From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #261 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, July 17 1998 Volume 03 : Number 261 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Getting caught up (JMDL content) [Bolvangar@aol.com] Nomination for JMDL Hall of Fame [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Barangrill [davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine)] Re: Barangrill ["Deb Messling" ] Re: "tourniquet" pronunciation--NJC [BH1248@aol.com] NJC-- Chrissie content [MP123A321@aol.com] Re: Washington Post interview (LJC) [Bill Dollinger ] Re: NJC-- Chrissie content ["Don Rowe" ] Re: NJC-- Chrissie content [Bill Dollinger ] Re: NJC-- Chrissie content [Linda Brady ] Re: NJC-- Chrissie content [Susan McNamara ] Winfrey 7-17 [Sue ] Re: Winfrey 7-17 [Michael Heath ] Re: Digital Guitar discussion list (NJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: NJC-- Chrissie content [Bolvangar@aol.com] Interesting item on eBay web site item#20751994: Joni Mitchell - Chalk Mark Promo Box [k] Re: NJC-- Chrissie content [margaret prisco ] Re: NJC-- Chrissie content ["Don Rowe" ] Re: NJC-- Chrissie content [Bill Dollinger ] Today in Joni History - July 18 [Today in Joni History ] Today in Joni History - July 20 [Today in Joni History ] Re: NJC-- Chrissie content [Linda Brady ] Barangrill/Wroking Class [Diana Duncan ] Oprah [Bounced Message ] vegetarianism NJC [sherrie.good@chronicle.com] Re: Barangrill/Wroking Class ["Don Rowe" ] Motyl Makes Media Headlines NJC ["Julie Z. Webb" ] GUITAR UPDATE!! [Susan McNamara ] Re: GUITAR UPDATE!! [Susan McNamara ] MOSTLY MELANCHOLIA - Joni Live CD [ChuckReese@aol.com] Re: NJC-- Chrissie content [Bolvangar@aol.com] Re: Barangrill/Wroking Class [catman ] Re: vegetarianism NJC [catman ] Lori [catman ] Re: Barangrill/Working Class [Bolvangar@aol.com] Today in Joni History - July 20 (amended - and a bit long) [RickieLee1@a] Crime in N.O. (NJC) [michael paz ] Re: vegetarianism NJC [RickieLee1@aol.com] Fred Walzenfree (NJC) ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Lori (NJC) [Mark Domyancich ] Re: vegetarianism NJC [Mark Domyancich ] TTT "update"/Joni pic on www.dayintheGarden.com [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 04:35:50 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Getting caught up (JMDL content) Hi all, Having now read (or skimmed) the past 15 or 20 digests in two days, it strikes me how telescoping two weeks of the laughter and drama and politics and personal stories of the JMDL into such a short space/time can be a bit emotionally exhausting in a way, like living life very fast -- I guess that's a tribute to the depth of this cybercommunity and the connection I've felt with this group, or else a tribute to my needing to get out more. To hit some high points: I was so glad to see that all-too-rare treasure, a post from Deb Thornton; just when I thought that no one could top Suze's post about the Jonifest bracelets, I read her one about the nametags; I prayed for certain threads to end before I fainted from boredom (though never questioning the place of those threads on the list); I gasped, and sometimes cracked up at the same time, reading remarks aimed by listmembers at other listmembers; I got jerked around by the news of Joni's Chicago show -- first the excitement of her appearing in a seemingly perfect venue at last, and then the crushing blow, the price tag (my GOD!). I'm glad to be going back to single posts now. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:03:33 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Nomination for JMDL Hall of Fame On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:41:42 -0700, briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) wrote on the Subject: Re: Barangrill << Everyone who lives confronts the soul transfigured << By two great dynamics of human life - Love and Loss. << These two elemental chemicals of change invade the << soul directly through the heart. << Love injects the drug of pleasure << Mining rich caverns of meaning and self-assurance. << We become bound to life, our wealth increases. << Like delicious food, we consume it with desire - we << transform through pleasure. << Loss injects the poison of pain, exhausting those << caverns of their ore Leaving only hollow reverberations << of self-doubt. Connections are loosened, our riches vanish. << Like chemotherapy, we accept it with fear, hoping to << survive - we transform through pain. << We crave the former and shun the latter, but of the two, << Loss is the greater power. << In the end everything we love is lost. << Death strips us of all we hold close. << Art, innocence, beauty, << Friends, family, lovers, << Dreams not started, or finished. << It is not the presence of one or the other which distinguishes << a rich life from a poor one. It is merely a matter of balance << and the order of appearance. Wow! Marian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 03:00:48 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: Re: Barangrill I'll take a stab at this one. In the first stanza, Joni thinks that perhaps the waitress possesses a kind of enlightennment and peace of mind, as evidenced by her unworrying, direct manner. Joni's analyzing herself, and she's willfuly holding herself up to the "mirror" of the waitresses' presumed approach to life. But it's just a trick, in reality the waitress has no insight to impart. Her mind's on her boyfriend and eggs over easy (i.e., not truly in the moment). So Joni keeps on looking around, observing the truck driver, the gas station attendent. I guess I'm prone to this interpretation of "Her mirrors" because Joni uses the same word in the description of her meeting with Trungpa: "He saw my complications/And he mirrored me back simplified." Anyway, that's the best I can come up with at the moment. Peace, David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:47:33 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Barangrill > But she meets people along the way who seem so "light and easy", simple people > with simple lives, no hard choices, no complications, no troubles, talking > shop, talking banalities: I've always heard what Kenny's hearing in that song, and it sets my teeth on edge. How could Joni possibly believe,even for one second, that working class people have simple lives with no hard choices? Fred Walzenfree ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:46:54 EDT From: BH1248@aol.com Subject: Re: "tourniquet" pronunciation--NJC Partick wrote: << the pronunciation, i'm guessing, comes from tourniquette, which would have a pronounced t. >> Patrick is correct according to my dictionary (a non-cyber, non-hearsay device) which I employed to find two pronunciations: tur ne kit (with a "u" as in "urge" and the "e" is a schwa) toor ne kit (with a "oo" as in "book" and the "e" is a schwa) Source: Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary, 1989 Bob NP: Simon & Garfunkel box set--disk 2 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:58:58 EDT From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: NJC-- Chrissie content Anyone that likes The Pretenders should check out Hard Rock Live on VH-1 if they repeat it. What a great performance including dripping mascara and her voice still rocking . Hope they get to FL with B-52's. This is well worth being late to work. Next post: Chrissie's advice for "chick rockers". Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:28:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Washington Post interview (LJC) I would expect it to be. I will post the url, and send a copy of the article to anyone interested. bill On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/16/98 5:23:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > bdolling@CapAccess.org writes: > > << Look for it in the Business section in Mondays > post. >> > > Bill, > > Hey, great news! Will the article be online, you think? > > Terry > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:50:30 -0400 (EDT) From: margaret prisco Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content I really like Chrissie Hynde's music but any time I've heard an interview with her she seems like a real fruit cake (ooops, i'm sure I've offended somebody here - Chrissie lovers or fruit cake lovers!!!). Anyway, I've decided that she's someone that I don't really want to hear talk but love to hear rock! I missed the VH1 thing. We only watch Nickelodeon and cartoon network in my house... Margot On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 MP123A321@aol.com wrote: > Anyone that likes The Pretenders should check out Hard Rock Live on VH-1 > if they repeat it. What a great performance including dripping mascara and her > voice still rocking . Hope they get to FL with B-52's. This is well worth > being late to work. > > Next post: Chrissie's advice for "chick rockers". > > Maurice > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:46:14 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content Margot writes -- I really like Chrissie Hynde's music but I've decided that she's someone that I don't really want to hear talk but love to hear rock! I think that fame and the pressure to do interviews has a lot to do with this. A lot of my favorite artists come across really poorly in the press as a result. So not to slam Chrissie or anyone, but I agree with Frank Zappa who said sometimes it's best just to "shut up and play your guitar!" :-) Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:44:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content I have to respectfully disagree, although I am not offended. I have met Chrissie and found her to be an articulate and well-informed. She has a great passion for her beliefs and a wonderful sense of humor. Sometimes, especially in the hands of a hostile or inept interviewer, those qualities might lead a listener to adopt such a "fruitcake" point of view. Personally, I find it refreshing to hear or read something that middle america might find hard to digest (sorry fruitcake lovers). For instance, I would rather hear Joni talking about how her medicine man informed her that she smokes because she vibrates at such a high rate that it keeps her grounded and keeps her from becoming invisible, than to hear the same old regurgated pablum that is a staple of so much "entertainment news." Bill On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, margaret prisco wrote: > I really like Chrissie Hynde's music but any time I've heard an interview > with her she seems like a real fruit cake (ooops, i'm sure I've offended > somebody here - Chrissie lovers or fruit cake lovers!!!). Anyway, I've > decided that she's someone that I don't really want to hear talk but love > to hear rock! I missed the VH1 thing. We only watch Nickelodeon and > cartoon network in my house... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:02:49 +0100 From: Linda Brady Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content I am a *huge* lifelong fanatic of Chrissie's music. For years and years I have admired and thought of her as an amazing talent. She does, however, come off like a creep in interviews. Especially when she gets on about vegetarianism. I mean, Linda McCartney never said the kind of things Chrissie says, the kind of militant-you-all-are-Satan-stuff. Like once I was watching some VH-1 interview with Chrissie, and she just looks at the camera and says (paraphrase): "Look. If you wanna live your life eating animals, then FUCK YOU." And she starts shaking her head, disgusted, at the camera. To that I say: No. Fuck YOU! I once read a comment by Tori Amos that said (paraphrase): "I love Chrissie Hynde, but if she ever starts giving me that militant vegetarianism, I'll eat my own arm." Chrissie just comes off extremely irrational about her beliefs; e.g. she wore leather pants for like, 10 years. Hmmm, where does leather come from? That said, she is probably (besides Joni) my all-time favorite singer. It's the Sinatra factor: he was fantastic, but would you want to have met him? Linda - ---------- > From: Bill Dollinger > To: margaret prisco > Cc: MP123A321@aol.com; joni@smoe.org > Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content > Date: 17 July 1998 15:44 > > I have to respectfully disagree, although I am > not offended. I have met Chrissie and found her > to be an articulate and well-informed. She has > a great passion for her beliefs and a wonderful > sense of humor. Sometimes, especially in the > hands of a hostile or inept interviewer, those > qualities might lead a listener to adopt such > a "fruitcake" point of view. Personally, I find > it refreshing to hear or read something that > middle america might find hard to digest (sorry > fruitcake lovers). For instance, I would rather > hear Joni talking about how her medicine man informed > her that she smokes because she vibrates at > such a high rate that it keeps her grounded and > keeps her from becoming invisible, than to hear > the same old regurgated pablum that is a staple > of so much "entertainment news." > > Bill > > > On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, margaret prisco wrote: > > > I really like Chrissie Hynde's music but any time I've heard an interview > > with her she seems like a real fruit cake (ooops, i'm sure I've offended > > somebody here - Chrissie lovers or fruit cake lovers!!!). Anyway, I've > > decided that she's someone that I don't really want to hear talk but love > > to hear rock! I missed the VH1 thing. We only watch Nickelodeon and > > cartoon network in my house... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:10:13 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content I saw this concert last Friday and Chrissie ROCKED!! She played a bunch of my favorite songs but the one I love the most is KID. Chrissie is great because she writes the songs Mick Jagger would not write. I almost cry when she sings that line about your kid looking at you when they've realized for the first time that you are not perfect. WAAHH!! KID MY ONLY KID YOU LOOK SO SMALL YOU'VE GONE SO QUIET I KNOW YOU KNOW WHAT I'M ABOUT I WON'T DENY IT BUT YOU FORGIVE THOUGH YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND YOU'VE TURNED YOUR HEAD YOU'VE DROPPED MY HAND My kid gets this look on her face whenever I mention Joni!! :-) ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:21:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Subject: Winfrey 7-17 Just wanted to say that you folks are fantastic! We have more than doubled our numbers from yesterday. I would suggest that in your mailing that you not mention our community, as it may look like the concerted effort it is. I know that is being a bit deceitful, but somehow I feel that if our mailing looks more like just random people requesting SIQUOMB it will have more of an impact. Any feedback from the group on this? I am not one to ram my ideas down someone's throat (unless of course that someone is one of my students) so whatever the community feels is best is fine with me. Look at the list below. If your name isn't on it, then what are you waiting for? www.oprah.com. P.S. No fair looking at the list and saying, "Hey I'm on there because it says 'ME'"! Me Kenny Chilihead Don Rowe Phyliss - no response Pearl Terry - six responses! Lesley Watson in Cape Town Doug Kate Mendi Bev - two responses! Jody Peggy Marian Anne Madden - bunch of responses Sue Cameron (Suze) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:29:54 -0700 From: Michael Heath Subject: Re: Winfrey 7-17 you add one more, i sent a request yesterday. cul Sue wrote: > Just wanted to say that you folks are fantastic! We have more than doubled > our numbers from yesterday. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:31:27 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Digital Guitar discussion list (NJC) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:36:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger How do you su.bscr.ibe? I sent a message to the email you listed and it came back as an invalid address. I would love to check out this group. Bill > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:20:04 -0500 > From: Michael Paz > > The address to subscribe to the DGDP. This message boun_ced on it's way to Joniland - usually a result of the address from which it came not matching *exactly* any subscriber's address. If this message is from you, contact me so we can resolve the problem. -Les. - -------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:59:10 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content Maurice wrote: <> Hee hee, beat you to it! (Hope you don't mind -- I just love Chrissie.) 1. Don't moan about being a chick, refer to feminism or complain about sexist discrimination. We've all been thrown down stairs and fucked about, but no one wants to hear a whining female. Write a loosely disguised song about instead and clean up ($$). 2. Never pretend you know more than you do. If you don't know chord names, refer to the dots. Don't go near the desk unless you plan on becoming an engineer. 3. Make the other band members look and sound good. Bring outthe best in them; that's your job. Oh, and you better sound good too. 4. Do not insist on working with "females"; that's just more B.S. Get the best man for the job. If it happens to be a woman, great -- you'll have someone to go to department stores on tour with instead of making one of the road crew go with you. 5. Try not to have a sexual relationship with the band. It always ends in tears. 6. Don't think that sticking your boobs out and trying to look fuckable will help. Remember you're in a rock and roll band. It's not "fuck me," it's "fuck you!" 7. Don't try to compete with the guys; it won't impress anybody. Remember, one of the reasons they like you is because you don't offer yet more competition to the already existing male egos. 8. If you sing, don't "belt" or "screech." No one wants to hear that shit; it sounds "hysterical." 