From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #221 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, June 25 1998 Volume 03 : Number 221 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: Dear Al: More Angst for Analysis [catman ] Re: Emmylou And Iris [Howard Motyl ] Washington D.C. visit (NJC) [ken ziolkowski ] "A Day In The Garden" Sponsors [LRFye@aol.com] Career moves [Steve Dulson ] Mingus Songbook ["Mark Domyancich" ] Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist [LRFye@aol.com] Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist ["Don Rowe" ] Re: Joni's Shame -- Fact or Fiction? [Marian Russell ] Re: Litho framing question [sherrie.good@chronicle.com] Re: Litho framing question [Heather ] Re: Litho framing question [sherrie.good@chronicle.com] More clues [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist [Leenycas@aol.com] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] you're kidding, right? [Howard Motyl ] Re: Janet & the BOBW [Howard Motyl ] Re: you're kidding, right? ["Mark Domyancich" ] jonis 1st album [Michael Heath ] Re: joni at woodstock [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: joni at woodstock [DKasc13293@aol.com] Re: Janet & the BOBW [Jason Maloney ] Re: jonis 1st album ["Mark Domyancich" ] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [Mark or Travis ] Joni at Woodstock [Howard Motyl ] Re: jonis 1st album [catman ] (SJC-long)My chat with Brian Blade [Heather ] Little Green [Michael Yarbrough ] RE: Janet & the BOBW [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: you're kidding, right? ["M & C Urbanski" ] Re: Litho framing question ["Kakki" ] Re: you're kidding, right? [Howard Motyl ] Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist [IVPAUL42@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:29:44 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Dear Al: More Angst for Analysis Seems to me ms cole(whoever she is) knows what is what. colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:49:04 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Emmylou And Iris From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Emmylou Anne Madden wrote: > I have recently discovered Iris Dement - she > is very very good - is anyone familiar with her music? I first stumbled > across her when I bought the soundtrack to the movie Horse Whisperer. On it > she sings Whispering Pines. I liked her voice so much I bought her most > recent CD called The Way I Should - it is great. > > Anne Hi Anne! I love Iris Dement! She has a wonderful voice and sings with that honesty and tone of voice 'that cannot be faked' as Joni puts it. The more I listen to her, the more impressed I am with her songwriting skills, too. She writes straight from the heart and has a great sense of melody. I highly recommend her other 2 CD's 'Infamous Angel' and 'My Life'. I really hope she develops a following. I saw her open for Emmylou last summer here in Seattle. The whole concert was great! Mark in Seattle **********and I highly recommend "Infamous Angel" ("Hotter than the Mojave" is great fun). I fell in love with Iris when she opened for Nancy Griffith (Other Voices, Other Rooms is a great album) three years ago. Iris has a simplicity and honesty in her voice and lyrics that is sometimes heartbreaking (listen to "My Town") - -- Howard Motyl Producer, MPI Teleproductions ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:59:30 -0400 From: ken ziolkowski Subject: Washington D.C. visit (NJC) Next month I'll be spending three days in D.C. at a conference and wonder if anyone can recommend anything in the way of restaurants, live music, record stores, book stores, etc., that I can check out in the evenings. I'll be staying in Georgetown (30th Street NW) and won't have access to a car. Thanks in advance. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:03:44 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: "A Day In The Garden" Sponsors Has anyone heard who is sponsoring ADITG? Seagrams? Coke? Who? Thanks, Lori in San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:23:07 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Career moves Kenny wrote: >Something tells me she's gonna be forced make a few more compromises this >time, >or risk a very poor reception -- something she (or anyone) never likes, but >also something she can't afford career-wise Considering the songs she has done at high-profile, televized shows in the past (Amnesty Intl., Farm Aid, etc.), megahit crowd-pleasers like "Lakota" and "Three Great Stimulants", I, for one, wouldn't hold my breath. She just scolds the crowd when they start throwing things. :) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:38:53 -0500 From: "Mark Domyancich" Subject: Mingus Songbook Hey out there! Does anyone have the Mingus songbook? If you do, could you please contact me privately? Thank you muchly, _________________________________________ Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net "Shadows have the saddest things to say." _________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:12:10 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist Kenny wrote: > Something tells me she's gonna be forced make a few more compromises this time, or risk a very poor reception -- something she (or anyone) never likes, but also something she can't afford career-wise, as this event is much higher profile, and will likely be filmed and eventually seen by possibly hundreds of millions (HBO?, pay-per-view?, home video). I think Joni will play whatever pleases her, as well as some songs from TTT in order to promote the album. "Woodstock" will probably be an encore song. Joni has had a 30 year career already, doing relatively