From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #224 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, June 26 1998 Volume 03 : Number 224 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Joni's Voice [Linda Brady ] Re: Little Green [Denisongs@aol.com] Pondering on the Ponderosa [Susan Chaloner ] Re: Lost Verse of MATW [Bill Dollinger ] Re: Pondering on the Ponderosa [jan gyn ] Chord progression for intro to MATW [Marian Russell ] Madonna [evian ] Re: Madonna [jan gyn ] The Complete Last Waltz [kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave)] Re: Pondering on the Ponderosa [Susan Chaloner ] Re: Little Green [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: stretching Voices [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Janet & the BOBW [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] Townes Van Zandt [Anne Madden ] Re: Joni's Voice [Michael Heath ] Re: Joni's Voice ["John T. Folden" ] Misc; Laura Nyro follow-up [RMuRocks@aol.com] Re: Madonna/Prince ["John T. Folden" ] RE: Joni mother-shame fixation [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] List Problems [davina@pacificsw.com (Davina Greenstein)] Candle Flame Returned/Joni's Voice ["Eric W Taylor" ] Re: Janet & the BOBW [Howard Motyl ] JM's voice [Howard Motyl ] Re: Joni's Voice [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: JM's voice [IVPAUL42@aol.com] RE: Madonna covering Joni [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: Joni's voice [briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian)] Re: Joni's voice [Linda Brady ] Re: Madonna covering Joni [Bolvangar@aol.com] RE: Joni's Voice [ long ] ["Wally Kairuz" ] piano on plains ["Wally Kairuz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:19:11 +0100 From: Linda Brady Subject: Joni's Voice I've decided that the answer to Joni's *alleged* off-key vocals is: she was singing whilst trying to play the nanoguitar. :) Don said: >I think it much more likely > that she is stretching harmonically, I'll agree with you that she's stretching...:) but I think putting it down to the complex nature of the production and "harmonics" is being *very, very* kind to Joni. Very generous, and I am all for generosity, but I choose to give to the homeless :) kidding, kidding. How come the most sonically compex album of all-time, "Sgt Pepper" doesn't have these so-called "harmonic stretches?"(e.g., off-key vocals)? Because the four Beatles's voices were able to reach the notes. Look, I love Joni, but I am also willing to examine her (few) faults, and one of them is that her voice has not aged gracefully. It's not about her songwriting, which remains great, or her guitar playing (which is *amazing*), it is about the mechanics of the human body; it's like her eyesight isn't what it used to be. Same thing. It's a fact (okay, it's an opinion :)) Then Julie wrote: >Now, regarding my opinion of Joni's singing voice. I too love her voice >for what it used to be from DJRD back. This affection I have for her >music from long ago, ----- serves as a motivating factor to adjust to the >voice of the new sounding Joni. It's as if I listen to her now for what >she was...but in doing so, I discover that Im sometimes, not always, >enchanted by her new work. I agree 100% with this, Julie. It is *exactly* why I still love and listen to Joni's work. Absolutely. I couldn't have said it better myself. Linda ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:19:23 EDT From: Denisongs@aol.com Subject: Re: Little Green In a message dated 98-06-26 09:59:00 EDT, you write: << Does anyone know how long some of her songs "sit" before she decides to record? >> I seem to remember that the copyright date on Little Green was a couple of years before the rest of Blue. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:28:38 -0700 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Pondering on the Ponderosa jan gyn, If you were lucky enough to escape economic hardship on the Canadian Prairies during the 1940's, 50's and 60's, when Joni and I were growing up there, consider yourself extremely privileged and thank your lucky stars! :~) If it's a class war you're after, you might get one...Some of us 'ex-prairie trash' have managed to acquire computers ;~D - -- Susan L.A. Who doesn't forget her roots... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:38:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Lost Verse of MATW > Bill, is it possible to switch tunings in the middle of songs with the VG-8 without it sounding choppy? Good question, Sue! I believe the answer is yes. Joni could simply program in two adjacent patches with everything the same except the tunings. Then she could go back and forth using the foot pedals. Also, I assume joni will be getting into even more bizarre tunings since the limitations of the strings no longer is a factor. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:48:11 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Pondering on the Ponderosa At 01:28 PM 6/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >jan gyn, > >If you were lucky enough to escape economic hardship on the Canadian >Prairies during the 1940's, 50's and 60's, when Joni and I were growing >up there, consider yourself extremely privileged and thank your lucky >stars! :~) > >If it's a class war you're after, you might get one...Some of us >'ex-prairie trash' have managed to acquire computers ;~D > >-- >Susan L.A. >Who doesn't forget her roots... > Huh? I was just saying that the joni/mother discussion was getting a bit thick, for me that is. But I don't think it should stop. Discussions like this are best in e_mail: you don't spend alotta money on drinks, you don't make a fool of yourself (cough), and you don't get 86'd. Believe me, I know... - -Jan S.F. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:54:55 +0200 From: Marian Russell Subject: Chord progression for intro to MATW Sue McNamara wrote: > Wow, that's very cool that she played the first verse during the tour. I > always assumed that she didn't play the first verse because the guitar part > was not in the same tuning as the rest of the song. > The tuning is the same as the rest of the song, Sue. Maybe it's only when she plays it totally solo that she doesn't do the intro - you kind of need some rhythm in the background unless you have a very good musical imagination! Here is the chord progression for the intro: These first two lines of chords all harmonics: |||||| |||||| |||||| CCCCCC 555555 777777 |||||| |||||| |||||| |||||| |||||| |||||| CCCCCC 555555 777777 |||||| |||||| |||||| ++++++++++++++++ |||||| |||||| 777777 555555 |||||| |||||| It takes cheerful resignation |||||| |||||| 777777 555555 |||||| |||||| Heart and humili- ty That's all it |||||| |||||| 777777 555555 |||||| |||||| takes A cheerful per |||||| 777777 |||||| -son told me |||||| |||||| 888888 AAAAAA |||||| |||||| Nobody's harder on me than |||||| 555555 |||||| me - How could they be? And |||||| |||||| 888888 AAAAAA |||||| |||||| Nobody's harder on you than |||||| |||||| 333333 555555 |||||| |||||| You oooooo Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:51:53 -0600 From: evian Subject: Madonna Hi, For some reason, I can really picture Madonna singing "Court and Spark". Or, I know this sounds REALLY stupid, but I somehow also think she would be good doing "Passion Play." Evian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 02:18:06 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Madonna > For some reason, I can really picture Madonna singing "Court and >Spark". Or, I know this sounds REALLY stupid, but I somehow also think >she would be good doing "Passion Play." > >Evian > What the f-? McDonna? Is she going to 'vogue' on this? I don't mind McDonna as a dance music type, I have a CD or two, but I don't see her doing Joni (without getting ill, that is)... But I wouldn't mind a Bjork version of 'You turn me on, I'm a radio'. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:37:59 -0400 (EDT) From: kb420@webtv.net (gr8fuldave) Subject: The Complete Last Waltz Hello all, I just recieved in the mail today 4 CDR's of The Complete Last Waltz. Since their was some mention of this recently I thought I would mention that in addition to "Coyote", Joni performs "Shadows & Light" and "Furry Sings The Blues", as well. This CD set is the complete show in the correct order including 17 tracks omitted from the official release. This is a copy of the honest & raw recording without any overdubs and studio tricks as in the album & movie. This bootleg CD set sells for around $70 if you can find it. If anyone is interested, I would be happy to tape Joni's three song set as well as any other artists performances for anyone who can help in aquiring the Joni tape trees. I need them all eventually. I have the videos already. (Thanks Ashara). I am vacationing all week away from e-mail starting tonight, but drop a line if interested and I will get back to you sometime after the Fourth of July. I hope to meet many of you in Bethel in August. I can hardly wait. It will be my first Joni show ever. I have been a devoted fan since my introduction in to MOA in 1983. Too late for that tout though. I once had tickets to see her headline right in my town not 5 minutes away in 1993 but she cancelled in the 11th hour. I was SO disappointed. Joined here a month before May's tour and have read every review so anticipation for Bethel is high. Then a fall tour perhaps? Here's hoping! Dave - ----------------------------------------------------------------- DaveBase @ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2349/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:44:17 -0700 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: Pondering on the Ponderosa jan gyn wrote: > Huh? I was just saying that the joni/mother discussion was getting a bit > thick, for me that is. Well, then we're in agreement! Glad we got that cleared up ;~D - -- Susan L.A. "....Living in castles a bit a time..." with Neil Young's Harvest ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:50:33 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Little Green In a message dated 98-06-26 10:30:48 EDT, kg@ibm.net writes: << The only song of hers that I know "sat" for a while was Two Grey Rooms, but I'm not sure if it qualifies here, cause the music was composed 7 years before the lyrics, so it "sat" incomplete. >> I believe "Urge for Going" would qualify as another song she sat on for some time. It was supposed to be on one of her first two albums, I forget which, and wasn't released until the flip side of "You Turn Me On I'm a Radio." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:53:31 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: stretching Voices In a message dated 98-06-26 16:18:46 EDT, l.brady@lancaster.ac.uk writes: << How come the most sonically compex album of all-time, "Sgt Pepper" doesn't have these so-called "harmonic stretches?"(e.g., off-key vocals)? Because the four Beatles's voices were able to reach the notes. >> That's one way to look at it, but I would suggest that the Beatles as songwriters and George Martin as producer only let them go for notes they could comfortably reach because they were not interested in stretching in that direction. The album had enough stretches in it in other ways without pushing their voices beyond their capabilities, which I suggest they DID try on the White Album. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:50:31 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Janet & the BOBW In a message dated 98-06-26 09:34:53 EDT, dgrowe@hotmail.com writes: << depth and resonance, the means whereby emotion and pain if forced into the vessel of the lyrics. Later Billie Holliday (Joni's own idol) was essential in this quality ... and one that I think "Beat of Black Wings" requires. >> Range is not depth and resonance. Those factors might give her voice more "quality,' at least to your ear, but you certainly are misusing "range" to cite those factors. There's no question Joni lacks the range she once had. What you are saying, I believe, and it may be hard to argue the point, is that Joni and Billie Holiday developed more quality and emotion to their singing voice as they aged. But to call that range is misleading. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:07:22 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation > > I'd like to believe her, but I think she may be covering up > > her inner feelings here. Or, at least, she is not being totally > > candid with us. That is certainly understandable given the > > circumstances. > > Al, you seem to be castigating Joni for not adhering to some Age of Aquarius > "code". You sound like an inquisitor from the Magdalene Laundries and a > moralist of your own fashion. To the contrary, I do not judge Joni Mitchell, I merely seek to understand her. I do not promote any ethic which says that a woman cannot responsibly give up her own child. In fact, I will hereby publicly commend ALL those who do, and who have done so in the past. Originally, I just figured that Joni was very young. When I think back to how immature I was at age 19, I could easily chalk up the adoption to simply not being ready for that kind of responsibility. But if that is (or was) the case, there is no shame in admitting it, is there? With all the subterfuge and mystery, it seems that there is more to it. It just gets curiouser and curiouser. I have not been a mother, but when I held my babies in my arms for the first time, I knew that it was forever-- and most parents have told me the same thing. Sometimes they can't even get a surrogate mother to let go! So, I have a hard time *relating* to giving up children, and I am looking for some definitive central motivation for Joni to give her child up, which *I* can understand. But "having a hard time relating to something" is not necessarily judgmental, Kakki, at least not in my book. I have suggested that she may have had a self-imposed inquisition, that she inherited or imagined from her upbringing. If I take ANY position on this, it is that nobody should have to spend their life in fear of not being accepted--whether it is by an audience, or by a spouse, or by a matriarch. It implies a self-imposed lack of freedom and fulfillment which needs to be fixed before time runs out. Whether that applies to Joni, I do not know, and I hope I am wrong. > > The reason I find this so exceptional is that artists have a much > > greater opportunity to transcend society's mores than do the rest of > > us. Joni said herself that artists do better when they are suffering. > > Working through that suffering gives honest motivation to the > > artist, and hopefully some degree of emotional growth. > > You make it sound like she, and artists in general, somehow owe society an > obligation to use such traumatic, personal experiences in their work. Ugh. That's not what I said, and I did not in any way intend to imply it. *Joni Mitchell* is the person who said that artists do better while working through suffering--in the interview with Morissey. I would think that GENERALLY artists gain freedom; ie, they are non-conformists, at the expense of comfort and security. Otherwise, why go through it? Perhaps Joni feared the loss of freedom related to child-rearing. I can certainly relate to that. - --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:22:17 -0700 From: Anne Madden Subject: Townes Van Zandt I have been looking everywhere for a copy of the Tribute to Townes Van Zandt featuring Nanci Griffith, McGarrigles, Emmylou Harris, Steve Earle, etc. which aired about 6-8 weeks ago on PBS - Austin City Limits. In Canada we don't get this show. Can anyone please help! Anne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:28:34 -0700 From: Michael Heath Subject: Re: Joni's Voice Linda Brady wrote: > I've decided that the answer to Joni's *alleged* off-key vocals is: she was > singing whilst trying to play the nanoguitar. :) > > Don said: > >I think it much more likely > > that she is stretching harmonically, > > I'll agree with you that she's stretching...:) but I think putting it down > to the complex nature of the production and "harmonics" is being *very, > very* kind to Joni. Very generous, and I am all for generosity, but I > choose to give to the homeless :) kidding, kidding. > > How come the most sonically compex album of all-time, "Sgt Pepper" doesn't > have these so-called "harmonic stretches?"