From: owner-jewel-digest To: jewel-digest@smoe.org Subject: jewel-digest V1 #27 Reply-To: jewel@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-jewel-digest Precedence: bulk X-To-Unsubscribe: Send mail to "jewel-digest-request@smoe.org" with "unsubscribe" as the body. jewel-digest Tuesday, 23 January 1996 Volume 01 : Number 027 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Jewel stuff #2 Re: flames Re: . . . please . . . Re: Jewel in Ann Arbor Everyday Angels? Hiranya, Kerry, Neile Re: Neile Re: . . . please . . . Jewel imitating others Re: . . . please . . . YWMFM cd single JEWEL: Lost First Sentences X-Mailer: MUSIC/SP V4.1.0 Re: YWMFM cd single Re: JEWEL: Lost First Sentences Re: YWMFM cd single please listen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: toaster@canada.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 01:34:46 -0500 Subject: Jewel stuff #2 respect".....I agree wholeheartedly, and hope that everyone else does too. Good stuff Jon - - John.......Toaster@canada.com - - PS. Doh!! her show in Toronto on Feb. 1st was cancelled.... how I miss the old days of her C'est What shows...... ------------------------------ From: Jacob Richard Hirsch Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 01:52:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: flames I said earlier people need to go back and read that thing someone posted about the evolution of mailng lists. I know last summer RDT was taken over by one guy, hobbes. Those who were on there remember. There were big flame wars. This guy was obviously a fan of tori but he was also (it seemed to me) just there to provoke a fight and get people angry and he got off from seeing people squirm, especially when he knew he was in no danger (i.e. hiding behind his computer). The list never really recovered from that until now when tori's new BOYS FOR PELE comes out TODAY!!!!!! I'd like to also add that RDT was where i first heard about Jewel... I e-mailed in private to learn more about her once i had heard some song and was impressed. I also learned a lot from RDTers by asking for info on Sarah McLachlan, Indigo Girls, and Jane Siberry cause i knew people on there had similar music tastes. US jewel fans could do the same... Anyway that's the end of my rambling for the day Jake P.S. CHILL OUT this list is about Jewel, her music, concerts, AND i hope about other things that we think many jewel fans would be interested in. ------------------------------ From: aharris@powergrid.electriciti.com (Adam P. Harris) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:03:13 -0800 Subject: Re: . . . please . . . Hello, First, I must say that I enjoyed Kerry's post even though I don't agree with all of it. I think it is important for everyone here to express themselves and their ideas. People should be less concerned with what other people write and more concerned with why they get so angry with what other people write. In other words, look to yourself (yeah, and with this post I am a fine example! :-)) But seriously, I find these posts interesting because even if I disagree I usually learn something. Secondly, I know that there are probably people on this list that hate me for posting something that is not _specifically_ about Jewel. I believe, however, that someone like Jewel should inspire us to look at things in ways we haven't before. I think it is only reasonable to assume, therefore, that we will talk about things other than just Jewel herself. Personally, one of the reasons I am on this list is to listen to Jewel fans talk. We have a common interest and it gives us the opportunity to explore ideas with a common base. There is really no need to ever get angry over these posts. Ok, now off my high horse and some comments on what Kerry said: (again, this is not meant to be argumentative. Think of it as more of an exploration). >Artists don't blatently copy one another and then go and admit it. I don't think it is so much 'blatently copy' as it is inspiration. I know a lot of artists who try to write a 'whomever' song. I never consider this to be a rip off. For one thing, the songs usually sound nothing like the artists they are 'copying'. I also think it is one of the things that makes song writting so great. Artists build upon each other. They take what they like in another's style and add to it. I suppose I need an example. Ok, well how about this one. From "The Compleat Beatles" page 82 (a two volume book set with all the Beatles sheet music and various interviews and articles -- great book -- sorry I know this is supposed to be a "Jewel only" list but I like the Beatles too :-)) Anyway, there is an interview with John Lennon where they ask him "who wrote what" since all of the songs that John and Paul wrote were labeled 'Lennon-McCartney'. When asked him about "Please Please Me" he said: "I wrote all of this one. I was trying to do a Roy Orbison." What! The Beatles blatently copying Roy Orbison! An outrage! Say it's not so! :-) He not only admitted it, he said it matter-of-factly. Didn't bother him and I'm sure it didn't bother Roy. He was probably very flattered. > She's not writing a kindalikeTorisong. She's writing a Jewel >song about a real experience that she had while hitch-hiking. I think the 'copying' referred to the musical style