From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #265 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Sunday, July 19 1998 Volume 03 : Number 265 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Rufus&sean/a review NJC [rkbjf ] Re: Ethics..Taping (NJC) [Bolvangar@aol.com] RE: Crime in N.O. (NJC) [Bolvangar@aol.com] A little sheet music or Desperately seeking (last time I saw) Richard [Ch] Buy taming the tiger ["Paul Headon" ] NJC-Tape crimes in the City [MP123A321@aol.com] Interesting item on eBay web site item#20995699: JONI MITCHELL CAREY/JERICHO PROMO 45 [k] Interesting item on eBay web site item#20997520: 2 45S FROM JONI MITCHELL [kb420@webtv.] Re: bootlegs, streetcrime NJC [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Buy taming the tiger [WirlyPearl@aol.com] JM IN NYTIMES ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Re: Buy taming the tiger [catman ] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees [Barry Toranto ] San Hose 5/19 for TRADE [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees--NJC [BH1248@aol.com] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees (SJC) [briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian)] Re: Buy taming the tiger [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: Winfrey 7-17 [Maggie McNally ] Re: Today in Joni History - July 20 [Maggie McNally ] Re: Bootlegs vs tape trees (NJC) ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: Joni on Oprah [IVPAUL42@aol.com] bootlegs and taping [Maggie McNally ] NJC: Re: Selling Bootleg recordings ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Joni on Oprah [Mark Domyancich ] Joni on Oprah [DKasc13293@aol.com] RE: Sessions @ W. 54th (JC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Taming The Tiger (UK release) [simon@icu.com] JM on LM? [briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian)] to buy or not to buy? bootlegs, etc. [ORLTed@aol.com] Re: Joni on Oprah [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: The Unfiltered Joni Mitchell - Part 2 (Mojo 8/98) [Marsha Subject: Rufus&sean/a review NJC Breif , 'Cause it's 2:00 a.m. and I'm etc............ Rufus wainwright: Pidgeon holeing; A hunk-a-hunk-a-burnin' love! If the Velvet Underground was John Cale's band, and Paul McCartney played the part of Lou Reed. That's the sound, the feel is also very similar. Darkness on broadway, with a splash of opera. Sean Lennon; HOLY SHIT!!! John would SOOOOO proud! This is a GREAT band! Do not hesitate to see them! The LP comes nowhere near doing them justice. Be prepared though, I think they're the 4th loudest band I've ever seen, behind, in order; #1 The Who, 1970, 15 years old, 3:00 p.m., Metropolitan sports center (where The North Stars used to play, since torn down) Leaning on the stage, with my feet off the ground, right in front of Pete. My friend Chris still has a piece of the guitar. #2, The Only Ones, 1978 Small Minneapolis club. #3 The Ramones, Small St. Paul club, winter 75/76, (the concert where I realized that I was punk rocker) one of the few times that I actually had way too much fun! The lesson learned is, if you're not too old ;-) go see Sean Lennon!!!!! Disappointment will not be part of your review! Brad ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 04:00:25 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: Ethics..Taping (NJC) Maurice wrote: <> Oh, I don't regret posting it one bit! :) - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 04:12:44 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: RE: Crime in N.O. (NJC) Michael Y. wrote: <> This is very much the case with my grandparents' neighborhood, I think. When they moved into their house, 47 years ago (!!!), the neighborhood was middle- class and white. It is now predominantly black. My grandparents' old neighbors, who now live in the suburbs, say to them, "Oh, how can you still be living there? It's dangerous/it's not what it used to be" etc. My grandmother says, "Well?! You deserted it!" I don't know the crime statistics for my grandparents' part of town though, I have no idea if my experience is representative. I just thought I'd share it. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 07:46:41 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: A little sheet music or Desperately seeking (last time I saw) Richard Hi List, I know I sent a post early concerning the sheet music for the Blue album. Yes it is out of print and I have been unsuccessful locating it through antiquarian shops. Can anyone help? Thanks, - -Brian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:03:55 +0100 From: "Paul Headon" Subject: Buy taming the tiger Hi, I saw an advert on a UK CD site advertising TTT on sale from 17th July a made an order and I await replies . the site shall I tell you where to find the site -you bet !! http://www.cdzone.co.uk/cgibin/cdzwww.cgi?1,Find,searchform,1BCE3D05DE7B6C91 EC5D287EC25BEE43 Tell me what you think please! Best wishes, Paul Headon Three thoughts to live by :- 1) Don't sweat on the small stuff 2) It's all small stuff :) 3) If you can't fight and you can't flee then flow. Try the West Wales Chess Homepage ? http://members.xoom.com/PaulHeadon/wwcl/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:30:11 EDT From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: NJC-Tape crimes in the City From a recent post by Paul I: <> I heard Neil Young allowed people to set up microphone stands for personal taping at HORDE festival last year. "....there's still crime in the city, but it's good to be free." N.Young I'm hangin out in the steamy elephants graveyard, helping tourists , dodging bullets, and taking orders from 10 year olds.......Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:39:59 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#20995699: JONI MITCHELL CAREY/JERICHO PROMO 45 NP: Tape of the Day: 7/19/87 Dylan & The Dead: Eugene, OR. I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: JONI MITCHELL CAREY/JERICHO PROMO 45 Seller: pphhrreedd@aol.com Starts: 07/12/98 11:57:07 PDT Ends: 07/19/98 11:57:07 PDT Price: Currently $2.25 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=20995699 Item Description: JONI MITCHELL CAREY/JERICHO PROMO 45 IN GOOD SHAPE BOTH SIDES ARE MONO ON DISC #45244 ON ASYLUM RECORDS WINNER PAYS 1.50 SHIPPING Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:41:55 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#20997520: 2 45S FROM JONI MITCHELL I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: 2 45S FROM JONI MITCHELL Seller: pphhrreedd@aol.com Starts: 07/12/98 12:12:12 PDT Ends: 07/19/98 12:12:12 PDT Price: Currently $26.