From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #260 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, July 17 1998 Volume 03 : Number 260 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- JC: Clarence Green's essay [Kate Tarasenko ] Re: "tourniquet" pronounciation ["Ken (Slarty)" ] Re: brad's back/bay area jmdlers [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Washington Post interview (LJC) [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Oprah mail [TerryM2442@aol.com] Sue's line/Kakki [Diana Duncan ] Re: "tourniquet" pronunciation [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] We Want JONI!!! [Kate Tarasenko ] RE: "tourniquet" pronunciation [trxschwa ] Re: "Tourniquet" pronunciation [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: "tourniquet" pronunciation JC [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: "Tourniquet" pronunciation (NJC) [JRMCo1@aol.com] JC: Mailing Oprah [Kate Tarasenko ] Re: "tourniquet" pronunciation [briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian)] Re: NJC: The best thing for being sad... [Kate Tarasenko ] Barangrill ["Patricia O'Connor" ] Barangrill [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: Barangrill (NJC) [briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian)] Re: Barangrill [briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian)] RE: Barangrill ["Wally Kairuz" ] The Shoes of Folly (Barangrill) [Bolvangar@aol.com] Barangrill revisited 1994 ["Patricia O'Connor" Subject: JC: Clarence Green's essay Re: Clarence Green's essay wherein he attributes the line, "We've got to get ourselves back to the garden" to Crosby, Stills and Nash -- The song was penned by Joni Mitchell who, incidentally, will be appearing at Max Yasgur's farm for the very first time on August 15th as part of "A Day in the Garden," only the second concert to be held on this site since the original Woodstock in '69. (Ms. Mitchell did not appear at Woodstock, although she wrote the now-famous anthem about it.) Ms. Mitchell has been ridiculously under-rated as an artist by the music industry and mainstream media as it is -- please tell Mr. Green to remember his high school journalism instruction and DOUBLE-CHECK HIS ATTRIBUTIONS!! Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:00:40 -0400 From: "Ken (Slarty)" Subject: Re: "tourniquet" pronounciation Jim L'Hommedieu wrote: > I don't know about Canadian pronunciation but until Ken or Susan can > chime in, I'll give you an answer from the USA. We say "tor-nuh-kit". > I had an inverse situation when I heard Roger Waters, of the incredible > band Pink Floyd on their vastly underrated album "The Final Cut". He > says "tore-nuh-kay" which sent me scrambling for the lyric sheet. > This Canuk says tur-na-kit. Of course with out the american accent. :) > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:07:57 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: brad's back/bay area jmdlers In a message dated 98-07-16 20:35:22 EDT, rkbjf@uswest.net writes: << Now it's just a matter of weather or not we can somehow pull this off financially. If all goes well, we'll be in S.F. >> I hope you have good whether in San Francisco! ;>) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:19:05 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Washington Post interview (LJC) In a message dated 7/16/98 5:23:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bdolling@CapAccess.org writes: << Look for it in the Business section in Mondays post. >> Bill, Hey, great news! Will the article be online, you think? Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:31:32 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Oprah mail My AOL mail must have gone haywire; I received SIX responses from Oprah's auto response via her web site. Either that, or Oprah's staff is incredibly enthusiastic about my suggestion that Joni be invited on the show. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:38:39 -0500 From: Diana Duncan Subject: Sue's line/Kakki At 09:41 AM 7/16/1998 -0400, Susan McNamara wrote: >symphonic style of FTR. Awe inspiring. Been playing Barangrill in a >continuous loop on guitar. >this line always mystifies me: >It's just a trick on you >Her mirror and your will I hope one of our more insightful analyzers will speak up on this line. I've been looking it over myself. If I'm not mistaken the whole song is about searching for something in your life. Did we ever decided What??? Contentment?.. isn't that what we all want? Ok, while searching, you go into a Barangrill. These waitresses look so content and happy, so you figure they have all the answers. The trick is they don't. "Mirrors" to me, means a magic trick. You know, it's all done with mirrors. This is alluding to the trick the waitresses played on you.. but really you played it on yourself. "your will" Your will to search for the deeper meaning? maybe? This is a very sad song.. You lost your way, your meaning to life.. Oh, sour grapes! I'm not very sympathetic am I? I'm more apt to say, quit whining, pull yourself up and get on with it. Guess it comes from having to tell myself that! Hey Kakki, wish I could stowaway in your suitcase. I grew up 10 blocks