not the story. Although it might refer to the lyrical design and approach. I wish I knew more about Tori; I might be able to spot it. Like I said, a lot of times the songs don't sound anything like the artists they were 'copying'. Anyway, I don't mean to be getting down on you Kerry but I think this is actually a pretty cool topic. Anyone else have other examples? I'd love to hear them! > And by the way, for all you baby people out there that can't handle >opinions, Jewel and Tori are alike in many ways, and they are different >in many ways. I think what people are trying to say is that if you like >Jewel, here's someone else you might want to check out that is very >talented just like Jewel. I must say that I agree with you on this one Kerry (although I don't think I would have been so harsh :-)). And I will check out Tori. You know before this list I never really payed attention to her. I am looking forward to it! Waiting to hear what you think... Adam aharris@electriciti.com ------------------------------ From: AlwysLaust@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 03:06:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Jewel in Ann Arbor ------------------------------ From: Steve Ito Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:40:16 -0500 Subject: Everyday Angels? There has been an alarming tendency of late for people who have been instrumental in the formation of this list as a community to quit, or seriously consider quitting. Some of you may not realize this, but Neal Copperman (along with Jeff Hanson) was our biggest source of Jewel information before Hiranya arrived. When I was actually active in helping Colin S. with his web page (my apologies to Colin for having been kind of useless lately), I asked Neal and Jeff to write a Jewel FAQ that we could put on the web page, since besides Hiranya, they knew the most about Jewel, and you have all seen the results! Even now, he and Jeff are our prime source of information on Jewel's pre-CD, Innerchange Coffee House days. A couple of days ago, Neal left the list. And I shouldn't have to point out Neile Graham's contribution to this list... her tireless efforts, along with another anonymous list member, who also has been laying very low lately (and possibly quit), have resulted in a tremendous tape available free to all Jewel list members (and only to Jewel list members) that Jewel herself marvelled over. That she and the anonymous person actually managed to follow through with this project is fantastic; we've all seen how people can talk enthusiastically about starting tape trees and so on, but somehow never get around to actually doing it. On this list, the words "Rare Angels" should always be linked with Neile Graham, because she is one! And I fear she, too, is dangerously close to abandoning the list. And now Colin Stuckless, maintainer of the Unofficial Jewel Homepage, has decided to call it quits. I would like to point out that Colin also has had contact with Jewel's mom for quite some time now, but has never used it to be superior to the rest of us. He just quietly went about the business of maintaining one of the best fan-based web-sites on the net. Neal and Neile were two of the founding members of this list. Colin has also been around since the list's early days. I myself haven't lost faith in this list... *yet*, but certainly my enthusiasm for the list is diminished significantly with the loss of any of these pivotal members, never mind all three of them. This list has been tremendously argumentative about ridiculously minor things lately. If it continues, the only people who will remain will be the arguers. Right now, we certainly *don't* deserve the title "Everyday Angels". It's up to all of us to bring ourselves back to the point where we could deserve such a moniker. Sorry for the lengthy posts. Steve - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Ito, | "Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who Psychology Dept. | says differently is selling something." University of Toronto | -- The Dread Pirate Roberts Toronto, ON, Can. | ------------------------------ From: Steve Ito Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 04:40:14 -0500 Subject: Hiranya, Kerry, Neile Kerry said: >Hiranya. But you see there is a reason. I have recieved messages from >this list that have said that Hiranya is not reliable. How am I, or >anyone else suppose to know that she has these connections with Jewel? >I'm sorry once again to Hiranya, but Jewel's song really doesn't sound >like Tori (to me at least.) Kerry, you definitely cannot be faulted for not knowing that Hiranya is our connection to Jewel and Lenedra (Jewel's mom/manager). It was made clear to us when Hiranya joined the list sometime in late spring/early summer, and what a welcome addition Hiranya was to this list! Few mailing lists can boast such a diligent, helpful connection with the artist in question. But one thing is for certain: never has the information Hiranya has passed along ever been less than 100% reliable. I'm not sure who it was from this list who told you that Hiranya is not reliable, but I *am* quite certain it was not someone who has been around since Hiranya joined. (Hmmmmm.... actually, there was a post not *too* long ago where she described herself to