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=20997520 Item Description: 2 45S FROM JONI 1 BIG YELLOW TAXI/WOODSTOCK 2WHY DO FOOLS FALL IN LOVE/BLACK CROW BOTH IN GOOD SHAPE WINNER PAYS 1.50 SHIPPING Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 10:48:39 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: bootlegs, streetcrime NJC In a message dated 7/19/98 2:04:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, donbvs@lightspeed.net writes: << The justice system in America is breaking down because most criminals have a world view that allows them to victimize others without remorse. That's a mindset that's hard to change, no matter how much money you throw at it. >> It's true- sociopaths have no conscious. They cannot see that their behaviors are wrong and therefore do not (in general) respond to treatment. Sad, but true. However, that doesn't mean that all perpetrators are sociopaths. Terry Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:03:18 EDT From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: Re: Buy taming the tiger Hi guys, I checked out the CD Zone site which can be easily reached at http://www.cdzone.co.uk. Just type in Joni Mitchell or Taming the Tiger in the little box. It is indeed being released for sale starting July 17th!!! They convert the cost for you, so in US dollars it comes out to about $21.25 which includes the shipping. This is great news for all those who can't wait until the end of September and who are willing to pay a little extra to start enjoying it now. Thanks for the great info, Paul. Pearl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:10:14 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: JM IN NYTIMES Another colorful advertisement for "A Day In The Garden" on the second page of the NY TIMES Entertainment section. This time there is a photograph of Joni, smiling in her beret. JulieZW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:20:40 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Buy taming the tiger I found it and ordered it. It was cheaper than buying at Tower or Virgin. Now all i have to do is wait and see if it actually arrives! It seems unusual that we should get the release before the USA. colin WirlyPearl@aol.com wrote: > Hi guys, > > I checked out the CD Zone site which can be easily reached at > http://www.cdzone.co.uk. Just type in Joni Mitchell or Taming the Tiger > in the little box. It is indeed being released for sale starting July 17th!!! > They convert the cost for you, so in US dollars it comes out to about $21.25 > which includes the shipping. This is great news for all those who can't wait > until the end of September and who are willing to pay a little extra to start > enjoying it now. Thanks for the great info, Paul. > > Pearl > - -- Living is the process whereby we create the structures we call meaning. http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk Carly Simon Discussion List http://ethericctas.demon.co.uk/ethericcats/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:59:42 -0700 From: Barry Toranto Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees Well I for one appreciate the effort made to preserve history, particularily older history that an artist did not feel the need to record. I consider the taping of a concert to be a public service. But if i was a taper I would not feel good about the recording I made being sold for profit. And the tapes I collect I would not consider mine to sell. In 1993 the Dead stopped allowing digital soundboards to be circulated, I assume this was directly related to bootlegs that were sold for profit. I believe that the dead got a lot of excellent promotion by allowing their music to circulate so freely and I think the wide circulation of the music helped lead to their huge commercial success in the 90's. A couple problems with boots being sold for profit is that the record companies don't like it, and it gives the taper a bad name. I don't think the problem is that it takes from the artist, I think most people wanting a boot will buy the commercial records also and if anything, the boots will help sell the commercial records. In my opinion it's simply that it is not ours to sell, the spirit of taping is in documenting to share and promote what we love. Something great is happening on the Sony dylan site which is that live music is being posted for the fans, what is interesting is that much of what has been posted appears to be recordings taken from audience tapes. If I made one of those "field recordings" I would be proud to have it posted as opposed to being upset to see it sold as a bootleg. I for one think it is important to document the music, and do it well. barry Barry Toranto DATLand 1-800-747-DATS check out our website: www.infoasis.com/people/wigt email: wigt@infoasis.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:05:54 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: San Hose 5/19 for TRADE This is probably really poor timing, given the current discussion. But... I now have this complete show to trade for any one tape of the Tape Trees except #1. It is an audience recording of decent quality. A little bass heavy but sounds good when you turn your bass knob down. No, I did not buy it. I traded for it. :) Dave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 12:13:49 EDT From: BH1248@aol.com Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees--NJC Adam Duritz of Counting Crows recently said it would be hypocritical for him to condemn bootlegs because he owns so many. In fact, he said most people who buy bootlegs probably own most, if not all, of the artist's releases. His band countered the bootleggers by releasing a double-CD at single price. Now that's an alternative I can respect--get that stuff to market if they want to 1) beat the boots and 2) take care of and make money from "ardent admirers". Bob NP: Counting Crows "Across the Wire: Live in New York" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:23:22 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees (SJC) > From: David Marine > > Brian asked: > < have to this thread that I would single them out?