From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #255 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Tuesday, July 14 1998 Volume 03 : Number 255 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- HDCD ReMasters [davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine)] Re: Bizarre Mingus packaging [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] HDCD ReMasters [davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine)] Our Late Empire (NJC) [davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine)] RE: Pop (SJC) [Michael Yarbrough ] Music to ??? by...(NJC) [RMuRocks@aol.com] re: Those kids in Canada ("Song for Sharon") [BarBearUh ] VG-8??? [Michael Paz ] NJC: Cowboy Junkies ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] NJC: Audiophiles Lurk No More ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Joni on Grammar [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Tuck and Patti (NJC) [JRMCo1@aol.com] What other HDCD's are out there? [simon@icu.com] Those kids in Canada ("Song for Sharon") [simon@icu.com] Colloquial Joni-speak ["Kakki" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:57:04 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: HDCD ReMasters Brian Odlum says: I think that most of what we discuss here is subjective, and frequenty issues don't get resolved. There are probably some on the list without a finely honed sense of pitch, but no one objected to the Paprika Plains thread. I have heard only one Joni HDCD release, Hejira, and to my ear the difference is very clear. There is considerably more "separation," so that each instrument is more distinct. However, I too heard the strangely "metallic" sound which someone alluded to. I think I prefer the sound of my vinyl Hejira over either C.D., and I'm eager to hear the new vinyl pressings. As far as HDCD being a sign of our "late empire," what isn't? To me, it's heartening that the decline of our culture at least gives us a chance to listen to higher quality recordings of Joni! Peace, David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 14:04:05 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Bizarre Mingus packaging Dear Roberto, For some strange reason, my Mingus CD originally came with *2* inserts. Never did understand why, and while I was gonna throw the superfluous one out when I first unpacked the CD, I held on to it. So, my friend, just send me your address off-line, and I'll drop the spare insert in the mail! It has pics, lyrics, and everything, and its been looking for a good jewel case for a long time now :-) -Kenny On 7/13/98 9:34PM, in message , Robert Holliston wrote: Hi everyone, I just (finally) picked up Mingus on CD However, the packaging is mighty poor! No lyrics are printed, and although Joni's written introduction, which lists the musicians who played on the unreleased takes, is included, no mention is made of the musicians who play on the actual recording. Needless to say, the paintings featuring Charles Mingus that grace the original album are nowhere to be found. Well, that's Warner Bros., I guess! One more reason to hang onto those old vinyl records ;-) All the best, Mac-happy Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:10:04 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: HDCD ReMasters - --WebTV-Mail-892979071-69 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit - --WebTV-Mail-892979071-69 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQAyDtZHbpPJvnKqjKY0yttVtEOPwIUPwwW5//q8XnljX5R9tYiWK1wTDw= From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:57:04 -0700 (PDT) To: joni@smoe.org Subject: HDCD ReMasters Message-ID: <27015-35AABAF0-102@mailtod-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Brian Odlum says: I think that most of what we discuss here is subjective, and frequenty issues don't get resolved. There are probably some on the list without a finely honed sense of pitch, but no one objected to the Paprika Plains thread. I have heard only one Joni HDCD release, Hejira, and to my ear the difference is very clear. There is considerably more "separation," so that each instrument is more distinct. However, I too heard the strangely "metallic" sound which someone alluded to. I think I prefer the sound of my vinyl Hejira over either C.D., and I'm eager to hear the new vinyl pressings. As far as HDCD being a sign of our "late empire," what isn't? To me, it's heartening that the decline of our culture at least gives us a chance to listen to higher quality recordings of Joni! Peace, David - --WebTV-Mail-892979071-69-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:34:26 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: Our Late Empire (NJC) In quoting Brian Odlum I misspelled the word "resolvable." Brian, in his original post, spelled the word correctly. Sorry, Brian. I suspect that obsessive concerns about grammar