from the beach in S.D. but have never been to Hawaii. And boy! do I need a break from these last 2 weeks of summer school. They try to cram to much in! Have a great time for me! Diana, WP:Jimi Hendrix-Experience on vinal (Had to be quit for the early risers in my house) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 03:45:00 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: "tourniquet" pronunciation Hey Joni friends, The truth is that "tourniquet" is NOT a common word, it just doesn't come up in most people's day to day lives. The other truth is that we're all Joni fans, and SHE says that word in Jungle Line (pronounced "turn-a-kit"). This is definitely the first (only?) place *I* ever heard it. So I wonder if the JMDL is the right place to even ask the question "how do you pronounce tourniquet?" as I wonder how many of us have actually heard that word said/pronounced by anyone *other than* Joni -Kenny thinking out loud, and expecting a flame or two from people who claim to use the word regularly (yeah right :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:00:42 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: We Want JONI!!! Dear Oprah, I'm a native Chicagoan now living in Colorado. I've heard through an internet discussion list, all of us fans of Joni Mitchell, that Joni will be appearing in Chicago in September as part of a benefit concert (at $5,000 per ticket). Needless to say, it is unlikely that any of us will be attending, but how about having Joni on your show? Joni wrote the song "Woodstock," and will be appearing at the original Woodstock site for the first time in mid-August as part of a three-day music festival called "A Day in the Garden." I'm going to see her there, and I can't wait! If you aren't familiar with Ms. Mitchell's work, she is a singer-songwriter who, over her 30-year career, has defied categorization. Although I'm an admitted fan, I have to say that her work ranks in the genius class -- her musicianship is groundbreaking, and her lyricism is peerless. And as remarkable as her music is, she is also an extraordinary painter. Joni's personal life has undergone some amazing transitions. For example, she recently reunited with her 34-year old daughter, whom she gave up for adoption, through an Internet homepage dedicated to her work and maintainted by Wally Breese (http://www.JoniMitchell.com). Please consider having Ms. Mitchell on your show when she is in the Chicago area -- you have millions of fans across the country who would be thrilled to see one of their favorite artists on your show. Thank you for giving my request some thought, and thanks also for such a wonderful show -- I've been watching since you went on the air, and you make such a worthwhile contribution to the world! Sincerely, Kate ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:02:43 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: "tourniquet" pronunciation hey kenny, i'm definitely in another camp about tourniquet. i came to obssessive reading early (1965?) and joni late (1980, sort of) and i've never learned a single piece of my vocabulary from her. i've learned, from her, volumes about the possibilities of the language, of possible usage god bless her, but not one actual word. tourniquet, like most of you, i've known from youth, boy scouts or first aid classes, but known before from books. the pronunciation, i'm guessing, comes from tourniquette, which would have a pronounced t. the vowel sound would shift, in english, to something more null. a schwa sound. but never without the final t. coquette is an english word now, we'd never pronounce it co-kay... trix - -----Original Message----- From: Kenny Grant [SMTP:kg@ibm.net] Sent: Thursday, July 16, 1998 10:45 PM To: "Jim L'Hommedieu"; "Ken (Slarty)" Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: "tourniquet" pronunciation Hey Joni friends, The truth is that "tourniquet" is NOT a common word, it just doesn't come up in most people's day to day lives. The other truth is that we're all Joni fans, and SHE says that word in Jungle Line (pronounced "turn-a-kit"). This is definitely the first (only?) place *I* ever heard it. So I wonder if the JMDL is the right place to even ask the question "how do you pronounce tourniquet?" as I wonder how many of us have actually heard that word said/pronounced by anyone *other than* Joni -Kenny thinking out loud, and expecting a flame or two from people who claim to use the word regularly (yeah right :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:09:19 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: "Tourniquet" pronunciation Subj: Re: "tourniquet" pronunciation Date: 98-07-17 00:07:43 EDT From: IVPAUL42 To: kg@ibm.net, joni@smoe.com In a message dated 98-07-16 23:47:07 EDT, you write: << So I wonder if the JMDL is the right place to even ask the question "how do you pronounce tourniquet?" as I wonder how many of us have actually heard that word said/pronounced by anyone *other than* Joni >> Kenny, I did not think it to be as rare as you say, though it very well may be. I've heard it in first-aid classes and on television and had only heard one p[ronunciation, though I'm not surprised the Brits say it differently. I would have been more surprised, actually, if they pronounced it the same as we do. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:16:08 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: "tourniquet" pronunciation JC In a message dated 98-07-17 00:08:09 EDT, trxschwa@bway.net writes: << i've learned, from her, volumes about the possibilities of the language, of possible usage god bless her, but not one actual word. >> While I marvel at how she can turn a phrase, I also am aware that Joni takes poetic license with both language and pronumciation to fit her needs. For example, she mispronounces "clandestine" so it rhymes with Rhine wine. I don't know how they pronounce it elsewhere, but in my dictionary AND in the British spy movies I've seen, it is pronounced clan-DES-tin, which would rhyme with I'm restin' . Let me clarify that I don't criticize her for this. I like her strength to be able to do it and "get away" with it. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:21:23 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: "Tourniquet" pronunciation (NJC) I'm glad this unlikely topic came up. I've always been fascinated by the Pink Floyd lyric similes on the song whose title eludes me right now: Cold as a razor blade Tight as a tourniquet Dry as a funeral drum... With or without the "t" sound at the end, it works nicely. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:30:07 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: JC: Mailing Oprah Although I copied the list on my mail to Oprah, please don't use the addy that I used -- my mail bounced back (from orprah@mail.com). I re-sent it through her website. Thanks for revving us up! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 21:29:00 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Re: "tourniquet" pronunciation - ---------- > From: Kenny Grant > > The truth is that "tourniquet" is NOT a common word, it just doesn't come up in > most people's day to day lives. > > The other truth is that we're all Joni fans, and SHE says that word in Jungle > Line (pronounced "turn-a-kit"). This is definitely the first (only?) place *I* > ever heard it. > > So I wonder if the JMDL is the right place to even ask the question "how do you > pronounce tourniquet?" as I wonder how many of us have actually heard that word > said/pronounced by anyone *other than* Joni > > -Kenny > thinking out loud, and expecting a flame or two from people who claim to use > the word regularly (yeah right :-) Huh? Ever attended a first-aid class? Boy Scouts? Emergency first aid for sailors/hikers/bikers/whatever? Ever had a blood sample taken? Donated blood? Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 22:41:40 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: Re: NJC: The best thing for being sad... Diana and others who asked: The Merlyn quote comes from T.H. White's "The Sword in the Stone," wherein Merlyn is speaking to young Arthur. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:23:43 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Digital Guitar discussion list (NJC) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 21:20:04 -0500 From: Michael Paz Greetings and salutations list (and grammar police), For those of you interested there is a digital guitar discussion list that has all kinds of digital gtr info including our treasured VG-8. I got zero responses from my VG-8 inquiry a few days ago. How many of us on the list are owners of the VG-8 (Besides Bill and myself)??? The address to subscribe to the DGDP. Paolo Valladolid pvallado@waynesworld.uscd.edu Peace, Michael NP-Down To Zero-Joan Armatrading ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:56:55 -0400 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Barangrill Diana wrote: >I've been looking it over myself. If I'm not mistaken the whole song is >about searching for something in your life. Did we ever decided What??? >Contentment?.. isn't that what we all want? I hear as a famous and wealthy (none of the crazy you get from too much choice/the thumb and the satchel/or the rented Rolls-Royce) person's longing for "normalcy" and maybe for anonymity. After a few drinks thinking the waitress, or the truck-driver, or gas-pumper, have the right idea, they haven't chosen a job that requires them to surpass their previous performance every time they do their job. >"Mirrors" to me, means a magic trick. You know, it's all done with mirrors. >This is alluding to the trick the waitresses played on you.. but really you >played it on yourself. >"your will" Your will to search for the deeper meaning? maybe? I think "your will" is part of the magic trick, you see what you want to see,even when you know it isn't there. But humble doesn't make pure, the wealth and fame is too hard to abandon, and she drives away having chosen the "rented Rolls-Royce". This theme recurs in FTR: I guess I seem ungrateful/With my teeth sunk in the hand/That brings me things/I really can't give up just yet some get the gravy/and some get the gristle 'cause it seems like you gotta give up/such a piece of your soul/when you give up the chase But it passes like the summer/I'm a wild seed again/Let the wind carry me