>> > > Answer: All three had posted just before you expressing their views > about tape trees and bootlegging. At that point no one else had posted > regarding the issue (I don't think -- maybe Colin had), so I assumed > your comments were directed at them. I in no way meant to speak for any > of them (each is eloquent and certainly doesn't need me to forward his > opinion, which I would not presume to know anyway). > > Brian asked: < thinner?>> > > Oh, I don't know, I'm probably grinding an axe. I asked myself the same > question this evening as I hiked the canyon. In truth, I'm ambivalent > about the issue, and maybe that's why my rhetoric sounded agressive to > you. Joni's set at the Pauley concert was one of the most extraordinary > hours of my existence, and I want a copy of it, you know? On the other > hand, I would never want to do a disservice to her. I do consider the > ethical questions involved, as I believe others on this list do > (including the aformentioned trinity). > > Please don't take any of this personally. Though I like spirited > debate, I don't care for personal attacks, and I did not intend to > offend anyone. OK, I feel my skin thickening a little. Thanks for such an honest reply. I too enjoy the discussion. Your contribution has already been very significant. I do however have a suggestion, not to anyone in particular, but to all of the JMDL. Let me say in advance that I'm not being negative here, I'm trying my best to create a solution. Like everything else I post to the net, it's not perfect and subject to constructive criticism. Supposing someone who knew Joni (Wally?) and who could also act as a convincing spokesperson for the tape trees and the anti-bootlegging crusade actually spoke to her and asked for her blessing of the tape trees. If she agreed, then the JMDL tapes trees would become "official". This would strengthen their power as a deterrent to bootlegging, clear up much of the ethical ambiguity surrounding the tape trees, and allow fans to feel really good about owning the tapes. If she said no, then not much will have changed from where we are now, except that some fans who are conflicted regarding the ethical questions will have a clearer idea of the choices they are making. What do you (all of you) think? Brian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 98 17:30:52 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Buy taming the tiger Is it possible for TTT to be released in the UK in July '98 and in the US in Sept. '98 (or later)? What are the chances of the UK release containing the exact same soundtrack (and to a lesser degree packaging) as the US release? Simon? Anyone? -Kenny On 7/19/98 11:03AM, WirlyPearl@aol.com wrote: Hi guys, I checked out the CD Zone site which can be easily reached at http://www.cdzone.co.uk. Just type in Joni Mitchell or Taming the Tiger in the little box. It is indeed being released for sale starting July 17th!!! They convert the cost for you, so in US dollars it comes out to about $21.25 which includes the shipping. This is great news for all those who can't wait until the end of September and who are willing to pay a little extra to start enjoying it now. Thanks for the great info, Paul. Pearl ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:39:54 -0400 From: Maggie McNally Subject: Re: Winfrey 7-17 Sue, et al, Sorry if this is old response, but this is my first chance to get on-line in a few days. I emailed on Friday (I think, lost track now) and got the canned response. I did not mention the community, but instead spoke to the brillance that could come out of the Oprah/Joni collaboration. I agree that the community should be left out of this for the reasons you gave. Best, Maggie At 11:21 AM 7/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >Just wanted to say that you folks are fantastic! We have more than doubled >our numbers from yesterday. I would suggest that in your mailing that you >not mention our community, as it may look like the concerted effort it is. >I know that is being a bit deceitful, but somehow I feel that if our >mailing looks more like just random people requesting SIQUOMB it will have >more of an impact. Any feedback from the group on this? I am not one to >ram my ideas down someone's throat (unless of course that someone is one of >my students) so whatever the community feels is best is fine with me. > >Look at the list below. If your name isn't on it, then what are you >waiting for? www.oprah.com. > >P.S. No fair looking at the list and saying, "Hey I'm on there because it >says 'ME'"! > >Me >Kenny >Chilihead >Don Rowe >Phyliss - no response >Pearl >Terry - six responses! >Lesley Watson in Cape Town >Doug >Kate >Mendi >Bev - two responses! >Jody >Peggy >Marian >Anne Madden - bunch of responses > >Sue Cameron (Suze) > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:17:50 -0400 From: Maggie McNally Subject: Re: Today in Joni History - July 20 Hi all, I was at this show, my first Joni concert. It was such a huge disappointment for a fan such as am I (grammer police, is that correct? ;-)). Anyway, I recently met with a fellow during a networking phase of my job hunt, and he had a Miller Concert on the Commons poster from 1983 on his wall. Sure enough, there was Joni in the line-up. During a break in the art-in-Boston conversation I pointed to it and asked him if he had had a role in it and if he had been there for the Joni show. He launched into a diatribe about how it was one of the worst nightmares of his professional life, because after about three songs she threatened not to go back on stage and had to be counter-threatened with not being paid for the gig (and just what defined a gig) to get her back up there. Needless to say, I was sad to hear our lady of the arts being defamed in such a way, but he was telling it as it was. One night I shared this story with ric and Ashara and ric related (ric, correct me if I'm wrong here) that he thought that part of the problem was that she had backdrops she wanted to use (as she did on the most recent tour) and they would not let her use them because they had to have the Miller High Life banner (concert sponsors) up there. Ah, the conflict between art and commerce. Add that to the other problems (day time, an active and even restless audience, end of a not very rewarding tour) and you get a human being/artist with human problems. As an audience member I was disappointed, but it did nothing to diminish my admiration for her art. Best, Maggie At 02:04 PM 7/17/98 -0600, you wrote: >1983: Joni performs in Boston. (from Wally's bio): When