From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #228 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Monday, June 29 1998 Volume 03 : Number 228 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- lithos [Bmcd@aol.com] Mudders and Fawders NJC (was Let the Wind Carry Me) [Robert Glenn Plotner] Re: smoking:what joni said [Marian Russell ] Re: Candle Flame Returned/Joni's Voice [Marian Russell ] Joni Trivia [simon@icu.com] Joni & Cigarettes [Anne Madden ] Lilith: Joni mentors ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Re: Al Date [Diana Duncan ] Tolerance [Ginny McCord ] Joni's voice [Diana Duncan ] Re: smoking:what joni said--(LJC) [Bounced Message ] Re: Let the Wind Carry Me [Bounced Message ] So here's to you, may your dreams come true [DKasc13293@aol.com] Re: So here's to you, may your dreams come true [JRMCo1@aol.com] Re: Re: Americana abroad [FredNow@aol.com] Hejira [Bmcd@aol.com] Bjork does S&L [Sue ] Joni's voice [Sue ] Al's analysis [Bmcd@aol.com] Diana Duncan's Post Dated: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 [Robin Chassé ] Lilith Fair 6/27/98 [Marilune@aol.com] Fwd: Joni's shortest song [Bmcd@aol.com] JC: Woodstock, Les, motives & voices [FredNow@aol.com] Joni & The JMDL [davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:02:33 EDT From: Bmcd@aol.com Subject: lithos Hi lucky litho owners. In response to my post about archival matting/framing Phyllis assured us we own lithos. The process for printing posters and lithos are different. Also, someone told me today that Joni would not have signed Artist Proof (A/P) if they were posters. I have framed a number of pieces with help from my favorite, local "The Great Frame Up". They have taught me alot. I'm with Kakki, et. al. I would never cut out the mat for the signature, so much integrity would be lost. The idea of pulling a less dominant color from the piece for your mat is a well founded one and for my money you want to use a darker mat on the inside and the lighter mat on the, much larger, outside mat (if you double mat). With a piece like this, I'm going minimalist, probably only one mat and an understated metal frame. I recently used a metal frame on a piece but it was not shiny metal, it was a matted metal and didn't stand out as much. (I love it) There was a whole lot of deep blue in this serigraph I matted and I found a nearly identical colored mat for the inside. Then a cream colored mat, a cream found among the many colors of the piece, for the outside mat and the metal frame was the same color as the very thin inner mat, an indescribable indigo that dominated the sky in this piece. I'm sure I have fascinated you all ; ) with this gibbering. Oh also, as said, *be sure* and tell them you want acid free mats and backing. They may carry it, but in my experience they will assume you want a regular mat, etc. I've found myself looking through samples with the framer and I ask if they're acid free, "Oh, you want acid free?" I do love this place, but I'm astounded they don't initiate the question/discussion. You know it's amazing what you'll find works for you with the right framer helping. I've sat and looked at two mats and then turned them around in their inner/outer use and found what I was looking for but just wasn't coming together. There are so many colors and textures to mats and frames, look at as many as you can stand. Don't sell the process short. Nuf said? Snoozing now? P.S. Marsha, I laughed out loud tonight reading about your Marshamouth nickname. Thanks for a belly laugh! Yours in jonispirit, Karen Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:31:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Glenn Plotner Subject: Mudders and Fawders NJC (was Let the Wind Carry Me) >But how many grown artists write as much about >their parents as Joni does? Has anyone even THOUGHT >about the parents >of Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, Jackson >Browne, John Lennon,,.... John Lennon was haunted by the minimal interest and affection of his parents. There are songs like "Mother" and "My Mummy's Dead" from "Plastic Ono Band" which are documents of pain. Mother Mother, you had me but I never had you I wanted you but you didn't want me So I got to tell you Goodbye Goodbye Father, you left me but I never left you I needed you but you didn't need me So I just got to tell you Goodbye Goodbye Children, don't do what I have done I couldn't walk but I tried to run So I got to tell you Goodbye Goodbye Mama don't go Daddy come home (These last two lines are repeated until they reach primal screams. A bit chilling and not Saturday afternoon road music.) He wanted the investment of his parents but never found it. I believe he also referred to Yoko as "Mommy." See also: Neil Young's "Old Man." Robert Glenn Plotner np: Joni Mitchell "Live San Jose 5-19-98" _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 07:46:25 +0200 From: Marian Russell Subject: Re: smoking:what joni said On Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:23:19 cul wrote: > Belaboring a thread: A radio interview with Joni I listened to a > couple months ago delved into the subject of her incessant smoking. > Joni said she felt grounded by it and that she thinks that some people > simply