From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #220 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, June 25 1998 Volume 03 : Number 220 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Unchained Melody [Seanapper@aol.com] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation ["Kakki" ] Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts. ["Deb Messling" ] S&L review [Robert Holliston ] NJC: Dinos, Neil Young [Howard Wright ] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [M.Russell@iaea.org] Re: Unchained Melody [WirlyPearl@aol.com] Fw: Imaginary Battles ["Eric Jaimes" ] Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts. [Jerry Notaro ] Re: Imaginary Battles [Jason Maloney ] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [Don Sloan ] Re: Imaginary Battles [Mark or Travis ] Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts. [LRFye@aol.com] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation (addendum) [M.Russell@iaea.org] NJC Gillian Welch [Steve Dulson ] More provacative mother/daughter stuff [Steve Dulson ] Joni's Shame -- Fact or Fiction? ["Don Rowe" ] Re: More Sad Songs and ME Too! [Phyliss Ward ] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [Phyliss Ward ] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Fwd: Re: Friday Confessional Twist... [jan gyn ] re: fact or fiction? [Michael Heath ] Re: Unchained Melody [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Alanis and other pretenders [jan gyn ] Re: Unchained Melody [Michael Heath ] Re: Imaginary Battles--NJC [Bounced Message ] Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts.--long recollection [Bounced Mes] Nectarfest (NJC) [kbarnicle@ensr.com] Thread bearer? [Les Irvin ] Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts.--long recollection [Marsha Doyl] Dear Al: More Angst for Analysis ["Don Rowe" ] Re: midwest [AZVIRGO@aol.com] Re: Dear Al: More Angst for Analysis [jan gyn ] the Allman Brothers (NJC) [sherrie.good@chronicle.com] Re: Thread bearer? [Ashara@aol.com] Woodstock '98 Setlist [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist [Susan McNamara ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:59:42 EDT From: Seanapper@aol.com Subject: Unchained Melody kbarnicle@ensr.com wrote: "I have been listening for the past couple of weeks to Wild Things Run Fast! What a great album! I love Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody. I would like to know more about the Unchained Melody part. Like, who wrote is, recorded it, etc." ****************** Hi Katie, It is nice the way the two songs are combined, isn't it? They make a sort of a bittersweet image of facing one's own aging process while reminiscing about the past. As for who wrote Unchained Melody, I looked in the Joni Anthology songbook, and the credits list Hy Zaret (words) and Alex North (music). Although I've heard the song on the radio many times over the years, I can't think of who recorded the "classic" version of it. I do know that Willy Nelson also recorded it on his Stardust cd. It may be hard to imagine Willy covering that song, but it really works! 'Course, I like Willy. Neil in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:01:59 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation Al wrote: >But I believe that Joni is honest, or she tries to be honest. She really wants people to know who she is. >But no one is objective about "who they really are." Joni shows us a great deal, but at the same time, we >know that some songs were aborted because of direct or imaginary maternal influence. So, as I said >elsewhere, the only question is to what extent she is demonized by her mother's shame--real or imagined. Yes, I am somewhat upset, as you would be, if you suddenly realized that your idol might actually >be caught up in chains that she painted for someone else. It's bad enough to be stuck in the Magdalene >Laundries, but to be symbolicly stuck there because of stuff that's in your >own head--that's tragic. Is that Joni's tragedy? As has already stated here, I think any holding back on Joni's part stemmed not from shame but out of respect for her mother's feelings, which there is no shame in. Is Joni really stuck in chains if she did not say all she felt in some lyrics? If I had the choice between my free expression and hurting a loved one, the choice would be clear to me and I would feel no sense of compromise or tragedy. I've also wondered about Joni's relationship with her parents as revealed by some hints in her songs. I have a sense of identification from being another creative only child careening through life on alpha waves while the majority is running on beta. My mother still to this day is telling me to "snap out of it" while my father is still saying "leave the girl alone." My father is understanding - he was an artist. But I think it can be challenging for any parent to raise and understand a creative child. I'm sure Joni's mother, rather than being some abusive, uptight moralist, probably is just a little overprotective of her girl and will always be. Creative people can be too open for their own good in the eyes of those who care for them. As Joni (like most creative people) was compelled to travel through and seek many experiences in her life, her mother probably could not help but fret a lot and think "oh no, what's she going to get herself into now?" However, where you have to give Joni's parents much credit is in the fact that they completely supported her pursuit of painting and music from the time she was a child. They never stifled that and actively encouraged it. By doing so they showed the highest love and respect for her individuality. Kakki he father's a creative nonconformist and the mother is ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:58:36 +0000 From: "Deb Messling" Subject: Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts. At an event like this, how early do we have to be there to make sure we can SEE Joni? If I'm gonna be a mile from the stage, I'd rather stay home and watch my video of the Dick Cavett show. I can only come on Saturday. Does anyone know how these things work? Do the Friday people leave blankets to save their spaces? Deb Messling "Without music, life would be an error." --Friedrich Nietzsche ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 03:42:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: Joni mother-shame fixation Kakki wrote: > If I had the choice between my free expression and hurting a loved one, the > choice would be clear to me and I would feel no sense of compromise or > tragedy. I agree, but also think it's a bit ironic that Joni's lyrics have to be defended in this way. The fact that Joni wrote Let the Wind Carry Me and Happiness is the Best Facelift in the first place indicates that she is open and uncompromising in the way she deals with this relationship. If she were as oppressed as Al Date has stated she is, these songs wouldn't have reached us at all. (Am I alone in this, or is there a certain amount of aw-come-on-mom! teasing in Facelift?) I remember reading that Joni's dad responded to the nude photo in For The Roses by saying, "Myrtle, that's what the kids are doing now." She obviously went ahead and did what she felt was right without getting mom's permission! > I've also wondered about Joni's relationship with her parents as revealed by > some hints in her songs. Joni is almost the only singer/songwriter of her generation who has written in any detail or with any depth about her relationship with her parents - my friend Colin can answer this: I know Carly Simon has had major parental issues to deal with, but has she done this in songs? I've only read the excerpt from her upcoming book. I know Bob Dylan wrote Mama, You've Been On My Mind, but IMHO, that could as easily be about an ex-lover: there is no margin of doubt that Joni is taliking about her parents in, say, Let The Wind Carry Me. > I'm sure Joni's mother, rather than being some abusive, uptight moralist, > probably is just a little overprotective of her girl and always will be. I agree totally! In yet another interview, Joni relates that a neighbour asked Myrtle, "So, what's Joan doing?" And Joni's mom answered, "She's in New York; she's a musician," to which the neighbour responded, "Oh, you poor woman!" When Joni related this story, there was *definitely* a sense of mother/daughter conspiracy. I was so charmed when I watched the Come In From The Cold video to learn that Joni's mom likes to put on the headphones and dance around the kitchen to Dancing Clown - it made me feel way closer to that song than I'd ever been before. > However, where you have to give Joni's parents much credit is in the fact >that > they completely supported her pursuit of painting and music from the time >she > was a child. They never stifled that and actively encouraged it. By doing so > they showed the highest respect for her individuality. Amen - Kakki, that was a very beautiful and thought-provoking post! Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 04:22:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: S&L review Hey everyone, In the aftermath of Shadows and Light being re-released (complete) in HDCD format, and considering recent Joni-related threads, I'm posting the following excerpt from Stephen Holden's November 13, 1980 review for Rolling Stone. The entire review is, of course, available on Les' JMDL site. Please bear with me: it'll be fun! After describing S&L as "one of a handful of great live rock albums" - YES! - - Holden goes on to say: Perhaps more directly than anyone except Mick Jagger, Joni Mitchell has always acknowledged the inseparability of sexual curiosity and rock music. Having satisfied her curiosity Mitchell probably knows better than most of us the high price to be paid for such knowledge..... Constructing seemingly conflicting images of darkness and light, benefactors and parasites, law abiders and lawbreakers, the singer states her belief in the absolute relativity of moral standards and the ultimate indivisibility of good and evil. "Shadows and Light," like much of the album named after it, is a translucent masterpiece that embodies both the personal freedom and artistic majesty rock and roll continually strives for but rarely attains. Roberto (no $0.02 to add to that....) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:08:18 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: NJC: Dinos, Neil Young From: jan gyn >I TOTALLY HATE dinosaurs like the Stones or Led Zep or Neil >Young. (I mean I hate them now, not the stuff they did in the late 60s.) > >- -jan I would separate out Neil from the others here. I think he has been true to himself from his very first album, producing great music (as well as average music) for more than 30 years. I don't see him as a dinosaur at all, but as an innovator - yes, even now! His guitar playing, for instance, just gets better and better. And the "Weld" live album he did a few years back with Crazy Horses shows he (and the Horse) still have the same power. When Neil loses himself in one of his solos, he is one of very few people that seem to get close to recapturing the spirit and creativity of Hendrix (despite Neil's technique!) I think he has a new album out soon - I'm certainly looking forward to that! Howard ******************************************************* Howard.Wright@ed.ac.uk Formula music, girly guile Genuine junk food for juveniles Up and down the dial Mercenary style - Joni Mitchell ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:13:16 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation Al Date wrote: << I am looking for specific motivation [for giving up Kelly >> << Dale for adoption], in Joni's case. She writes in Little >> << Green that "she grows tired of the lies she is sending >> << Home." So, it is clear that Mother is weighing heavily >> << on her mind, prior to adoption, and that HOME is still >> << "where mom is." >> It *is* rather amazing that she managed to keep her pregnancy, the birth, the year and half of motherhood and the adoption totally secret from her parents. However, it is important not to divorce what occurred from the timeframe in which it occurred. This was *1964-65* - i.e., pre-women's-liberation, and out-of-wedlock pregnancies were still considered unfortunate and shameful - probably even more so in Canada. "Nice girls" didn't get pregnant - which is a message Joni surely got not only from her mother, but also from the society of that time, as she has said in interviews. I don't think she felt particularly *ashamed* about it all, though. In Little Green, she also writes: "So you sign all the papers in the family name, you're sad and you're sorry [to have to give the baby away], but you're not ashamed [that you had her in the first place]". You can do something in your life which goes against society's mores and not feel guilty about it, but other people will make you *PAY* for it through their contempt, and that is a painful thing to experience even when it's coming from individuals that you have no particular regard for, and particularly when it's coming from people that you do love and care about (in Facelift "I shouldn't have come, she made me pay") even if you're 50+ years old! Think of the shunning practice of the Amish community - would you like to be treated that way by people you loved, even if you were totally psychologically healthy (is there such a thing?)? And anyway, Joni doesn't modify her behavior to please her mother, does she? Otherwise, she either would have been too inhibited to have taken up with Donald in the first place - or she would have dropped him like a hot rock upon her mother's disapproval. If we think about this situation she was in back in 1965, I think we also have to consider Joni's own creative fire bursting at the seams. She clearly felt driven to express her visions and her songs in the bright lights and she couldn't be where she is now - could not have created and expressed and explored as much as she has - if she had had the entire burden of raising a child. Even if she had had a husband, she really would have needed a full-time nanny, too. I mean, do you think she could have found a man willing to stay home and do the childcare in 1965? And even if she had, would they have been able to live on her income initially? Would she ever have written Tin Angel, All I Want, A Case of You, Carey, Car on the Hill, Court and Spark, Man to Man .... (and you know there may be more!). And then there is the hard reality of a crying baby and dirty diapers and little or no sleep. This is difficult enough even when you choose to go down this path and you have someone who travels with you and helps you out. It is a nightmare when you are young and all alone - I know because I have been there! And you know all alone that you are not enough. You really need a full time job and it's very exhausting to work all day and do child care all alone in the evening. It's also very painful to farm your child out every day to inadequate childcare facilities and caretakers who probably don't really care all that much. Isn't it better that she's at least with someone who really wants her and will really love her and be able to give her everything that you never can - a normal family life and stability, maybe even brothers and sisters? <> I'm taking this a little out of context now, because I have no stance on the lyrics of Liz or Alanis - I don't know their music or their lyrics at all - but my reaction to your statement above is: Maybe they are still rebelling? Isn't there a kind of rebelliousness in needing to use naughty words all the time? It seems like more of a juvenile thing to me, than any kind of "freedom" or "liberation" from a parent's tyranny. As TerryM said, much more eloquently: > Who's to say that all of these women aren't struggling with the same issue, > Al? Some are just more overt- in your face about it- while others are subtle. > The little kid on the playground who says "your mom's a shit" could easily be > working on the same issues as the kid who belts him in the mouth for saying > it. Same song different words. << ... we know that some songs were aborted because >> << of direct or imaginary maternal influence. So, as I said >> << elsewhere, the only question is to what extent she is >> << demonized by her mother's shame--real or imagined. >> I don't she has been demonized at all. I would say, on the whole, Joni has been true to herself and pretty balanced in her approach to life. I feel that Joni's mother has been a mostly positive influence and very supportive. << If I am angry, it is because I feel that Joni is being >> << cheated out of a full life. >> By whom? You think she doesn't have/hasn't had a full life? You don't ever envy the visions in her head even momentarily? I think she is one of the richest people who has ever lived on earth! She is beautiful, smart, funny, compassionate, charming, as prolific and down to earth as Shakespeare and as multi-talented as Leonardo da Vinci! What more could anyone want in their life??!?!?!?! << She is killing herself with >> << cigarettes. >> She is probably in denial about her mortality, which is pretty normal. The cigarette