From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #219 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Thursday, June 25 1998 Volume 03 : Number 219 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [sherrie.good@chronicle.com] RE: Joni In Rolling Stone ["Happy The Man" ] Re: Tribute album... [Jason Maloney ] Fire and Rain [evian ] NJC..Stevie/Alanis/Neil [MP123A321@aol.com] Discord [Jason Maloney ] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [catman ] Re: Re; joan Armatrading (NJC) [Mark or Travis ] Re: Debates, jmdl-style [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Re; joan Armatrading (NJC) [catman ] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: Emmylou, Lucinda (NJC) [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: NJC radio madness [Heather ] Re: The Dancin' Close and Slow thread [LRFye@aol.com] Re: Emmylou [Mark or Travis ] Re: Alanis and other pretenders [Mark or Travis ] Re: a Mother minute ["Julie Z. Webb" ] oops [Fwd: JONI MOTHER'S DAY] [Phyliss Ward ] RE: Kate Bush tribute album (NJC) [trxschwa ] RE: joni no dino (smartass reply: really njc) [trxschwa ] Can I call you AL? ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Shameless Iris Plug [Marsha Doyle ] Re: Interesting thread... [TerryM2442@aol.com] Re: Chinese Cafe ["Guy Brown" ] Re: More Sad Songs [Ashara@aol.com] woodstock, second and third thoughts. [djp ] Re: John Kelly's appearance in Salzburg, Austria [Kenny Grant ] Joni mother-shame fixation [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] Re: Hejira and the Bass [Bmcd@aol.com] Alanis vs. Hanson ["Eric W Taylor" ] Re: Joni mother-shame fixation [catman ] Re: The Scary Part of Woodstock ["Eric W Taylor" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:11:38 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY Ricki did not say anything either in a mean tone or with any hypocrisy. i read her remarks as diplomatic and sincere, more than i can say about the post she was responding to. sherrie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:33:43 -0500 From: "Happy The Man" Subject: RE: Joni In Rolling Stone There is and article in Rolling Stone about THE TOUR. Joni gets third billing on the subtitle of "Bash of the Titans". The article is on Page 28-29. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:51:54 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Tribute album... IVPAUL42@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-06-24 12:23:47 EDT, jason.maloney@virgin.net writes: > > << Now, I've actually liked a lot of Janet's music down the years > (particularly the 80s stuff), but - however much of a "fan" she is of > Joni's music - to cover that song is a bad idea. The lyrics are a > personal account of an event in Joni's life, and the main thrust of the > song (and its strength) lies within this. Am I being too touchy? > >> > Yes, you are, Jason. > Under your theory, no one should have covered "Both Sides, Now" either. > > Paul I ...and to which cover version of Both Sides Now are you referring to? Paul, besides suspecting you are a bit of a "wind-up" merchant, you may have missed the point I was/am making.... Which was/is.....Janet Jackson singing Beat Of Black Wings is a mismatch made in - well, if not hell exactly, then somewhere slightly less nightmarish. Of course, there are many, many awful/ill-advised cover versions being released every month, but we can still air our opinions. Am I imagining things, or is there an element of discord stirring among this list? First the Alanis battle, now Paul trying to do the same here..... Healthy discussion and willful antagonism.....and there is but a fine line between them, it seems. Yours Peacefully, jason. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:55:17 -0600 From: evian Subject: Fire and Rain Hi, It's interesting to see this "Fire and Rain" thread happening, since I just recently printed up a batch of interviews of JT from Rolling Stone. This is what he has to say about "Fire and Rain". "'Fire and Rain' has three verses. The first verse is about my reaction to the death of a friend. The second verse is about my arrival in this country with a monkey on my back, and there Jesus is an expression of my desperation in trying to get through the time when my body was aching and the time was at hand when I had to do it.... and the third verse of the song refers to my recuperation in Austin Riggs [a Massachusetts hospital] which lasted about five months." This was taken from a 1973 interview with James and Carly in RS. This interview, along with a few other good ones, can be found at www.james-taylor.com, an awesome site for James fans. Evian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:00:58 EDT From: MP123A321@aol.com Subject: NJC..Stevie/Alanis/Neil I think she may play her mean tambourine. Did I hear her in a recent interview make fun of this? I am a reformed Stevie worshipper, please no flames. I also felt compelled to e-mail Eric in support of Alanis. I have been reading all these comments about other artists and couldn't seem to understand why others "defend" their likes in music on the list. Until....I just read the comment about Neil being a dinosaur, now I know what gets people going. Rust on !! I'm back to Hunting and Gathering. Maurice ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:07:57 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Discord Further to my last message, I've just been checking throught the rest of today's jmdl post and coming across yet more confrontation.... Well done, colin, for putting neil in his place. And yes, Don, I DO agree with what you were saying...... Now everyone, can we all TRY to get along :) Passing the peace pipe, Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:16:50 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY sherrie.good@chronicle.com wrote: > Ricki did not say anything either in a mean tone or with any > hypocrisy. i > read her remarks as diplomatic and sincere, more than i can say about > the > post she was responding to. > > sherrie Ric is man not a woman. He tolf Al off for being arrogant and hostile. Having received a particulalry nasty and offensive mail from him(disagreed with soemthing I wrote), I felt it was hypocritical of him to castigate someone else whose writing was no where near as offensive or hostile. I don't believe Al was deliberately trying to be hurtful or hostile. I don't agree with Al at all but he was not nasty to anyone, at least as far as I saw.colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:02:34 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Re; joan Armatrading (NJC) sherrie.good@chronicle.com wrote: if you really want to hear someone > who sounds so much like Joan it will blow you away, check out Sloan > Wainwright. Somebody once told me that Joan A. responded the question 'Do you listen to Tracy Chapman?' by replying something like 'Why would I want to listen to myself?' Anyone know if that's true? Maybe Joni isn't the only one with some issues about her so-called musical offspring, eh? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:06:03 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: NJC "Fire and Rain" Steve Dulson wrote: > > Don R. wrote: > > > I mean, think about all > > the horrendous covers of James Taylor's "Fire and Rain", which is a true > > story about the death of the woman he loved in a plane crash > > As I recall, James has described "Fire and Rain" as about a woman > named Suzanne whom he met in a mental institution, and who later > killed herself, the break-up of his band "Flying Machine" and his > heroine addiction. > > Two more cents. Steve's version is what I thought the song was about too. make that Four cents. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:11:43 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: Debates, jmdl-style In a message dated 98-06-24 16:52:15 EDT, docnurse@VoyagerOnline.net writes: << I see you more as our resident Don Rickles, Paul. ;-) Marshamouth (my name from grades 7-9) >> LOL! Nice to know I have a role. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:23:05 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Re; joan Armatrading (NJC) Mark or Travis wrote: > sherrie.good@chronicle.com wrote: > if you really want to hear someone > > who sounds so much like Joan it will blow you away, check out Sloan > > Wainwright. > > Somebody once told me that Joan A. responded the question 'Do you > listen > to Tracy Chapman?' by replying something like 'Why would I want to > listen to myself?' When the lovely Roberto visted me her in London, we talked about Joan Armatrading. I ended up buying her hits cd. Some I liked but didn't feel like going out and buying all her work.Yes Tracy has some similarity in her voice to Joans but not in her work. I have all of Tracy's cd's. maybe joan was referring to her likeness in voice rather material. the only artist i have come across that reminds of our joni is Dar Williams. She reminds me of joni lyrically and voice wise-especially the way she crams so many words into a bar or whatever you call it. In fact John(who not only knows music but has a trained bass voice!) when first hearing Dar asked who she was ' I thought it was joni at first'. Don't be daft i said. 'well she uses her voice like Joni does and her diction is very similar' was his reply. In other words he wasn't impressed! But then I think janet baker sounds like nails on a blackboard! bw colin > > > Anyone know if that's true? Maybe Joni isn't the only one with some > issues about her so-called musical offspring, eh? > > Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:28:36 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY i'm so bad.... and colin, i thot that was blood under the bridge! - ric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:28:41 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: Emmylou, Lucinda (NJC) sherrie - you took the words out of my mouth. i bought wrecking ball for my wife for christmas. didn't know anything about it, but i knew she was an emmylou fan and was looking for something to surprise her with. the disc is superb. i like it much more than my wife did and take it with me for long drives to listen to in the car. i love deeper well, and can't remember if we said goodbye, and orphan girl and the title cut and the one you mentioned and so many more. the only one i can't appreciate too well is the first one, which is almost atonal. but it gets 4 stars, with a bullet! anyone on the fence should take the plunge and buy it. what happened to emmylou's