Refuge did [this >show], Joni got some bad press for walking offstage five times during the >show. Whether her frustration resulted from malfunctioning equipment, or >from the audience being too noisy, in reality it was a combination of the >show being a rare one for Joni in the daytime, the crowd's natural >rowdiness adding distraction, and the disappointing fact that this concert >was at the end of a long, grueling tour played in venues that were mostly >only about 2/3 full. >-------- >Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to >JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. >-------- > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:16:54 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs tape trees (NJC) I would like to add some legal remarks to the thread -- without really wanting to go into discussing the ethical side of bootlegs vs. tape trees. Bootlegging definitely sucks hard, but "tape treeing" with illegal recordings isn't exactly o.k. either. It is not really true that distributing tape trees with illegally taped material does not harm the person who holds the immaterial property right (Joni). Her right to her own product (her performance/her songs) and her copyright imply the right to decide to record or not to record, and to distribute her songs or not to distribute them. Thus, somebody who tapes her concerts without her consent and then copies and further distributes the recordings is actually committing three independent violations (!). At least legally, forwarding the copies for free doesn't really change a whole lot. The point here is that IF Joni decided to sell copies of the concerts in question, she would make money of it. Thus, the financial dimension is there, even when nobody is profiting for the time being. In order to determine the damage compensation and penalty, a judge would determine how much money COULD have been made. There can be no doubt about "tape treeing" being just as illegal as bootlegging, if it contains material that was taped without the (outspoken or implied) permission of the performing artist. There will be much higher penalties though on bootlegging, which might also be a serious criminal offense, if done professionally. Of course, it is highly unlikely that record companies will go after nonprofit tape trees, mainly because it wouldn't be worth the hassle. However, if they chose to, they would win their cases, and we would have to pay them at least the amount we COULD have made with the tapes, plus a relatively small penalty sum. If asked to, a court would also compel us to stay away from further violations, and then, the next time, things would really become expensive. The reason for this is that the law already wants to protect the rights of the artists to decide what to do with their works of art. I think this is both necessary and legitimate. I still like the tape trees though, and I'm already looking forward to the next one to arrive! Winfried, only human, after all ____________________________________________________________ Michael, and everybody else who's interested, (probably not too many :-)) I now quote and translate the relevant portions of the German originator's rights law ("Urheberrechtsgesetz, UrhG") Sorry about the bad English, the starting point being German legalese. §1 UrhG "The originators of works of literature, science and art are protected relating to their works according to this law." §2 UrhG "...protected are especially... 1. Works of speech, as written works, speeches and computer programs 2. works of music ..." §15 UrhG "(1) The originator has the exclusive right to exploit his work; the right implies especially: 1. the right to copy 2. the right to distribute 3. the right to exhibit" §17 UrhG "The right to distribute is the right to offer the work or a copy to the public or to initiate its circulation" §75 UrhG "(1) The performance of an artist may only be recorded onto carriers of sound or picture with his prior consent. (2) The artist has the exclusive right to copy and to distribute the carrier of sound or picture." §96 UrhG "Illegally produced copies may neither be distributed nor used for public renderings." §97 UrhG "Claim to omission and damage compensation" claim exists if: - - violation ocurred - - negligently or deliberately - - amount depends on how much money could have been asked for a permission §98 UrhG "Claim to destruction or handing over of illegal copies" §99 UrhG "Claim to destruction or handing over of recording equipment"(!) ( - if exclusively or nearly exclusively used for producing illegal copies) - ------ criminal penalty provisions ---- §106 UrhG: Illegal exploitation of protected works "(1) A person who multiplies, distributes or publically renders a work...in other circumstances than the ones permitted by this law...without the prior consent of the holder of the right, shall be punished with up to three years of inprisonment or payment of monetary penalty..." §108: - up to 5 years of inprisonment, if the violations were performed in a professional manner §109 In circumstances covered in the §§106 - 108, the violation will only be prosecuted upon a filed complaint, unless the prosecuting authority holds an intervention to be necessary on grounds of public interest As I've heard from international lawyers, American copyright law is likely to be even tougher on this. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:29:37 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Shawn Colvin?/Sessions @ W. 54th (JC) Hi everyone- While I was channel surfing last night, I caught a little bit of Sessions @ W. 54th. I think Shawn Colvin was on. The first line I heard was "Joni Mitchell. 1 finger over the fret. Wang." And I guess she was saying how easy it was for Joni to make alternate-tuning chords compared to ones on a standard tuned guitar. And it got me to thinking: All this talk about Joni on Oprah and no one has mentioned emailing Sessions about having Joni on? Their website is: http://www.sessionsatwest54th.com . Come on, now! Get over there and tell 'em we need Joni on it! Mark, trying to end his run-on sentences ____________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |__________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:57:50 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Joni on Oprah Mark Domyancich wrote: > And it got me to thinking: All this talk about Joni on Oprah and no one has > mentioned emailing Sessions about having Joni on? I would love to see Joni on Sessions or on Austin City Limits. But I wonder if Joni on Oprah is very likely to happen. The reason I say this is that the nature of Oprah's program would seem to dictate that Oprah would want Joni to talk about Kilauren and the reunion and the adoption etc, etc and so forth. We already know that Joni cancelled an interview with Barbara Walters that would have centered on this subject. Would she be any more likely to want to talk to Oprah about it? I don't mean to rain on anybody's parade but...