From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #229 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, June 29 1998 Volume 03 : Number 229 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- RE: Joni & The JMDL ["Wally Kairuz" ] NJC-Shawn song / Lilith [MP123A321@aol.com] Alcohol Riots at American universities (NJC) ["Winfried Hühn" ] Re: Why We Choose Between Joni's Different Voices [Linda Brady ] Re: Portable Friends (long WQC) [Marsha Doyle ] venue [Craig Harris ] Re: Why We Choose Between Joni's Different Voices ["Don Rowe" ] Lithos [Steve Dulson ] Re: Lillith Fair 6/27/98 [Melinda Everett ] Talented musicians among us [Marsha Doyle ] HDCD [Jerry Notaro ] Re: So here's to you, may your dreams come true [DKasc13293@aol.com] Jonis Voice/ some perspective [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Alcohol Riots at American universities (NJC) [catman ] Iris Dement [Anne Madden ] Re: Jonis Voice/ some perspective [TerryM2442@aol.com] Women's Rights Movement Celebrates [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] Re: Jonis Voice/ some perspective [Linda Brady ] Jonatha Brooks (njc) [TerryM2442@aol.com] NJC Re: NRA Bullshit/NO NEED FOR THESE POSTS. [Bounced Message Subject: RE: Joni & The JMDL Perhaps a resonable rule of thumb would be this: post what you will, but temper your rhetoric with the knowledge that Joni (the actual, real, feeling person) may read your post. Peace, David David, I scary to think that listers might take your suggestion seriously. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 07:04:06 EDT From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: NJC-Shawn song / Lilith Recently Mariana posted Re: Shawn Colvin: <> The song is Your New Thing from A Few Small Repairs. Sounds like Lilith was quite a line up out there in the West.We are not so lucky in the Southeast to have Sinead playing, nor Shawn. Also, some real silly fools planned Lilith here in late July when the heat is overwhelming. So I'll be taking my daughter to see The Rugrats on tour. Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:38:32 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Alcohol Riots at American universities (NJC) I just turned on CNN and saw a news report about those riots at some American collages and universites caused by alcohol bans on the campuses. Destroying property and violently attacking policemen and other people is a criminal act and needs to be prosecuted, of course. However, I have to say that I'm greatly annoyed by these and other recent results of crusading supermoralists who think they have to inflict their stupid and naive beliefs on everybody in their sphere of influence. This is not the tradition of freedom which has rightly made America the most respected nation in the world. It's the tradition of the Iranian Mullahs and the tradition of failure. Where will it end? Are these the first tell-tale signs of a new universal prohibition? There's no doubt that alcohol can be a dangerous drug when abused. But this is not the point. The point here is the right of adults to decide about their own lifestyle (as long as they just decide about themselves and do not hurt others). At Danish universities there exist so-called "Friday Bars": In nearly every department, people meet before leaving for the weekend, socialize, have a beer from the tap. Some get home buzzed. Very, very few leave drunk. Everybody enjoys these events. Nothing ever happens besides people having a darn good time. Later today, I will go to university here, where they have a big-screen live-broadcast of the soccer World Cup. Together with my friends, I guess I'll have a few beers, and if I have too many, I'll take a taxi back home. I'm an adult, and I've been educated to behave responsibly by my parents and by my school teachers until I became an adult. Like almost everybody, I was misbehaving at (very few) times, and I was held responsible for it. The key to avoid excessive drinking is educating people to be responsible towards themselves and others. This has to start from early on. Colleges and universities are there to convey higher education to adults, not to dig their nose in people's private affairs. If people cannot be educated, they don't belong on a college in the first place. At any rate, it's both possible and sufficient to hold responsible those idiots, who really misbehave. But why on earth punish the vast majority that just wants to have a good time? Winfried, hoping America eventually will resist these recent waves of fundamental conservativism and deceitful bigotry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:14:22 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Alcohol Riots at American universities (NJC) In a message dated 98-06-29 09:39:19 EDT, whuehn@stud.uni-goettingen.de writes: << There's no doubt that alcohol can be a dangerous drug when abused. But this is not the point. The point here is the right of adults to decide about their own lifestyle (as long as they just decide about themselves and do not hurt others). >> Winfried, In most states, the legal age to drink is 21. While I am not certain, I believe the legal age to drink is 18 in many European countries. So while you may talk about the "right of adults to decide," most of the college students in question are not considered "adults" in the eyes of the law, at least in terms of their rights to consume alcoholic beverages. And it is the right of public institutions to restrict their use on public property. The rights of legal-age college students to go to an off-campus bar is not being infringed. They are just being cheap or lazy, I suppose. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 07:36:11 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Why We Choose Between Joni's Different Voices As a substitution player in the discussion of Joni's early vs. middle vs. late voice -- I was thinking over the weekend -- doesn't the first of her albums we fell in love make our minds up for us? I'm talking about more than just "personal favorites" here, I'm talking about a "touchstone" if you will, that one album we love of Joni's that we use to test/measure/assess the quality of others. So if yours happens to be "Song to A Seagull", you're going to have a very different view of the changes in Joni's voice than you would if you used "Blue" or "Wild Things Run Fast". Now I hope I'm not going to get myself in trouble here, but I do see this happening and freely admit to doing it myself. My touchstone album ... "Hejira" -- which works out well since it's close enough to the early work for me to gain a deeper appreciation of the soprano acrobatics, and not too removed from the smokier resonance of the later work. Have at it list! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:38:14 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: out of touch with the breakdown of this century ... If anyone has sent me personal emails within the last two weeks and has not heard a reply from me, please try again. I've been plowing through the dearth of mail for the last few days and have been having a really hard time keeping up. Got my woodstock ticket!! Yippee!! Joe's been calling it VisaStock, which is true because they tried to sell me about 15 different things while I was trying to purchase my ticket (Gas coupons, magazines, official woodstock commemorative poster, Yanni cds, etc!) Take care, Sue PS only kidding about the Yanni cds! :-) ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:43:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: RE: Joni mother-shame fixation On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Al Date wrote: > But you know how it is to be a public figure. > And, in general, Joni stated VERY EARLY ON a > conscious desire for her fans to KNOW HER, to KNOW WHAT THEY > ARE WORSHIPPING. So, having once whetted our appetite for intimate > knowledge, it is not so easy to turn it off. To be honest, I find the discussion of "what did joni mean by" or "who was joni singing about in..." to be boring. If I knew nothing at all about James Taylor, the experience of hearing "See You Sometime" would still be complete. And if I was in total ignorance of the fact that Joni even had a child, it would not change what "Little Green" has offered to my life. This is because I don't value the songs for what they mean to Joni, but how they relate to my own experiences in life. Obsessive attention to the extraneous details of Joni's songs to me indicates that one is probably lacking in insight into his or her own inner life, choosing instead to fixate on those details which can't ever be nailed down. "Till you've been there yourself, You never really know." - -Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:49:11 +0100 From: Linda Brady Subject: Re: Why We Choose Between Joni's Different Voices I think this is absolutely right. It really does depend on when you entered her body of work, so to speak:) The first one I heard was "Don Juan," and it was right before, to me, her voice started going deeper, so I generally prefer the higher stuff. Of course then I got "Blue" and my whole world turned around:) I was gobsmacked; couldn't believe anyone could sing like that. Yum. Linda - ---------- > From: Don Rowe > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Why We Choose Between Joni's Different Voices > Date: 29 June 1998 15:36 > > As a substitution player in the discussion of Joni's early vs. middle > vs. late voice -- I was thinking over the weekend -- doesn't the first > of her albums we fell in love make our minds up for us? > > I'm talking about more than just "personal favorites" here, I'm talking > about a "touchstone" if you will, that one album we love of Joni's that > we use to test/measure/assess the quality of others. So if yours > happens to be "Song to A Seagull", you're going to have a very different > view of the changes in Joni's voice than you would if you used "Blue" or > "Wild Things Run Fast". > > Now I hope I'm not going to get myself in trouble here, but I do see > this happening and freely admit to doing it myself. My touchstone album > ... "Hejira" -- which works out well since it's close enough to the > early work for me to gain a deeper appreciation of the soprano > acrobatics, and not too removed from the smokier resonance of the later > work. > > Have at it list! > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:04:09 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: The Jungle Line Yes, that is the same Rousseau Joni talks about in the Jungle Line. The other book by Julia Cameron is the Artist's Way, which is a program of recovery for blocked artists. I RECOMMEND THIS BOOK HIGHLY!!! Thanks for the tip on her other book which I plan on seeking out today. Take care, Sue (if this is old news and someone else has tipped you off to the Artists Way, forgive me, I'm still on last