require it to maintain a less than orbital consciousness. She > reported having visited a Hawiian "medicine man" who told her that her > smoking was an effort to keep from being invisible...that her > vibratory rate was so high that needed to consume tabacco to avoid > being transparent in this existence. This is such an ego trip and the biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard! Tobacco is one of the most addictive substances on earth. Of people who become addicted, only about 20 percent ever succeed in quitting. People who quit often start again. Many former smokers live in fear that if they ever smoked even one cigarette it would be all over and they would be smoking regularly again. I was a heavy smoker - up to two packs a day at times - for 15 years! I never thought I could quit and I had all kinds of reasons that I made up why tobacco helped me. Smoking is not good for anyone, period!!! It isn't good for you!!!! I can't believe Joni would buy into such a stupid rationale! If anyone is interested in quitting, please email me privately. I wrote down a method for quitting that gives you permission to smoke while you're quitting while tricking and retraining your subconscious mind. You'll be free from your addiction in three months, more or less depending on your motivation, and it will be painless and fun! Marian Vienna http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/4293 > > > What rationales will we smokers not exploit...i ask you? > > As far as it affecting her voice in a derogatory way, well, where > would > Tom Waits be without all that booze? > > cul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 17:35:01 +0200 From: Marian Russell Subject: Re: Candle Flame Returned/Joni's Voice Joni never sings off key! It has never happened! She uses some unusual harmonies which may sound strange to your ears, but they are never out of tune. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:17:21 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: smoking:what joni said At 07:46 AM 6/28/98 +0200, you wrote: >Tobacco is one of the most addictive substances on earth. Of people who >become addicted, only about 20 percent ever succeed in quitting. People >who quit often start again. Hi everybody, I've been thinking about this smoking thread, and I must tell you that I have never got into the habit of smoking ciggs. But I might be out of my mind to say this, but it's how I feel. I don't care if anyone is a smoker except my immediate family. I think a lot of people partake in various types of addictions, which are probably equally as bad as smoking. Some addictions are more obvious to the public than others. You never hear anyone commenting on Aretha Franklin's increasing obesity or whatshername's pot addiction, or "so and so's" bulimia.....or even java junkies. Maybe their habits aren't affecting their voices but they are still not healthy. Who really knows to what extent Joni's changed voice is due to hormones rather than ciggs. (My Aunt never smoked and as she grew older went from sounding like "Georgianne" from the Mary Tyler Moore Show to Mercede Cambridge.) Im exaggerating a little here. Everybody has their own demons to fight or not fight. Some survive in spite of it. As someone who has taken some years off in the fight of the bulge, I can't tell you what makes me cringe more, than someone who has the gall to "show their concern" for me by offering me "health warning" advice. Trust me, Joni Mitchell knows all the facts and denial issues around smoking, and she's made her decision as to how she wants to live her life. My other Aunt smoked and lived to be 80. -Julie ps. Did anyone catch Iggy Pop on Deep Space Nine, for gawd's sake! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:48:14 -0400 From: simon@icu.com Subject: Joni Trivia RODNEY STEINHOFFEL posted a question ... >__________________________________________________________________________ >just a short post to pose a bit of trivia. >I'll post the answers tomorrow. > >Name the artist and the album that Joni and her latest band >(except Brian Blade) appear on. > >till later, > >Rodney S >__________________________________________________________________________ Shawn Colvin: "Fat City" Rodney, here's a question for you. what was the 'original' title of the song - Marcie? - ------- simon - ------- * Remember, there's a difference between kneeling down and bending over -- FZ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:24:52 -0700 From: Anne Madden Subject: Joni & Cigarettes Just heard on the radio that George Harrison has throat cancer. He quit smoking in '97 when a lump was discovered in his throat which he subsequently had removed. He blames it all on smoking. A sober thought - not to sound preachy but I wish Joni would quit for her sake and her daughter and grandson and us fans! Anne (a tolerant ex-smoker) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:55:24 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Lilith: Joni mentors At 02:45 AM 6/28/98 EDT, Duane wrote: >The proliferation of >Lilith performers who have quoted Joni as an influence, must definately be >having some impact on the younger generation's interest in her work. That is >such a terrific thing for Joni's career. The