From: les@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #250 Reply-To: joni@smoe.org Sender: les@jmdl.com Errors-To: les@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, July 11 1998 Volume 03 : Number 250 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Joni Imports and Concert Quips ["Patricia O'Connor" ] re: (LJC) Grammar thread [Robert Holliston ] RE: (LJC) Grammar thread ["Wally Kairuz" ] re: NJC Grammar (my last...) [Robert Holliston ] corrective syndrome ["Deb Messling" ] Music in Latinates (sjc) [Thomas Ross ] Re: Joni-Reincarnation [Thomas Ross ] Re: JT [Thomas Ross ] Re: grammar and revising the English language [Thomas Ross ] NJC:Next 17yrs? [catman ] Re: NJC:Next 17yrs? [Heather ] Things that Joni Said [Ashara@aol.com] re: Grammar thread [Sue ] Re: corrective syndrome [Marsha ] (NJC)Re: corrective syndrome (NJC) [Marsha ] Re: corrective syndrome ["Deb Messling" ] Donovan (NJC) [simon@icu.com] Re: pachyderm (jc) [Bounced Message ] Re: (NJC)Re: corrective syndrome (NJC) [FredNow@aol.com] Re: Donovan (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Joni at Studio 54 [Doug McCallister ] Re: pachyderm and goat dancing [Beverly ] Re: pachyderm and goat dancing ["Kakki" ] Before The Goldrush [simon@icu.com] Re: JT [FredNow@aol.com] Grammar (NJC) [FredNow@aol.com] Donovan [Sue ] Re: Grammar (NJC) ["Kakki" ] Re: Grammar (NJC) [catman ] NJC: Harvey Milk ["Happy The Man" ] Re: pachyderm and goat dancing [WombQueen@aol.com] Re: blue motel room - happy/sad - lyrics/music [Beverly Subject: Re: Joni Imports and Concert Quips Allison wrote: >P.S.--Is the Patricia O'Connor who's posted recently the swimmer who lives in SLC and who turned in a paper once that said, "Joni Rules"? I suppose it's possible, there is a lot I forget, although if I'm going to be a sportswoman, I'd rather be known as The Polo-Player. Where's SLC? POC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:13:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: SoCal Party Pictures... Ken, Gosh, man! I never wanted you to get into trouble!! Take all the time you need, the Vancouver photos will be well worth the wait :-) After all, *we* were at Chardonnay's.... Yours in total coolness (along with Kenny, Cul, Brett, and others too cool even to mention....) Roberto ps - the SoCal photos are really wonderful...... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 02:13:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: (LJC) Grammar thread Hey everyone, I've sure been enjoying this here grammar thread! Suze: Is school ever really out? I was particularly interested to read that someone objected to lack of agreement between "everyone" and "their" [it should be "his or her"] - at least one great novelist consistently makes this mistake. Her name is Jane Austen. To add flame to the fire, has anyone read John Simon's PARADIGMS LOST? It is a collection of essays, originally published in Esquire during the mid-1970s, dealing with usage and abuse of English. People at the time found these essays elitist, offensive, funny, enlightening, helpful, etc., you get my point. Simon being Simon, he couldn't resist using his podium to take potshots at Barbara Walters, Erica Jong, Rex Reed, and Gore Vidal, each of whom gets amusingly skewered. In one chapter, he takes to task a University Professor of English Literature who uses as his curriculum the lyrics - and album photos - of Joan Baez, Bob Dylan, Buffy Sainte-Marie, and Joni Mitchell (in all of Simon's other writings there is only one other reference to Joni, and it is laudatory). In support of all you conservative grammarians, at one time "infer" and "imply" were not synonyms, and neither were "disinterested" and "uninterested." At one time, writers could use words like "wonderful," "fabulous," and "fantastic" knowing that each of these words means a specific and different thing (they are now apparently interchangable, which strikes me as a loss to the language). I sent Mr. Simon a letter (he never responded) defending Joni's use of English - in "Otis and Marlena," she provides a textbook example of how to use the word "hopefully" properly: They jiggle into surgery Hopefully beneath the blade... Signing in as a conservative grammarian - and grateful to have his errors pointed out - Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:15:01 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: (LJC) Grammar thread Robert wrote: In support of all you conservative grammarians, at one time "infer" and >"imply" were not synonyms, and neither were "disinterested" and >"uninterested." At one time, writers could use words like "wonderful," >"fabulous," and "fantastic" knowing that each of these words means a >specific and different thing When did uninterested and disinterested become synonyms? Maybe the day that continuously and continually, real and really, affect and effect accept and except, aggravating and irritating, etc. became synonyms too? [ I confess that sometimes I use aggravating instead of irritating to sound less like a misfit, though.] (they are now apparently interchangable, which >strikes me as a loss to the language). Or at least a loss to those who still appreciate the difference. Languages somehow don't become *poorer*, they simply evolve [ in the times of Shakespeare nice meant silly, for example]. Yet, I think it's a horribly authoritarian act to force people to use a different standard of English just so that they will feel that they *fit in*. Linguists speak of upward and downward convergence and divergence, meaning in plain English that we should attempt to adjust to our listeners and readers. However, that doesn't mean that those that adhere to standard usage must turn to sub-standard forms not to be called names by those that are biased against standard usage. Who gives a damn if you or I use dangling participles or ignore the difference betweeen compare with and compare to. As long as communication takes place, anything goes. But please respect my right to write according to established standards if I choose to, and don't feel so fucking threatened if someone brings up a grammar point. After all, what's