voice? i remember her with a sweet saprano, but she must smoke or something because her voice has this terrific, lived in sound now, raspy in places (like joni's can be) and quite soulful. it is just a great, great disc! see you! - ric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:41:53 -0400 From: Heather Subject: Re: NJC radio madness At 10:27 AM 6/24/98 -0500, you wrote: > I have to say that I am not as "up" on the new generation of musicians as >so many of you on the list. People like Heather, Yarbrough, Barbearuh, >Patrick, The Kingpin Bob and Rob Jordon come to mind, as folks who continue >to be a source of information of what's out there. Hiiiiidehoooooo Julie and all- My daughter thinks I'm pretty hip and cool. That's all that really matters to me. We've gone to concerts together (Yes, Rush, Van Halen for a few). We go to plays (Sunset Blvd. Les Miserable, Sunshine Boys). We go to poetry readings and museums. We also dine in fine resteraunts and wiz through Micky D's drive thru. Now that she is 21 she'll be able to go to the clubs with us too. This parenting "thang" is working out to be pretty cool! We're bridging the generation gap more and more every day. Heather ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 21:50:39 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: The Dancin' Close and Slow thread Julie asked and answered: > What's your favorite Joni MItchell song to slow dance to? Mine: "Two Grey Rooms." My favorite is Edith And The Kingpin. Its seductive melody draws me in like ... well, like cocaine used to do. Did Joni hit the nail on its head with that song? Amazing ... Lori San Antonio NP: Edith And The Kingpin, but my cat will not slow dance with me ... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:50:56 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Emmylou Anne Madden wrote: > I have recently discovered Iris Dement - she > is very very good - is anyone familiar with her music? I first stumbled > across her when I bought the soundtrack to the movie Horse Whisperer. On it > she sings Whispering Pines. I liked her voice so much I bought her most > recent CD called The Way I Should - it is great. > > Anne Hi Anne! I love Iris Dement! She has a wonderful voice and sings with that honesty and tone of voice 'that cannot be faked' as Joni puts it. The more I listen to her, the more impressed I am with her songwriting skills, too. She writes straight from the heart and has a great sense of melody. I highly recommend her other 2 CD's 'Infamous Angel' and 'My Life'. I really hope she develops a following. I saw her open for Emmylou last summer here in Seattle. The whole concert was great! Mark in Seattle 'Sweet is the melody So hard to come by It's so hard to make Every note bend just right You lay down the hours And leave not one trace But a tune for the dancing Is there in its place' -Iris Dement ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:55:35 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Alanis and other pretenders jan gyn wrote: > > > "When she walks, the revolution's coming > In her hips, there's revolution > When she talks, i hear the revolution" > -Rebel Girl Remember this one? 'You know her Would you look at that hair? You know her Check out those shoes... She looks like she stepped out Of the middle of somebody's blues... She's so tough Come on, rip her to shreds She's so tough Rip her to shreds' Some of Blondie's stuff was great IMO. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:54:45 -0700 From: briano@interisland.net (Odlum, Brian) Subject: Interesting thread... Hi folks, I was really enjoying the thread started by Al Date's comments regarding Joni and her mother. I don't necessarily agree with Al, but I think there was some substance, some small part of a truth, buried in his comments. There certainly were some interesting reactions from the group! Recently, the thread seems to have degenerated somewhat into personal attacks/defenses, as so often happens on the Internet. We probably can all benefit from a simple axiom: "Attack the man's ideas, not the man". The subject of an artists relationship(s) to his/her parents is worth exploring. I am personally interested in the dynamic of an intelligent and strong-willed woman married to a weaker but loving/supportive man when the pair have a daughter as an only child. This child is often a spectacular specimen of humanity. Can anyone think of examples? Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:02:54 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Iris DeMent mark - i too love iris dement, which is very atypical for me, because her brand of country is almost hillbilly style, and i am not a fan of hillbilly music. (i suppose that is a perjorative way of describing it, but i am referring to that twang sound - if there is a better term, i am unaware of it) but i love her and you hit it right on the head when you said she writes and sings straight from the heart. i have "my life" and just love it. the song about her father is a heartbreaker! "no time to cry." thanks for reminding me about her. i am going to go put her on right now! - ric by the way - i grew up in seattle. beautiful town huh? i had to move away and then come back to visit to really realize how gorgeous the pacific northwest is. too bad it's on the wrong ocean!