From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #223 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, June 26 1998 Volume 03 : Number 223 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Interior Design and Decoration 101 [Bounced Message ] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation ["Patricia O'Connor" ] Re: Madonna's tribute [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Respect and lack of it [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation ["Kakki" ] Joni's Voice [davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine)] re: Respect and lack of it [Robert Holliston ] A DAY IN THE GARDEN ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Re: Joni's Voice [Linda Brady ] Re: you're kidding, right? (tee hee) ["Deb Messling" ] Fwd: Joni's Voice sans flame. [MDESTE1@aol.com] Re: Nancy Griffith (was re:Emmylou And Iris) [Bill Dollinger ] Re: you're kidding, right? [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Little Green [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Little Green [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] [none] [Hassan Zubairi ] Re: [Michael Heath ] Re: jonis 1st album [jan gyn ] Framing thanks! (And Woodstock) [Steve Dulson ] Re: jonis 1st album [Michael Heath ] Re: jonis 1st album ["John T. Folden" ] Re: Madonna's tribute ["John T. Folden" ] Re: Joni's Voice and FLA.ME for Linda [Bounced Message ] Re: Little Green ["Deb Messling" ] Re: Lilith Fair (SJC, more of mariana's life, ect..) [jan gyn ] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [jan gyn ] Re: Linda's Joni's Voice &Joni's guitar ["Don Rowe" ] the human voice as a window to the soul [joe horne ] Re: smallest musical instrument (NJC) [Susan McNamara ] Re: The Dancin' Close and Slow thread [Susan McNamara ] Re: Blue Motel Room & Strange Boy [Susan McNamara ] Re: Candle Flame Returned/Joni's Voice ["Don Rowe" ] Re: Lost Verse of MATW [Susan McNamara ] Re: smallest musical instrument (NJC) [jan gyn ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:06:26 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Interior Design and Decoration 101 From: DKasc13293@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:31:09 EDT Interior Design and Decoration 101 :) The color I am referring to is in the spruce family. Green is considered a nuetral color. So, you should not have a problem with respect to coordinating decor. If you are really anal retentive about being matchy-matchy, which is not a theory I su.bsc.ribe to (we call that "motel decorating"), then you should not worry with this color. Look at all the greenery in nature, then think of a flower color that doesn't work with a leaf. With respect to covering a signature and the devaluation of a piece of art; you shouldn't concern yourself with that. Where the authentic signature is certainly the most important part of the value of the piece, the condition is also key (Warhol prints have sold for six figures with signature in excellent condition and the same print can sell for five figures in good condition). You don't devalue a picture by the matte decision you make. Keep in mind though, that over time, no matter how good the acid free paper is, or the glass is for that matter, the picture is going to fade some. So, when the matte board is removed, you're going to see discoloration. Wolfebite may know something as well. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:22:51 -0400 From: "Patricia O'Connor" Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation Al Date analysized: >And maybe she is, subliminally or subconsciously, >speaking about her own personal Mother Superior >who she earlier described as "always cleaning," and >trying "to show her the deeper meaning." > >Sounds to me like one of those bloodless brides of Jesus. OK I'll buy your argument for a minute: The Magdalene Laundries isn't about workhouses for "fallen women" on a poverty stricken, politically and religiously oppressed island, which in recent history has seen 1.5 million starved for want of potatoes and another 1.5 million people immigrate to avoid that fate, but I digress: it's a metaphor for how Joni's mother MADE her life the unfulfilled, half lived one, that it sadly is. Do you think...if I buy the wool... she'll make me one too? Patty O'Connor who on first listen to Magdalene Laundries went running to peruse the lyrics sheet on the "Peg O'Connell died today" line...it was kind of a Huck Finn moment, thought I was hearing my own obituary... didn't blame it on my mother at the time, but now that I think about it... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 01:30:21 -0700 From: Susan Chaloner Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation M.Russell@iaea.org wrote: > Maybe she "pleads the Fifth" as you put it, because it really isn't > anyone's business but her own, Al. Well said Marion!!! Stuff it up your ass and rotate Al! :~D I have been extremely busy lately-I owe a number of jimdlers letters which I hope to get to this weekend-but even so I have noted your behaviour Al and I'm wondering why you are investing so much energy just trying to get a rise out of people here: in other words, baiting? Such a waste! What's your motivation? Trying to increase list traffic? Couldn't you do it in a more positive fashion? > >I don't see much evidence of economic hardship. > > How the hell do *you* know? I doubt he does know! Have you ever lived on the Canadian prairies Al? I have...To this day the economically rich are economically poor there in comparison to other places...More so when Joni lived there... > I can't stand this discussion anymore! Me either Marion!!! Let's go "...dancing With the drag queens and the punks Big beat deliver me from this sanctimonious skunk..."