From: owner-jewel-digest@smoe.org (jewel-digest) To: jewel-digest@smoe.org Subject: jewel-digest V3 #86 Reply-To: jewel@smoe.org Sender: owner-jewel-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-jewel-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk jewel-digest Wednesday, February 4 1998 Volume 03 : Number 086 * If you wish to unsubscribe, send an email to jewel-digest-request@smoe.org * with ONLY the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * For the latest information on Jewel tour dates, go to: * http://jewel.zoonation.com and click on "TOUR" * OR * go to the OFFICIAL Jewel home page at http://www.jeweljk.com * and go to the "What, When, Where" section * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: jewel-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. Today's Subjects: ----------------- re: does jewel really care for her fans? ["John M. P. Athayde" ] Jewel's popularity [Thomas A Baas ] Quick Response to Mr BB (aka Change vs Selling Out) [Sean Hooks Subject: re: does jewel really care for her fans? Bohua Yu wrote: > Does Jewel really care for her fans? I don't think so. On the Rosie > Show the other day, when Rosie as her what is her web site, she start to > get annoyed by people love her so much. If you have the tape just check > it out. She was cool. But now she is like all the other stars, take > for granted. out of lurkdom... look at it from her perspective. her life as she knew it was over. she can't walk to the grocery store if she wanted to. no escape. no solitude. chances are that everywhere she goes, someone will recognize her. how great it is to be a rock and roll star seriously. it's got to be difficult and it's got to be enjoyable at the same time, however, how would all of you feel if you woke up and couldn't do your normal routine and couldn't step outside for fear of people. and no matter how big your ego (no inference intended) you can only talk about yourself for so long... well, that's my opinion. take it or leave it. flames to me, logical discussion to the list. And if you are in the DC area, support local music - my band is opening at the Bayou in Georgetown for Agents of Good Roots and Jump Little Children on 2-14 (yeah, i know, valentines day)... anyways. John M. P. Athayde bobo@list.org "In the roaring traffic's boom, in the silence of my lonely room, I think of you ... night and day..." - Cole Porter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:42:26 -0600 (CST) From: Thomas A Baas Subject: Jewel's attitude Okay...I saw Leno & I saw Rosie...this talk of Jewel becoming conceited is totally out of proportion...what did she say that would make any indication at all that she was mocking her fans?! That remark about the webpage ("jewel, jewel, & more jewel...") was nothing at all deragatory towards her fans...if anything, maybe she's humbly mocking the height of her popularity (an indication of humbleness, NOT conceitedness)...there is NO mockery towards the fans whatsoever there. If you read her EDA-directed e-mail that Mike so kindly forwards to the digest, you can tell how much she appreciates us. My respect for her has only elevated with the Leno & Rosie appearances, and this is for 2 reasons: 1) her ability to put new light on a song (FG) that has been over-played & stuff by simply put different vocal inflection & emotional emphasis in different ways on different lines proves that her heart is really still in the song, no matter how many times she's sung it. On Leno, she seemed ready to cry upon certain lines in the song. 2) her sense of humor & graceful delivery...her honesty & integrity! That sarcastic stuff about how she "misses" not eating all the time & haying..."Hell, no!" She has every right to enjoy her success. You've come a long way, baby! love, Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:09:28 -0600 (CST) From: Thomas A Baas Subject: Jewel's popularity Let's let Jewel decide whether or not her popularity is a "bad thing"...besides where's this thick line between "good" & "bad"? She deserves everything she's worked for. Let her enjoy it. She's fought hard to overcome being poor & living in a van & not eating much...and as she told the crowd when I saw her in Milwaukee: Don't give up. If I made it this far, so can anyone of you. Hold onto your dreams (paraphrased). We've seen how popularity can change artists' image...look at U2 & Pearl Jam...artists do what they have to do...it's their music...our choice is whether or not we enjoy it & can relate to its integrity...that's what makes her sensitive...she feels...just like us...and that's why we love her. Is happiness really conceitedness? - -Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 14:09:14 -0500 (EST) From: Sean Hooks Subject: Quick Response to Mr BB (aka Change vs Selling Out) Mr BB's post about resistance to change in artistry by the hardcore fan base of a musician is a very valid one. Jewel is going to change. Hopefully the change will be positive, for the better, growth. Look at Dylan, Springsteen, Tracy Chapman, Pearl Jam, Neil Young etc; all artist's who's musical stylings have changed sugnificantly over the years, but their core message and core beliefs have not. To see Jewel grow and change as they have is a welcome thing. But one must beware Mr BB (and everyone else) that Jewel does not sell out or drastically change the core of her music. By this I mean changing to fit the trend in muic at the time, ie: artists who are all of a sudden fooling around with electronica and ska now that it's popular, the grunge bandwagon in the early 90s, synth pop during the 80s, and of course that demon of all demons Disco during the 70s. We also don't want Jewel changing her image to suit the mainstream, which is why people (myself included) seem to be a little ticked about her transformation from earthy/hippie girl into make-up and dresses glamour queen. This problem has plagued some other otherwise extremely influential and important artist and has moved from just their image, on to affect negatively the quality of the music they are putting out. Two prime examples of this phenomenon are U2 and REM, both of whose last two albums have been considerably inferior to their previous works. (And let's have hardcore fans of those groups responding that they haven't 'cause they have, anyone who things Pop and Zooropa are as good as War and The Joshua Tree or that Monster holds a candle to Document, Out of Time, or Murmur is a few sandwiches short of a pancake). This brings we to my next point. As bad and as hurtful as overcriticizing Jewel and suppressing Jewel's growth is, it is just as harmful to accept everything she does and say, "Oh, that's so great just because it's Jewel. Look, I'm a huge Springsteen, but "57 Channels and Nothin On" makes me wince. The same goes for Dylan's born again christian phase or Neil Young's synth experiments. Do not be afraid to criticize Jewel. The Batman and Robin version of Foolish Games for example, is pretty bad in my opinion. It is severely lacking in power compared to the album version or the extremely emotive version of that song. In the B and R radio/video version the song is two quaint, not the bitter building rage that it truly is. All the venom is missing form lines like "Guess I've mistaken you for somebody else, somebody who gave a damn, someone more like myself." In concert with these words Jewel comes across as an inferno, spitefully daring any man to compare to her high standards, on the radio it's a plaintive, submissive, sing-songy overlookable line. That's just an example. So in conclusion, Mr BB is right, let's not try and hold Jewel back and keep her from growing, but also, let's not just be acceptant of anything she puts out if it is in fact musically inferior to her previous efforts. Later, Sean Hooks ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:59:51 -0800 (PST) From: Raymond Wong Subject: Re: What Jewel's popularity has done(aka: I called it) You know, I was wondering why Sean hadn't posted yet about this, it seems like he used to post a lot more on his belief that fame is a bad thing, etc... For those off you new to the list, realize that the "Jewel is getting stuck up, her fame is changing her" thread has come up again and again; each time she's gotten a bit more popular, some of the "old fans" feel they've lost a little more of that personal touch. Sean Hooks wrote: > This is an old message that I posted to the list back in the day, see if > any of my prognosticating has turned out to be accurate. Okay, while we're at it, we can see how much was prediction and how much was telling us the value of the outcomes. > Jewel's popularity is a bad thing > I've waxed philosphic on this trend before but the way people on the > digest are talking, I don't think you realize what you are setting > yourselves up for. Jewel on MTV is a bad thing(although I love the song > Quiet Warrior and was impressed with the performance). Jewel reaching Okay, so far you had said you thought she was headed in the wrong direction, this was the old context of events. I'll accept she was on MTV, and I'll accept that a lot of the fans at the time had no idea what was to come. :) I don't accept that things were going badly. > number one on the VH1 countdown would be a bad thing. Letterman > appearances and the like are bad things. It's easy to get excited about So it's happened, more than once, but there's no reason to accept that it was a bad thing. > your favorite artist getting some play and popularity, but be careful what > you wish for. I've seen many a legitimate young artist get turned into a > one-hit wonder by such behavior, or worse, a superstar. I don't think Well, I could argue that many "one-hit wonders" have continued on in their music careers, playing the very small venues (bars, coffee houses, et al) that Sean was advocating for Jewel, but that's the less applicable part of his choice here, since she's far closer to his other fear, a superstar. Considering this presents the two extremes of popularity which she could have achieved, I'd have to say it was more pontification than prognostication. :) > Jewel wants to be super-popular ala Madonna, Alannis, Mariah, Whitney. She Well, she certainly never expected it, and she's never tried to be the media sensation any of them were, but still no predictions... > complained incessently about how Sean Penn couldn't even walk down the > street without being mobbed and how just being with him was very > intimidating and scary for a girl from Alaska. Is that what we want for Again, true, but where's the prediction? Anyone caught any news reports that she tried to go for a walk and couldn't? > her? Do you want to see her at arenas or small clubs and venues? Do you A value question. Personally, I'd love some chances to see her at small clubs and venues instead of arenas, like when she shows up at