From: owner-jewel-digest To: jewel-digest@smoe.org Subject: jewel-digest V1 #628 Reply-To: jewel@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-jewel-digest Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "jewel-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. jewel-digest Friday, 27 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 628 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: NJC: Doubles of e-mails the NJC debate::My only comment. Re: slightlyJC: Hockey Re: Bootleg CD Re: Bootleg CD Jewel on Access Hollywood pam and tmbg Re: the NJC debate::My only comment. Jewel on VH1 somewhere besides Crossroads NJC: Re: Bootleg CD NJC: royalties/costs of CDs Re: Boston Jewel show NJC: Nuts & WWSYS TAB Re: slightlyJC: Hockey Re: NJC: royalties/costs of CDs NJC: Bootlegs/Official live releases BOOTLEG CD Re: NJC: Another Jewel Look-a-Like ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kulisu@arn.net (Chris Pavek) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:33:17 -0500 Subject: Re: NJC: Doubles of e-mails >This is kinda silly, but it does bother me. When you reply or followup >someone's post AND you send it to the list, shouldn't we all remove >the persons address from the post your following? I've noticed it, too. And in light of the recent NJC/JC battle, I instead replied only to the senders and not to the list to cut down on the NJC (which was kinda old anway). l8r Chris "Sitting on the fencepost to watch the storm roll in... and terrified of the damage it will bring when it begins... It will begin!" -- Bad Religion ------------------------------ From: telliamed@juno.com (Pat Brown) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:33:24 EST Subject: the NJC debate::My only comment. "I think all right-thinking people on this list are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up with being sick and tired of reading NJC." (with apologies to Monty Python) - ----- telliamed@juno.com ### All opinions expressed are yours. You have only yourself to blame. ### ------------------------------ From: telliamed@juno.com (Pat Brown) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:31:02 EST Subject: Re: slightlyJC: Hockey On Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Gregory Willms writes: >, its entertainment. they cheer when their >team scores, just as you would cheer when jewel starts playing a song >that you really like a lot. do you see the parallel here? > Yes, except for one thing -- at the end of a Jewel show, everyone's a winner. - ----- telliamed@juno.com ### All opinions expressed are yours. You have only yourself to blame. ### ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rubin" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:00:02 -5:00 Subject: Re: Bootleg CD You wrote: I agree with you that it's a shame that people who sell bootleg CD's are ripping off the artists, but some of the blame belongs to the record companies. The whole reason bootleg CD's are around is because a market for this material exsists and the record company, for whatever reason, has decided not to met that demand.... I reply: For the most part I agree....sometimes the artist feels that some of the live material is not worth putting out (bad recording or performance) Led Zepplin wanted nothing to do with "The Song Remains The Same" (album-not sure about the movie) or the record companies don't believe there will be any PROFIT from such a live album. :P You wrote: Also, I'd like your professional opinion, Michael, on another thought of mine. I once heard that it costs record companies less to manufature a CD than it does to make a cassette tape. Is this true? If so, then the record companies are ripping *us* off, and I shed not a tear for them if they lose a few bucks to bootlegers. I reply: CD manufacture does cost less than it used to, but cassettes are still a little cheaper-You or I could probably produce a CD (in quantity) with 4 color inserts and jewel case for $2-3.00. Suppose the record company pays $3 for the disc, $2 for artist and performance royalty and another $1 for promotion, sell to a distributor at $8 who sells it for 10 and you pay 14... the joke of it is that CD's cost less or the same to manufacture as vinyl YET the record companies took that time to double the effective street price of a CD versus an album....although prices have not really increased since then in relation to inflation-if anything a CD Purchased in 1996 for $15.00 is less expensive than one purchased for $14.00 in 1986 (in the 1986 dollars). Michael D. Rubin Product Manager, CD-Recorders Olympus Digital & Imaging Systems Group Two Corporate Center Drive Melville, New York, 11747, USA (800) 347-4027 X 5312 ------------------------------ From: Gregory Willms Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Bootleg CD maybe im completely wrong about this, and if i am, someone step up and slap me... if an artist signs a deal with a record company, they would have to give the record company permission to attend a concert, record the show, and then sell the recording. if