POC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 98 06:20:25 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Barangrill Hi Diana, If Joni's searching for anything in Barangrill, I think it's an escape from her reality. She starts out looking to alcohol for that, but discovers that levity can provide the same escape. She seems to be in a world full of complications, difficult decisions and choices, "show me the way to Barangrill," let me drink myself stupid and forget my troubles. But she meets people along the way who seem so "light and easy", simple people with simple lives, no hard choices, no complications, no troubles, talking shop, talking banalities: talking about zombies and Singapore slings no trouble in their faces, not one anxious voice none of the crazy you get from too much choice Or thinking banalities: and you just have to laugh cause it's all so crazy ah, her mind's on her boyfriend and eggs over easy Or singing banalities: and he makes up his own tune right on the spot about whitewalls and windshields and this job he's got Suddenly, she realizes "hey, maybe there's something to all this, maybe if you don't dig too deep it's much easier -- none of these people seem to have a care in the world, they're wrapped up in their plain, simple lives...maybe that's the ticket, I just need to lighten up, don't need a drink after all." And you want to get moving, and you want to stay still But lost in the moment some longing gets filled And you even forget to ask "Hey, Where's Barangrill?" I've never pondered the meaning of some of the symbolism -- black diamond earrings, her mirrors and your will. Guess I never really understood them, but felt I understood the point of the song in spite of that... -Kenny On 7/16/98, Diana Duncan wrote: I hope one of our more insightful analyzers will speak up on this line. I've been looking it over myself. If I'm not mistaken the whole song is about searching for something in your life. Did we ever decided What??? Contentment?.. isn't that what we all want? Ok, while searching, you go into a Barangrill. These waitresses look so content and happy, so you figure they have all the answers. The trick is they don't. "Mirrors" to me, means a magic trick. You know, it's all done with mirrors. This is alluding to the trick the waitresses played on you.. but really you played it on yourself. "your will" Your will to search for the deeper meaning? maybe? This is a very sad song.. You lost your way, your meaning to life.. Oh, sour grapes! from these last 2 weeks of summer school. They try to cram to much in! Have a great time for me! Diana ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:25:14 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Re: Barangrill (NJC) > From: Patricia O'Connor > > After a few drinks thinking the > waitress, or the truck-driver, or gas-pumper, have the right idea, they > haven't chosen a job that requires them to surpass their previous > performance every time they do their job. Although I know perfectly well what you are saying here, and I am in agreement with your analysis, my recent experiences have given me a unique opportunity to read something else into this sentence. Have you ever worked with people who *never* surpass their previous performance on the job? People who continue to do the same thing over and over again, at the same level of quality, year after year, never learning, never improving, never even thinking about the possibility of learning or improving? People to whom the word "better" is ambiguous, who always make the same mistakes, methodically and predictably, each and every time they do the job, and don't seem to even notice, let alone care? No? Well, try building a house. Hire a contractor and his crew to do the job. If I ever do this *again*, I'm going to hire farm animals - they have larger vocabularies and learn faster. Today's episode? After carefully wiring the entire house for audio/video/phone/computer, and labeling all the cables with color-coded wire-ties so I would know which wire clusters in the wiring closet went to which outlets, the sheet-rockers cut off all the wire-ties, leaving me with about 30 loose cables. I have no idea where any of them go. Something like this occurs about twice each week. Thanks for letting me be a grumble bunny - it's more ethical than killing the sheet rocker. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 23:41:42 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Re: Barangrill > From: Kenny Grant > > If Joni's searching for anything in Barangrill, I think it's an escape from her > reality. She starts out looking to alcohol for that, but discovers that levity > can provide the same escape. > > She seems to be in a world full of complications, difficult decisions and > choices, "show me the way to Barangrill," let me drink myself stupid and forget > my troubles. > > But she meets people along the way who seem so "light and easy", simple people > with simple lives, no hard choices, no complications, no troubles, talking > shop, talking banalities: > > talking about zombies and Singapore slings > no trouble in their faces, not one anxious voice > none of the crazy you get from too much choice > > Or thinking banalities: > > and you