younger generation is a whole new audience, just >waiting to be exposed to a catalog of excellence. Duane and all, Well then, why isn't Joni performing at a few Lilith Fair events rather than "Mudstock 3?" I don't get it, unless she is making a financial killing at "A Day In The Garden." It seems to me, that her "purchasing power public" for TTT are going to be the Lilith Fair types. I've talked to enough hardcore JM fans that are past that point in their lives where they are willing to withstand the schlumpy ambience of a "Woodstock" venue. So I admit it, Im a creature comforts wimp, so don't let this post detract from anyone's enthusiasm in attending the event in August, but you can count me out. Im gambling to wait to catch Joni perform solo. And I quote the Kingpin's Woodstock 94 experience: >Upon entry Friday evening to the grounds (after a completely mismanaged tour >bus trip from Wash. D.C. courtesy of Target, the dept. store folks--I bought >the package deal), there was no one in sight after we cleared the "security" >entrance and therefore no directions. Both stage areas were filled by the >time 3 of us arrived so we wandered for an hour over a mile away trying to >find a few square feet of uninhabited space to plant our two tents. Again, I >must stress that no one was available for directions or security or anything. >It was OK though, kind of like non-threatening anarchy, since we found a place >and everyone was positive and friendly. >The folks in the tent next to us had somehow managed to get in the following >items past metal detectors (and I was paranoid about a flask of bourbon!!): >metal cooking grill with metal implements and a fully loaded nitrous tank. >I'm not kidding. These guys were huffing nitrous all day and all night. I >know because even during the 2 or 3 hours a night I was able to sleep (due to >constant noise), I kept hearing the very loud sound of discharges from said >container. >After the rain turned everything into a nasty sea of mud on Saturday afternoon >during Henry Rollin's electric set, the toilets could not be cleaned because >the trucks couldn't get through the crowd and muddy terrain. It's not as >though you can leave for a few minutes and find a McDonald's bathroom or a >Holiday Inn for lodging--we were trapped there for 3 days. Let's just say >that misophobes and xenophobes would not have enjoyed this at all. >Sunday offered some respite from the madness as the crowd thinned to 200 or >300 thousand (most of them stoned and openly sharing with no fear of security >infringing--very pleasant) and we were greeted with wonderful sets by Porno >for Pyros, Dylan and Red Hot Chili Peppers. We stood among trash, blankets, >water bottles, pizza boxes and other assorted effects and filth. You couldn't >sit on the ground and you would not have wanted to. >The temperature dropped quite a bit as we headed for the bus area, I lost both >shoes to the mud, and we finally got on board at 4 a.m. Monday morning for the >ride back to DC. - ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:16:36 -0500 From: Diana Duncan Subject: Re: Al Date Al and all,....;-) I just want to go on record here that *I* never said anything derogatory about Al. I just voiced my opinion about trying to understand motives on such a personal subject. Actually, I guess I was wondering if a "fan" means we have to know every intimate detail of JM's life. I want to make sure that I could still be a "fan" without that desire. I was glad to hear from a few "fans" that feel as I do. I find the lack of privacy of those in the public eye uncomfortable. I *did* use the delete button a lot. But I was checking to see if there were any posts that said what I felt about being a fan before I posted it. Anyway, I don't post a lot and have a feeling that I'll never see Joni live. So I really appreciate this list. I have absolutly no one round me that can even tolerate JM's music so knowing that you all are out there helps me understand my adoration. Hey, Al you're ok, I'm ok and We's all are... just.... fine! "They open and close you Then they talk like they know you They don't know you" Diana ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:39:08 -0700 From: Ginny McCord Subject: Tolerance Diana Duncan wrote: I have absolutly no one round me that can even tolerate JM's music so knowing that you all are out therehelps me understand my adoration. It occurs to me that recent threads are really about tolerance: adoption, smoking and Al Date's commentary provide a rich canvas. I would not want to eliminate one color from mine, even if they are not my favorite. I am sorry that you have no one round you who can tolerate JM's music. I am glad you have all of us. Ginny ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:43:31 -0500 From: Diana Duncan Subject: Joni's voice I have to vote for her voice now, as compared to the early stuff. I can't believe I just said that!!! because I thought the early albums are my favorite. But listening lately, *sometimes* her high soprano is a little irritating to me. I think that maybe old age has gotten to me too. Joni's voice has changed along with my hearing!!! It's very strange 'cause before TI, I hadn't bought anything since Court and Spark. I couldn't get into "the changes" in her music at that time. Now, HOSM is in my cd changer all the time. "The seasons go round and round." And the confusion sets in. (is that a Joni lyric?) Diana, enjoying free time between sessions of summer school. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:57:13 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: smoking:what joni said--(LJC) From: Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 09:05:25 EDT Marian made two good points: 1. << Smoking is not good for anyone, period!!! It isn't good for you!!!!>> This prompts me to quote Carl Sagan from his book "The Demon-Haunted World" (p. 218) as he decries how the lack of science education or willful ignorance of facts results in sustaining superstition and/or health hazards. "Part of the success of the tobacco industry in purveying this brew of addictive poisons can be attributed to widespread unfamiliarity with baloney detection, critical thinking, and the scientific method. Gullibility kills." (Sounds close to a familiar lyric, eh?) 2.<< I can't believe Joni would buy into such a stupid rationale! >> It's not hard to believe, really. After all, just because she is a genius as an artist (and as vividly revealed recently, also a warm and caring person to her fans) doesn't imply she necessarily has a lick of sense on every other aspect of life. What is paradoxical and fascinating is how the intelligence of her art doesn't translate to a corresponding self-awareness about smoking/health. I guess that's part of our humanity (including me, lest you think I'm being holier than thou!!). :) Bob NP: Joe Henry, "Trampoline" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:04:10 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Let the Wind Carry Me Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:29:54 +0100 From: catman > .the correct term is repressed, not oppressed. > Julie, Terry, Colin and I have all testified to the power of > parental influence as something that lasts far into adulthood, > and how it can repress people. Nothing new there! The difference between repression and supression-Repression is when one forgets entirely that something happened-which is why people forget being abused. I didn't used to believ this-until a major incident of my childhood was all over the papers and I had no recolection of it happening at all. Repression can also be the 'forgetting' of emotions attached to things-disassociating. So one can realte horific events whilst feeling nothing. Unfortunately this repression of emotions is harmful-it includes not feeling good emotions-and can be, in my experience, almost totally overwhelmong when the repression stops-if it ever does-it doesn't for some-many don't want to know. Supression is to do with consciously pushing down a feeling. This can be healthy. For instance-you get angry with someone and you want to punch them or flame them. The adult person would supress that desire to act it out. however, the adult would also get rid of that anger in some other harmless way-like beating pillows. Continually supressing emotions will make one ill and miserable and both repression and supression lead to depression. Repression is never complete. For example one might have a strong reaction to a person or a situation which appears out of kilter with you. Like you meet a person who gives you the creeps or frightens you even tho that person appears quite all right. the repressed you is reacting to somethin in that person that reminds you of something you have forgotten. This not unusual at all-we all do this. we all behave according to what is in our conscious and subconscious mind. This why self knowledge is so important-so we can be as open and free as we can be. Self knowledge would also prevent us from being abusive to others. tho of course that is not something everyone is bothered about-they enjoy doing others down. I agree that joni struggles with her inner stuff-but only becuase she is a human and it is something we all do! Her writing does not lead me to think she is suppressing anything. repression is another thing all together-we cannot possibly know about that as we don't even know if we are! And if she is enmeshed with her mother-well that is nothing new at all. Even those of us who have nothing to do twith parents for whatever reason-like they have passed on-still have issues with them! Succes is still being yourself and not trying to be what they-or anyone else-thinks you should be. Joni does not appear to have let her mother or father stoe her being herself. She appears to be an indepedant thinker to me. colin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 13:53:07 EDT From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: So here's to you, may your dreams come true In a message dated 98-06-28 11:53:02 EDT, jzw@visint.com writes: << Lilith: Joni mentors Date: 98-06-28 11:53:02 EDT From: jzw@visint.com (Julie Z. Webb) Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-to: jzw@visint.com (Julie Z. Webb) To: joni@smoe.org Julie wrote, Well then, why isn't Joni performing at a few Lilith Fair events rather than "Mudstock 3?" The down side of being at the top of a hierarchy is that you are not necessarily ALLOWED to play with your subordinates. Being