well without many "hits" as they are defined by Top 40 radio. While I think she has an interest in having her music (and her message) appreciated by more people, I don't believe Joni has ever or will ever compromise herself. After all this time, I cannot imagine Joni playing a set of oldies that "everyone" knows. As far as HBO/PPV viewers go, I hesitate to make this assumption but I'm going to write it anyway: when Joni sings "Woodstock," most people will think she's covering CSN&Y. Because most people sitting at home are musically ignorant and will remain so, unless it's announced that Joni wrote the song. Even then, more than half the viewers won't hear it. However, most people do understand the signficance of a performer being featured last. The biggest favor that Joni's management could do her and themselves would be to insure that Joni is the last act on Saturday night. Which is as it should be, don't you think? Lori in San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:22:09 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist Current plans have joni solidly in the middle of the fest, but I don't know enough to speculate about whether or not this is a good/bad move tactically ... though she *is* headlining her day, which has always been a good thing. Set wise -- the beauty is, with Joni, you never know. She could announce her set list six weeks in advance, get up on stage, hit the first three or four chords of a song -- stop and change her mind! That's the beauty of her concerts ... at least I've always thought so. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:41:23 +0200 From: Marian Russell Subject: Re: Joni's Shame -- Fact or Fiction? On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:07:56 PDT "Don Rowe" wrote: << The thread unwinding from Al's original analysis << makes what I think is a fundamental error. All << have automatically assumed that Joni lyrics, to << the extent of entire songs, are treatments from << her life ... taken from the whole cloth of her << experience and then thinly disguised in lyrical << poetry. Many valiant posts have made << references to interviews with Joni << on the "subject" of many of the << songs in question in support of this idea. While I agree that not all of her songs are about her own experiences, I don't think you can say that *none* of them pertain to actual experiences that she, herself, has had. Case in point, Night Ride Home which she described in the KCRW interview as a really bizarre experience which involved a real live horse that kept pace with their car as she and Larry were returning on the 4th of July to their rented house in Hawaii where the roof had caught fire while they were gone because neighbors had been careless with fireworks, etc., etc. She described all this in the interview. (To be honest, I liked this song a whole lot better when I could use my own imagination to come up with what it might have been about. It seemed a lot more romantic and beautiful before I heard this interview!) Facelift is obviously about her boyfriend Donald and her mother's disapproval, at least in the beginning, of their relationship. A Case of You, All I Want, Carey, Blue Motel Room, Man to Man (AYKTMBM!), *must* have been inspired by real people, whereas songs like Blue Boy, Two Grey Rooms, Sunny Sunday, seem obviously fictional and even lacking in depth, and she has told us that Magdalene Laundries is definitely fictional (but not as two-dimensional, IMO). And there are probably many others which are somewhere in between and can be described as you so nicely did: << The fact is, Joni's own experience is merely the raw << genetic material of her work. It is the genesis of a << lyrical fiction that transcends the experience itself. << Into the fabric of this fiction are woven broken << snippets of overheard conversations, tears shed << while reading great literature, tastes of ice cream, << the tingle of the fingers as the brush meets the canvas ... << and while the end result can sound like shame, << guilt or fear ... the fact remains that the song << itself is a *fiction*, with perhaps only a co-incidental << resemblance to the characters and events of a real life. << The fact that Joni politely points to the starting points << of her songs for well-meaning interviewers asking << "What's this song about?" is just her way of avoiding << having to say, "the song is what the song's about." << Because that's not what we want to hear. I really love most of what you say here, and only disagree with you in that I don't think it is a complete enough description to be applied to her entire catalog of songs, as I already stated above. << I look at it like this ... If we are to judge Magdalene << Laundries as a confession of the shame and guilt of << Joni's life, I think this theory is full of holes anyway! :^D << we'd better be prepared to look at "Amelia" << as a conversation that actually took place between << Joni and the long-dead aviator. And that, I think, is no << further a leap of logic than to declare Joni "demonized." Well said! Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:36:01 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: Litho framing question Knowing the *infinite* good taste of *most* jmdlers, I have a question about framing the TTT litho/print/ signed poster/whatever it is. Kakki suggested matting over most of the white, and doing a cutout for the signature. Any other thoughts? What color matte has worked for you? I'm probably going for a modern metal frame, in some dark color. Weren't the frames at the taping great? Kind-of old-fashioned, but they worked for Joni's stuff. Wonder who does *her* framing? Ah, *that*'s what I can ask her, should I be fortunate enough to meet her again! (Rather than standing there, agape, like an idiot!) Hopefully, there will be lithos available at Woodstock, for you east-coasters. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:00:40 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: Re: Litho framing question Steve, i am glad you mentioned this. i could see kakki's point about framing out the white part of the print, but i think the idea of cutting a hole in the matt for the signature would look really strange (no offense kakki, you know i'm brazy 'bout you). i worked in a gallery a long time ago, so i know a bit about matting. someone posted about using acid free matting board. this is very important. most good frame shops will use this, but ask. those of us with signed prints will have to live with that white space between Joni's painted frame and the actual frame we select. this is why i am going to get the most understated, thin frame i can find. enough to keep the print sealed and protected, but that almost disappears to the eye. never let the print touch against the glass, that is why you need a matt. and needless to say, hang it where the sun won't hit directly upon it. as far as matt colors go. hmmmm, i don't have the print here in front of me. sometimes it looks nice if you match a very subtle hue that was used sparingly in the painting. that can help pop out detail. maybe the color of her eyes? there are also cool matt boards available that have a different color 'inside' the matt than the top of the matt. when the matt is cut on a beveled edge (as it ought to be) this can look very nice. good luck steve. i'll be taking my print in to be framed soon as well sherrie who still can't believe she owns a signed Joni!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:16:56 -0400 From: Heather Subject: Re: Litho framing question At 06:00 PM 6/25/98 -0500, you wrote: someone posted about using acid free >matting board. this is very important. most good frame shops will use this, >but ask. those of us with signed prints will have to live with that white >space between Joni's painted frame and the actual frame we select. this is >why i am going to get the most understated, thin frame i can find. enough >to keep the print sealed and protected, but that almost disappears to the >eye. > sherrie and all- Just a note on acid free matting board ... Sherrie is right, you have to ask for it. The way paper is made, they use sulfuric acid to break the wood down into pulp (sometimes called a cleaning process). They can do this without using sulfuric acid but it is a more expensive process. That's why you are going to pay more but, a Joni lithograph is worth it! As far as the signature part, is it possible to have a little square cut out of the matting to show Joni's signature? Not having seen the lithograph, I'm not quite sure of my suggestion. How about a two tone double mat? Heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:38:21 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: Re: Litho framing question about Heather's suggestion for a double mat: "good call tiny e." this is a good idea, and one i forgot to mention. more expensive, but looks really nice. ask your frame shop person, they will know what this means. sherrie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:57:30 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: More clues Julie asks: "Are you really Jackson Browne in disguise?" To which I can only say: "In the evening, when you see my eyes, Looking back at you, no disguise I'm not sure who you think you'll see I'm just hoping you'll still know that it's me" :) - --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:58:46 EDT From: Leenycas@aol.com Subject: Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist My local weekily freebie "Metroland" has Joni second billed to Pete Townshend and also has the wed address for the event: www.dayinthegarden.com. Checked it out--Joni is scheduled to play at 3pm on Saturday. I'm only an hour and a half away (approximately). I really would like to go to this thing, but ticket prices are a real factor. I'll just have to wait and see. Also, Marilyn Manson is not listed on this bill, but they are looking into adding a 3rd day. An article in the paper yesterday stated that the promoters are looking for a certain kind of crowd. Older, with $$. Well, at least I fit half that category. Each day is slated to run 11:30 to 7:30 with after festival activities to be announced. With only 4 acts slated so far for each day, it seems like each artist should get plenty of stage time; their web site says there will be short intermission between each act. Colleen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:01:14 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation Marian says: > It *is* rather amazing that she managed to keep her pregnancy, the > birth, the year and half of motherhood and the adoption totally secret > from her parents. It's more than amazing, it's unprecedented. It indicates an obsession with maintaining an image to her mother which ultimately overwhelms even the bonds to her own child. She sings that she is sad and sorry but not ashamed, but I feel that must be qualified somehow. Perhaps Joni is honestly not personally ashamed of what she has done-- but she then plays the whole scenario to keep her mother from feeling ashamed or being shamed. Now if, as you said in your addendum, part of Joni's motivation is to protect her parents from being rejected by small-town moralism--well, that is even farther removed from her direct interest in the welfare of the child. It is making a Sophie's Choice between the child and the grandparents. And, the fact that she "pleads the Fifth" on this subject