(e.g., off-key vocals)? Because > the four Beatles's voices were able to reach the notes. Because they were particularly thinking about being great vocalists and more than they were thinking about being great instrumentalists...they were concentrating on being great songwriters and rocknroll stars. > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:07:24 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: Re: Joni's Voice - -----Original Message----- From: Julie Z. Webb >music from long ago, ----- serves as a motivating factor to adjust to the >voice of the new sounding Joni. It's as if I listen to her now for what >she was...but in doing so, I discover that Im sometimes, not always, >enchanted by her new work. The following is a cheap comparison, but it's I just jumped on this thread, so if the thoughts I happen to be rambling into the air don't make sense then blame it on sunstroke, or inhaling household cleaning chemeical fumes or whatever ... Although her vocal range has perhaps become more limited with age (and in reality, I don't think it's limited so much as it just continues to get deeper and deeper) I don't tend to agree that her singing is any worse or more off-key than at any point previous and if anything was lacking on Dog Eat Dog or Chalk Mark I tend to think it was induced by the production or the music rather than a flaw in her voice. Someone mentioned a comparison to "Sgt. Pepper". While it may or may not be "the most sonically complex album of all-time" musically, I don't think there was much, if any, true experimentation in the vocals that would have required them to stretch. OK, so there's no doubt that her voice has changed but people change everyday, as they grow older, as they learn more, etc...so it's kind of unfair, I think, to compare something she does now vs something she did 20 years ago. That was a different person who sang on Court & Spark than we hear today singing on Harlem. Some of the vocals on Ladies Of The Canyon were wonderful and fit the tone of the music beautifully but I'd hate to hear that same voice today singing on Turbulent Indigo. What her current voice might lack in range or fluidity it more than makes up for in maturity, experience and warmth. Whenever I buy a new album (whether it be by Joni or anyone else), I accept it for what it is and let it stand on it's own merits without comparison to anything else. I never say to my self "oh this is so much worse than the last one" or "gee, she really did better this time". Whether it be Blue, HOSL, or TI...I think they're all great in their own right. Now, granted, I've lived the last 22 years of my life with Recurrent Respiratory Papilloma, leaving me with on often deep, slightly raspy but still flexible and useful voice so maybe I just enjoy hearing another one on record but she sounds just wonderful to me...and that's what counts. >all I can think of at this time: When my daughter saw "The Horse >Whisperer" she was disturbed with the pairing up of Kristin Scott Thomas >and Robert Redford. She thought he was an old man. But I didn't notice >his wrinkles. He was still the Sundance Kid to me making another really >good movie. I can't say that I actually look at RR and see an "old" man but I did think the pairing was a tad off. I know the role was originally offered to Emma Thompson and I tend to think she would have made a better fit. John The Rambling Man ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:05:07 EDT From: RMuRocks@aol.com Subject: Misc; Laura Nyro follow-up Well, I got paid today and went to the record store to get some Laura Nyro (was looking for Xmas or Tendaberry) and to order the HDCD of Shadows & Light (thanks to the list I knew not to get the "Reader's Digest" version. The Bad news: No Laura Nyro except "Walk the Dog" which I've heard and wasn't ga-ga about and the 2-disc tribute, which I was tempted to get in lieu of the single discs. Anyway, the good news is I went to the Joni section and there was the 2-Disc HDCD Shadows & Light" - thank you, God! And only 12.99 for the set! Now mind you, I've had a dub of S&L all these years on cassette, but I'm looking forward to hearing this version. I also picked up the new/final Jeff Buckley, which is good, and another XTC "English Settlement". Thanks, Medric in MS for sticking up for the Allmans. It was ironic; before the "coaster posters" I had 'Brothers & Sisters' in my car changer along with HOSL and C&S, and it all sounded great to me. Maybe there's a happy merger (Free Ramblin' Man in Paris). If anyone's keeping track, I like Joni's voice better now than in her "top of the head" soprano days - but don't get me wrong, I like it all. That's it for now - Linda Brady, you're off the Laura Nyro hook for awhile :^) Bob M. in SC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:15:43 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: Re: Madonna/Prince - -----Original Message----- From: jan gyn >McDonna? >Is she going to 'vogue' on this? >I don't mind McDonna as a dance music type, I have a CD or two, but I don't >see her doing Joni (without getting ill, that is)... >But I wouldn't mind a Bjork version of 'You turn me on, I'm a radio'. There's an old saying I love that goes something like "If you don't have anything nice to say about anyone then please, please come sit with me ." Seriously, I have no problem with Madonna doing any Joni song she wants. I really don't think people give her enough credit simply because of her previous image. Personally, I think her latest "Ray Of Light" is a truly great album and her vocals have improved incredibly since her last full release. Bjork, frankly, wouldn't do too much for me I don't think... Though I'd love to see Prince do a cover of something (Cold Blue Steel & Sweet Fire, The Jungle Line???) BTW, he has a new album due out on the 30th for those interested. John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:11:29 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: RE: Joni mother-shame fixation > You know, Al, I feel like you're not hearing everything I have said - > like you're taking stuff I have said out of the whole context and trying > to use it to prove your baseless theory. I can see how that would be frustrating, especially if it actually did advance my theory in some way. > 1. You have never been a mother, so you can't understand fully how a > mother could come to the decision of giving up her child. Being a parent who helped raise his own kids, I do have a hard time with giving them up. But wondering