Rugburns' shows, which, come to think of it, she still does... > want another Jewelstock at a place like the Bearsville Theatre? If so, you 2 questions here, Sean, that I don't know that any of us caught you on the first time, either. Do we want another Jewelstock? I don't know that there could EVER be another Jewelstock. There really was an innocence that only comes with having done something you've never done before. Another free show for the fans, in thanks for support, at a place like the Bearsville Theatre? Sure, that'd be nice, but it would never be Jewelstock again. > can't want her to be popular. You can't have your cake and eat it too. So we come back to the question of evaluation, not of prediction. Sean has assumed that popularity is a bad thing, and has given some examples and a bit of explanation why, but it's not enough. There's still nothing that makes fame completely bad, only that some bad experiences have happened after some people have gotten popular. This isn't enough to say that it has to be bad, though, only that it could be. To prove by example that fame must be bad, it is not enough to find examples where fame was bad, there must be a lack of exceptions, or Jewel could be one of those exceptions. > WWSYS is one of my favorite Jewel songs but I've been hearing it for a > year and a half, I hear it every day, see the video every day, if I'm > watching TV or listening to the radio. And I change the channel as > soon as possible. That opening bass riff actually hurts my ears at this > point as I shun from the song that made me a Jewel fan. I know there are So the dedicated fans get tired of the most popular stuff. SO? I know people who've been Billy Joel fans since the 1970s, and HATE all of his most popular stuff. They got tired of hearing those, but still love each and every album, and still have favorites on each one. Is either of our experiences proof? No, they're personal testimony, that's all. > people out there going, "well, he's just selfish and doesn't want what's > best for our Jewel." Wrong. I care about Jewel's future a lot. The fact Of this I have no question. Sean is a loyal and dedicated fan, he wants only good things for Jewel. What I question is his wisdom. :) You can learn every fact known to modern humanity and still not understand anything. > that Pieces of You is a very radio unfriendly folk album and still it > went gold scares the hell out of me. The next album could be disastruous. Okay, here's a prediction, though A) the second album has yet to happen, and B) "disastrous" could still mean different things to different people. > Atlantic is gonna promote it a lot more, and the songs from what I gather, > are gonna be much more upbeat and radio friendly. Not good things. I want Bad if you don't want her popular, but if you were to accept the possibility that being popular isn't always bad, there's only a question of personal preference. Some of the people here like Jewel's more upbeat numbers. Some people would be just as tired of hearing the same slow acoustic sounds for another album. That would actually make it a good thing, for those who want to see her evolve as an artist, if she can make upbeat songs they like. Radio friendly has been redefined by Jewel, and doesn't mean anything without accepting assumptions of value again. Unless you want songs that are so long they can't fit any commercials in during the hour, there's no such animal. :) > to tell everyone how great she is. I want to play my tapes for all > my friends. I want to tell everyone that she is the greatest thing since > sliced bread and how her concerts are mind blowing emotionally moving > experiences. But I don't. I contain myself, takes a lot of will power. But Examples of self denial, but still no proof that fame is bad. > I know it's for the best. I have a couple of friends who are into her and Saying it's so again, but that doesn't make it so. > will go to the concerts with me, that's all I need. So, just again, be > careful what you wish for. Jewel will be corrupted by popularity not > helped by it. Please let WWSYS be her last hit radio/video for at least So, we come to the possibility of corruption, which is as close as we've gotten to prognosticating. This time, we have an admission on Leno that she's finding the music scene "redundant," though it's not clear if that's the exact work she meant, so much as the one she chose on the spot, meaning there may be a connotation she didn't intend. Then there's the Rosie appearance. Gee, she seemed like she didn't want to be there... Has anyone ever had a bad day? A lot of us non-famous people have them too, and if you were to take a video camera to some 5 minute section of our lives, things might not seem so good. The soundbites aren't enough to show that Jewel's become corrupted, though they ARE enough to show that here, the FANS have been corrupted, getting so used to seeing her life in 5 minute chunks that they forget that's not all she is. > ten years. Look at Tracy Chapman, she has had the perfect career. Ten Well, I could accept "A" perfect career, though I'd want her to say she's been happy the whole time, or it's meaningless. > years ago in 86 Fast Car came out. Then she disappeared to the Z100 MTV > world and stayed true to her roots audience. Then ten years down the road > she comes back to the top 40 billboard MTV pop radio world with Give ME > One Reason. That should be our model. TV appearances and soundtracks