on top is a lonely place sometimes. For example; officers have been discharged from the military for fraternizing with subordinates. This is a self-preservation strategy on Joni's part. She knows that she is a true trail-blazer. "Accolades and honors, one false move and you're a goner. You can't tame the tiger". She's brilliant, because there is just enough publicity at the appropriate level given to her. The photo of Joni with Madonna, Cher, K.D. and Bruce Springsteen, or singing at Milton Berle's birthday party, are examples. You want to be associated with other royalty. That is why she could easily play with someone like Bob Dylan (royalty). Most of the Lilith performers are considered "imitators" from Joni's point of view. It's definately a position with a double edged sword. Joni can headline at A Day In The Garden 35 years into her reign of the singer/songwriter ilk, because she has managed her career long term. It takes a tremendous amount of effort to stay on top. You've got to prove yourself to yourself every time you're out of the gate. You've also got to be savvy about your positioning. I've talked to enough hardcore JM fans that are past that point in their lives where they are willing to withstand the schlumpy ambience of a "Woodstock" venue. There's a difference in the audience here, which will dictate the ambience of the event. With acts like Henry Rollins, Porno for Pyros and the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Bob's experience involves a completely different mind set. Not only will people be more of the parents with kids type, but Joni's music will demand that the audience concentrate and listen to it. So it's going to be totally different. Hopefully yours, Duane P.S. Is it just me, or is the word "venue" weird and somewhat clumsy to use? -------- >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:37:25 EDT From: JRMCo1@aol.com Subject: Re: So here's to you, may your dreams come true Also, they're limiting the crowd to no more than 30,000 per day. No camping at the actual concert venue, either. - -Julius In a message dated 98-06-28 13:55:54 EDT, DKasc13293@aol.com writes: << There's a difference in the audience here, which will dictate the ambience of the event. With acts like Henry Rollins, Porno for Pyros and the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Bob's experience involves a completely different mind set. Not only will people be more of the parents with kids type, but Joni's music will demand that the audience concentrate and listen to it. So it's going to be totally different. >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:19:21 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Americana abroad In a message dated 6/27/98 10:11:06 PM, rosst@union.edu wrote: >reminds me of getting a note in my trailer in Niamey, Niger one day saying >that vice prez Mondale was coming and would I please write out the >American national anthem so the Nigerien Army band could play it when he >stepped off the plane? > >This chance was too tempting. the beginning can be described in scale >degrees like this: > >5 3 1 - 3 - 5 - 1 - - and so on, these being degrees of our 7 note major >scale. I changed all the 3s to 4s, thus bending it slightly! and was hard >put to stay calm seeing Mondale's face when the band gave its rendition! I >had to guffaw into my sleeve Pretty good, although I would have gone for minor 3s, myself ... national anthem of the United Sad States of America. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:22:03 EDT From: Bmcd@aol.com Subject: Hejira In an effort to be more timely (ha! ha!) i think i'm going to try the alternative to digest. At any rate, and hoping this isn't redundant, according to random house: "Hejira (see Hegira) - 1) the flight of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina to escape persecution, A.D. 622: regarded as the beginning of the Muslim era. 2) the Muslim era itself. 3) any flight or journey to a desirable or congenial place. *My guess* would be that joni did take flight as a refuge from her pain in an ended relationship, in hopes of finding some congeniality, ex. "still the slightest touch of a stranger sets up a trembling in my bones". Other songs don't necessarily seem about the actual flight, but observances, memories sparking her muse and experiences along the way - Song for Sharon, Coyote (that almost seems like a one night stand sometimes when I listen to it). The very word flight may have sent her muse soaring to the idea of Amelia as an analogy. Did someone(s) post about Black Crow being related to a specific incident, if so what was it? Or am I confused with the Beat of Black Wings which I've read and heard about the meeting with the soldier, who as I remember came into her dressing room after a show. It sounded a little scary when I read it. Furry sings the Blues - a meeting, an exprience along the way. By the way, I've been wondering if Sharon wasn't another pesona joni imagined for herself, what life could have been like if a different path had been taken. *Any* thoughts? I don't seem to provoke much dialogue, but I'll try not to take it personally. I had a guy try to excuse his behavior recently by telling me he was from the East. So when I suggested he wear a sign