From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #263 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, July 18 1998 Volume 03 : Number 263 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Bethel concert [Robbert ] Ani DiFranco (was Re: Chrissie content) (NJC) [Bolvangar@aol.com] re: Oprah LJC [Robert Holliston ] Re: JMDL Digest V3 #262 [Chilihead2@aol.com] NJC Funny new movie ["Julie Z. Webb" ] mojo article and a mirror [Gertus@aol.com] Round and round [Marsha ] Re: Crime in N.O. (NJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: NJC-- omnivores [Thomas Ross ] Re: Crime in N.O./Fla (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: NJC Shameless Self promotion [Thomas Ross ] Re: OTSFM....Where Have I Been? (LJC) [Scott and Jody ] Re: Crime in N.O. (NJC) [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Mostly Melancholia, Bootleg SCUMBAG$ [simon@icu.com] Re: Crime in N.O./Fla (NJC) [catman ] Bootlegs vs Trees [Les Irvin ] Re: Mostly Melancholia, Bootleg SCUMBAG$ [catman ] Re: Mostly Melancholia, Bootleg SCUMBAG$ [Mark Domyancich ] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees [Les Irvin ] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees [Wally Breese ] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees [briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian)] RE: Crime in N.O. (NJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Oprah [Michael Paz ] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Richard Thompson (NJC) [Marsha ] RE: Crime in N.O. (NJC) [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: Richard Thompson (NJC) [catman ] (tangential JC) taping concerts [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees (SJC) [davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine)] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees [briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian)] Re: (tangential JC) taping concerts [briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian] Re: Bootlegs vs Trees (SJC) [briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:35:06 +0200 From: Robbert Subject: Bethel concert Hi everybody! This is Robbert writing from Holland. I hope anyone has the answers to my questions about the Day in the Garden concert on August 15. I will be in the area and consider going. Can anybody tell me whether Joni is headlining? And also, how many people will attend? Should I think of 100,000? 250,000? Or maybe a "small" crowd of 25,000? In addition, is it standing only, or are there seats? Any idea on the price of the ticket for one day only? I would really appreciate your information on this! Thank you in advance! Best, Robbert ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 04:17:26 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Ani DiFranco (was Re: Chrissie content) (NJC) I wrote: <<...."no one wants to hear a whining female" (or an empowered female?), true, but male execs will still look for the opportunity to turn a profit commodifying female discontent. I think a good living example of this is Ani DiFranco.>> I have received a couple private mails about this statement so I wanted to clarify. Ani releases her records on her own label, Righteous Babe -- but she has described in interviews (I think the one I'm remembering is from when she was on the cover of Spin a while back) the considerable offers she has received and refused from mainstream labels who want to get in on her success, even though she's actively fighting their system, and even though she writes from the point of view, I think, of someone who has been and continues to be marginalized by the mainstream! They want to have their cake and eat it too -- commodifying the discontent of people that they've helped to make discontent. I didn't mean to imply that male execs are making a profit on Ani DiFranco. They aren't, but not for lack of trying. Hope this helps. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:22:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: Oprah LJC Dear Sue: re: emailing Oprah: Count me in - I didn't identify myself as a JMDLer, but I did include quotes from the great Van/Joni/Bob review by Dave DiMartino which appeared in the July issue of Mojo. Still waiting for a response.... Best, Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:00:17 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Re: JMDL Digest V3 #262 Hi Julie, I graduated in 1979, my school was not hip enough to have Joni lyrics , we were too busy having riots that got national press (Danbury High, CT) and getting high which was why they appropriately although unsuspectingly named it High School. But when my wife and I got married we put these words on the invitation "I remember that time you told me...love is touching souls." - -Brian PS I remember reading an interview of Joni in Interview magazine around the mid 80s. Joni said in the 60s we thought we could change the world. In the 70s we realized we couldn't change the world, so we tried to change ourselves. In the 80s we realized we couldn't change ourselves, so we said let's make money. ......Wonder what she thinks the 90s are about? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:47:55 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: NJC Funny new movie To JMDL filmlovers who often ask me what movies to see: We went to see "Something About Mary," and had a blast! I can't remember laughing so hard at a movie in sometime. If you are willing to surrender taste and know beforehand that the humor is crude and sometimes in bad taste...(because, it will probably offend some,) BUT know that ultimately the real joke is on the very stupid, insensitive characters who are trying to come off clever in order to impress and charm the beautiful Cameron Diaz----but instead they are so politically inncorrect that it's shockingly hillarious....I guess it shocks---because most of us don't really know people **that** "out of touch" with social mores. Ben Stiller's character, as the deadpan, good-hearted "everyman," who's been in (tormented) love with Mary since high school, is played with perfect timing----- made me realize what a great genetic/comedic offspring Stiller and Meara have produced. And Matt Dillon, Cameron Diaz's boyfriend in real life, has the funniest "Sleaze" character ever written for an actor. -Julie, if you see this movie, please email me because Id love to discuss. Jon and I woke up laughing this morning describing scenes that cracked us up the most. