From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #217 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, June 24 1998 Volume 03 : Number 217 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- In the closet NJC ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [M.Russell@iaea.org] re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [Robert Holliston ] John Kelly's appearance in Salzburg, Austria [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: JONI MOTHER'S DAY ["Wally Kairuz" ] (no subject) [Chilihead2@aol.com] [Fwd: Alanis et al] [Jerry Notaro ] midwest ["Cristi Mitchell"] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [catman ] Re: In the Closet njc [catman ] Re: Little Green [catman ] Re: Hejira and the Bass [Bill Dollinger ] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [Bill Dollinger ] Re: In the Closet njc ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [Mark or Travis ] More on Emmylou [Howard Motyl ] Re: Hejira, Hegira [Howard Motyl ] NJC radio madness ["Julie Z. Webb" ] Re-education [Brett Code ] Joni plays bass [Howard Wright ] Kate Bush tribute album (NJC) ["Twomey" ] Re: In the Closet njc [catman ] JONI MOTHER'S DAY [steve@psitech.com (Steve Dulson)] On/Off List Debates ["Don Rowe" ] Joni and her mom [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] PS on Joni and her mother [Mary Grace Valentinsson ] Woodstock? [steve@psitech.com (Steve Dulson)] Re: On/Off List Debates [Marsha Doyle ] Re: Tribute album... [Jason Maloney ] Re: On/Off List Debates, "Huffing" (NJC) ["Don Rowe" ] Re: NJC: Alanis as poet [sherrie.good@chronicle.com] Re: Dirty mouth feminism [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: Tribute album & personal covers ["Don Rowe" ] where are your (lustrous and pearly) greys, al? [Gellerray@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 03:36:56 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: In the closet NJC And I did like this video where Alanis is a schizo and she sings with all her other personalities while she's driving to some place, but mostly because of all the snow and because you can tell it's Canada. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:08:40 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY To Al Date: The tone of all of your posts since the first one on this topic, which presented an interesting point of view, has seemed very hostile, Al. I've never noticed you behaving like this ever before, although, being on Digest I don't always get into the details of every post. I am wondering why you seem to be responding in such a hostile way. I feel that Joni's mother has been a very strong, and mostly very positive, influence in her life, and I don't think that Joni could have developed into what she is without a lot of love, attention and strong support from her parents. I don't agree that Joni has censored all of her work in terms of how her mother would feel about reading it, though. Are you implying that we've gotten some kind of watered-down version of something else? Anyway, Joni doesn't even come clean with gossip in interviews, so why is she gonna get into any more detail in her songs? You wrote: <> This seems like a rather idiotic thing to say and if you read and to listen to taped interviews about this song, you could not even say this. Anyway, you can't take one song out of her catalogue and call it her metaphorical autobiography - I mean you are, of course, free to do that, but it's a very limited picture - like a facet of a diamond or a tiny tile in a grand mosaic. Now you can look at Joni's entire catalogue of songs as a reflection of herself and her life - as her autobiography - and you see someone who is incredibly observant, a master of metaphor, sensitive, funny, compassionate and real - somebody you'd definitely like to know. I suppose this information can be gleaned from mostly all of her individual songs - like musical DNA maybe. You have never been a mother and, just like if you've never had back trouble you don't understand the pain of someone with a bad back, you can never fully understand all of the reasons and feelings and thoughts that led up to Joni's decision to give her child up for adoption. To blame this on her relationship with her mother is a very limited view. This was a very personal decision which we can never really know about and which we really shouldn't be analyzing except to get to the bottom line which must have been that it was better for Joni and better for Kelly Dale. I am speaking from personal experience here. And I'm sure she made the right decision. Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:23:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Holliston Subject: re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY Al Date wrote: > The moral-maternal bonds are even stronger than Joni's natural bonds for her > own baby! Joni has said in interviews that she was virtually penniless when her daughter was born, and therefore unable to provide her with any security. Also, she speaks quite passionately about the moral climate in general, not *only* about her parents. > Is this fear of a binding love-commitment a precursor to her later inability > to commit to anyone for more than a couple of years? Well, she was married to Larry Klein for more than ten years. Besides, it could be a matter of preference, rather than ability; not everybody chooses the same road. > She sanitizes her work supervised by her mother's morality. OK, she seems to indicate something like this in Let the Wind Carry Me. But in her 1979 interview with Cameron Crowe (Rolling Stone), she did say that, if she censored her words, it