mix). The executive producers of this CD is Janek Jackson and Rene Elizondo Jr and produced by Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis (for Flyte Tyme Productions, Inc.). This is a must-have for any Joni Mitchell and/or Janet Jackson fan! I love my copy of it!! PLEASE NOTE: by bidding, buyer agrees to pay with money order or bank cashier's check only (personal checks returned) and $3.00 shipping. See my other auctions for more Joni and Janet CDs and to save on shipping. **THANKS FOR READING AND HAPPY BIDDING!** Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:57:03 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#21254044: RARE IMPORT JANET JACKSON & JONI MITCHELL I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: RARE IMPORT JANET JACKSON & JONI MITCHELL Seller: mann@chicagonet.net Starts: 07/14/98 06:58:09 PDT Ends: 07/21/98 06:58:09 PDT Price: Starts at $10.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=21254044 Item Description: This rare hard-to-find import CD is still in original, unopened package. JANET Got 'Till IT's Gone featuring Joni Mitchell and Q-tip. The tracks on here include 1. Radio Edit 3:39, Mellow Mix 5:11, 3. Nellee Hooper Master Mix 4:18, 4. Mellow Mix Edit 3:51, 5. Album Version 4:00. A must have for any Janet Jackson and/or Joni Mitchell collector. Please note: by bidding, buyer agrees to pay with money order or bank cashier's check only (personal checks returned) and $3 postage. See my other aucitons for more Joni and Janet CDs and to SAVE ON SHIPPING. **THANKS FOR READING AND HAPPY BIDDING!** Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:01:39 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: tape trees IKenny Grant wrote: > Joni -- and to a greater degree, her "people" (e.g., record company, > management, daughter) have seen both Wally and Les' website, and know that tape > trees exist. In fact, she received a tape tree (Tape Tree 4 - A Tape Of You - > JMDL artists covering her music)last year for either her birthday or Xmas, and > she was reportedly pleased with it. The packaging said Tape Tree 4, so she > must have put 2+2 together and known there was a 1,2, and 3. And didn't she also receive the Video Tape Tree as well? Phyliss ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:14:13 +0200 From: Robbert Subject: advice needed Hi there, greetings from Holland! I hope that some of you out there could help me out - I need some advice. Since I will be in America anyway, I'm planning to go see Joni at A Day In The Garden. Could anybody tell me exactly where the festival will take place? I'm looking at my Rand McNally road atlas here, but I just can't figure out where it will be... What would be the nearest town? Also, after Joni's set, I would like to return to NYC that same day. Without a car, how would I get there best? Does anybody know whether there is a busservice between the festival site and NYC? Especially on this matter I am in need for some good advice... If someone is also returning to New York that day, would you consider taking this Dutchman along? I would really appreciate any information my fellow Joniphiles would be willing to send to me. It's kind of difficult to obtain that information from here, being so far away. Please email me privately at robbert@vansprang.demon.nl Thank you very much in advance! Best, Robbert (who is going crazy realizing he will be seeing JONI VERY SOON!!!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:42:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Spam from eBay web site I don't know about anyone else, but I could really do without this spam. bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:49:58 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Spam from eBay web site >I don't know about anyone else, but I could >really do without this spam. > Me too, though I can't tell if it's an individual forwarding eBay stuff, or direct spam. Either way, it is starting to become annoying. D Rowe > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:55:44 EDT From: ORLTed@aol.com Subject: Fwd: to buy or not to buy? bootlegs, etc. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_900968144_boundary Content-ID: <0_900968144@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-07-19 22:37:30 EDT, donbvs@lightspeed.net writes: Don writes: << I am a probation officer in L.A. and I deal with locked up kids/gangsters who've done it all. With absolutely no offense meant to anyone here, I will say that this list discussion sounds much like the ones I have with my kids... they sometimes struggle with it but in the end always justify what they do because, bottom-line, their crimes allow them to have what they want. Doesn't matter to most of them if they hurt other people physically, monetarily or emotionally through their criminal and often terroristic behaviors because they are experts at rationalization. >> I am rolling...thanks for the absurd analogy! i assure you, buying a bootleg cd will not lead to a life of crime. rationalization is not always a bad thing by the way. and as for brian's comments: <> victims? seems a harsh choice of words to me...we are not talking about taped telephone calls, overheard conversations, wiretapping...we are talking about public performances that people paid to see... okay, obviously this is a passionate issue to many people. i'll be happy to just shut up and listen to every joni recording i can buy and sit around the house contemplating what my next crime against society will be... ted in orlando happy and not at all bitter - --part0_900968144_boundary Content-ID: <0_900968144@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (rly-zb02.