9. Shave your legs, for chrissakes! 10. Don't take advice from people like me. Do your own thing always. (Source: _The New Book of Rock Lists_, originally from a May 1994 Sire Records press release) - --David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:05:22 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net Subject: Interesting item on eBay web site item#20751994: Joni Mitchell - Chalk Mark Promo Box NP: Tape of the Day: 7/17/66 Grateful Dead: Fillmore Auditorium, SF, CA. I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. Title of item: Joni Mitchell - Chalk Mark Promo Box Seller: billy.harrow@btinternet.com Starts: 07/10/98 10:42:19 PDT Ends: 07/17/98 10:42:19 PDT Price: Currently $56.00 To bid the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=20751994 Item Description: Joni Mitchell - "Chalk Mark In A Rain Storm" promo box press kit. The press kit comprises of a special box featuring the cover shot of "Chalk Mark" and includes a b+w promo photo of Joni, a history and track by track info sheet, a full cassette of the album and a special 3" promo CD of "Snakes and Ladders". A unique item to add to your Joni Mitchell colection. Buyer pays all shipping costs. Good Luck! Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:12:01 -0400 (EDT) From: margaret prisco Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content Well, sheesh you had to go and post this! This is one of the quotes that really bugs me. First off I think she does a disservice to us feminists who don't whine but also don't like going to department stores (I like toy and music stores!) and don't shave our legs. If you're not saying "fuck me" (see number 6) and not sticking your boobs out, what are you doing with your legs that they need to be shaved?? And what's this don't compete with the guys shit? Who are you supposed to compete with (if you don't have women in your band)? I enjoy a little friendly competition. And why should the rule against moaning and complaining apply only to sexism? Is it OK to whine about other things? (Like animal rights??) I think not... I've played in a few bands and done a few Joni type gigs too (much harder than standing in front of a band!!) and I think *some* of her advice is good. I agree that the sex of the band members should be irrelavent and some other the other stuff but I find the above stuff so annoying that I can't overlook it. Am I whining?? I think I'll put on my leather coat and have a big fat steak for dinner... Margot On Fri, 17 Jul 1998 Bolvangar@aol.com wrote: > Maurice wrote: > <> > > Hee hee, beat you to it! (Hope you don't mind -- I just love Chrissie.) > > 1. Don't moan about being a chick, refer to feminism or complain about sexist > discrimination. We've all been thrown down stairs and fucked about, but no one > wants to hear a whining female. Write a loosely disguised song about instead > and clean up ($$). > > 2. Never pretend you know more than you do. If you don't know chord names, > refer to the dots. Don't go near the desk unless you plan on becoming an > engineer. > > 3. Make the other band members look and sound good. Bring outthe best in them; > that's your job. Oh, and you better sound good too. > > 4. Do not insist on working with "females"; that's just more B.S. Get the best > man for the job. If it happens to be a woman, great -- you'll have someone to > go to department stores on tour with instead of making one of the road crew go > with you. > > 5. Try not to have a sexual relationship with the band. It always ends in > tears. > > 6. Don't think that sticking your boobs out and trying to look fuckable will > help. Remember you're in a rock and roll band. It's not "fuck me," it's "fuck > you!" > > 7. Don't try to compete with the guys; it won't impress anybody. Remember, one > of the reasons they like you is because you don't offer yet more competition > to the already existing male egos. > > 8. If you sing, don't "belt" or "screech." No one wants to hear that shit; it > sounds "hysterical." > > 9. Shave your legs, for chrissakes! > > 10. Don't take advice from people like me. Do your own thing always. > > (Source: _The New Book of Rock Lists_, originally from a May 1994 Sire Records > press release) > > --David > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:29:02 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content You know, if we're not careful, the whole definition and use of *NJC* is going to get blurry -- does it mean "Not Just Chrissie?", "Now Jump Chrissie?" (oh well, take that however you like), "No Joni is Chrissie?", "Never Judge Chrissie?", "Next Juvenile Comment?" (my own included) Who knows where it will end!? Don Rowe ;-) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:34:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content Linda McCartney had often commented that she and Paul would not entertain meat eaters in their home. Chrissie takes a strong stand against meat eating, which is the most horrific and prevalent form of abuse toward any creatures, human or non-human, on our planet. She takes this stand from an informed perspective - - she has the courage to view videotapes and read about the factory farm and slaughterhouse realities that most militant carnivores shun away from to spare themselves the discomfort. Meat eating is indefensible on moral grounds. No tolerance is expected to be granted to those who perpetuate other forms of abuse. Could you imagine anyone taking issue with the statement "Look. If you wanna live your life kidnapping and raping 10 year old girls, the FUCK YOU." ? I would challenge any meat eater to at least gain an informed point of view by reading the book Slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz. Bill (who would eat Tori Amos' arm for a chance to meet Old Blue Eyes) >She does, however, come off like a creep in interviews. >Especially when she gets on about vegetarianism. I mean, Linda McCartney never said the >kind of things Chrissie says, the kind of militant-you-all-are-Satan-stuff. >Like once I was watching some VH-1 interview with Chrissie, and she just >looks at the camera and says (paraphrase): "Look. If you wanna live your >life eating animals, then FUCK YOU." And she starts shaking her head, >disgusted, at the camera. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:02:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - July 18 1983: Joni performs at Finger Lakes, New York - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:04:00 -0600 From: Today in Joni History Subject: Today in Joni History - July 20 1983: Joni performs in Boston. (from Wally's bio): When Refuge did [this show], Joni got some bad press for walking offstage five times during the show. Whether her frustration resulted from malfunctioning equipment, or from the audience being too noisy, in reality it was a combination of the show being a rare one for Joni in the daytime, the crowd's natural rowdiness adding distraction, and the disappointing fact that this concert was at the end of a long, grueling tour played in venues that were mostly only about 2/3 full. - -------- Know a date or month specific Joni tidbit? Send it off to JoniFact@jmdl.com and we'll add it to the list. - -------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:59:27 +0100 From: Linda Brady Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content No one's arguing the point of meat eating vs. not meat eating. What I am asking is: how many people are you going to convert to your cause by telling them "Fuck you"? Is this the smartest way to get your point across? It doesn't come off like an "informed" or "intelligent" comment; if Chrissie is informed, as I'm sure she is, she needs to *sound like it* for anybody to give a shit. Linda - ---------- > From: Bill Dollinger > To: Linda Brady > Cc: joni > Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content > Date: 17 July 1998 19:34 > > > Linda McCartney had often commented that she and Paul would not > entertain meat eaters in their home. Chrissie takes a strong > stand against meat eating, which is the most horrific and > prevalent form of abuse toward any creatures, human or non-human, > on our planet. She takes this stand from an informed perspective > - she has the courage to view videotapes and read about the factory farm and > slaughterhouse realities that most militant carnivores shun > away from to spare themselves the discomfort. Meat eating > is indefensible on moral grounds. > > No tolerance is expected to be granted to those > who perpetuate other forms of abuse. > Could you imagine anyone taking issue with the statement > "Look. If you wanna live your life kidnapping and raping > 10 year old girls, the FUCK YOU." ? > > I would challenge any meat eater to at least gain an informed > point of view by reading the book Slaughterhouse by Gail Eisnitz. > > Bill > (who would eat Tori Amos' arm for a chance to meet Old Blue Eyes) > > >She does, however, come off like a creep in interviews. > >Especially when she gets on about vegetarianism. I mean, Linda > McCartney never said the > >kind of things Chrissie says, the kind of militant-you-all-are-Satan-stuff. > >Like once I was watching some VH-1 interview with Chrissie, and she just > >looks at the camera and says (paraphrase): "Look. If you wanna live your > >life eating animals, then FUCK YOU." And she starts shaking her head, > >disgusted, at the camera. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:14:15 -0500 From: Diana Duncan Subject: Barangrill/Wroking Class As Marian said "WOW"! Isn't it amazing how those 2 lines Sue McNamara wondered about can inspire such beautiful, wonderful thoughts. This is why this list is so great And why J.M. is the greatest artist in the world! Kenny Grant wrote: >> But she meets people along the way who seem so "light and easy", simple people >> with simple lives, no hard choices, no complications, no troubles, talking >> shop, talking banalities: At 07:47 AM 7/17/1998 +0000, Deb Messling wrote:> I've always heard what Kenny's hearing in that song, and it sets my >teeth on edge. How could Joni possibly believe,even for one >second, that working class people have simple lives with no hard >choices? >Fred Walzenfree But isn't that what "back to the Garden" means. In the late 60's we thought that simple lives were better. That was why all the rural communes sprang up. Of course the working class people have a rough life. But Joni has been in the elite class for so many years. And she always seems a little detached from the day to day trials of economic survival. Artists are like that. Especially successful artists. They think so deep on everything that they can't accept the simple way. I think at this time in her life she was overwhelmed by her talents obligations. So she could be envious of someone not in the public eye of scrutininy. Diana, who should be writing 2 papers that are due monday! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:15:37 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Oprah Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:51:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Medric Faulkner Sue, Ad.d me to your list. I have e-mailed Oprah. Medric Faulkner ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:18:55 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: vegetarianism NJC today marks my 27th year on the planet as a vegetarian. while i am not militant about it, i certainly understand the passion behind the people who are. oppression of people is directly linked to our oppression of all animals, no matter if we decide to kill them to eat them or chop of their hands for ashtrays, or hang their chopped off heads on our walls. Chrissie Hynde rocks in every way. sherrie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:18:48 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Barangrill/Wroking Class Diana writes -- >I