From: owner-jewel-digest To: jewel-digest@smoe.org Subject: jewel-digest V1 #123 Reply-To: jewel@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-jewel-digest Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "jewel-digest-request@smoe.org" X-To-Unsubscribe: with "unsubscribe" as the body. jewel-digest Friday, 5 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 123 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: What would Jewel say? Re: Jewel re: Unattractive males OK, unattractive females not OK? Re: jewel, tori, melissa dylan/jewel show in toledo? Are we a 5? (fwd) I met her... :^) Re: "Brett M. Eskin" Re: why don't we all just grow up various things Jewel being hot Re: I met her... :^) Re: Are we a 5? (fwd) Re: crooked teeth [none] Jewel's REAL name... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 16:54:14 -0500 Subject: Re: What would Jewel say? At 02:01 PM 4/4/96 -0500, DEPTHTANK wrote: >Hell, most playboy playmates are >hot too, but once your past their bodies, what have you got? > >--Dave. Memories? :) [ your ? ] ------------------------------ From: Jim Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 16:54:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Jewel "On 12:33 PM 4/4/96 -0500, you sent this," to which I am replying thusly: >I am foolish? I am not the one that has to resort to using bad >language. I never said it was the ONLY reason I listened. You are >foolish, you don't read well. > >--Brett You said: > >Look, let's get real. Jewel is good and all, but the real reason I like > ^^^^ >is because she is attractive. Her lyrics are good, but I don't think the > Stating that the REAL reason you like her is because she is attractive, tends rather extremely to imply that any other reasons you have ARE NOT real... So perhaps it's not so much how I read, as how you chose to express what you were trying to say.. the impression you leave is that any talent or artistry she possesses end up being entirely secondary considerations in your appreciation of her. Maybe what you meant to say was that you really like her music, and the fact that she's incredibly attractive is a really nice plus, enhancing the whole experience for you? could be, I suppose, but now I'm putting words in your mouth, which I took umbrage to when you did it, so I'll shutup! no offense meant, Brett.. My apologies if any was taken! Jim ------------------------------ From: Jim Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 16:54:10 -0500 Subject: re: Unattractive males OK, unattractive females not OK? At 03:58 PM 4/4/96 -0500, Derek Mok wrote: > >I beg to differ with Jim's comment: > >Although it's true that there are more unattractive male artists who are >successful, I think that might be because there are more solo male >artists, period. Oh, I was talking percentages... Just walk through a record store and compare.. while the 'range' of appearance amongst the male artists at least vaguely resembles the 'range' in the general population, to myself, at least, that doesn't seem true with the female artists.. > >Also, Kim Deal of The Breeders is quite unattractive-looking, and she's a >hit. (I don't like The Breeders but plenty other people do) Jennifer >Trynin had a hit with Cockamamie. Juliana Hatfield, with big features >and a tomboy demeanor, made it to college-rock godhood. Meanwhile, >photogenic but musically inferior males like Jamie Walters, NKOTB >(remember?) and Take That are also very successful. I'm not saying by any means that ALL female artists are attractive, that none of them are 'less-than-pretty', just that is seems the averages don't even come close to matching general society, or the appearance range of male artists.. Of course, such judgements are entirely subjective.. all depends on what each of us considers attractive or unattractive.... so if you only go for redheads with a 'funny lip shape', you might only find ONE attractive female artist! > >Tanky. ------------------------------ From: Jim Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 17:05:20 -0500 Subject: Re: jewel, tori, melissa [This is being posted without attribution, genderless, as something of a general observation.. decide for yourselves who it most aptly applies to...] Geez.. the child has problems interfacing with adults... gratuitous attacks anytime it thinks it will show off it's supposed superiority... I do believe someone has a bit of an ego problem, thinking that trying to make others look small will make it appear larger than it is... perhaps it just missed nap time, though ------------------------------ From: Kamyar Aram Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 17:29:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: dylan/jewel show in toledo? as someone suggested, i looked up dylan's tour dates on the net... i found the closest show to me is April 30, toledo ohio... does anyone know if jewel will be playing with him there... or