HOW or WHY is not the same as condemnation--it is more like abject flabbergasted wonderment. > 2. I find the premise of Joni's "fear of her mother" (which, in itself, > is open to question) as a primary factor in her decision rather weak. Well, I think it is more like the fear of hurting her mother's feelings, but maybe it is more essentially the fear of lost freedom. I dont know. > 3. That she didn't tell her parents about the baby is another issue > which may have been motivated by a desire to protect them from community > disapproval. Certainly could be. But it seems to me that this does more to strengthen my case, than to strengthen the "economic hardship" case. It just SEEMS that way to ME, OK Marian? Can you see how it MIGHT SEEM THAT WAY TO ME? Isn't that choosing the grandparents over the child? (Btw, Mark, a figurative "Sophie's Choice" does not have to have Nazis involved in it). > 4. The bottom line is that giving her child up for adoption was the > best decision for Joni and for her child, for emotional, economic and > artistic reasons which are included in my previous post. Fine, but that speaks from the glorious 20/20 of hindsight, and does not really address my question as to gut-motivation at the time, which we can only speculate on. > >Marian says: > > >And, the fact that she "pleads the Fifth" on this subject > > Maybe she "pleads the Fifth" as you put it, because it really isn't > anyone's business but her own, Al. Well, on one level, I agree with you, Marian, it is none of my damn business. But you know how it is to be a public figure. And, in general, Joni stated VERY EARLY ON a conscious desire for her fans to KNOW HER, to KNOW WHAT THEY ARE WORSHIPPING. So, having once whetted our appetite for intimate knowledge, it is not so easy to turn it off. She has confessed to us enough material that we all feel like we know her to some extent. Which leads to some speculation on the yet unknown. I assure you that I love Joni, and I want the best for her. If she is fulfilled, and heart-free, then I am happy to be TOTALLY ABYSMALLY wrong. But her being a hopeless nicotine addict is not a good indicator of fulfillment, I am afraid. > >be embarassing. What could be more embarassing in the > >Age of Aquarius than giving up one's love-child to keep > >one's mum from being shamed? > > This is a really hollow interpretation, Al. And it is rank speculation. I'm speculating about what would have embarassed her NOT ONLY at the time, but over the rest of her life. Most women who give up their children seem to not only understand EXACTLY why, but they are very open about it, and everyone understands. Why does this not apply to Joni? And even if it did not apply in 1964, why would it still not today? I have more questions than answers. > >*Shunning.* That is exactly it. She is afraid of being shunned. > > Out of context!!! I was referring to how she could at 50+ years of age > still be hurt by her mother's disapproval - because rejection is painful > - and trying to say that that isn't necessarily a proof of a need for > psychological growth and/or detachment from loved ones. I'll take your word for it, and thank you for making my case. > >I don't see much evidence of economic hardship. > > How the hell do *you* know? Well, Joni said, in an interview at the time, that if music didn't work out that she could "always fall back on retailing," which she was very successful at back in Saskatchewan. So, I see "economic hardship" as a definite smoke-screen. I mean, there are millions and billions of babies born under true economic hardship, so I hate to see the concept trivialized. > >I do see a lot of shame-prevention antics, cover-up > > How dare you say that??? Marian, you yourself said it was amazing that she kept her pregnancy and childbirth totally covered up from her folks for almost two years--and for many years later even. All that lying strikes me as some kind of shame-control, or pretending that something didn't even happen. How would you describe it? > >and no willingness to set the record straight. > > She is not obliged to do this for anyone! Least of all you or me! > > I can't stand this discussion anymore! Thanks for your honesty and intensity. - --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:13:17 -0700 From: davina@pacificsw.com (Davina Greenstein) Subject: List Problems Is anyone else not receiving list mail? I've received only a few posts since Thursday morning... - -Davina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:13:14 -0400 From: "Eric W Taylor" Subject: Candle Flame Returned/Joni's Voice Linda Brady wrote: >Joni is off-key. She's not playing with harmonics, >she simply no longer has the equipment to reach >some of the notes she tries for. Okay, name some examples. I can't think of one. I think Joni's voice improves with each album and I have been a vocalist for 20 years. The only time I remember Joni being off-key was her piano on Paprika Plains, and she did that on purpose. She discovered that "all notes resolve back to middle C" in the process and it was this song that convinced Charles Mingus to colaborate with her. Saying Joni sings off-key is like saying Van Gogh paints sloppy. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:32:09 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: Parental influence Julie Webb adds: > The following story will give you an idea of the times "back then": When > I entered high school, my father gave my sister and I "The Talk." He he > had an intense, uncomfortable, Don Rickles- look about him and then he > spoke. He told us that if either my sister and I ever became pregnant > prior to marriage, we should simply jump off of our hometown bridge. Of > course, my sister and I snickered and rolled our eyes and yelled, "Mom, can > you believe he said that?!?!?!" But when all was said and done, we got > the message. Julie, It is very enlightening to hear the scare-tactics used by parents, even by good loving parents. I had a similar mind-trip laid on me, "that I damn well better not get married before I was 30." Well, it worked, I didn't get married or have kids until I was 31. But I have always had an agonizing hole in my heart for the one who I let slip away when I was 20. So, I can *definitely* relate to the programming effects of parental influence, and maybe that's why I project it onto Joni Mitchell, especially when she admits to so much tension there even at age 50. Thanks, Julie. - --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:47:26 -0700 From: Ginny McCord Subject: Re: Candle Flame Returned/Joni's Voice Eric W Taylor wrote: > Saying Joni sings off-key is like saying Van Gogh paints sloppy. > E.T. Bravo! My feelings exactly. Ginny ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:38:47 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Janet & the BOBW IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-06-26 09:34:53 EDT, dgrowe@hotmail.com writes: > > << depth and resonance, the means whereby emotion and pain if forced into > the vessel of the lyrics. Later Billie Holliday (Joni's own idol) was > essential in this quality ... and one that I think "Beat of Black Wings" > requires. >> > > Range is not depth and resonance. Those factors might give her voice more > "quality,' at least to your ear, but you certainly are misusing "range" to > cite those factors. There's no question Joni lacks the range she once had. > What you are saying, I believe, and it may be hard to argue the point, is that > Joni and Billie Holiday developed more quality and emotion to their singing > voice as they aged. > But to call that range is misleading. > > Paul I Paul, beautifully said--and this is what I mean. I love her voice and . . . well, you said it best. Thanks. - -- Howard Motyl Producer, MPI Teleproductions 16101 South 108th Avenue Orland Park, IL 60462 708-873-3190 708.873.3177 Fax http://www.mpimedia.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:42:57 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: JM's voice Howard Motyl brought up the question of Joni's voice, and I'm curious to know what the general opinion is on the list about Joni's singing. To me her recent singing is in many ways stronger than ever. There's a certain husky lightness to her voice, weighted with a depth of emotion, and delivered with inspired phrasing and timing. I think in great part it was her voice that gave such power to the recent live performances of Amelia, Slouching Towards Bethlehem, and The Magdelene Launderies. And her jazz singing on Harlem In Havana is so good -- such unique phrasing, and such delicacy, skill, and playfulness! I know some miss the sweet soprano of years gone by, but I love the way she's singing now. ******My issue is not with the quality of Joni's voice--I like what the smoke and age have done to it--I really do. What I took issue with is saying that she has great range. And I will only say that Paul said it best in a previous message so I will not repeat it here. Her live performance of Amelia changed my entire feeling of the song and its place in her amazing canon. - -- Howard Motyl Producer, MPI Teleproductions 16101 South 108th Avenue Orland Park, IL 60462 708-873-3190 708.873.3177 Fax http://www.mpimedia.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:49:32 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni's Voice In a message dated 98-06-26 19:18:49 EDT, EWWTAYLOR@Prodigy.net writes: << Saying Joni sings off-key is like saying Van Gogh paints sloppy. >> Vincent's mom says: "VINCENT VAN GOGH, you get right back here and clean up this mess! There's paint all over the walls and the floor. And WHAT shade of red paint is THIS? VINCENT, look at me. What happened to your EAR!?!?! My goodness, I guess you're not going to be allowed to play with your paint set for a month!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:54:03 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: JM's voice << To me her recent singing is in many ways stronger than ever. There's a certain husky lightness to her voice, weighted with a depth of emotion, and delivered with inspired phrasing and timing. >> I submit that all those factors fall under the single category of "maturity." Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:20:24 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Madonna covering Joni Jan wrote: <<>> Yeah, "Live to Tell," "Promise to Try," "Rain," "Oh Father," and "Take a Bow" are among my favorite dance songs of all time. [Yes, that was sarcasm] This thread has some synchronicity for me as I just put Madonna's cover of Marvin Gaye's "I Want You" on that cover tape I made, and I was actually thinking about what Joni songs would suit her. The "I Want You" cover is truly stunning. Massive Attack did the back-up track. The production is stretched and symphonic, punctuated with soft, metallic hip-hop beats, and the vocal performance of Madonna's career rides and yearns on top. It's so, so beautiful. I actually ever- so-slightly prefer it to the original, and, as a hard-core soul fan, I do *not* say that lightly. If you really want Maddie on the Joni tribute album, send Ms. Mitchell a tape of this track. Incidentally, that track opened Maddie's recent *ballads* collection. Do you like her as a slow-dance music type, Jan? ;-) If I were the executive producer of the Joni cover album, I would give Madonna two suggestions. "Down to You," with production along the lines of "I Want You" but more spacious and blippy. She would do well