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:50:49 EDT From: Gertus@aol.com Subject: mojo article and a mirror In this morning's UK Daily Telegraph there is a short list of quotes of the week and one of them is a quote by Joni Mitchell about her correcting the Yeats poem "Slouching Towards Bethlehem". This amazed me and set me wondering about where the quote was taken from. I decided to consult "The List" and soon found out that both Jamie Jake and Rob Jordan had posted about the Mojo article (thank you both). I rushed out and bought it and am impressed by the length and quality of the interview and by the superb photographs. Get hold of a copy if you can. 0n the "mirror" thread, although not strictly relevent to Barrangrill, she says the following about her songs:- "The songs shift around- either it means something to you or it doesn't. And that's one reason why I resent the "who is it about?" fixing it in time, "it's about that over there..." No it isn't, it's a mirror - and it reflects you if you take the time to look as you pass by." Jacky ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:56:48 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Round and round Chilihead2@aol.com wrote: > PS I remember reading an interview of Joni in Interview magazine around the > mid 80s. Joni said in the 60s we thought we could change the world. In the 70s > we realized we couldn't change the world, so we tried to change ourselves. In > the 80s we realized we couldn't change ourselves, so we said let's make money. > ......Wonder what she thinks the 90s are about? Maybe something like: "And the seasons they go round and round And the painted ponies go up and down We're captive on the carousel of time We can't return we can only look behind From where we came And go round and round and round In the circle game" JM Marsha-millenia-minded... getting older and feeling it a lot lately ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:53:44 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Crime in N.O. (NJC) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:45:45 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Have to say my trip last year to N.O. was such that I won't be back. I'm a native New Yorker, and I was petrified to walk any further than a few blocks from our very loveley Rue Royale. Every where we went there were tales of crime and muggings and pipes smashed over heads. And I found the police and service people there to be surprisingly rude considering tourism is such a major industry. Here in FL, when out-of-towners ask for directions we practically walk them to their destinations. Even our first night there we walked at 10 p.m. to a bar about 7 blocks away. No big deal we thought. The bartender went on about how crazy we were to walk through "those neighborhoods" and that just last night there were 4 murders in the city. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:22:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Re: NJC-- omnivores "I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals: I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants!" - ---- unknown ssource TR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:17 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Crime in N.O./Fla (NJC) In a message dated 98-07-18 11:52:08 EDT, les@jmdl.com writes: << Here in FL, when out-of-towners ask for directions we practically walk them to their destinations >> Jerry, Obviously you are distraught after your bad experience in N'yawlins, but I cannot help but comment on your distorted description of Florida, the "tourist paradise." I'm sure YOU are kind and considerate to tourists, as am I to the few that come to Jacksonville, but how easily you forget this is the state that gained notoriety for the "tourist murders," both in Miami and along various stretches of the interstate highways here, which led to the posting of armed guards at highway rest stops. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:47:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Re: NJC Shameless Self promotion julie: congraats and I hope it helps sales like crazy! TR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:54:02 -0500 From: Scott and Jody Subject: Re: OTSFM....Where Have I Been? (LJC) Thanks to all who wrote about Joni in Chicago. I just now read the past posts. I can't believe I live in Chicago(well, 20 minutes away....I used to live around Lincoln Square), and had not heard anything up until yesterday. For you Chicago folks, there was an article in The Reader's Guide(pg.33) on OTSFM. I just read Doug's post about writing to WXRT. Aside from breakfast with Bremer, they often invite artists to come down to the studio the morning or afternoon prior to their performance. Please drop them a line @ www.wxrt.com I know we've been concentrating on Oprah and I hope it happens!!! XRT is another option. Who knows, maybe she'll appear on both. Please write WXRT......If Joni does perform, I will personally make tapes for everyone. jody ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:56:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Re: More Shameless Self-promotion NJC sounds great, Howwaardd! I'd love to see it. know a bit of such things only through doing 3d animation. TR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 17:03:04 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Crime in N.O. (NJC) I have to admit that I find it extremely disturbing that crime in New Orleans has reached such horrendous and disgusting proportions. What angers me most is that it has been allowed to reach such a state where "everyone knows" how serious the problem is. I certainly didn't know till I read it here, and would have been very annoyed if I'd gone there and found out how bad things were after I'd arrived. How can rampant crime go on in this day and age? Aren't the good citizens and business owners up in arms over this? And if the city of New Orleans doesn't have the resources to hire and train an additional 500 police officers (or whatever it takes to curb the problem), shouldn't the federal government be stepping in? There is such immense wealth in this country, and the federal government, who