tuesdays mail!) >Also, If any has been looking for a way to heal the split between your working >everyday life and the artist in you, I recommend the book, The Vein of Gold >by Julia Cameron. She also has just written a new book that deals specifically >with this issue, but I've yet to read it. > ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:13:45 -0400 From: Marsha Doyle Subject: Re: Portable Friends (long WQC) WombQueen@aol.com wrote: > I was telling Roberto that meeting Karen today convinced > me that despite the occasional unrest, this list is a congregation of kindred > souls, all different, all unique, but all common through our appreciation of > Joni. I just wanted to take the time to tell you all how much I appreciate > this list, every single one of you out there who's shown the list a little bit > of yourselves, whether in debate, relating a Joni experience, or just (like > dear Mariana) letting us in for awhile on how life is going in your > world.... Hi, Laura and all, This is that powerful element of getting to finally meet a lister in person and have all your senses be able to react after stumbling deaf, dumb, and blind in this medium. Getting out of this box to confirm and mostly pleasantly surprise your notions about how a jmdl'er is, has been a truly wonderful and novel thing for me to experience this past year. I have gotten to meet over 40 of our listmembers from across the country and Marian from Austria and Winfried from Germany, so the bonds have become so strong! That we have been able to share our love and enthusiasm for Joni and her art has been one of the nicest things that has happened to me in my 44 years. Keeping up with everyone's lives shared has been a delightful and even poignant experience and a great way to find Joni-friends-of-spirit. I hope we can all continue to do this in future gatherings at Joni show venues. I love reading about listers' meetings, and most of all, to be included in our real time, real person gatherings. Marsha, feeling sappy and thinking about a trek to the garden in August ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:31:58 +0200 From: "Winfried Hühn" Subject: Re: Alcohol Riots at American universities (NJC) IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote > Winfried, > In most states, the legal age to drink is 21. While I am not certain, I > believe the legal age to drink is 18 in many European countries. > So while you may talk about the "right of adults to decide," most of the > college students in question are not considered "adults" in the eyes of the > law, at least in terms of their rights to consume alcoholic beverages. And it > is the right of public institutions to restrict their use on public property. > The rights of legal-age college students to go to an off-campus bar is not > being infringed. They are just being cheap or lazy, I suppose. > > Paul I Paul, thank you for your well-written and well-stated response to my post. I totally forgot that the legal age for drinking is 21 in the U.S. (Here, it is 16). There should be legal ages to drink, I agree. You also correctly point out that it is the right of colleges to restrict drinking on their campuses. They could do that here, too, though, even if all students here are above the legal age (glad they don't). I guess I was a bit upset and wrote a bit faster than I could think!!! Nevertheless, I find these restrictions and also the very high legal age for drinking alcohol very questionable, especially so when comparing it with the legal age for driving. A car is one of the most deadly weapons that requires a lot of responsibility to handle it. In the U.S., you can marry someone else and have kids, and you can get killed for your country as a soldier before you're allowed to order a glass of wine when going out with your date. Also, in my opinion, a legal age for drinking is always more or less symbolic and therefore should serve more as a benchmark and as an opportunity for the law enforcement authorites to step in to prevent major abuse. To enforce it in a crack-down style is likely to produce just the opposite effects. And I think this is what sometimes happens in the U.S. When I was an exchange student to the U.S. at the age of 16, I was already used to drinking alcohol at parties or at discos and pubs, all of which are open to people from 16above here. But I had never witnessed such tremendous abuse of alcohol (and other kinds of drugs) before, as it happened at private parties I attended in the U.S. Everybody was underage, but the booze and the drugs were readily available nevertheless. They are available here, too. Furthermore, I don't think US teens are much different from German/European teens. Which leads me to the conclusion, that the real problem is not underage drinking, but rather failure to educate kids to behave responsibly about alcohol and about drugs in general. And the legal age and the tough approach on alcohol is probably making things only worse, because it suggests to society that "the problem is being taken care of " Which is not really the case. It's not the case here either, BTW, but things definitely aren't worse than in the U.S. -- which they should be if one thought a high legal age for drinking was an effective way to prevent alcohol abuse. While I agree with the points you made, I stand by my opinion that colleges and universities shouldn't impose alcohol bans on their campuses. It's an ineffective