the difference between that and discussing the right tuning to play Cactus Tree. JM has used the English language to write her songs [ aside from the occasional baila mi rumba, amour and la dolce vita] just as substantially as she has used the piano or the guitar. >I sent Mr. Simon a letter (he never responded) defending Joni's use of >English - in "Otis and Marlena," she provides a textbook example of how to >use the word "hopefully" properly: > They jiggle into surgery > Hopefully beneath the blade... That's exactly the example I always use when I teach the diference between "hopefully" and "it is hoped". WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 03:22:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: NJC Grammar (my last...) Hi y'all, I'm sorry to refer to a post I've deleted - but, I think it was Paul IV who said something like "I hope you are fully conversant with the grammar of your mother tongue" - Paul said it much more succinctly. In an earlier post, I referred to John Simon, an excellent writer and critic who learned English as a fourth or fifth language, and who is - whatever else you may think of him - a superb writer in this difficult language. Please let me sing the praises of a fellow lister: I would give anything to have the kind of command of a second language that Wally Kairuz has of English - and, as he has told us, he taught himself! I continually find myself forgetting that Spanish is Wally's mother tongue. And there may be others (Winfried? Jussi? to name just two....) What a great community we have! All the best to all, Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:44:16 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: corrective syndrome Well, I would defend the practice of correcting misinformation, just because this list is archived, and indexed by search engines, and some poor soul may use our discussions to find information on Joni - let's give them a fighting chance that what they find is correct! > 1. compulsive JONI corrective syndrome---for those who jump > at the chance to chide misinformation about our diva, and > use lots of little division lines while doing it Fred Walzenfree ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:34:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Music in Latinates (sjc) as you like it - - but I don't. few can use Latinates and make them sound any good. Dickinson and Shakespeare, Marianne Moore - - but not Mitchell. examples to the contrary? TR On Fri, 10 Jul 1998, Patricia O'Connor wrote: > >And if she's using it in the sense of "LIKE" its clearly correct. > > As in, "Does your similes covert complicity..." > > POC > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:08:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Re: Joni-Reincarnation > > Also on the grammar thing, > I hope that everyone remembers that Joni doesn't always stick to the rules of grammar in her work: > > 'Does your smiles covert complicity, debase as it admires?' > > We know what it means, but is it correct? eek! grammatical or no, I think it's still abstruse and sounds like 'kicking a drunk' (Johnny Smith's phrase for clunker notes on the guitar). . . Ms Mitchell has done better! reminds me of Browning's 'irks care the cropfill bird?' from *The Stuffed Owl", a hilarious collection of bad verse from the famous and unknown. TR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:16:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Re: JT > In a message dated 7/10/98 3:39:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FredNow@aol.com > writes: > > << Anyway, James is the man, and I strongly urge all to catch him if you can. > >> > > Fred, > > You are not alone! James is my man too- I've been a huge fan of his ever > since, well, ever since. I get this gnawing feeling that he won't be fully > appreciated till he's gone. To me, he is the master American story > teller/songwriter; the Mark Twain of our generation. > > His guitar work is brilliant. The seemingly simplicity of it, along with his > melodies, betrays it's complexity (try playing Secret O' Life). I, too, am > surprised to have seen little written about him here. > > Terry o yes. and the recent PBS live concert shows a continued invention and vitality. my brother-in-law disparages him as the 'Perry Como of the 70s', but in addition to all the nice round edges there's serious musicianship. Play? oh yeah. Sing? Betcha! 'I'll cry every time that you put in one more dime and let the boy sing the sad one one more time' or to that effect. mmmmm! TR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:00:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Re: grammar and revising the English language "to boldly split infinitives. . ." Yeah I'm of 2 or 3 minds about this. Academese and English English are elegant and powerful tools, but not the only ones. When T H White said he was reflecting usage, he meant these dialects. . . and within them there are ways to *be* elegant and powerful, which in hindsight get crystallized into 'rules'. "I'd sing to everyone, but he'd laugh." Proper, but awkward! As someone pursuing Aboriginal writing you may know Amos Tutuola. The first book especially, *The Palm-Wine Drinkard*, has great value as an English peek into African oral traditions. This last recommended to any jmdlers! a great read! English like you never read it, and fantastical fables woven in! How about that! no 'njc' in the heading, but nobody complained! people seem to do so only when they have a personal grouse against someone; otherwise why bother, just scan and delete. Mitchell being quite the verbal one, most of her followers are too. TR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:47:01 -0400 From: Heather Subject: Re: SigMondegreens Favorite Site (SJC) At 09:57 PM 7/10/98 EDT, you wrote: > >But I misheard them as: >It tastes very nice, food of the parking lot " > I think this is going to be the theme at "A day in the Garden" ;-) btw - will there be anyone from jonimitchell.com or the JMDL assigned to take official pictures at this event? Does Wally B. have any suggestions? (lots of get well and perseverance hugs, Wally!) Heather np: Constant Craving - k.d. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:47:28 +0100 From: catman Subject: NJC:Next 17yrs? John brought home a $3500 laptop thingy yesterday(not even program loaded! Just 95 and Office-which I think is outrageous-but work paidd for it) I had 64mbRAM added(so now have 80mbRAM) and a 4.3gb hard drive. Now have 5.5gb. So now we both sit and play with our pc's! next we will be communicating via email!!! So that's how to survive the next 17yrs!!!! colin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:56:54 -0400 From: Heather Subject: Re: NJC:Next 17yrs? At 01:47 PM 7/11/98 +0100, you wrote: > >So now we both sit and play with our pc's! next we will be communicating >via email!!! > colin - WOW! Now you can both e-mail each other from clear across the room! ;-) Heather > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 08:56:33 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Things that Joni Said Allison Fernley said: << As for Joni chat, here are my favorite things she said introducing stuff at Pauley, 5/21: >> This got me thinking..... What if we compiled a list (from the tape trees, concerts, etc.) of Joni's explanations of the "inspiration" behind her songs, and/or anecdotal stories about her songs? If someone would be willing to compile it, maybe Les would be willing to put it all up as a page on the JMDL web site. I, for one, would find it facinating to have it all these wonderful stories transcribed in one place! If one person was in charge of this project, someone could say to him/her, I'll type up the intruductions from tape tree #3," etc. so we wouldn't duplicate the effort. What do you think? Hugs, Ashara {who thought maybe she could get in one last post before she leaves for Italy this evening, and who/whom is *definitely* not taking up Brian's generous offer to subit a 250 word essay for correction} ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 10:33:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Subject: re: Grammar thread >Robert Holliston wrote: >Hey everyone, >I've sure been enjoying this here grammar thread! >Suze: Is school ever really out? My dear Roberto, I spend ten months a year correcting abusive grammar. For me, right now, school is out! The mere reminder of anything academia during my summer vacation is like chewing tin foil with a mouth full of fillings. The rest of you have fun splitting infinitives. I am going out on my boat to soak up too many harmful UV rays while drinking adult beverages from a bottle. NP: Theme from the Love Boat *And yes, some of us have compulsive "make 'em laugh" disorder. I am in therapy with Dr. Sid Mondegreen to correct this annoying behavior. Sue Cameron (Suze) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:48:46 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: Re: corrective syndrome Deb Messling wrote: > > Well, I would defend the practice of correcting misinformation, just > because this list is archived, and indexed by search engines, and > some poor soul may use our discussions to find information on Joni - > let's give them a fighting chance that what they find is correct! That would probably be more appropriate for the 2 websites that contain the "facts" of Joni's life and times, discography, and articles where she is quoted, etc. While I enjoy the click sites and features here such as "Today in Joni History", we are comprised of an exchange I compare to a giant cocktail party or playground, where uninhibited posts occur that are more opinionated in nature, projective in descriptions, and just all round entertaining and amusing. Sometimes there is an occasional scoop or helpful announcement as to an opportunity for attendance to shows and such. As there are those 2 other places to seek out the facts, I don't think the discussion list could realistically be viewed as you say. And as the unmoderated jmdl here would most likely be reduced to it's lowest common denominator (with 400+ opinions of what that means!) containing the beautiful hodge podge of posting subjects and personalities shining through, I say... Pass me another margarita, and let's go over to the playground swing. Marsha, compulsive spitter on my screen with laughter, compulsive attender of Joni public appearances compulsive Joni fan nigh on 25 years compulsive meet-n-greeter of you'ins outside this here 'lil box ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:58:58 -0400 From: Marsha Subject: (NJC)Re: corrective syndrome (NJC) Marsha wrote: > Pass me another margarita, and let's go over to the playground swing. Oh yeah, and help me find that Fred Simon over there by the bushes, so I can run up and tell him that I think he spelled "Chachi" wrong! ;-D Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:15:47 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: corrective syndrome > Deb Messling wrote: > > > > Well, I would defend the practice of correcting misinformation, just > That would probably be more appropriate for the 2 websites that > contain the "facts" of Joni's life and times, Yes, that would be more appropriate, but that's not how people work. No matter how we try to drum critical thinking into their heads, they latch onto anything they find with a search engine, for the most part. Believe me, I see it every day. > I don't think the discussion list could realistically be viewed as > you say. Yes it could! Nobody has the final word on how to define this list. Some use it primarily as a source of information, not community. In any case, I don't see anything wrong with correcting an error of fact. If someone says "Court and Spark was produced by Tom Scott," or "If you really love Joni's piano, buy Hejira," then for the sake of newbies, lurkers and search engine trollers, I wouldn't want those statements to stand uncorrected, as long as the correction doesn't start off with "hey stupid." Fred Walzenfree ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:39:11 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Donovan (NJC) Deb Messling wrote ... >________________________________________________________________ >Guilty pleasure time. How much flak will I catch for admitting >I'm looking forward to Donovan? He defined my summer-camp days. >________________________________________________________________ Deb, you won't get any flak from me. Guilty Pleasure? Why? pay NO attention to those 'nattering nabobs of negativity' From: DONOVAN From acoustic folk to psychedelic pioneer, Donovan could sing both hard rock and gentler flowery poetry. Wrongly dubbed the 'British Bob Dylan' by people who should've known better - Donovan was indeed influenced by Dylan, but then again both owed a great debt to Woody Guthrie. ________________________________________________________________________ From: All-Music Guide Donovan, (aka) Donovan Leitch Born Feb. 10, 1946 in Glasgow, Scotland Styles ~ Singer-Songwriter, British Invasion, Psychedelic, Folk-Rock, British Folk, Instruments Guitar, Harmonica, Vocals When Donovan first appeared on the British pop scene in the mid-'60s, he was touted as the British Invasion's answer to Bob Dylan. The unfortunate comparison led to a battle of the bands of sorts, immortalized in the Dylan documentary Don't Look Back, where Dylan shot down one of Donovan's pretty acoustic ditties with "It's All over Now, Baby Blue." All of which has cast a harsher light on Donovan's early work than it merits. Certainly he wasn't as deep as Dylan, but the acoustic tracks he recorded in the mid-'60s, including the British hits "Catch the Wind" and "Colours," were affecting, thoughtful, and tuneful, especially considering he was still in his teens at the time. In late 1965, Donovan hooked up with manager Allen Klein and a new producer, Mickie Most (who also worked with the Animals, Herman's Hermits, and Lulu), who steered the young singer away from acoustic folk and into psychedelic pop. His more excessively cosmic lyrics haven't worn well, but in general the combination was quite successful, with seductive and ornate arrangements backing Donovan's gentle musings, which could be more humorous and biting than he's been given credit for. Between 1965 and 1969, he scored a series of memorable hits, including "Sunshine Superman," "Mellow Yellow" (containing a Paul McCartney cameo), "Hurdy Gurdy Man" (with Jeff Beck), and "Atlantis." His initial pair of psychedelic albums, Sunshine Superman and Mellow Yellow, were quite strong, but after a while his full-length efforts began to sound unduly repetitive and overly florid. By the early '70s, Donovan had begun to fade and struggle for relevancy, although he's been an active performer since, and has periodically mounted comebacks, most recently with the Rick Rubin-produced 1996 album, Sutras. * Rick Clark & Richie Unterberger, All-Music Guide "Happiness runs in a circular motion" - ------- simon - ------- NP: DONOVAN ~ Troubarour, The Definitive Collection 1964-1976 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:25:43 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: pachyderm (jc) From: trxschwa Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:37:18 -0400 lori wrote >The elephantine reference is blatantly obvious -- and brilliant. i actually felt it was a sour note in a wonderful song, for many years, but cul and lori have given me the magic. that lyric is beautifully in synch with the tone of the album: sometimes amused, deeply observant, attempting (and failing) distance. her take in coyote is very similar. and thanks, don, for the reminder of how much the rhythm of that line adds. i was a little hesitant to post "duh, it's a phallic reference', but you can't talk about joni's music without talking about sex. a couple of months back, we had a discussion about 'the goat dance' (is it a metaphor, what did she mean?) and i somewhat shyly posted 'gee, i thought it meant sex." (i am shy, once in a while.) one lister (pearl?) went out for dinner at a greek restaurant and nearly got thrown out of the place after asking the owner about it. we were howling with laughter. btw, 'goat dance' is a metaphor for, not just sex, but wild-ass-crazy sex. patrick np - glass - low symphony ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:51:13 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: (NJC)Re: corrective syndrome (NJC) In a message dated 7/11/98 11:01:52 AM, docnurse@VoyagerOnline.net wrote: >Oh yeah, and help me find that Fred Simon over there by the >bushes, so I can run up and tell him that I think he spelled >"Chachi" wrong! ;-D I did? That's always possible. How is it spelled? And I even did a web search to see how it was spelled, and "Chachi" came up several times. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:49:09 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Donovan (NJC) Before there was Joni (at least in my consciousness) there was Donovan as my favorite poet and balladeer for images of seashores, seagulls, and enchanted gypsies. Songs like "Universal Soldier" and "Ballad of a Crystal Man" probably helped to provoke comparisons to the early Dylan. Forgive me for the comparison, but I sense a bit of Donovan influence in a some of Joni's early lyrics and also in the music and vocals of Nick Drake (listen to Donovan's song "Sun"). Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:03:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug McCallister Subject: Joni at Studio 54 I have just re subscribed to the list after an 18 month absence. Though I was an avid reader of the postings way back then I just needed a little break. I never took the opportunity to post anything then. This is my first. I wanted to alert the group that the new August issue of Premiere magazine has an article on the making of the movie Studio 54 about that famous/infamous NY hotspot of the late 1970s. The article is interspersed with photographs of the celebrities who made 54 their home away from home. One of the photos (on page 67) is of a young David Geffen and a radiant, but camera wary, Joni. Unfortunately there is no text to accompany the photo. This may already be well known to the group so I apologize if I am bringing up old, rehashed material. It is a wonderful photograph. Though