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:23:22 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY In France they kiss on Main Street Amour Momma NOT CHEAP DISPLAY! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:43:45 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: a Mother minute At 06:54 PM 6/24/98 -0700, Brian wrote: >The subject of an artists relationship(s) to his/her parents is worth >exploring. Hi Brian and all, I've been thinking about this concept all day today while at the swimming pool: the dilemma of the confessional artist's relationship to his/her parents. (I realize that JM doesn't like to be considered "confessional" in her art, but it seems to me that she often writes in a first person mode, making frequent "I" statements .) So while the sun was beating down on me, writers like Pat Conroy, author of "The Great Santini" and "The Prince of Tides" and Tobias Wolf's "This Boy's Life," came to mind. I've heard/read interviews with these authors and the inevitable question concerning the depiction of their parents always comes up. And basically the response is that when all is said and done, the parents are proud of the success of their children and accept that "it's all part of the business." I tend to get the feeling, anyway, that a lot is embellished by these writers. We really don't know how much is actually autobiographical in Joni's lyrics. And then I took a moment to imagine myself writing a song, and suppose it came out of a moment when I was in a frustrated, pissy mood and a reference to my mother is made. Should that one song, then, define my relationship with my mother? It's just a song. -Julie, who says we're all just particles of change orbiting around the sun ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:45:19 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: oops [Fwd: JONI MOTHER'S DAY] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------577C6F519F32BB644A5C257D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This quote was meant to be RE: Liz Phair! Sorry! Phyliss - --------------577C6F519F32BB644A5C257D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: owner-joni@smoe.org Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [204.216.64.33]) by raiden.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20188 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mermaid.shore.net (mermaid.shore.net [207.244.124.6]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA17574 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] by mermaid.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0yp1j4-0004dH-00; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:25:27 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id WAA00889; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:25:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id WAA00876 for joni-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (root@lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net [204.216.64.33]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with ESMTP id WAA00872 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lightspeed.net (204-216-67-218.lightspeed.net [204.216.67.218]) by lsbsdi1.lightspeed.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17348 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3591B49A.8D63381F@lightspeed.net> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:23:22 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: Phyliss Ward Precedence: bulk In France they kiss on Main Street Amour Momma NOT CHEAP DISPLAY! - --------------577C6F519F32BB644A5C257D-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:19:48 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: Kate Bush tribute album (NJC) hey sean, i've checked out your website several times, loved the interview and am really intrigued by this tribute album. it's odd, as great as joni is, a lot of songs of hers DEMAND to be covered, even newer ones. she's said she called sinead about 'laundries', which would have been perfect. (maybe it's about sinead's mom {sorry, don't know the emoticon for eyes rolling}) but kate, reinterpreted, that's a concept. she's such a powerful shaper of her sound. i understand there's an interesting version of 'this woman's work' out there i may get to hear in a week or two. patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:48:27 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: joni no dino (smartass reply: really njc) i won't hear bad about those barney artists... i saw jane siberry at the bottom line a couple of months ago, a completely solo show with spoken word as well as song. at one point she sat down at the piano, gave us a dreadfully serious look and said 'this is for the big purple one. i cannot say more." she then attempted to play a children's song, 'pretty little ponies' i think. finally she gave up and said 'barney doesn't want me to play this'. she proceeded to explain. 