From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #225 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Saturday, June 27 1998 Volume 03 : Number 225 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Let the Wind Carry Me [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] Re: Joni's Voice [Ken ] Re: ["M & C Urbanski" ] V-A-C-A-T-I-O-N [Mark or Travis ] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [TerryM2442@aol.com] NJC Vacation Me Too [Michael Yarbrough ] Re:John Winston's rents [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: John Winston's rents [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: John Winston's rents [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni's voice [Seanapper@aol.com] Joni altar [Seanapper@aol.com] Re: Re: Re: Re: Joni's Voice ["Eric W Taylor" ] Re: the human voice as a window to the soul [Thomas Ross ] Re: Madonna covering Joni ["Eric W Taylor" ] Re: piano on plains [DKasc13293@aol.com] Audiophile's Corner [Bounced Message ] Joni and Bob [Bounced Message ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:09:12 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: Let the Wind Carry Me Roberto said: > The fact that Joni wrote Let the Wind Carry Me and > Happiness is the Best Facelift in the first place indicates that she is > open and uncompromising in the way she deals with this relationship. She is generally open and honest. I think that is one of her great attractions. But how many grown artists write as much about their parents as Joni does? Has anyone even THOUGHT about the parents of Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, Jackson Browne, John Lennon, ,.... About the only thing I can vaguely recall is Paul's grandfather in a Hard Day's Night! :) > If she > were as oppressed as Al Date has stated she is, these songs wouldn't have > reached us at all. I think the correct term is repressed, not oppressed. Julie, Terry, Colin and I have all testified to the power of parental influence as something that lasts far into adulthood, and how it can repress people. Nothing new there! Joni seems to acknowledge that parental influence is operative in her life, by focussing repeatedly on her parents in her lyrics. > (Am I alone in this, or is there a certain amount of > aw-come-on-mom! teasing in Facelift?) Surely Joni does not hate her mother, if that is what you are implying. Parental influence transcends the parent--it gets in rather deep. She said at the San Jose concert (before doing Facelift) that she almost cut off her relationship with her mother as a result of the latest encounter. The fact that this was an ALMOST, is what strikes me as the most telling. She can't break off the relationship. > I remember reading that Joni's dad > responded to the nude photo in For The Roses by saying, "Myrtle, that's > what the kids are doing now." She obviously went ahead and did what she > felt was right without getting mom's permission! From her lyrics and interviews, her dad is 180 degrees opposite to her mother. And I think we should all thank heaven for that. As much as Joni is repressed by her mother-figure, she is liberated by her father-figure. She likes to run with the boys, and do those wildass boy things, like playing pinball. So, if we revisit the lyrics to Let the Wind Carry Me, I think it is easy to see the seeds of a Magdalene Laundries syndrome, from the maternal side. 1972: Papa's faith is in people. Mama she's always cleaning. Papa brought home the sugar, Mama taught me the deeper meaning. She dont like my kick-pleat skirt She dont like my eyelids painted green She dont like me staying up late... Mama thinks she spoiled me Papa knows somehow he set me free Mama thinks she spoiled me rotten She blames herself But papa he blesses me I can only conclude from these honest lyrics that the parental influence is strong, and Joni is conflicted, between the loving, forgiving and understanding of her father, and the shame, blame and moralism of her mother. It's all mixed up with love, and very hard to rationalize. According to her mother-figure, Joni is a fallen woman. According to her father-figure, she is "a movie queen." But these are all subjective mental categorizations. I do not claim that she is a fallen woman, whatever the hell that means. I would prefer to think of her as a movie queen, if I had my choice. Instead, I must conclude that she is "abundantly human." The way she jumps into the first-person portrayal of Magdalene Laundries, Joni openly shows that a part of herself can easily relate to those retched fallen women--as she has had to periodically contend with that image herself, thanks to you-know-who. It's a "natural," so to speak. And hence, I infer an autobiographical nature to the song. Fortunately, it is only half the autobiographical picture, parental-influentially speaking. Can you imagine if BOTH of her parents were rigid guilt-trippers? - --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:57:13 -0700 From: Ken Subject: Re: Joni's Voice Linda Brady wrote: > > > How come the most sonically compex album of all-time, "Sgt Pepper" doesn't > have these so-called "harmonic stretches?"