From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #246 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, July 8 1998 Volume 03 : Number 246 The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Three Great Stimulants ["Patricia O'Connor" ] Re: Cowboy heroes (njc) [catman ] Joni's culinary preferences & email@oprah.com [Chilihead2@aol.com] RE: Three Great Stimulants [Mark Domyancich ] Roy & The Sons Of The Pioneers (NJC) [simon@icu.com] Photobeauty Gets Attention [Melinda Everett ] Re: Cowboy heroes (njc) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] CELEBRATION TIME! NJC [Melinda Everett ] Re: Roy & The Sons Of The Pioneers (NJC) [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Fwd: Small World [ORLTed@aol.com] Let me bitch for a moment... [Daniel Parker ] Re: White Hats? (NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] Fwd: singing and grocery shopping to joni [ORLTed@aol.com] Pro-drug Abuse LP?? (NJC) [simon@icu.com] Dylan on PP+M (NJC) [simon@icu.com] Re: Roy & The Sons Of The Pioneers (NJC) [JRMCo1@aol.com] DJRD - Otis & Marlena [Hassan Zubairi ] Solid Love [Alex Neubert ] Re: Fwd: singing and grocery shopping to joni [Jerry Notaro ] Re: NJC Nicolette Sheridan? [Phyliss Ward ] NJC re: Various/Country/Parts of Speech [Don Sloan ] Re: Whooom is you? [Bill Dollinger ] Sanitized Violence (NJC) [simon@icu.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 04:47:09 -0400 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: Three Great Stimulants And to the bitter end Big business bickered And they called for the three great stimulants... Tricks, ruthlessness, blamelessness (Guile and guilelessness?) Great stuff you all: POC Karen wrote: > I've pondered this, because artifice and brutality always made sense to me, > but innocence? Just lately, it came to me that this may be the "innocene is > *not* bliss" take on things. If we bury our heads in the sand, it will go > away. So we bury ourselves in our pleasures, our own situations, etc.??? Cul wrote: >Anyway, I think you [Kakki] said what I would with: " The three stimulants feed upon each >other in an infinite, symbiotic circle. " And Michael Yarbrough's comment is great too: >"...innocence refers to the worship of youth. " >I think she's assessing our sorry state...what really motivates us personally and >culturally, these three things that interact. We are entertained by our " >inventions", we marvel at our capacity to be rough and cruel, and we are sycophants >to our unmolested inner selves. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:16:25 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: White Hats? (NJC) Craig wrote ... >_______________________________________________________________ >Roy died. Bummer. >White Hats used to mean a lot of things. >Mostly people who were willing to do something to help others. > >Peace, Craig >_______________________________________________________________ at least that's the Hollywood MYTH, from the same Hollywood folks who would have you believe the Old West ... was the White West. the TRUE history and photographic record shows us that 25-33% of the cowboys in the Old West were African-American (ie: Black). it's also true that most of the [so-called] cowboy culture was Mexican in origin. the word 'cowboy' itself comes from the Spanish 'vaquero'. then there were the Buffalo Soldiers ... "Though Black soldiers constituted only ten percent of the U.S. Army after the Civil War, they often made up half of the available forces at specific posts west of the Mississippi. Between the years 1866 and 1900, nearly four thousand Black men served in the military in New Mexico Territory alone." anyone interested in more of the *true* story should check out one or more of the following books: 1. THE BLACK WEST: A Documentary & Pictoral History by William Loren Katz 2. BLACK INDIANS: A Hidden Heritage by William Loren Katz 3. BLACK, RED & DEADLY: Black & Indian Gunfighters Of The Indian Territories, by Art Burton 4. RED, WHITE & BLACK: The Peoples Of Early North America by Gary B. Nash 5. THE NEGRO COWBOYS, by Philip Durham & Everett L. Jones 6. BLACK PEOPLE WHO MADE THE OLD WEST by William Loren Katz 7. NEW MEXICO'S BUFALO SOLDIERS 1866-1900 by Monroe Lee Billington 8. THE BUFFALO SOLDIERS: A Narrative History Of The Negro Cavalry In The West, by William H. Leckie there are others, but these will get you started. - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, if it isn't true - it isn't History. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 13:04:45 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: lessons in survival mariana, due to my busy curriculum, I missed your original post, but went back to read it when I saw some of the reactions posted to the list. I'm terribly sorry to hear about how you were treated. You are absolutely right in pointing out that alcohol is no excuse at all for such shockingly rude behavior. Plus, if people behave that way when intoxicated, it is likely that this is a part of their true personality showing up -- "in vino veritas". Griffin has probably been exposed to a lot of bad influence, but in the end, it's his personal resposibility not to yield to it and not to inflict his personal problems upon other people. Your path is running skyhigh above people like that. You should look down upon them like you look down on one of these dirty yellowish city lights when you go to an elevated point at night. It is them who have a problem, certainly not you. You have a tremendous amount of self-esteem, I don't think we have to worry about you getting over this. Nevertheless, you deserve much better. Follow your path and aim for the best and the highest. That's where you belong and what you deserve. Have a terrific summer! Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 12:10:55 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Cowboy heroes (njc) Well it seems I am more confused than I thought. Zorro is a different show. Tonto is a man and with the Lone Ranger? And Roy Rogers and trigger are something else entirely? Who was the guy that wore a a black thing over his eyes? Zorro wore a cape and had a sword, I think that must be right! colin Thomas Ross wrote: > On Wed, 8 Jul 1998, catman wrote: > > > Actually Terry, I didn't even know who he was! i got him mixed up with > > Zorro and his horse, Tonto. > > colin > > Wonderful confusion! The Indian guide Tonto (Spanish for 'foolish') calls > the Lone Ranger "Kemo Sabay", which is a corruption meaning 'he who > doesn't know', or 'ignorant one'! > > N Yorker cartoon, with Tonto and the Ranger in a pickup truck in the > desert: "Try letting clutch out more slowly, Kemo Sabay." > > TR > > > > > TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Am I the only one here who thought Roy Rogers died years ago? > > > > > > Terry > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Daily Affirmations: > > I need not suffer in silence while I can still moan, whimper and > > complain. > > http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk > > > > > > - -- Daily Affirmations: I need not suffer in silence while I can still moan, whimper and complain. http://www.ethericcats.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:21:56 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: Joni's culinary preferences & email@oprah.com Hi Phyliss and the list at large, Phyliss thanks for that last post. Sounds like Joni could be a "fishetarian"? As you suggested, I sent an sent an e-mail to the Oprah show requesting that they have Joni on. If anyone else would like to make a similar suggestion to Oprah the address is email@oprah.com I tried also to send the same request to the Rosie O'Donnell show but couldn't find an e-mail address. Wondering if anyone has heard any more on East Coast Joni shows and when the West coast tapes will be aired? - -Brian PS Has anyone seen Jimmy Buffet yet this summer? I am a parrothead. Not a fanatic but a fan of Mr. Buffet's who by the way is a fan of Joni's and has cited her as an influence on his songwriting. Also going to see the recycled "Boy George". ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:39:04 -0500 From: Mark Domyancich Subject: RE: Three Great Stimulants This is coming from our Joan who called my generation "A bunch of nihilists." Mark, apart of the scapegoat generation >I think innocence refers to the worship of youth. In fact, I think she >says as much in the Morrissey interview, though I'm sure someone >will correct me if I'm wrong... > >--Michael > >NP: Pearl Jam, _Yield_ ____________________________________ | Mark Domyancich | | Harpua@revealed.net | | http://home.revealed.net/Harpua/ | |__________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:53:16 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Roy & The Sons Of The Pioneers (NJC) Maggie McNally wrote re: Roy Rogers >______________________________________________________________________ >He made 87 Westerns in all, and in them, he was the coyboy who fought >fair, never killed the bad guys but only shot the gun out of their >hands and lived to sing about it. >______________________________________________________________________ fair fights only occur in boxing rings, and that's questionable at times. they don't occur in the street and didn't happen in the Old West, despite the Hollywood Myth of Roy's sanitized fantasy westerns. shooting a gun out of someone's hand? ridiculous! any gunslinger who tried ... died pretty damn quick. IMO: a lot of dangerous ideas & attitudes about the ownership and use of handguns ... stems from America's Wild West MYTH and all the fantasy westerns a lot of grew up watching. >____________________________________________________________________ >I did not realize that, "Mr. Rogers was a co-founder of >Sons of the Pioneers, which had a couple of radio hits in the '30s, >'Tumbling Tumbleweeds' and 'Cool Water.'" >____________________________________________________________________ the "Hits" were actually in the 1940's and didn't feature Roy Rogers, although the Sons Of The Pioneers did appear in several RR Films. from the Liner Notes: SONS OF THE PIONEERS "Tumbling Tumbleweeds--The RCA Victor Years, Vol. 1 The Sons of the Pioneers had been Together for almost a dozen years when they began recording for RCA Victor in 1945. Formed in the depths of the depression, the group had prospered by developing a unique vocal blend combined with a seemingly endless flow of outstanding original songs. The Sons of the Pioneers began as a trio in 1933. Roy Rogers, Bob Nolan and Tim Spencer set their sights on creating a distinctive group sound built around songs of the West. Through endless hours of rehersals, their harmonies grew even tighter yet never lost their naturalness. The blend of their voices produced a virile sound that made it seem as if there were more than three voices singing. The Pioneers' phrasing and intonation attained a quality that usually occurs only when members of a family (such as the Mills Brothers) sing, and their harmonies became the standard by which many vocal groups are still being judged. By 1937 the Sons of the Pioneers had grown from three to six members. The heart of the group was the vocal trio of Bob Nolan, Tim Spencer and Lloyd Perryman. (Roy