and unproportional measure. Best wishes, Winfried ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:48:31 -0400 From: Marsha Doyle Subject: Re: So here's to you, may your dreams come true DKasc13293@aol.com wrote: > P.S. Is it just me, or is the word "venue" weird and somewhat clumsy to use? Duane, I LOVE this word...it rhymes with MENU, and well... Marsha, hungry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:02:24 -0700 From: Michael Heath Subject: Re: Why We Choose Between Joni's Different Voices Don Rowe wrote: > As a substitution player in the discussion of Joni's early vs. middle > vs. late voice -- I was thinking over the weekend -- doesn't the first > of her albums we fell in love make our minds up for us? > > I'm talking about more than just "personal favorites" here, I'm talking > about a "touchstone" if you will, that one album we love of Joni's that > we use to test/measure/assess the quality of others. So if yours > happens to be "Song to A Seagull", you're going to have a very different > view of the changes in Joni's voice than you would if you used "Blue" or > "Wild Things Run Fast". > > Now I hope I'm not going to get myself in trouble here, but I do see > this happening and freely admit to doing it myself. My touchstone album > ... "Hejira" -- which works out well since it's close enough to the > early work for me to gain a deeper appreciation of the soprano > acrobatics, and not too removed from the smokier resonance of the later > work. > > Have at it list! > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Well, I can understand what you mean by that...but I have been there listening to her voice for a few years prior to her even releasing an album...the Joni who sang Sistobow Lane and played baritone uke was light years from what she has morphed into, and yet I find myself re-enthralled with each new manner of singing evidenced by each new release since those ancient times. I have to give over to Joni that as an artist, she is probably more aware than I am of the subtleties and rarefications of each new vocal exploration. Sometimes its takes me a few hearings to appreciate where she's taking it, but in the end I always manage to agree with her choices. What has bothered me about these dialogues over this voice or that voice of Joni's is that the agenda some have regarding the effects of tabacco, booze or time. Who cares? That's what I say to all that. I liked her when she was just another silly folksinging girl in the coffee houses and I like her as sultry queen bitch of the deeper feelings. Regardless of the physical changes, to me she has been able to improve her singing at every step. cul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:04:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation Regarding the post about other artists such as Dylan, Morrison, Neil Young and Jackson Browne and songs about parents, I think the question misses the point. How many other artists have songs set in France? Joni has several. Or songs about middle age? Anyway, it is not usually the particular parents who are interesting, but the relationship and feelings between the parent and child. The following come to mind off the top of my head: Jackson Browne - Daddy's Song Carly Simon - The Way I've Always Heard It Should Be Carly Simon - Hello Big Man Carly Simon - Like A River Madonna- Papa Don't Preach Cat Stevens - Father and Son Paul Simon - Loves Me Like A Rock - -Bill ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:24:44 -0700 From: Craig Harris Subject: venue That word always makes me feel better ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:25:46 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Why We Choose Between Joni's Different Voices >Well, I can understand what you mean by that...but I have been there >listening to her voice for a few years prior to her even releasing an >album...the Joni who sang Sistobow Lane and played baritone uke was >light years from what she has morphed into. Lucky you! But I have a feeling that if we polled the list, those familiar with pre-album released Joni would would be in the minority ... with a very envious majority of folks like me left over! >What has bothered me about these dialogues over this voice or that >voice of Joni's is that the agenda some have regarding the effects of >tobacco, booze or time. Who cares? Not me! What gets my blood up is when Joni is, in my opinion, unfairly accused of "singing out of tune", "losing it", "weakening" etc. etc. I'm no accomplished singer, but I do know that the human voice is not a Stradavarius ... it doesn't get better with time. But I agree with you that Joni has adapted brilliantly over the course of her career, and though I never heard her in the coffee houses -- I'm damn sure I would have liked her voice if I had! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:31:19 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: NJC Kate Kate Tarasenko wrote: >I can noodle out "Happy Birthday" on my accordion Oh God! Next we'll be allowing banjo players and bagpipers on the list! Be afraid, be very afraid! (Just KIDDING - welcome, Kate!) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:36:50 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Lithos Maybe Duane or someone could weigh in on this. Karen wrote: >Also, someone told me today that Joni would not have signed >Artist Proof (A/P) if they were posters. Well, remembering my art history classes (which were MANY years ago!), a lithograph was a print made by the artist, using screens, ie silkscreens. To me, the TTT and TI prints are photos of the finished work (including frame!) nicely printed on heavy paper. I treasure my signed TTT print, but I don't think it is technically a lithograph. But I've been wrong before.... ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:59:44 -0500 From: Melinda Everett Subject: Re: Lillith Fair 6/27/98 > "It feels so good to doubt you, I could > even live without you, but not quite..." (what song any shawn fans?) Mariana and all, this is from Shawn's song "(This is Your) New Thing Now." A great song! I love watching Shawn play because she is a bad ass guitarist. Loved the report on Lillith Fair! Take care, Melinda - -- Support the OLGA Blue Treble Clef Campaign! http://www.olga.net/support.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:45:54 -0400 From: Marsha Doyle Subject: Talented musicians among us Steve Dulson wrote: > > Kate Tarasenko wrote: > > >I can noodle out "Happy Birthday" on my accordion > > Oh God! Next we'll be allowing banjo players and bagpipers > on the list! Be afraid, be very afraid! > > (Just KIDDING - welcome, Kate!) Well, Dulson, it will be a cold day in hell before I ever grace you with my Kazoo rendition of "Hejira"! It's your loss... Marsha *:o) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:24:19 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: HDCD There is a very interesting full page column on HDCD on page 96 of the July 1998 issue. Highlighted quote, " I don't think that HCDC is a scam- I just don't think it moves the somic marker ahead any further than the plain-Jane cd." Jerry np: Liz Story - Liz Story Mack the Knife is especially brilliant! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:42:57 EDT From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: So here's to you, may your dreams come true In a message dated 98-06-29 11:56:06 EDT, docnurse@VoyagerOnline.net writes: << Re: So here's to you, may your dreams come true Date: 98-06-29 11:56:06 EDT From: docnurse@VoyagerOnline.net (Marsha Doyle) Reply-to: docnurse@VoyagerOnline.net To: DKasc13293@aol.com DKasc13293@aol.com wrote: > > Does it sound like what it means to you? I always feel awkward when I use it. Yes, it does, Duane. But then as a psychiatric nurse, I have used the word "milieu" for 20 years, and I love the sound of it too. So very french... Marshavue >> Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm obviously in the minority on this important issuuuuuueeeeeeeeeee! Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuane the Decorator! With respect to Steve's post, It's not a lithograph. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:47:40 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Jonis Voice/ some perspective For the life of me I dont know what all this buzz about Jonis voice is. She is over 50 now I believe and there is no doubt that at some point just like eyesight and everything else the capacities and sensetivities change. Ive seen some relate it to smoking and whole threads on her "addiction". Jonis vocal range is consistent with what happens to everyone UNLESS they undergo INTENSIVE exercising of the vocal chords. Joni is an artist first and foremost. I doubt Picasso, Sisley, Renoir, or any other great artist "practiced" paint strokes and I doubt Joni gets up and does her vocal exercises. Joan Baez commented recently in an interview that she now does specific and intensive and extensive exercises to keep her range. Joan B NEVER has had any range other than the one she has always had unlike Joni who has had a number of ranges she has done her songs in including non-melodic phrasing if not scat singing. As this debate/discussion has broken out I happen to have a tape on which I have placed Blue and Turbulent Indigo back to back. Even though they were created many years apart and even though the girlish soprano voice of Blue is followed by the husky rich styling on TI they are totally consistent to the extent that it never occurred to me that there could even be any debate about her "losing" her voice. Not only has she not "lost" it in my opinion she has gained it to the extent that her "new" voice is an incredible turn on. I reflect on seeing people like Sammy Davis Jr. who always had a cigarette and who never had a soprano and his voice still changed. Sinatra was hardly the young frank in his later years either. Nobody is. In the mean time all I can say is I LOVE Jonis voice on whichever album I listen to. However she chooses to sing. The reason is that I love her phrasing. example in the song California off the Blue album. ...."lots of pretty people there readin' Rolling Stone, readin' Vogue..." I mean she just has it in the palm of her hand, the ability to communicate on a level above lyrics. Those who are hung up on the pure soprano thing remind me of those people who tell you that their daughter has "a beautiful voice" and what I hear is a tuney soprano with absolutely zero feeling. A real singer has more than ability, more than range, more than attitude (which is about ALL that many of the new wannabes have), they have the ability to touch without demanding that you listen. You are drawn to them. I have now listened to Blue and TI over 100 times and the songs are still fresh. I hope no one was bored reading this. Its just my 2 cents. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:50:19 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation I was put in mind of: Marvin Gaye - What's Goin On Roger Waters - Mother Freddy Mercury - Bohemian Rhapsody - -Julius bdolling writes: << Anyway, it is not usually the particular parents who are interesting, but the relationship and feelings between the parent and child. The following come to mind off the top of my head: Jackson Browne - Daddy's Song Carly Simon - The Way I've Always Heard It Should Be Carly Simon - Hello Big Man Carly Simon - Like A River Madonna- Papa Don't Preach Cat Stevens - Father and Son Paul Simon - Loves Me Like A Rock -Bill >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:01:01 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Alcohol Riots at American universities (NJC) Winfried, The leagal age for alchohol here in UK is 18. Whilst there is a lot to be said for freedoms in western countries, not all people share them. In USA and UK people of colour do not share the same freedoms-even tho on paper they do-and gay people(men spec.) do not have the same freedoms, not even on paper. America, for all it's freedoms, bans it's citizens from visting certain countries. In the UK there are certain places on cannot visit inside the country. As for USA being the greatest nation, I don't know, but it certainly appears to be the most powerfull, it does what it wants. All nations have good points and bad points. Freedom is great but the more freedom one has the less security one has. Personally I would choose freedom anyday. colin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:04:36 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: Lucinda Williams (NJC) so i am dragging butt today after staying up last night at the Lucinda Williams show at the Birchmere. three encores later, she had to stop playing due to regulations, but i think if she had her way she would have kept going. she played over two hours straight without a break. her voice cracked here and there, but overall was as fabulous as i had expected. i love her voice, i think it is amazing. tomorrow her newest record comes out, "Car Wheels on a Gravel Road." it is her fifth release. there is a long review/interview concerning the new release at an Austin 'what's on' site: http://www.Austin360.com/enter/xl/music/06june/25/25mcl.htm i am so glad i got to hear her once again. she is the type of performer i see whenever i can. her voice is just so incredible, not to mention she writes just about every song she performs, and her band was hot. btw, rolling stone gave the new record 4 and a half stars, calls it a masterpiece. not that i put much weight in their reviews, but it is nice to see her get recognition... sort of... selfishly i love that i can still see her in fairly small venues, the Birchmere sits 500 and she sold out. last year she sold out both nights there. this time she only did the one night. she is playing in NYC tonight (Monday) and tomorrow, and is on Letterman Tuesday night. sherrie stepping off the Lucinda soapbox now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:05:47 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Joni on Fleadh CD? The Fleadh Festival, "a celebration of traditional Irish and American Music," was in the SF Bay Area (San Jose) this weekend. I didn't go, although I would've loved to have seen Tracy Chapman and Sinead O'Conner again. The Chieftans and John Lee Hooker performed, too. Anyway, I was listening to an interview with the show's producer that was broadcast on the radio from the concert venue. He mentioned that Joni had recorded a song this past Saturday night that would be featured on an upcoming Fleadh-produced cd of music by women. Sinead is to be on it also, among others. Did anyone else hear about this and/or know what song she recorded? I seem to recall hearing something about this effort on the list at some point. Thanks. - -Julius ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:09:28 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation bdolling writes: > ><< Anyway, it is not usually the particular parents who are interesting, but >the relationship and feelings between the parent and child. The following >come to mind off the top of my head: > > Jackson Browne - Daddy's Song > Carly Simon - The Way I've Always Heard It Should Be > Carly Simon - Hello Big Man > Carly Simon - Like A River > Madonna- Papa Don't Preach > Cat Stevens - Father and Son > Paul Simon - Loves Me Like A Rock > Julius replies: > >Marvin Gaye - What's Goin On >Roger Waters - Mother >Freddy Mercury - Bohemian Rhapsody > To which I'd like to add: James Taylor -- Mill Worker Eric Clapton -- My Father's Eyes Judy Collins -- The Secret Garden Madonna -- Oh Father Bonnie Raitt -- Nick of Time Prince -- When Doves Cry Sorry Julius, hit that Send button a bit quick. Hope you get this one, too! > > > -Bill >> > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:18:29 -0700 From: Anne Madden Subject: Iris Dement On a couple of members' recommendation (Mark in Seattle & Howard - I think) I bought the Iris Dement "Infamous Angel" CD. I thought her last album "The Way I Should" was great Infamous Angel is every bit as good. I will wear this out if I play it any more. What a wonderful singer this girl is, so talented and as a member mentioned before, she sings straight from the heart. She has a very unique voice, so hard to describe and her lyrics are so simple