-JoniM - -- Susan L.A. I'm thinking of you Wally...You will Breese through treatment...if you ever need a driver you can call on me! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 04:32:09 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Madonna's tribute In a message dated 98-06-26 02:02:00 EDT, Gellerray@aol.com writes: << we became a tad obsessed (for the twenty minutes we discussed it, six months ago now) with finding the right song for Madonna to sing (my shield is up, saints protect me), even though, as far as i know, Madonna is not slated. Anyway, we--he and I--thought of some good ones, but I wanna know, what do others think? Personally I am pretty convinced it should be something pre- Hissing, and, for some reason I think that she'd do well to mine Ladies of the Canyon! (I mean the whole album). Does anybody care enough to venture? ... Madonna and Circle Game--isn't there a certain beauty there, somehow? >> I don't see that one at all. Madonna and Circle Game? Those are the kinds of thoughts that would give ME a nervous breakdown! However, maybe "Raised on Robbery" would be more her style. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:45:32 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Respect and lack of it You know, I feel like this whole discussion on adoption and Joni's reasons borders on total disrespect for her and I am very uncomfortable with that. And that's why I expressed myself so angrily in my last post to the list and to Al. How dare we dissect her life and her personal decisions? I was trying to bring some understanding to the issue of adoption from my own personal experience, and to defend Joni from how I personally see her (as a really together, creative and strong woman), but I feel like my words have been all twisted around by Al to prove a silly point and that makes me feel very angry. I feel almost sorry that I participated in this discussion at all. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 01:54:28 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation Al replied to Marian: > And, the fact that she "pleads the Fifth" on this subject > indicates to me that she is hiding something which would > be embarassing. What could be more embarassing in the > Age of Aquarius than giving up one's love-child to keep > one's mum from being shamed? > I'd like to believe her, but I think she may be covering up > her inner feelings here. Or, at least, she is not being totally > candid with us. That is certainly understandable given the > circumstances. Al, you seem to be castigating Joni for not adhering to some Age of Aquarius "code". You sound like an inquisitor from the Magdalene Laundries and a moralist of your own fashion. > The reason I find this so exceptional is that artists have a much > greater opportunity to transcend society's mores than do the rest of > us. Joni said herself that artists do better when they are suffering. > Working through that suffering gives honest motivation to the > artist, and hopefully some degree of emotional growth. You make it sound like she, and artists in general, somehow owe society an obligation to use such traumatic, personal experiences in their work. Ugh. > Sounds to me like one of those bloodless brides of Jesus. Double ugh. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:53:49 -0700 (PDT) From: davidmarine@webtv.net (David Marine) Subject: Joni's Voice Howard Motyl brought up the question of Joni's voice, and I'm curious to know what the general opinion is on the list about Joni's singing. To me her recent singing is in many ways stronger than ever. There's a certain husky lightness to her voice, weighted with a depth of emotion, and delivered with inspired phrasing and timing. I think in great part it was her voice that gave such power to the recent live performances of Amelia, Slouching Towards Bethlehem, and The Magdelene Launderies. And her jazz singing on Harlem In Havana is so good -- such unique phrasing, and such delicacy, skill, and playfulness! I know some miss the sweet soprano of years gone by, but I love the way she's singing now. Peace, David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 03:28:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: Respect and lack of it Marian wrote: > You know, I feel like this whole discussion on adoption and Joni's reasons > borders on total disrespect for her and I am very uncomfortable with that. I am, too! Joni does not owe anyone an explanation for any decisions she has made in her private life. She certainly didn't "take the fifth" - she wasn't on trial! > ...I feel like my words have been all twisted around by Al to prove a silly > point and that makes me feel very angry. Marian, your thoughtful remarks have either been twisted around, wilfully misunderstood, or ignored. You have every right to feel very angry!! > I feel almost sorry that I participated in this discussion at all. Marian, that statement made me feel very sad: I thought your contributions were rational, impassioned, reasonable, and well-expressed. Some people have their agendas, I guess, and are thus impervious to reason. Al has, throughout this "debate," exhibited little but contempt for other people's thoughts. Susan LA wrote: > Stuff it up your ass and rotate Al! :-D Without the emoticon (Susan LA is a much nicer person than I am), I heartily concur! Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:14:06 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: A DAY IN THE GARDEN HUGE COLORFUL FULL PAGE ADD IN TODAY'S NEW YORK TIMES OF: A DAY IN THE GARDEN. AN ILLUSTRATION OF A GUITAR AND FIELD FLOWERS BLOOMING FROM THE TOPS OF GUITAR STRINGS over a yellow background. AT THE TOP LEFT HAND SIDE: 1. DON HENLEY 2. STEVEI NICKS AND UNDER THAT ZIGGY MARLEY AND TEN YEARS AFTER ALL FOR FRIDAY'S SHOW aT THE BOTTOM RIGHT CORNER FOR SATURDAY: 1. PETE TOWNSEND 2. JONI MITCHELL SPECIAL GUEST STARS: lOU REED AND RICHIE HAVENS. Julie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:21:22 +0100 From: Linda Brady Subject: Re: Joni's Voice I have to express a most likely unpopular opinion about Joni's voice. I think it has drastically declined over the last ten or so years, to the point where I enjoy her music a lot less. When I play "For the Roses," that voice, *that voice* just resonates in a free way, uninhibited. Now, I think her voice is incredibly inhibited, often off-key, and unable to reach the notes it used to, and often unable to reach the notes it tries to. Much as I try, I can't seem to find the smoke-induced changes in her voice to be for the better. That said, I still love her music and songwriting--"Turbulent Indigo" was amazing--but I really wish her voice hadn't morphed into what it is today. When I think of Joni's "voice" I think of "Blue," and the absolutely jaw-dropping moment I had when I first heard that woman sing. And even during "Hejira" and "Don Juan" when her voice was just starting to get deeper, it still sounded good, because there was no sense of her struggling to stay on-key. But sometime in the 80s it really reached a point where it sounded like Joni was straining. I don't think her husky singing is true to her, like say, Chrissie Hynde's is. Let the flames begin! :) Linda - ---------- > From: David Marine > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Joni's Voice > Date: 26 June 1998 10:53 > > Howard Motyl brought up the question of Joni's voice, and I'm curious to > know what the general opinion is on the list about Joni's singing. To > me her recent singing is in many ways stronger than ever. There's a > certain husky lightness to her voice, weighted with a depth of emotion, > and delivered with inspired phrasing and timing. I think in great part > it was her voice that gave such power to the recent live performances of > Amelia, Slouching Towards Bethlehem, and The Magdelene Launderies. And > her jazz singing on Harlem In Havana is so good -- such unique phrasing, > and such delicacy, skill, and playfulness! I know some miss the sweet > soprano of years gone by, but I love the way she's singing now. > > Peace, > > David > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:37:52 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: you're kidding, right? (tee hee) > MEA CULPA. MEA CULPA. SEND ME TO THE > MAGDELENA LAUNDRIES OR SOMETHING. YIKES. "Magedelena" laundries?? You're kidding, right? It's "Magdelene" laundries. Deb Messling "Without music, life would be an error." --Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:54:47 EDT From: MDESTE1@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Joni's Voice sans flame. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_898865688_boundary Content-ID: <0_898865688@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Let me be the first to disagree but to hopefully encourage those on the list to NOT "flame". Whats the point in doing so. Joni is definitely an "ageing children". Like an athletes legs the singer loses the range of youth. Joni's soprano scale of youth was nice but it wasnt what in my opinion differentiated her from the rest of female vocaldom. What made her special was her writing,composition and phrasing. Unless you are Frankie Valli it isnt your raison d'tere. Joni would be the first to tell us that she has physically changed and with that goes alot of things and thats life. Thats why Im glad she made records to capture it foreverf. On the other hand she couldnt have written Turbulent Indigo when she was 20 either. Now which do you want, the same old same old or a rich future filled with wonderful innovative evolution of the artist. Personally I will take the latter because thats life and I accept it. Of course I dont have that crossover dribble spin move and dunk anymore. Ce la vie. md - --part0_898865688_boundary Content-ID: <0_898865688@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (rly-zb05.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.5]) by air-zb05.mail.aol.com (v45.8) with SMTP; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:23:06 -0400 Received: from mermaid.shore.net (mermaid.shore.net [207.244.124.6]) by rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id IAA12505; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] by mermaid.