why when i called up ticketmaster they didn't know about the show?... is there an actual show scheduled? any info appreciated... thanks peace... let me say that again... PEACE yar ------------------------------ From: "J.j. Varley" Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 14:30:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Are we a 5? (fwd) I found this on another listserv. It reminds me of what we are going through here. > THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS > > Every list seems to go through the same cycle: > > 1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush > alot about how wonderful it is to find kindred souls). > > 2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to > the list, and brainstorm recruitment strategies). > > 3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy > threads develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up) > > 4. Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; > lots of information and advice is exchanged; experts help other > experts as well as less experienced colleagues; friendships > develop; people tease each other; newcomers are welcomed with > generosity and patience; everyone---newbie and expert alike--- > feels comfortable asking questions, suggesting answers, and > sharing opinions) > > 5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases > dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every > reader; people start complaining about the signal-to-noise > ratio; person 1 threatens to quit if *other* people don't > limit discussion to person 1's pet topic; person 2 agrees > with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten up; more > bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads > than is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets > annoyed) > > 6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone > who asks an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious > post; newbies are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing > level of a few minor issues; all interesting discussions happen > by private email and are limited to a few participants; the > purists spend lots of time self-righteously congratulating > each other on keeping off-topic threads off the list) > > OR > > 6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the > participants stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly > every few weeks; many people wear out their second or third > 'delete' key, but the list lives contentedly ever after) ------------------------------ From: Adrian <103265.1732@compuserve.com> Date: 05 Apr 96 18:43:55 EST Subject: I met her... :^) Hello all. Jewel went to our local radio station today. (She's doing a concert tonight and I'm going.) Anyway, being the loyal fan that I am, I went over there to get her autograph, etc. I was sitting there when the radio manager or whatever comes out to talk to me. I guess because of my age (I confess I'll just be 16 at the end of the month) he thought I must be up to no good or something. Like I was going to kidnap her or something. Anyway, I sat around for about 35 or 40 minutes when she finally came. I was the only fan there. Aparently the guy had been a little freaked about me or something and had been telling her about me because when he walked through the door with her, he says, "Here's the young man I was telling you about." Luckily, Jewel was *much* more cordial. She signed my cd cover (It said, "If you were a buttercup, your eyelashes would be yellow.") and a photo of her I got out of the paper for a friend of mine. So this is ecstasy. :^) Anyway, I'm still on cloud 9. Oh yeah. I also met her dad. He was there with her. He's grey haired, bald and really nice. :^) She sang and yodelled on the radio, but I didn't get home in time to record it. :'( Forrest ------------------------------ From: Jim Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 18:53:02 -0500 Subject: Re: "Brett M. Eskin" At 11:15 AM 4/5/96 -0800, Neile Graham wrote: > > >Sorry to bring this up to the list yet again, but I told this person if he >sent me any more mail I would complain to his postmaster and he did and >so I just have. > >I would appreciate if we could all drop this now. There are few recourses >for abuse on the net but the best one is shunning such people. > >--Neile > >On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, Brett M. Eskin wrote: > >> What the hell is this guy's problem? When did I say I didn't like the >> music? When did this guy become my father? Relax dude, you act as if I >> shot your mother. >> >> ==Brett Sorry, Neile, but I'd have to say YOU over-reacted.. I of course don't know the details of whatever personal email exchange went on between you, but the fact is, the setup of this listserv, in maintaining the poster's email address as the FROM: string, means that responding to the list without responding to the poster