was for her *parents*, who are very moral people, not just her mother. She has also said that, during and after her hospitalization with polio, she became very close to her mother. So, perhaps she remains so, with the inevitable differences that arise between parents and children. Perhaps she actually cares about her mother's feelings! > But considering the era in which she wrote, where physical sex and various > revolutions were popularized, it would seem a longshot that Joni would not > have stumbled into something along these lines, at least experimentally, >if it > weren't for "her mother looking over her shoulder syndrome." First of all, the "era in which she wrote" includes right now, unless she retired earlier this evening. Why does it seem a longshot to you? Joni Mitchell has NEVER been one to move with the herd. After reading many interviews with her, it strikes me that she considers herself an original more as a musician than a lyricist, so her "experimentation" has tended to occur in that particular area of her work. She's also never claimed to be a feminist, and says as much in the Cameron Crowe interview (and Joan Armatrading said the same, in more strongly worded terms - "Don't go calling me a feminist!" - in one of her interviews. Both songwriters write from their own, highly personal perspectives, as, I'll bet, do Liz Phair, Alanis Morissette, Marianne Faithfull, and other women who have chosen to use more sexually-explicit language and imagery in their work.) > Clearly, women like Liz Phair and Alanis (and how many others?) have gotten > of this syndrome at an early age, and are much less inhibited as lyricists. Sorry, I don't consider Joni Mitchell an inhibited lyricist at all. "He loves me so naughty, makes me weak in the knees" is only an early example that leaves no doubt in the listener's mind. The amazing lyrics to A Strange Boy, too. Joni once said, in another interview, that it isn't necessary to "display your asshole" any more than it is to be noble all the time (I'm paraphrasing, but these interviews are all available courtesy of Wally and Les). And she has chosen to explore the infinite variety that exists within these two extremes. > If you spend your whole life worrying "what would mommy think" you have been > cheated out of a life. The possibility does exist, Al, that she simply respects her parents. I found this statement almost funny - as if Joni Mitchell's been cheated out of a life!! Maybe she chose not to share each and every intimate detail of her techniques in bed - good for her! Every Joni song draws the listener into a complex emotional and intellectual reaction to a situation or state of being: she manages to do this with precise imagery, detailed characterization, and a synthesis of melody, harmony, and performance that is perfectly suited to each situation. So what if she doesn't want to write about blow jobs?? > Where are all the liberated women? Is this the wrong group? Maybe this is >the > women's acquiescence group. Good Grief!!! Maybe you should post a detailed definition of what a liberated woman is - while you're at it, I wouldn't mind knowing what a liberated man is supposed to be, either. Liberation surely comes when we are free - and, in a sense, also obliged - to live and speak according to our conscience. Free, in other words, of the need to conform to any Party line, be it Right or Left. This freedom properly belongs to all of us, male, female, straight, gay, teenaged, middle aged. Doris Lessing once said that we have to make up our minds about each issue that confronts us, and not worry about whether we're conforming to whatever group we're in. Heather wrote: > you don't have to use "dirty language" to be feminine. Al replied: > Perhaps. but it is a part of human sexuality. Excuuuuuuuuuse me!!! Says you and whose army??!! Are those of us who prefer "romantic" language to "dirty" language - and there are only a few four-letter words to work with, anyway - supposed to consider ourselves suppressed and/or dessicated? Kakki wrote: > Using explicit language never liberated anyone. Al replied: > Kakki, did you think about that before you wrote it? Al, did YOU think about the following before you wrote IT? > Freedom of speech came DIRECTLY from Zenger publishing the sordid truth >about > the governor of NY [well, maybe down there it did: there are other countries > in the world, you know], even though it was a crime. More recently, Lenny > Bruce and Howard Stern have made it possible for a lot of free speech to > follow--just as Liz Phair has now done for future women. Freedom of speech is a real contentious issue up here - what to do with those pesky neo-Nazis? It's interesting that you think (or at least say) that Liz Phair has made free speech possible only for women - and future ones at that. May I infer that Lenny Bruce paved the way only for men? Just asking. > The older generation has learned to keep its mouth shut too much--and >just be > polite. These are two different things! You can open your mouth and express your opinion clearly and persuasively, but what the hell is wrong with being polite? If being polite means, as I understand it does, not hurting another person's feelings unless absolutely necessary, then I'm all for it. > Magdalene Laundries is Joni's metaphorical autobiography. First of all, I'm quite satisfied with Joni's explanation as to the genesis of this song - she has always used external influences to fuel her work, though admittedly more so recently. Second, though she uses the first person in this song, she shows, to my ears at least, a heartfelt compassion for the women she is portraying. Third, since