From: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com (JMDL Digest) To: joni-digest@smoe.org Subject: JMDL Digest V3 #215 Reply-To: Sender: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Errors-To: owner-joni-digest@jmdl.com Precedence: bulk JMDL Digest Wednesday, June 24 1998 Volume 03 : Number 215 IMPORTANT - The JMDL has moved! Post all messages to from this point on. Update your address books! ------- The Official 1998 Joni Mitchell Internet Community Shirts are available now. Go to http://www.jmdl.com/ for all the details. ------- The New England Labor Day Weekend JoniFest is coming soon! Send a blank message to for all the details. ------- Trivia buffs! We are compiling an in-depth trivia database on all things Joni. Send your bit of trivia - or your questions you would like answered - to ------- And don't forget about JoniFest 1999! Reserve your spot with a $25 fee. Only 100 rooms have been reserved. Send a blank message to for more info. ------- The Joni Mitchell Homepage is maintained by Wally Breese at and contains the latest news, a detailed bio, Joni's paintings, original essays, lyrics and much more. ------- The JMDL website can be found at and contains Joni-related interviews, articles, member gallery, info on the archives, and much more. ========== TOPICS and authors in this Digest: -------- Jaco Pastorius ["Eric Jaimes" ] Re: Alanis et al [Bill Dollinger ] RE: Jaco's bass on Hejira & DJRD [Howard Motyl ] Tape Tree ["John Villasana" ] Re: Tape Tree [Phyliss Ward ] JONI MOTHER'S DAY [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [catman ] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [catman ] NJC Emmylou [steve@psitech.com (Steve Dulson)] Joan Armatrading [The Yarn Kollection ] Re: Lost Verse of MATW [kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant)] Dirty mouth feminism [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] Re- joni throw pillows & ot [Jim Ochsenreiter ] Re: Lost Verse of MATW [Phyliss Ward ] Pumping (NJC) ["Mark Domyancich" ] Re: The latest [Thomas Ross ] Re: Lost Verse of MATW [Mark or Travis ] RE: Pumping (NJC) ["Wally Kairuz" ] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [Mark or Travis ] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [IVPAUL42@aol.com] Re: Dirty mouth feminism ["Kakki" ] Re: Lost Verse conversation [Denisongs@aol.com] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY ["Kakki" ] RE: NJC Dirty mouth feminism [Michael Yarbrough ] Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY [RickieLee1@aol.com] Re: Lost Verse conversation revised [Denisongs@aol.com] NJC: Alanis as poet ["Jim L'Hommedieu" ] Re: Alanis and other pretenders [Marilune@aol.com] Re: Hejira, Hegira [Bolvangar@aol.com] Re: Dirty mouth feminism [Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:56:55 -0400 From: "Eric Jaimes" Subject: Jaco Pastorius Kay wrote, "-- to me Jaco's bass is integral to Hejira, and to DJRD as well. It's haunting and huge and resonant... I think that it works so well on these albums because the enormity of the sound seems to describe a landscape, and so much of these 2 albums is related to place and motion. I think of the covers of both albums... it's like Jaco's playing is right on the horizon line, the thing that joins the earth and sky, the thing that joins the head and heart of Joni's music at this time. I can't imagine these songs working without Jaco. Just my opinion." Amen, Kay. DJRD in particular would not be the same record without Jaco, whose contributions to any of Joni's work cannot be overestimated. How anyone could say otherwise eludes me, and makes me wonder. I don't know what advice to offer, it's like someone complaining about a sunset because there are birds on the horizon. Watch the birds, sweetheart, see where they take you..... Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:53:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Dollinger Subject: Re: Alanis et al The one song by Alanis that really bugs me is Ironic, there is nothing ironic about finding a fly in a glass of wine, no matter how expensive the bottle. Instead of looking through all those forks to find one spoon, perhaps she could have been reading some O Henry or watching old twilight zone episodes. Bill ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:19:59 -0500 From: Howard Motyl Subject: RE: Jaco's bass on Hejira & DJRD From: "Kay Ashley" Subject: Jaco's bass on Hejira & DJRD I've been slow to catch up on digests and slow to catch on to the new address... anyway, I remember reading that someone didn't care for Jaco's playing on Joni's records... I find this interesting -- to me Jaco's bass is integral to Hejira, and to DJRD as well. It's haunting and huge and