is a continous juggling act of cutting and pasting email addresses.. other implementations drop all poster data from the headers, but then, that makes it difficult to ascertain who the messages are from, unless each poster identifies themselves via a sig, or personally signing their posts.. Brett posted two messages, within a few minutes of each other.. the next one, which you'd have almost certainly gotten along with this one you responded to, he does make an attempt to mollify the situation... Under the circumstances, and of course, granting that I don't know the details of those private exchanges, it's my opinion that your response in mailing his postmaster is far more a case of net abuse than his inadvertant sending of mail to you.. Sheesh. The guy posted his opinion. We (many of us, in any case) jumped on him.. I'd imagine he was feeling rather bruised at the time, and certain postings about during the course of this thing from another list member, who shall remain nameless, exacerbated the situation with scathing and nasty rhetoric.. so perhaps he lashed out at you in that personal exchange.. But this "I'm gonna tell your mommy" crap, of mailing postmaster's and sys-admin's over exchanges of this type, is getting tired... that sort of response, in my opinion, is ONLY warranted in clear cases of abuse: constant and gratuitous use of profanity (though that's a judgement call), or consistent attacks in a public forum.. OR, harrassment, which would mean an ongoing pattern of harrassing email.. and two email message do NOT constitute harrassment, in my opinion (and I doubt any court would find it so, either). Based on what I see of this particular exchange, it seems to me that you reacted as you did, not because of the content of this latest message, but because Brett stepped over your 'line in the sand' of sending you email.. I rather suspect based on what you say that even if he'd sent an I'm sorry message, you'd have done the same thing, JUST BECAUSE he sent you email after you'd told him not to.. but the simple fact is that responding to a message on this list without sending the poster a response also, is difficult.. And that perspective is given further weight by the fact that you called on everyone in the list to disassociate themselves from Brett, denying him tapes and so forth.. Brett should have shown more restraint.. I should have shown more restraint.. a bunch of other people should have shown more restraint.. and YOU should have shown more restraint.. My .02, anyway. Jim and Brett, if you get a query from your sys-admin, pass them my email address if they'd like another perspective, another opinion on this, or send me his/her email address, and I'll forward something to them.. [after completing this, I almost changed it to NOT point to the list, but simply to Neile and Brett.. then I read another posting in this same thread, and decided to leave it.. it seems to me that someone else far more deserving of castigation and disassociation than is Brett... ] ------------------------------ From: Jim Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 18:53:05 -0500 Subject: Re: why don't we all just grow up At 02:32 PM 4/5/96 -0500, Truna@aol.com wrote: >You know somthing people this is all getting too be too much, after a day, it >takes me about 30 minuttes just too read letters about this person is better >then this person, or this person is pretty andthis one isn't. I'm seriously >getting SICK of it. I'm rilly sorry for adding yet another letter on this >whole obnoxious topic, but it's seriously got to stop. I beg of all a ya too >just drop it. No more private letters, or list letters. You can't judge a >person just on a coupla notes. Lets just cut it out, grow up, and at least >TRY too act your age. THANK YOU!! > >Alison Alison, I understand your point... this point isn't so much specifically in response to your post, as it is in general to a bunch of posts. It's a discussion list, and "PEOPLE" are involved. Where should the lines be drawn? should the list be limited to ONLY factual discussion, tour and play dates, lyric lists, that sort of thing? If opinions ARE allowed to be posted, who decides which are appropriate? IF someone posts about liking or disliking a particular song, contrasting opinions will probably be generated.. are these inherently any more or less germane than the whole process that began with Brett's post of his opinion? Granted, that particular deal did get a bit blown out of proportion, but gee, dealing with human beings, those things happen.. the only solution to it is some sort of moderation, but then, you've got a moderator playing GOD over everyone, clipping and disallowing posts based on THEIR (the moderator's) perspective of appropriateness, which may not be the same as yours, or mine, or any one else's... The first half of last year, I spent a great deal of time in rmt-a.. and often, we'd get posts from people