gets a sizeable chunk of the income earned by every individual and corporation in this land, with no unusual (eg. wartime) expenses right now, should be demanding to help such a key city with a such a big crime problem. On the brighter side, NYC is now experiencing a record LOW crime rate. I just heard on the news yesterday that they are proposing to reduce the NYPD by 3000 people, through attrition, with the savings going to pay increases and officer retirement funds. And the officers here get considerably more than the $18K/yr. that they get in New Orleans -- in fact most of them probably pay more than that in taxes on their income! Maybe they should send 1000 of NY's finest down to New Orleans for a couple of months... -Kenny On 7/18/98 Jerry Notaro wrote: Have to say my trip last year to N.O. was such that I won't be back. I'm a native New Yorker, and I was petrified to walk any further than a few blocks from our very loveley Rue Royale. Every where we went there were tales of crime and muggings and pipes smashed over heads. And I found the police and service people there to be surprisingly rude considering tourism is such a major industry. Here in FL, when out-of-towners ask for directions we practically walk them to their destinations. Even our first night there we walked at 10 p.m. to a bar about 7 blocks away. No big deal we thought. The bartender went on about how crazy we were to walk through "those neighborhoods" and that just last night there were 4 murders in the city. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:57:22 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Mostly Melancholia, Bootleg SCUMBAG$ RE: the following from Chuck Reese ... >_______________________________________________________________________ >I just got a new live CD album of Joni Mitchell's complete performance >at Pauley Pavilion in Los Angeles on May 22, 1998. I attended five of >Joni's West Coast concerts and this one was certainly my favorite. > >What a souvenir. > >I was able to get some extra copies of this album, so if anyone is >interested in picking up one of these, please contact me privately >via email for more details. >_______________________________________________________________________ hey Chuck, you DO realize that BOOTLEGs are Illegal. right? you DO realize that BOOTLEGs are Unethical. right? you DO realize that BOOTLEGGER$ *Exploit* musicians for *their own* financial gain. right? why would you want to contribute to their exploitation of Joni Mitchell by helping them sell their wares? i notice you DIDN'T offer to make tape copies for Blanks 'n Postage, as other JMDL members have done. i notice you haven't mentioned using your precious little BOOTLEG as Seed material for a TapeTree. An excerpt from the JMDL TapeTree FAQ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >MOTIVATION > >First a little propaganda as to our motivation for running TreeS ... > >First and foremost it is to share with others quality music that we >have been lucky enough to obtain. > >Trees also serve the purpose of helping new tape collectors to get their >collections going. People who are new to tape collecting are welcome and >encouraged to sign up for the TapeTrees. > >One of our motivations for running TapeTreeS is to try to DISCOURAGE >people from feeling the need to partake of the large commerical bootleg >market out there. We won't go into a long tirade against commerical >bootleg$ here. Let's just say that we personally view commercial bootleg >producer$ to be disrespectful of an artists rights by CA$HING in on the >artist's music without any consideration for the artist. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- here on the JMDL, we're a community ~ a family of folks with a shared interest in the Art, Artistry & Music of Joni Mitchell. here on the JMDL, we're about sharing with each other ... *sharing* that which Joni Mitchell has shared with all of us. one of the ways we do this is thru the use of our TapeTreeS, offering the best available 'vintage' recordings as well as current performances when available [as time allows]. WE do this _free of charge_, WE do this for Blanks 'n Postage, WE do this for No Profit! here on the JMDL ~ it's not about money it's not about exploitation please excuse me for coming on a little strong here but, I DON'T like bootleg$, I DON'T like bootlegger$, and i don't think we (the JMDL) should aid and abet them as they exploit Joni. a New collection of recordings Will Be made available to all JMDL members shortly. there will be no charge. Blanks'n Postage ~ that's all it takes. TapeTree #7 will include (at least) Joni Mitchell, the Gorge Amphitheatre, may 16, 1998 Joni Mitchell, Pauley Pavilion ~ L.A., may 22, 1998 Joni Mitchell, w/Tom Scott & The L.A. Express Temple Univ. Music Festival Ambler, Pa. aug. 22, 1974 final details are being worked out, stay tuned. we'll have a formal announcement posted by next friday (7-24-98). - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, if you don't stand for something ... you'll go for anything. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:55:57 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Crime in N.O./Fla (NJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-07-18 11:52:08 EDT, les@jmdl.com writes: > > << Here in FL, when out-of-towners ask > for directions we practically walk them to their destinations >> > > Jerry, > Obviously you are distraught after your bad experience in N'yawlins, but I > cannot help but comment on your distorted description of Florida, the "tourist > paradise." > I'm sure YOU are kind and considerate to tourists, as am I to the few that > come to Jacksonville, but how easily you forget this is the state that gained > notoriety for the "tourist murders," both in Miami and along various stretches > of the interstate highways here, which led to the posting of armed guards at > highway rest stops. A number of Brits have been murdered, mugged or raped in Flo. Including a couple just a few days ago! I guess it can be dangerous no matter where you go. One reason why when I did my trip I didn't 'do' any tourist places cept for niagra.The same could happen hetre in Lonon, tho I think we have less murders here in one year than somes US cities have in one week.