'you can't see, but just down below my pantline, on my right cheek, i've a new tattoo: "barney saved my butt". this song is on the soundtrack to the new barney film ('but not actually in the film', she snarked) 'but i wanted you to hear it first in a show that includes cussing and adult themes' i love jane. she's so cool. patrick - -----Original Message----- From: Wolfebite@aol.com [SMTP:Wolfebite@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 5:19 PM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: joni no dino (smartass reply: really njc) i thought you were going to say that joni's the only artist that hasn't done a song on barney's new albumn. the anti-purple dinosaur clause in her contract doug ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:10:05 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: John Kelly's appearance in Salzburg, Austria talk about running behind this train. this show is being previewed at dtw in nyc on tues, june 30, 8:30. i've made a reservation for 4, which would need to be guaranteed by credit card. kenn and steve, duane? eric jaimes, want to meet us at last? email me by tomorrow night and i'll take care of it on friday. it's only 10$ i don't know if he'll sing. the setup is john kelly as joni richard move as martha (yes, that one) kyle decamp as jean seberg with appearances by dennis o'connor and lucy iobst (don't know if they're going to europe) these are all pretty well known performers on the downtown scene; richard move has been hosting a performance/club night called martha at mother that has gotten a high profile. it should be a weird, fun show. patrick marian, it's great to see you back on list. - -----Original Message----- From: M.Russell@iaea.org [SMTP:M.Russell@iaea.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 4:25 AM To: joni@smoe.org Subject: John Kelly's appearance in Salzburg, Austria John Kelly will be appearing in a performance called Talk Show which will be held at the Theater Metropolis in Salzburg, Austria, on the evenings of 20-23 July at 9:00 p.m. This is a rather small venue and ticket holders can choose where they would like to sit. The cost of attending is 200 Austrian Schillings, which is slightly less than $20. To order tickets by telephone, call: 43-662-84-34-48-13-23 (outside of Austria) 0662-84-34-48-13-23 (inside of Austria) I will be attending the performance on 21st of July, and am wondering if there are any other Joni fans in Europe who might be able to meet me for the show. If so, please email me privately. Thanks! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:00:16 -0400 From: trxschwa Subject: RE: Emmylou, Lucinda (NJC) emmy lou god - we all wimps (to crib shawn...) i think her voice has always had a cracked, weatherbeaten quality that showed so much more living than most of her peers. i think of a lesser song from 'trio' called 'telling me lies'. linda r sings most of the lead with dolly and emmy lou on back up, but el takes the last solo: 'i cover my ears, i close my eyes, still hear your voice, telling me lies' and the hurt in the song hits home. big time i didn't listen to her much in the last ten years, but i'm a real fan of daniel lanois' production. it's glossy, but i sense an aesthetic, a belief that truly genuine, rough voices like emmy lou's and dylan's can be served by a solid, comforting production cushion. and i think on albums like 'wrecking ball' and 'time out of mind' he's proved right, and their trust is justified. patrick np - silence ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:11:00 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Can I call you AL? Al, may I tease you a sec? Are you really Jackson Browne in disguise? Julie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:18:33 -0400 From: Marsha Doyle Subject: Shameless Iris Plug Mark or Travis wrote: > Hi Anne! I love Iris Dement! So do I, and you all can see her with me and the other "poor Griffin" at: in the Gallery section under Degrees of Separation for me and a few folks (last photo is with Iris). This photo was requested for her website last week by the owner when he saw it on our list. Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:24:04 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Interesting thread... In a message dated 6/24/98 9:57:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, briano@interisland.net writes: << I am personally interested in the dynamic of an intelligent and strong-willed woman married to a weaker but loving/supportive man when the pair have a daughter as an only child. This child is often a spectacular specimen of humanity. >> Brian, Not attacking, just wondering- are you suggesting Joni's dad is the weaker parent of the two? These lyrics come to mind: "Papa's faith is in people, Mama, she believes in cleaning". Terry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:31:43 -0700 From: "Guy Brown" Subject: Re: Chinese Cafe - -----Original Message----- From: kbarnicle@ensr.com To: joni@smoe.org Date: Wednesday, June 24, 1998 2:04 PM Subject: JC: Chinese Cafe >....Unchained Melody part. Like, who wrote is, recorded it, etc. Jimmy Young had a big hit with it in Britain in the 50's and another excellent version can be found on a late 80's U2 single. GUY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:30:47 EDT From: Ashara@aol.com Subject: Re: More Sad Songs Mark Domyancich wrote: <> I totally agree, Mark. The first time I heard this song, I cried my eyes out. All I could think of was how shaming it would have felt for her, even at 50 years old, to have such disapproval from her mom. On one hand, being so much in love, and on the other, being shot down for it. Uh, oh! Les, does this qualify as a "me, too" post? After all, I didn't say "me, too. On the other hand, I was sort of saying "me, too", without *really* actually saying, "me, too"! :-) Hugs, Ashara {who was thinking......If I got kicked off this list for saying "me, too"....., without actually saying "me, too," I would have a clean house, bills paid, the state would give me back my children, I could go back to work, and we would have food in our refrigerator again!} ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:31:02 -0400 From: djp Subject: woodstock, second and third thoughts. First thought: I'm there. Second thoughts: This could be a horror. An open field at 3 pm in mid August, lines of the hungry grumbling at over priced nasty food... Third thoughts: I must see Joni. I want to get together with you all. The parking lot will be accessible through the day, I can pack a cooler with fried chicken and peach pie and picnic on the tailgate. And Lou Reed is a perfect complement to Joni! And I loved Richie Havens, though I haven't heard anything he's done in decades. And can we frolic naked in the mud? Huh?! Huh??!! Can we???? So, who's going? where do we meet? djp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:35:07 -0400 From: Kenny Grant Subject: Re: John Kelly's appearance in Salzburg, Austria Hey Patrick, Count me and Steve *IN* Thanks! See ya then! Oh, where is this place/how do we get there??? -Kenny trxschwa wrote: > > talk about running behind this train. > > this show is being previewed at dtw in nyc on tues, june 30, 8:30. i've made a reservation for 4, which would need to be guaranteed by credit card. > kenn and steve, duane? eric jaimes, want to meet us at last? email me by tomorrow night and i'll take care of it on friday. it's only 10$ > > i don't know if he'll sing. > > the setup is > > john kelly as joni > richard move as martha (yes, that one) > kyle decamp as jean seberg > > with appearances by dennis o'connor and lucy iobst (don't know if they're > going to europe) > > these are all pretty well known performers on the downtown scene; richard > move has been hosting a performance/club night called martha at mother that > has gotten a high profile. it should be a weird, fun show. > > patrick > > marian, it's great to see you back on list. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:44:54 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Marilyn Manson and Megadeath meet Joni? From the News section of the Ticketmaster website: [http://www.ticketmaster.com/livedaily/page2.html#story] - --- Joni Mitchell Joins Woodstock '98 Joni Mitchell is the latest in a growing list of artists scheduled to perform at Woodstock ’98 in Saugerties, New York on the weekend of August 14th to 16th, Sonic Net reports. The 1998 lineup, which is still in the planning stages, will also include performances by Stevie Nicks, Megadeth, Oasis, Marilyn Manson and country singer Shania Twain. Further details on the event will appear on Live! Daily as they become available. - --- After reading Frank T.'s article (thanks, Frank!), I had the impression that the promoters were trying to get together a show featuring legends of music. Have Marilyn Manson and Megadeath achieved that status? Or are the promoters trying to cover their financial butts in advance, hoping to draw concert-goers from all age groups and musical tastes? Of course, Ticketmaster is still referring to the event as "Woodstock 98" as well as including 8/16 as a day of performance, so just how current is their information? If Dylan fans at the recent concerts were rude during Joni's performances, one can only imagine what fans of Marilyn Manson and Megadeath might be like in a similar scenario. If indeed these bands will appear at "A Day In The Garden," hopefully they will be scheduled for Friday ... Lori in San Antonio, trying very hard to be open-minded about this and feeling closer to 40 every minute ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:50:31 EDT From: TerryM2442@aol.com Subject: Re: Joni in a small venue In a message dated 6/24/98 5:39:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Denisongs@aol.com writes: << The big question. Honestly, what would you pay for such a ticket. This is the bottom line >> My firstborn. KIDDING! Terry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:03:47 EDT From: LRFye@aol.com Subject: Re: woodstock, second and third thoughts. djp wrote: > Second thoughts: This could be a horror. With a couple of my friends now reconsidering due to worries about money and "what kind of people" might be there to see Marilyn Manson, the thought that continues to override any "second thought" in my mind is this one: JONI SINGING "WOODSTOCK" AT YASGUR'S FARM. This is probably a once-in-a-lifetime chance. I'M going!!! > And can we frolic naked in the mud? Huh?! Huh??!! Can we???? Why not? Certainly it will be hot enough in August to need to cool off! : ) > So, who's going? where do we meet? Does anyone know the area? Where is a good place to meet? Lori in San Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:32:38 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: NJC covers, including Kate Bush Patrick wrote: <<>> A version