I feel that way about this song, I want to say that your implication that she's somehow using the plight of these long-dead women as a personal purgative for her own relationship with her mother is condescending and offensive. Twisted is another good word for it. Finally, Kakki wrote: > I always feel uncomfortable when anyone presumes they need to "re-educate" me > whether it be the younger generation or my parents' generation, don't you? Actually, I feel uncomfortable with the term "re-education" in the first place. I've always thought education was a continuous and life-long thing: influences may be acquired and discarded along the way. I'm not sure if I'm part of Kakki's and Al's generation or not - but as a 42-year-old, it would be educational suicide to cut myself off from either younger or older people. Just lead, though: don't push. Those are my thoughts. Roberto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:25:25 +0200 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: John Kelly's appearance in Salzburg, Austria John Kelly will be appearing in a performance called Talk Show which will be held at the Theater Metropolis in Salzburg, Austria, on the evenings of 20-23 July at 9:00 p.m. This is a rather small venue and ticket holders can choose where they would like to sit. The cost of attending is 200 Austrian Schillings, which is slightly less than $20. To order tickets by telephone, call: 43-662-84-34-48-13-23 (outside of Austria) 0662-84-34-48-13-23 (inside of Austria) I will be attending the performance on 21st of July, and am wondering if there are any other Joni fans in Europe who might be able to meet me for the show. If so, please email me privately. Thanks! Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 06:44:20 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: JONI MOTHER'S DAY "May 24 marked the birth of the three greatest moralists: Queen Victoria, Bob Dylan, and my mother." Joni Mitchell. WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:44:08 EDT From: Chilihead2@aol.com Subject: (no subject) Hi, Is anyone going into New York on Sunday for the Parade? - -Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:25:32 -0400 From: Jerry Notaro Subject: [Fwd: Alanis et al] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------8C9CC9F1403FA1C5BB2611EC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First Celine, now Alanis. How cruel! Jerry Bill Dollinger wrote: > The one song by Alanis that really bugs me is Ironic, > there is nothing ironic about finding a fly in a glass > of wine, no matter how expensive the bottle. > Instead of looking through all those forks to find one > spoon, perhaps she could have been reading some O Henry > or watching old twilight zone episodes. > > Bill - --------------8C9CC9F1403FA1C5BB2611EC Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: owner-joni@smoe.org Received: from siren.shore.net (siren.shore.net [207.244.124.5]) by bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (8.8.7/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA28030 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] by siren.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0yoa6w-0007Lr-00; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:56:14 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) with SMTP id QAA08199; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:56:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:56:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/listq-jane) id QAA08163 for joni-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:55:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cap1.CapAccess.org (bdolling@cap1.CapAccess.org [151.200.199.10]) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) with SMTP id QAA08157 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bdolling@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id QAA24350; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:53:22 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:53:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger To: Eric Jaimes cc: Don Rowe , joni@smoe.org Subject: Re: Alanis et al In-Reply-To: <199806232031.QAA24374@godzilla.darkorb.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-joni@smoe.org Reply-To: Bill Dollinger Precedence: bulk Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The one song by Alanis that really bugs me is Ironic, there is nothing ironic about finding a fly in a glass of wine, no matter how expensive the bottle. Instead of looking through all those forks to find one spoon, perhaps she could have been reading some O Henry or watching old twilight zone episodes. Bill - --------------8C9CC9F1403FA1C5BB2611EC-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:53:48 -0500 From: "Cristi Mitchell" Subject: midwest Hi- I'm just curious, is anyone else on the list living in the midwest? I live in Illinois - DeKalb to be exact. Also, is anyone from Washington state? I am going to be visiting Bellingham in September and I have a feeling that I will be moving out that way. Thanks- cristi cristi_mitchell@hmco.