(My guess is that this due to guns not being easily avavilable here) colin > > > Paul I - -- but who is it who is so eager to see that society’s norms are observed, who persecutes and crucifies those with the temerity to think differently - -if not the ones who have had a ‘proper upbringing’? They are the ones who learned as children to accept the death of their souls and not to notice it until they are confronted with the vitality of their young or adolescent children. Then they must try to stamp out this vitality, so they will not be reminded of thier own loss. Alice Miller. http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:07:58 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Bootlegs vs Trees ChuckReese wrote: >I just got a new live CD album of Joni Mitchell's >complete performance at Pauley Pavilion in Los >Angeles on May 22, 1998. Joniphiles - Well! What do you know... the bootlegs are starting to show up. I don't post a lot of opinions on this list but I must tell you - I'm with simon - I think bootleggers suck. I'll not pass judgement on ChuckReese as it is not clear from his post if he's manufacturing these or not. But, whoever is making these CDs is blatantly ripping off Joni Mitchell by illegally selling and profiting from her music. I guarantee you that Joni will not see a cent from this CD. One of the main reasons we offer tape trees on this list is to cut into the bootlegger's market and to reduce his/her profits. The more music we can spread for free - the less money into the pockets of these rip-off artists. simon announced a new tape tree coming soon - so now you have a choice: Bootlegger's Price = One concert for $20 or so Our Price = Three concerts and more for FREE And although I haven't heard the CD - I'll put money on the table that says the quality of the tree will be BETTER than that of the CD. So Joniphiles! You can pay the mystery bootleggers or you can get it for free from your friends in the Joni Mitchell Internet Community. Personally, I'll save my $20 for the Taming The Tiger release. At least I know that SOME of that will get back to Joni. Les ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:37:04 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Mostly Melancholia, Bootleg SCUMBAG$ simon@icu.com wrote: > RE: the following from Chuck Reese ... > >_______________________________________________________________________ > >I just got a new live CD album of Joni Mitchell's complete performance > >at Pauley Pavilion in Los Angeles on May 22, 1998. I attended five of > >Joni's West Coast concerts and this one was certainly my favorite. > > > >What a souvenir. > > > >I was able to get some extra copies of this album, so if anyone is > >interested in picking up one of these, please contact me privately > >via email for more details. > >_______________________________________________________________________ > > hey Chuck, > > you DO realize that BOOTLEGs are Illegal. right? > > you DO realize that BOOTLEGs are Unethical. right? > > you DO realize that BOOTLEGGER$ *Exploit* musicians > for *their own* financial gain. right? > > why would you want to contribute to their exploitation of Joni Mitchell > by helping them sell their wares? > > i notice you DIDN'T offer to make tape copies for Blanks 'n Postage, > as other JMDL members have done. > > i notice you haven't mentioned using your precious little BOOTLEG as > Seed material for a TapeTree. But as you stated earleir in post, as bootlegs are illegal, unethical etc we wouldn't want them on our tape tree would we? colin > > > An excerpt from the JMDL TapeTree FAQ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >MOTIVATION > > > >First a little propaganda as to our motivation for running TreeS ... > > > >First and foremost it is to share with others quality music that we > >have been lucky enough to obtain. > > > >Trees also serve the purpose of helping new tape collectors to get their > >collections going. People who are new to tape collecting are welcome and >encouraged to sign up for the TapeTrees. > > > >One of our motivations for running TapeTreeS is to try to DISCOURAGE > >people from feeling the need to partake of the large commerical bootleg > >market out there. We won't go into a long tirade against commerical > >bootleg$ here. Let's just say that we personally view commercial bootleg >producer$ to be disrespectful of an artists rights by CA$HING in on the > >artist's music without any consideration for the artist. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > here on the JMDL, we're a community ~ a family of folks with a > shared interest in the Art, Artistry & Music of Joni Mitchell. > > here on the JMDL, we're about sharing with each other ... > *sharing* that which Joni Mitchell has shared with all of us. > > one of the ways we do this is thru the use of our TapeTreeS, > offering the best available 'vintage' recordings as well as > current performances when available [as time allows]. > > WE do this _free of charge_, WE do this for Blanks 'n Postage, > > WE do this for No Profit! > > here on the JMDL ~ it's not about money > it's not about exploitation > > please excuse me for coming on a little strong here but, > I DON'T like bootleg$, I DON'T like bootlegger$, and i don't > think we (the JMDL) should aid and abet them as they exploit Joni. > > a New collection of recordings Will Be made available to all JMDL members > shortly. there will be no charge. Blanks'n Postage ~ that's all it takes. > > TapeTree #7 will include (at least) > > Joni Mitchell, the Gorge Amphitheatre, may 16, 1998 > Joni Mitchell, Pauley Pavilion ~ L.A., may 22, 1998 > > Joni Mitchell, w/Tom Scott & The L.A. Express > Temple Univ. Music Festival > Ambler, Pa. aug. 22, 1974 > > final details are being worked out, stay tuned. > we'll have a formal announcement posted by next friday (7-24-98). > > ------- > simon > ------- > > * Remember, if you don't stand for something > ... you'll go for anything. - -- but who is it who is so eager to see that society’s norms are observed, who persecutes and crucifies those with the temerity to think differently - -if not the ones who have had a ‘proper upbringing’? They are the ones who learned as children to accept the death of their souls and not to notice it until they are confronted with the vitality of their young or adolescent children. Then they must try to stamp out this vitality, so they will not be reminded of thier