I should not have been surprised to learn--especially with her connection to David Geffen--that she was there, at least once anyway, with the likes of Liza, Cher, Halston, and Warhol, I was really taken aback. I have hard time jelling the artist with the celebrity Joni. After all these years--30 plus--of following her, I still have a personal mythology about her that keeps coming in contention with "reality." That is not a bad thing at all, it is just more grist for the mill. Cheers! dugg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:33:11 -0400 From: Beverly Subject: Re: pachyderm and goat dancing Patrick wrote: > 'gee, i thought it meant sex." (i am shy, once in a while.) one > lister (pearl?) went out for dinner at a greek restaurant and nearly > got thrown out of the place after > asking the owner about it. we were howling with laughter. Actually, it was I, not Pearl, who still gets dirty looks from Andreas, the owner of Greek restaurant in question. We went there just last night, and he still sometimes gives me the "roll of the eyes" which I now know to be his way of reminding me of my semantic misstep > btw, 'goat dance' is a metaphor for, not just sex, but wild-ass-crazy > sex. That's what Andreas implied when he almost booted me out last summer. btw, when having dinner at Cyprianna Cafe last night, Andreas' wife told us that when she first met him, she thought he was a pimp, because of his style of dress, "nasty flashing eyes," and his "wild Greek dancing style." Me thinks he protests too much.. Bev, not Pearl P.S. I always thought that the "boom-boom pachyderm" lyric had something to do with a drummer (skins) who she was sweet on at the time. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:44:56 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: pachyderm and goat dancing Bev, not Pearl wrote: > P.S. I always thought that the "boom-boom pachyderm" lyric had > something to do with a drummer (skins) who she was sweet on at the time. Good supposition. I think it could be a double entendre relating to John Guerin. Burn me at the stake, but "Blue Motel Room" is my favorite song on the album. I like it because it conveys a sense of humor and hopeful expectation in Joni after the long hejira. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:54:04 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Before The Goldrush while in Vancover BC this past may, Wally and i purchased copies of a recent Canadian book with 'Joni' content, at the local Virgin Megastore. BEFORE THE GOLDRUSH: Flashbacks To The Dawn Of The Canadian Sound by Nicholas Jennings (c) 1997 ISBN: 0-670-87381-0 (hardcover ~ $32.00) ____________________ you won't find this book listed (or available) at . a search at their website yielded 'no results' found. Barnes & Noble was unable to locate a listing for this book. they checked Books-In-Print, Authors-In-Print, and also searched using the ISBN number. However, not to worry. a little further digging yielded the following: ALBERT BRITNELL BOOK SHOP Toronto, Ontario (800) 387-1417 they DO have 2-copies in stock *and* will re-order as necessary. other Canadian book sellers should also be able to obtain copies. a Paperback edition is scheduled for sept. '98 ISBN #0140-263-56X ~ $16.99 ___________________________ From the Book Jacket: Ian & Sylvia. The Band. Gordon Lightfoot. Steppenwolf. Joni Mitchell. The Guess Who. Ronnie Hawkins. Murray McLauchlan. Lighthouse. Bruce Cockburn. Neil Young. Some of the most enduring pop sounds ever to grace the airwaves were created by these and other talented Canadians during the bohemian sixties. BEFORE THE GOLDRUSH follows the exploits of a generation of musicians from Vancover to Halifax, kids who started out playing high-school dances and local coffee houses and who were drawn, one by one, to the musical mecca of Toronto's Yorkville district. Like Haight-Ashbury and Greenwich Village, Yorkville was a haven for free love and cheap drugs, as well as the birthplace of some fabulous music. It's where west coast cowboy Ian Tyson met up with a small-town Ontario singer Sylvia Fricker; where a pregnant art school dropout named Joni Anderson settled after travelling east from Saskatchewan for the Mariposa Festival; where atists mingled with hippies and bikers, and a generation of Canadians were turned on to a homegrown beat. While most of the successful musicians of the era earned their success the old fashioned way -- through hard work, creative passion and a good measure of serendipity -- others sought stardom by wearing Beatle wigs and adopting British-sounding names, and some rode the steep trajectory to fame only to suffer a rapid drug-induced demise. BEFORE THE GOLDRUSH offers a highly anecdotal look at the musical breeding ground that was Canada in the sixties, tracing the arrtistic cross-fertilization that spawned such legendary collaborations as The Lovin' Spoonful, the Mamas & the Papas, and Blood, Sweat & Tears, as well as equally talented but now forgotten bands like The Mandala, The Paupers, Kensington Market and the Ugly Ducklings. Based on interviews with more than one hundred musicians, record producers, club owners and groupies, and illustrated with memorabilia from their personal collections, BEFORE THE GOLDRUSH brings the dawn of Canadian pop music to vivid life. With cameo appearances by Maggie and Pierre Trudeau, Peter Gzowski, Moses Znaimer, John Craig Eaton, June Callwood, Clayton Ruby, and others, this is mush more than a chronicle of the music of the times; it's an entertaining trip through an unforgettable era. _______________________________________________________ there's no 'specific' Joni chapter, but there are numerous bits 'n pieces of information spread throughout the book. From the Index: Mitchell Chuck, 83-84, 87, 91-92 Mitchell Joni, 5, 12, 65, 66, 69, 70, 79-80, 83-84, 87, 88, 91-93, 99, 108, 128-30, 140, 141, 142, 159, 160, 164, 165, 176, 177-78, 192-93, 196, 203-4, 210, 213, 219, 222, 235, 239, 240. - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:53:59 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: JT From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" >>Although I like all of his albums, I realize that he has a small >>range of pitch and of volume. He almost never has spoken parts in >>his songs. In short, jt is always vanilla yogurt while Joni has >>different flavors of yogurt. Got to sort of disagree. Joni mines fairly deep mines from all over the globe, James mines one mine that goes all the way through the globe. This is an over simplification to be sure, but you get my idea. There is infinite range and variety in his one song. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:05:26 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Grammar (NJC) Although I love competent and virtuoso use of language, I agree that as long as communication is achieved grammer doesn't really matter. And also agree that correcting others' grammar is rude. BUT ... several things really stick in my craw: 1) The currently epidemic misuse of apostrophes. It seems now that nearly half the plural forms I see have apostrophes in them ("apostrophe's" in them). I'm perplexed. I can understand the confusion with it's (it is) and its (possessive form of "it"), but why this? I have even seen "Nazi'z" used to mean the plural of "Nazi" ... go figure! 2) Confusion between "there," "their," and "they're." 3) Confusion between "hone" and "home" ... as in "hone in on something." 4) Not really grammar, but this is the thing that really will soon send me to the farm: the new millennium does not begin until January 1, 2001. If I see one more reference to the millennium ending on December 31, 1999 I'll plotz. End of rant ... we now return to our regularly scheduled programming. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:17:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Subject: Donovan May I quote my favorite Donovan lyric: Intergalactic Laxative Oh the intergalactic laxity will get you from here to there Relieve you and believe me without a worry or care If shitting is your problem when your out there in the stars Well the intergalactic laxity will get you from here to Mars. You gotta love this guy! Makes going to the Garden even more fun. Will you all join me in requesting this song? NP: Bare Naked Ladies - Shoe Box Sue Cameron (Suze) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:17:05 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Grammar (NJC) Fred and others wrote: > Although I love competent and virtuoso use of language, I agree that as long > as communication is achieved grammer doesn't really matter. And also agree > that correcting others' grammar is rude. It's not only rude - it tends to cause the person being corrected to feel inhibited and clam up, thus impeding or stopping communication, which was the whole point to begin with. (oops, I "dangled" some things here!) btw, Fred - did you know that the scorned Nicolette used to love Chachi (Scott Baio)? Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:53:22 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Grammar (NJC) FredNow@aol.com wrote: > 4) Not really grammar, but this is the thing that really will soon send me to > the farm: the new millennium does not begin until January 1, 2001. If I see > one more reference to the millennium ending on December 31, 1999 I'll plotz. I used to think that too. However, I am now in my 40th year. When my 40th birthday arrives I will be at the end of my 4oth year and beginning my 41st.So on dec 31st 1999, the 2,000th year will come to an end, and the 2001st year will start. new Year's Eve 2001 will be the end of the 1st year of the millenium. Jesus was not 1 year old till a year after his birth, so Jan1st 2000 will mean he would have been 2000yrs old, not 1999yrs old. bw colin > > > End of rant ... we now return to our regularly scheduled programming. > > -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:05:00 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: NJC: Harvey Milk I was flipping around the Independent Channel and caught a biography on Harvey Milk. Great stuff not the picture you were given in middle class Orange County at that time. Peace, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:35:41 EDT From: WombQueen@aol.com Subject: Re: pachyderm and goat dancing In a message dated 98-07-11 15:53:00 EDT, Kakki writes: << Burn me at the stake, but "Blue Motel Room" is my favorite song on the album. I like it because it conveys a sense of humor and hopeful expectation in Joni after the long hejira. Kakki >> Yes! Make it a group burning. The first time I ever listened to 'Hejira' (the album, not the song) "Blue Motel Room" stuck out like a beautifully sore thumb, and it has remained my favorite off that album ever since, despite the fact that I have listened to it many times and have come to love the rest of the songs as well. I love any humor Joni incorporates into her work---she's got a wonderful sense of it. (Karen Mc, care to join us in a little list- member roast?) :) Womby ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:03:26 -0400 From: Beverly Subject: Re: blue motel room - happy/sad - lyrics/music Kakki wrote: > Burn me at the stake, but "Blue Motel Room" is my favorite song on the > album. > I like it because it conveys a sense of humor and hopeful expectation > in Joni > after the long hejira. No stake burning necessary. Although Hejira is one of my favorite albums, I remember when it first came out I thought many of the songs were cut from the same musical cloth, not only thematically, but melodically. Then out of the blue (no pun intended), out popped "Black Crow" and "Blue Motel Room." At the time, I just didn't "get" "Black Crow" (I love it now), but I adored "Blue Motel Room." It was so different from the other songs, melodically, with all those sad, bluesy notes. I didn't know it then, but now that Mark has transcribed "Black Crow," I realize those sad sounding notes were merely a huge deviation in Joni's tunings. All the strings in both songs are tuned to flats (i think). I'd love to take a crack at playing "Blue Motel Room." Mark? Of course, I now hear each song on Hejira as unique and I love them all. But, 'BMR" still stands out