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:12:01 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY As for Joni not being radical, have you ever listened to Dog Eat Dog? i have always thought Joni to be radical and free thinking. I have assumed this is one reason why she is not more popular-her lyrics have to be thought about and also tear strips out of people and the hypocritical non thinking way we live. With freedom and liberation comes the abiltiy to love and accept people for who they are and what they could be. This hardly fits with believing some people, especially our children, are 'bad to the bone'. colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:11:23 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: In the Closet njc > At 12:35 AM 6/24/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Just a final note about this Alanis issue from me: it is interesting > to me > >that about eight or nine people wrote to me thanking me for defending > > >Alanis, but not one cc'd their comments to the list. I don't know who wrote this, but it does happen all the time! I have got really pissed off by it too-people writing in support off list! When the attack happened on list! Some would say it is so arguing doesn't happen on list. Personally, I think the reason is different..... colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:12:32 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: Little Green Al Date wrote: > --Al Date > > These bloodless brides of Jesus, > If they had just once glimpsed their groom > Then they'd know and they'd drop the stones > Concealed behind their rosaries. > > Now who could that be referring to? The nuns who ran the laundry. Nuns are, in their minds, brides of Christ.Having been educated by them, I know first hand about the 'stones behind their rosaries'. there was also a tv doc here a few weeks back about the Magdalene Laundries and the poor women/girls that endured time there. Much real wickedness stems from people such as these, the nuns and priests etc. colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:23:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Hejira and the Bass Actually, she played the bass on a roland keyboard. - -Bill > Joni also talks about playing bass for the first time on the forthcoming TTT. My understanding, correct me if I"m wrong one of you musicians, but she does this with her VG-8, right? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:45:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY >Just like that lame bulb, she has had a hard time blooming in any Spring. I strongly disagree with this statement. Joni can empathize with these women without it being about her life. She was never a bored housewife trapped in suburbia but she wrote hissing of summer lawns. I don't believe she was ever on the front lines in battle, but she wrote beat of black wings based on conversation with a soldier. She wrote woodstock based on hearing about it from those who were there. Magdelene Laundries was written from her heartfelt reaction to a newspaper account. Anyone who thinks that Joni had a hard time "blooming" in any spring should give another listen to you turn me on, i'm a radio. Or take another look at the cover of Clouds. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:04:55 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: Re: In the Closet njc At 02:11 PM 6/24/98 +0100, catman wrote: >I don't know who wrote this, but it does happen all the time! I have got >really pissed off by it too-people writing in support off list! When the >attack happened on list! Some would say it is so arguing doesn't happen >on list. Personally, I think the reason is different..... Colin and all, I was one of the ones who emailed Eric, but it was not because I was wimping out. I just don't see any reason----- when the list is so busy---- to post a one line sentence of agreement. I had failed to see how someone might need "support" in debating why a certain musician is special to them. I just didn't see it as that big of a deal. I know it's easier said than done, but for me, the key to survival on this jmdl internet list is not to feel that my posts are so much attacked as debated. And for those folks who are repeatedly prone to being attack-oriented in their postings----- my reaction is to chuckle to myself and say, "well, there they go again, la dee dah, la dee dah." -Julie, who prefers master-debaters vs. people who release their anger on the net. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:09:41 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY M.Russell@iaea.org wrote: > > > You have never been a mother and, just like if you've never had back > trouble you don't understand the pain of someone with a bad back, you > can never fully understand all of the reasons and feelings and thoughts > that led up to Joni's decision to give her child up for adoption. To > blame this on her relationship with her mother is a very limited view. > This was a very personal decision which we can never really know about > and which we really shouldn't be analyzing except to get to the bottom > line which must have been that it was better for Joni and better for > Kelly Dale. I am speaking from personal experience here. And I'm sure > she made the right decision. > > Marian > Vienna Amen! Thank you, Marian. You said it better than I ever could have. Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:07:06 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: More on Emmylou >From: steve@psitech.com (Steve Dulson) >Subject: NJC Emmylou >Sherrie wrote: >>Luxury Liner remains my all-time-fave Emmylou album >Mine's "Roses In The Snow", but I'm just a folky kind of guy. And mine is "Bluebird"--two standouts are "No Regrets" (isn't this a Tom Rush song?) and "Icy Blue Heart" ("She came on to him like a slow moving cold front . . ."). - -- Howard Motyl Producer, MPI Teleproductions http://www.mpimedia.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:12:37 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: Re: Hejira, Hegira From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira, Hegira >Diana Duncan wrote: ><was more of a spiritual journey than an escape. Are there any Moslems >on the list?