resonant... I think that it works so well on these albums because the enormity of the sound seems to describe a landscape, and so much of these 2 albums is related to place and motion. I think of the covers of both albums... it's like Jaco's playing is right on the horizon line, the thing that joins the earth and sky, the thing that joins the head and heart of Joni's music at this time. I can't imagine these songs working without Jaco. Just my opinion. - ------and I agree with you completely, Kay. It is as if Joni found someone who was smacked in the head by the same muse--especially on that album. His bass and her words and both of their feelings are intertwined like tapestry. Beautiful stuff . . . - -- Howard Motyl Producer, MPI Teleproductions 16101 South 108th Avenue Orland Park, IL 60462 708-873-3190 708.873.3177 Fax http://www.mpimedia.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:38:27 -0500 From: "John Villasana" Subject: Tape Tree What exactly is a tape tree? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:51:30 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Tape Tree Hi John There is a complete explanation accessible through the JMDL Home Page. Check it out there. John Villasana wrote: > What exactly is a tape tree? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:54:24 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: JONI MOTHER'S DAY All you mothers out there... I think it is very instructive if we look at the influence that Joni Mitchell's dear mother has had on Our Hero in her adult life-- even though she hasn't lived at home since 1964. Joni gives away her only child for adoption, because of the shame it will bring on her (from her mother). The moral maternal- bonds are even stronger than Joni's natural bonds for her own baby! Is this fear of a binding love-commitment a precursor to her later inability to commit to anyone for more than a couple of years? She writes many songs which go unfinished because lyrics might be offensive to mother. She sanitizes her work. She lives, artistically, in a Magdalene Laundry of her own making, supervised by her mother's morality. As she approaches age 50, she endures still more guilt-mongering, which she counters with "Facelift." As if she needs to apologize to her mother FOR HER WHOLE FUCKING LIFE! This is really sick shit. It seems that Joni Mitchell has lived her entire life haunted by the visage of her mother looking over her shoulder. In spite of this, or perhaps because of it, she has been a highly prolific artist. She has explored her own emotions and musical talent more completely than is "reasonable." But the visage of JONIMOTHER lurks there, in her works, as there is almost NOTHING which is sexually explicit or politically/genderally revolutionary. Now it could be said that Joni is simply "more comfortable" writing around the subject of physical sex, and that she simply never was much of a revolutionary, even when she "lived amongst them." But considering the era in which she wrote, where physical sex and various revolutions were popularized, it would seem a longshot that Joni would not have stumbled into something along these lines, at least experimentally, if it weren't for "her mother looking over her shoulder syndrome." At least, that's the way I see it. She experimented with everything else. Clearly, women like Liz Phair and Alanis (and how many others?) have gotten out of this syndrome at an early age, and are much less inhibited as lyricists. In my not so humble opinion, mothers should do their good work, and raise their children, and then REALLY LET THEM GO-- without expectations. And that applies to male mothers too. If you spend your whole life worrying "what would mommy think" you have been cheated out of a life. - --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:00:47 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY I thought Joni was married to Chuck when she gave up the her child? I also thought she did so because of her lifestyle and poverty. I can say for sure that finally getting your parents out of your head and living according to your own beat is FREEDOM! colin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:12:49 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY > > I thought Joni was married to Chuck when she gave up the her child? I > also thought she did so because of her lifestyle and poverty. Nope, she was an unwed mother, and the father was an art student, pre-Chuck. As far as lifestyle and poverty, anyone can use that excuse-- but very few of us would actually give up that baby once we held it. I do not judge Joni harshly for this, because she was doing exactly what her mother would've expected. > I can say for sure that