around his neck explaining that, my friend who was with me said, "You need to wear one saying, I'm from the west and I'm very sensitive". ;-D He was right. Bye for now. Yours in jonispirit, Karen Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:54:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Subject: Bjork does S&L Michael Yarbrough wrote: >> >And I would give Bjork "Shadows and Light" to play with and return >> >whatever her mind invents. >> Hey Michael, I thought that we were going to submit the Boy ~ Girl Choir rendition of S & L recorded on April 18th in PGH? What finer tribute than that? NP: Dave Matthews "Don't Drink the Water" Sue Cameron (Suze) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:54:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Sue Subject: Joni's voice Hi all, As I found Joni's music beginning with Blue, I would have to say that I loved the way she could make those notes soar. With each subsequent album, however, I fell in love all over again. It is almost like saying that I no longer love my husband of 15 years because he has lost some hair and gained a size or two. I loved him then, I love him now. Same with Joni's voice. NRH really cemented the fact for me. Two Grey Rooms, the way she sings "below my window" with that husky low "emotional" voice. And with TI and Sunny Sunday, the effect of the lower range is stunning. Besides, selfishly speaking, she is much easier to sing along with now! Someone also mentioned Come in From the Cold (sorry I can't remember who). Is there a more clear cut example of how beautifully she can still sing? Looking forward to rutting in the mud in the Garden :-) NP: Misses Sue Cameron (Suze) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 19:05:40 EDT From: Bmcd@aol.com Subject: Al's analysis I waded through several digests to see where Al's original mother's day post would lead. Now I'm adding a few thoughts. To be honest, my first reaction was - mouth hanging open, feeling appalled at what seemed like a whole lot of thoroughly inaccurate *speculation* about Joni's "text" as she refers to it. Did Joni discuss somewhere in interviews "the influence (her) dear mother has had on.....her adult life". If so, was it so in depth that Al could draw the conclusions he did? If not, then what makes anyone think joni's mother had any sort of great influence over her life or her art? That is a legitimate question, I'm really curious about whether joni's ever commented on her mother much and how deep she went. Did she also say that "many songs (had gone) unfinished because lyrics might be offensive to mother" thus leading to Al's interpretation that joni "sanitizes her work"? The Magdelane laundry is a prison, essentially. Joni is not imprisoned. Surely, given her incredible music and lyrics, her wonderful insights, the fact that she sees today's world for what it is (that "she fucking gets it and writes about it" (from another post of someone's)), that she writes so openly of her "hope and despair" in relationships, about passion, lust and love, leads me to believe she is not, *in any way* being supervised by her mother's morality. In regard to Facelift, I agree whole heartedly with the person who felt there was a bit of chiding going on here. "Aw, come on mama", "For God sakes, mama...". Where in the world does the notion that joni is apologizing to her mother "FOR HER WHOLE FUCKING LIFE!" (sorry readers) come from. I think there is a lot of projecting going on here. I wonder if the author's own relationship with mom isn't being projected on to joni?? That's my dime-store analysis. In regard to Joni being sexually explicit, joni did grow up in a time when vulgarity just didn't fly, but then grew with the times in terms of sex. She had many relationships, not at all uncommon, and was much more sensual, than in your face sexual, in her lyrics about a few of her escapades. If Joni didn't commit to someone until she was 40, well that seems to be the nature of the beast, if you will, for rock and movie stars. It's all too tempting. Not everyone is cut out for monogamy either. I have seen joni as a socio-political commentator for a long time. DED deals with this almost wholly. Please note the politics in the song Turbulent Indigo. We have a society of "well-bred" (hear the sarcasm in my voice), well-off art collectors who wouldn't let a man such as Van Gogh into their homes if he were to come forward today. Who knows how many great artists are living on the streets, muttering to themselves in some state of psychosis or despair, filthy for lack of accomodations? She refers to the Indians over and over, "ripping off Indian land again", Lakota, the polluted water in Cool Water and if you want a more comprehensive comment on the politics of "third world countries" listen to Ethiopia - "Your top soil flys away, We pump our full of poison spray", "I hear the whine of chain saws hacking rain forests down" hacking, not sawing, not removing, brutal "hacking". Joni is a revolutionary when she sounds the wake up call, "I picked the morning paper off the floor, it was full of other people's little wars,...........don't we get bored?" Tax Free- talk about controversial. Picture mom and dad going to church on Sunday (just imagine, because