and spelling are common in the late empire. I share some of these concerns. Still, I hope we can get past all this policing of people's posts. This is a DISCUSSION list, not a composition list. My sense is that lately some listers have felt less free to express themselves for fear of being censured. I hope I'm wrong. Peace, David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:27:59 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Pop (SJC) Don Rowe wrote: <<Except that I wonder what Joni would think of being thrown >in with that packet of "pop"dom? > "Pop" has always been a schizophrenic category in the music industry ... today putting together such disparate styles as Fleetwood Mac, The Spice Girls, Garth Brooks and Puff Daddy (with Jimmie Page, or all people). I'm sure there was a time when Joni showed up on the "pop" lists with The Monkees, The Who (or should it be "The Whom"? I can never tell on this list!), Creedence Clearwater Revival, Donovan and others.>>> Hate to state the obvious, but isn't "pop" just short for "popular"? And doesn't it thus function not so much to name a style of music, but to refer to the music of the masses? I.e. distinguish it from classical? I know I use it in three different ways. One just to refer to all popular music--rock, country, r&b, hip-hop,--basically anything that's not classical or jazz. I think that's how Ms. Baez was using it. I also use it in its older sense to refer to non-jazz vocal singers like Judy Garland and Frank Sinatra, etc. And I've used it to refer to bands that emphasize simple song structures and big melodic hooks, most of whom are even more direct descendents of the Beatles and the Beach Boys than the average rock-widely-defined band. I'm thinking of bands like Big Star, the Posies, Belle and Sebastian, etc. I use this mostly when I'm talking to my indie-freak friends, 'cuz that's the only kind of "pop" they ever bother talking about. Anyway, when Joan says Joni is pushing the boundaries of "pop," I think she's saying that she's pushing the boundaries of the "popular song," which isn't so segmented a category after all. - --Michael NP: Stan Getz and Joao Gilberto, _Getz/Gilberto_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:45:11 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Music to ??? by...(NJC) Hey Julie, Here's my response to your query about what kind of music do we do such-and- such by: 1. Working Out: Loud & Fast, AC/DC, heavy metal. The gym I go to is a private company gym so when I work out Sundays it's just me, and I get to crank it up! 2. Walking: Since the only time I walk is when I stroll with my spouse, there's no music as we're usually conversing. Likewise, walks on the beach are great accompanied only by the sounds of ocean and birds. 3. Dancing: It's awfully hard to beat Prince, although I like to dance to stuff so ridiculously fast it becomes a workout(Footloose, Rock Lobster, Whip It). Here in South Carolina our State Dance is "The Shag", kind of a jitterbug on quaaludes, which is designed so you can hold your beer in one hand, spin your partner with the other, and slow enough so when the slow numbers come up at the end of the night you're not all sweaty. 4. Cooking: I prefer Jazz mostly, like a Wes Montgomery or Oscar Peterson trio. Unless I'm cooking on the grill, then it's gotta be the blues, old or new, Chicago, Memphis, it doesn't matter. 5. Goat Dancing: For serious Goat Dancing, it's gotta be Prince/Artist - his stuff goes from simmering slow to raucous loud and back and makes me want to bang the paint off the walls - but hey, Fertile Daughter, that "Goat" dancing can lead to "Kids" if you're not careful. Now if I want to slow things down, candlelight, wine on the nightstand, it's Tuck & Patti, oh yeah... (Wasn't that a Burt Reynolds movie, "The Man who Loved Goat Dancing"?) P.s. I know it was really "Cat Dancing" Well, time to dance myself off to sleep...... Bob M. in SC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:00:48 +0000 From: BarBearUh Subject: re: Those kids in Canada ("Song for Sharon") Mary wrote: > According to the show, a certain > Native American tribe is heavily represented among these workers, who > perform tasks at heights that would make most people shudder. ...... Apparently, > they have been employed in this > fashion for generations: they were instrumental in constructing the > Empire State Building. i don't remember the tribe name either, but i've heard about this for years, and remember running into it when i was doing some research for a documentary on skyskrapers. it is indeed true. > I'm extremely wary of any attempts to link ability to perform given > tasks to race (the balancing skills), or even, to a lesser extent, to > culture (which seemed to be implied in the show's comments on > concentration). it may be that we are on the brink of changing some of our notions