(btw, didn't Babs look just like she did in the bride number in 'Funny Girl' - minus the pillow - in her wedding photos? Like buttah!) As far as bootlegs & tape trees are concerned, I certainly feel the ethical conflicts they create but when I read that a recording of one of the Gorge concerts would be on the next tape tree I started to salivate. I'm afraid having a lasting record of that wonderful experience is going to outweigh any ethical concerns it might raise. As someone else said, I'm human, you know? I was also wondering about tapes made from radio and TV broadcasts. Where do they fall in the whole bootleg/tapetree debate? I taped the Gene Autrey museum concert when a local radio station carried it a few years back (although the tape tree quality is much better than mine, thank you so much Simon!). And many JMDLers contributed video footage for the video tape trees. This material was originally recorded for the individual's personal use only. Does that exempt it from the laws that apply to bootlegs? Mark in Seattle - who is not the most well-informed person in the world about this stuff and is wondering. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:22:17 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on Oprah In a message dated 98-07-19 15:00:46 EDT, you write: << er if Joni on Oprah is very likely to happen. The reason I say this is that the nature of Oprah's program would seem to dictate that Oprah would want Joni to talk about Kilauren and the reunion and the adoption etc, etc and so forth. >> Mark, I had the same thoughts about this probability. Oprah would almost certainly not want Joni without Kilauren on the same program, or at least to devote almost the entire interview to the subject. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:57:30 -0400 From: Maggie McNally Subject: bootlegs and taping Hi all, Forgive me if some feel that this has played out, but I wanted to throw in my $.02 on this discussion and would welcome additional discourse. I can't help but feel that we're in a "shadows and light" situation here in our discussion of bootlegs vs. taping. As others have said, the Grateful Dead are famous for their open taping policy, and it is in direct response to the threat of bootlegs. The band made a consious decision years ago that they'd rather sanction taping (even setting aside an area just behind the soundboard) for quality tapes to be traded in a not-for-profit situation, because they were pragmatic enough to accept the realities of market demand. But I join others in wondering about Joni's awareness and response to our Tapetrees. The music is mostly music that is not commercially available, which means that we are not robbing her of profits, and I love having it to listen to and enhance my appreciation of her talent and how she has matured. I certainly own all her discs (having replaced the vinyl collection I started in 1970 but hold onto out of love and nostalgia), and am probably representative of the typical "ardent admirer" in my desire to hear it ALL. But I cannot help but wonder if she wants it out there. If it isn't commercially available (e.g., the old 2nd Fret stuff), is it because she doesn't WANT us to hear it? Especially since she has such high standards, does it bother her that there is recorded material out there that she hasn't released? Do we have a responsibility to respect that, or does history justify our actions? It just doesn't seem so black and white to me. Just wondering. Best, Maggie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:04:29 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC: Re: Selling Bootleg recordings Since we have the JMDL, I believe that buying bootlegs recordings are entirely unnecessary. Through the JMDL, I have been fortunate enough to get excellent quality recordings of Joni at various radio stations in all phases of her career. By making tapes of these radio appearances for other JMDL folks, I traded for a recording of JM on the BBC, talking about her influences. I made it available to the JMDL tape tree organizers, and it was included in a tape tree. It was quite satisfying to know that my contribution made its way into everyone's tape collections without charge. The JMDL is about sharing for free. It's a wild concept but once you get the hang of it, it's quite powerful. The tape trees are based on the premise that making dupes of un-copywritten material should be available as widely as possible, for free. JMDL members exchange blank tapes for ones with the recording on them. - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:13:14 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Joni on Oprah Paul- Mark in Seattle brought up the reply on Oprah. It's true: Oprah can be incredibly cheesy at times and I don't think the average Oprah audience would like Joni. Now if the audience was full of us....! Mark (In Seattle) wrote: >In a message dated 98-07-19 15:00:46 EDT, you write: > ><< er if Joni on Oprah is very likely to happen. The reason I say this > is that the nature of Oprah's program would seem to dictate that Oprah > would want Joni to talk about Kilauren and the reunion and the adoption > etc, etc and so forth. >> And Paul Ivice wrote in responce to what he thought I said! >Mark, > I had the same thoughts about this probability. Oprah would almost certainly >not want Joni without Kilauren on the same program, or at least to devote >almost the entire interview to the subject. >Paul I Mark the II NP-Edith and the Kingpin (Another revival) ____________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |__________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:44:04 EDT From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Joni on Oprah Not long ago, Joni declined an appearance on Oprah and had committed to an interview with Barbara Walters on 20/20. This was during the press feeding frenzy over the reunion with Kilauren. Needless to say, the interview fell through. More, and rightfully so (IMHO), negative press claiming that Joni was actually exploiting the reunion to gain a higher level of exposure for her career. We here, know this is so far from the truth of Joni's intent. Basically, given the sensitivity and personal nature of the situation, Joni didn't need any pollution from the press, so she declined. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:54:53 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Sessions @ W. 54th (JC) <<>> It is a perfect venue for her, no doubt. On top of that, I happen to know that when Patti Smith was on, any fan was able to get into the audience with a simple fax to the show's producers. That would be a great opportunity for us East Coasters... The caveat is that the host is no longer Chris Douridas. MTV News reported this week that David Byrne would be taking over, and that the performers will largely reflect his taste in music, so he could perform with them if he so wished. I have no idea if this bodes well for Joni or not--perhaps someone else knows David's opinion of her? You can read about the host change on http://www.mtv.com/ - --Michael NP: Patti Smith in the WBAI Studio, 5/28/75 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:24:32 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Taming The Tiger (UK release) FWIW: i'm on Digest and don't receive the individual messages as they're posted. however Kenny was kind enough to forward the following to me a short while ago. >__________________________________________________________________________ >Is it possible for TTT to be released in the UK in July '98 and in the US >in Sept. '98 (or later)? > >What are the chances of the UK release containing the exact >same soundtrack (and to a lesser degree packaging) as the US release? > >simon? Anyone? > >Kenny > >On 7/19/98 11:03AM, WirlyPearl@aol.com wrote: > > Hi guys, > > I checked out the CD Zone site which can be easily reached at > http://www.cdzone.co.uk. > > Just type in Joni Mitchell or Taming the Tiger in the little box. > It is indeed being released for sale starting July 17th!!! > > They convert the cost for you, so in US dollars it comes out to > about $21.25 which includes the shipping. This is great news for > all those who can't wait until the end of September and who are > willing to pay a little extra to start enjoying it now. Thanks for > the great info, Paul. > > Pearl >__________________________________________________________________________ Possible? yea i guess it's possible, but NOT likely! actually it usually works the other way around. an album will be released domestically, before being released overseas, or released simultaneously. this is especially the case with US artists/albums. two years ago "Matapedia" by Kate & Anna McGarrigle was released in the UK 1-day ahead of the US release to coincide with a Tour that started on that day. a UK release two months before a *Tentative* US release date is almost out of the question. the proof is in the pudding, the 17 was friday. perhaps one of our UK members can call these folks tomorrow and find out if they have this CD *In Stock*. there IS a difference between listing a CD, and actually HAVING it. July 17th WAS at one point the tentative US release date. in all likelihood never updated their info. Kenny, i would also expect the US and UK releases to contain the exact! same track listing and packaging. any differences would likely occur with the Japanese CD release. for instance the Japanese CD of Robbie Robertson's latest release "Contact From The Underworld Of Redboy", contains 3-Bonus Tracks not found on the US release (14 tracks total). with Joni this is not likely. I don't expect it, but would LOVE to be proven wrong. below is the latest information from the Reprise Records Website. for now ~ take care, - ------- simon - ------- New Releases on Reprise and Reprise-affiliated labels (which appear in parentheses) Disclaimer: all dates are subject to change! (Updated each and every week folks!) (Some dates are TENTATIVE) September 8 - (tentative) Papaya "Pink" (Maverick) 8 - (tentative) Frank Sinatra (4 reissues) "I Remember Tommy," "Sinatra & Strings," "Sinatra and Swingin' Brass," & "It Might As Well Be Swing" 15 - (tentative) Morrissey "My Early Burglary Years" 15 - (tentative) Lisa Hall "Is This Real?" 15 - (tentative) "Executive Privilege: A Presidential Comedy" 15 - (tentative) Various Artists "Wedding Day Music" 22 - (tentative) Mudhoney "Tomorrow Hit Today" 22 - (tentative) Chris Isaak 29 - (tentative) JONI MITCHELL ______________________________ Albums To Be Scheduled For Release in 1998 Michael McDonald Jeff Lynne Filter Lindsey Buckingham Cher Randy Newman Neil Young Roger JONI MITCHELL   P.S. Tentative in this case more than likely means *after* 9-29-98. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 14:25:39 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: JM on LM? Does anyone know if Joni has ever discussed the music of Loreena McKennitt in any of the articles/interviews. Thanks. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:35:36 EDT From: ORLTed@aol.com Subject: to buy or not to buy? bootlegs, etc. gang, okay...let's face it...we ALL love joni and want to listen to her music. her recent live performances were major life events for some of us, and we travelled far and wide to attend them. i know i have always bought her commercial releases on the first day they are available for sale. and i always end up buying multiple copies of her cds, her book (poetry & lyrics) and give them to my friends as gifts. i'm sure most of you do the same. but if a cd is available for sale of a concert that will never be released by her label, why are we ripping joni off by buying a bootleg? because she won't share in the profits? i don't buy it. i wish joni would be a bit more prolific so we could buy LOTS more studio quality cd's...but the fact is she isn't. i would love to have copies of her recent live performances. it certainly won't prevent me from buying any commercial products that come out over time!!! my objection to bootleggers would be if they tried to sell copies of commercially available material at reduced prices without sharing profits with the artist. that would be criminal. on the other hand, making a product available that is not accessible any other way is a service, not a crime. (okay, i know that legally i'm incorrect here, but