I don't know if they do) and friends/neighbors have heard joni's indictment of organized religion. The way I see it there is no "mother looking over her shoulder syndrome". Further, Joni's profound ability, her great gift in using "text" and lyrics, poetry and music, to speak, is far more eloquent and sophisticated than the lyrics posted here by Liz Phair from Flower. And that eloquence is my first choice for what I want to listen to. To conclude, I must agree with Ric, this sounded like a dime store analysis if I ever heard one, and I've heard my share being in social work for 14 years. Thanks to all who took the time to read. I needed to speak my mind. Yours in jonispirit, Karen Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:20:19 -0400 From: Robin Chassé Subject: Diana Duncan's Post Dated: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 Diana I agree 100% Robin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:47:25 +0000 From: Kate Tarasenko Subject: JC: A Day... list link To Les: Is there any way for us to have A Day in the Garden list-link >like we had for the West Coast tour? Good idea Kate! The mailing list has been set up at . Anyone who wants to join simply needs to send a request to me and I'll add you to the list. >From that point on, all mail sent to will be received by all that have signed up. Now we need a list host... Kate? THANKS, LES!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:20:42 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Lilith Fair 6/27/98 One thing about summer: it's all about being out. Out of the home, out of school (this only applies to some of us), out and about, in anyway, but most of all HAVING FUN AND ENJOYING YOURSELF. And in summer time, if you're lucky and interested, you can have fun and enjoy yourself immensely at the local outdoor summer concerts. But this is my point: Lilith Fair was nothing less than awesome in most aspects. My auntie took me and my cousin (the same one who went to the Sarah McLachlan concert with me last November) to the Fair this year. I was all psyched up to see Sarah since I've finally got all her albums/collections. I was also looking forward to seeing preggers Shawn Colvin and Natalie Merchant. We got there at about two and let me tell you, was there ever a line! It moved pretty swiftly though and we were on the grounds in hardly an time at all. Last year, they wouldn't let us bring in food or water even if it was sealed. This year, they were a little cooler about it and we brought in water bottles. Just like last year, there were tents selling stuff and two other stages. But unlike last year, there were so many more people! The Rose Bowl isn't the best place to have the Lilith Fair. They should have kept it at Irvine Meadows, were there was grass and it was a little more "user-friendly". But it really doesn't matter. It's Lilith! Shawn Colvin was on first and I really enjoyed her set alot. She was very pregnant, but she sounded great. Some of her lyrics just hit very close to home. I especially liked the line: "It feels so good to doubt you, I could even live without you, but not quite..." (what song any shawn fans?). She ended with "Sunny Came Home" which was a major crowd pleaser. I was dancing in the aisle during this one. Next was Sinead O'Conner, who just blew Shawn Colvin off the stage IMHO with her raw energy and FANTASTIC voice. She left my ears ringing. She's shaved her head again and looks very lovely. She brought tears to my eyes when she sang "Nothing Compares 2 U". She introduced one song by saying, "I wrote this song when I was 15 and that explains it." I should check out something of Sinead's. I shopped between sets. I decided to get this pretty pink sun dress even though my aunt didn't want me to because she thought the fabric was cheap (it is, but I don't mind so much). I also got another red dress with a butterfly embroidered on the front. The dresses were just flying off the racks. I was trying to be thrifty because my mother hates it when I don't bring back change. I also signed petitions for NOW and RAINN and picked up some postcards that say, "WE WILL NOT BE RAPED, WE WILL NOT BE BEATEN, WE WILL NOT BE ABUSED...WE WILL BE STRONG, WE WILL FIGHT BACK." I have half a mind to send one to Griffin, but I won't because he won't get what I mean. Besides, it's mean and I don't want to be mean now that I've got the relationship back on somewhat of a steady path. Erykah Badu was very dramatic and she was wearing a very pretty white dress and headwrap. She explained what "Baduizm" was and used the Ankh to describe a circle of life. I'm not really into that jazz/hip hop stuff she does, but she was entertaining. Does anyone here besides me not like the Indigo Girls? They sort of bug me with their peppiness and extreme folkiness. But I do admire them. The crowd loved them and I do admit there were some high points to their set such as when Shawn and Sarah joined them on stage for "The Water Is Wide" and when John Popper of Blues Traveler, Ellen DeGeneres, Sarah, Shawn, K's Choice (Who ROCK by the way), Tara McLean, and others came onstage for "Closer to Fine" as their last number. The audience sang along and we got to sing the chorus at one point. Natalie Merchant was next and was she