griping about ANY posting that was not absolutely and wholly Tori-specific... we ignored them.. the people in the newsgroup liked it the way it was, free and easy, silly and happy, with freedom to go off on tangents about most anything.. Some thought that that was bad, that the newsgroup should be filled with nothing but Tori-specific postings about songs and concert dates, sans opinions or our other input... but it was OUR group, and the largest majority liked things the way they were.. certainly, sometimes things would get a bit out of hand (finals time was difficult, a lot of short tempers due to too much studying and too little sleep :D), but generally, others in the group would step in on both sides, separate the feuding parties, and cuddle them into submission, persuading them to 'kiss and makeup'... it was amazing to me how quickly those people could defuse a flame war... I don't know if it's still like that, life intruded with other things (see my home page/people links) that tended to pull me off the newsgroups and lists, and I've not gotten back there as yet.. While some people prefer it, a fact based list or newsgroup, to me, seems dry and pointless.. a moderated group, while better, still ends up being limited to the perspectives of the moderator.. For myself, I prefer a free-form list, one that allows people to be as and what they are, presenting themselves in whatever guise they'd like.. granted, sometimes things will get out of hand.. but that's because we're PEOPLE, and we aren't all the same, and we've different likes and dislikes, different ways of expressing ourselves, of reacting to things.. it's that diversity that makes us worthwhile.. if you and I were exactly the same in every respect, there would be no point in us talking, as there'd be nothing to discuss.. I'd much rather see a free-form list with occasional feuds, than a list limited by artifice to facts and figures and some other person's decision as to appropriate material... People start making 'unsubscribe noises' whenever a list goes in a direction they don't favor.. yet you've got perhaps several hundred opinions out there on what the appropriate direction for the list should be... I notice that people don't 'unsubscribe' from their family when little family arguments pop up, they deal with them, weather them, and get past them.. and I'd hope that ALL here, could perhaps see ourselves as a 'family' of sorts, brought together by our shared love and respect for Jewel and her marvelous music, that we can revel in our sharing of thoughts and opinions, and accept that occasionally, as in ALL families, there will from time to time be some friction, some disagreement... but that that is no reason to start kicking 'family members' out in the street, or to run away... So, if someone should happen to notice that 'cousin' Jim has a tendency to pontificate, I'm hoping that you'll remember FIRST that he's CRAZY ABOUT JEWEL, mesmerized by her music, in love with the soul of her artistry, so no matter what faults he has, he can't be ALL bad... and maybe cut him some slack! Jim ...do you hate him/cause he's pieces of you? - --- Jim Atanasoff karliss@fred.net jatanasoff@aol.com http://www.fred.net/karliss/home.html ------------------------------ From: j.mullins1@genie.com Date: Fri, 5 Apr 96 23:55:00 UTC 0000 Subject: various things Just to hit a few subjects in one post: I was pushed completely over the edge into fandom at a Jewel show. Even wrote a song about her the next day! :) Unbelievable. To the 16 year old fan with a punk band... Just because music is sometimes acoustic and mellow does NOT mean you're a wuss for listening to it. A lot of beautiful things ahve been written by acoustic musicians, and it can be a very subtle, sensitive form of expression. Some of the most guttural, raw, ballsy music I have ever heard are mellow acoustic tunes. As much as I love rock and roll, LOUD, I might add, I am mostly a solo acoustic performer/writer and would do Jewel songs in my live gigs if I was foolish enought to think I could do them justice. And ask anyone that knows me, I certainly am no wuss by any means. So listen to what you like and tell your friends to shove it if they don't like it :) The Penn State show...I'm getting kinda itchy to go...maybe I'll see some of you there! As for why there aren't many ugly women with record deals...let's see...this does *not necessarily reflect my opinon*, so please don't flame me, but women I have heard being called unattractive who have record deals...Janis Joplin (OK, she's dead, but still sells well), Shawn Colvin, Edie Brickell, Alanis, Haether Nova, Courtney Love, Tori Amos, Joni Mitchell, Yoko Ono (!), and there must be 1000's of others who have deals but haven't hit mainstream yet if they will at all. Now, I don't know if you think all these women are hot, and I'm not going to reveal my personal opinions here, but I would think that either the one who