(e.g., off-key vocals)? Because > the four Beatles's voices were able to reach the notes. I think you need to go back and play Pepper again. Do you really think that Ringo doesn't go off key in A Little Help From My Friends.? And listen to the falseto harmony in Getting Better. The Beatles were far from perfect. The songs where Joni sings off key, that annoy me the most, are some of her earlier songs like Big Yellow Taxi. - -- (~~~) ( KEN ) ( * * ) ( * * ) (* *) ) ( ) ( |-| Back to the Shadows again |-| |=| |-| |-| |=| email = slarty@total.net |-| |-| web = http://www.total.net/~slarty/ (''| |'') ( ) ) ( ) ( ( ) ( ) ( ) `~ ~' ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:11:15 -0400 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: - ---------- > From: Michael Heath > To: Hassan Zubairi > Cc: 'joni@smoe.org' > Subject: Re: > Date: Friday, June 26, 1998 11:25 AM > > > > Hassan Zubairi wrote: > > > Why Joni tribute album? Is she dead? Please.....Joni covers album perhaps but tribute? That's a bit too much like worship > > Jamie Z > > I have a small altar in my living room with candles, pieces of shiny things, incense and a gilded framed picture of Godess > Joni...I chant daily. > > cul :) > I have a 7 foot by 5 foot multi image painting of Joni I had finished a few months ago hanging in my living room. Sometimes I'll lay on the couch and just stare at it while playing Joni music. My husband comments that I'm praying to my God. Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:25:46 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: V-A-C-A-T-I-O-N We're leaving on a 2 week road trip to California tomorrow morning. Hoping to see the glory of Yosemite and the Sequoias and the Redwoods as well as the Hearst Castle & Monterey Aquarium. So I will be going on digest for the next 2 weeks and missing all the good stuff and all you wonderful friends on the JMDL. As Billie once sang: 'Please don't talk about me when I'm gone' Bye for now Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:25:36 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation In a message dated 6/26/98 7:13:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM writes: << Most women who give up their children seem to not only understand EXACTLY why, but they are very open about it, and everyone understands. Why does this not apply to Joni? And even if it did not apply in 1964, why would it still not today? I have more questions than answers. >> Al, I've come to the point of really wondering more about your interest in Joni's adoption plan than JONI'S issues. But other than that, I'd like to suggest that we all use some politically correct language in discussing adoption, if you don't mind. "Giving up a baby" is considered politically incorrect these days. A birthmom makes an "adoption plan"- she doesn't just give up a baby. People not involved in adoption would be amazed at how much thought and planning actually goes into this process. Terry, over and out ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:44:08 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: NJC Vacation Me Too I'm also heading out until next Thursday. There are many of you I owe personal replies from the last couple of weeks; please be patient while I get some much needed R&R. I don't hate you! :-) Lemme know the Maddie verdict... - --Michael NP: R.E.M., _Reckoning_ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:05:41 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re:John Winston's rents In a message dated 98-06-26 22:10:57 EDT, Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM writes: << Has anyone even THOUGHT about the parents of Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Van Morrison, Jackson Browne, John Lennon, ,.... About the only thing I can vaguely recall is Paul's grandfather in a Hard Day's Night! :) >> Lennon might also be a bad example of this since he wrote of his aunt who raised him in ??? ( a song from the White Album whose title escapes me at this groggy moment) and "Mother," his primal scream therapy song from his first solo album, the Plastic Ono Band. "Mother, you left me, but I never left you. ... Father, I wanted you, but you didn't want me." etc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:29:18 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: John Winston's rents In a message dated 6/27/98 12:06:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, IVPAUL42@aol.com writes: << Lennon might also be a bad example of this since he wrote of his aunt who raised him in ??? ( a song from the White Album whose title escapes me at this groggy moment) >> Paul, Are you referring to the song Julia? That was his mum, not his aunt. Can't think of any song where he wrote about his Aunt. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:32:39 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: John Winston's rents In a message dated 98-06-27 00:31:52 EDT, TerryM2442@aol.com writes: << Paul, Are you referring to the song Julia? That was his mum, not his aunt. Can't think of any song where he wrote about his Aunt. Terry >> Guess not. As usual, you are correct. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:37:16 EDT From: Seanapper@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's voice On Friday, 26 Jun, David Marine wrote: "Howard Motyl brought up the question of Joni's voice, and I'm curious to know what the general opinion is on the list about Joni's singing. To me her recent singing is in many ways stronger than ever." ****************** I also like Joni's present-day deeper, darker voice. To my ears, her voice sounds best beginning with "Dog Eat Dog" and sounds even better in each subsequent album. I must confess that my least favorite album is STAS (yeah, I know...blasphemy). Although she sings beautifully in that album, the clear soprano voice she had back then just doesn't appeal to me as much. I love her voice during what I call her "middle period," (Hejira, HOSL, etc.). During that period, her voice was richer and could really fly; it's just amazing how she used it then. That period is my favorite overall. Now, her voice doesn't skip up and down the scales as much, but its richness gives it a different kind of power. I can't really find the words to describe it, but to me, it's almost as if I can "feel" her voice more now than when it was higher and clearer. Neil in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:45:07 EDT From: Seanapper@aol.com Subject: Joni altar Michael Heath wrote: "I have a small altar in my living room with candles, pieces of shiny things, incense and a gilded framed picture of Godess Joni...I chant daily." How funny you should mention that, Cul! Back when I lived in Austin, I had a couple of "Annual Joni Mitchell Belated Birthday Parties." I would set up a Joni altar in my living room: a gold-framed Joni picture surrounded by roses, with beads, trinkets, and burning incense underneath, all lit by a row of white candles. Those who felt compelled to do so might genuflex and add a trinket or coin to the offerring, or maybe an empty cardboard box (I was about to move). Others would feel compelled to bow to my cat, Jude (may she rest in peace), who felt that SHE was the rightful Queen of the Universe. One talented friend would bring her guitar and serenade us with Joni songs. They were fun parties, and reading about your altar brought those fond memories back to me. Thanks! Neil in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:12:01 -0400 From: "Eric W Taylor" Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Joni's Voice John T. Folden" wrote: >That was a different person who sang on Court & Spark than we >hear today singing on Harlem. Some of the vocals on Ladies Of >The Canyon were wonderful and fit the tone of the music beautifully >but I'd hate to hear that same voice today singing on Turbulent Indigo. >What her current voice might lack in range or fluidity it more than >makes up for in maturity, experience and warmth. Right on, John! Why is higher better and lower worse, anyway? Joni's voice has never sounded better than on Last Chance Lost. I'll be out of town for a month, so sorry that I don't respond... E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:54:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Re: the human voice as a window to the soul yes f'rinstance in Sacred Harp or 'shape-note' singing it's about singing from your gut (I think) and heart rather than trying for smooth choral blend. That one alto may really skreek out there sometimes but it's to be encouraged! Tom Ross The Cormack & Ross Band's new CD 'global jazz songs' album *HORSE of STONE*, made possible by David Crosby, has excerpts and info at http://www.barncard.com/cormack-ross.html Mizazi Recordings Box 542 Middletown, CT 06457 "Sublime. . . fascinating vocal interplay, virtuoso instrumental work and deeply creative songwriting that blends classical Asian styles with contemporary and traditional Western motifs. . . had this actually been released and recognized when it was recorded, today's music might have a wholly different sound." J. Eric Smith, METROLAND ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 06:03:05 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: piano on plains Eric, I'm don't believe it was on purpose. I remember her telling a story that she was somewhere in NYC, jamming with musicians whom she respected (probably the other players on DJRD). She insisted that the piano in the studio was out of tune, but these other 4 or 5 guys assured her it was in perfect tune, and because she respected their musical ear, figured that there was something wrong with her, maybe a cold or something, so she just forgot about the tuning issue, made the best of it, and began playing. When she met Charles Mingus for the first time, I believe in his NYC apartment, she walked into the room, he had his back facing her, and one of the first things he said was "that piano's out of tune." She said "THANK YOU!" (as if to imply "I *knew* I wasn't crazy). I just spent hours on Les's site looking for the backup to the above, but couldn't find anything (except plenty of interesting reading). Then I recalled that I believe I heard this story TOLD, so perhaps its from one of the tape trees... Now I'm not positive that the paino in this story is the piano used in Paprika Plains, as I don't recall Paprika Plains being mentioned by name in the above story, but it stands to reason based on simple chronology, and it is the only piano song on DJRD.....anyone know for sure? As to your question, WallyK, sorry, I can't name a passage, us non-musicians don't alway hear these things :-) -Kenny "Eric W Taylor" wrote: > The