From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #222 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Friday, June 26 1998 Volume 03 : Number 222 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Nancy Griffith (was re:Emmylou And Iris) [Brian Gross ] Re: Little Green [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Litho framing question [DKasc13293@aol.com] Re: Litho framing question [Phyliss Ward ] NJC Vacation time again - See ya later [Phyliss Ward ] re: joni at woodstock [terstan ] Lilith Fair (SJC, more of mariana's life, ect..) [Marilune@aol.com] RE: Janet & BYOB ["Eric W Taylor" ] Re: you're kidding, right? ["Eric W Taylor" ] dream misses/dream tribute [Gellerray@aol.com] mother of lourdes [Gellerray@aol.com] re: Huh? [Robert Holliston ] RE: Joni mother-shame fixation [M.Russell@iaea.org] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:39:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Gross Subject: Nancy Griffith (was re:Emmylou And Iris) - ---Howard Motyl wrote: > **********and I highly recommend "Infamous Angel" ("Hotter than the > Mojave" is great fun). I fell in love with Iris when she opened for > Nancy Griffith (Other Voices, Other Rooms is a great album) three years > ago. Iris has a simplicity and honesty in her voice and lyrics that is > sometimes heartbreaking (listen to "My Town") > "Other Voices, Other Rooms" is an absolute gem. There's not *one* bad track on the entire album. Nancy covers everyone from Townes Van Zandt to John Prine to Tom Paxton to Ralph Mc Tell to Gordon Lightfoot to Bob Dylan to Woody Guthrie. A better album of covers is not to be found anywhere. Brian === "No paper thin walls No folks above No one else can hear the crazy cries of love" yeah, right _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:35:37 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation >Marian says: >> It *is* rather amazing that she managed to keep her pregnancy, the >> birth, the year and half of motherhood and the adoption totally secret >> from her parents. Al said: >It's more than amazing, it's unprecedented. It indicates an >obsession with maintaining an image to her mother which ultimately >overwhelms even the bonds to her own child. She sings that she >is sad and sorry but not ashamed, but I feel that must be qualified >somehow. >Well, then maybe she WAS ashamed. It seems inescapable. So, to what >extent did shame (and shame-covering) lead to the adoption? Unknown. >*Shunning.* That is exactly it. She is afraid of being shunned. Al, My parents were normal, loving people, who at times were not perfect. Retelling some of their parenting stories would be like entering the world of "Politically Incorrect Ways of Parenting in the 60's and 70's." You may hear my story in the following paragraph and gasp, but when we retell these stories at family get-togethers we see them now in a humourous light, believe it or not. We knew our parents loved us and did what they could, sometimes clumsily, to teach to live our young lives in a way so that we could eventually live "the good life." The following story will give you an idea of the times "back then": When I entered high school, my father gave my sister and I "The Talk." He he had an intense, uncomfortable, Don Rickles- look about him and then he spoke. He told us that if either my sister and I ever became pregnant prior to marriage, we should simply jump off of our hometown bridge. Of course, my sister and I snickered and rolled our eyes and yelled, "Mom, can you believe he said that?!?!?!" But when all was said and done, we got the message. There is no question in my mind, while in college, if I would have gotten pregnant, I personally would have had the child adopted or had an abortion, and my parents would never have known a thing about it. (I think part of my growing up was protecting them from knowing about certain trials and tribulations.) So I wouldn't keep the baby----partially because of not letting my folks down...but the real reason was that I had my taste of babies while babysitting and there was no way I was going to settle down and parent a child at a young age. period. JulieZW ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:38:16 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Little Green In a message dated 98-06-25 22:26:56 EDT, mwyarbro@zzapp.org writes: << Another, more plausible, reading is that she's not ashamed of the adoption itself; maybe she views this sad decision as a mature one that she approaches with a certain degree of pride in knowing she's doing what's best for the child. >> This is the interpretation I had had on the song and that line in particular for nigh on 27 years now. It was my belief then and now that the other projections people have been making recently about these lyrics are way off base. But that's merely my firmly held opinion and nothing more. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:50:49 EDT From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: Litho framing question I wasn't sure how this would be perceived, so I posted to Steve privately. I was a little tentative and guarded, because I ain't cheap (HA). But, if anyone is interested, here's my professional opinion: Since I am assuming that Joni had to approve to color of the t-shirts with the litho image, I would chose a color in that family as the (acid free) matte. Given that the intensity of the color in the litho is brighter and clearer, I would keep that in mind, making sure that the clarity of color matched the print. It doesn't have to be as muted as the T-shirt color. Think in clear colors, not watered down, muted ones (and I don't necessarily mean bright, either). Since the frame in the image is a muted giltwood frame (and I am assuming since it's Joni Mitchell that it is water guilding) not the cheap imitation guilding made in Switzerland that over time develops a really cheezy yellow patena. You should use a water guilded frame (it doesn't have to be big and thick) but, it's a good idea that the frame relate in some way to the frame in the picture. Unless, you are opposed to traditional framing, and your home has a more contemporary sensibility, then I would use a clean lined water gilt frame (don't use chrome, if you don't have too) If your budget says metal frame, then use a brass frame. Kakki, I'm dreaming of LA, you and the wildflowers.........waiting for the JMDL recap page. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:05:37 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Litho framing question Kakki wrote: > And I personally would not cut out the mat for the signature, either. I understand the aesthetic part of this but I think from a value/investment point of view - not that you would part with it in the forseeable future - It is best NOT to cover up the signature. Any Art collectors out there? Duane the decorator should know! Phyliss ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:13:28 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: NJC Vacation time again - See ya later Just letting you know I'll be sans computere for a while. Well, yes, I'm off on yet another vacation - actually two. With the exception of about three days I will be hiking in Breckenridge CO and then hitting the beach in sunny San Diego, CA. through July 12th. What a life huh? I'll be going through JMDL withdrawal for the next few days I'm sure. Then I'll spend the whole 3 days inbetween trips catching up on a ziillion posts! Don't say anything important while I'm gone ok? ;-) Later, Phyliss ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:40:20 -0400 From: "Eric W Taylor" Subject: Re: Janet & the BOBW Howard Motyl wrote: >Huh? Are you seriously gonna tell me that you think that Joni's >smoke-ravaged and aged voice has a great dynamic range? >I love Joni, mind you, but I would never in my life say she is a >great singer, in terms of voice. I can't think of when I've disagreed with anyone more! Joni's voice gets more dynamic and pleasing with each new album. She is categorically the finest guitarist, lyricist, and vocalist I have ever had the pleasure to hear! I think Donny Hathaway, Barbra Streisand, and Gino Vanelli come in second, third, and fourth (behind Joni) in the voice department. But, then, I like depth. E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:47:11 +0000 From: terstan Subject: re: joni at woodstock Thanks to everyone who jumped to my defense...and apologies accepted Howard. However i must say this...Joni Mitchell is so beautiful and her songs and messages are about the human spirit and all of its frailties and failings...I am a true joni fan and like many said..i probably and apparently don't know all there is to know..this discussion list is about learning and sharing...Please Howard don't be so quick to jump someone..its not necessary...I don't own all the albums but i love all that i do have....Joni touches me and so do many of you..i love reading what you say and your many experiences with and about Joni...I cried while reading the latest update on Wally....keep the spirit wally...there are so many praying for you. We are a very select and special group...Joni fans are hard to find and I'm glad i have found all of you. Again Howard..thanks for the apology..i know you must have been out of character...later everyone. Mike (terstan) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:52:36 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Lilith Fair (SJC, more of mariana's life, ect..) The time is here again! Time for Lilith. I'm really looking forward to it this time. I'm a big Sarah M. fan, as some of you may know. This will be the third time I'm seeing her. Hopefully, Sarah's performance will be as faboo as her November concert (which was certainly an experience to remember. all the concerts I've attended this year and last have been *great*. lilith 1, sarah, elliott, joni, and now lilith again.) I've also now got all her albums, so I will no longer be waiting for her to sing "Possession" or "Building a Mystery" or something I know. Anything she may play, I'm ready for. At the November concert, Sarah mixed in some old faves from that fabulous little album "Solace" which came