indicates to me that she is hiding something which would be embarassing. What could be more embarassing in the Age of Aquarius than giving up one's love-child to keep one's mum from being shamed? > However, it is important not to divorce what occurred > from the timeframe in which it occurred. This was *1964-65* - i.e., > pre-women's-liberation, and out-of-wedlock pregnancies were still > considered unfortunate and shameful - probably even more so in Canada. > "Nice girls" didn't get pregnant - which is a message Joni surely got > not only from her mother, but also from the society of that time, as she > has said in interviews. Well, then maybe she WAS ashamed. It seems inescapable. So, to what extent did shame (and shame-covering) lead to the adoption? Unknown. > I don't think she felt particularly *ashamed* about it all, though. In > Little Green, she also writes: "So you sign all the papers in the > family name, you're sad and you're sorry [to have to give the baby > away], but you're not ashamed [that you had her in the first place]". I'd like to believe her, but I think she may be covering up her inner feelings here. Or, at least, she is not being totally candid with us. That is certainly understandable given the circumstances. > You can do something in your life which goes against society's mores and > not feel guilty about it, but other people will make you *PAY* for it > through their contempt, and that is a painful thing to experience even > when it's coming from individuals that you have no particular regard > for, and particularly when it's coming from people that you do love and > care about (in Facelift "I shouldn't have come, she made me pay") even > if you're 50+ years old! Think of the shunning practice of the Amish > community - would you like to be treated that way by people you loved, > even if you were totally psychologically healthy (is there such a > thing?)? *Shunning.* That is exactly it. She is afraid of being shunned. The reason I find this so exceptional is that artists have a much greater opportunity to transcend society's mores than do the rest of us. Joni said herself that artists do better when they are suffering. Working through that suffering gives honest motivation to the artist, and hopefully some degree of emotional growth. > And anyway, Joni doesn't modify her behavior to please her mother, does > she? Otherwise, she either would have been too inhibited to have taken > up with Donald in the first place - or she would have dropped him like a > hot rock upon her mother's disapproval. Joni *does* modify her behavior to please her mother, but she does not give up sex out-of-wedlock and other facets of her earthy self. > If we think about this situation she was in back in 1965, I think we > also have to consider Joni's own creative fire bursting at the seams. > She clearly felt driven to express her visions and her songs in the > bright lights and she couldn't be where she is now - could not have > created and expressed and explored as much as she has - if she had had > the entire burden of raising a child. Even if she had had a husband, > she really would have needed a full-time nanny, too. I mean, do you > think she could have found a man willing to stay home and do the > childcare in 1965? And even if she had, would they have been able to > live on her income initially? Would she ever have written Tin Angel, > All I Want, A Case of You, Carey, Car on the Hill, Court and Spark, Man > to Man .... (and you know there may be more!). Now who is doing the speculating? :) > And then there is the hard reality of a crying baby and dirty diapers > and little or no sleep. This is difficult enough even when you choose > to go down this path and you have someone who travels with you and helps > you out. It is a nightmare when you are young and all alone - I know > because I have been there! And you know all alone that you are not > enough. You really need a full time job and it's very exhausting to > work all day and do child care all alone in the evening. It's also very > painful to farm your child out every day to inadequate childcare > facilities and caretakers who probably don't really care all that much. > Isn't it better that she's at least with someone who really wants her > and will really love her and be able to give her everything that you > never can - a normal family life and stability, maybe even brothers and > sisters? Broad truth, to be sure. To what extent does it apply to Joni's Choice? I don't see much evidence of economic hardship. I do see a lot of shame-prevention antics, cover-up and no willingness to set the record straight. [snippage] > I don't she has been demonized at all. I would say, on the whole, Joni > has been true to herself and pretty balanced in her approach to life. I > feel that Joni's mother has been a mostly positive influence and very > supportive. I'm sure you're right. Perhaps the fear of being shunned is simply in Joni's head. Or mine. :) > << That is why she could so easily, and with such force,>> > << fall into the role of one of the retched women at the >> > << Magdalene Laundries, a place which she had only >> > << encountered in a newspaper article, for chrissakes! >> > > I think this story was just simply astonishing to Joni - that someone > could be banished to the Laundries just for being single and beautiful! > Maybe she related to the character in the story from that standpoint - > you know, like if she had lived there during that time, she probably > would have been banished, just for being rebellious and beautiful! And > what an injustice that would have been!!! It is simply Joni telling us > an incredible story and shining her moral torchlight on the "bloodless > brides of