you get my point) i also resent the rude treatment of a lister who is informing us of such opportunities. if i knew of a source for good quality cds of the recent live performances and wanted to share this info with the list, i would be pissed off at the implication that i was part of a conspiracy to rip off joni. i just don't see it that way. i would NEVER rip off joni. just my thoughts. ted in orlando ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 98 21:45:32 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Joni on Oprah While I agreee that the Joni/Kilauren reunion would be an interesting topic for Oprah and her audience (right up their alley), I think that Oprah has had a tremendous amount of experience interviewing celebrities, all of whom have topics that they prefer to shy away from. I also think, as a celebrity herself, Oprah is sensitive to and respectful of her guests' wishes to avoid certain subjects. The question then becomes can Oprah spend 30 minutes (what's left after 3 songs and commercials) focusing on Joni's music and highly prolific 30+ year career, with only a passing nod (which many have made) to Kilauren...or with no mention of it at all if Joni so requests? I think so! -Kenny Mark in Seattle wrote: I wonder if Joni on Oprah is very likely to happen. The reason I say this is that the nature of Oprah's program would seem to dictate that Oprah would want Joni to talk about Kilauren and the reunion and the adoption etc, etc and so forth. IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: Mark, I had the same thoughts about this probability. Oprah would almost certainly not want Joni without Kilauren on the same program, or at least to devote almost the entire interview to the subject. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:00:42 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Re: The Unfiltered Joni Mitchell - Part 2 (Mojo 8/98) Rob Jordan wrote: [from the mouth of our Joan, amen] > I never liked copycats, and I just found out > why from these horoscope books that just came out. I'm born the Day > of the Discoverer in the Week of Depth. really love innovators. I > love the first guy to put the flag at the North Pole; the guy that > went there second doesn't interest me a lot of times. Although some > could say that Wayne Shorter is the guy who got there second, but he > took it somewhere. So Dylan went to Woody, and you have to build > off of something. Uh oh, please don't anyone ever show Joni our parodies of her works. The shame...oh, the shame... >No everybody comes out of the blue as a genuine muse - >a real cosmic muse. But what about a comic muse, Joni? A cheap rehash of your lyrics just for the fun of it? > It used to be that's what music was - > but now it's formulated. And, especially, it's become a producers' > art, who's an interior decorator basically. Oh, Duane, Duane! What are we going to do? Marsha, cheap comic and a'muse'd p.s. Thanks so much, Rob, for reprinting this for us. The August Mojo is not on the shelves here yet, and with this fine stuff, I know I'm running out to spend the $7.95 for the rag with it's many pictures, too! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:30:11 EDT From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: The Unfiltered Joni Mitchell - Part 2 (Mojo 8/98) In a message dated 98-07-19 19:06:09 EDT, docnurse@VoyagerOnline.net writes: << > It used to be that's what music was - > but now it's formulated. And, especially, it's become a producers' > art, who's an interior decorator basically. Oh, Duane, Duane! What are we going to do? >> Marsha, PLEASE, read my interests paragraph in the gallery....."I'm a painter first!" Producer/Interior Decorator maybe 4th or 5th. It's my straight job! Yes, I've had to "produce" my circumstances, because I'm a Princeton country boy. Oh my God! No offense taken Joni! Duane NP: Bjork, All Neon Like ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 19:34:03 EDT From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: P.S. Re: The Unfiltered Joni Mitchell - Part 2 (Mojo 8/98) That's if you call interior decorating for a guy a "straight" job! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:19:59 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Re: to buy or not to buy? bootlegs, etc. > From: ORLTed@aol.com > > gang, > > okay...let's face it...we ALL love joni and want to listen to her music. her > recent live performances were major life events for some of us, and we > travelled far and wide to attend them. > > i know i have always bought her commercial releases on the first day they are > available for sale. and i always end up buying multiple copies of her cds, > her book (poetry & lyrics) and give them to my friends as gifts. i'm sure > most of you do the same. > > but if a cd is available for sale of a concert that will never be released by > her label, why are we ripping joni off by buying a bootleg? because she won't > share in the profits? i don't buy it. i wish joni would be a bit more > prolific so we could buy LOTS more studio quality cd's...but the fact is she > isn't. i would love to have copies of her recent live performances. it > certainly won't prevent me from buying any commercial products that come out > over time!!! > > my objection to bootleggers would be if they tried to sell copies of > commercially available material at reduced prices without sharing profits with > the artist. that would be criminal. on the other hand, making a product > available that is not accessible any other way is a service, not a crime. > (okay, i know that legally i'm incorrect here, but you get my point) > > i also resent the rude treatment of a lister who is informing us of such > opportunities. > if i knew of a source for good quality cds of the recent live performances and > wanted to share this info with the list, i would be pissed off at the > implication that i was part of a conspiracy to rip off joni. i just don't see > it that way. i would NEVER rip off joni. > > just my thoughts. > > ted in orlando First, let me say that Ted has a right to his opinion, and I thank him for his post. Second, although I'm probably going to anger a few people with this reply, that is not my intention. As I have stated in my previous posts, I'm interested in discussing the ethics of tape trees and bootlegging, not in condemning any individual's behavior or opinion. So in the interests of open discussion and debate, and the search for higher