but so heartfelt it makes you "feel" every word. She reminds me a bit of Joni because some of her songs tend to be a bit wordy. In the world of singers for those that know her, Iris Dement is considered to be a real singer's singer!! Anne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:29:19 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Jonis Voice/ some perspective In a message dated 6/29/98 1:51:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MDESTE1@aol.com writes: << A real singer has more than ability, more than range, more than attitude (which is about ALL that many of the new wannabes have), they have the ability to touch without demanding that you listen. >> MD, Wonderful post and quite thought provoking. I hate to say the ol' "uh huh" I agree, but hell. I do. Who else would you list as someone who is a "real singer"? Terry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:31:35 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: Women's Rights Movement Celebrates June 29, 1998 SENECA FALLS, N.Y. (AP) -- In 1848, a lifetime after Thomas Jefferson declared that ``all men are created equal,'' Elizabeth Cady Stanton uttered her own self-evident truth: ``All men and women are created equal.'' It was an audacious thing to say at the time. Women in America could neither vote nor attend most colleges, and many professions were closed to them. If married, women could not legally own property or retain their own wages. The first Women's Rights Convention had already drawn howls of criticism when Stanton made her bold declaration. It began a crusade for equality between the sexes that carries on even now, as the convention's 150th anniversary is about to be celebrated in splendor. Sesquicentennial concerts, exhibitions, lectures, sports events, worship services and academic workshops are planned here from June 26 through July 19. First lady Hillary Rodham Clinton will speak at the July 16 opening of the Celebrate '98 festival, five days after poet Maya Angelou, astronaut Shannon Lucid and Secretary of State Madeleine Albright are inducted with 18 others into the National Women's Hall of Fame. Up to 50,000 people are expected to descend on this Finger Lakes village of 7,400 to mark the first time in the United States that women gathered formally to discuss their grievances and draw up an agenda for change. A likely crowd-pleaser will be daily dramatizations of the convention on July 19-20, 1848, when Stanton, Lucretia Mott and Frederick Douglass were among 300 people at the birth of an energetic new phase in the women's rights movement. One hundred women and men at the convention signed a Declaration of Sentiments modeled after the 1776 Declaration of Independence. The convention ``is as significant in our history as was the Boston Tea Party,'' said Celebrate '98 organizer Mary Ann Krupsak, who was New York's first female lieutenant governor. ``It paved the way for a revolution in human rights.'' Among the resolutions adopted 150 years ago at the Wesleyan Methodist Chapel was one asserting ``that woman is man's equal, was intended to be so by her Creator, and the highest good of the race demands that she be recognized as much.'' Douglass, the black antislavery leader, helped Stanton push through the most radical plank of all: women's suffrage. For many, that was too much to stomach, and just 68 women and 32 men signed the declaration. The convention roused mostly derogatory comments in the press: ``A woman is a nobody. A wife is everything,'' screeched the Public Ledger and Daily Transcript of Philadelphia. But others found it difficult to repudiate a document couched in terms upon which the Republic was founded. Demanding equal participation in political life ``is but the assertion of a natural right, and as such must be conceded,'' wrote New York Tribune editor Horace Greeley. The convention caught the imagination of the public, instituting a major tilt in society that eventually carried more women into higher education and previously closed careers. Political change came more slowly. It would be 72 years more before the U.S. government granted women the right to vote. And some reforms arrived only in recent decades: the Equal Pay Act of 1963, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act in 1964, the education amendments and equal-credit laws of the 1970s. ``Many of the grievances at the convention are issues that we still are dealing with,'' said Vivien Rose, historian at the Women's Rights National Historical Park, which opened in 1982. For example, this month the Southern Baptist Convention stirred up nationwide discussion by declaring that women should ``submit graciously'' to their husbands, who should provide for, protect and lead the family. Nan Johnson, director of the University of Rochester's Susan B. Anthony center, said the next frontier is financial equality. ``The most important thing for women is economic security,'' she said, notably for those entering old age or for divorced women struggling to raise a family alone. Forwarded to joni@smoe.org by al date ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 19:34:18 +0100 From: Linda Brady Subject: Re: Jonis Voice/ some perspective Wow that's interesting, cuz when I hear stuff from Blue and then TI I find it incredibly jarring. It is *completely* different to me. But, as Jerry Seinfeld says: "Not that there's anything wrong with that! Absolutely nothing!!!" And I'm glad she