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0ypXVd-000758-00; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:21:41 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id IAA13405; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:21:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id IAA13395 for joni-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.lancs.ac.uk (mail2.lancs.ac.uk [148.88.8.13]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with SMTP id IAA13391 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.lancs.ac.uk (actually host localhost) by mail2.lancs.ac.uk with Local SMTP (PP); Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:20:33 +0100 Received: from ufs1.lancs.ac.uk (ufs1-atm.lancs.ac.uk [194.80.32.60]) by mail2.lancs.ac.uk with SpooMTA 1.23; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:20:33 +0000 Received: from student203.lancs.ac.uk (dyn073.dhcp.lancs.ac.uk [148.88.240.115]) by ufs1.lancs.ac.uk (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA21856 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:20:27 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199806261220.NAA21856@ufs1.lancs.ac.uk> From: Linda Brady To: joni Subject: Re: Joni's Voice Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:21:22 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: Linda Brady Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I have to express a most likely unpopular opinion about Joni's voice. I think it has drastically declined over the last ten or so years, to the point where I enjoy her music a lot less. When I play "For the Roses," that voice, *that voice* just resonates in a free way, uninhibited. Now,= I think her voice is incredibly inhibited, often off-key, and unable to rea= ch the notes it used to, and often unable to reach the notes it tries to. Much as I try, I can't seem to find the smoke-induced changes in her voic= e to be for the better. That said, I still love her music and songwriting--"Turbulent Indigo" was amazing--but I really wish her voice hadn't morphed into what it is today= . When I think of Joni's "voice" I think of "Blue," and the absolutely jaw-dropping moment I had when I first heard that woman sing. And even during "Hejira" and "Don Juan" when her voice was just starting to get deeper, it still sounded good, because there was no sense of her struggli= ng to stay on-key. But sometime in the 80s it really reached a point where = it sounded like Joni was straining. I don't think her husky singing is true to her, like say, Chrissie Hynde's is. Let the flames begin! :) Linda - ---------- > From: David Marine > To: joni@smoe.org > Subject: Joni's Voice > Date: 26 June 1998 10:53 > > Howard Motyl brought up the question of Joni's voice, and I'm curious t= o > know what the general opinion is on the list about Joni's singing. To > me her recent singing is in many ways stronger than ever. There's a > certain husky lightness to her voice, weighted with a depth of emotion, > and delivered with inspired phrasing and timing. I think in great part > it was her voice that gave such power to the recent live performances o= f > Amelia, Slouching Towards Bethlehem, and The Magdelene Launderies. And > her jazz singing on Harlem In Havana is so good -- such unique phrasing= , > and such delicacy, skill, and playfulness! I know some miss the sweet > soprano of years gone by, but I love the way she's singing now. > > Peace, > > David > - --part0_898865688_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:27:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Nancy Griffith (was re:Emmylou And Iris) Other Voices Too is due out soon I believe. I forget who is going to be covered. I agree with Brian that this is a gem. The duet with Prine on Speed of the Sound of Loneliness is one of my favorite cuts. bill On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Brian Gross wrote: > "Other Voices, Other Rooms" is an absolute gem. There's not *one* bad track > on the entire album. > Nancy covers everyone from Townes Van Zandt to John Prine to Tom Paxton to > Ralph Mc Tell to Gordon Lightfoot to Bob Dylan to Woody Guthrie. A better > album of covers is not to be found anywhere. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 06:33:16 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Janet & the BOBW Easy there Obi-Wan, you can stow the light sabre ... at least long enough for me to maybe clarify things a bit. >Huh? Are you seriously gonna tell me that you think that Joni's >smoke-ravaged and aged voice has a great dynamic range? You better believe it. Range to me means more than the 16-bar sustinato of a Streisand, the "I wish I were Minnie Ripperton" wail of a Mariah Carey or the prolonged primal scream of a Janis Joplin. It is also depth and resonance, the means whereby emotion and pain if forced into the vessel of the lyrics. Later Billie Holliday (Joni's own idol) was essential in this quality ... and one that I think "Beat of Black Wings" requires. >And what exactly is wrong with Janet Jackson's >voice? You are admitting that you haven't heard her new stuff or >heard her for years, yet you are dissing her because she is doing a >tribute to an artist she admires and respects. What is up with that? In a word, nothing is wrong with Janet's voice. Strongest performer in the whole family if you want my humble opinion. And I think if she wants to do a tribute to Joni, more power to her ... but I'd personally rather hear her do "Coyote" or "Underneath the Streetlights" or "In France They Kiss on Mainstreet". >I've always wondered what other singers would do with those amazing >Joni songs. I love the way she does them, but what would someone >else do with them? A tribute album would give us all the chance to >hear them. Hey, let me assure you -- preachin' to the choir on this one! D Rowe > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:49:16 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: you're kidding, right? I think the heat's gotten to everyone. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:57:38 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Little Green In a message dated 6/25/98 10:27:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mwyarbro@zzapp.org writes: << Goddess knows she was probably a morass of different emotions at the time, and she just about captured all of them. >> Michael, Thoughtful post! I've also wondered when she wrote that song. Is it possible that it was written shortly after the birth/adoption but was recorded much later? Does anyone know how long some of her songs "sit" before she decides to record? Terry, adoptive mother ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 14:28:07 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Little Green Terry, You're kidding, right? Everyone knows that she wrote Little Green in 1967, she's told the story countless times :-) The only song of hers that I know "sat" for a while was Two Grey Rooms, but I'm not sure if it qualifies here, cause the music was composed 7 years before the lyrics, so it "sat" incomplete. She mentions that the music to Harlem in Havana was composed before the words, and that it "sat in the can for a while" as Zulu Tango, until she recalled a trip to a traveling show as a young teenager, and wrote the text. Also, at some performance shortly after Chalkmark's release she performed a "new song" called "4th of July" which came to be known as Night Ride Home. -Kenny TerryM2442@aol.com wrote: I've also wondered when she wrote that song. Is it possible that it was written shortly after the birth/adoption but was recorded much later? Does anyone know how long some of her songs "sit" before she decides to > record? > > Terry, adoptive mother ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:59:22 +-100 From: Hassan Zubairi Subject: [none] Why Joni tribute album? Is she dead? Please.....Joni covers album perhaps but tribute? That's a bit too much like worship Jamie Z ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:25:59 -0700 From: Michael Heath Subject: Re: Hassan Zubairi wrote: > Why Joni tribute album? Is she dead? Please.....Joni covers album perhaps but tribute? That's a bit too much like worship > Jamie Z I have a small altar in my living room with candles, pieces of shiny things, incense and a gilded framed picture of Godess Joni...I chant daily. cul :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:13:04 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: jonis 1st album At 05:40 PM 6/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >Joni's fist is called "Song to a Seagull" > What's her open hand called? 'Help Me'? - -jan :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:59:28 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Framing thanks! (And Woodstock) Thanks to all who responded, on- and off-list to the framing question. I passed on all your answers to Michele, who's going off tomorrow to do the frame shopping. I new I could get some good input from you guys! The Swami tells me that Joni will be doing about 20 of the songs that she did at the recent tapings (including "Trouble Man" - you're in for a treat!) with perhaps two more TTT songs included. Thought you might want to know. :) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:33:16 -0700 From: Michael Heath Subject: Re: jonis 1st album i swear one little typo and i get murdered...all funny though. jan gyn wrote: > At 05:40 PM 6/25/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Joni's fist is called "Song to a Seagull" > > > > What's her open hand called? 'Help Me'? > -jan :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:49:12 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: Re: jonis 1st album Actually, if we keep going we can either, a) invent a new Joni-only Anatomy Chart or b) come up with a JMDL spcific sign language. - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Heath >i swear one little typo and i get murdered...all funny though. > >jan gyn wrote: > >> At 05:40 PM 6/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >> >Joni's fist is called "Song to a Seagull" >> > >> >> What's her open hand called? 'Help Me'? >> -jan :) > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:53:52 -0400 From: "John T. Folden" Subject: Re: Madonna's tribute - -----Original Message----- From: IVPAUL42@aol.com >I don't see that one at all. Madonna and Circle Game? Those are the kinds of >thoughts that would give ME a nervous breakdown! >However, maybe "Raised on Robbery" would be more her style. Actually, I rather like the idea of Circle Game! However, I think something from C&S might be a bit more likely as I seem to remember Madonna mentioning that album in a couple of interviews. John NP: Lenny Kravitz 5 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:33:33 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Joni's Voice and FLA.ME for Linda Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:02:16 -0700 From: Michael Heath Hi, Don't worry...its just a candle flame... Linda Brady wrote: > I have to express a most likely unpopular opinion about Joni's voice. I > think it has drastically declined over the last ten or so years, to the > point where I enjoy her music a lot less. When I play "For the Roses," > that voice, *that voice* just resonates in a free way, uninhibited. Now, I > think her voice is incredibly inhibited, often off-key, and unable to reach > the notes it used to, and often unable to reach the notes it tries to. > Much as I try, I can't seem to find the smoke-induced changes in her voice > to be > for the better. I don't know if you sing or play music, but I think the thing you are refering to as "off key" is an intentional coloration technique she is using. As jazz musicians mature, they tend to let the center of their