finally getting your parents out of your head > and living according to your own beat is FREEDOM! Right on. - --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:20:12 +0100 From: catman Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY Al Date wrote: > > > > I thought Joni was married to Chuck when she gave up the her child? > I > > also thought she did so because of her lifestyle and poverty. > > Nope, she was an unwed mother, and the father was an art student, > pre-Chuck. Yeah-i knew that Chuck wasn't daddy. > > > As far as lifestyle and poverty, anyone can use that excuse-- > but very few of us would actually give up that baby once we held it. I think some people who give up their child are doing a wonderful and brave thing-if they are doing it cos it is best for the baby.Some who don't give their children away-like mine-certainly should have! colin > > > I do not judge Joni harshly for this, because she was doing > exactly what her mother would've expected. > > > I can say for sure that finally getting your parents out of your > head > > and living according to your own beat is FREEDOM! > > Right on. > > --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:43:06 -0700 From: steve@psitech.com (Steve Dulson) Subject: NJC Emmylou Sherrie wrote: >Luxury Liner remains my all-time-fave Emmylou album Mine's "Roses In The Snow", but I'm just a folky kind of guy. ############################################################## Steve Dulson Costa Mesa CA steve@psitech.com "The Tinker's Own" http://members.aol.com/tinkersown/home.html "Southern California Dulcimer Heritage" http://members.aol.com/scdulcimer/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:02:31 -0400 From: The Yarn Kollection Subject: Joan Armatrading > her voice > reminds me of nina simone- that kind of restrained electricity. > Doug, I was thinking the same thing esp when listening to "In Your Eyes". This songs begs Nina Simone to do a rendition. I love the way Joan does it. But often when listening, with eyes closed, I can see Nina causing this song to shoot out rivets of emotions. The kind that makes you tingle all over. Taking a solo on the piano for about a good min and just flowing. Then nailing it down with a voice that (for me) commands you to listen. This is the kind of song and styling that I would love to hear Nina do more of. Mendi NP: Nina S. - Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues (The Essential N.S.) - -- "Don't listen to the din rising behind you. Look at life like a train wreck and one finds you. Light a match and your fear of fire will burn you down." P.L. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 98 23:50:26 GMT From: kg@ibm.net (Kenny Grant) Subject: Re: Lost Verse of MATW Hi Mark, This first verse *is* on WTRF, but for some reason (maybe time constraints?) it's *missing* from the live 90s performances found on the tape trees (Just Ice and The Gene Autry show), where she starts the song with the second verse: "Betsy's blue, she says, tell me something good..." FYI, at the Vancouver show on 5/14 she did sing the WHOLE song... -Kenny "Mark Domyancich" wrote: > > > Hi everyone! > > It takes cheerful resignation > Heart and humility > That's all it takes > A cheerful person told me > Nobody's harder on me than me > How could they be > And, nobody's harder on you than you > > Is this verse from Moon at the Window sung on > WTRF? I've only heard this song on the tape trees > and what sounds like a studio recorded version > with guitar. Was this song originally on the > guitar? And why haven't I heard Joni sing this in > the tape trees? > _________________________________________ > Mark Domyancich > Harpua@revealed.net > "Shadows have the saddest things to say." > _________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:58:05 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: Dirty mouth feminism >I love you all but I'm starting to find it a bit interesting that mostly men >here have spoken for and defined the "new" female sexuality and what they think >Liz stands for, etc., with very little comment from the women here. Women, >dare you comment? ;-) I could, I guess, but..... Kak got your tongue? :) Where are all the liberated women? Is this the wrong group? Maybe this is the women's acquiescence group. >>If you feel uncomfortable because you can't relate to >>these foul-mouth girls, consider that they may just be >>picking up where you sixties-women left off when you put >>your bras back on. [figuratively speaking] >No again - I hate wearing a bra, even though it is flattering to the figure. >Hey!? Didn't a man invent the bra? And high heels for that matter? Hello, Heather. I used the term "figuratively," not literally. [ Of course, with