monster is a pretty hard one to get off your back. If anyone wants help with this, let me know - I'll send you the article I wrote about it! << She is highly prolific as an artist, but as >> << it is with all great artists, I believe she is demonized. >> I really and truly disagree, Al. Sorry, but I do! << And the demon in this case is a visage of mom >> << which has convinced her that she is a fallen woman. >> No, no, no! << That is why she could so easily, and with such force,>> << fall into the role of one of the retched women at the >> << Magdalene Laundries, a place which she had only >> << encountered in a newspaper article, for chrissakes! >> I think this story was just simply astonishing to Joni - that someone could be banished to the Laundries just for being single and beautiful! Maybe she related to the character in the story from that standpoint - you know, like if she had lived there during that time, she probably would have been banished, just for being rebellious and beautiful! And what an injustice that would have been!!! It is simply Joni telling us an incredible story and shining her moral torchlight on the "bloodless brides of Jesus" - the nuns who, "if they had just once glimpsed their groom" would know immediately how horribly misguided and wrong the banishment of these poor women was. << Who could do that!? >> Joni can do it! She has done it a lot in fact - used image(s)/idea(s) from literature, picture(s) in magazines, whatever her artist's eagle eye spies as raw material to weave into a good story for a song. Marcie, Blue Boy, Nathan La Franeer, Turbulent Indigo, Two Grey Rooms, etc. etc. She has the ability to combine her painterly visions with her genius for storytelling into incredibly beautiful songs that move us all very deeply. I think you have to be pretty together on most levels to be able to do this. I don't think Joni is haunted at all! She would probably laugh at you if you said that! Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:27:34 EDT From: WirlyPearl@aol.com Subject: Re: Unchained Melody kbarnicle@ensr.com wrote: >"I have been listening for the past couple of weeks to Wild Things Run Fast! >What a great album! I love Chinese Cafe/Unchained Melody. I would like to >know more about the Unchained Melody part. Like, who wrote is, recorded it, >etc." I think the "classic version" of this song that many of us may remember, was sung by The Righteous Brothers in the mid '60's. It brings back memories of doing slow dances to that at camp. I think it was written in the '40's. That version was revived again as the theme song for the movie "Ghost." Remember Demi Moore and Patrick Swayze making pottery at the wheel? mmmmm........ Pearl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:57:35 -0400 From: "Eric Jaimes" Subject: Fw: Imaginary Battles - ---------- From: Eric Jaimes To: jason.maloney@virgin.net Cc: joni@cmoe.org Subject: Imaginary Battles Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 8:54 AM Jason writes: "First the Alanis battle, now Paul trying to do the same here....." FYI - there was no "battle," only discussion..... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:58:48 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts. djp wrote: > And I loved Richie Havens, though I haven't > heard anything he's done in decades. He plays frequently here in Florida. Like fine wine, he is better now than ever. And he a very funny, literate man. His stories could fill a rock history text book. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:35:00 +0000 From: terstan Subject: joni at woodstock Bill wrote that Joni wrote Woodstock by hearing about it....actually i believe she was there even though she didn't perform...i seem to remember seeing video of behind the scenes Woodstock and Joni was there....Is my memory correct...anyone know for sure? Mike (terstan) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:58:25 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Imaginary Battles Eric Jaimes wrote: > > Jason writes: > > "First the Alanis battle, now Paul trying to do the same here....." > > FYI - there was no "battle," only discussion..... Oh dear. I'd better keep myself to myself in future. Every time I open my mouth on these damn lists, I get stroppy replies. I don't like the tone that "FYI" implies. It's totally unnecessary. I'm going back to join the silent lurkers..... Jason ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:27:22 -0700 From: Don Sloan Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation Colin wrote: > I think i get what you are saying now. If Joni is in that space you > describe, it is indeed sad. However, it isn't that simple to ditch such > demons. > Shame is quite different from guilt. Shame is about feeling bad at the > core, not good enough, defective. When that shame is put there as a > child by parents, it can take a life time to be rid of it, if indeed it > is ever got rid of. Shooting somewhat from the hip here at a very early hour after little sleep, me thinks: Great post, Colin! I think you hit a big nail on the head with this one. May I suggest that legions of folks raised in the 40s-50s have been burdened to some degree with this *issue* - it is almost the hallmark of the times. You know, "Do good, be good, then you will be a success, we will be proud and everytning will be okay" (meaning the staus quo will be maintained). I became aware of these and similar concepts after reading John Bradshaw and watching his PBS special (10 hours I think) on "The Family". If there's truth to this as a generational *curse* (if you will), I have to wonder (and shudder) about the generational issues of a large group raised as latchkey kids, many treated with less respect and