Jesus" - the nuns who, "if they had just once glimpsed their > groom" would know immediately how horribly misguided and wrong the > banishment of these poor women was. And maybe she is, subliminally or subconsciously, speaking about her own personal Mother Superior who she earlier described as "always cleaning," and trying "to show her the deeper meaning." Sounds to me like one of those bloodless brides of Jesus. - --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:08:55 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: you're kidding, right? After reading below, all I could think was--and you call yourself a Joni fan. Joni was NOT at Woodstock. She was in New York City. She has the told the story countless times. Subject: joni at woodstock Bill wrote that Joni wrote Woodstock by hearing about it....actually i believe she was there even though she didn't perform...i seem to remember seeing video of behind the scenes Woodstock and Joni was there....Is my memory correct...anyone know for sure? Mike (terstan) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:26:58 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Janet & the BOBW > My main objection to this would be that I have serious doubts about > Janet's voice being able to cover the dynamic range of the song. I'd > much rather hear Sean Colvin or Mary Chapin-Carpenter take a crack at it > from that standpoint. >I agree with you Don. I wasn't suggesting that nobody should dare >attempt a version of the song per se......in fact an artist such as >Colvin or Carpenter could indeed still do justice to it. Huh? Are you seriously gonna tell me that you think that Joni's smoke-ravaged and aged voice has a great dynamic range? I love Joni, mind you, but I would never in my life say she is a great singer, in terms of voice. (Erykah Badu, Emmylou Harris, Dinah Washington--those are great voices.) And what exactly is wrong with Janet Jackson's voice? You are admitting that you haven't heard her new stuff or heard her for years, yet you are dissing her because she is doing a tribute to an artist she admires and respects. What is up with that? I've always wondered what other singers would do with those amazing Joni songs. I love the way she does them, but what would someone else do with them? A tribute album would give us all the chance to hear them. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:35:15 -0500 From: "Mark Domyancich" Subject: Re: you're kidding, right? Excuse the hell out of him, Howard! Do you consider yourself a Joni afficianado? I really doubt that. Give him a break! Now, terstan. Could you be thinking of the Isle of Wright? Big Sur? Edmonton Folk Festival? I tend to stick to the story about how she stayed in a hotel room watching it on TV. Well, I still believe Joni's first album is called Joni Mitchell (Let's NOT get into that discussion), so I may be wrong. To each their own! Subject: jonis 1st album Joni's fist is called "Song to a Seagull" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:49:15 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: joni at woodstock In a message dated 98-06-25 09:36:44 EDT, terstan@prysm.net writes: << Bill wrote that Joni wrote Woodstock by hearing about it....actually i believe she was there even though she didn't perform...i seem to remember seeing video of behind the scenes Woodstock and Joni was there....Is my memory correct...anyone know for sure? >> Your memory fails you, though your imagination is quite good. Joni did not go to Woodstock; she watched it in TV from the New York City hotel room where the Dick Cavett show put her up so that they would have at least one lucid folk/rock musician appear on the show the following Monday morning along with post-tripping Crosby, Stills & Nash and Jefferson Airplane members. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:59:00 EDT From: DKasc13293@aol.com Subject: Re: joni at woodstock Joni was staying at David Geffen's place while Woodstock was happening. David was the one who told her that she shouldn't go, and that she would never be able to get out and make it back for the Dick Cavett show. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:03:29 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Janet & the BOBW Howard Motyl wrote: > > > My main objection to this would be that I have serious doubts about > > Janet's voice being able to cover the dynamic range of the song. I'd > > much rather hear Sean Colvin or Mary Chapin-Carpenter take a crack at it > > from that standpoint. > > >I agree with you Don. I wasn't suggesting that nobody should dare > >attempt a version of the song per se......in fact an artist such as > >Colvin or Carpenter could indeed still do justice to it. > > Huh? Are you seriously gonna tell me that you think that Joni's > smoke-ravaged and aged voice has a great dynamic range? I love Joni, > mind you, but I would never in my life say she is a great singer, in > terms of voice. (Erykah Badu, Emmylou Harris, Dinah Washington--those > are great voices.) And what exactly is wrong with Janet Jackson's > voice? You are admitting that you haven't heard her new stuff or heard > her for years, yet you are dissing her because she is doing a tribute to > an artist she admires and respects. What is up with that? Firstly Howard, you have quoted two people's comments there, but are directing your reply to one. The suggestion that I don't know Janet's recent work/am dissing her is directed at me, and I'd like to point out that not only do I love Control & Rhythm Nation, but I have janet., Design Of A Decade AND The Velvet Rope. I also had a major crush on her for years, but less about that! I have no problem with janet covering joni, but how about a more suitable choioce....My Secret Place, perhaps? I wouldn't mind hearing THAT. Jason > I've always wondered what other singers would do with those amazing Joni > songs. I love the way she does them, but what would someone else do > with them? A tribute album would give us all the chance to hear them. > > Howard ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:04:54 -0500 From: "Mark Domyancich" Subject: Re: jonis 1st album Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation Al Date wrote: It is making a Sophie's Choice To what extent does it apply to Joni's Choice? Am I missing something here? Did Joni consign her baby to a Nazi gas chamber? I thought she gave her up for adoption by loving parents that had the means to care for her. Do I have it all wrong???.... Meryl Streep does sort of look like Joni...a little...well they both have blonde hair... Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:14:53 EDT From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: NJC-ALLMANS I must speak up that the Allman Bros. are one of my first bands to see live. I continue to appreciate them although I am not real found of later versions of the band. I was fortunate enough to see Duane and Berry several times. I also saw Gregg last year and he was in very good shape, physically and vocally. He was gracious enough to sign items for many fans afterward. Growing up in the south, these were the concerts to attend! Send those coasters to my house. Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 01:18:35 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: you're kidding, right? You snipe so steady, you snub so snide So ripe and ready, to diminish and deride Oh you're so quick to condescend, my opinionated friend All you deface, all you defend Is just a borderline, just a borderline. Joni Mitchell Borderline Hey Howard, You know, not everyone in our little cyber community has spent the requisite number of days/weeks reading every interview at jmdl.com and jonimitchell.com. And with new people visiting daily, many don't own a tape tree, and others can't even tell you what one is. And brace yourself, it doesn't stop there...there are even people who come here - -- active posters, occasional posters, and lurkers alike -- that don't own *every* albumn she's recorded. And guess what? They have the same right to call themselves Joni Mitchell fans as you and I do if they like her music. This is a discussion list, not an honors class. And if I ever misquote a Joni fact here, the last thing I'd want someone to do is jump down my throat. So lighten up :-) -Kenny Howard Motyl wrote: > After reading below, all I could think was--and you call yourself a Joni > fan. Joni was NOT at Woodstock. She was in New York City. She has the > told the story countless times. > > Subject: joni at woodstock > > Bill wrote that Joni wrote Woodstock by hearing about it....actually i > believe she > was there even though she didn't perform...i seem to remember seeing > video of > behind the scenes Woodstock and Joni was there....Is my memory > correct...anyone know for sure? > > Mike (terstan) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:37:09 -0700 From: Ginny McCord Subject: Re: you're kidding, right? Kenny Grant wrote: > You snipe so steady, you snub so snide > So ripe and ready, to diminish and deride > Oh you're so quick to condescend, my opinionated friend > All you deface, all you defend > Is just a borderline, just a borderline. > > Joni Mitchell > Borderline > Kenny, Well said. I have lurked for only a few months, myself, but the recent weeks seem to cling to the borderline. For the most part, all seem to be interesting and caring people. Perhaps we are all more than a little worried about Wally… Ginny ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:33:36 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Joni at Woodstock Hey, man, I smoked you pretty good on an earlier email and I apologize for that. Joni had to do the Dick Cavett show while Woodstock was happening. She wasn't there. She'll be the first to tell you. - -- Howard Motyl ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:45:02 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: jonis 1st album Michael Heath wrote: > Joni's fist is called "Song to a Seagull" What a coincidence-so was her first album! colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:05:34 -0400 From: Heather Subject: (SJC-long)My chat with Brian Blade My apologies for not getting this off to you all sooner but I've having my "day in the garden", literally. Well, as Ashara stated earlier, we had a really great time! The Brian Blade Fellowship (BBF) is a pretty solid band. They did some tunes off the CD plus some that they are working on for a 2nd CD (busy guy!). After the show we kind of moseyed out to front of the Rbar. Chuck had mentioned earlier that the bands are given a little room down the hall to relax in. Of course I had to go see for myself and sho' enough the entire band was in there! There were a few people talking to Brian so the wait wasn't long. My apologies to Ashara, Maggie, Alex, Chuck and Barbara but I had to seize the moment! I guess at this point I should mention that I had my stylish JMDL shirt on with the lovely internet logo. I introduced myself to Brian and promptly told him I was part of the JMDL and showed him the logo on the shirt. He was really surprised! He gave me a warm handshake and invited me to sit for a moment. Wow, I was sitting there talking to Brian and the rest of the band was sitting around talking about upcoming gigs and tunes and stuff. This was way too cool for me! I immediately gave Brian an update on Wally. He said "you mean the Breese?". He was really solemn for a moment. ( an aside -At the show they had these post card size promo's of the CD on every table) I asked Brian if he would like to write something to Wally and I would see that he'd receive it. "Sure, absolutely" he said and asked me for a pen. He wrote on the card and told me that Wally would know what he meant. I then proceeded to talk with him about his performances with Joshua Redman and how I admired his playing (I've seen Brian perform with Joshua 3 times). Brian said Elvin Jones and Art Blakey inspired him. We talked some about the Joshua Redman CD due out in October. I asked him what was next on his agenda. He said they (BBF) were going to Europe soon. Then I asked the BIG question "Are you going to play any more gigs with Joni?". He replied "yes" (!!!) He said he was doing the Woodstock gig. (now I could kick myself here (ouch!) for not asking if it would be the same band that played out west. I'm assuming it might be). He wouldn't say if he'd be doing anymore with Joni than that. Actually, he acted a little baffled as though he didn't know what was going to go on with Joni. He said he might be doing some gigs with Joshua Redman in late October / November. (Hmmm (?) what could he be doing in September?) "Well, Brian" I said, "I've seen you with the Fellowship, I've seen you with JR, now all I have to do is see you with Joni!" He laughed. Brian Blade is soooo easy to talk to. A very warm, sincere man with a gentle voice. He really makes you feel comfortable. I asked him how it was to jam with Joni. He was really at a loss for words to describe it. He said, "It's like …." And he made this centering motion with his hands. "I'm just at her command … she leads the way …" He mentioned what a beautiful person she is. I mentioned that I had been listening to Joni's music since I was 16 and he exclaimed "Me too!" He then mentions that Hejira was a favorite of his. I had totally forgot my manners! This was his break between sets! I apologized for taking up his time. He took my hand in his and said, "Oh don't even think about it!". I mentioned that I liked seeing him out on his own, doing "his" thing and that I noticed his drumming was a little more forceful (to me anyhow). He thanked me and asked me (us) to stay around for the 2nd set. I said I'd have to ask my JMDL pals. I thanked him for the talk and we each said goodbye. I pranced down the hall where I saw my JMDL pals looking really perplexed. (Sorry!!) I was like a giddy fool! I filled them in on the conversation. I told the others that maybe we could still get a picture with Brian. Ashara came prepared with her handy dandy camera. We saw Brain carrying 4 bottles sparkling water back to the room. He graciously agreed to a group picture. He said "Wait a minute, I'm packin' here .. let me put these down" What a genuinely nice guy! We didn't stay for the second set. We went to the lounge downstairs and had something to drink. We talked about college, kids (Ashara showed off her handsome quartet and rightfully so!), kitties and jobs. What a thrilling night! My thanks to Maggie for arranging this event and Ashara for giving me a slight tour of the Boston area ;-) (thank heavens for cell phones!) Maggie, your husband, Alex, has the patience of a saint! And to Chuck and Barbara for wonderful conversation! I hope you all didn't find this too too long. I'm not very good at reporting or writing for that matter. As Ever Heather ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:19:37 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: Little Green In the midst of this adoption thread the lyrics have come up from "Little Green": "You're sad and you're sorry but you're not ashamed" I think these lyrics are very ambiguous and can be interpreted in many different ways. It can mean, as has been said already, that she's refusing to feel ashamed for having gotten pregnant. But it could also be read at least two other ways. It could mean that by giving her child away she won't have to fear being ashamed because the "evidence" is gone; this seems implausible because the song is too sad for such a sentiment. Another, more plausible, reading is that she's not ashamed of the adoption itself; maybe she views this sad decision as a mature one that she approaches with a certain degree of pride in knowing she's doing what's best for the child. I actually like this interpretation the best of all, but I think it's impossible to know exactly what Joni meant when she wrote that lyric. I'm not entirely sure that it matters--she very well may have written the ambiguity on purpose. Goddess knows she was probably a morass of different emotions at the time, and she just about captured all of them. - --Michael, adoptee NP: Maxwell, _Maxwell's Urban Hang Suite_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:22:07 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: Janet & the BOBW All I know about this tribute thing is that k.d. lang is supposedly doing "Help Me," and that's about the best matching of artist and song I've ever heard of in my entire life. - --Michael, who's seeing Janet on July 9 and is neither sad, sorry, nor ashamed of that NP: still Maxwell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:37:15 -0400 From: "M & C Urbanski" Subject: Re: you're kidding, right? - ---------- > From: Kenny Grant > To: joni@smoe.org; terstan@prysm.net; Howard Motyl > Subject: Re: you're kidding, right? > Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 9:18 PM > > You snipe so steady, you snub so snide > So ripe and ready, to diminish and deride > Oh you're so quick to condescend, my opinionated friend > All you deface, all you defend > Is just a borderline, just a borderline. > > Joni Mitchell > Borderline > > Hey Howard, > > You