Rogers has left the group to star in his own series of Western films.) "Cool Water" is the most popular nontradional western song ever written. Bob Nolan's lyrics paint an image of the devil tempting a cowboy and his horse with visions of a pool of water as they struggle to cross the desert. His distinctive voice tells the story while Ken Carson sings the haunting refrain "water." Although this song has been recorded countless times, "Cool Water" remains indelibly associated with the Sons of the Pioneers. For many years the Sons of the Pioneers closed their personal appearances with "My Best To You." The song was cowritten by Isham Jones, one of the top bandleaders of the 1920's and 1930's, who also wrote such standards as "It Had To Be You," "Swingin' Down The Lane" and "I'll See You In My Dreams." The Pioneers usually sang the song as "Our Best To You," which is exactly what they always gave their audiences. "Cool Water" ~ recorded aug. 8, 1945 "My Best To You" ~ recorded jan. 27, 1947 - ------- simon - ------- PS. check out, Bob Wills & His Texas Playboys ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:08:47 -0500 From: Melinda Everett Subject: Photobeauty Gets Attention Hi all, I want to share something I read in the newspaper recently. I rarely read the newspaper, but this article caught my eye for some reason. It's about a local 16 year old high school junior whose paintings won a national award and were on display somewhere--I think Washington D.C. Kathy Bates was hosting the exhibit and is buying one of the girl's 2 paintings called "Unititled Nude." The name of the other painting that won is "Photobeauty Gets Attention." So who do you think this 16 year old has been listening to? Oh no--a dangling preposition!--maybe it's better to say: To whom do you think this girl has been listening? This is so cool, because it means that Joni's music and art is inspiring many generations! We already know that, but it's really nice to see random Joni in the world! Take care, Melinda in Austin - -- Support the OLGA Blue Treble Clef Campaign! http://www.olga.net/support.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:00:34 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Cowboy heroes (njc) In a message dated 98-07-08 07:13:49 EDT, hejira@lycosmail.com writes: << Who was the guy that wore a a black thing over his eyes? Zorro wore a cape and had a sword, I think that must be right! >> Both Zorro and the Lone Ranger wore masks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:18:49 -0500 From: Melinda Everett Subject: CELEBRATION TIME! NJC I GOT A JOB!!!!!!!!! - -- Support the OLGA Blue Treble Clef Campaign! http://www.olga.net/support.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:07:36 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Roy & The Sons Of The Pioneers (NJC) In a message dated 98-07-08 08:52:08 EDT, simon@icu.com writes: << fair fights only occur in boxing rings, and that's questionable at times. they don't occur in the street and didn't happen in the Old West, despite the Hollywood Myth of Roy's sanitized fantasy westerns. shooting a gun out of someone's hand? ridiculous! any gunslinger who tried ... died pretty damn quick. >> That's not the point, Simon. Roy used television wisely as a medium to show children that killing was not a solution to every problem. It may have been sanitized, but I think it was effective. It may not have been non-violent, but it showed use of limited violence. "Thou shalt not kill" and all that. Considering how easily it seems the youth of today use guns to kill and be killed, I'd say it's too bad they weren't shown Roy Rogers episodes instead of some of the cartoon violence/killing and "reality" television that has been on TV in more recent years. Roy should be saluted for his message, not ridiculed. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:30:33 EDT From: ORLTed@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Small World This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_899904633_boundary Content-ID: <0_899904633@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-07-08 00:43:47 EDT, pward@lightspeed.net writes: << Apparently Nicolette Sheridan was in the front row on Friday night and was talking so much and not paying attention during the first set that Joni didn't want to go back out! >> Nicolette Sheridan??? Who invited her?? Disgusting behavior!!!!! I hate her. Ted in Orlando : ) - --part0_899904633_boundary Content-ID: <0_899904633@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc02.mail.aol.com (v45.16) with SMTP; Wed, 08 Jul 1998 00:43:47 -0400 Received: from siren.shore.net (siren.shore.net [207.244.124.5]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id AAA24377; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] by siren.