posted the question either thinks all these women are hot or simply hasn't been exposed to that much music in which case, they should probably not be discussing it at legnth... Just my $.02, Shakey (j.mullins1@genie.geis.com) "This is just a guess, but I must confess It feels better being certain, please excuse my truthfulness" - G. Lightfoot ------------------------------ From: j.mullins1@genie.com Date: Fri, 5 Apr 96 23:55:00 UTC 0000 Subject: Jewel being hot "Brett M. Eskin" wrote: > Look, let's get real. Jewel is good and all, but the real reason I like > is because she is attractive. Her lyrics are good, but I don't think the > girl has one ounce of rythm. Her songs are like poems with a guitar, > not like songs. But once again, she is hot. "Let's get real"? I AM real. Try taking your own advice. Yes, she is VERY attractive, but I thought she was attractive long before I ever saw her. I was turned on by her voice and her lyrics. She does have good rhythm too. It may not be that apparent, but she keeps time very well. I don't think Ben Keith would have produced her, or Neil Young would have invited her to record at his ranch, or the Stray Gators would have backed her if if that was not the case. Her songs are like peoms with a guitar, not like songs? What the hell are you talking about? ALL songs are either poetry or prose with background noise. Any writer knows that. In almost ten years as a musician and a writer, and among the hundreds, if not thousands, of people I've crossed paths with, you appear to be one of the most uninformed, close- minded people I've ever witnessed. Shakey (j.mullins1@genie.geis.com) "This is just a guess, but I must confess It feels better being certain, please excuse my truthfulness" - G. Lightfoot ------------------------------ From: Jim Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 19:22:56 -0500 Subject: Re: I met her... :^) At 06:43 PM 4/5/96 EST, Adrian wrote: >"Here's the young man I was telling you about." Luckily, Jewel was *much* more >cordial. She signed my cd cover (It said, "If you were a buttercup, your >eyelashes would be yellow.") and a photo of her I got out of the paper for a >friend of mine. So this is ecstasy. :^) > >Anyway, I'm still on cloud 9. Someone tie a rope to Forrest's foot, before he floats away!! I can imagine how you feel... I once went to see Mitch Ryder at a club in DC.. (Yeah, way back! Real big in the '60s, he was my favorite through most of the 70's and early 80s. this particular date was March 11th, 1981) some problems in the setup prevented the 8pm show from starting on time, so I and a friend spent some 3 hours sitting at a table with Mitch, buying him beer, and talking about he and his music.. at one point, we followed him backstage to check on things, and a bartender intercepted us to tell my friend and I we weren't allowed back there. till Mitch said "They're with me!"... geez, what a feeling! he got our party a table dead front on stage... Yikes, what a night.. took months to come down... ------------------------------ From: Jim Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 19:22:54 -0500 Subject: Re: Are we a 5? (fwd) At 02:30 PM 4/5/96 -0800, J.j. Varley wrote: > >I found this on another listserv. It reminds me of what we are going through >here. > >> THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! Wonderful! ------------------------------ From: Adrian <103265.1732@compuserve.com> Date: 05 Apr 96 20:17:11 EST Subject: Re: crooked teeth >Say it ain't so. :) For some unknown reason that "crooked tooth" makes me all >the more attracted to her. Could I be the only one??? Count me as number 2. I saw her in person today at the radio station (as already posted) and I thought her "crooked tooth" made her all the more endearing. Forrest ------------------------------ From: Aaron Matthew Suever Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 21:24:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [none] Wow! It's been rather exciting here lately, kinda like a soap opera. Thankfully, I've had more time than usual lately so I wasn't completely swamped, but I pity the rest of you workers who have other things to do. Hopefully my message will fall in the slight lull that seems to occur over the weekend. I must say that I had to fight the urge to post and post and post in response to recent events. Luckily I'm a slow typer and some of you responded with the same kinds of insightful (not inciteful) things that I would have wanted to say, so I didn't have to. Um, I don't want to start anything here (I'm a little tuckered out), but I've never been on a mailing list before this one. I thought it was a bit different from a newsgroup. All this back and forth discussion is rather much to handle. Maybe there should be an actual Jewel newsgroup for this stuff. Or can I get on Jewel_mail lite? :} There's no way I'm gonna unsubscribe no matter how much stuff you all post. On