>> > I'm not...but I always thought it was an escape, or a flight >from danger. I thought that was a powerful meaning in the context of >the album -- "westbound and rolling taking refuge in the roads..." I work with Muslims and I will ask them (again) what hejira means. When I asked them before, I was told it meant a journey. But I will clarify . . . - -- Howard Motyl Producer, MPI Teleproductions 16101 South 108th Avenue Orland Park, IL 60462 708-873-3190 708.873.3177 Fax http://www.mpimedia.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:27:45 -0500 From: "Julie Z. Webb" Subject: NJC radio madness I have to say that I am not as "up" on the new generation of musicians as so many of you on the list. People like Heather, Yarbrough, Barbearuh, Patrick, The Kingpin Bob and Rob Jordon come to mind, as folks who continue to be a source of information of what's out there. I admit it, in our VAN, I listen to a radio station format that is probably present in every American city. It's called "The River" and their market focuses on what they call "soccer moms" with minivans---for god's sake, women who were single in the 80's, but continue to gravitate toward certain types of middle of the road music of the 90's, not Hanson or The Spice Girls --- but a mix of Third Eye Blind, Marcy Playground, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, Edie Brickel, Joe Jackson, Soft Cell, Tears For Fears era music and all the "Lillith"-type women. But indeed, somehow "they" know. It's as if they found my albums from the 80's and psychically selected certain "cuts" that I loved back then. They also have a way of knowing, which songs of the 90's immediately appeal to me. I know that all of this makes me sound pathetically unsophisticated in my listening pleasure. Somehow I fit the bill of some marketing survey, and that really scares me. But when that guy from Third Eye Blind desperately sings: "How's it going to be, When you don't know me, How's it going to be, When you're sure I'm not there, How's it going to be, When there is no one there to talk to about, How it's going to be, 'Cause I don't care, How's it going to be" ...I FEEL HIS PAIN! and I sing the words out as loud as I can with as much passion as I can muster, until my children seatbuckled in the back beg me to stop! HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWS IT GONNNA BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE? Julie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:31:39 -0600 From: Brett Code Subject: Re-education When I hear the word re-educate, my skin crawls. Re-education inspired the evil perpetrated by Pol Pot in his Kampuchea killing fields. There are many reasons why we should be open both to the new ideas and to the new ways of acting, thinking and believing which younger generations create; there are no reasons - no good reasons - why we should be open to re-education. It is the antithesis of learning, growing, progressing. Oh, I am not old I'm told But as I'm not young Oh and nothing can be done Don't start My heart Is a smoking gun Oh and nothing can be done. Brett np: Impossible Dreamer Kakki wrote: > > Michael wrote: > > > Al wrote: > > > > <<>> > > > > Then Kakki wrote: > > > > <<>> > > > > Why?! > > I always feel uncomfortable when anyone presumes they need to "re-educate" me > whether it be the younger generation or my parents' generation, don't you? > > Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:36:47 +0100 (BST) From: Howard Wright Subject: Joni plays bass From: Bmcd@aol.com >Joni also talks about playing bass for the first >time on the forthcoming TTT. My understanding, correct me if I"m wrong one of >you musicians, but she does this with her VG-8, right? > >Yours in jonispirit, >Karen Mc I think Joni plays some bass on the VG-8, but most of the stuff on the new album is played on keyboards. I think she does talk about this in the KCRW interview - she also mentions that Larry plays on one (or two?) tracks. Listening to tracks like Harlem in Havana, it certainly sounds like the bass is played on keyboard. This is YET ANOTHER reason why TTT is going to be such an interesting album! Not only does Joni play multi-guitar parts (e.g Harlem), but bass and "conventional" keyboards too! (and singing, of course). More Joni for your money! Howard ******************************************************* Howard.Wright@ed.ac.uk Formula music, girly guile Genuine junk food for juveniles Up and down the dial Mercenary style - Joni Mitchell ******************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:46:38 +0100 From: "Twomey" Subject: Kate Bush tribute album (NJC) Hi all, (The changeover to smoe was done so smoothly...well done Les!) As some of you know I run a Kate Bush news website and part of my activities this year included interviewing Thomas Dunning from Chicago about the Kate Bush tribute album he was producing with various Chicago-based artists. I know that there are quite a few Kate/Joni fans out there so I thought I'd let the list know that Brown Star Records in Chicago are now taking mail orders for this CD. "I WANNA BE KATE: The Songs Of Kate Bush" will be ready to be mailed out in about 3 weeks. You can see the album cover art, ordering information and the second part of my interview with Thomas Dunning, the executive producer at the following link: http://www.clubi.ie/twomey/trib.htm Take care & sorry for the NJC, but I know that most of the JMDL are US based and it's great to see fresh, diverse talent working on such an interesting project. Sean :-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:56:10 