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.2]) by air-zb01.mail.aol.com (v45.21) with SMTP; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:37:29 -0400 Received: from mermaid.shore.net (mermaid.shore.net [207.244.124.6]) by rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id WAA02767; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] by mermaid.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0yy5p2-0001Hk-00; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:37:04 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id WAA28929; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:35:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id WAA28889 for joni-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [204.216.64.33]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id WAA28881 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:34:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from raiden.lightspeed.net (raiden.lightspeed.net [204.216.64.20]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13997; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 204.216.69.210 (teh-ppp224.lightspeed.net [204.216.69.243]) by raiden.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA14729; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35B2AE79.69F9@lightspeed.net> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:41:59 -0700 From: Don Sloan X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) To: JMDL CC: "Odlum, Brian" Subject: Re: to buy or not to buy? bootlegs, etc. Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: Don Sloan Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) wrote at the end of his 19 Jul 1998 post: > In any case, I think this will be my sign-off on this thread. If it is > *not* a real concern of this community, then more words from me are > probably just annoying. If it *is* a concern of this community, then more > words from me are unnecessary. Either way, I'm outta here. Thanks for > reading. > > Brian I for one want to thank Brian for his posting on this issue. Maybe I have a more keen interest then some when it comes to this topic in general as I have these kinds of discussions almost everyday with my *clients*. I am a probation officer in L.A. and I deal with locked up kids/gangsters who've done it all. With absolutely no offense meant to anyone here, I will say that this list discussion sounds much like the ones I have with my kids... they sometimes struggle with it but in the end always justify what they do because, bottom-line, their crimes allow them to have what they want. Doesn't matter to most of them if they hurt other people physically, monetarily or emotionally through their criminal and often terroristic behaviors because they are experts at rationalization. I try to bring the feeling of their victims to them... if you ask them how they would feel if someone victimized a member of their family in the same way they victimized a stranger you see a completely different (though short-lived) attitude. Suddenly he relates; for a moment he cares. Sometimes, if a kid is locked up for property crimes and he is especially thick-headed, I will go over to his locker and (temporarily) take what little personal property he has. This may be nothing more than a couple of magazines, some letters and a few photos of family or girlfriend. It really does a number on him, but, unfortunately, I doubt if it brings about much longterm change in his refusal to empathize with the rest of humanity. It doesn't help that these kids have grown up in a society that has told them since birth that they are the victims, that they are *entitled* and that they are not really responsible for their personal behavior. But that's another story. BTW, most of these kids are not sociopaths in the strict sense of the word, but it is amazing how disconnected they are emotionally from the pain and suffering they cause to individuals, families (even their own) and communities. Thanks, Brian and all who have contributed to a most interesting and enjoyable thread. Don - --part0_900968144_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:57:37 +0100 From: Rob Jordan Subject: Re: The Unfiltered Joni Mitchell - Part 2 (Mojo 8/98) At 19:00 19/07/98 -0400, Marsha wrote: >August Mojo is not on the shelves here yet, and with this >fine stuff, I know I'm running out to spend the $7.95 for >the rag with it's many pictures, too! Marsha and everyone, Please *do* go out and buy this Mojo if you have the opportunity. I'd hate the magazine to suffer because I posted this - especially in the climate of copyright-conscience on the list at present. And the photos are worth the cover price. More episodes coming soon! Rob ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:12:42 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Spam from eBay web site I agree- It sounds like another mailbot. Don wrote in reply to Mr. OLGA: >>I don't know about anyone else, but I