the artist does not give this consent, then the record company is breaking the law. most (or all) of the bootleg cd's you can find are "illegal." whoever recorded the music was not granted permission to record, produce and sell the music. why record companies havent tried to get artists to agree to recording and selling more live shows is beyond me. i have a hunch that a lot of artists want to keep their love performances somewhat sacred. they want to keep bootlegs as bootlegs. where someone shows up with a hidden tape recorder and leaves feeling merrily deviant. point: recording and selling bootlegs is most likely not entirely up to the record company... - -greg http://www.geocities.com/broadway/2606 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Let me have music dying, and I seek no more delight." -- John Keats - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ My many e-mail addresses: | | greg_willms@atl.checkfree.com| willms@bgnet.bgsu.edu | redphish@hotmail.com | Huxxley@aol.com | - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Sinjin@ecn.com Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:06:34 -0700 Subject: Jewel on Access Hollywood Here's the transcript of Jewel's segment on "Access Hollywood" aired Thursday night on NBC. ***BEGINNING MISSING*** REPORTER: "She has a hit single and a hit debut album, _Pieces of You_, which has sold more than a million coppies." JEWEL: "That's something that's still hard to comprehend, that they like it. Hehehe, it's still hard to believe...it really is." REPORTER: "If Jewel seems surprised by her success, maybe it's because just four years ago this sweet sounding folk singer was living in her van while playing coffee houses in San Diego." JEWEL: "I had one favorite spot I parked every night, it was next to a little tree with blooming flowers. So I could pull right up next to it and open my window and there'd be flowers in my window, and nobody could see in so I felt like I pretended I was in Alaska or something." REPORTER: "This rags to riches story has an unusual beginning, on this 800 acre farm in Alaska where Jewel grew up with no running water or electricity and where she learned to yodel. Life is certainly different now, these days she's posing for pictures for _Sassy_ magazine and shooting a music video for her new single "You Were Meant for Me". No doubt, Jewel has come a long way. And with critics calling her the next Joanie Mitchel, there's no turning back." JEWEL: "I have a new car, I don't worry about eating, I don't worry about getting sick and being able to afford a doctor. Um, all those things...mainly, the biggest thing to me is I do feel I like I have a purpose. And I think everybody wants that and I feel I'm so glad to have it." ***END TRANSCRIPT*** They showed clips from both Jewel's videos (not the original WYMFM, though) as well as the picture of Jewel in the blue van. They also showed the filming of the new "YWMFM" video as well as Jewel in concert and...JEWEL'S OLD HOUSE IN HOMER, ALASKA!! I'm making a .jpg of it right now, so if anyone wants a copy let me know and I'll email it out. If anyone the beginning of this, *please* email me. My family told me several things about the beginning of the interview, including that Tom Cruise is a fan of Jewel...maybe even an Angel :) Maybe now Selena and Rachel will quit calling me "cute"! - -- Sinjin@ecn.com Lifeguard, Philosopher, Poet City of Angels JS96 ------------------------------ From: Jacob Richard Hirsch Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: pam and tmbg Does jewel have a sister named pam? or for that matter one named jennifer? (did anyone watch must see tv?) also i just wanted to say i thought it was cool when i read that they might be giants recorded an album or two in bearsville. Tmbg and jewel are the two artists i've seen in concert while here at school and its neat that they both recorded in bearsville. Jake ------------------------------ From: Dean Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 15:14:13 EST Subject: Re: the NJC debate::My only comment. On Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:33:24 EST you said: >"I think all right-thinking people on this list are sick and tired of >being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up with being sick and >tired of reading NJC." > Long live Monty Python... whereever he may be. :) Dean Harris P.S. I really know a guy who thought Monty Python was one person. When the name came up in conversation he said "I hate that fag." No offense, that's an exact quote. ------------------------------ From: "Tom O'Brien" <51299S96@student.csi.cuny.edu> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:49:39 Subject: Jewel on VH1 somewhere besides Crossroads I actually saw YWMFM on at 1:30 in the afternoon on VH1 Thursday, maybe we actually got thru to someone. - ---- "The most important things in life are always the hardest to say, because words diminish them." -Stephen King _The Body_ "Our standard of living somehow got stuck on survive."