for me. To me, it's a mix of both melancholy and optimism - but definitely, conveys a sense of humor. Bev ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:25:27 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: JONI, Judy & Joan Howard Motyl wrote ... > >A friend of mine told me that JM and Joan Baez do not get along--that >they may hate one another. I was surprised to hear this and wondered >why that would be true? What could have happened to have caused a >falling out? > >It also got me thinking about Judy Collins and JM, too. >Do they get along? Did they have a fallout? > >Are all three on speaking terms? Are they friends? >Anyone have any clue? Mark Domyancich writes ... > >When Joni sang on Joan Baez's "Dida," >I figured they got along ever since. Marsha wrote ... > >I have it from a very good source, yes I do, that Joni ADORES Judy. >Of that Baez woman, I do not know. >__________________________________________________________________________ Mark, there are actually two different recordings of 'Dida' by Joan Baez. both include Joni Mitchell on vocals. 1. "GRACIAS A LA VIDA", Joan Baez Canta En Espanol, 1974 ie: "HERE'S TO LIFE", Joan Baez Sings In Spanish 2. "DIAMONDS & RUST" Joan Baez, 1975 Howard, it's my understanding that there was a certain tension between Joan and Joni _at one point in time_ back in the late 1960's. at the time Joan Baez was the reigning queen of folk music, then along comes this 'newcomer', strikingly beautiful, with a portfolio of some of the most exquisite songs ever written by anyone (male OR female). Joan Baez is not a prolific songwriter and hasn't written that many. few of the ones she has written are really all that memorable. professional jealousy? not for me to speculate. even then some critics, writers and fans made unfair comparisons between the 'newcomer' and the older 'established' performer. always to the detriment of one or the other. i don't remember all the specifics but there was an incident at the Newport Folk Festival ('67 or '68) that involved 'scheduling' (who played when). apparently Joan wasn't pleased with the outcome or all the attention Joni was receiving. it's often the case that some momentary slight or a case of hurt feelings is mentioned in some book or comes up in an interview recorded for posterity. as part of the recorded history these incidents are usually seen *out of context* and often given a significance they don't deserve. it's really strange the way some people always seem to WANT to believe the worst. they almost take a perverse pleasure in it. NO! i don't mean Howard, Mark and Marsha. in fact Marsha IS correct. there's a lot of love and mutual admiration between Joni and Judy Collins. FROM JMDL Digest: Vol. #2 / #469 Dec. 30, 1997 Subject: An Ardent Fan >in Dec '97 Jerry Notaro wrote, quoting Judy Collins ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >"I had begun to hear of Joni Mitchell by then. She had a good following >in the Village and in Canada and in many cities in the States. She didn't >have a recording contract at the time, and one night one of her >**ardent fans** called me up at three in the morning and had her play me >Both Sides Now. I cried over its beauty and luminous lyric strength. I >said I had to record it, she said she wanted me to, as she didn't have a >contract at the time, and was eager for her songs to get out in the public. >I recorded Wildflowers that summer in California, orchestrated by >Josh Rifkin. Josh did a fine job and was responsible for the distinctive >sound of the harpsichord on Both Sides Now. Wildflowers was a totally >orchestrated album, and Both Sides Now became a top ten hit. >__________________________________________________________________________ > >this ardent fan was Tom Rush and YES! he did put Joni on the >telephone at 3:00 AM and have her sing "Both Sides, Now" for >Judy Collins. the rest as they say ... > >i seem to recall that "Both Sides, Now" actually reached #1 on the charts. later Joni included her painting of Judy Collins on the inside cover of "For The Roses". although the painting was not identified at the time, it was later included in the book "STARART" with the following caption: "Judy Collins In The Dressing Room" 1969, felt pen, 10 1/2" x 14" Joni Mitchell's first 'serious' earnings were the royalties earned from the Judy Collins album "WILDFLOWERS" (1967), which included "Michael From Mountains" as the opening song on side 1 and "Both Sides, Now" as the opening song on side 2. "WILDFLOWERS" also included 3-songs by Leonard Cohen. Judy Collins was one of Cohen's earliest supporters having already recorded "Suzanne" on her previous album "IN MY LIFE" (1966), which also included one of Donovan's earliest ~ best songs "Sunny Goode Street" as well as Randy Newman's "I Think It's Going To Rain Today". "Broken windows and empty hallways A pale dead moon in a sky streaked with gray Human kindness is overflowing And I Think It's Going To Rain Today" one of my fondest 'concert' memories is of a Judy Collins show at the Auditorium Theater in Chicago, dec '66. - ------- simon - ------- NP: BLUE ~ HDCD Re-issue. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:25:48 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: BLUE ~ HDCD Reissue & Faq the HDCD re-issue of "BLUE" is now available. i picked it up a few days ago at Tower Records (nanuet, ny) where it was on sale for $11.99 with the previous non-HDCD release @ $9.99 NOTE: this CD does *not* have the little [HDCD] box on the back insert. it also doesn't have HDCD printed on the disc itself. it IS easily identified by the white, circular decal applied *over* the shrink-wrapping. once the cellophane is removed ... there's no way to tell. the white decal has the following info: Digitally remastered with High Definition Compatible Didigal HDCD contains complete full color original art this is the same decal that's also used on the Elektra/Asylum HDCD re-issues, although some of those are Red. how does it sound? well it IS a clear, OBVIOUS sonic improvement over the previous (absolutely) horrid Reprise CD of Blue. this new HDCD re-issue is *almost* as