could >>really do without this spam. >> >Me too, though I can't tell if it's an individual forwarding eBay stuff, >or direct spam. Either way, it is starting to become annoying. > >D Rowe >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com NP-jardín linea ? (Jungle Line) ____________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |__________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:25:05 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Spam from eBay web site Although it did have Joni content. ;-) >I agree- It sounds like another mailbot. > >Don wrote in reply to Mr. OLGA: >>>I don't know about anyone else, but I could >>>really do without this spam. >>> >>Me too, though I can't tell if it's an individual forwarding eBay stuff, >>or direct spam. Either way, it is starting to become annoying. >> >>D Rowe ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:52:00 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Fwd: to buy or not to buy? bootlegs, etc. I thought Don's point, not an analogy, was apt. Obviously, the difference bewtween buying a bootleg and robbing a bank is vast BUT the rationalization and self deceit behind it is the same. If we break a code to buy an illegally made cd, what else might we do to gain what we want? So criminals are not much different from the rest of us-they believe what they do is okay and those of us that don't have something wrong with us. I always get mad when i here the peopl around here moan about the amount of burglaries there are. They make no connection at all with the fact that they buy cheap vcr's, hi-fi's etc from local people! The burglars of course are scum-they are just clever to spot a good deal when they see one! colin np:Denise Moser - Bright Side Up ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:51:56 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: The Unfiltered Joni Mitchell - Part 2 (Mojo 8/98) I second that. the aricle is excellent with many good photo's. I had never heard of the mag befopre Rob brought it to our attention-picked it up at Sainsbury's. I particlulary liked what she had to say about poetry and modern lyrics. She mentions a line to a song, 'everyone is gay' and says it isn't good writing, just a statement.(I would add that it is also, unfortunately, untrue). It is from ALL APOLOGIES by Kurt Cobain whcih I have sung by Sinead O'Conner on her Universal Mother cd. The music and her voice make it lovely but can't say the lric mean much to me. Joni had some excellent points to make about her lyrics and how annoyed she gets about people getting so into what they mean. Joni says the meaning changes for her as life goes on. People, she says(tho not in these words), should just take their own meaning and interpreatation and not faff about whether or not Joni meant this or that. Joni thinks these indvidual interpretations are valid. Unless what i am readin is science or such, I don't bother to read very far into something if the meaning is obtuse. Always annoyed me in school being TOLD what a piece meant instead of leaving me with my own views. certainly spoiled it for me. I also loved her explanation of her music and singing style, that her work is not really for singing, her songs beoing more talk style. That is exactly how I see her later stuff-and prefer her later stuff. When I listen to Joni, it's like she is talking to me, sharing her thoughts and opinions. She is not singing to me but educating me as to her world view. She always make me think. I listen to her daily, like most of my reading is non-fiction. Howver, I also love other's who do sing and love to read fiction-especially when I need a break from serious stuff. The idea of her doing a standards album is exciting. colin Rob Jordan wrote: > At 19:00 19/07/98 -0400, Marsha wrote: > >August Mojo is not on the shelves here yet, and with this > >fine stuff, I know I'm running out to spend the $7.95 for > >the rag with it's many pictures, too! > > Marsha and everyone, > > Please *do* go out and buy this Mojo if you have the opportunity. I'd hate > the magazine to suffer because I posted this - especially in the climate of > copyright-conscience on the list at present. And the photos are worth the > cover price. > > More episodes coming soon! > > Rob - -- Living is the process whereby we create the structures we call meaning. http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk Carly Simon Discussion List http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:58:04 EDT From: Wolfebite@aol.com Subject: Re: Spam from eBay web site I find it kind a ironic in lieu of all this bootleg/tape tree discussion.... like that mingus reel to reel (wasn't that what was posted first?)- where the heck did it come from? i suspect that it's direct eBay spam- under some kind of word recognition command. I don't like it either- although i'm interested in eBay personally. I've visited the web site and understand that they do have an 'open communication' policy- in that they make email addresses of buyers and sellers available during the course of an auction (5-7 days from the posting of the item by the bidder)- but this sounds like we are on some kind of pre-alert list. Who put us there? doug ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #267 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?