to stick with William Orbit for this; they've collaborated so beautifully on her latest album, and I think this could turn into a better "Mer Girl" if done right. The other suggestion would be an all-out dancefloor rave-up version of "Black Crow," replete with wooden breakbeats and diving, diving, diving. And I would give Bjork "Shadows and Light" to play with and return whatever her mind invents. - --Michael NP: Ruth Brown, _Miss Rhythm: Greatest Hits and More_ "Madonna is the speedboat and the rest of us are just the Go-Go's on water-skis." --Liz Phair ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:26:36 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Re: Joni's voice Hello again folks, Someone (I don't remember who) solicited opinions from this group regarding Joni's voice, and someone else wanted to know if the opinion comes from a musician or non-musician. OK, here is my opinion... Joni's voice, IMO, has declined quite a bit *technically* since her early years. Melodic Range...less Agility...less Variation in Color...less Ease of Execution...less Use of Dynamic Range (soft/loud)...less Expression of Emotion...less Most of these changes happen to all vocalists as they age. It's not Joni's fault, just a cruel joke God plays (on all of us). Joan Baez's first three albums are equally stunning in terms of the purity and technical excellence of her voice. Then it too began to change. However, I think Joni has developed *musically* to compensate for the decline of her "instrument". The force of a mature artist, a strong character with a sense of values and principals, comes through loud and clear in CD's like NRH & TI. To those who know her and love her, this personality is as compelling as it ever was, perhaps more so. Nothing has been lost across the years. But to folks who are unfamiliar with her life and works (and loves), I don't think her voice *commands* attention and listening with both ears the way it did back in the "Blue" days. Also, her music (composition) is more sophisticated now, and IMO less accessible in an immediate sense. It requires a bit of purposeful exploration before all the subtleties can be perceived and appreciated. Her voice *used* to hypnotize one into listening, establishing a gradient of interest, and the composition (lyrics, harmonic structure, orchestration, etc.) was then the obvious path of further exploration which followed naturally. Don't misunderstand me. I think Joni is one of three or four popular musical artists in the second half of the 20th century whose recordings and works will survive well beyond her own lifetime. I think she's terrific. But her voice isn't getting better - she has learned to adopt what she still has left in the service of her music amazingly well. I won't buy TTT hoping to hear another Blue, I'll buy it to get another hit from this remarkable artist who has influenced my life so much. But as a generalization, the children of my age group don't have much interest in her values, her lyrics or her compositions, and the vehicle that once reached out and grabbed you, *her voice*, now only hypnotizes the initiated. I played banjo and guitar in a bluegrass band at the age of 15, graduated to rock & roll in the late sixties, earned a music degree (in performance) from Lewis and Clark College, played violoncello professionally for 10 years with the Oregon Symphony, later took up pedal steel guitar, now compose electronic music. So much for the second part... Brian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:42:59 +0100 From: Linda Brady Subject: Re: Joni's voice I had written a long post defending my opinion on Joni's voice and then heard Stan from South Park say: "You have mail! You bastard!" and found Brian's post in my inbox. I read it and immediately I deleted mine, because Brian's post says *exactly* what I've been trying to say, and in so many less words! Thanks Brian, for expressing it better than I could. Linda - ---------- > From: Odlum, Brian > To: JMDL > Subject: Re: Joni's voice > Date: 27 June 1998 01:26 > > Hello again folks, > > Someone (I don't remember who) solicited opinions from this group regarding > Joni's voice, and someone else wanted to know if the opinion comes from a > musician or non-musician. OK, here is my opinion... > > Joni's voice, IMO, has declined quite a bit *technically* since her early > years. > > Melodic Range...less > Agility...less > Variation in Color...less > Ease of Execution...less > Use of Dynamic Range (soft/loud)...less > Expression of Emotion...less > > Most of these changes happen to all vocalists as they age. It's not Joni's > fault, just a cruel joke God plays (on all of us). Joan Baez's first three > albums are equally stunning in terms of the purity and technical excellence > of her voice. Then it too began to change. > > However, I think Joni has developed *musically* to compensate for the > decline of her "instrument". The force of a mature artist, a strong > character with a sense of values and principals, comes through loud and > clear in CD's like NRH & TI. To those who know her and love her, this > personality is as compelling as it ever was, perhaps more so. Nothing has > been lost across the years. But to folks who are unfamiliar with her life > and works (and loves), I don't think her voice *commands* attention and > listening with both ears the way it did back in the "Blue" days. Also, her > music (composition) is more sophisticated now, and IMO less accessible in > an immediate sense. It requires a bit of purposeful exploration before all > the subtleties can be perceived and appreciated. Her voice *used* to > hypnotize one into listening, establishing a gradient of interest, and the > composition (lyrics, harmonic structure, orchestration, etc.) was