doesn't sound the same, cuz that would be boring. But I do have my preference for that kinda middle period, around For the Roses and Courrt and Spark; then her voice wasn't soprano-ish, but it wasn't quite as deep as it is now. Someone mentioned about people "accusing" Joni of being off-key. Can we please not use words like "accuse"?? It's not like I said she was involved in the Manson killings, Jee-sus! :) Also, I do believe that Joni's voice has changed *much more* than other artists of her generation. Laura Nyro's voice never deepened like that, nor did Joan Baez's change *as much*, nor has James Taylor's etc. Those people's voices changed minimally because of the ageing process. I think Joni's voice changed because of aging PLUS smoking 100,000 cigarettes a day (Exaggeration. Obviously.) Also, I have no judgement about smoking. I don't care if she snorts coke fifteen times a day. But the fags *have* contributed to the changing of her voice. Again, *Not that there's anything wrong with that!!!* I'm a fan, I swear! But all fans have their fave periods, I suppose. Like with Bob Dylan: it's Blood on the Tracks. His peak, methinks. Elvis Costello: King of America. You just get favorites because of what you're going thru. Anyway, I ramble... Linda - ---------- > From: MDESTE1@aol.com > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Jonis Voice/ some perspective > Date: 29 June 1998 18:47 > > For the life of me I dont know what all this buzz about Jonis voice is. She is > over 50 now I believe and there is no doubt that at some point just like > eyesight and everything else the capacities and sensetivities change. Ive seen > some relate it to smoking and whole threads on her "addiction". Jonis vocal > range is consistent with what happens to everyone UNLESS they undergo > INTENSIVE exercising of the vocal chords. Joni is an artist first and > foremost. I doubt Picasso, Sisley, Renoir, or any other great artist > "practiced" paint strokes and I doubt Joni gets up and does her vocal > exercises. Joan Baez commented recently in an interview that she now does > specific and intensive and extensive exercises to keep her range. Joan B NEVER > has had any range other than the one she has always had unlike Joni who has > had a number of ranges she has done her songs in including non-melodic > phrasing if not scat singing. As this debate/discussion has broken out I > happen to have a tape on which I have placed Blue and Turbulent Indigo back to > back. Even though they were created many years apart and even though the > girlish soprano voice of Blue is followed by the husky rich styling on TI they > are totally consistent to the extent that it never occurred to me that there > could even be any debate about her "losing" her voice. Not only has she not > "lost" it in my opinion she has gained it to the extent that her "new" voice > is an incredible turn on. I reflect on seeing people like Sammy Davis Jr. who > always had a cigarette and who never had a soprano and his voice still > changed. Sinatra was hardly the young frank in his later years either. Nobody > is. In the mean time all I can say is I LOVE Jonis voice on whichever album I > listen to. However she chooses to sing. The reason is that I love her > phrasing. example in the song California off the Blue album. ...."lots of > pretty people there readin' Rolling Stone, readin' Vogue..." I mean she just > has it in the palm of her hand, the ability to communicate on a level above > lyrics. Those who are hung up on the pure soprano thing remind me of those > people who tell you that their daughter has "a beautiful voice" and what I > hear is a tuney soprano with absolutely zero feeling. A real singer has more > than ability, more than range, more than attitude (which is about ALL that > many of the new wannabes have), they have the ability to touch without > demanding that you listen. You are drawn to them. I have now listened to Blue > and TI over 100 times and the songs are still fresh. I hope no one was bored > reading this. Its just my 2 cents. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:36:49 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Jonatha Brooks (njc) It's been a while, but someone on this list raved about Jonatha, so I picked up one of her CD's- 10cent Wings (why is there no cent symbol on my keyboard?) and am totally enjoying it. So, thanks to whomever gave me the tip! Terry NR: The Dance Of Anger ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:13:42 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: NJC Re: NRA Bullshit/NO NEED FOR THESE POSTS. Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:43:03 -0700 From: Scott Price At 04:03 AM 6/28/98 GMT, Kenny Grant wrote: >There are no unacceptable topics on this list, I respectfully disagree with this statement. And I refer to the "rules" of the list which are sent to each person when they initially subsc.ribe: "Welcome to the Joni Mitchell Discussion List - commonly called the JMDL. You are now an official "Jimdle" - a member of the unmoderated discussion of anything and everything related to the life, art, music, and times of Joni Mitchell." Now, what I'm trying to figure out is what the NRA has to do with "the life, art, music, and times of Joni Mitchell." Can anyone find degrees of separation here? :-) Scott, NRA Life Member ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #229 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?