pitch drift sometimes because they are playing with the "harmonics" of the pitch. Harmonics are the frequencies that give various instruments (including the human voice) their characteristic sound, ie why a trumpet doesn't sound like a saxophone even if they are playing the same basic pitch. When a singer is young , they tend to be more gymnastic in their attempts because they are learning and because it is natural to show off. Examples of this can be seen in the early days of flash guitarists where speed is everything and so every note of the fretboard gets played at as fast a speed as possible and ALL THE TIME. Similarly, Joni's earlier vocalizations, constantly flipping into the falsetto range and traveling the breadths of extremity scale-wise were her way of acquiring pitch knowledge and showing off her wares. She in essense was checking out every crayon color in the box. As the artist matured, she became more selective and spent her energies working on the subtle aspects, which includes those harmonic shifts. So with that viewpoint, I would not only like to know how many of us listers think her voice has improved over time or not, but also whether or not the opinion comes from a musician. You can blow out the candle now, Linda. cul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:19:25 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: Little Green >. Is it possible > that it was written shortly after the birth/adoption but was recorded much > later? She performed it as early as 1967, and she sang the last line "Kelly green, be a gypsy dancer." It's on one of the tape trees. Deb Messling "Without music, life would be an error." --Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:25:11 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Lilith Fair (SJC, more of mariana's life, ect..) >"The X-Files Movie" again, put on the happiest Joni I can find and sing, plug >in the Foo Fighters and headbang around the neighboorhood, buy myself some >flowers, lip-sycnh to kate bush, watch some tv, pet the dogs and hug them and >be grateful that I have such unconditional love, log onto the JMDL for >support, look at pictures of our gatherings, and just generally be glad >because after all...what good's a man, if he's not harrison ford? >mariana >NP: The Foo Fighters, -The Foo Fighters- >PS: headbanging music is so two dimensional, but it's so much fun. > A few degrees of separation- when I glanced thru this msg I didn't know it was from JMDL, I thought in was from one of the xphile lists, because the foo fighters are a current topic... reach out and clutch someone... - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:38:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Re: Respect and lack of it - ---Marian wrote: > > You know, I feel like this whole discussion on adoption and Joni's > reasons borders on total disrespect for her and I am very uncomfortable > with that. And that's why I expressed myself so angrily in my last post > to the list and to Al. > And do we know for sure that Kilauren *or* Joni's mother are *NOT* reading the list?? Think about it. Brian === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:44:21 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation >I doubt he does know! Have you ever lived on the Canadian prairies Al? I >have...To this day the economically rich are economically poor there in >comparison to other places...More so when Joni lived there... > >> I can't stand this discussion anymore! > >Me either Marion!!! > >-- >Susan L.A. I was pondering here on the ponderosa- does Joni read this stuff? It's getting 'like a camping couple- too intense'. As Jacqueline Onassis once said, 'this sh*ts so thick you can't stir it with a stick.' - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:14:41 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Linda's Joni's Voice &Joni's guitar Well put ... I think I copied my response to Howard Motyl to the list, where I make much the same point, but less technically -- since I wasn't sure how many others out there would understand or care about the physics of tonality. Another word on enharmonic resonance ... your post is another reason that Joni gravitated so quickly to alternate guitar tunings, because those resonances give a unique tonal quality. So what's good for the guitar is good for the vocal chords, yes? > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:09:05 -0700 (PDT) From: joe horne Subject: the human voice as a window to the soul I think Joni Mitchell has a great voice, with wonderful inflection and phrase direction and, at times, a real roughness that is startling and beautiful. One Xmas when I was a teen I was decorating the tree with my bros and sisters, listening to Stevie Nicks' rendition of "Silent Night". One of my older sisters said, "you know, some people were just not meant to sing." I tried to explain to her that not everyone has (or should have) a soprano voice with perfect diction, etc. etc. She couldn't understand that there is a unique and wonderful thing about an untrained voice, a voice that is free and uninhibited by the rules of "proper singing". Do you know what I mean? Have a great weekend everyone! It's PRIDE weekend in Atlanta! Wheee! My sister and her partner are coming into town (not the slander stevie sister) Happy PRIDE! _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:22:16 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: the human voice as a window to the soul And compared to Dylan she sounds like Leontyne Price : ) Jerry joe horne wrote: > I think Joni