respect to bras, the figure is the literal. ha ha] And bras do have some practical use with respect to sagging. I was using bra-burning as a metaphor of the female liberation of the sixties. High heel shoes will fuck up your back, your ankles and your feet. If you CHOOSE to wear them, how is any male-oppression involved? What does it matter the gender of who invented something, once everyone is free to take it or leave it with their own CHOICE? >>The "eruption" of female sexually explicit lyrics >>is an indication of the incompleteness >>of female liberation. Until women (and esp women >>artists) can say *anything* that a male (artist) could say; there is a >>de facto double-standard in effect which some upstart will eventually >>rise up to challenge. >Eruption? Don't males erupt? ;-) I've always said what I've wanted to say >(I think). You see, when some women use "dirty language" it turns men on >and can sometimes lead to dangerous situations. We were talking about art, Heather. How does a woman artist using dirty language create a dangerous situation? This is really on the borderline of being anti-free speech bullshit. >Professionally, I prefer not to use "dirty language". Well, that is completely understandable, unless you are an artist or a sex-worker. I also have very little professional use for dirty langauge. >Al, I think you kind of said it yourself here ... you don't have to use >"dirty language" to be feminine. Perhaps, but it is a part of human sexuality. Is it possible to be feminine without being sexual? >So, Liz Phair comes along and threatens the comfort of a lot of women, >in the same way that Joni threatens her mother's "comfort" when she >shacks up downtown with her latest boyfriend. > ummmm ... who cares? Apparently Joni cared enough to write a song about it. >>It is now in the process of liberating women from the >>oppressive moral expectations of THEIR OWN MOTHERS. >>Alanis and Liz Phair dare to go where not even Joni Mitchell >>dared. >And so we evolve .... >I agree with Julie's post ... unless you are a mother, you'll never know... >OK now ... I think this is the most I've ever written back in a post. I >have my shields up now! Fire away! A man doesnt have to fire away to be masculine. :) No doubt being a mother changes everything. Being a father sure changed me in a hurry. That's why liberation always takes many generations...because no sooner do you get on a roll, but you or your wife gets pregnant, and you become pillars of the status quo. Hey that almost rhymes. And so we have to look to the next generation to re-educate us. - --Al Date ------------------------------ Date: 23 Jun 98 17:42:30 -0800 From: Jim Ochsenreiter Subject: Re- joni throw pillows & ot Ralph Lauren and Martha Stewart, beware! Loved your tips, Dougie, on a joni-centered decorating philosphy. The list of colors was inspired and I am glad i could contribute by buying the wrong size t-shirt. There are no mistakes in this universe.... well, there must be a few. No longer lurking. Jim Ochsenreiter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:45:36 -0700 From: Phyliss Ward Subject: Re: Lost Verse of MATW Kenny Grant wrote: > FYI, at the Vancouver show on 5/14 she did sing the WHOLE song... And also at the taping in L.A. Phyliss ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:00:04 -0500 From: "Mark Domyancich" Subject: Pumping (NJC) Hey everyone- I saw this on a BBS tonight. Not for the faint of heart! Japan Times-April 16, 1997 "The government must crack down on this disgusting craze of "Pumping", a spokesman for the Nakhon Ratchasima hospital told reporters. "If this perversion catches on, it will destroy the cream of Thailand's manhood." He was speaking after the remains of 13 year-old Charnchai Puanmuangpak had been rushed into the hospital's emergency room. "Most 'Pumpers' use a standard bicycle pump," he explained, "inserting the nozzle far up their rectum, giving themselves a rush of air, creating a momentary high. This act is a sin against God." Charnchai took it further still. He started using a two-cylinder foot pump, but even that wasn't exciting enough for him, and he boasted to friends that he was going to try the compressed air hose at a nearby gasoline station. They dared him to do it so, under cover of darkness, he snuck in. Not realizing how powerful the machine was, he inserted the tube deep into his rectum, and placed a coin in the slot. As a result, he died virtually instantly, but passers-by are still in shock. One woman thought she was watching a twilight fireworks display, and started clapping. "We still haven't located all of him.", say the police authorities. "When that quantity of air interacted with the gas in his system, he