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: In the Closet njc Julie, sweetie, I wasn't having a go at you! As i said I didn't notice who wrote that bit. I was just sort of agreeing with whoever wrote it-sometimes people write things against something to the list, to one person. The replies in support of that person go directly to the person, not via the list where the attack happened. That seems odd to me. I was not implying that you had done anything wrong. i don't think i have ever noticed you on the attack! colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:08:19 -0700 From: steve@psitech.com (Steve Dulson) Subject: JONI MOTHER'S DAY Al wrote: >Just like that lame bulb, she has had a hard time blooming >in any Spring. Oh, give me a break! Is there anyone here (besides Al) who doesn't think that Joni has "bloomed" as successfully as anyone this century? If we could all burst into flower like Joni, how beautiful the world would be! I'm not saying she doesn't have faults or hang-ups, but in overcoming them (one of the primary purposes of art, surely?) she has given us so much beauty. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:11:26 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: On/Off List Debates After my original post "Alanis and other pretenders", eric mailed me privately a very well thought-out counter-interpretation ... to which I responded in defense of my original on-list claims. Both were very wide bandwidth, which is why I kept my end off-list. Of course, if anyone is interested, I'd be happy to post the sentient points of the argument to the list ... the whole affair actually turned out to be quite civilized! To those who feel the jmdl is aggressive or mean, I suggest a brief foray onto the Richard Thompson mailing list ... those guys play for blood, not us. :-) D Rowe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:12:47 -0700 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: Joni and her mom Al Date wrote: >>Joni gives away her only child for adoption, because of the shame it will bring on her (from her mother). The moral maternal- bonds are even stronger than Joni's natural bonds for her own baby! == I have to heartedly disagree with this one. While moral maternal bonds may have been a part of it, I think that a real issue was the single mother deal. It's not easy! What the heck do you do with a baby when you are not employed or under-employed? What do you do with these tiny people who nickel and dime you to death and still need attendance at 2 AM? How do you handle a baby who no matter how well-trained, can't be left alone while you try to push forward on a career? Tougher than you can imagine. I would suspect that her perceived inability to give her baby a decent life played a far greater part in the decision than the shame it would bring on her mother. (and what about dad? Why is the exclamation for moral maternal bonds? Why not just plain old perceived morality?) >> Is this fear of a binding love-commitment a precursor to her later inability to commit to anyone for more than a couple of years? Maybe Joni is just a pain in the ass to live with! Maybe she is a woman who has always been ahead of her times and her commitment to self is stronger than a commitment to a love relationship. If she had been a man and committed to her Art or her climb up the corporate ladder, people would see less "fear of commitment" than just doing what has to be done. Lastly about her mom: I like the clues about their relationship in a couple of her songs. "Lay Down Your Arms" gives a hint of a stifled mom. ("She says she's leaving, but she don't go.). How does a child reconcile their natural assumption that they should be able to "do something" for their parent's happiness with letting go of that impossible task? In "Happiness is the Best Facelift," we see the conflict of Joni and her mother over sex as she, (IMHO), inappropriately asserting her adulthood. As a mother, I think that it's a real tough job to harden your heart and allow your children to just "be." Because at the same time you have your love for them, you have your hopes and expectations for them and, either consciously or not, there is always a bit of tangling your identity with theirs. Ouch. MG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:19:08 -0700 From: Mary Grace Valentinsson Subject: PS on Joni and her mother >>She writes many songs which go unfinished because lyrics might be offensive to mother. She sanitizes her work. She lives, artistically, in a Magdalene Laundry of her own making, supervised by her mother's morality. Arghh! Why this conclusion? What is wrong with being respectful of her mother's, (and again, what about dad?), point of view? How do you know she writes many songs that go unfinished because the lyrics might offend mom? And if so, why is that wrong? Case in point, I was raised a Catholic, but for this and that, don't really practice the religion. My children are all baptized because it meant more to my mother to have that ceremony performed than it did for me to assert my non-Catholic-hood. I didn't continue with the rest, (communion, confirmation, etc), but at least with this tiny concession on my part, my mother is no longer getting rug burn on her knees from saying novenas and praying the rosary to keep my the souls of my kids outta the afterlife chain gang known as purgatory. In all love relationships, there is give and take. Sometimes part of that give is keeping a bit of self under-expressed or not expressed at all. It is the love that keeps it from being a burden. MG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:22:59 