Mitchell has a great voice, with wonderful inflection and > phrase direction and, ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 19:42:09 +0100 From: Linda Brady Subject: Candle Flame Returned/Joni's Voice Hi Michael, Thanks for the candle flame:) you say: >So with that viewpoint, I would not only like to know how many of us >listers >think her voice has improved over time or not, but also whether or not >the >opinion comes from a musician. I am a musician: I've studied music theory, and I play four instruments and sing, so put that on the record. I am as qualified as you to comment on this. I respectfully disagree: Joni is off-key. She's not playing with harmonics, she simply no longer has the equipment to reach some of the notes she tries for. I understand your comments about vocal gymnastics, and I agree she did a lot of vocal somersaults on her early albums, but listen to Court and Spark: she's not trying anything fancy; she simply has the physical VOICE. It's a matter of equipment, not anything else. The problem first manifested itself on the 80s albums, specifically Dog Eat Dog and Chalk Mark, because it seems that she was trying to get used to this new, limited instrument. Then, around the time of Night Ride Home, she stopped trying to stretch herself (not in a gymanstic way; I mean stretch to get the note), maybe because she realized her limitations. That's why, IMHO, the vocals on NRH and TI are *much* better; she is keeping in her range and not trying to sing the way she used to. She's making the most of what she now has. Linda ---------- > > From: Bounced Message > > To: joni@smoe.org > > Subject: Re: Joni's Voice and FLA.ME for Linda > > Date: 26 June 1998 17:33 > > > > Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:02:16 -0700 > > From: Michael Heath > > > > Hi, Don't worry...its just a candle flame... > > > > Linda Brady wrote: > > > > > I have to express a most likely unpopular opinion about Joni's voice. > I > > > think it has drastically declined over the last ten or so years, to the > > > point where I enjoy her music a lot less. When I play "For the Roses," > > > that voice, *that voice* just resonates in a free way, uninhibited. > Now, I > > > think her voice is incredibly inhibited, often off-key, and unable to > reach > > > the notes it used to, and often unable to reach the notes it tries to. > > > Much as I try, I can't seem to find the smoke-induced changes in her > voice > > > to be > > > for the better. > > > > I don't know if you sing or play music, but I think the thing you are > refering > > to as "off key" > > is an intentional coloration technique she is using. As jazz musicians > mature, > > they tend to let the center of their pitch drift sometimes because they > are > > playing with the "harmonics" of the pitch. Harmonics are the frequencies > that > > give various instruments (including the human voice) their characteristic > > sound, ie why a trumpet doesn't sound like a saxophone even if they are > > playing > > the same basic pitch. > > When a singer is young , they tend to be more gymnastic in their > attempts > > because they are learning and because it is natural to show off. Examples > of > > this can be seen in the early days of flash guitarists where speed is > > everything and so every note of the fretboard gets played at as fast a > > speed as > > possible and ALL THE TIME. Similarly, Joni's earlier vocalizations, > > constantly > > flipping into the falsetto range and traveling the breadths of extremity > > > > scale-wise were her way of acquiring pitch knowledge and showing off her > > wares. > > > > She in essense was checking out every crayon color in the box. As the > artist > > matured, she became more selective and spent her energies working on the > > subtle > > aspects, which includes those harmonic shifts. > > > > You can blow out the candle now, Linda. > > > > cul > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:01:29 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: smallest musical instrument (NJC) God -- I have enough problems keeping my junky ovation in tune!!! I'll have to go and see this nanothing!!! :-) WOODSTOCK HERE I COME!!! :-) >James A. Murray wrote: >> >> The nanoguitar, constructed by Harold Craighead and Dustin Carr, is a >> working guitar as big as a red blood cell. Its strings are only 100 >> atoms wide! >> >> The ten-micron-long guitar is made out of a single crystal of silicon. >> Its six strings can be plucked by a tool called an atomic force >> microscope, but the 7-megahertz vibrations produced are far too fast >> and weak to be heard by human ears. > >How nice that Sue MacNamara is there at Cornell to tune it for them! >Now Sue, don't give away too many of Joni's open tunings! > >Mark in Seattle ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:02:42 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: The Dancin' Close and Slow thread Absolutely, positively, Man to Man!! >What's your favorite Joni MItchell song to slow dance to? Mine: "Two >Grey Rooms." > -Julie Z. Webb, Don Juan's Fertile Daughter ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:10:35 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Blue Motel Room & Strange Boy I'm so glad we can connect on this list. I say this kind of thing all the time to people I meet when they ask me about Joni, and they look at me like I'm nuts. This usually happens when the only album they've heard is Ladies of the Canyon. But we understand each other, Eric! This is the truth. I've been really enjoying this stretch of lyrics lately: Blue and silver sparkling drums Cheap guitars, eye shades and guns Aimed at the hot blood of being no one Down and out in Memphis Tennesee >I >have long considered myself very lucky to experience each of her releases >first hand. It's like living in the Renaissance, witnessing Leonardo and >Michelangelo do their thing. > > E.T. > >NP: DMB, Crash ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:17:18 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Candle Flame Returned/Joni's Voice >The problem first manifested itself on the 80s albums, specifically Dog Eat Dog and Chalk Mark Gotta call a flag down on this play ... both of these albums are some of the sonically most experimental, and technically complex arrangements (production-wise) Joni's ever attempted. I think it much more likely that she is stretching harmonically, as Michael suggests. Plus, if you can judge vocal intonation accuracy through the dense veil of Thomas Dolby's heavily flanged/phased/chorused keyboard work (all of which serves to blur pitch), well then you've got better perfect pitch than mine! I mean that honestly, I'm not trying to sound snide ... Joni's voice has always sounded fine, or as good as it could against that re-interpreted Spectre-esque wall of sound. Chalk Mark finds Joni performing in tandem with such a diverse range of other singers, from Willie Nelson to Billy Idol, more so than on any of her other work, I'm inclined to think there had to be some push-pull dynamic to get the vocal blending right. Just another thought -- I've played sessions in studios and seen that happen. But again, I don't see a problem with it ... So another facet in the diamond, as opposed to fire :-) D Rowe. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:20:09 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Lost Verse of MATW Wow, that's very cool that she played the first verse during the tour. I always assumed that she didn't play the first verse because the guitar part was not in the same tuning as the rest of the song. I wonder if she switches tunings after the first verse with the VG-8!! Oh, my God, if she starts using multiple tunings in songs cooked up on the VG-8 I'm going to be in the looney bin!! Bill, is it possible to switch tunings in the middle of songs with the VG-8 without it sounding choppy? Mark if you figure out a chord progression for the first verse, let me know! > "Mark Domyancich" wrote: > >> Is this verse from Moon at the Window sung on >> WTRF? I've only heard this song on the tape trees >> and what sounds like a studio recorded version >> with guitar. Was this song originally on the >> guitar? And why haven't I heard Joni sing this in >> the tape trees? >> _________________________________________ >> Mark Domyancich >> Harpua@revealed.net >> "Shadows have the saddest things to say." >> _________________________________________ ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:55:35 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: smallest musical instrument (NJC) >>> The nanoguitar, constructed by Harold Craighead and Dustin Carr, is a >>> working guitar as big as a red blood cell. Its strings are only 100 >>> atoms wide! >>> >>> The ten-micron-long guitar is made out of a single crystal of silicon. >>> Its six strings can be plucked by a tool called an atomic force >>> microscope, but the 7-megahertz vibrations produced are far too fast >>> and weak to be heard by human ears. Hook it up to a Marshall amp! When I lived with musicians, they would try to hook everything up to pedals and amps, like food processors, electric razors, whistle rings, etc. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:09:36 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: Joni's Voice At 01:21 PM 6/26/98 +0100, Linda Brady wrote: >I have to express a most likely unpopular opinion about Joni's voice. I >think it has drastically declined over the last ten or so years >When I play "For the Roses," >that voice, *that voice* just resonates in a free way, uninhibited. Hi Linda, Welcome to the jmdl! First Id like to address Brian Gross's comment: >And do we know for sure that Kilauren *or* Joni's mother are *NOT* reading the >list?? Hi Brian, I believe that only positive jmdl posts get to Joni----if they get to her at all. And if Kilauren and co. and Joni's mngt are reading these posts, they most likely have adopted a professional attitude towards posts that have become speculative of JM's personal life or critical of her talent. I consider the jmdl to be a marketing, focus group tool with our candid comments ranging from idol worship to tough love to projection-gone-wild. Anything less than that would probably not be as genuine and therefore not stimulating to me. Now, regarding my opinion of Joni's singing voice. I too love her voice for what it used to be from DJRD back. This affection I have for her music from long ago, ----- serves as a motivating factor to adjust to the voice of the new sounding Joni. It's as if I listen to her now for what she was...but in doing so, I discover that Im sometimes, not always, enchanted by her new work. The following is a cheap comparison, but it's all I can think of at this time: When my daughter saw "The Horse Whisperer" she was disturbed with the pairing up of Kristin Scott Thomas and Robert Redford. She thought he was an old man. But I didn't notice his wrinkles. He was still the Sundance Kid to me making another really good movie. Julie Z. Webb ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #223 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?