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0ytlVa-00069k-00; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:07:06 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id AAA27959; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:06:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id AAA27941 for joni-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [204.216.64.33]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id AAA27937 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightspeed.net (204-216-67-151.lightspeed.net [204.216.67.151]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04498 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35A2EFC1.3A6751A8@lightspeed.net> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 21:04:17 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) To: JMDL Subject: Small World Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: Phyliss Ward Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I can't believe it! I was talking with a friend of mine, Karen, and it turns out that her cousin, Wade, also a friend of mine who (whom?) I haven't seen in a while was with Joni backstage in the green room both nights of the concert tapings!!! I knew he worked for Warner Brothers but who would of thunk! He probably could have gotten all of us in to see her for godsakes! Oh well - I called him tonight and I did get some interesting gossip from him about his time with her... Hey Brian - Regarding food, Joni wanted a tuna melt but all the tuna was gone so she settled for a grilled cheese with fruit on the side. Some of the band were smoking funny cigarrettes right there in the green room. About 10 minutes before the show started, Wade actually had to help Roseanna Arquette and Joni put together that lame introduction she did, including having to scrounge for a pencil and piece of paper. Apparently Nicolette Sheridan was in the front row on Friday night and was talking so much and not paying attention during the first set that Joni didn't want to go back out! Joni only wanted a few special people in the green room and Wade had to fend off one "big wig financeer" after another that kept trying to get in Friday night. Wade had not heard anything of Joni since the 70's (sound familiar) and was really knocked out by her. Some words he used to describe her were dynamic, intense, down to earth, caring. He said she gave him a hug just for bringing her some food and was immediately friendly towards him, no resistance like what he has gotten from other stars. (Apparently he had done the same sort of thing for Sean Connery, Mel Gibson, Donna Summer, etc. etc.) He also said he got the impression that she was highly misunderstood and undergoing some personal struggles right now. :-( Thats all I can remember for now - Can you believe it is such a small world? Phyliss - --part0_899904633_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 09:16:57 -0400 From: Daniel Parker Subject: Let me bitch for a moment... I just need to vent a frustration here for a minute. For as long as I've been a Joni fan, which is admittedly only 2 or 3 years, I've longed and wondered about the possibilities of one day catching a live show. But due to her health problems and her minimalist approach to touring, I figured that the opportunity might never arise. This being the case, I was thrilled to see John Kelly's wonderful "Paved Paradise" last year and was almost contented to hold this memory as the only Joni concert I would ever see. Then this tour rolled around and West Coast shows are clearly out of the question, residing in Queens, NY and all, and I said to myself, "self, seek joy in the happy things she brings you rather than dwelling in what won't ever be." So I played my albums (interspersed with Smashing Pumpkins, Radiohead and Aaron Copland believe it or not--my tastes vary quite oddly), read my favorite website (thanks Wally), and lived on. Then I hear about this Woodstock show, and I'm thrilled about the prospects of a two hour drive (not too bad) up to a wonderful show. But ohhhh how far we've fallen from the garden which once we dreamed about. Commercialism rules the day. And money-mongers make us pay dearly. I realize that the bill is huge--Lou Reed, Joni, and Pete Townsend. You can't ask for much more than that--but it seems that Mr. Ticketmaster wants to rob me of my life precious. $82.50 for a general admission ticket to the show. Now I'm not poor by any means, but $82.50 does represent a sizeable chunk of cash to me and many others--throw in transportation back and forth and food and drink at a 10 hour event, and not only has my dream of seeing Joni come true--but I've paid for it with my rent money. I don't mean to sound cheap but the fact is, commercialization of this once sacred concert area, and corporate greed (sorry, I had to throw that in) has all but robbed me of my opportunity to see an artist who I will adore my life long. I have to now seriously contemplate whether it is worth my hard earned and all to small paycheck to go to this show. - --danny ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 06:51:46 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: White Hats? (NJC) >at least that's the Hollywood MYTH, from the same Hollywood folks >who would have you believe the Old West ... was the White West. > Fair enough ... but in the end, Roy Rogers had absolutely nothing to do with the Old West. An interesting analysis I quite agree with, is that Roy's act was really a thinly veiled morality play served up to an audience of 1950's suburbanites. Easy answers to archetypal questions in half an hour, one of the great building blocks of TV as a medium. Which itself, sounds rather like a definition of mythology, no? I find it unfortunate though, that since the truth tends to scour and clarify, so few take interest in history. I do not count myself among them however, and compliment you on your most excellent bibliography. Take care. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:51:19 EDT From: ORLTed@aol.com Subject: Fwd: singing and grocery shopping to joni This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_899905879_boundary Content-ID: <0_899905879@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-07-07 16:40:15 EDT, dgrowe@hotmail.com writes: << Alex writes ... >what's up with that? >every time i'm at my local publix i'm pleasently surprised to listen to my favorite songs ala muzak. >> At both Albertson's and Publix in Orlando they play Joni (and Carly, etc) all the time...mostly mid-70's vintage stuff. Not muzak either, the real stuff! I'll just push my buggy up and down the aisles singing along (very quietly)...I've heard Joni on their tapes MANY times, and my friend who is pharmacist at Albertson's always teases me about how much they play Joni there... interesting... Ted in Orlando - --part0_899905879_boundary Content-ID: <0_899905879@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay15.mx.aol.com (relay15.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.74]) by air09.mail.aol.com (v45.16) with SMTP; Tue, 07 Jul 1998 16:40:14 -0400 Received: from siren.shore.net (siren.shore.net [207.244.124.5]) by relay15.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id QAA06453; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:39:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] by siren.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0yteWq-0000xP-00; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:39:57 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id QAA09687; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:38:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id QAA09669 for joni-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:38:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f146.hotmail.com [207.82.251.25]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with SMTP id QAA09661 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10056 invoked by uid 0); 7 Jul 1998 20:37:43 -0000 Message-ID: <19980707203743.10055.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.83.139.130 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:37:43 PDT X-Originating-IP: [209.83.139.130] From: "Don Rowe" To: aneubert@swmwas.com Cc: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: singing and grocery shopping to joni Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:37:43 PDT Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: "Don Rowe" Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Alex writes ... >what's up with that? >every time i'm at my local publix i'm pleasently surprised to listen to my favorite songs ala muzak. >oh well... I think this has to do with who's providing DMX access, or "muzak via cable". Since I've heard others mentioning Joni in grocery stores, the next question becomes, "Who's the area cable provider?" Mine in St. Louis, is TCI -- so the smart money says that if you've got TCI, Joni's on their DMX and you get to sing while you shop! Which I hasten to add, is the ONLY good thing about TCI as far as I'm concerned. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --part0_899905879_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:58:22 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Pro-drug Abuse LP?? (NJC) Don Rowe wrote ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >My surfboard beached at a most amusing moral watchdog page ... >www.screenit.com, which has reviewed a small number of albums for content, >to protect little children's virgin ears and malleable minds. Titles on >their list include the wildly amoral "Blue Moon Swamp" by John Fogerty, >Natalie Merchant's "Tiger Lilly" and McCartney's "Flaming Pie" >(probably the worst pro-drug abuse album since Peter Paul and Mary's >"Blowin' in the Wind") >__________________________________________________________________________ Peter Paul and Mary's?? "BLOWIN' IN THE WIND" ever hear of Bob Dylan? "BLOWIN' IN THE WIND" was the opening song on Dylan's 2nd LP "The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan", released on May 27, 1963. "BLOWIN' IN THE WIND" was the last song on Peter Paul & Mary's 3rd LP "In The Wind", released in December 1963. and frankly, i don't understand your _pro-drug abuse album_ comment. not at all. say what? there are no drug references on either of these LP's. do the following song titles sound like drug references? IN THE WIND Very Last Day Hush-A-Bye Long Chain On Rocky Road Tell It On The Mountain Polly Van Stewball All My Trials Don't Think Twice It's Alright Freight Train Quit Your Low Down Ways Blowin' In The Wind BTW: "DON'T THINK TWICE, IT'S ALRIGHT" was the opening song on side 2 of "The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan". "Quit Your Low Down Ways" is an outtake from "Freewheelin". the folks @ say re: "Flaming Pie" >OUR WORD TO PARENTS: > There is absolutely nothing on this release for parents > to be worried about regarding the content. > >ALCOHOL OR DRUG USE > * None. so what gives? am I missing something here? what exactly IS your point? BLOWIN' IN THE WIND (Bob Dylan) M. Witmark & Sons ASCAP How many roads must a man walk down before they call him a man? How many seas must a white dove sail before she sleeps in the sand? How many times must the cannon balls fly before they're forever banned? The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind The answer is blowin' in the wind. How many years must a mountain exist before it is washed to the sea? How many years can some people exist before they're allowed to be free? How many times can a man turn his head and pretend that he just doesn't see? The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind The answer is blowin' in the wind. How many times must a man look up before he can see the sky? How many ears must one man have before he can hear people cry? How many deaths will it take till he knows that too many people have died? The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind The answer is blowin' in the wind. The answer is blowin' in the wind. - ---------------------------------- this song didn't become an anthem of the Civil Rights Movement, 2nd only to "We Shall Overcome", because of some drug? reference. DYLAN said of this song's background: "I still say that some of the biggest criminals are those that turn their heads away when they see wrong and know it's wrong. I'm only 21 years old and i know that there's been too many wars ... You people over 21 should know better. The first way to answer these questions in the song is by asking them. But lots of people have to first find the wind." if I AM missing something here, some needs to clue me in. - ------- simon - ------- PS. i don't care for this *moral watchdog* crap either. seems to me that one of the responsibilities of freedom is the personal use of Critical Thinking, FOR yourself. Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:58:29 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Dylan on PP+M (NJC) Peter, Paul and Mary IN THE WIND First Released: December 1963 ALBUM LINER NOTES (written by Bob Dylan) Snow was piled up the stairs an onto the street that first winter when I laid around New York City It was a different street then- It was a different village- Nobody had nothin- There was nothin t get- Instead a bein drawn for money you were drawn for other people- Everybody used t hang around a heat pipe poundin subterranean coffee house called the Gaslight- It was at that time buried beneath the middle a MacDougal Street- It was a strange place an not out a any schoolbook- More'n seven nites a week the cops and firemen'd storm down the steps handin' out summons for trumped up reasons- More'n five nites a week out a town bullies'd start trouble an everybody from John the owner t Dave the cook t Rod the cash register ringer t Adele the waitress t anybody who was on the stage t just plain friends who were hangin around would have t come up swingin dishes an handles an brooms an chairs an sometimes even swords 'at hung on the wall in order t match the bullies' weight an the bullies was always big bullies- Everybody that hung out at the Gaslight was close- Yuh had t be- In order t keep from going insane and in order t survive- An it can't be denied- It was a hangout- But not like the street corner- Down there we weren't standin lookin out at the world watchin girls-and findin out how they walk- We was lookin at each other ... and findin out about ourselves- It is 'f these times that I remember most sadly- For they're gone- An they'll not never come again- It is 'f these times I think about now- I think back t one a them nites when the doors was locked an maybe thirty or forty people sat as close t the stage as they could- It was another nite past one o'clock an that meant that the tourists on the street coundn't get in- At these hours there was no tellin what was bound t happen- Never never could the greatest prophesizor ever guess it- There was not such a thing as an audience- There was not such a thing as performers- Everybody did somethin- An had something t say about somethin- I remember Hugh who wore different kinda clothes then but still shouted an tongue twisted flowin lines a poetry that anybody who could be struck by the sounds 'f a rock hittin a brick wall could understand- I remember Luke playin his banjo and singin "East Virginia" with a tone as soft as the snow outside an "Mr. Garfield" with a bitin touch as hard as the stovepipe on the inside- An Dave singin "House a the Risin Sun" with his back leaned against the bricks an words runnin out in a lonesome hungry growlin whisper that any girl with her face hid in the dark could understand- Paul then was a guitar player singer comedian- But not the funny ha ha kind- His funnyness could only be defined an described by the word "hip" or "hyp"- A combination a Charlie Chaplin Jonathan Winters and Peter Lorre- Maybe it was that nite that somebody flicked a piece a card- board in fron a the tiny spotlight an he made quick jerky movements on the stage and everybody's eyes was seein first hand a silent movie for real- The bearded villan 'f an out a print picture- There aint room enuff on thepaper t tell about everybody that was there an exactly what they did- Every nite was a true high degree novel- Anyway it was one a these nites when Paul said "Yuh gotta now hear me an Peter an Mary sing" Mary's hair was down almost t her waist then- An Peter's beard was only about half grown- An the Gaslight stage was smaller An the song they sung was younger- But the walls shook An everybody smiled- An everybody felt good- An down there approval didn't come with the clappin a hands at the end 'f the song- It came burstin out anytime any way it felt like burstin out- An they were approved- By the people watchin 'm and by 'mselves- Which really was one- An that's where the beginnin was at- Inside them walls 'f a subterranean world- But it's a concrete kind a beginnin- It's concrete cause it's close- An that feelin aint t be forgotten- Yuh carry it with yuh- It's a feelin that's born an not bought An it can't be taught- An by livin with it yuh learn t see and know it in other people- T sing an speak as one yuh gotta think as one- An yuh gotta believe as one- An yuh gotta feel as one- An Peter an Paul and Mary're now carryin the feelin that was inside them walls up the steps t the whole outside world- The rooster never crowed on MacDougal Street- There was no dew on the grass an the sun never came shinin over the mountain- There was nothin t tell yuh it was morning cept the pins and needles feelin in yer arms an legs from stayin up all nite- But all 'f us find our way a knowing when it's mornin- An once yuh know the feelin it