-Jewel "The Earth does not belong to us, we belong to the Earth." - Chief Seathl (aka Chief Seattle) ------------------------------ From: Raymond Wong Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NJC: Re: Bootleg CD Charlie wrote: > -Well, *I* certainly condemn making a profit off someone else's work with > -out giving them what they are entitled to. The term is pirating, BTW. Heavy agreement here, just so we're clear on this. It was the followup that pushed my buttons. Where I have the problem is in what Michael Rubin wrote: [history of Italian bootlegs removed] > The artist (our beloved Ms. Kilcher) is the one who suffers....moreso > than the record label. The worst part of this is that many bands do > NOT allow taping because of fear that such a bootleg will end up on More correctly, many bands agree to their label's demand to not allow taping, for fear that such a bootleg will be sold. It's the labels who fear. Other bands, like Phish, make it clear to the labels that taping is allowed. > the open market...Who loses, we all do: Well, Jewel might. We only lose if we let the record companies get away with making unsubstantiated claims: > The record company loses-unit sales As noted by many people, how many people are going to buy JUST the bootleg CD, with its live recording, and NOT buy POY? The claim that record companies lose sales is so transparent a lie it's insulting. > The Artist loses-royalties True. Of course, she doesn't get royalties from the CD houses like BMG or Columbia, either. Why is the artist the only one it's legal to cheat out of royalties? Then again, there were no unit sales DROPS because of the bootleg that anyone can show. She didn't make as much as she might have, but then, since the record companies aren't willing to sell us CDs of all her shows, she wouldn't have made any money anyway. So she loses no more than she does because of the label. > YOU LOSE-You can't tape shows (Thank you Jewel for allowing us to Of course, with the sort of record company logic presented here, it's just as easy to argue that having cassettes to pass around free also costs the record company and Jewel. This is why the labels always fight even the simple acts of taping. Is anyone naive enough to think they wouldn't use this phantom argument even without the existence of CD bootlegs? Considering they have, their record speaks for itself. > enjoy your concerts after the fact); You pay a price of $25.00 or > more (as opposed to $16.99 maximum list for a new single-disc title). The one bootleg I've bought was a 2 CD set for $30. Maximum list prices for standard (aluminum disc) pressings have already crept up to $17.99 list, even as the record companies have "cracked down" on bootlegs. There are numerous lawsuits alleging collusion, including testimony by people within the biz, that commercial labels have been trying to raise all CD prices, even as costs have continued to decline. The record biz has no moral footing on which to stand to criticize bootleggers. They don't offer to sell the CDs in question at ANY price, and the products they do are just as unfairly priced for the consumer. > And, CD prices stay higher because record companies pass on the cost > of enforcement of bootlegs by the RIAA to us, the consumer. ROTFL! So, because the labels don't like it, it makes their stuff cost more. Simple solution is for them to allow it. That way, there won't be any cost of enforcement to pass on. :D :D :D :D > Think about this when you purchase that bootleg... Yes. Also think about this when someone spouts record company rhetoric at you. There are lots of arguments against bootlegs, but the nobility of the record companies isn't one of them. They're not victims. I don't like the fact that bootleggers are making money without paying the artist. Jewel DID have to work to create those concerts, and she does deserve recompense from anyone who's able to enjoy them. There's clearly a demand for these CDs, else the bootleggers could not sell them. Jewel herself and her organization cannot sell them, either, but only because of the stranglehold the record companies have successfully conned the people into granting them by allowing mob like oligopolies of "licensing" companies like RIAA. > Just to note, I am NOT talking about promotional or limited release > items like PBFGB or STL.... Of course not. These are made by the record companies themselves. The record company is your friend. You can trust the record company. The record company only wants you to be happy. *ahem* I don't like supporting bootleggers for a only one reason: They're making money off the artist without paying the artist. The record companies don't deserve any of that. However, they, like the labels, are providing a product that people want. If a CD were truly being made at cost, and no one was going to profit anywqhere down the line, would Jewel really care? Would she treat this as really any different than regular taping? The record companies would, because it's still "their" market, as far as they're concerned. The dons do not take kindly to people doing business without their