and Sean, give ME one reason that's the only good way to go. If Jewel could have been happy that way, that might have been the way, but there was no indication that's what she'd wanted. Even if she had given up this course long ago and taken your advice, she might be miserable, wondering if she could have changed more people's lives, made more of a difference by going another way. Everyone must follow the calling of their heart, there is no other true path. > movies and videos and surfrider specials and VH1 duets are not necessary Okay, not necessary... of course, any public appearances AT ALL are not necessary in the same way. She could have become a studio hermit like Barbra Streisand by now, making only minimal appearances. > anymore. She's popular enough, stop promoting yourself Jewel, we wanna see > you, not a speck of blonde hair that I have to strain to see from the > 1500th row. I don't wanna be able able to say I knew her when, I want to > know her now continuously. I am not trying to stunt her artistic growth, Well, if by "know," all you meant was that you could see her up close sometimes, you might have a point, but that's still not proof. I'm trying to not bring up the same counter-example I used the first time, but the more I try to view the article from a fresh perspective, the more the same thing becomes painfully obvious, which is that this is all just a question of perception. Sean has concluded that fame is bad, hence all he sees reinforces that position. Exceptions are interpreted as having some other reason, or ignored. Someone please try this. Imagine back to 1987, and move forward in time, to 1988, 1989, even head into 1990 and 1991. Can someone tell me if anyone was that much more popular and famous than another young Atlantic recording "star," Debbie Gibson at the time? (side note: as a credited artist she's always been listed as Deborah Gibson, but her stage name at the time was Debbie Gibson, hence I use the historical stage name) She sold 10 million records worldwide, which is probably less than Jewel, or the Spice Girls, managed with just the first album, but at the time it was a major feat. She was without question Atlantic's biggest money maker during those years. How many people here can think of her last "hit" release? Regardless of whether you like her music, she's still out there, and more "reachable" than ever. She stops after shows and talks to her fans more than I ever managed to talk to Jewel. Is Jewel more popular now than Deb was then? Probably. That doesn't change the issue, though. She was as famous as she could have been during those years, and yet she still managed to take time out for her fans, and now that she has time again, she does make small appearances. But if Jewel were still playing coffee houses and other small venues around the country, how long would you have to wait before you were able to see her again? Probably a few more years. If, in that much more time, Jewel's popularity still hasn't waned, I might be more willing to consider it a loss of some experience for us. So far, though, her popularity hasn't done any more to keep me from her than simple geography would have. > her message is an important one that should be heard, but the more people > that hear the message in the pop sell-out context, the more that miss the As opposed to never hearing the message at all. The difference is that if 20,000 people hear the message in a "sell-out" context, there's at least a remote chance some of them will get it. If they hadn't heard it, they might never get it. How many people at those coffeehouses got the message who hadn't already heard it from her before? > point. Go ahead, flame away, just make sure you don't regret it when I'm > saying told you so a couple months or a year or two down the road when Well, you're saying you told us so, but you still haven't actually said anything. > this digest has thousands of members and events like Jewelstock are Okay, almost true, we've got over a thousand, though we haven't reached the plural yet. I've already indicated my belief about Jewelstock. > impossible and she won't be putting her arm around any of you or taking Well, how about her last drop-in on someone else's gig? Anyone get an arm? :) > pictures or signing autographs because she's scared of stalkers, the > press, and fame/the media in general. Heck, that's your own paranoia talking, Sean. I've followed artists with real stalkers after them, and while it might have prevented an individual session or two, any artist who wanted to talk to the fans still found a way to. The other parts are up to the artist, and how [s]he chooses to view the music business in general, there's nothing inherently bad about it. > Sorry if that sounded bitter, just hate to lose something that I care > about. Something we agree on! But the old "if you love something, set it free..." is really applicable. There's no way to "hang onto" what Jewel has been. People change, one way or another. All you can really do is remember to hold every moment in your heart. Make sure every second of joy isn't lost because you're too busy worrying about not getting another. Ray Wong PO BOX 6163 negativl@best.com, negativl@netcom.com Hayward, CA 94540-6163 Member #11537, Deborah Gibson International Fan Club Co-Founder and Charter Member, Sutton Foster International Fan Club ------------------------------ End of jewel-digest V3 #86 **************************