consciousness and understanding, here goes... I find Ted's post, well... disappointing. The finer points of the arguments surrounding the ethics of tape trees are probably lost on anyone that is openly advocating the purchase of bootleg CDs, as Ted *appears* to be doing. First of all, now matter how much you *desire* to collect more of Joni's performances, it does not justify anything. Allowing your personal desires to compromise your ethics is exactly what I was talking about in my post of 7/18 to Kenny Grant and the JMDL: "It's so easy to evade responsibility in today's crazy world, to think of ourselves as blameless and guiltless, or worse, as correcting a wrong, and turning a blind eye to the fact that we are getting what we want in the process, at someone else's expense. The fact that a greater evil exists (bootlegging) and that we did not commit the original crime makes it easy to excuse ourselves. Joni is still the victim, even if tape trees make her less victimized than the alternative." I thought David Marine, in his reply to me of 7/18, exhibited tremendous courage, honesty and insight when he wrote: "Oh, I don't know, I'm probably grinding an axe. I asked myself the same question this evening as I hiked the canyon. In truth, I'm ambivalent about the issue, and maybe that's why my rhetoric sounded aggressive to you. Joni's set at the Pauley concert was one of the most extraordinary hours of my existence, and I want a copy of it, you know? On the other hand, I would never want to do a disservice to her. I do consider the ethical questions involved, as I believe others on this list do (including the aforementioned trinity [Wally, Les, Simon])." Don Sloan, in his post of 7/18 wrote: "Most people commit criminal acts because they don't view the acts as criminal or *wrong*. Most law-abiding citizens act lawfully not because of the *law* or police but rather due to their moral code of conduct. Most criminals - bootleggers or burglars - are not doing crime because they need to feed their kids. They do crime because in their head it's okay. Most criminals are opportunists; they take advantage of a situation or person in a way that allows them to profit, usually without much effort." Now to bring all this together - when someone records one of Joni's performances without her permission, that property has been STOLEN from her, legally and ethically. I sincerely doubt that very many readers of this list would argue this point, although there are undoubtedly a few. If Joni gave her permission, then we have a completely different situation. The problem arises because the stolen property becomes available to us after the fact, and we desire to possess that property. It is an ethical dilemma, and not a simple one. What right, if any, do we have to acquire and "own" this stolen property? At this point things get slippery. First, the obvious crime has already been committed, and we are innocent of involvement. Second, the law regarding the stolen property is less well-known, and perhaps more ambiguous, so we think we have "softer" legal constraints. But the most important issue is the one Bob Sloan raised - "Most people commit criminal acts because they don't view the acts as criminal or *wrong*. Most law-abiding citizens act lawfully not because of the *law* or police but rather due to their moral code of conduct." In other words, we fall back on our own *subjective* sense of right and wrong, and we justify our decisions and actions according to that subjective code. The result is that we encounter a wide range of opinions and behaviors because we have a wide range of moral values in our society. If we are sitting on the fence with respect to this issue, it is too easy to fall on one side if we have a strong desire to possess the stolen property. The problem becomes even more complicated for JMDL members because the implicit victim in this thread has been Joni, someone we all respect and admire. Many times criminals don't practice criminal acts against members of their own family, because the close relationship causes them to see those acts as "wrong", even though they view them as "right" when perpetrated against total strangers. This juxtaposition IMO opinion allows people to say, as Ted did: > if i knew of a source for good quality [bootlegged] cds > of the recent live performances and > wanted to share this info with the list, i would be pissed > off at the implication that i was part of a conspiracy to rip off joni. > i just don't see it that way. i would NEVER rip off joni. I believe Ted 100% when he says he just doesn't see it that way. [Nothing personal Ted, it was just a good example of a particular point of view]. The problem is that we all just can't go and do what we want because that's how we see it when there are *victims*, especially victims close to our hearts. I think we owe it to Joni and ourselves to explore this issue more deeply and honestly, to attempt a conclusion that is not swimming in a quagmire of subjectivity. That's why I've been involved in posting to this thread. I've only seen one post so far (from Les) in response to my suggestion made earlier today: "Supposing someone who knew Joni (Wally?) and who could also act as a convincing spokesperson for the tape trees and the anti-bootlegging crusade actually spoke to her and asked for her blessing of the tape trees. If she agreed, then the JMDL tapes trees would become "official". This would strengthen their power as a deterrent to bootlegging, clear up much of the ethical ambiguity surrounding the tape trees, and allow fans to feel really good about owning the tapes. If she said no, then not much will have changed from where we are now, except that some fans who are conflicted regarding the ethical questions will have a clearer idea of the choices they are making. What do you (all of you) think?" At this point I'm not exactly sure how to interpret the deafening silence in response to this suggestion. Perhaps everybody is too busy? Perhaps no-one cares? Perhaps you all wish I would shut-up and go away? In any case, I think this will be my sign-off on this thread. If it is *not* a real concern of this community, then more words from me are probably just annoying. If it *is* a concern of this community, then more words from me are unnecessary. Either way, I'm outta here. Thanks for reading. Brian ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #265 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?