own loss. Alice Miller. http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:37:35 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees I really am not sure about this. I can see that copying albums and selling cheap, en masse, is not on. But a cd of something that is never going to be released anyway? Or are any of those recent concerts going to be realeased officially? if so, then the situation would be different. I don't understand how a man can be castigated for offereing a bootleg cd and at the same time be castigated for not offering it to the tape tree! colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:56:08 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Mostly Melancholia, Bootleg SCUMBAG$ YES! FINALLY A CONCERT FROM THE SEVENTIES! YIPPIE!!!!! Simon wrote: > Joni Mitchell, w/Tom Scott & The L.A. Express > Temple Univ. Music Festival > Ambler, Pa. aug. 22, 1974 > > ____________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |__________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:17:01 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Mostly Melancholia, Bootleg SCUMBAG$ At 07:37 PM 7/18/98 +0100, catman wrote: >But as you stated earleir in post, as bootlegs >are illegal, unethical etc we wouldn't want >them on our tape tree would we? colin et al - We all know that "stealth" recordings of concerts are made. Those who record them do one of three things with them: sell them illegally for their own profit (a bootlegger), keep them for their own private enjoyment, or pass them along to fans for free. One can argue the ethics of any of the above and make some pretty good points about each. However, when faced with the knowledge that bootlegs exist, and that these people are blatantly ripping off the artists, I personally feel pretty good about passing the same music out for free and undermining the illegal profiteers. We do it because we are fans of Joni Mitchell. We want her music to be heard. We feel that by doing so - by spreading her music to true fans - that those same people will be even more apt to support Joni in her art and livelihood. Tape trading promotes that - bootlegging tears it all down. Les ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:20:48 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees At 07:37 PM 7/18/98 +0100, catman wrote: >I don't understand how a man can be >castigated for offereing a bootleg cd and >at the same time be castigated for not >offering it to the tape tree! The difference is the motive: illegal profit vs the love of the music. In my mind there is a very distinct, undeniable difference. Les ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 19:49:10 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees Hey Colin, Simon's post, and Les', they way I read them, merely stated that bootlegging as a PRACTICE is unethical, in that money and profits are realized from the sale and distrubution of an artists music without the artist receiving any compensation from it -- a point that I whole-heartedly agree with. They both pointed out that there is a nice history/tradition of SHARING on the JMDL. Many of Joni's concerts have been distributed on the list via Tape Trees, I feel fortunate to have received so much great music -- from my favorite artist -- that I will enjoy for a lifetime -- all for the price of blanks and postage. (Those who aren't familiar with Tape Trees can read all about them at http://www.jmdl.com/tape/ --- those who need help getting their hands on previous tape trees, please e-mail me privately). Nobody needs the material available on this bootleg CD for the next Tape Tree, that material long existed (lots of listers attended the May concerts and forwarded seed material -- but it takes TIME to go thru the samples and master the tree). The way I see it a couple of simple points were made: 1- bootlegging is WRONG in general 2- VERY wrong when it involves our Joni 3- there's no place for it (or need for it) on this list, cause we SHARE around here, and in sharing (not selling) we don't compromise the artist. -Kenny Catman wrote: I don't understand how a man can be castigated for offereing a bootleg cd and at the same time be castigated for not offering it to the tape tree! colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 13:41:41 -0700 From: Wally Breese Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees Hi everyone, I want to post a few of my thoughts on the subject of bootlegs vs trees. I certainly understand a fan's desire to hear rare performances of an artist that fascinates them. I search for these tapes myself. But there's no need to buy a bootleg CD (or self produced CD-R) which will provide absolutely no income to Joni, who is, after all, the creator of the music, when free alternatives are available. That's why tape trees like the one that we all have here on the JMDL are important. They can satisfy the enthusiastic fan's need to hear rare tapes that are, no doubt, illuminating in understanding and appreciating an artist and are, above all, entertaining. And it's all provided to folks on a kind of "trade" basis, with no money changing hands. In the last two days, with news of these bootlegs making the rounds of discussion lists, both Les and I called simon and urged him to compile the next tape tree and to include some of Joni's performances from May '98. This way, no bootlegger (or amateur CD maker) will make oodles of money that will never get to JM. simon has kindly agreed and I'm certain he'll do his usual efficient job of compiling and distributing this tape tree. Enjoy! Later, Wally The Joni Mitchell Homepage http://www.JoniMitchell.