out in 1991 (a year of GREAT music...Tori Amos came out with "Little Earthquakes", Nirvana came out with "Nevermind", and Joni came out with "Night Ride Home"). I'll write up my thoughts on Lilith, which I plan to thorughly enjoy from beginning to end (I'm looking forward to Shawn Colvin and Natalie Merchant alot). and now for someting completely different.... four foot ten four foot ten! that's the story of my life! I've been dancing in "A Chorus Line" for a week now and we were cast. I'm Connie, which is a great part to me. It's not really a "featured" role, but I've got some singing roles and I'll make the best of any part. I'm even getting better at the dancing. I practice it at home with the Foo Fighters on REALLY REALLY LOUD. Drive my parents up the wall. After me spoiling them with Joni and Sarah and even Elliott (even though mum thinks it's rathger depressing), they're unnerved that I'm now headbanging my way to summer touring company to the dulcet sounds of Dave Grohl and Co. personal achievment: I haven't called Griffin yet, which really is an achievement for me. I even managed to put him out of my mind for a while. But now I find I'm beginning to pine for him just a little. I read his message in the yearbook and look at the pictures I took at him. I sometimes find myself thinking of those painful weekends I spent (like the one at the Roxy if ya'll remember that) and his sort of obliviousness to the fact that I was so terribly vulnerable around him and whatever he said, I really felt, much deeper that he probably meant me to (I'm a Virgo, an earth sign, earth signs feel things very deeply). I'm probably going to call him next week to ask him to a Chorus Line. I'm going to see if I can get him to talk. If I can't, I'm going to get off the phone (this is a promise I'm making to my emotional sanity right now), call up a girlfriend and gab, get out of the house, see "The X-Files Movie" again, put on the happiest Joni I can find and sing, plug in the Foo Fighters and headbang around the neighboorhood, buy myself some flowers, lip-sycnh to kate bush, watch some tv, pet the dogs and hug them and be grateful that I have such unconditional love, log onto the JMDL for support, look at pictures of our gatherings, and just generally be glad because after all...what good's a man, if he's not harrison ford? mariana NP: The Foo Fighters, -The Foo Fighters- PS: headbanging music is so two dimensional, but it's so much fun. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:58:56 -0400 From: "Eric W Taylor" Subject: RE: Janet & BYOB Michael Yarbrough wrote: >All I know about this tribute thing is that k.d. lang is supposedly >doing "Help Me," and that's about the best matching of artist >and song I've ever heard of in my entire life. You are so right, Michael! I hope k.d. slows the tempo a tad because that song really gets on my nerves (it's the only Joni tune they ever play on the radio). I would just love to hear bjork do Paprika Plains and Barbra do Blue... E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 01:25:00 -0400 From: "Eric W Taylor" Subject: Re: you're kidding, right? Mike wrote: > > You snipe so steady, you snub so snide > > So ripe and ready, to diminish and deride > > Oh you're so quick to condescend, > > my opinionated friend > > All you deface, all you defend > > Is just a borderline... This has got to be one of Joni's greatest lines. And sung with such range, depth, and emotion... Howard wrote: >I APOLOGIZED TO THE GUY BEFORE ANY OF YOU >SENT ME LETTERS. ALRIGHT ALREADY. >I KNEW I WAS WRONG. MEA CULPA. MEA CULPA. >SEND ME TO THE MAGDELENA LAUNDRIES OR SOMETHING. >YIKES. No need to shout, Howard. It might age you... Sorry, I'm just picking on you because I know what it's like to be a blowhard who wishes WIN98 invented an Unsend button. Just remember, we are here to have fun, so let's all take advantage. I bet you had fun composing & sending that post. I sure had fun responding to it... E.T. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:00:30 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: dream misses/dream tribute ok. two things. one is, though it is plain and clear to all who know me that i adore the joan and am her champion even when she stubbornly/sublimely marches to the beat of her own drummer (well, that is what makes her so very very special of course, that and the fact that her drummer--her soulmate, Art--is a pioneering, iconoclastic genie), I was kinda disappointed (my shield is up, saints protect me) with the lineup on misses. I mean as she said on letterman or rosie, one, she had some 180 misses or something to choose from, so, you know, that's a challenge...but anyway, I remember I drew up a "dream misses" list and I was going to make tapes for friends for christmas but I had a little nervous breakdown to get through so that didn't happen--maybe someday. anyway someday i will find that list and perhaps post it for fun--i know it's around somewhere. anyway. #2 when my friend matt and i heard about the tribute albuum I was rattling off the list of artists who had signed on--i can't