about this. with the incredible leaps being made in the study of genetics, there are many characteristics that are now attributed to heredity. a friend of mine is working on a show on genetics and has run into some very interesting stuff. she interviewed 42 year old twins who had been separated at birth and reunited very recently. they had been raised in completely different ways - different region, religion, parents with very different backgrounds, et al. they are so similar it's uncanny. both like to wear blue. both have a fear of height and hate to be on big bridges. they speak with the same cadence and expressions. my friend is interviewing some of the top names in the field, and all of these scientists believe that who we are is at least 50% genetic - not just what we look like, but personality as well. they have found that twins separated at birth are just as similar/different as those who are raised together. all that's to say, if you can have a fear of heights in common, i certainly think you can have a good sense of balance in common. not to say that any particular race is good or bad at any particular activity, but that it makes sense that within a tribe, a certain characteristic can arise and maintain itself. > "Little Indian kids on a bridge up in Canada, they can balance and they > can climb > Like their fathers before them, they'll walk the girders of the > Manhattan skyline." > > Anyone know anything more about this, including what Joni may have > intended by these lines? i think those lines add texture to the song. the song is about how she and her childhood friend made different choices in life. it's apparent that it was written in NY, with some references to the north. in the same verse are these lines: shine on me miss liberty because as soon as this ferry boat docks... and the song opens with 'i went to staten island'. it seems pretty clear to me that she wrote it (or was inspired to write it) on the staten island ferry (you can see the statue of liberty on the ride). perhaps just looking at the manhattan skyline from the ferry and knowing about the tribes from home brought the bridge imagery to mind. i don't think the lines do anything to push the story forward, but they do add some color - some shades of youth. barbara np: bruce cockburn, charity of night ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:07:34 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Joni on Grammar Said Joni: "I belonged to an extracurricular writers' club in my school, although I was a bad English student because I was good in composition, but I wasn't good in the dissection of English, you know. So even in a subject which I later enjoyed, I wasn't scholastically good in it because I didn't like to break it down and analyze it in that manner, and I liked to speak in slang." - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:09:03 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Tuck and Patti (NJC) This is the second mention of Tuck and Patti today I've seen from Bob, and earlier Julius talked of his knowing them. Aren't they just phenomenal? I listed them on my jmdl bio in the gallery as favs last year, and have met them a couple of times and have made some great pics with autograph messages from them. Tuck rivals Pat Metheny in skill on the guitar, though they have very differing styles. Patti is so deep and strong with her emotive singing. If you can, listen to their version of "Woodstock". With Sue Chaloner's new webpages of her Rascal (darling!), I am inspired to get my netself together and perhaps have my photos of the famous put up for all who dare to point and click... Marsha, asking Julius to let Tuck and Patti know when I plan to visit him one day, so we can commune RMuRocks@aol.com wrote: > Now if I want to slow things down, > candlelight, wine on the nightstand, it's Tuck & Patti, oh yeah... \ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:12:45 -0500 From: Michael Paz Subject: VG-8??? Hello all- A while back there was a thread about the VG-8 and patch changing. Since that post I have been experimenting alot with it and here is what i have found. Like most tome generators that I am familiar with when you change a patch in the middle of a chord resonating, it cuts off. If there are other instruments, this glitch (as it were) would be masked by the other sounds present (drums, bass, pedal steel, etc.) If one mutes the strings before changing the patch, there is no noticeable glitch. I hope this helps for whoever it was that asked the question and I apologize for not remembering who it was an emailing you privately. Furthermore, I was wondering who else on the list has VG-8's besides Bill????? And would any of you be interested in trading patches for the VG-8 and or other tome generators. I have programmed a tom of stuff for the Roland D-50/D-550, Korg M1/M1R or T-series instruments. I