only time I remember Joni being off-key was her piano on > >Paprika Plains, and she did that on purpose. > > E.T. > > "Wally Kairuz" wrote: > This is the second time that someone has mentioned the out-of-tune piano on > Plains. Will somebody better endowed [ aurally] than I please indicate a > passage where this is evident? I hear dissonance, but the piano sounds > well-tuned to me. > > WallyK > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 02:04:58 EDT From: Seanapper@aol.com Subject: Madonna covering Joni Michael Y. wrote: "The other suggestion would be an all-out dancefloor rave-up version of "Black Crow," replete with wooden breakbeats and diving, diving, diving." ****************** I think that would be a perfect choice! I know a lot of people don't like Madonna because she has been so commercialized and, for a while, was so overexposed (so to speak). But she's also talented and energetic, and I could imagine her doing justice to that song. In my head, I can see the video now: Madonna spinning and leaping around in some black feathered thing with a boa while in the background images of "shiny things" fade in and out (men, jewelry, fancy cars, big wads of cash, etc.). I think it would work! But I hope she wouldn't be wearing that big pointy metal bra again in the video. Neil in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:22:33 -0700 From: Michael Heath Subject: Re: piano on plains You can hear it on the single pitch repeats just before the orchestral section. cul Wally Kairuz wrote: > The only time I remember Joni being off-key was her piano on > >Paprika Plains, and she did that on purpose. > > E.T. > > This is the second time that someone has mentioned the out-of-tune piano on > Plains. Will somebody better endowed [ aurally] than I please indicate a > passage where this is evident? I hear dissonance, but the piano sounds > well-tuned to me. > > WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:58:37 -0400 From: "Eric W Taylor" Subject: Re: Madonna covering Joni Michael Yarbrough wrote: >If I were the executive producer of the Joni cover album, I would >give Madonna two suggestions. "Down to You," with production >along the lines of "I Want You" but more spacious and blippy... >The other suggestion would be an all-out dancefloor rave-up >version of "Black Crow," replete with wooden breakbeats and diving, >diving, diving. >And I would give Bjork "Shadows and Light" to play with and return >whatever her mind invents. Yes, Madonna could do Down To You better than almost anyone. And I would love to hear Black Crow done disco! But bjork doesn't have the patience required for S&L, and would do a lot better on There Lives A Wolf In Lindsey... I'll be gone for a month, so sorry I can't reply. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 02:39:51 EDT From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: piano on plains The truth of the Paprika Plains out of tune piano story is that Paprika Plains was recorded at different times. The orchestration was overdubbed, and the piano was tuned inbetween recordings. It was originally recorded in August (some random month) and then completed months later (like in October). You're not hearing a played-straight-through recording on the album. The piano is out of tune with the orchestration 3/4 of the way through. I haven't listened to this epic for a while now, but I remember being so enthralled with Joni's talent to tell a story on HOSL that there was this vibe, that Joni should do some Broadway score or something similar. When Paprika Plains was released it was as if she heard my thoughts. There she was, creating a 16 minute epic. I can only remember In Agada Divida (sp) and Thick as Brick sustaining a pop audiences interest for that length of time. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:59:20 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Audiophile's Corner Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:03:04 -0400 From: Jim L'Hommedieu We don't have to choose *between* Joni's youthful soprano and her current huskiness. We can enjoy both at our whim because we have the recordings! I have to admit though..... even though I own all 19 albums/CDs, I still wince at that clinker in Blue Motel Room at 25 seconds, then again at 4:39. - -- Hoping she's not lurking today, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:59:57 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Joni and Bob Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:29:00 -0400 From: Jim L'Hommedieu Who among us saw Dylan recently? I have to compare Bob Dylan's live performance this year with, say, the Bob Dylan on "Before the Flood". Wow, what a serious dive in quality. I mean, I love Bobby for his words, now and then. But way back then he also had a quality to his phrasing and there was a melody in his voice. Now, it sounds like a person barking over chord changes. So sad. Joni can still sing (at least when those vocal nodes aren't present, sheesh!) - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** Note to Steve Dulson: You wrote about the new sadness that your found in "When I'm 64". Yeah.. Linda *won't* be there. So sad for Paul. ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #225 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?