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: Re; joan Armatrading (NJC) Doug and Mendi were talking about comparing Nina Simone to Joan Armatrading. Nothing personal, because i dig both of you, but i have to disagree. i just don't hear it. BUT!!! if you really want to hear someone who sounds so much like Joan it will blow you away, check out Sloan Wainwright. I am sure i just butchered her name. her dad is a famous singer (not familiar with him). she played at a small club here about six months ago. i knew nothing about her, but went for the adventure. i swear, if i had closed my eyes i would have thought i was hearing Joan. i think Sloan has a deeper voice. Mendi, i think you would really, really like this singer. probably Sherelle would like her too. she is on a small label, the same one that has Erin Corday. it is called (i believe) Waterbug, and is cool because the label features lots of lessser known but good new artist. i bought a Waterbug sampler CD at the Sloan show, and was amazed i liked almost evry song on it. Sherrie > her voice > reminds me of nina simone- that kind of restrained electricity. > Doug, I was thinking the same thing esp when listening to "In Your Eyes". This songs begs Nina Simone to do a rendition. I love the way Joan does it.> Mendi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:46:16 -0400 From: Marsha Doyle Subject: Debates, jmdl-style Woo! I hereby nominate Antagonistic Al as our equivalent to Howard Stern for our jmdl community. Watchin' it from the wings, Marsha ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:14:16 -0700 From: steve@psitech.com (Steve Dulson) Subject: Woodstock? Although it ain't in the cards for me to fly out for Woodstock, I *am* agog to hear who's going, what plans for jmdl gatherings/caravans are afoot, etc. etc. Who is going to buy tickets on Saturday?? ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:16:41 -0400 From: Marsha Doyle Subject: Re: On/Off List Debates Don Rowe wrote: > To those who feel the jmdl is aggressive or mean, I suggest a brief > foray onto the Richard Thompson mailing list ... those guys play for > blood, not us. :-) This is so true, Don. It is interesting to visit other scrolling-type lists, even where posters don't seem to be anonymous, because the ones I periodically observe get reduced to the kids sticking out tongues at one another on the playground (with strong language used). They also go in predictable cycles, with some folks loudly leaving in a huff (also known in cyberville as "huffing"), or being kicked off from posting and moving on to other lists to ply their wares... The "moderated" lists I visit mostly contain syrupy sweet fawning over the artist(s) with very little to offer in rich diversity of opinions expressed. Marsha "Illumination, corruption and diving, diving, diving..." JM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:25:09 +0100 From: Jason Maloney Subject: Re: Tribute album... David Packer wrote: > > Post JMDL mail to . Please update your address books. > --- start of message ---- > > Hey guys, > > A quick question... > > I've heard that a Joni Mitchell tribute album is going to be released, > with Janet Jackson singing a track on it (Beat Of Black Wings, > actually). Anyway, does anyone know when this album is being released??? > > Cheers, > David. Whoa! Does anyone agree with me that the idea of Janet doing Beat Of Black Wings is just totally "WRONG"???? Now, I've actually liked a lot of Janet's music down the years (particularly the 80s stuff), but - however much of a "fan" she is of Joni's music - to cover that song is a bad idea. The lyrics are a personal account of an event in Joni's life, and the main thrust of the song (and its strength) lies within this. Am I being too touchy? Jason > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:29:42 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: On/Off List Debates, "Huffing" (NJC) Marsha writes r.e. behavior on other lists -- some folks loudly leaving in a huff (also known in cyberville as "huffing") Interesting, I suppose that shortly after this happens, you'll find these same folks concentrating spray paint fumes in paper bags and inhaling them deeply, known also as "huffing", though I imagine the cyber-variety has less far-reaching consequences! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:31:07 -0500 From: sherrie.good@chronicle.com Subject: Re: NJC: Alanis as poet i have not been reading the posts about Alanis because i don't have time to read everything, and sometimes delete the NJC. but let me throw in a yes vote. she is fine. if you don't like her, don't buy her CD! when a song comes on the radio i don't like, i flip over to a different station. putting her down is not necessary. she is young. i say, give them a chance. Jewel, Fiona, Alanis. i like them all. my question remains: why is it always the new female artist that get bashed? i have one word for you folks bashing new female artist: HANSON. sherrie who loves that song by Pearl Jam that goes: "can't find a better man..