have quite a few patches I have created for the VG as well. I am also interested in checking to see if my Joni patches are correct. Thanx. Love and gratitude for the list, Michael NP-You Turn Me On-Live in Hawaii 73 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:32:48 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC: Cowboy Junkies The Cowboy Junkies are slated to appear on Dave Letterman's show Wednesday night on CBS. Does anyone have any video of them? Has anyone heard the new album? - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 01:21:25 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC: Audiophiles Lurk No More It's great to see a thread about audiophile concerns. I rebuilt my Joni collection after an ex-girlfriend wrote across the vinyl of all my Joni titles. After I kissed off that flaky valentine, it was fun to find one used LP after another for $2.00 in US Dollars (less than the price of 4 litres of petrol). **Movie news: "Hope Floats" is in the discount theater here in Cincinnati. When I attended there were lots of women crying. If you need a good cry, attend. - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 01:39:31 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni on Grammar In a message dated 98-07-14 00:11:13 EDT, JRMCo1@aol.com writes: << Said Joni: "I belonged to an extracurricular writers' club in my school, although I was a bad English student because I was good in composition, but I wasn't good in the dissection of English, you know. So even in a subject which I later enjoyed, I wasn't scholastically good in it because I didn't like to break it down and analyze it in that manner, and I liked to speak in slang." >> This admission by Joni is akin to the one from the mid-'70s in a magazine article (I think it might have been Downbeat?) in which she said she didn't know how to read music. "Ignorance is bliss," Joni was quoted as saying. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 01:39:15 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Tuck and Patti (NJC) Marsha writes: << Marsha, asking Julius to let Tuck and Patti know when I plan to visit him one day, so we can commune >> Will do, Marsha. But they seem to be on a never-ending world tour these days. Such is their popularity. But you come on down anyway, you hear? I met them years ago when I was a Communication major in college. This was before they had a recording contract. I produced and directed their first ever video as a student project. They used it to auditon for the "Tonight Show" with Johnny Carson. I should've pulled a "Geffen" and signed them to my own new label! This will be the first time I've seen them since Michael Hedges passed away. They were close, having started their careers in the same place and around the same time, even before they were on Windham Hill. So sad, his death. Interesting thing about their latest CD "Learning How to Fly" (1994). My favorite song on it is a song co-written by Jim Carrey. Yes, *that* Jim Carrey. A touching ballad called "Heaven Down Here." Listmembers in Marin and the SF Bay Area should check Tuck & Patti out this Saturday. Tickets are still available, I think. They're playing outside in a backyard size venue. Picnics are encouraged. Let me know if you need info. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:53:13 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: What other HDCD's are out there? Hassan Zubairi writes > >Does the HDCD version of Blue still have that cute 'lil crackle on >This Flight Tonight? (I don't mean the tinny overtheheadphones singing.) >Does your normal version have that cute 'lil crackle. Is it just me? > >What other HDCD's are out there: Is STAS on this format yet? I know if >I could hear that album as clearly as Hits' Urge For Going there would >certainly be a lotta goat dancin' goin' on. > i don't hear any 'lil crackle on my copies, but that doesn't mean it's you. the disc itself could be scratched or otherwise defective. "What other HDCD's are out there?" all of Joni Mitchell's Elektra/Asylum albums: 1. For The Roses 2. Court And Spark 3. Miles Of Aisles 4. The Hissing Of Summer Lawns 5. Hejira 6. Don Juan's Reckless Daughter 7. Mingus 8. Shadows And Light (2CD's) Hits + Misses are also HDCD releases as was the Promo CD Words+Music ~ Joni Mitchell & Morrissey (PRO-CD-8610). I haven't seen any of the other Reprise titles yet, but suspect that STAS, CLOUDS & LOTC may be in the distributor pipeline and show up soon. that's the way it worked with the previous re-issues. they showed up as retailers re-ordered. they appeared on a random basis. One additional, small point. "HDCD is not a format. Instead, it is a technology to maximize the fidelity of the formats established by the large consumer-electronics companies." Andy Johnson VP, Pacific Microsonics hope this helps. - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:52:00 