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:35:54 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees Hmmm... Now I'm upset. I thought taping a Joni Mitchell concert was illegal and immoral. Isn't there a rule about bringing recording devices into the concert? If a hunter killed a Tiger illegally and offered to sell you the skin, you would refuse, right? But you would accept it if he gave it to you for free? If suddenly we discovered that the Martin D-28 stolen from Joni years ago had in fact been passed from one person to another all these years, so that many talented musicians had the opportunity to play it, does that mean the original theft was not a crime, or that each musician who "owned" the guitar didn't have the responsibility of returning it to Joni? How many of the stolen recordings in the JM tape trees are there with Joni's CONSENT? I can recommend a few books on the follies of situational ethics, if anyone is interested. "To live outside the law you must be honest." - Bob Dylan "To thine own self be true." - Shakespeare Brian - ---------- > From: Kenny Grant > To: joni@smoe.org; catman > Cc: simon@icu.com; les@jmdl.com > Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees > Date: Saturday, July 18, 1998 12:49 PM > > Hey Colin, > > Simon's post, and Les', they way I read them, merely stated that bootlegging as > a PRACTICE is unethical, in that money and profits are realized from the sale > and distrubution of an artists music without the artist receiving any > compensation from it -- a point that I whole-heartedly agree with. > > They both pointed out that there is a nice history/tradition of SHARING on the > JMDL. Many of Joni's concerts have been distributed on the list via Tape > Trees, I feel fortunate to have received so much great music -- from my > favorite artist -- that I will enjoy for a lifetime -- all for the price of > blanks and postage. (Those who aren't familiar with Tape Trees can read all > about them at http://www.jmdl.com/tape/ --- those who need help getting their > hands on previous tape trees, please e-mail me privately). > > Nobody needs the material available on this bootleg CD for the next Tape Tree, > that material long existed (lots of listers attended the May concerts and > forwarded seed material -- but it takes TIME to go thru the samples and master > the tree). > > The way I see it a couple of simple points were made: > > 1- bootlegging is WRONG in general > 2- VERY wrong when it involves our Joni > 3- there's no place for it (or need for it) on this list, cause we SHARE > around here, and in sharing (not selling) we don't compromise the artist. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:43:44 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Crime in N.O. (NJC) Kenny Grant knows: <<>> Having lived in two supposedly crime-ridden locales (Washington, DC and Chicago's Hyde Park), I'd like to see some numbers before becoming part of the "everyone" that "knows" crime is rampant N.O. It may well be, and I'm certainly not questioning the experiences of those who posted, but in my experience perceptions of extraordinarily high crime rates are direct outgrowths of racism and classism and have nothing to do with the reality of ebbing and flowing crime rates. In DC and Chicago there is a significant amount of crime, to be sure, and you must use your street-smarts when travelling either city, and there are a couple of neighborhoods where the statistical crime rate backs up the perceptions, but in most cases "knowledge" of crime amounts to nothing more than racist hysteria. The sad part is that this "knowledge" often becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy, as the perception of crime contributes to the conditions necessary for crime, as "good" (read: middle class, often white) people avoid certain neighborhoods and even cities because of their certainty that they will be a crime victim if they enter. This leads to economic depression *and* increased animosity against the better-off and their reductionist stereotypes that leads to actual crime. <<>> Crime is a result of both opportunity (like the N.O. police shortage) and need, both economic and psychological. <<>> Well, since the federal government is preparing to write a $2,000,000 check to gun distributors because they can't unload their AK-47s on third world countries anymore, there probably won't be any more money left to provide police. And there are always B-2 bombers to build... <<>> To the contrary, due to the repeal of the minimum corporate tax, many corporations, including many big household names, some of whom are responsible for reporting your news, pay ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in income taxes. They accountant and loophole their way out of any taxes whatsoever. Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it. <<>> Yeah. They could send some of those surveillance cameras that have mysteriously appeared on CUNY campuses (in meeting spaces of left- leaning campus groups) down there while they're at it. I'd like to see some numbers on the changes in N.O.'s crime rate since implementation of welfare "reform." - --Michael NP: Bob Marley & the Wailers _Natty Dread_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:11:25 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: Oprah Hello all- Here is my letter to Oprah. Have a great weekend, Michael Dear Oprah, I am a big fan of you and your show. I have enjoyed many of the interviews you have done over the years. I am the music director of Louisiana JukeBox (a twice cable ace award winning live music TV show. I am blessed to be able to make a living and be so involved in music from day to day. By now you are probably painfully aware that Joni Mitchell is doing a fundraiser in Chicago. I am sure you are being bombarded with e-mail on this topic. I am also a member of the JMDL and would love to see her on your show. Please make an attempt to have her on your show during this time. I would love to fly to Chicago and see the show live if you do so this is my official request for tickets as well. The internet is such an amazing thing. We have been united in Cyberspace by a true living legend, Mr. Wally Breese. Wally and his band of merry jonipals have made a safe place for us to share one of the most incredible singer songwriters of ALL time, exchange ideas, and make new friendships. Wally is a truly amazing person that is loved by some many people that have never even laid eyes on the man. There is an incredible story here that I think your audience would love. Please contact me if there is anything I can do regarding this suggestion. Also, please visit jonimitchell.com and see the wonderful tribute to this beautiful artist. Best wishes to you and your staff. Sincerely, Michael Paz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 22:30:46 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees Hey brian, It is also illegal to spit in NYC subways, but lots of people do it. Heroin, cocaine, marijuana and many other drugs are illegal, but hundreds of