that just made it onto a mix tape I made for no one in particular. It's a mix tape of covers, which the music nerd in me adores, that range from the ridiculous to the sublime. Just for kicks, here's the track listing of the tape: Patti Smith, "Wicked Messenger" (Dylan) R.E.M., "Wall of Death" (Richard Thompson) Yo La Tengo, "Little Honda" (Beach Boys) St. Etienne, "Only Love Can Break Your Heart (Neil Young) Mary J. Blige, "Sweet Thing" (Chaka Khan) Madonna, "I Want You" (Marvin Gaye) Jai, "Cry Me a River" (Julie London/standard) Waterlillies, "I Am Woman" (Helen Reddy) Bonnie Raitt, "Burning Down the House" (Talking Heads) Dionne Farris, "Blackbird" (Beatles) Nirvana, "Where Did You Sleep Last Night (Leadbelly) Madeleine Peyroux, "Lovesick Blues" (Bessie Smith) Holly Cole, "Calling You" (Phoebe Snow) Me'Shell NdegeOcello, "Who Is He and What Is He to You" (Bill Withers) Clint Black and Pointer Sisters, "Chain of Fools" (Aretha) Maxwell, "This Woman's Work" (Kate) Aretha, "Let It Be" (Beatles) Los Lobos, "I Wan'na Be Like You (The Monkey Song)" (from _The Jungle Book_) Pet Shop Boys, "Somewhere" (from _West Side Story_) Dolly Parton, "Peace Train (remix)" (Cat Stevens) k.d. lang and Andy Bell, "No More Tears (Enough is Enough)" (Donna Summer and Barbra Streisand) This tape was a total blast to make. I need to find a music dorks listserv so I can leave y'all alone w/ this s**t. :-) - --Michael NP: Mary J. Blige, "Sweet Thing" indeed ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:02:17 -0400 From: "Eric W Taylor" Subject: Re: Moments in Time - -----Original Message----- From: TomStr@aol.com Thanx, Tom, for including me in such a timely message! ;~) E.T. « ´`*:»(¨`v´¨)«:*´`» « ´`*:»(¨`v´¨)«:*´`» « ´`*:»(¨`v´¨)«:*´`» `v´ `v´ `v´ To realize the value of one year: Ask a student who has failed a final exam. To realize the value of one month: Ask a mother who has given birth to a premature baby. To realize the value of one week: Ask an editor of a weekly newspaper. To realize the value of one hour: Ask the lovers who are waiting to meet. To realize the value of one minute: Ask the person who has missed the train, bus or plane. To realize the value of one second: Ask a person who has survived an accident. To realize the value of one millisecond: Ask the person who has won a silver medal in the Olympics. Time waits for no one. Treasure every moment you have. You will treasure it even more when you can share it with someone special. ...pass it on! ¤´¯`·.¸.·•º°º•·.¸¸.·´¯`¤¤´¯`·.¸.·•º°º•·.¸¸.·´¯`¤ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 22:11:21 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: Joni mother-shame fixation I have responded privately to some of you, and I thank you for your honesty. I have no hard feelings toward anyone, except perhaps those who trash some of the great younger female artists as rubbish-writers--and who judge them by their MTV-videos. But I certainly have no hostility toward those who hold a different opinion with respect to my Joni-mother-shame thesis, as it just hit me the other day--and I am somewhat in shock myself. Terry's post seems like a real good one to respond to publicly... > I've personally > been involved in the adoption process twice and I can say for certain that > these types of choices are usually done out of the best interests of the > child. Mothers, in general, know and want what's best for them. Choosing > adoption as an option is one hell of a brave thing to do. Surely you speak in broad general truth. I am looking for specific motivation, in Joni's case. She writes in Little Green that "she grows tired of the lies she is sending Home." So, it is clear that Mother is weighing heavily on her mind, prior to adoption, and that HOME is still "where mom is." <> > I agree with the others. Apologizing isn't what I hear; I hear being sensitive > to other people's feelings. I also hear a woman who's willing to think about > relationships in a very deep way, whether of mother/child, man/woman, etc. Absolutely. Joni is DEEPLY empathic, which may explain why she cannot shake off the visage of her mother. Perhaps she feels that her mother saved her life when she had polio. I don't know. One of the reasons I am frustrated is that I cannot relate to this kind of Carrie-movie relationship. <> > ...and aren't we all to some degree???? Joni creates art out of it. Most > artists create art as an expression of some conflict. Tell me something new. I could not have said it better myself, Terry. What I am suggesting may not be such a radical hypothesis, at all. Thank you very much. <> > Who's to say that all of these women aren't struggling with the same issue, > Al? Some are just more overt- in your face about it- while others are subtle. > The little kid on the playground who says "your mom's a shit" could easily be > working on the same issues as the kid who belts him in the mouth for saying > it. Same song different words. Excellent point. But I believe that Joni is honest, or she tries to be honest. She really wants people to know who she is. But no one is objective about "who they really are." Joni shows us a great deal, but at the same time, we know that some songs were aborted because of direct or imaginary maternal influence. So, as I said elsewhere, the only question is