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Those kids in Canada ("Song for Sharon") Mary Pitassi writes > >I caught a few minutes of a television program last night that piqued my >curiosity > > > >The program included a feature on construction workers who labor on some >of the tallest buildings in New York. According to the show, a certain >Native American tribe is heavily represented among these workers, who >perform tasks at heights that would make most people shudder. The show >suggested that members of this tribe--can't remember its name--seem to >be blessed with both preternaturally good balance and the ability to >concentrate deeply, which is absolutely necessary to do this work >without getting spooked. Apparently, they have been employed in this >fashion for generations: they were instrumental in constructing the >Empire State Building. > >I'm extremely wary of any attempts to link ability to perform given >tasks to race (the balancing skills), or even, to a lesser extent, to >culture (which seemed to be implied in the show's comments on >concentration). Even so, I could resist dragging out my worn copy of >"Hejira." Sure enough, there were the lines that had never made sense >to me before: > >"Little Indian kids on a bridge up in Canada, they can balance and they >can climb. Like their fathers before them, they'll walk the girders of >the Manhattan skyline." > >Anyone know anything more about this, including what Joni may have >intended by these lines? And did anyone see the complete segment >last night? > these construction workers are Structural Ironworkers. the Native Americans in question are in all likelihood Mohawk, many of whose members have long been employed as both Structural as well as Ornamental Iron workers. other Nations of the 'Iroquois Confederacy' also have had numerous members employed as Ironworkers. the Iroquois Confederacy (aka: the Six Nations), consists of the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca and Tuscarora. you're right to be wary of arguments based on *biological determinism*. Mohawks and other Native Americans have done what other 'ethnic' groups have always done -- taken advantage of the opportunities available. "Preternaturally good balance & the ability to concentrate deeply"? this is clearly ludicrous, although many people believe this type of nonsense -- including many non-Indian Ironworkers doing the same job. Culture has a number of definitions, including ... 1. Special training and development 2. Improvement by care and training many Native Americans follow fathers, uncles and older brothers into the construction trades. many have grown up knowing that this would be their primary employment opportunity. elders often (always?) pass on their knowledge, experience and wisdom to the younger generation. there is also a 4-year apprenticeship to become a 'Journeyman' Ironworker. this includes both classroom instruction as well as on-the-job training. "Little Indian kids on a bridge up in Canada They can balance and they can climb Like their fathers before them They'll walk the girders of the Manhattan skyline" _____________________________________ "Cherokee Louise is hiding in a tunnel In the Broadway Bridge We're crawling on our knees We've got flashlights and batteries We've got cold cuts from the fridge" Joni is referring to the Broadway Bridge in Saskatoon, (aka) "The City Of Bridges" according to Joni. she also mentioned the Grand Trunk Bridge when introducing the song "Cherokee Louise" during the MuchMusic TV Broadcast (9-23-94). TT#2 she used play on these bridges in her youth. "Cherokee Louise" BTW is based on a real-life story that occured when Joni was 13 years old. the young girl in question was Mary Waddington, a Cree Indian. hope this helps NP: ROBBIE ROBERTSON: Contact From the Underworld Of Redboy Robbie's mother is a Mohawk and he spent most summers in his youth on the Six Nations reservation in Canada. Great Album, so was the previous one "Music from The NATIVE AMERICANS" - ------- simon - ------- P.S. Les, is this an example of "Compulsive Corrective Syndrome"? or is it just opinion and information offered in response to questions asked? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:50:52 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Colloquial Joni-speak From one of the greatest lyricists of the Old millenia ;-) "Don't it always seem to go..." "Love's a repetitious danger, you'd think I'd be accustomed to..." "You know you ain't bad looking..." "And my search for love that don't seem to cease..." "Now you're thinking there's no substitute, it just don't do it..." "She don't know the system, plus she don't understand.." "But when he's gone, me and them lonesome blues collide..." Kakki ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #255 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?