good as the Analog Vinyl LP. almost, but not quite. - ------- simon - ------- HDCD ~ Frequently Asked Questions: Q: What is HDCD? A: The HDCD (High Definition Compatible Digital) Process is a sophisticated encode/decode system for more accurate recording and reproduction of digital recordings. The benefits of HDCD include more dynamic range, a more focused soundstage, and more natural musical timbre (i.e. cymbals sound like shimmering brass and not hissing tin). Q: Can I listen to HDCD encoded CDs on any CD player? A: Yes. HDCD is the choice of top artists and producers because it produces the best sounding CDs when played on anything from a boom-box to high-end system. However, if you listen to an HDCD encoded recording on an HDCD player, you'll be amazed at what you hear. And, an HDCD player will also improve the sound of your entire collection of CDs. Q: How does a CD player become an HDCD-equipped CD player? A: Consumer electronics manufacturers use the Pacific Microsonics' PMD-100 HDCD Process Decoder Chip to add HDCD decoding. The PMD-100 is a 0.6 micron ASIC which performs both HDCD decoding and digital filtering. Pacific Microsonics also licenses HDCD code for DSP applications and custom integrated circuits. Virtually every major high-end CD player has HDCD decoding. In 1998, HDCD decoding will be offered in A/V receivers, DVD players, and lower priced CD players. Q: Why does the HDCD decoder chip in CD players improve the sound of all CDs? A: Every CD player has a digital filter which is an integral part of its sound reproduction electronics. In addition to HDCD decoding, the decoder chip also performs digital filtering for all CDs. When a standard CD is played on an HDCD-equipped player, it receives the benefit of the superb filtering inside the HDCD decoder chip. Perhaps the best testimonial to t he quality of the HDCD digital filter is that over 30 HDCD players were available in retail stores nearly a year before the first professional HDCD Processors were shipped to recordings studios. Q: How do CDs become HDCD? A: Mastering engineers use Pacific Microsonics' professional Model One HDCD Processor to produce HDCD recordings. The HDCD Processor is a two channel A/D and D/A converter, and digital processor with over 200 MIPs of computing power. Q: How can I identify an HDCD encoded CD? A: The HDCD logo appears on the back of the CD artwork and CD itself. Also, an HDCD-equipped player has an HDCD indicator light which automatically lights when an HDCD encoded disc is played. Q: Where can I buy HDCD encoded CDs? A: All CD retail stores stock HDCD recordings. Pacific Microsonics publishes a list of HDCD encoded recordings on this web site which you can print and take to the store. If you would like a printed catalog of HDCD recordings please e-mail us with your postal address. Q: What else would you like to know? A: Many of the topics discussed in this FAQ are presented in greater detail through the different pages of our site. If we have not provided enough detail about any questions you may have, please e-mail us and we will be happy to respond. >__________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:26:28 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Influential Recording Artist(s) Kai Wong writes ... >_____________________________________________________________________ >From a day in the garden website. This drives me crazy, why do they >insist on calling joni the most influential FEMALE recording artist, >nobody ever calls Dylan the most influential male artist. Does this >imply that female artists are inherently inferior? >_____________________________________________________________________ No! but many people read it that way. it's worth noting that most critics and reviewers are men. she IS *the* most Influential female recording artist, as well as one of the most influential recording artists ~ PERIOD! some people like to seperate things. this from that ~ rock from pop from folk ~ male from female. "It's just a borderline" ... pay it no mind. ON THE OTHER HAND however we shouldn't forget Laura Nyro http://LauraNyro.net/ http://www.lauranyro.com/ FWIW Laura Nyro "More than a New Discovery" Verve Folkways released ~ dec. 1966 This unknown eighteen-year-old from the Bronx makes her recording debut here. The songs reveal an incredibly mature woman of extraordinary vocal range and musical expression. With a sense of metropolitan savvy, Nyro blends joyous, street-smart pop tunes with dark, moody and contemplative ballads reminiscent of the song stylings of Billie Holliday. This music shows a deep sense of compassion and understanding about humanity, and a woman possessing wisdom decades beyond her years. Collector's note: This album, originally released in late 1966 as "More Than A New Discovery", was reissued twice after Laura had gained considerable recognition as a recording artist for Columbia: first in 1969 on Verve Forecast, under the title "Laura Nyro", and then again in 1973 on Columbia, under the title "The First Songs." On both reissues, the songs were arranged in a different order from the original album, and this new song order eventually became the "recognized" version of the album. Both the original and revised order of the songs are listed below. Original song order of "More than a New Discovery": Side One 1. Goodbye Joe 2. Billy's Blues 3. And When I Die 4. Stoney End 5. Lazy Susan 6. Hands Off the Man (later re-titled "Flim Flam Man") Side Two 1. Wedding Bell Blues 2. Buy and Sell 3. He's a Runner 4. Blowin' Away 5. I Never Meant to Hurt You 6. California Shoeshine Boys Revised song order of both "Laura Nyro" and "The First Songs": Side One 1. Wedding Bell Blues 2. Billy's Blues 3. California Shoeshine Boys 4. Blowin' Away 5. Lazy Susan 6. Goodbye Joe Side Two 1. Flim Flam Man 2. Stoney End 3. I Never Meant to Hurt You 4. He's a Runner 5. Buy and Sell 6. And When I Die ----------------- personally i prefer Laura's original song order. you may want to try programming your CD to play it this way. - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #250 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?