don't change- It can only grow- For Peter's grown An Paul's grown An Mary's grown An the times've grown (c) 1963 Bob Dylan four years later ... Joni Mitchell turns up. - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:58:16 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Roy & The Sons Of The Pioneers (NJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << Roy used television wisely as a medium to show children that killing was not a solution to every problem. It may have been sanitized, but I think it was effective. It may not have been non-violent, but it showed use of limited violence. "Thou shalt not kill" and all that. >> Roy's "limited-violence" representation of cowboys has some basis in fact. Quoting from the book "The West" by Geoffrey Ward: "Most cowboys had guns, but rarely used them on the trail. Some outfits made them keep their weapons in the chuck wagon to eliminate any chance of gunplay. Charles Goodnight [famous cowboy head honcho in late 19th century] was more emphatic: 'Before starting on a trail drive, I made it a rule to draw up an article of agreement, setting forth what each man was to do. The main clause stipulated that if one shot another he was to be tried by the outfit and hanged on the spot, if found guilty. I never had a man shot on the trail." - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:47:04 +-100 From: Hassan Zubairi Subject: DJRD - Otis & Marlena Thankyou for all the replies, especially Michael Heath (cul) who started me rethinking re: Otis and Marlena, they have been most eye-opening re that song. I have since come up with an update: 'The Golden Dive (masculine, strong, beautiful, ideal, Aryan(?)), The Fatted Flake' (feminine, empty-headed, salacious) refer quite metaphorically to the Goodlooking and the Trashily Beautiful who are all on display from Marlena's balcony, all burn in their riches (a harrowingly ugly image), while Marlena protects herself from the sun (white as stretcher sheet....under Foster Grants) unlike the meringue fools below. All the time, her chauffeur sits in his room, trying to make his cheap tv work, Joni all the time juxtaposing the images of Marlena (a Madam? perhaps - 'in her bedrooms rented girls') and Otis (probably black - only an assumption, don't kill me) taking the rich/poor, rich/poor image the whole time and undercutting these images with the realism that in the North, the heads of state in the real world are being held captive by foreigners - government's collapse simply ignored by the upper classes whose only vision is of beauty and pleasure and self. When I heard this song it made me laugh (being a Muslim myself) but I knew what she was driving at. It wasn't a criticism of a particular religion, it was an image that was instantly accessible and recognizable as a world image. The song is a criticism of a particular strata of American society. And look at the images she uses. Rococo and puff pastry --excellent. (before anyone says anything, she doesn't use those words but those words are conjured up by her words). DJRD - the album as a whole has provided listeners with the most conversation so far and quoted most from (see Sue McNamara). Not what I would call Classic Joni but her most musically inventive. Also her most philosophically challenging - it's that animal/human/animal theme that HOSL started. Also, on the Three Great Stimulants Joni did say in the Morrisey interview that it was the Innocence of Youth that was being a stimulant. How old men's wives are getting younger and younger, how pop stars and actors are getting younger, how the youth culture of the 60's has grown up with its protagonists and suddenly turning against them. It's no longer about their generation, it's about the young generation being eaten alive by the Establishment, turned into product as opposed to the youth that they actually are.(I'm not going to say Macauley Culkin, because I can't spell it) That's my view anyway. I'm going outside to get some air. JamieJake from London NP: Miss Saigon soundtrack. For work purposes. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 10:10:14 -0400 From: Alex Neubert Subject: Solid Love colin - i thought your email was most inspiring. "Love suffers long-- Love is kind!-- Enduring all things-- Love has no evil in mind" Alex Neubert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 10:42:04 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: Fwd: singing and grocery shopping to joni Hi Ted. I heard a cut from Janis Ian's Hunger yesterday in Kash and Karry and I almost fell in the aisle! Especially since it was my favorite selection from the cd. Jerry np: MOA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 10:50:47 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: Fwd: Small World >At 09:30 AM 7/8/98 EDT, Ted wrote: >>Nicolette Sheridan??? Who invited her?? Disgusting behavior!!!!! I hate >>her. > Ok who is Nicolette Sheridan? Julie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:00:18 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: NJC Nicolette Sheridan? Hi Julie I'm pretty sure that Nicolette used to play a beautiful young vixen on the prime time soap Knott's Landing. She may have also starred in a few TV movies. Anybody else? Phyliss Julie Z. Webb wrote: > >At 09:30 AM 7/8/98 EDT, Ted wrote: > >>Nicolette Sheridan??? Who invited her?? Disgusting behavior!!!!! I hate > >>her. > > Ok who is Nicolette Sheridan? Julie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:02:24 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: NJC re: Various/Country/Parts of Speech Howard Motyl wrote: > 1. Someone last week was talking