know, not everyone in our little cyber community has spent the requisite > number of days/weeks reading every interview at jmdl.com and jonimitchell.com. > And with new people visiting daily, many don't own a tape tree, and others > can't even tell you what one is.... > This is a discussion list, not an honors class. And if I ever misquote a Joni > fact here, the last thing I'd want someone to do is jump down my throat. > > So lighten up :-) > > -Kenny > > After reading below, all I could think was--and you call yourself a Joni > > fan. Joni was NOT at Woodstock. She was in New York City. She has the > > told the story countless times. > > > > Subject: joni at woodstock > > > > Mike (terstan) Right on Kenny!!!! Marilyn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:43:47 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Litho framing question Sherrie, Excellent framing advice! I'm going to re-do mine at some point and I think the idea of the mat being the color of her eyes is absolutely *perfect*. And I personally would not cut out the mat for the signature, either. I've seen it done on fox and hounds lithos where the script is printed but agree it would not look right on the Joni. And like Steve, I was terribly impressed with the frames around Joni's paintings at the tapings. Some of them are works of art in themselves and must have cost a small fortune. Joni knows her stuff. Spent this beautiful day playing hooky, buying more music and cruising through Bel Air. Thought of Duane and all the good times we had a month ago. Actually saw the stretch of road from Joni's Jacaranda painting! The Jacaranda are still blooming violet after almost three months which is amazing. They usually are only violet for about a month - more El Nino phenomena. Wondered if Joni was out with her paint brushes today. Kakki NP: Why Do Fools Fall In Love - Joni and the Persuasions ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:48:03 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: you're kidding, right? M & C Urbanski wrote: > > ---------- > > From: Kenny Grant > > To: joni@smoe.org; terstan@prysm.net; Howard Motyl > > Subject: Re: you're kidding, right? > > Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 9:18 PM > > > > You snipe so steady, you snub so snide > > So ripe and ready, to diminish and deride > > Oh you're so quick to condescend, my opinionated friend > > All you deface, all you defend > > Is just a borderline, just a borderline. > > > > Joni Mitchell > > Borderline > > > > Hey Howard, > > > > You know, not everyone in our little cyber community has spent the > requisite > > number of days/weeks reading every interview at jmdl.com and > jonimitchell.com. > > And with new people visiting daily, many don't own a tape tree, and > others > > can't even tell you what one is.... > > > This is a discussion list, not an honors class. And if I ever misquote a > Joni > > fact here, the last thing I'd want someone to do is jump down my throat. > > > > > So lighten up :-) > > > > -Kenny > > > > After reading below, all I could think was--and you call yourself a > Joni > > > fan. Joni was NOT at Woodstock. She was in New York City. She has > the > > > told the story countless times. > > > > > > Subject: joni at woodstock > > > > > > Mike (terstan) > > Right on Kenny!!!! > > Marilyn I APOLOGIZED TO THE GUY BEFORE ANY OF YOU SENT ME LETTERS. ALRIGHT ALREADY. I KNEW I WAS WRONG. MEA CULPA. MEA CULPA. SEND ME TO THE MAGDELENA LAUNDRIES OR SOMETHING. YIKES. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:21:14 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist In a message dated 98-06-25 17:14:46 EDT, LRFye@aol.com writes: << However, most people do understand the signficance of a performer being featured last. The biggest favor that Joni's management could do her and themselves would be to insure that Joni is the last act on Saturday night. Which is as it should be, don't you think? Lori in San Antonio >> Need I remind you. Lori, that such billing was promised to Jimi Hendrix at the original Woodstock, but the only people who heard him play at that show were those who were cleaning up the mountain of trash early Monday morning. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:21:10 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist In a message dated 98-06-25 14:15:56 EDT, kg@ibm.net writes: << Something tells me she's gonna be forced make a few more compromises this time, or risk a very poor reception -- something she (or anyone) never likes, but also something she can't afford career-wise, as this event is much higher profile, and will likely be filmed and eventually seen by possibly hundreds of millions (HBO?, pay-per-view?, home video). -Kenny who's probably gonna "wait for the video" >> All the more reason, Kenny, for our Joni to stick to her guns and play the new stuff. When I heard she had agreed to peform in this show, the first thought that occurred to me was that they were going to bring her in to sing the theme "Woodstock" much like Kate Smith singing God Bless America before a Philadelphia Flyers game or something, and then send her on her way. Considering the rest of the lineup, I don't know that I'd want to trudge through miles of mud for such a show, but then I've paid my megaconcert dues, having attending along with 600,000 others the all-day Summer Jam on July 29, 1973, with the Grateful Dead, the Band and the (recently opoular on this list) Allman Bros. Band. Though that was a great Bill Graham production, the experience makes me thknk I'm not sure I'd want to risk my life and limb for this Woodstock '98. Paul I ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #221 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?