a positive note (imo), we did get to hear from some people who usually don't post. And soon I'm going to try out a new mailreading technique that should save considerable time. I'm just not going to read messages from certain frequent posters 'cuz it seems like the less some people have to say, the more they feel compelled to talk. I have a friend who's like this. He's a really nice guy, but sometimes I just have to say to him, "Why are you telling me this?" Before you scream out censorship, may I point out that I'm not suggesting anyone should be kicked off the list or silenced. Everyone has a right to say what they think (imo). But the right to say something is not the same as the right to force others to hear everything you have to say, so I'm skippin' messages. Oops, the drawback to that is that if I don't wade thru the junk, it won't really be fair if I do feel compelled to join in the melee. Arrgggghhhh! I didn't ask for this! Which brings me to another observation. A coupla times people have posted stuff that was not specifically aimed at the list audience, like that racist newsgroup warning and the Winnie the Pooh stuff. The Pooh poster had the manners to post a short warning beforehand to the effect of "Hey, this is what's coming up next. If you're not interested, skip it." My thanks for that, and I thought it was handled well. And the racist warning poster felt that he/she was doing us a service, surely. My issue here is not the importance of these postings. I like Winnie the Pooh and racism is a huge issue.I just want to ask that we consider the value of our posts to _all_ the list members. It's a judgement call, I know, so there will be differing opinions. Just please consider it. Hey, I thought this message was worthy, but maybe you won't agree. In fact, you people are probably starting to get annoyed by the lecturing messages suggesting how to behave too, so I'm sorry to do that. The flame wars seem to be much about telling others what they should do, and the response seems to always be rebellious - "Oh yeah? You can't tell ME what to do! I can do what I want!" Is this really surprising? I don't think so, it seems like human nature to me (or is it in actuality human habit?). All right, I'll stop now. I know when I do post, I go on forever. (hmm, I wonder how many people made it this far?) At least for a little while, could we send discussions as quickly as possible to private email, just for a breather? Aaron Suever squeek@umich.edu p.s. If you _were_ irritated by this yet another message about recent list events, think about it before you post your own addition regarding said events. I almost didn't send this one, I swear. ------------------------------ From: SBB4184@alpha.CC.OBERLIN.EDU Date: Fri, 05 Apr 1996 22:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Jewel's REAL name... Dear Jewel-list, I actually typed Jewel's name on the end of my last message, but something's funky with my e-mail word processing program, so it didn't make it onto the earlier post. Anyhow, her real name is NOT just Jewel Kilcher (with no middle name), it's Juel Kilcher (with an umlaut over the "u", kinda like the phrase "Good Jule" (Is that Norwegian? I don't know...)). I don't know her family. I won't lie and say that I dated her, though I did have friends that she dated. (Don't start hounding me for scandalous details... they didn't tell, and I never asked...) Anyway, here's my little blurb about the high school Jewel went to. It's a private arts high school about 15 minutes from Traverse City, Michigan. Next door to the campus is a state park, and the campus itself includes beaches on two lakes, as well as acres of forest. Jewel was an art major in high school (there were/are 5 majors at Interlochen: visual arts, creative writing, dance, music, and theatre). Since classes in the 5 departments were open to non-majors, it was common for people to dabble in genres outside of their own particular major. It was wonderful to interact with talented people from all over the world throughout high school, but the price wasn't cheap. Tuition was over $10,000 per year, but nearly everyone was on at least a 1/2 scholarship. We wore dorky uniforms of light blue tops and navy blue pants. When I saw Jewel play in Cleveland, I gave her shit for performing in a light blue turtleneck (which would've qualified as uniform). I'll quit rambling about all my memories of those days for now, but if you ever get the chance (especially during the summer camp on the same campus) check it out. They have a web page, if you use a search engine to find Interlochen Center for the Arts. Jewel didn't have the greatest of times there, and she seemed a little touchy about talking about old times with me when I last saw her, but if you can't tell, I loved the place.... Sorry to be so long-winded, Brian Bartel ------------------------------ End of jewel-digest V1 #123 ***************************