us... but that's irrelevant, if you didn't know who Hiranya was, you didn't know, that's fine.) In the interests of keeping the peace, I would also like to point out that Kerry did apologize in this note. It appeared to me that for most of her post, Kerry was just taking sort of an extreme stand on a viewpoint that many of us, including me, agree with... that comparisons between Jewel and other artists are inevitable and even useful. However, to some extent we must accept that we are not going to agree on all things. Some people here don't like Tori Amos. Some people here don't like Sarah McLachlan. There is no need to become defensive and lash out at these people. Simply accept that they hold different viewpoints than yours. Kerry continued... >sound like jokes to me and I was quite offended by them. And excuse me if >you don't agree about the copying thing, but I never said she was >blatently copying a Tori song, I was talking about Tori's style, and >according to Hiranya's message that's what Jewel said she was doing. I Neile *didn't* accuse you of saying that Jewel blatantly copied a Tori song. She also was talking about Tori's style. And Neile was right, too... I think any artist worthy of their salt examines the work of other artists, both their predecessors and their contemporaries, sees what it is that makes them work, and incorporates it into their own style. To ignore a rich legacy of work of thousands of talented artists past and present in creating your own would be a massive waste. In fact, I think it would be incredibly egotistical to think that your art is so perfect that you cannot learn from anyone else. So Jewel tried to write a Tori-style song. That's not copying, that's a measure of how well you've learned another artists' style. Whether she was successful or not, you can be the judge. I'll bet in any case Jewel learned something from the experiment, and the benefits will show up in her songwriting! >love Jewel, don't get me wrong, but I don't admire people that copy other >people. I have been a musician ever since I was a baby (piano, guitar, >and vocals) and I was taught, and believe differently than Jewel. I think >I am entitled to my opinion. This is a free country and internet. I agree with you that copying is wrong, to an extent. Covering other people is not wrong, for example... it's a tribute. For example, Jewel sometimes sings a Tracy Chapman song, "Behind the Wall." Is this copying? Maybe in the literal sense of the word, but the important thing is that she does it because she thinks it's a great song by a great artist. But for example stealing someone else's lyrics and calling them your own... that I would call copying, and that's wrong, as far as I'm concerned. However, I don't think that trying to write a song in a "Tori Amos" style is copying at all. Jewel also tried writing songs in a blues/jazz style, and what emerged was "A Very Big Girl" (one of my faves, BTW), and "I've Got the Blues More Than You Do". I don't think anyone would call that copying, but the blues style, the jazz style, are really a sort of amalgamation of the styles of countless musicians known as blues musicians and jazz musicians. So really, I don't think we differ in our beliefs about copying being wrong... it's just that I don't see Jewel writing a song in Tori's style as an experiment to be copying. If you do, that's fine, we can agree to disagree on this point. > In response, I think there are a lot of people on this list that can't >handle opinions. That's the whole reason why they were fighting about the >two artists. And I'm sorry once again to Hiranya, next time maybe she >should tell us where she got the info so that people don't question it. Hiranya is actually trying to keep a bit of a low profile, which is understandable. She's a sensitive person who understands that someone in her position could easily exploit it so that she is the center of attention at all times, and play some sort of god-figure role. Certainly, she could come across that way if she began every message with "I am Hiranya, official spokesperson for Jewel and Jewel's management. Listen to what I have to say!" I think she has done an amazing job of popping up to provide information and answer questions as our connection to Jewel, without our feeling like she is anything but one of us, a fellow fan who is on the list to talk about Jewel and her music. The line between "official connection" and "fellow fan and list-member" can't be an easy one to tread, but Hiranya has managed to do it and make it look easy. Anyway, let's all note once again that Kerry apologized twice, even if she qualified them somewhat. From Kerry's point of view, Hiranya was just another nobody on the list, and she popped up out of nowhere to say something that few of us could have possibly imagined (certainly not me!): that Jewel wrote GGtW as a "can I write a Tori Amos-style song". Why wouldn't she doubt the credibility of the person making such an outrageous claim? I certainly would, if I had not already known Hiranya's background. And Kerry, you may have been a bit surprised by how protective we are of Hiranya, but I hope you understand by now why she is so important to us. Steve - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Ito, | "Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who