think at this time in her life she was overwhelmed by her talents >obligations. So she could be envious of someone not in the public eye >of scrutininy. I'll buy that, your comments reminded me of "Free Man in Paris" where Joni quite plainly yearns back to a less complex time, when she could do more or less as she pleased, feeling "unfettered and alive" as a kind of simplicity, instead of having to tend to her then new-found fame and its attendant obligations. Good luck on those papers! Don Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:02:20 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Motyl Makes Media Headlines NJC I think the jmdl scored a double wammy in today's media. First there is Dollinger and "The Washington Post" and now as I open the Pittsburgh paper I see that jmdler, documentary maker, Howard Motyl, has made the top story of the front page with headlines that read: "PITTSBURGH NATIVE UNDER FIRE FOR JFK VIDEO" And there is a colored photograph of handsome Howard who is now from Chicago. \ Have a great weekend everybody and a VERY HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO SHERRIE GOOD!!!!! jULIE Z WEBB, don juan's fertile daughter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:00:49 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: GUITAR UPDATE!! For all you patient guitar heads who thought I died months ago, I am relieved to say that I have finally found the time to do some minor updates to the guitar page. I have added a new section called Rarities, and included my tab of "Go Tell The Drummer Man" which can be heard on Tape Tree 3 (i think) from Joni's 1967 performance at the Second Fret in phillie. Also with the help of Marian Russell, Mark Domyancich, and Howard Wright we have completed tabs for two albums: Song to a Seagull and Hejira. Additions on those are The Pirate of Penance, two versions of A Strange Boy, and Blue Motel Room. Thanks to my good guitar friends for their hard work and also thanks to everyone out there who has been so patient with me. Take care, Sue +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Susan McNamara Assistant to the Dean of Students Cornell University 401 Willard Straight Hall Ithaca, NY 14853 Voice: (607) 255-1115 FAX: (607) 255-8082 E-Mail:sem8@cornell.edu +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:06:03 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: GUITAR UPDATE!! Whoa, I had my official sig on that last email. Here is the website address for those who want to check out the guitar site: http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/ Have a great weekend. Sue ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:09:05 EDT From: ChuckReese@aol.com Subject: MOSTLY MELANCHOLIA - Joni Live CD I just got a new live CD album of Joni Mitchell's complete performance at Pauley Pavilion in Los Angeles on May 22, 1998. I attended five of Joni's West Coast concerts and this one was certainly my favorite. What a souvenir. This very nice album is appropriately titled "MOSTLY MELANCHOLIA" and has a stunning cover derived from the hanging panels stage backdrop from her performance. According to Wally the panels show a painting that Joni did of herself sitting on the cliff by her home north of Vancouver. I was able to get some extra copies of this album, so if anyone is interested in picking up one of these, please contact me privately via email for more details. Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:14:41 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: NJC-- Chrissie content Chrissie Hynde said: > 1. Don't moan about being a chick, refer to feminism or complain about sexist > discrimination. We've all been thrown down stairs and fucked about, but no one > wants to hear a whining female. Write a loosely disguised song about instead > and clean up ($$). Margaux said: > First off I think she does a disservice to us feminists who don't whine [snip] > ....why should the rule against moaning and complaining apply only to sexism? > Is it OK to whine about other things? I think what Chrissie is really targeting in Rule #1 is the hypocrisy of patriarchal recording industry types -- "no one wants to hear a whining female" (or an empowered female?), true, but male execs will still look for the opportunity to turn a profit commodifying female discontent. I think a good living example of this is Ani DiFranco. > If you're not saying "fuck me" (see number 6) and not sticking your boobs > out, what are you doing with your legs that they need to be shaved?? Again, I think this is partly a commentary on the hypocrisy of guys who like women with an attitude ("riot grrrls"), but only up to a certain point -- guys who just love women to talk the talk, as long as they don't walk the walk (e.g., by not shaving their legs). (This is maybe how some people interpret the success the Spice Girls.) > And what's this don't compete with the guys shit? Who are you supposed to > compete with (if you don't have women in your band)? I enjoy a little > friendly competition. And again, I thought that rule was meant to poke fun at guys ("already existing male egos"), and their patronizing attitude to women in rock music (for example, Joni's being called "the best female songwriter on the planet" - -- a very backhanded compliment meant to put her out of competition with the guys, or should I say put the guys out of competition with her). I feel that Chrissie, and Joni, are people who walk the walk when it comes to being empowered. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:29:06 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Barangrill/Wroking Class "So, too, in recent years, there has been an increasing interest in choosing food to promote health and not merely to sustain life or indulge a fancy. This interest reflects a distrust and a turning away from the vast, complex food industry which is part of the even vaster industries which dominate our world. If we eat food that we know and trust, we shall be safe. Underneath this may be the hope that if we could get back to a simpler life and live close to nature, then we shall be safer. The problem is that when people do, or did, live close to nature, life is both dangerous and short." Dr D. Rowe I just happened to be reading that when I read the mail on Back To The Garden. colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:29:21 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: vegetarianism NJC You are right-people who abuse animals often abuse children too - anything they can excercise power over. colin sherrie.good@chronicle.com wrote: > today marks my 27th year on the planet as a vegetarian. while i am not > militant about it, i certainly understand the passion behind the people who > are. oppression of people is directly linked to our oppression of all > animals, no matter if we decide to kill them to eat them or chop of their > hands for ashtrays, or hang their chopped off heads on our walls. > > Chrissie Hynde rocks in every way. > > sherrie - -- but who is it who is so eager to see that society’s norms are observed, who persecutes and crucifies those with the temerity to think differently - -if not the ones who have had a ‘proper upbringing’? They are the ones who learned as children to accept the death of their souls and not to notice it until they are confronted with the vitality of their young or adolescent children. Then they must try to stamp out this vitality, so they will not be reminded of thier own loss. Alice Miller. http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:34:32 +0100 From: catman Subject: Lori I believe our Lori hits a milestone tomorrow. HAPPY BIRTHDAY, LORI! colin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:11:13 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: Barangrill/Working Class Fred Walzenfree wrote: > I've always heard what Kenny's hearing in that song, and it sets my > teeth on edge. How could Joni possibly believe, even for one > second, that working class people have simple lives with no hard > choices? Diana Duncan wrote: > But isn't that what "back to the Garden" means. In the late 60's we thought > that simple lives were better. That was why all the rural communes sprang up. I think what maybe sets Deb's/Fred's teeth -- not to put words in your mouth - -- and mine on edge in this interpretation of the song is the idea of Joni falling into the old trap of romanticizing the simple life, or romanticizing the lives of the working class (especially by upper-class people), which I feel often has a kind of undercurrent of condescension or patronization. ("Does your smile's covert complicity debase as it admires?") It's hard to put a finger on....but as another example, I think there's an element of it in much of Aaron Copland's work, particularly Appalachian Spring, with its use of everybody's favorite Shaker song. Sorry, I digress. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:29:34 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Today in Joni History - July 20 (amended - and a bit long) i hate to complain about any facts presented by the president of joniland (aka: wallyb) but i was at that famous, ill fated boston concert in 1984, and here is what i know. joni did NOT walk off stage five times. she played two songs completely (she opened with coyote and then played another thru - don't recall the song) and then started to sing song for sharon. she blew a lyric and stopped. regrouped for a moment and started over. she reached the same point in the song (i think it was around the second or third verse) and blew the lyric again. she then said that she always had a hard time performing in front of an audience that was milling around and she was going to take a short break and let everyone find their seats and then would be back. at this point she had been onstage perhaps 15 minutes. and she left. she was gone approx FORTY FIVE minutes. (and let me add, the audience was NOT rowdy. about 95% of us were rapt, as all good joni fans would be in her presence...but the show had just begun, and there were, as at every concert, some late arrivals, and it was those folks who apparently "distracted" her. i recently spoke to another list member who was also at the concert and she met one of the promoters of that show, who apparently referred to joni as a "bitch" and described her sitting in her limo during this 45 minute break, trying get her driver to leave. the promoter and some other behind-the-scene people were telling her (all the while, bringing her drinks and trying to calm her down) that if she left, after 2 and 1/8th songs, she would not be paid. joni was insisting that technically she had "performed" and they HAD to pay her and they insisted if she left - no payday. after a 45 minute or so absence, joni came back on stage, in a different outfit, and without a word, (no: "thanks for being patient" no: "sorry that took so long" ) just started playing again. the crowd was not entirely receptive to her at first, but when she started playing "woodstock" everyone was on their feet and the mood was wonderful, and people started coming up to the stage (it was an outdoor concert, and as described, during the day so it was still light out) and clapping and cheering, and joni finished the song and laid down her guitar and left. no good night. no thanks for coming. no nothing. she just left. just as the concert, for the first time in that awful evening, was taking off! everyone thought it was another break. but then the lights came up and the gates swung open and it was clear, the night was over. (she had performed during this second set for maybe 30-40 minutes!!!) the crowd began to boo. and for the next 3 days or so, every radio station and newspaper and newscast in town savaged her. and rightly so. years later i heard this explanation for her behavior. the concert series was sponsored by miller high life and at the back of the stage was a big sign that was shaped like a bar of