to what extent she is demonized by her mother's shame--real or imagined. <> > ...and this is where you and I agree. But I am really curious why you sound so > angry about Joni's relationship with her mother. If I am angry, it is because I feel that Joni is being cheated out of a full life. She is killing herself with cigarettes. She is highly prolific as an artist, but as it is with all great artists, I believe she is demonized. And the demon in this case is a visage of mom, which has convinced her that she is a fallen woman. That is why she could so easily, and with such force, fall into the role of one of the retched women at the Magdalene Laundries, a place which she had only encountered in a newspaper article, for chrissakes! Who could do that!? Yes, I am somewhat upset, as you would be, if you suddenly realized that your idol might actually be caught up in chains that she painted for someone else. It's bad enough to be stuck in the Magdalene Laundries, but to be symbolicly stuck there because of stuff that's in your own head--that's tragic. Is that Joni's tragedy? - --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:14:11 EDT From: Bmcd@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira and the Bass >Actually, she played the bass on a roland keyboard. >-Bill A keyboard, of course! This is the reason I never went out on a limb as a kid and tried to answer any of the questions the teacher asked ; ) Karen Mc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:38:28 -0400 From: "Eric W Taylor" Subject: Alanis vs. Hanson sherrie good writes: >my question remains: why is it always the new female artist that get >bashed? i have one word for you folks bashing new female artist: >HANSON. Good one, Sherrie! I've often wondered this myself. Alanis delivered a strong debut, despite what Joni said. And she sounds so fine on DMB's latest, Spoon... E.T. NP: Borderline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:05:31 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Joni mother-shame fixation I think i get what you are saying now. If Joni is in that space you describe, it is indeed sad. However, it isn't that simple to ditch such demons. Shame is quite different from guilt. Shame is about feeling bad at the core, not good enough, defective. When that shame is put there as a child by parents, it can take a life time to be rid of it, if indeed it is ever got rid of. Undealt with it can lead to constantly trying to be good, to believing that if one is good bad things won't happen and one will gain the acceptance and love of one's parents. It doesn't work of course being convinced of one's badness prevents one believing you can be good! The acceptance and approval of one's parents also nevr comes-because the problem is within them. people don't shame others unless they feel shame themselves If Joni's mother is as you describe it is because she is passing on the way she herself was taught to feel. In order to get rid of the shame one has to accept some very painful things:that bad things happen to good people, that one's parents are never going to be what you want them to be, that one has very little(if any) control over how other people feel/think about you, that those who should have protected you and loved you instead shamed you and humiliated you-not because you are bad but because they were acting out their own inner turmoil and chose to act out rather than deal with it. Along with this comes the realsiation of just how weak and powerless your were - at the mercy of those adults around you. this leads to realising just how weak and powerless you are even as an adult. this applies to us all. Despite all our ideas, our beliefs, our faith, our intellect, our money, our influence, and all the other constructs we make-we are powerless-as eacgh day passes we draw nearer and nearer to our graves. We have no control over ageing, over death, over others. we can pretend we do. we can eat right and not smoke(for a healthier life yes) but it will not give us power over anything much-we will still continue our journey to that grave. We have no idea from minute to minute whether this is our last breath. No matter how we may 'rage against the dying of the light' it is in vain. And rage is just a way of keeping us from feeling just how weak and powerless we are because to feel that is to feel terror. if Joni is indeed struggling with deep seated shame then she has done wonderfully well. Just to live with that 'cancer' is a huge achievement-to create the way she has - well-thats astonishing. colin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 02:05:58 -0400 From: "Eric W Taylor" Subject: Re: The Scary Part of Woodstock Lori wrote: >Rumor has it that Marilyn Manson and Megadeath >are playing, too ... has anyone else heard this? >If so, what a line up ... Even scarier, they want $65 per day! I'm having third thoughts about driving all day to campout in mud just to witness Joni deal with Satan herself. But, then, it might be well-worth it just to experience Our Lady of Rock put them all in their place with Slouching Toward Bethlehem & Strange Boy... If NIN signs on, I'm definately going! E.T. NP: Job's Sad Song ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #219 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?