Psychology Dept. | says differently is selling something." University of Toronto | -- The Dread Pirate Roberts Toronto, ON, Can. | ------------------------------ From: "Matt Bittner" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:55:33 -0600 Subject: Re: Neile On 23 Jan 96 at 0:19, various people on the Jewel list mentioned: As an "original" member of the list, I want to thank Neile and Colin for setting the record straight. Kerry's stone throwing got out of hand, and those two - as eloquently as possible - explained the situation. I too am gettin weary with reading this list. As the post that went through the stages of a list mentioned, hopefully it will pass, and the list will be better for it. I for one don't see any problems with mentioning other artists here - as long as it doesn't get out of hand. This "she does so", "she does not"-sound-like-Tori rambling has gotten out of hand. If it wasn't for Tori - and others like her (Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez, etc.) - Jewel wouldn't have the popularity that she does today. We - being the collective list - are the lucky ones to be able to discuss one of the best female singer/songwriters, and to get first hand info about her, via Hiranya. My thought: maybe add a little blurb about Hiranya to the FAQ. When last I checked, there wasn't anything mentioning her. Maybe just a little thing like "And thanks to Hiranya, friend to the family and list member, this list is kep abreast of things in the life of Jewel." Just a suggestion, I might add. FWIW, Hiranya and others, looks like Jewel *WILL* be here 14 February. The radio station that is tied to the venue she's coming to is - in a word - stupid. They went ahead and booked GLU before checking "the books". Idiots. So, looks like I will be able to see Jewel - finally - and stop complaining about not being able to. Thanks to Neile, Colin, Jeff and Hiranya, et.al., this list *can* be a great place to be. Matt - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Matthew Bittner WW1 Modeler, ecto subscriber, semi-new dad, meba@cso.com PowerBuilder developer; Omaha, Nebraska Disclaimer: opinions expressed by me are my responsibility only. "You cannot make anything foolproof, because the fools are so ingenious." - Christian Walters - -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ------------------------------ From: Raven Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:46:43 EST5EDT4,M4.1.0,M10.5.0 Subject: Re: . . . please . . . Neile, I agree whole-heartedly. There has been to much made out of this, and the subject should be put to rest. (I realize this message adds to the amount of mail on this subject, but it will be my last.) I also value the insight Hiranya can give us, and she is probably not thanked enough, so "Thank you, Hiranya" and please continue to offer us bits of wisdom and info on the artist this whole list centers around. - --Chris Moynihan Comp. Sci. Major Bridgewater State College, MA "The Raven" ------------------------------ From: "jeffrey hanson" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 08:50:41 cdt Subject: Jewel imitating others Not wanting to add to the fray, but I remember Jewel saying several songs were influenced by others--in fact, I think that is one of the ways Jewel has learned to play guitar so well, and to write with such versatility. She's even said that every time she meets another guitarist, she tries to learn at least one new thing from them. The song, Sometimes It Be That Way, she has often called her Dylan tribute, and was in response to listening to his song Visions of Jehanna (not sure of spelling--I actually haven't ever heard this song, but would like to.) She's also cited John Prine as a major influence of one of her more humorous songs, Spivy Leeks. So, if she's been quoted as saying My own Private God's Gift to WOmen is influenced by Tori, I'd definitely believe it, though to be honest, in this case, the only similarity I see is the "Men are Pigs" theme. (Please, no flames, I realize Tori's music doesn't all have that theme, but the fact that the new album shows her breast-feeding a pig just seems to add fuel to the fire. I am however a big fan of Tori's--I even dreamt I saw her perform for the new album the other night--in a small club--so small in fact, that her backup singers doubled as waitresses!) Jeff Hanson ------------------------------ From: Karen Villanueva Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:21:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: . . . please . . . On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Neile Graham wrote: > But PLEASE don't insult Hiranya. If she gets enough abuse on the list she > may decide not to stay on the list and we'll lose our closest and most > reliable source of information about Jewel. I greatly value Hiranya's > time and contributions to the list and I hate the thought of her even > having to see the message you just posted. > > --Neile I agree with Neile 100% on this one! Hiranya, we appreciate your efforts to keep this list so well-informed!! Please don't take hostile messages as the feeling of the whole list... Karen ------------------------------ From: Gerald John Cho Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:58:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: YWMFM cd single I have an extra copy of YWMFM and would like to give it away to someone on this list. My question to all of you is how should I go about doing this? I was thinking maybe one of the resident jewel experts could provide a jewel trivia question and the person who correctly answers gets the cd. Any other ideas? cheers, Gerald ------------------------------ From: "Ken Winchenbach" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:47:21 +0000 Subject: JEWEL: Lost First Sentences two is often missing from my Jewel messages. I think it only happens on the mailing list. Is this something that can be fixed, does the owner know about this? <> Ken Winchenbach walden@bluefin.net "You must live as you think, or sooner or later you will think as you live." ------------------------------ From: "SEGAL,CRAIG JOSEPH,MR" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:01:27 EST Subject: X-Mailer: MUSIC/SP V4.1.0 I think Kerry has way to much time on her hands. I don't appreciate having to read her bitchy and complaisant letters. Adam brtk@musicb.mcgill.ca ------------------------------ From: "jeffrey hanson" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 13:13:45 cdt Subject: Re: YWMFM cd single Well, I'd be happy to supply a question--if I could also answer it! I've been looking for a copy of that myself. Good luck giving it away. (Hint: Whatever you do, don't ask how tall she is!) Jeff Hanson ------------------------------ From: teffta@crypt.erie.ge.com (Andrew R. Tefft) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:58:37 -0500 Subject: Re: JEWEL: Lost First Sentences Just wondering if I'm the only one that finds the first line or > > two is often missing from my Jewel messages. I think it only happens > on the mailing list. Is this something that can be fixed, does the > owner know about this? They are not missing, but the first line seems to be being sucked up into the headers, as if the remailer is deleting the blank line between the headers and the body of the message (actually forgetting to insert it). To prevent this just insert a couple extra blank lines at the beginning of your message. I do it typically out of habit anyhow. ------------------------------ From: med12@cornell.edu (Mike) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:40:02 -0500 Subject: Re: YWMFM cd single >I have an extra copy of YWMFM and would like to give it away to >someone on this list. My question to all of you is how should I go about >doing this? >I was thinking maybe one of the resident jewel experts could >provide a jewel trivia question and the person who correctly answers gets >the cd. Any other ideas? > >cheers, >Gerald I think the best idea is to let us all try to bribe you. But, if you want to give it away... that's really nice. hmmm... you could put all the names in a hat and pick at random, or give it to someone who has the same favorite jewel song as you, or from whoever writes the best explanation of their love for Jewel. If wwe sent them all to the list, we could not only have the contest, but then we could send them to Jewel. You could consult a Ouija board or examine the coffeee stains left in the bottom of a mug. There's lots of options and I hope which ever one you decide on results in me getting that cd. Have Fun, Mike! ------------------------------ From: bpugh@accesscom.net Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 14:50 CST Subject: please listen Dear "Angels", I have a plea to make to everyone on the list. Please lets not let this list slide into oblivion. It seems lately, that all the mailers are either arguing, yelling, repremanding, or just being plain disagreeable. Now I'm not a founding memeber (in fact I have only been on the list for a few weeks), and I've only sent two mailers in. But I enjoy reading the comments and little stories. I haven't gotten a chance to see Jewel yet(for those of you that remember I sent in the comment about misssing her, "Bitter Brendan"), but when I read all the stories about the rest of you going to the shows and metting Jewel, I felt like an obserever in the crowd. Now maybe it is because I've had a bad day today and I was counting on today's list to cheer me up, but I feel even worse. I'm not saying we can't have contradictory views, in fact if we all had the same opinions about everything the list would be boring. But when I read about people dropping out of the list because they are just frustrated with the way the list is going, it is obvious we have taken a wrong turn somewhere and have gone too far. So please lets go back to a group of supportive, caring friends with a common intrest. An intrest that goes beyond enjoying Jewel and her music, an intrest in music, art, and the beauty that is possible in this world when someone takes the time to point it out. Thank you for taking the time to read this. Please just remember to keep smiling. Brendan. -"George promised to be good, but it's easy for little monkeys to forget." P.S. Hey Gerald, if you can't decide who to give the cd to, you can give it to me and I'll decide. Yeah, just give it to me for safe keeping, yeah that's it safe keeping, yeah that's the ticket. ------------------------------ End of jewel-digest V1 #27 **************************