just have to laugh cause it's all so crazy > ah, her mind's on her boyfriend and eggs over easy > > Or singing banalities: > > and he makes up his own tune right on the spot > about whitewalls and windshields and this job he's got > > Suddenly, she realizes "hey, maybe there's something to all this, maybe if you > don't dig too deep it's much easier -- none of these people seem to have a care > in the world, they're wrapped up in their plain, simple lives...maybe that's > the ticket, I just need to lighten up, don't need a drink after all." Yep, I agree, except those "simple" people are talking about Zombies and Singapore Slings. Those are exotic mixed alcoholic beverages. Maybe those "simple people with simple lives, no hard choices, no complications, no troubles" are trying to drown their consciousness under a sea of booze too. Maybe the simple life ain't so simple. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------- Everyone who lives confronts the soul transfigured By two great dynamics of human life - Love and Loss. These two elemental chemicals of change invade the soul directly through the heart. Love injects the drug of pleasure Mining rich caverns of meaning and self-assurance. We become bound to life, our wealth increases. Like delicious food, we consume it with desire - we transform through pleasure. Loss injects the poison of pain, exhausting those caverns of their ore Leaving only hollow reverberations of self-doubt. Connections are loosened, our riches vanish. Like chemotherapy, we accept it with fear, hoping to survive - we transform through pain. We crave the former and shun the latter, but of the two, Loss is the greater power. In the end everything we love is lost. Death strips us of all we hold close. Art, innocence, beauty, Friends, family, lovers, Dreams not started, or finished. It is not the presence of one or the other which distinguishes a rich life from a poor one. It is merely a matter of balance and the order of appearance. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 03:46:02 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Barangrill Here I go again telling a Joni story without citing sources, but I swear it's from a real interview. Joni didn't have a third stanza for Barangrill and was kind of looking for one. She actually stopped at a gas station, and this attendant told her that he too was a singer. So Joni said:"Oh yeah? Well, sing something." And the guy right then and there started singing this Nat King Cole number, maybe the one that goes "Chestnuts roasting on an open fire...". She at once decided to put the guy in Barangrill. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:50:34 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: The Shoes of Folly (Barangrill) Sue McNamara wrote: >symphonic style of FTR. Awe inspiring. Been playing Barangrill in a >continuous loop on guitar. For the longest time I misheard the line in Barangrill "you're hopin' it's near folly 'cause you're headed that way for sure" as "...'cause you're headed that way for SHOES." (I guess this was because of how Joni draws out the "ooooo" vowel sound, which I don't even put into the word "sure" -- though please don't feel any need to start a thread on variant pronounciations of "sure" on my account.) Isn't that interesting though? While it may seem odd to analyze a line which exists only theoretically, I must say I find "shoes" in this line extremely intriguing -- casting Folly as a prosaic part of everyday life, like the grocery store; or juxtaposing concepts and ideals, like Service and Folly, with the realities of everyday life -- and love the sudden whimsy of it, and the poetic freedom in how it breaks the rhyme scheme. I like it better than the real line. :) I've always felt that the song is partly about happiness being where you find it -- while Joni is on her search for fulfillment, the waitresses have "no trouble in their faces/not one anxious voice" and the guy at the gas pumps seems happy. with his whitewalls and windshields ("he makes up his own tune").... And maybe another part of it is Joni feeling isolated or awkward ("lost in the moment"), a little, because so many people around her seem to have found the key to the fulfillment and happiness that she lacks herself ("....the crazy you get from too much choice"). - --David NP: _A Peacock Once Went Flying_ (South Russian folk song, field recordings) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 02:57:33 -0400 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Barangrill revisited 1994 Barangrill revisited??: "Driving in traffic is difficult, extreme. Your fellow civilians are hostile. The shopping center is full of Russians who, like, try to beat you if you don't watch your bill; they're all like black-market immigrants or something. The restaurants that I eat in are close enough to Brentwood, but there's an influx of, like, you know, sickly tourists wanting to know where the woman shops and how to copy her." Joni Mitchell, quoted from Special from Newsday, by David Herndon 1994 (Les has put up alot of "new" articles! Thanks Les.) POC ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #260 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?