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:51:23 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: Dirty mouth feminism am i alone here? is there ANYTHING more obnoxious than someone who thinks himself an intellectual (not to mention a radical feminist) pointing out the truth for the rest of us dodobirds? just keep on talking al. you reveal yourself with every word. i don't mean to be rude, but i have so little patience with pretense...sorry. just the way i see it... - ric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:51:23 PDT From: "Don Rowe" Subject: Re: Tribute album & personal covers Jason writes ... >Whoa! Does anyone agree with me that the idea of Janet doing Beat Of >Black Wings is just totally "WRONG"???? > >The lyrics are a personal account of an event in Joni's life, and the >main thrust of the song (and its strength) lies within this. Am I >being too touchy? > My main objection to this would be that I have serious doubts about Janet's voice being able to cover the dynamic range of the song. I'd much rather hear Sean Colvin or Mary Chapin-Carpenter take a crack at it from that standpoint. If in fact, BOBW is a story personal to Joni (I'll admit to not knowing the details), that may not bother me as much. I mean, think about all the horrendous covers of James Taylor's "Fire and Rain", which is a true story about the death of the woman he loved in a plane crash ... I'm sure the list will have numerous other examples, but if one artist can objectify an experience, no matter how painful, another artist's interest can serve to validate and affirm the experience. The end result is that many other listeners, who might never have heard a song, now will -- and can appreciate it. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:55:58 EDT From: Gellerray@aol.com Subject: where are your (lustrous and pearly) greys, al? you know Al, i was gonna do that thing where you guys pull out (select, copy, paste?) little snippets of mails and then respond bit by bit to them, but then i thought, as well as being tedious and beyond my ken, why bother, since i could and should just respond in toto to your post. Al, i think your analysis is hole-y and ham-fisted, though i suppose, to be positive one could say that it is provocative...and vociferous. but for me (and i am not one of those "joni as sacred cow types") joni's entire aesthetic is just not built upon what have become traditional forms of outcry--your "revolution," with all it's bloodshed, and absolutism and overcompensation. but to paint the joan as someone stuck behind her mother's mores and tied to her apron strings--hmm, i don't really see it that way at all. and not emboldened enough for true, radical feminism--she is on record several times (it seems to me) as saying she doesn't really like organized feminism because it is "too apartheid" for her, which is something worth thinking about as an idea unto itself, and, more to the point here, when dropping blankets over an obviously (the "dick cavett overrides woodstock decision" notwithstanding) assertive woman. again, i don't want to get all "how can you say something like that about my joni"--our joni--just plain joni--but it just doesn't strike me as very accurate, your reading... i might go on and on but i am rather exhausted (collective sigh of relief). i will add these couple things though, which have sprung to mind: Coyote's in the coffee shop he's starin a hole in his scrambled eggs he picks up my scent on his fingers while he's watchin the waitresses legs.... or as we center behind the eight ball as we rock between the sheets as we siphon the colored language off the farms and the streets (and you know there may be more!) those lines (including the one in the parentheses) are both pretty up front about a gal with an active and enjoyable sex life (o i cringe dissecting this poor woman this way--as if i know her! as if it were appropriate, as if your analysis even merits this!) and yet they have a certain finesse that is, well, very joni (but i wouldn't say repressed). i wrote a reply to myarborough--the guy who wrote those fabu posts on tibetan freedom concerts and also something about liz phair and "punk"--where i put forth my own positivity strains on the generational evolution that naturally comes about, if for no other reason than change is...inevitable. fresh and good (sometimes, often), natural, organic-- it keeps us all awake and alert and alive, so please don't think me some old prude...but that joni has a voice and a sensibilty which causes her to cast her sexcapades in language other than those descended from her, those she in large part paved the way for, does not seem to me to suggest that she is stuck inside some Irish convent of the mind. it seems more related to, yes, era (when her ideas were shaped and even where--"we Canadians are a bit more nosegay and old fashioned...") and aesthetic. Some kind of delicacy of mind and even in some ways--despite anger--a respect and deference for what has come before her while not really agreeing with the harsher, more repressive and/or abusive aspects of it. (This is not to suggest that she hasn't herself changed with the times, obviously). Does Joni speak proud when she disagrees with something? uh, yes, i would say so. When she is addressing her mother--someone she loves and respects in spite of profound differences, is she perhaps trying to be gentle and diplomatic (i lack a better word) and perhaps create a discussion rather than a harangue? (A sure fire way to alienate a listener, and again, maybe she doesn't really want to talk that way to her mom or in her poetry much at all). Maybe. And Al, maybe you should take a lesson, rather than paint such bleak and crude pictures in too-stark black and white. And by the by Al, I do think it's insulting to say that she gave up her baby because of her mother's disapproval--though I'm sure it bore down heavily on her, as she has said. If she had money--and a stable living situation--she may very well have kept that child. i am raymond and i wish i wrote better (myself) and i hope i haven't created my own harangue, but jeez, what is up with you? ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #217 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?