ever fabulous! Resplendent in red and pink, she was dancing and moving about the stage and having a great time. She sang all the best songs. It was very pretty because the sun had just gone down and Natalie was simply glowing in pink. Her hair was done Princess Leia-esque with purple flowers braided in. Then finally: Mistress SARAH MCLACHLAN, the fabulous, the wonderful, the amazing, the faboo, the forever-fantastic. She was also pretty in pink. She started off with "Sweet Surrender" which was amazing. I was dancing and jumping and having a great time, no matter what the Nazi gaurds who ordered me back into my seat did. She went through an odd set, going through underdog but beautiful songs such as "Witness" and "Black and White". She did "Elsewhere" which is one of my all time faves. The crowd adored "Ice Cream" and she had us sing along as she always does. But mostly the biggest crowd pleasers were "Building a Mystery" (beautiful) and "Posession". Sarah got an encore in which she sang "Angel". Then everyone came back on stage for "Mother, Mother". All in all, a great, amazing, fabulous night. All the concerts I've been to this year have been amazing (expect for maybe Griffin's but that's because I was in such a terrible state of being). The spirit of it seems slightly altered...a little more commercial, but it's Lilith Fair and I'm so glad I was able to go back for '98. Go Sarah! mariana NP: Elliott Smith, -Roman Candle-, No Name No.3 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:41:57 EDT From: Bmcd@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Joni's shortest song This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_899091718_boundary Content-ID: <0_899091718@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII - --part0_899091718_boundary Content-ID: <0_899091718@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: Bmcd@aol.com Return-path: To: joni@smoe-org Subject: Joni's shortest song Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:55:10 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I was watching the tape tree during the London interview and her performance of Sunny Sunday. She told the interviewer that Sunny Sunday was the shortest song she had ever recorded. Looking through my collection, there are a lot that come very close. SS comes in at 2:37, WTRF comes in at 2:12!, Ladie's Man - 2:37, You're So Square...2:36, Underneath the Streetlight - 2:14, I think the only "rap" that counts on Mingus is "I's a Muggin" since joni and charlie sings that, A Bird that Whistles - 2:38, Smokin' (Empty, Try Another) - 1:43!!, Woman of Heart and Mind - 2:36, You Turn Me on, I'm a Radio and Blonde in the Bleachers both come in at 2:40. So, enlightened ones, is this because when CD's are "made" from the master tapes something changes from what Joni recorded on the master tape? Karen Mc - Just musin' - --part0_899091718_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:23:32 EDT From: FredNow@aol.com Subject: JC: Woodstock, Les, motives & voices From: Kate Tarasenko >>It seems that SOME of this discussion is steeped in a sort of >>denial, the kind reserved for the reactionaries: Play the oldies, >>play the hits! Joni's voice has changed along with her repertoire. Speaking for myself, I have no problem with the change in her voice. I want to hear the older tunes (hits or not) because, as I've said before, they are better musical compositions ... the melodies are more inspired, the harmonies more ingenious. - -Fred ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:47:53 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: Joni & The JMDL Does anyone else see the irony Al's posts? It seems that in his mind any choices Joni may have made in deference to her mother's feelings are nothing but self-censorship or self-denial. But has he stopped to consider Joni's feelings before bombarding the list with his highly speculative hypothesis and absurd, presumptuous conclusions? While I think some of his points may be valid and interesting, it's his tone and approach which I object to. This is a public forum, and we know that Joni has read other posts on this list. We certainly have no way of knowing wheteher or not she's seen this thread. And this is presumably a "community" which would seek to be supportive of her. How do you balance the need for honest self-expression with the desire to respect the feelings of those whom you care for? It bothers me that not only does Al censure Joni for (presumably) considering that question, but he also refuses to ask it of himself. It makes me uncomfortable when people talk about how noble and healthy they find the free exchange of "ideas" on the list. Sure, it's great that the list itself is uncensored, but that doesn't mean we should go patting ourselves on the back every time we assume the role of the upstart. And if memory serves me, Les has, while encouraging free speech, also encouraged us to post with repect for Joni. Perhaps a resonable rule of thumb would be this: post what you will, but temper your rhetoric with the knowledge that Joni (the actual, real, feeling person) may read your post. Peace, David ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #228 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?