permission. I don't support bootlegs of Jewel for one simple reason: Jewel has asked us not to. I don't need record company lies, and I don't think most EDAs do, either. Sorry to tie up yet more bandwidth with yet more NJC, but I'm tired of sitting back and letting the lies be given the same accord as the truth. Ray Wong PO BOX 6163 negativl@netcom.com, negativl@best.com Hayward, CA 94540-6163 Member #11537, Debbie Gibson International Fan Club Co-Founder and Charter Member, Sutton Foster International Fan Club ------------------------------ From: Raymond Wong Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NJC: royalties/costs of CDs Okay, if it wasn't clear in my other post, I'd like to say that it was not my intent to attack Michael directly, so much as the record industry claims he seems to have accepted. I may have been unneccessarily confrontational, and I'd like to apologize if I came across that way. This time I'm not nearly as reactive, so much as curious, to what Michael Rubin wrote: [in response to the question of CD costs] > CD manufacture does cost less than it used to, but cassettes are > still a little cheaper-You or I could probably produce a CD (in > quantity) with 4 color inserts and jewel case for $2-3.00. In what quantity? My limited looking around for an unrelated CD project was that this is more in line with a 5,000 unit pressing or so. For the 50,000+ quantities of major record labels, I was given to understand that's less than a buck total, only a few cents of which is for the CDs themselves. (most of it being the publishing of the booklet and such) > Suppose the record company pays $3 for the disc, $2 for artist and > performance royalty and another $1 for promotion, sell to a Where did you get the $2 figure from? Of the bands I've talked to that have record deals, none of them is getting more than 10 cents per unit. I realize the advance an artist receives has to be factored in as well, but it still seems too high. Also, that would mean that only the cost of making the cassette would factor in, yet cassettes regularly go for 10 bucks, versus the CD price. Even if the CD is as high as $3 to make, that doesn't explain the huge price difference. > album....although prices have not really increased since then in relation to > inflation-if anything a CD Purchased in 1996 for $15.00 is less > expensive than one purchased for $14.00 in 1986 (in the 1986 > dollars). Yep. It's just that the cost of producing them has gone down far more. The cost of the media has always been incidental. Ray Wong PO BOX 6163 negativl@netcom.com, negativl@best.com Hayward, CA 94540-6163 Member #11537, Debbie Gibson International Fan Club Co-Founder and Charter Member, Sutton Foster International Fan Club ------------------------------ From: Chris Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:16:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Boston Jewel show Hey, I'm there!! Is anyone else interested? > Let's meet up and have a big EDA pilgramage type thing like last time. > It was fun. And gettin' to meet other list members was cool. Imagine having a > group of, say, 20 of us holdin up huge banners and bein' all happy n' stuff. ------------------------------ From: Blaine Sanders 5483 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:31:52 -0600 Subject: NJC: Nuts & WWSYS TAB >completely off the subject of the NJC/JC thing... >I'm not to sure I'd EVER bet my LEFT NUT!! on anything unless it was >sure thing.. > >SenztvRtst >Bradley (I mean REALLY a sure thing) Porter I take it you've already bet and lost your right one... :o Sorry! that was uncalled for.... :) Just wanted to say I bought the Acoustic Guitar World magazine with WWSYS in it. That's a spendy magazine ($4.95), but it's well worth it for the TAB to WWSYS. The article about Jewel wasn't anything new, but it was still good. Plus, as an added bonus, I got the TAB to my favorite Eagles song: "Peaceful Easy Feeling", and one of my fovorite old Tom Petty songs: "Free Falling". I haven't heard the Dave Mathews Band song: "So Much to Say" or The Who's "Pinball Wizard", but the TAB to those are in there, too. I'd also like to say to anyone trying to teach themselves to play guitar, WWSYS is a perfect beginner song. Take care, everyone. - -Blaine "who can't wait to blow the dust off his guitar" Sanders ------------------------------ From: Gregory Willms Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: slightlyJC: Hockey ahh, but even the "losers" in a hockey game win... they may not have won the game, but the won the knowlegde and experience that will help them the next time around... *cough* *i secretly know that this is all bullshit.