music, with a staff and a big treble clef, sort of arcing behind the stage and done in glitter so when the lights hit it, it would sparkle, etc. written across the staff was - yep, "miller hi life". tacky, to be sure, but the band stood in front of this sign and who looked at it anyway? joni, as part of her "set design" for this particular tour, had some hand painted banners that she had done. i am sure they were beautiful, and they were designed to be suspended over the stage and hang down, over her band. the promoters would not let her put them up because, they told her, the banners would obscure the miller high life sign, and as miller was sponsoring the concert series, this could not be allowed!!! so joni was (understandably) upset, if not enraged, before the concert ever began. this does not justify her behavior and the terrible way she treated her fans that night, me included!!! who had paid good money to see and hear her perform and had every right to expect her to give her all. but it does at least, make it understandable. her leaving the stage, and refusing to come back for so long, and then begrudgingly giving us a very abbreviated show had nothing to do with the "rowdy" fans. it had to do with her, apparently, trying to screw the promoters for not allowing her to present the show the way she wanted. but, in fact, she took it out on all of us. so, don't go jumping down my throat listers for telling what i understand to be the truth about joni's bad behavior!! bad joni!! no one loves this woman more than i do (altho i will concede there are plenty out there who love her AS MUCH as i, but not more!!) in my opinion, she acted like a prima donna asshole that night. but who among us hasn't? (ok, maybe kakki!) but, she is a human, and we are all entitled to be an asshole once in awhile. (most of us don't do it in front of thousands of people who paid 50 $$ a pop for the pleasure...) we forgive you joni! please come back to boston! i'll be front row center if she does. so much for today in joni history.... peace. ric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:12:31 +0000 From: michael paz Subject: Crime in N.O. (NJC) David wrote: "Back from Louisiana (via Texas, Arkansas, Kansas, etc.) at last. I haven't had a chance yet to get caught up on list mail -- but wanted to share a story from the trip:" David- Sorry you had such a bad experience in New Orleans. The crime here is horrific (is that a word?). I found out yesterday that one of my clients (who happens to be gay) and his lover were walking their dog in the quarter before going to bed. They were held up right in front of their home. They managed to get away from the thieves and get inside their house. When Kevin tried to lock the door the bastards shot thru the door and killed Kevin, my client. He died in his lovers arms, while the guys fled. Such disregard for life is rampant in our city and goes unchecked because of lack of police. Policemen starring pay in this city is about 18K a year. PLease let me know next time you come to N.O. and I will try to make it up to you by showing you some of the better aspects of the town. Best wishes, Michael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:36:16 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: vegetarianism NJC sherrie - and other veggies. (i just recently became a vegetarian. its only been acouple of weeks for me!!) is this astonishing fact true? i heard that all the grain and corn we feed to our cattle, so we can all have big beefy steaks and roasts - if all that grain were used to feed humans, we could effectively eliminate starvation around the world? could this be true or is it (well meaning) veggie propaganda? if true, that is just about the most immoral thing i have heard in a long time... just wondering. ric (who has his home made, black bean chile simmering on the stove right now...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:06:12 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Fred Walzenfree (NJC) Okay how come nobody told me I forgot to change my sig back from Fred Walzenfree?! Now Fred's gonna come after ME. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:19:49 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: Lori (NJC) How do people find out about people's birthdays? I had to come right out and say mine! It befuddles me (Word of the day)! Colin wroteth: >I believe our Lori hits a milestone tomorrow. > >HAPPY BIRTHDAY, LORI! > >colin ____________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |__________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:26:00 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: Re: vegetarianism NJC Being an occasional vegetarian I wanted to make an opinion. I occasionally eat meat, that is, chicken, turkey but I try my best not to eat ground beef-it looks absolutely disgusting! But I absolutely love animals more than anything (Yes, even Joni! ;) but just because I do eat meat that does not mean I abuse animals, or people for that matter. Much Joni (Stealing Jamie's sig), ____________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |__________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 23:31:24 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: TTT "update"/Joni pic on www.dayintheGarden.com Just visited repriserec.com and saw this "update" in the new release area: Sept. 29 - (tentative) Joni Mithchell You know, considering that the album is ready (based on all accounts I've heard) I don't know why they insist on dragging out the release. She's co-headlining at A Day In The Garden on 8/15, why do they want to wait 6 weeks and loose momentum???? And (not that I'm expecting any good answers to this one) why does www.dayintheGarden.com have a Joni pic from '73/'74 instead of a contemporary photo? -Kenny who wouldn't be surprised if TTT's release eventually gets pushed out to 1999. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #261 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?