then the > obvious path of further exploration which followed naturally. > > Don't misunderstand me. I think Joni is one of three or four popular > musical artists in the second half of the 20th century whose recordings and > works will survive well beyond her own lifetime. I think she's terrific. > But her voice isn't getting better - she has learned to adopt what she > still has left in the service of her music amazingly well. I won't buy TTT > hoping to hear another Blue, I'll buy it to get another hit from this > remarkable artist who has influenced my life so much. But as a > generalization, the children of my age group don't have much interest in > her values, her lyrics or her compositions, and the vehicle that once > reached out and grabbed you, *her voice*, now only hypnotizes the > initiated. > > I played banjo and guitar in a bluegrass band at the age of 15, graduated > to rock & roll in the late sixties, earned a music degree (in performance) > from Lewis and Clark College, played violoncello professionally for 10 > years with the Oregon Symphony, later took up pedal steel guitar, now > compose electronic music. So much for the second part... > > Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:08:21 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: Madonna covering Joni I could hear Madonna covering one of the funkier (relatively speaking) songs on HOSL -- In France They Kiss on Main Street, or Don't Interrupt the Sorrow. - --David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:16:48 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Joni's Voice [ long ] > >Look, I love Joni, but I am also willing to examine her (few) faults, and >one of them is that her voice has not aged gracefully. >Linda It's interesting to notice that many of us musicians have focused our first posts to the list on what I too consider the undeniable decline of Joni's voice during the 80's. I admit that I know other musicians on the list that do not agree on this point and some that even feel that this change in Joni's vocal skills has turned out to be for the better in terms of expressiveness, maturity, etc.. I will state, as I did in my first post to the list, that I would find it impossible to hold this view and still respect myself as a musician and as a singer. The decline of a voice is a fact of life that must be faced by singers and fans alike. By the decline of one's voice I mean the partial or total loss of control over one's instrument much like the case of the pianist whose muscles have atrophied or the violinist that tries to play on a stringless violin. This situation is often reflected in the inability to perform what once was one's repertoire. It's also true that one can adapt to this change -- many times a real life crisis for the artist -- by making wise choices and not attempting impossible feats. This decision is excruciatingly difficult for us singers to make: it is tantamount to admitting the imminence of death, and I am not exaggerating a bit. Maria Callas lost her instrument, and could neither replace it nor accept the loss. She outlived her voice by a only few years. Another vocal miracle, Birgit Nilsson, was more practical about it. She said, "The time has come to consign my singing to the shower", and she retired in all her glory. Some of the material that Joni has written in the recent past is not suitable for the present state of her voice. It was very disappointing to hear Slouching for the first time when NRH came out and love it exactly until Joni comes to the word "hear" [ 0:36], her voice futilely attempting to reach a high note while leveraging on a jarring "r" sound. Composing is, among other things, a decision-making process. Wisdom should prevail. [ I want to make clear that I like Slouching, especially the "head of maaaaaaan" part. I can almost overlook the aggravating bass line, so evocative of "The Boxer", missing only the cracking whips.] Joni hasn't simply cast off a voice as a snake would slough his skin and replaced it by another. Many singers have done that, changing registers from higher to lower or vice versa. To my mind and to my ear, this is not Joni's case. Joni is playing on a damaged instrument, and merely lowering her pitch won't help much. I understand that many, many fans of Joni may not mind this contingency -- the decline of her voice -- or even notice it. It is perfectly all right! In my case, taking such a stand would constitute the ultimate act of hypocrisy and self-deceit. Please understand that I love Joni and her work at least as much as anybody else on this list, so don't write back to ask me why I'm on this list if I think this way or to tell me I don't deserve to call myself a Joni fan. I'm still looking forward to being surprised, shocked, seduced and all the other things that Joni does to me when I listen to her new material for the first time. I have become bored with other artists. I don't foresee this ever happening with Joni. Still, three facts remain true: 1- her voice has declined; 2- some fans are burying their heads in the sand, and 3- Joni is much more than only her voice, so what's the big deal. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:49:00 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: piano on plains The only time I remember Joni being off-key was her piano on >Paprika Plains, and she did that on purpose. > E.T. This is the second time that someone has mentioned the out-of-tune piano on Plains. Will somebody better endowed [ aurally] than I please indicate a passage where this is evident? I hear dissonance, but the piano sounds well-tuned to me. WallyK ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #224 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?