* :) On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Pat Brown wrote: > > On Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Gregory Willms > writes: > >, its entertainment. they cheer when their > >team scores, just as you would cheer when jewel starts playing a song > >that you really like a lot. do you see the parallel here? > > > > Yes, except for one thing -- at the end of a Jewel show, everyone's a > winner. > > > ----- telliamed@juno.com > ### All opinions expressed are yours. You have only yourself to blame. > ### > - -greg http://www.geocities.com/broadway/2606 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Let me have music dying, and I seek no more delight." -- John Keats - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ My many e-mail addresses: | | greg_willms@atl.checkfree.com| willms@bgnet.bgsu.edu | redphish@hotmail.com | Huxxley@aol.com | - ------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: "Michael Rubin" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:39:11 -5:00 Subject: Re: NJC: royalties/costs of CDs Didn't take it personally :) Also the 10 cent royalty is probably from a bad contract.....Michael Michael D. Rubin Product Manager, CD-Recorders Olympus Digital & Imaging Systems Group Two Corporate Center Drive Melville, New York, 11747, USA (800) 347-4027 X 5312 ------------------------------ From: Raymond Wong Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NJC: Bootlegs/Official live releases Gregory Willms wrote: > maybe im completely wrong about this, and if i am, someone step up and > slap me... Well, I'll try to be gentler than that. :) (I'm also wrong quite often myself. Feel free to correct me as well, angels.) > if an artist signs a deal with a record company, they would have to give > the record company permission to attend a concert, record the show, and > then sell the recording. if the artist does not give this consent, then > the record company is breaking the law. most (or all) of the bootleg Not exactly. It's common practice to record shows. Most of the label people I've talked to have indicated that for the big labels, pretty much everything gets taped for at least archiving purposes. It's generally a standard part of the contracts and such. Usually, it's also videotaped, but the tape isn't anywhere close to release ready, often being simply a recording of the camera that shows the whole stage that is on the videoscreens for the benefit of people in the back of the venue. > cd's you can find are "illegal." whoever recorded the music was not > granted permission to record, produce and sell the music. why record [...] This is were the contract comes in. It's generally part of the contract that they can use the archive (or better, if they bothered) footage for promotional and such, like releasing clips for use in a news story, etc. If, however, they want to sell it, they then have to pay additional monies to everyone involved in the concert. (the backup band, singers, the lighting guy, the engineer, etc) In theory, this could get messy, having to hammer out a deal with each involved party, expecialy after the fact of the concert instead of in advance. Most of the time, though, the contracts contain pretty standard clauses regarding rates, and there are also various union rules covering it. > point: recording and selling bootlegs is most likely not entirely up to > the record company... I think you're using the term bootleg to refer to all live performances, so I'll address it as such. You are correct that the primary artist also usually has to consent to the release, but few artists argue that something should NOT be released (there are exceptions). The norm is that artists would like as much material out there as they can get, but the label won't sell it, because they don't think they can make money. There are artists who feel the live shows don't do justice to their music, and think the studio recording does, but considering Jewel's analogy of "faking an orgasm," I doubt she's one of them. :) In my experience, more performers would prefer live releases if they could get good quality recordings, which could be done if the labels were more willing to consider that. Ray Wong PO BOX 6163 negativl@netcom.com, negativl@best.com Hayward, CA 94540-6163 Member #11537, Debbie Gibson International Fan Club Co-Founder and Charter Member, Sutton Foster International Fan Club ------------------------------ From: Greg Phillips Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:18:43 -0400 Subject: BOOTLEG CD I don't own any bootlegs, but my opinion on the matter is that if the actual record company that the artist is signed to puts out a copy, then I am more than willing & will gladly buy from them than any other source that may have something to sell. Chris ------------------------------ From: Soul42@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:15:05 -0400 Subject: Re: NJC: Another Jewel Look-a-Like Hi EDA's, Yes, Alex I know that was Sophie Marceau in "Braveheart" and she is very pretty. But, the guy who first mentioned this was talking about the other actress, you know William Wallace's wife. Shania Twain is a country singer who is the second biggest selling female artist of the year (next to Alanis Morrissette). Anyway, can we at least agree that Jewel is the most beautiful woman in the world?:) Take care all.. Soulfully, Will ------------------------------ End of jewel-digest V1 #628 ***************************