nearly exploded. It was like a bomb went off or something." "Pumping is the devil's pastime, and we must all say no to Satan, "Ratchasima concluded. "Inflate your tires by all means, but then hide your bicycle pump where it cannot tempt you." _________________________________________ Mark Domyancich Harpua@revealed.net "Shadows have the saddest things to say." _________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:07:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Thomas Ross Subject: Re: The latest great: the good vibes are working! TR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:11:12 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: Lost Verse of MATW Kenny Grant wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > This first verse *is* on WTRF, but for some reason (maybe time constraints?) > it's *missing* from the live 90s performances found on the tape trees (Just Ice > and The Gene Autry show), where she starts the song with the second verse: > "Betsy's blue, she says, tell me something good..." > > FYI, at the Vancouver show on 5/14 she did sing the WHOLE song... > > -Kenny She also sang the whole song at the Gorge, both nights Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:14:28 -0300 From: "Wally Kairuz" Subject: RE: Pumping (NJC) "Most 'Pumpers' use a >standard bicycle pump," he >explained, "inserting the nozzle far up their >rectum, giving themselves a rush of air, creating >a momentary high. like you can od on your own farts now? far out, man! WallyK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:15:20 -0700 From: Mark or Travis Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY Al Date wrote: > > All you mothers out there... > > I think it is very instructive if we look at the influence that > Joni Mitchell's dear mother has had on Our Hero in her adult life-- > even though she hasn't lived at home since 1964. > > Joni gives away her only child for adoption, because of the shame > it will bring on her (from her mother). The moral maternal- > bonds are even stronger than Joni's natural bonds for her own > baby! How nice of you to psychoanalyze Joni for us, Al. How long has she been in therapy with you that you have all this wonderful insight into her motivations? Mark in Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:39:06 EDT From: IVPAUL42@aol.com Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY In a message dated 98-06-23 18:14:43 EDT, Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM writes: << > I thought Joni was married to Chuck when she gave up the her child? I > also thought she did so because of her lifestyle and poverty. Nope, she was an unwed mother, and the father was an art student, pre-Chuck. >> AL, You are only partly correct, but mostly wrong. According to what we've read on the JMHP, the father was an art student pre- Chuck, but then she married Chuck as part of a futile effort to raise the child. So she did give up the child for adoption while she was married to Chuck. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:36:43 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: Dirty mouth feminism Al wrote: > Kak got your tongue? :) No, it's just that reams could be written, you know? It just struck me throughout the thread that so many of the males here seemed to be speaking for what is, ultimately, a female experience. Maybe Liz is actually parodying the male fantasy of the hot, wanton woman, a little. Using explicit language never liberated anyone. If you feel you have to prove you are liberated, then you're not. > Where are all the liberated women? All here. > Is this the wrong group? Maybe this is the women's acquiescence > group. This group?!? LOL! > We were talking about art, Heather. How does a woman artist using dirty > language create a dangerous situation? She doesn't create the dangerous situation. A young, impressionable girl thinking it's hip and cool to use it might find herself in a dangerous situation. Regardless of liberation rhetoric, sexual assault is still not a desired experience amongst women of any age. > This is really on the > borderline of being anti-free speech bullshit. I thought it was the protective maternal point of view being stated. > Perhaps, but it is a part of human sexuality. Is it possible to > be feminine without being sexual? No (assuming the subject is still breathing). > That's why liberation always takes many generations...because > no sooner do you get on a roll, but you or your wife gets > pregnant, and you become pillars of the status quo. Hey > that almost rhymes. There's nothing new under the sun and the moon and the stars. > And so we have to look to the next generation to re-educate us. Now *that's* a thought that really makes me feel uncomfortable!!!! Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:30:22 EDT From: Denisongs@aol.com Subject: Re: Lost Verse conversation All this lost verse talk reminded me of this: A friend used to have a book of songs that included some of Joni's. It is very old and I don't remember the name of it, but I do remember that it included an extra verse of "Converstion". I don't think it adds to the song, and she was probably right to edit it out, but it went like this: He's acted down all evening Maybe it's over now Maybe she's finally leaving I'd like to show her how But maybe if a dozen days are warm and bright I'll hear him say I've wanted you For such a long time FYI ......Denise : ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:56:00 -0700 From: "Kakki" Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY > AL, > You are only partly correct, but mostly wrong. > According to what we've read on the JMHP, the father was an art student pre- > Chuck, but then she married Chuck as part of a futile effort to raise the > child. So she did give up the child for adoption while she was married to > Chuck. Paul is correct. There's some info in the articles on the sites but I've also noticed that Joni seems to get real reticent and upset when asked for details about this phase in her life. It must have been very traumatic for her. She has spoken about how society at that time treated unwed mothers and has inferred that she may have been treated rather brutally herself. I think that she wanted a better situation for her child than what she could give her at the time. The marriage to Chuck was one of convenience and not ultimately a happy pairing. Her parents did not know about her experience until a number of years later. Her mother said that had they known, they would have completely supported her in raising the child. Kakki ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:47:19 -0400 From: Michael Yarbrough Subject: RE: NJC Dirty mouth feminism Al wrote: <<>> Then Kakki wrote: <<>> Why?! - --Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:49:23 EDT From: RickieLee1@aol.com Subject: Re: JONI MOTHER'S DAY are we to take this post seriously? sounds like YOU have some issues with YOUR mum there al. save your dimestore analysis of joni and apply it to yourself! gawd!! ric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:19:28 EDT From: Denisongs@aol.com Subject: Re: Lost Verse conversation revised In a message dated 98-06-23 21:50:47 EDT, you write: << He's acted down all evening Maybe it's over now Maybe she's finally leaving I'd like to show her how But friends are friends forever (Too hard to change the mold) Laugh with him cry together Hey friend it feels so whole But maybe if a dozen days are warm and bright I'll hear him say I've wanted you For such a long time >> I was almost asleep when I realized I forgot 4 lines Here they are. The one in parantheses I am not sure is correct. Goodnight........Denise : ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:36:31 -0400 From: "Jim L'Hommedieu" Subject: NJC: Alanis as poet Alanis has a perfectly valid set of lyrics on that first album. People who have cable have a hard time taking her seriously. I suspect that her videos paint her as a victim but.... since I don't have cable, I haven't been sullied by her videos. As for victimization, even the finest lyricists turn in stuff like this: "Someone's got it in for me. They're planting stories in the press. Who ever it is I hope they cut it out quick. When they will I can only guess. They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy. She inhereted a million bucks and when she died, it came to me. I can't help it...... if I'm lucky." Yes, that was from Hootie and the Blowfish..... NOT! BTW, on the thread about colors: the dark black ladder & red water in the bathroom sink & fever in the scum brown bowl - -- All the best, Jim L'Hommedieu ** Get well Wally! ** np: The air conditioner and dehumidifier in perfect 60Hz. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:20:15 EDT From: Marilune@aol.com Subject: Re: Alanis and other pretenders In a message dated 6/23/98 6:57:37 AM, dgrowe@hotmail.com wrote: >Oh brother! To even mention the whiny, pop-culture pseudo-victimization >that Alanis embodies and the SIQUOMB in the same breath has got to be >some sort of crime. Or a sin at least. Does anybody else get sick to >death of these little-black-dress, jagged- little-pill wannabes passing >out lyrical blame like campaign promises and accepting no personal >responsibility? exactly. I've always hated Alanis. Her voice is whiny and her songs are terrible, even if she doesn't right them. I never understood the "angry chick" thing that