billions of dollars are spent each year, worldwide, thanks to their consumption. Concerts get taped...that's a fact of life. Joni's well aware of it, in an interview she mentioned that you always have to be a little careful of what you say in concert, because recordings of these things get made and will be around for posterity. So now that we know that this does happen (even though it *shouldn't*) the question of how to best distribute the material remains a valid one. Do you share the music with other devoted fans, via a not-for-profit tape tree process, or do you advocate the purchase of bootlegs, where someone profits from its distribution without remitting some of those profits to the artists who created the music (which is stealing). If we share her music without making money in the process, we are not stealing from her, only spreading the joy that her music provides. As to the morality of they guy who tapes a concert despite the sign that said "no recording," I say let's burn him at the same stake as the guy who lit the doobie during the show... As for the Tiger, how do you know that the hunter didn't kill him because he was about to attack him, which would be self-defense, and not illegal at all (I believe Joni says they can't be tammed, anyway :-) -Kenny On 7/18/98 4:35PM, Odlum, Brian wrote: Hmmm... Now I'm upset. I thought taping a Joni Mitchell concert was illegal and immoral. Isn't there a rule about bringing recording devices into the concert? If a hunter killed a Tiger illegally and offered to sell you the skin, you would refuse, right? But you would accept it if he gave it to you for free? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:29:42 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Richard Thompson (NJC) We had Richard Thompson perform solo at our Nightfall Series last night, and it was a first for me. I love his drama, and those melancholic lyrics in the form of almost happy-sounding musical ditties. He has a baritone/bass quality to his voice that makes it rather fullish and muddy(?) sounding and not that inspiring in the clarity department IMO... His guitar-playing was also very full and rich. He picks well, too. I won't be running out and buying his stuff, for I am not of the pure-folkie-lovin'-among-us, but I did very much enjoy hearing him play real good for free. "I thought you said, 'good luck', But you said, 'goodbye'..." Marsha, with "If you don't want me I'll dry my tears and move on" by Richard Thompson as my new mantra ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 22:51:57 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: RE: Crime in N.O. (NJC) Hey Michael, I would, but my crack pipe was stolen from me in New Orleans :-) Actually I wasn't aware that major corporations are managing to pay so little in income taxes these days...that's pretty frightening. -Kenny I wrote: <<>> Michael Yarbrough replied: To the contrary, due to the repeal of the minimum corporate tax, many corporations, including many big household names, some of whom are responsible for reporting your news, pay ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in income taxes. They accountant and loophole their way out of any taxes whatsoever. Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it. --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:00:05 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Richard Thompson (NJC) I didn't know Richard Thompson sang- the last i saw of him he was John Boy in The Waltons. colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:07:02 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: (tangential JC) taping concerts Perhaps someone knows better than I, but is taping of concerts actually illegal? I thought it was up to the discretion of the venue (hi Marsha!) and the artist. And, once that question is answered, why did it become common to disallow taping? I wouldn't be surprised if it was a direct reaction to bootleggers specifically, as opposed to tape traders. On the legal question, I'm asking about the States specifically, though I'd be interested to know what the laws were elsewhere as well. - --Michael NP: David Bowie, _Hunky Dory_ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:12:34 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees (SJC) Brian Odlum writes: <> He later says: <> This post struck me as so much grandstanding, and frankly I found it insulting to Les, Wally, and Simon, all of whom have clearly dedicated large amounts of their time in support of Joni. I suspect Brian and I have differing concepts of morality, which is fine. Personally I believe that the morality of consuming a hamburger at a concert (perfectly legal) is far more questionable than recording that concert. If Brian's books on "situational ethics" posit some direct link between what is legal and what is moral, then I would certainly enjoy reading the folly of that argument. There are cleary substantive differences between killing an endangered species, stealing a guitar, and taping a concert. Perhaps if the tape trees were seeded with master recordings stolen from Joni's archives the comparison would be more apt. As it stands, it's inflammatory, IMO. There are many issues about bootlegging and tape trees which I do not understand, so I can't address the intricasies of the argument. But I do believe that if people whom we respect and have come to trust take a position which seems out of sync to us, it is incumbent upon us to educate ourselves (perhaps through an exchange of private posts) before castigating them publically. Brian, perhaps you should fully familarize yourself with the details of tape sharing and bootlegging before offering others primers about upholding moral and ethical standards. That would seem to me to be a more thoughtful approach. If this post reads as polemical, forgive me. It may be that my challenge to Brian is a knee-jerk response, my having interpreted his post as a veiled (though not necessarily intentional) insult to Simon, Wally, and Les. Peace, David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:43:44 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees Hi Kenny, You wrote: > So now that we know that this does happen (even though it *shouldn't*) the > question of how to best distribute the material remains a valid one. Well, I suppose so. But the issue I was