remember them now but some, of course, are sublime and some are, well, not as riveting--at least in my HO. But we became a tad obsessed (for the twenty minutes we discussed it, six months ago now) with finding the right song for Madonna to sing (my shield is up, saints protect me), even though, as far as i know, Madonna is not slated. Anyway, we--he and I--thought of some good ones, but I wanna know, what do others think? Personally I am pretty convinced it should be something pre- Hissing, and, for some reason I think that she'd do well to mine Ladies of the Canyon! (I mean the whole album). Does anybody care enough to venture? Or is this some dumb exercise, going nowhere? (If so I don't really care--I just thought of it as a study break)....Tonite, myself I'm thinkin Rainy Night House, or Blue Boy, even Circle Game. Madonna and Circle Game--isn't there a certain beauty there, somehow? How can we make this happen!!! And by the way I am sooo open to other fantasy artist ideas as I can both love the mother of Lourdes and then some days and weeks and months be quite numb to her--I'm not ashamed, mind you, just not always connected! Anyway, toodleloo, and weigh in if you are at all engaged, regards---ray-ray ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:11:28 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: mother of lourdes oops! regarding my dream misses/dream tribute, that line down near the bottom--3rd last maybe--should read of course "...can be quite numb to her--" I left out my can. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:55:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: Huh? Howard Motyl wrote: > Huh? Are you seriously gonna tell me that you think that Joni's >smoke-ravaged > and aged voice has a great dynamic range? I love Joni, mind you, but I would > never in my life say she is a great singer, in terms of voice. OK, so you didn't direct this question at me, but: Yes! I am seriously gonna tell you that I think Joni's smoke-ravaged and aged voice has a great dynamic range. It has lost a bit of agility, and she doesn't use high head tones the way she used to. Well, something's lost but something's gained. During her last several albums she's grown in different ways as a singer, and in her performance last month, she seemed to be singing with greater emotional intensity than ever, and in terms of sheer power - well, I don't think anyone who heard her riveting performance of Slouching Towards Bethlehem, to name just one, will ever forget it. Some of my most enduring favourite recordings feature another smoke-ravaged and aged voice - Billie Holiday's 1950s one. I think Joni is a great singer - not only in terms of voice, but because of the musical way she uses her voice to convey thoughts, emotions, and words. She is also, to my ears, becoming more and more rhythmically flexible as a singer. Anyway, those are a few thoughts. Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:56:46 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Joni mother-shame fixation Reply to Al Date's reply to my analysis of motivations and why Joni's choice has nothing to do with her mother: You know, Al, I feel like you're not hearing everything I have said - like you're taking stuff I have said out of the whole context and trying to use it to prove your baseless theory. My points are as follows: 1. You have never been a mother, so you can't understand fully how a mother could come to the decision of giving up her child. 2. I find the premise of Joni's "fear of her mother" (which, in itself, is open to question) as a primary factor in her decision rather weak. 3. That she didn't tell her parents about the baby is another issue which may have been motivated by a desire to protect them from community disapproval. 4. The bottom line is that giving her child up for adoption was the best decision for Joni and for her child, for emotional, economic and artistic reasons which are included in my previous post. >Marian says: >And, the fact that she "pleads the Fifth" on this subject Maybe she "pleads the Fifth" as you put it, because it really isn't anyone's business but her own, Al. >be embarassing. What could be more embarassing in the >Age of Aquarius than giving up one's love-child to keep >one's mum from being shamed? This is a really hollow interpretation, Al. > >*Shunning.* That is exactly it. She is afraid of being shunned. Out of context!!! I was referring to how she could at 50+ years of age still be hurt by her mother's disapproval - because rejection is painful - - and trying to say that that isn't necessarily a proof of a need for psychological growth and/or detachment from loved ones. > >I don't see much evidence of economic hardship. How the hell do *you* know? >I do see a lot of shame-prevention antics, cover-up How dare you say that??? >and no willingness to set the record straight. She is not obliged to do this for anyone! Least of all you or me! I can't stand this discussion anymore! Marian > > ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #222 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?