was going on. screw that. i've never enjoyed her. she's just another peon to pop banality. Alanis should take an acid bath. mariana ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:39:00 EDT From: Bolvangar@aol.com Subject: Re: Hejira, Hegira Diana Duncan wrote: <> I'm not...but I always thought it was an escape, or a flight from danger. I thought that was a powerful meaning in the context of the album -- "westbound and rolling taking refuge in the roads..." - --David NP: The Police, Synchronicity ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 20:49:57 -0700 From: Al.Date@Eng.Sun.COM (Al Date) Subject: Re: Dirty mouth feminism > It just struck me > throughout the thread that so many of the males here seemed to be speaking for > what is, ultimately, a female experience. And, if we are to believe Ms Phair, she seems to be saying that women have very similar sex drives and fantasies as men--but that in the past women were expected to just bottle it up. It is very life-affirming for hetero-men to find out that they are not hopelessly alone in their lust. > Maybe Liz is actually parodying the > male fantasy of the hot, wanton woman, a little. Using explicit language never > liberated anyone. Kakki, did you think about that before you wrote it? Freedom of speech came DIRECTLY from Zenger publishing the sordid truth about the governor of NY, even though it was a crime. More recently, Lenny Bruce and Howard Stern have made it possible for a lot of free speech to follow-- just as Liz Phair has now done for future women. Somebody has to push the limits, or else the right-wing moralists will just swoop on in and ban everything. > If you feel you have to prove you are liberated, then you're not. OK. But whether you have to prove it or not is secondary. What is of primary concern is that if you are *not* liberated, you only have so much time to take care of business-- before you sell yourself out, focus on your mutual funds, and start to bemoan the foul-mouth, uncouth next generation. > > Where are all the liberated women? > > All here. I wonder. I am beginning to feel that I am the most radical feminist on the list, and I am a man! Let me tell you that is a straaaaaange feeling. > > Is this the wrong group? Maybe this is the women's acquiescence > > group. > > This group?!? LOL! Well, Joni is no radical, so maybe I am barking up the wrong tree. Maybe everyone else who was a sixties radical has become a Republican. Personally, my hatred for Richard Nixon has not waned--it has even grown with such historical revelation as the use of nerve gas on presumed American deserters in Laos--so I cannot become a Republican. Of course, the current president is remarkably similar to Nixon, so I won't be a Democrat either. I will fight like a pit bull for free speech, freedom from religion, against the drug war, and against petty hypocrisy (with somewhat less bite). > > We were talking about art, Heather. How does a woman artist using dirty > > language create a dangerous situation? > > She doesn't create the dangerous situation. A young, impressionable girl > thinking it's hip and cool to use it might find herself in a dangerous > situation. Regardless of liberation rhetoric, sexual assault is still not a > desired experience amongst women of any age. I am quite familiar with rape. The solution is not to inhibit speech, but to allow open sex-work. > > This is really on the > > borderline of being anti-free speech bullshit. > > I thought it was the protective maternal point of view being stated. Well, we didn't hear from Liz Phair's mother, so I must assume that my original impression was correct. > > Perhaps, but it is a part of human sexuality. Is it possible to > > be feminine without being sexual? > > No (assuming the subject is still breathing). With Viagra, he may not. :) > > That's why liberation always takes many generations...because > > no sooner do you get on a roll, but you or your wife gets > > pregnant, and you become pillars of the status quo. Hey > > that almost rhymes. > > There's nothing new under the sun and the moon and the stars. > > > And so we have to look to the next generation to re-educate us. > > Now *that's* a thought that really makes me feel uncomfortable!!!! Too soon old, too late smart. What I like about the younger generation is that they seem to be less inhibited. They tell it like it is, even if they don't have much substantive to say. The older generation has learned to keep its mouth shut too much--and just to be polite. - --Al Date ------------------------------ End of JMDL Digest V3 #215 ************************** Post messages to the list at Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe joni-digest" to ------- Siquomb, isn't she?