addressing had more to do with the crime than the distribution of its fruits. I'm not saying that the JMDL's concept of tape trees is as terrible as bootlegging. I'm trying to point out that the music is still stolen (from Joni). We cannot prevent the crime from being committed, but that doesn't mean we are blameless if we partake of the spoils. Joni's CONSENT is the key issue here. Has anybody ever asked her if it's OK to put these stolen recordings on the tape trees? I doubt it. And if somebody did ask her, and her (unlikely) response was "No way, I think tape trees are as unethical as bootlegging", how would you feel about it then? Still think sharing through tape trees is OK? Still have respect for the artist whom we adore in this group? [soapbox on] It's so easy to evade responsibility in today's crazy world, to think of ourselves as blameless and guiltless, or worse, as correcting a wrong, and turning a blind eye to the fact that we are getting what we want in the process, at someone else's expense. The fact that a greater evil exists (bootlegging) and that we did not commit the original crime makes it easy to excuse ourselves. Joni is still the victim, even if tape trees make her less victimized than the alternative. [soapbox off] I judge no-one but myself. For the record, I think I'm nodding my tacit approval to the thieves when I'm so willing to "share" in the booty. Until Joni gives her blessing to the tape trees, they are off limits to me. You should come to your own conclusions, even if they differ from mine. Thanks for the discussion though, it's especially appropriate IMO for the JMDL. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:48:18 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Re: (tangential JC) taping concerts Hi Michael, > Perhaps someone knows better than I, but is taping of concerts actually > illegal? I thought it was up to the discretion of the venue (hi Marsha!) > and the artist. You are correct. The Grateful Dead were famous for their open policy regarding taping of their concerts. Regards, Brian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:28:58 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Re: Bootlegs vs Trees (SJC) > Brian Odlum writes: > > < illegal and immoral.>> > > He later says: < situational ethics, if anyone's interested.>> > > This post struck me as so much grandstanding, and frankly I found it > insulting to Les, Wally, and Simon, all of whom have clearly dedicated > large amounts of their time in support of Joni. I suspect Brian and I > have differing concepts of morality, which is fine. Personally I > believe that the morality of consuming a hamburger at a concert > (perfectly legal) is far more questionable than recording that concert. Yikes! Everybody takes everything so personally! My post wasn't directed at *anyone*, it was meant to stimulate a discussion. (JM*D*L;-) My apologies to Les, Wally, Simon, you and anyone else out there who might have felt offended by a different point of view. > If Brian's books on "situational ethics" posit some direct link between > what is legal and what is moral, then I would certainly enjoy reading > the folly of that argument. IMO my post is concerned with the ethical/moral issues, not with the legality of anything. After all, the legal crime has already been committed by the time the recording is a candidate for the tape trees, and as far as I'm aware, there is nothing illegal about the tape trees themselves. > There are cleary substantive differences between killing an endangered > species, stealing a guitar, and taping a concert. Actually, this statement lies at the heart of the discussion. Depending on how one views the issues, these things may be very different or quite similar. A complex discussion of morals and ethics could actually start here, books could be written, classes attended, homework assigned, etc. I doubt anyone wants to go there. However, "clearly" is usually a word used by folks who are confident their point of view is correct. > Perhaps if the tape > trees were seeded with master recordings stolen from Joni's archives the > comparison would be more apt. As it stands, it's inflammatory, IMO. > > There are many issues about bootlegging and tape trees which I do not > understand, so I can't address the intricasies of the argument. But I > do believe that if people whom we respect and have come to trust take a > position which seems out of sync to us, it is incumbent upon us to > educate ourselves (perhaps through an exchange of private posts) before > castigating them publically. As said above, I didn't intend to castigate anyone! I didn't even start this thread, Colin did! ;-) (A not so veiled attempt to evade responsibility!) Really, I don't hold anyone in contempt here. What gives with the howitzers? > Brian, perhaps you should fully familarize > yourself with the details of tape sharing and bootlegging before > offering others primers about upholding moral and ethical standards. > That would seem to me to be a more thoughtful approach. As a musician with 35 years of experience in the world of music from LA to Seattle, can you be sure that I'm so terribly ignorant of the details of tape sharing and bootlegging? Perhaps I am, but I suspect ignorance is relative. Also, IMO my post had far more to do with a broad ethical question than the specifics of bootlegging. I can understand why you might think otherwise however, having stated above that "There are cleary substantive differences between killing an endangered species, stealing a guitar, and taping a concert." If one cannot appreciate the similarities in those situations, then my post probably *does* appear like a shallow understanding of tape sharing and bootlegging, and perhaps like a personal attack on someone as well. However, that was not the spirit in which it was written. > If this post reads as polemical, forgive me. It may be that my > challenge to Brian is a knee-jerk response, my having interpreted his > post as a veiled (though not necessarily intentional) insult to Simon, > Wally, and Les. Well, you're wrong about that, but that's OK, I enjoyed reading it anyway. I don't mind people getting pissed off, even at me, at least your not apathetic. Keep posting! Brian ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #263 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?