given less care/concern/genuine love than many of us give our dogs and cats. I work with these kids every day, and as the latchkey syndrome is more a part of this society, the kids act out in crazier and crazier, more *in your face* "who gives a fuck?" ways. Mind you, I'm not necessarily agreeing here with the *bigness* of Al's commentary on Joni and her mother, but I do believe all of us have our issues to learn from, to become liberated from... and, IMO, that's the reason we are on the planet. Peace and Loving Liberation To All!! signing as Don S. since there's another Don posting to the list now :-). NP: Joan Baez: David's Album ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:28:19 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Imaginary Battles Jason Maloney wrote: > > Eric Jaimes wrote: > > > > Jason writes: > > > I'm going back to join the silent lurkers..... Please don't! You have a right to your opinion the same as anybody else. If someone disagrees with you, so what? Your message was well-intended. Sometimes when things get heated here we come *this close* to starting flame wars. But usually that doesn't happen. The people on the Joni list are mostly not interested in getting into name-calling and back-biting. A lot of us like to argue but not to deliberately hurt one another. So please, let us hear from you Jason! We'll do our best to respect your opinions. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:36:52 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts. Deb M. asked: > Does anyone know how these things work? > Do the Friday people leave blankets to save their spaces? Deb, you've gotta get there early, early, early! And I have a feeling that the Friday crowd might be markedly different from the Saturday crowd, if the music is as extreme as Megadeath and Joni. No one will leave there blanket; if they do, it will be gone! My thought is that all JMDLers should (of course) wear their snazzy Internet community shirts, and collect as close to perhaps one side of the stage as possible. Would a banner help? I will go early and wave my flag ... Lori in San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:42:59 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation (addendum) I just wanted to add that Joni may have been reluctant to go "home" or to let her parents know about her situation, not merely out of fear of their reaction, but also out of fear of shaming her parents within their community/social circle. Maybe she wanted them to be able to feel unconditionally proud of her among their friends, which they (or at least her mother) would not have been able to do if they had found out about her pregnancy. This is just a guess, based on what she has said about Mary Waddington (Cherokee Louise) in various interviews in which she describes the harsh judgement of the community. Would they have shunned her parents for her behavior? Wouldn't you want to protect your parents from something like this? I certainly would! Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:07:28 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: NJC Gillian Welch Ric said: >i love deeper well, and can't >remember if we said goodbye, and orphan girl A shameless plug for Gillian Welch's CD "Revival", which contains her original "Orphan Girl". The person who doesn't like "hillbilly music" probably won't like the twang, but it is a peerless new-folk masterpiece, IMHO. It's a good job my opinions are so moderate, isn't it? :) ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:04:26 -0700 From: Steve Dulson Subject: More provacative mother/daughter stuff I told myself not to read Al's post...then I told myself not to react...then I wrote this. >If I am angry, it is because I feel that Joni is being cheated out of >a full life. OK, hands up - how many would like to have led as full a life as Joni? >She is killing herself with cigarettes. It's her choice, right? >And the demon in this case is a visage of mom, which >has convinced her that she is a fallen woman. That is why she could >so easily, and with such force, fall into the role of one of the retched women >at the Magdalene Laundries, a place which she had only encountered in a >newspaper article, for chrissakes! OK, and the fact that she could "so easily, and with such force, fall into the role" of Beethoven ("Judgement of the Moon and Stars") means...what? Or the suburban housewives of "Hissing" and "Harry's House" means...I could go on. >Who could do that!? An artist. A creative person. Someone who can invent and inhabit roles. Nothing personal, Al, but I think you're way off-beam here. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:07:56 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Joni's Shame -- Fact or Fiction? The thread unwinding from Al's original analysis makes what I think is a fundamental error. All have automatically assumed that Joni lyrics, to the extent of entire songs, are treatments from her life ... taken from the whole cloth of her experience and then thinly disguised in lyrical poetry. Many valiant posts have made references to interviews with Joni on the "subject" of many of the songs in question in support of this idea. The fact is, Joni's own experience is merely the raw genetic material of her work. It is the genesis of a lyrical fiction that transcends the experience itself. Into the fabric of this fiction are woven broken snippets of overheard conversations, tears shed while reading great literature, tastes of ice cream, the tingle of the fingers as the brush meets the canvas ... and while the end result can sound like shame, guilt or fear ... the fact remains that the song itself is a *fiction*, with perhaps only a co-incidental resemblance to the characters and events of a real life. The fact that Joni politely points to the starting points of her songs for well-meaning interviewers asking "What's this song about?" is just her way of avoiding having to say, "the song is what the song's about." Because that's not what we want to hear. I look at it like this ... If we are to judge Magdalene Laundries as a confession of the shame and guilt of Joni's life, we'd better be prepared to look at "Amelia" as a conversation that actually took place between Joni and the long-dead aviator. And that, I think, is no further a leap of logic than to declare Joni "demonized." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:11:47 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: More Sad Songs and ME Too! Me Too! ;-) Dare ya... Phyliss Ashara@aol.com wrote: Hugs, > Ashara {who was thinking......If I got kicked off this list for saying "me, > too"....., without actually saying "me, too," I would have a clean house, > bills paid, the state would give me back my children, I could go back to work, > and we would have food in our refrigerator again!} ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:28:32 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation Don Sloan wrote: > I do believe all of us have our issues to learn from, to become liberated > from... and, IMO, that's the reason we are on the planet. Ah yes, me (and Joni) too again ;-) Maybe it is just the time of year Maybe it's the time of man I don't know who I am But life is for learning (all join in here!) We are stardust We are golden And we've got to get ourselves Back to the Gaaaaaaaaaaaarden (sooner than later) Phyliss ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:41:55 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation In a message dated 6/25/98 1:13:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM writes: << Yes, I am somewhat upset, as you would be, if you suddenly realized that your idol might actually be caught up in chains that she painted for someone else. It's bad enough to be stuck in the Magdalene Laundries, but to be symbolicly stuck there because of stuff that's in your own head--that's tragic. Is that Joni's tragedy? >> Al, I appreciate that we can continue discussing this while keeping a level head, even at the points of disagreement. And at that, let me share that I disagree with the above. I still believe that great artists often create out of conflict. An adult's relationships are dictated (in part) by how that person managed in earlier relationships, ie. the parents. True mental health does mean living for oneself, with honesty and empathy towards others, in a healthy manner. Heck, I don't think I know many people who fit that bill! We all carry baggage from our earliest relationships (the parents), and we choose how to work through that. The songwriters who use "in your face" language may certainly be rebelling, as Marian pointed out, but I think Joni is working her issues out in an amazingly creative and honest way. Joni is on a lonely road (aren't we all?) and traveling traveling traveling.. ...but loads of others are standing at the door with their ticket crumpled in their hand. Perhaps what we may be guilty of here, is expecting her to be above the rest of us, emotionally. Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:57:06 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Friday Confessional Twist... At 09:37 PM 6/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hi all, >I got this on the Allman Brothers mailing list. >I used a Joni Mitchell CD that someone left at my house as a coaster for about >three months. Then after that, I played frisbee golf with it a couple of >times. I tried playing it just outta curiousity and got some noise that >sounded like the alien message being picked up by SETI dishes in bad sci-fi >movies. > What surprises me is that an Allman Brothers fan would use a coaster, or even know what one was. - -jan :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:13:59 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Re; joan Armatrading (NJC) A >Somebody once told me that Joan A. responded the question 'Do you listen >to Tracy Chapman?' by replying something like 'Why would I want to >listen to myself?' > >Mark in Seattle > Can we say SNAPPISH? I think that's a funny retort. If I can only use it somehow... - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:09:42 -0700 From: Michael Heath Subject: re: fact or fiction? Don Rowe wrote: >The fact is, Joni's own experience is merely the raw genetic material of her work. It is the genesis of a lyrical fiction that transcends the experience itself. Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou. cul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:11:49 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Unchained Melody In a message dated 98-06-25 03:03:33 EDT, Seanapper@aol.com writes: << As for who wrote Unchained Melody, I looked in the Joni Anthology songbook, and the credits list Hy Zaret (words) and Alex North (music). Although I've heard the song on the radio many times over the years, I can't think of who recorded the "classic" version of it. >> I want to say it was the Righteous Brothers, but I cannot document that. Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:11:56 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation In a message dated 98-06-25 08:15:12 EDT, M.Russell@iaea.org writes: << Even if she had had a husband, she really would have needed a full-time nanny, too. I mean, do you think she could have found a man willing to stay home and do the childcare in 1965? >> I was only 11, and I suppose I couldn't have gotten MY parents' OK, but I would have been willing to try. ;>) Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:26:53 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Alanis and other pretenders > She's so tough > Rip her to shreds' > >Some of Blondie's stuff was great IMO. > >Mark in Seattle > Blondie RULED, especially that first album. Man, 'X-offender', 'Rifle Range'... Debbie Harry was like the Hannah Schygulla of pop, with Joan being like the Liv Ullman or something... - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:27:03 -0700 From: Michael Heath Subject: Re: Unchained Melody Indeed it was the Righteous Bros IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-06-25 03:03:33 EDT, Seanapper@aol.com writes: > > << As for who wrote Unchained Melody, I looked in > the Joni Anthology songbook, and the credits list Hy Zaret (words) and Alex > North (music). Although I've heard the song on the radio many times over the > years, I can't think of who recorded the "classic" version of it. >> > > I want to say it was the Righteous Brothers, but I cannot document that. > > Paul I ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:40:48 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: Imaginary Battles--NJC From: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:17:54 EDT I<< I don't like the tone that "FYI" implies. >> I think this means "for your information", not "fuck you, imbecile". :) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:40:07 -0600 From: Bounced Message Subject: Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts.--long recollection From: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:15:00 EDT Deb wrote: << Does anyone know how these things work?>> YES << Do the Friday people leave blankets to save their spaces? >> Deb, your second question here is so sweetly naive, I thought I'd share my Woodstock '94 experience. The short answer is "no". Read on if you dare. Upon entry Friday evening to the grounds (after a completely mismanaged tour bus trip from Wash. D.C. courtesy of Target, the dept. store folks--I bought the package deal), there was no one in sight after we cleared the "security" entrance and therefore no directions. Both stage areas were filled by the time 3 of us arrived so we wandered for an hour over a mile away trying to find a few square feet of uninhabited space to plant our two tents. Again, I must stress that no one was available for directions or security or anything. It was OK though, kind of like non-threatening anarchy, since we found a place and everyone was positive and friendly. The folks in the tent next to us had somehow managed to get in the following items past metal detectors (and I was paranoid about a flask of bourbon!!): metal cooking grill with metal implements and a fully loaded nitrous tank. I'm not kidding. These guys were huffing nitrous all day and all night. I know because even during the 2 or 3 hours a night I was able to sleep (due to constant noise), I kept hearing the very loud sound of discharges from said container. After the rain turned everything into a nasty sea of mud on Saturday afternoon during Henry Rollin's electric set, the toilets could not be cleaned because the trucks couldn't get through the crowd and muddy terrain. It's not as though you can leave for a few minutes and find a McDonald's bathroom or a Holiday Inn for lodging--we were trapped there for 3 days. Let's just say that misophobes and xenophobes would not have enjoyed this at all. Sunday offered some respite from the madness as the crowd thinned to 200 or 300 thousand (most of them stoned and openly sharing with no fear of security infringing--very pleasant) and we were greeted with wonderful sets by Porno for Pyros, Dylan and Red Hot Chili Peppers. We stood among trash, blankets, water bottles, pizza boxes and other assorted effects and filth. You couldn't sit on the ground and you would not have wanted to. The temperature dropped quite a bit as we headed for the bus area, I lost both shoes to the mud, and we finally got on board at 4 a.m. Monday morning for the ride back to DC. I shared my row with a barefoot woman covered from head to toe with dust and she reeked of peanuts! To be fair, I'm sure I was equally hygenic and attractive. Thank god I slept most of the way. So back to your question, will someone save you a space from Friday to Saturday? "In my dweems, we fly....." I think the website for this upcoming event says no camping which implies that they will clear the grounds at the end of each day so it may be tolerable. Have fun! I won't be there!! :-) Bob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 12:56:11 EDT From: kbarnicle@ensr.com Subject: Nectarfest (NJC) THIS JUST IN. This weekend, Nantucket Nectars (fruit juice drink) will be hosting the Nectarfest which will be held on Nantucket on Saturday and Martha's Vineyard on sunday. Performers include Rickie Lee Jones, David Crosby, Bo Diddley, Bob Weir, Arlo Guthrie, Livingston Taylor, Bruce Cockburn, Patty Larkin, Don Byron, and a bunch of local artists. If you plan on going, better make reservations NOW!!! Good Luck! Katie from the Cape ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:56:19 -0600 From: Les Irvin Subject: Thread bearer? Joniphiles - I sure hope that someone is willing to take the initiative to compile the current thread for the archives. Great stuff! Les "A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls." - -- Vice President Dan Quayle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:20:30 -0400 From: Marsha Doyle Subject: Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts.--long recollection Our Kingpin, once smelly, but still with charm to sway wrote: > Sunday offered some respite from the madness as the crowd thinned > to 200 or 300 thousand Bob, and hesitaters, This upcoming venue expects no more than 20,000 attendees, and maybe ticket sales will limit the numbers, and certainly the cost per day will limit many from attending. No camping and no food certainly will help sanitation. If I had not traveled twice to the West Coast from my backwaters of Tennessee to see Joni four times last month, I would certainly be going Saturday to Woodstock, especially if I lived within 500 miles of the venue, like so many of our devoted jonilist members seem to. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:23:29 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Dear Al: More Angst for Analysis I thought Dr. Al Date could have a field day with this one ... have at it man! LILITH INTERVIEW >According to Paula Cole, the nude photo on the cover of >her second album, "This Fire," reflects a change not just >in the way we see her, but in the way she sees herself: >"I know there's always gonna be some construction worker >checking out my a-- and making lewd comments, but it >doesn't have to affect me anymore. I can choose to be the >beautiful woman that I am. For so long I didn't believe >that, and I felt victimized by the psychic bombardment of >men. I decided I wasn't gonna be that victim anymore, I >was gonna be proud. So that album cover is symbolic of >that discovery. I chose to be naked because it was like a >rebirth." > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:29:07 EDT From: AZVIRGO@aol.com Subject: Re: midwest Although I presently live in Phoenix, effective mid-July, I'll be living a couple of miles south of Ann Arbor. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:36:15 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: Re: Dear Al: More Angst for Analysis I don't know about Al, but I just lost my appetite. - -jan At 10:23 AM 6/25/98 PDT, you wrote: >I thought Dr. Al Date could have a field day with this one ... have at >it man! > > LILITH INTERVIEW >>According to Paula Cole, the nude photo on the cover of >>her second album, "This Fire," reflects a change not just >>in the way we see her, but in the way she sees herself: >>"I know there's always gonna be some construction worker >>checking out my a-- and making lewd comments, but it >>doesn't have to affect me anymore. I can choose to be the >>beautiful woman that I am. For so long I didn't believe >>that, and I felt victimized by the psychic bombardment of >>men. I decided I wasn't gonna be that victim anymore, I >>was gonna be proud. So that album cover is symbolic of >>that discovery. I chose to be naked because it was like a >>rebirth." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:38:56 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: the Allman Brothers (NJC) i think most of the (negative) comments recently about the Allman Brothers Band have been made with jest, can i say, i like the Allman Brothers! they were a wonderful southern rock/blues band. Duane Allman was an amazing guitarist. i'm not saying i would want to hang out and drink beer with them, using a coaster or otherwise, but i liked them a lot back when. i think both of Greg Allman's solo releases were really good. probably most of you know this trivia, that it was a collaboration between Duane Allman and Eric Clapton that brought us Derick and the Dominoes, their biggest claim to fame being the song 'Layla.' all of you out there hovering around 40, do not try to tell me you didn't shake it down to that song back when... sherrie wishing Brad was here to add some music facts ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:42:45 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: Thread bearer? In a message dated 6/25/98 1:00:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, les@jmdl.com writes: << I sure hope that someone is willing to take the initiative to compile the current thread for the archives. Great stuff! >> Of course you are referring to the "me, too" thread that is currently going on. ;-) Hugs, Ashara {who just can't help herself} (See what happens when I fall so far behind? LOL!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 98 18:12:36 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Woodstock '98 Setlist I can't help but think that this time around Joni really won't have the luxury of playing the same setlist that she did on the recent mini-tour. I mean if Dylan and Van fans at 20,000 seat venues were fidgety, "craving something familiar" midway through her set, imagine the reaction of a couple of hundred thousand to a set with few hits... Something tells me she's gonna be forced make a few more compromises this time, or risk a very poor reception -- something she (or anyone) never likes, but also something she can't afford career-wise, as this event is much higher profile, and will likely be filmed and eventually seen by possibly hundreds of millions (HBO?, pay-per-view?, home video). -Kenny who's probably gonna "wait for the video" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:22:47 -0400 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Woodstock '98 Setlist As Dylan says, 'she's an artist, she don't look back!' I think the only song she is not going to get away with is the obvious. I bet everyone comes out and sings it with her! Remember it's a day at the garden!! >I can't help but think that this time around Joni really won't have the >luxury >of playing the same setlist that she did on the recent mini-tour. > ____________________ /____________________\ ||-------------------|| || Sue McNamara || || sem8@cornell.edu || ||___________________|| || O etch-a-sketch O || \___________________/ "It's all a dream she has awake" - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #220 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?