about Emmylou Harris and I suggested a > listen to "Bluebird". Listen to "Brand New Dance" also. > > 2. Rosanne Cash: "Interiors" and "The Wheel" > > 3. Carlene Carter: "Little Love Letters" rockin' country or > country-tinged rock; one of my fav lines: "You burn me up like a > chicken at a barbecue", "I'm a two-fisted woman looking for a fight, got > a boy on my left and a boy on my right . . . " If you enjoy these ladies (I certainly do), I think you will love Alison Krauss. She and her band, Union Station, do great bluegrass but mostly I listen for that voice... I mean THAT VOICE!!! Those ballads will reach deep down inside of you and pull out the tears. I only recently bought one of her albums after reading a rave review - she played in Bakersfield, a short drive down the mountain from me, and I could kick myself now for missing her. The CD I have is wonderful: "So Long So Wrong". > 4. Can we begin a discussion on the uses of "who" and "whom"? Please? > It drives me crazy. I saw a post that said "with whoever" and it was > like chewing aluminum foil. Use "whom" after a preposition--who is > subjective, whom is objective. Is that so hard? So the phrase above > should read "with whomever". so nice, isn't it? Yes, it *is* nice... and I know I should not have stubbornly refused to learn the parts of speech in HS English! I don't think Howard is quoting from one of my posts, but I do have trouble with that little issue :-). Don ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 01:40:58 +1000 From: Evan and Vanessa Thomson Subject: Joni on Letterman Imagine my delight... it's 12:15a.m and I'm comfortably slouched on the couch contemplating the trash that passes as late night television and whether or not to dye my lustrous locks. I'm channel surfing and happen to flick to Letterman. I'm sorry, but I find this man tedious and flash, just not my style. Who happens to be on... JONI!! This is amazing as I've only seen Letterman thrice, for Tori, Isabella Rossellini and now Joni! So, mesmerized I sat expectantly on the couch, video cued and finger on the record button! At last... I'm surprised at her choice but not disappointed and the one thing that hits me is how 'youthful' she looks! Luminous and ageless; compared to Christine Lahti who's face is lined. So an unexpected and very uplifting treat which compelled me to write and share it with you all. This doesn't happen often... it's enough to make me crack open a case of Victoria Bitter's and celebrate, for although us Australians are alcoholic, pioneer crocodile hunters with a penchant for brawling we're still genteel!! :-) Vanessa. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:38:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Whooom is you? Please remember to list NJC in the subject line when making posts that don't have content relating to Joni. On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Thomas Ross wrote: > you have the advantage of me, sir, in the chewing of aluminum foil. Gotta > try it. . or do I? Could it help my teeth receive radio stations? > > I can be quite the stodge about usage, which of course marches on like it > or no. T H White is the man for prose style. Strunk & White is ok as a > manual, but for lean, beautiful prose in action, check his essays, such as > One Man's Meat, etc. > > Uniquer than most! > > TR > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:45:08 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Sanitized Violence (NJC) Paul I writes ... in response >__________________________________________________________________________ >fair fights only occur in boxing rings, and that's questionable at times. >they don't occur in the street and didn't happen in the Old West, despite >the Hollywood Myth of Roy's sanitized fantasy westerns. > >shooting a gun out of someone's hand? ridiculous! >any gunslinger who tried ... died pretty damn quick. > >>That's not the point, simon. >>Roy used television wisely as a medium to show children that killing was >>not a solution to every problem. It may have been sanitized, but I think >>it was effective. It may not have been non-violent, but it showed use of >>limited violence. "Thou shalt not kill" and all that. Considering how >>easily it seems the youth of today use guns to kill and be killed, I'd say >>it's too bad they weren't shown Roy Rogers episodes instead of some of the >>cartoon violence/killing and "reality" television that has been on TV in >>more recent years. Roy should be saluted for his message, not ridiculed. >>Paul I >__________________________________________________________________________ Paul, your point about *today's cartoon violence/killing* is true. as for "reality" television ... i'll take reality any day over sanitized fantasy violence _as_ a vehicle for teaching lessons to children. violent acts, have consequences. people don't just get shot, lay down quietly or ride off into the sunset. they don't turn up again in next weeks episode. as we all know, there's injury, pain, funerals and grieving relatives. BTW: it's not my intention to single Roy out for sole responsibility. nonetheless, he was a participant. these movies were sanitized and did distort OUR History. as is almost always the case, they didn't tell Herstory at all! i can't salute these movies but "ridicule" wasn't my point either. i think i made an accurate observation or two. personally, i think (one of) the finest TV programs for teaching children was Bill Cosby's cartoon series "Fat Albert". - ------- simon - ------- ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #246 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?